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View Full Version : I looooove Martina but since she has come back I've noticed....


selesfan1
Mar 17th, 2006, 09:52 PM
her game isn't as exciting to watch anymore.

I guess this is what I mean. When she was winning slams, number 1 etc. her game dominated in other words, she did what she wanted with her game to the other players. Now, by just watching I get the feeling she kind of has a more defensive brand of tennis. Like she has to play this way to get herself out of trouble , not play thsi way because she can or wants to. In the last 3 matches, including today you have similar stats back from 2000, 2001, etc. as far as unforced errors, service percentages but you don't see her beating players with her game but rather it's more like she's saving herself with her game. Am I just crazy or has anyone noticed this as well.

I just want to quickly reiterate I am not bashing Martina. She is one of 2 reasons i got into tennis. I saw her play Monica at Family Circle cup in 1997 and was wowed by both. I am glad to see her back as she was my first celebrity crush. I was only 13 at the time and she just seemed so cool that i wanted to put blue streaks in my hair like she did. I am glad she is back and hopes she starts winning big events again with her smart tennis.

RR-87
Mar 17th, 2006, 09:56 PM
Modern tennis is much powerfull than in Hingis's era, so Marti is trying to destroy her opponent game, to make her to do one mistake, then another and finally player gives up. I think it's clever tactic from Martina and it reminds me Myskina three-four years ago

SvetaPleaseWin.
Mar 18th, 2006, 12:05 AM
i only really got into tennis after hingis had retired and i was expecting more of a schnyder style game from hingis than the sugiyama style she currently has.

im not insulting her-her tactics seem to be working but i just thought her matches would be a bit more interesting

kaki
Mar 18th, 2006, 11:23 AM
I saw her playing yesterday and what I have to say is that I wasn't impressed at all by her game,she didn't use much variety like she used to.

thrust
Mar 18th, 2006, 11:47 AM
The way Maria was hitting the ball yesterday, few players would have the time or power to respond the way they would like to. Martina needs a stronger serve to get into the top 5. She is, I think, a sure top ten in the near future.

dinhd82
Mar 18th, 2006, 12:02 PM
You cannot be playing the game she played years ago, although it was a thing of beauty it would be killed with today's power. Martina is trying a different approach and she's improving so I'm sorry you feel that way, Martina is beating a lot of players this way so I'm happy for her. Only thing is she needs to quit hitting those short in the court shots and really work on her serve for real!!!

hdfb
Mar 18th, 2006, 12:09 PM
I didn't see the match, but I'd agree with thrust. I saw all Martina's matches AO, she was by far the most entertaining and had the most variety.

mike/topgun
Mar 18th, 2006, 01:05 PM
Martina was outplayed by Masha. Masha played great, copied Davenports tactics from 98-2001. She reminded the Lindsay Davenport from 98 USO or 2000 AO when the American bashed Martina. Hingis' never really had a tactic to overpower those opponents who played as well as Maria did yesterday, who could step in and dictate their own pace, style and precise.End of the story. The serve needs to ger better though to avoid those kinda situations like the one which was in the first set up to 5-1 in Marias favour.

Veenut
Mar 18th, 2006, 02:00 PM
Her game is same ole, same ole to me and not one that I enjoy either. Getting balls back and basically relying on your opponents errors to win is a yawn for me. Of course when the big hitters have off days and make lots of unforced errors her chances to win increases but if they are playing well her chances evaporates quickly. Some people enjoy this style of play and good for them but I enjoy those who dictate play and create winning shots.

Hingis style of play cannot consistently win against the big hitters. She will get occasional wins but I just can't envision her defeating 3-4 big hitters consecutively to win a major. She would need the help of others to take out some and clear the path for her. She can win, but she would need the help of others to clear the path for her.

Ms Tracy Austin
Mar 18th, 2006, 02:10 PM
her game isn't as exciting to watch anymore.

I guess this is what I mean. When she was winning slams, number 1 etc. her game dominated in other words, she did what she wanted with her game to the other players. Now, by just watching I get the feeling she kind of has a more defensive brand of tennis. Like she has to play this way to get herself out of trouble , not play thsi way because she can or wants to. In the last 3 matches, including today you have similar stats back from 2000, 2001, etc. as far as unforced errors, service percentages but you don't see her beating players with her game but rather it's more like she's saving herself with her game. Am I just crazy or has anyone noticed this as well.



I agree with you 100%. Davenport beat herself, when she hit the ball in in the second set you saw what happened. The match versus Safina put me to sleep and I turned it off, and the match versus Sharapova was only mildly entertaining. Hingis will only be fun to watch when she is playing someone that she can toy with, running them around, hitting drop shots and lobs, making them look silly. I also noticed during the Davenport match there were no dropshots by Martina, because she rarely had the time or comfort to do so... a sign of how the game has changed since she left.

:wavey:

-VSR-
Mar 18th, 2006, 02:11 PM
I like watching her play.

crazillo
Mar 18th, 2006, 02:47 PM
I also think that variety like she had before simply isn't enough any more. She still has her skills, but she knows that other things have become more important. Other skill players became problems the last few years (Farina-Elia, Martinez, Maleeva) and I guess Martina saw that, too.

gugak
Mar 18th, 2006, 03:11 PM
I agree with you. With her current style of play, she can't beat the top players without their help. If she wants to dominate the field again she has to be more aggressive.

spencercarlos
Mar 18th, 2006, 03:43 PM
her game isn't as exciting to watch anymore.

I guess this is what I mean. When she was winning slams, number 1 etc. her game dominated in other words, she did what she wanted with her game to the other players. Now, by just watching I get the feeling she kind of has a more defensive brand of tennis. Like she has to play this way to get herself out of trouble , not play thsi way because she can or wants to. In the last 3 matches, including today you have similar stats back from 2000, 2001, etc. as far as unforced errors, service percentages but you don't see her beating players with her game but rather it's more like she's saving herself with her game. Am I just crazy or has anyone noticed this as well.

I just want to quickly reiterate I am not bashing Martina. She is one of 2 reasons i got into tennis. I saw her play Monica at Family Circle cup in 1997 and was wowed by both. I am glad to see her back as she was my first celebrity crush. I was only 13 at the time and she just seemed so cool that i wanted to put blue streaks in my hair like she did. I am glad she is back and hopes she starts winning big events again with her smart tennis.
It depends on the day, the day she beat Sharapova at Tokio she had more winners and fewer errors than Maria. Maria is just playing really well right now, you can´t expect Martina, a non power player, who retired for 3 years, to comeback and handle the power the way she used to (2000-2001). She is doing extremly well, ranked in the top 25 already with just 7 tournaments, its incredible.
Beating a fair share of power players and two top ten players along the way, this just in 2 and half months of play. Do people remmember when Venus Williams went blank in top ten wins for more than a year from 2004-2005?.... I think she is doing pretty well, of course, she will need to change a couple of things, and be more agressive, and incorporate some net play in a consistent basis to her game (she is been very successful at net on this comeback).
Honestly i love to watch her, but surely yesterday´s match was really bad for her, only producing 8 winners, its not that good. But im sure she will work on that, she knows that if she wants to beat this top players, she will have to produce. We´ll see.

spencercarlos
Mar 18th, 2006, 03:48 PM
I also think that variety like she had before simply isn't enough any more. She still has her skills, but she knows that other things have become more important. Other skill players became problems the last few years (Farina-Elia, Martinez, Maleeva) and I guess Martina saw that, too.
Dont even try to put this players on the same category as Martina.
Martina used to overpowers this players.. enough said.
Martina has shown that her game is still competitive, still not GS winning tennis form of course, but she has shown already with 7 tournaments that her game still makes some impact. 5th ranked player in the world in the race for year, is way better than expected for her... game .. which people always said was old and not able to compete today..

spencercarlos
Mar 18th, 2006, 03:51 PM
Martina was outplayed by Masha. Masha played great, copied Davenports tactics from 98-2001. She reminded the Lindsay Davenport from 98 USO or 2000 AO when the American bashed Martina. Hingis' never really had a tactic to overpower those opponents who played as well as Maria did yesterday, who could step in and dictate their own pace, style and precise.End of the story. The serve needs to ger better though to avoid those kinda situations like the one which was in the first set up to 5-1 in Marias favour.
When Masha is on she can be very tough to play against, because she hits so hard, and serves well too, i think Martina can lose to a player playing this way, is very understanable.
Serena lost like that at the Wimbledon final, Masha made her look really bad. Lindsay has been dominated in her meetings with Masha.

wally1
Mar 18th, 2006, 04:00 PM
I tend to agree with the thread starter. In her comeback (and the latter part of her "first" career) I get the feeling the much vaunted variey in Hingis' game is a case of the Emperors new clothes, and a hangover from when she first appeared on the tour. Now she wins by consistency more than anything else. The very odd drop shot in a sea of baseline rallies with hardly any trips to the net doesn't equal great variety in my book...

spencercarlos
Mar 18th, 2006, 04:13 PM
Now she wins by consistency more than anything else. The very odd drop shot in a sea of baseline rallies with hardly any trips to the net doesn't equal great variety in my book...
First she is a consistent player, a defensive player, who of course relies on that to win matches. I think she already has realized where she is, the question is where she wants to be... and if that top is her goal, she will have to add a more agressive attitude in her matches. But...
To deny that she has a variety game is :retard:
She and Henin are the only ones to employ different shots, really well at any time. Great net play, great touch, great defensive playm slices.. i mean the whole package, that variety is the one that has kept Martina far in tournaments.

pepsigal
Mar 18th, 2006, 04:23 PM
well, she's not the one to blame ... seriously

Rachel_
Mar 18th, 2006, 04:36 PM
Against accomplished top 10 players Marti is playing out of her comfort zone being forced to run forever and hit big.

HOWEVER Marti is probably the only player that can let these big guns beat themselves with her immaculate consistency.

As she is the only player on the tour that can play a set of tennis without making an unforced error and that in itself is a very big advantage as it makes the opponent i've got to go for the lines to beat her. Hence play more low percentage shots and make more errors.

wally1
Mar 18th, 2006, 04:36 PM
First she is a consistent player, a defensive player, who of course relies on that to win matches. I think she already has realized where she is, the question is where she wants to be... and if that top is her goal, she will have to add a more agressive attitude in her matches. But...
To deny that she has a variety game is :retard:
She and Henin are the only ones to employ different shots, really well at any time. Great net play, great touch, great defensive playm slices.. i mean the whole package, that variety is the one that has kept Martina far in tournaments.How often did Hingis go to the net against Sharapova? Not a lot I'll bet... Watching that match I thought Sharapova had just as much variety as Hings - almost the only time Hingis played a slice was as a defensive shot in an attempt to stay in the rally. Anyway, don't get me wrong, I like Hingis as a player, but I think the variety she plays with is exaggerated...

pla
Mar 18th, 2006, 05:10 PM
I was amazed by yesterday's match, the way Martina played it. She has couple of games where she really showed how she can play but it wasn't there all the time. And Maria played really well, that backhand of hers was on fire forcing Martina to deffend too much, and she doesn't like that.

I was surprised by her tactics yesterday to say the least.

And to come back to the thread-startes's thoughts. She does use her variety but not all the time, not against all the playes. And during the AO is was as fantastic to watch her as before. Let's wait for the slow-courts to come and we'll see there.

MisterQ
Mar 18th, 2006, 05:22 PM
I think it depends on her opponent. She will do what she thinks she needs to do to win. If she's pinned to the baseline by a hard-hitter like Davenport, and clever counterpunching is the way to win, she'll do that. There have been other matches since her comeback (vs. Zvonareva, for example) where she did indeed toy with her opponent and use the full court like she often used to.

barmaid
Mar 18th, 2006, 05:25 PM
Martina's game is "still a work in progress"....she's had to do a lot of adapting in order to compete against the power hitters. Since her comeback, she's been successful as her 20 victories lead the pack of WTA players at the moment but still much more work to do....including that serve...more aggressive play...her defence is excellent but needs to play more offensively...she has yet to become "match tough"....but rather than regressing...she is still improving and because of all the changes that she's had to make in her game...it will take time for it to "jell" and be successful enough to finally win tournaments! :hearts: :worship:

barmaid:wavey:

Paldias
Mar 18th, 2006, 05:28 PM
I disagree. I never liked Martina before this but now I actually find her exciting. She plays so intelligently and I find it facisnating when for the last 3/4 years we've seen bang-bang-winner and now all of a sudden some 'girl' who has been retired for 3 years comes back and starts to beat the bang-bang-winner girls!

:banana:

spencercarlos
Mar 19th, 2006, 04:07 AM
How often did Hingis go to the net against Sharapova? Not a lot I'll bet... Watching that match I thought Sharapova had just as much variety as Hings - almost the only time Hingis played a slice was as a defensive shot in an attempt to stay in the rally. Anyway, don't get me wrong, I like Hingis as a player, but I think the variety she plays with is exaggerated...
My point is that she defends well, she can put away balls, has touch at the net, can hit overheads, and if we talk about spins, she can hit any shot in the book and does it really well, not everybody in the womens game can. In fact there are just two or three more players that can play with such variety.. (Mauresmo and Henin are the ones that come to my mind right now).
It becomes a different thing when you are being overpowered like that, and have no chance to employ that variety, and lot less have the chance to get into the net while you are being pushed backwards, with hard, deep, penetrating shots.
So i don't understand where do you base your argument to say Hingis has no variety.

spencercarlos
Mar 19th, 2006, 04:15 AM
I disagree. I never liked Martina before this but now I actually find her exciting. She plays so intelligently and I find it facisnating when for the last 3/4 years we've seen bang-bang-winner and now all of a sudden some 'girl' who has been retired for 3 years comes back and starts to beat the bang-bang-winner girls!

:banana:
I can't agree much better, Martina has added that spark that Womens tennis was lacking pretty much since 1998-1999 when you had two generations competing against eachother.
Pretty much since 2003 when Seles, Hingis and Anna went out, then the WS injuries, then 2004 again injuries or players coming back from them, 2005 the same, no one is dominating at the moment, but also no one has been able to compete for a year without an injury.
Hingis a former world number who "essensially" retired because power tennis was just too much for her, comesback and she proves everbody that she still has some in the tank, and i feel Martina is the player that no one wants to face, pretty much as she has beaten seeded players at will pretty much since her first event until now. They know Martina won't overpower them, but they know that she won't give anything away either.

jojoseph
Mar 19th, 2006, 04:16 AM
I hadn't been a fan of women's tennis since Monica was forced out 'til I seen Martina first came on the tour. You gotta remember that players do in fact age. She's not as young as she once was so her game is gonna be a lil different.

padawanpot
Mar 19th, 2006, 04:22 AM
Although I love her variety, you can't live and die by it. Variety is not a complete game. I agree with whoever said that Martina would win big games because of her abilities but unless she adjusts more than she already has I don't see her dominating or even breaking into the top5. She can't just be smart and competetive she needs to be ruthless too.

spencercarlos
Mar 19th, 2006, 04:44 AM
Although I love her variety, you can't live and die by it. Variety is not a complete game. I agree with whoever said that Martina would win big games because of her abilities but unless she adjusts more than she already has I don't see her dominating or even breaking into the top5. She can't just be smart and competetive she needs to be ruthless too.
You just want a perfect player, i think every player has his own strenghts and weaknesses, and especially someone away from tennis for 3 years, should have a lot wholes in her game, we will see if Hingis can correct, work on them.

Havok
Mar 19th, 2006, 04:56 AM
How often did Hingis go to the net against Sharapova? Not a lot I'll bet... Watching that match I thought Sharapova had just as much variety as Hings - almost the only time Hingis played a slice was as a defensive shot in an attempt to stay in the rally. Anyway, don't get me wrong, I like Hingis as a player, but I think the variety she plays with is exaggerated...

Variety isn't ONLY slicing shots and hitting drop shots :retard:. I think you should start to WATCH what Hingis does on the court. Never does she hit the same ball more than twice. She'll throw you a high toppsin shot to your backhand and the next shot she'll hit is going to be a hard flat shot to your backhand. That's variety in my book, she isn't hitting the same shots over and over again.

I think Martina's game is a breath of fresh air. We've been missing a consistent, smart player who uses her brains on court for a while :o. If Martina had a decent serve she'd hang in there even more with the big hitters, but like many have stated Sharapova was just way too solid in that match and Martina still had chances to at least take a set in that match. She just woke up a bit too late and only really started to move MAria around after the first few games in the 2nd set.

Lulu.
Mar 19th, 2006, 04:56 AM
She doesnt seem to be using variety lately. I wonder why

UDACHi
Mar 19th, 2006, 04:59 AM
I find her to be such a bore.

thomas.chung
Mar 19th, 2006, 06:32 AM
I guess people are still reluctant to give credits to Martina for setting their favorite players on self-destruct. That is the beauty of the game, not just the brute force. It is also very psychological. Right now, I think that Martina is taking a path (or game style in this matter) less taken by other players on the court, and I am anxious to see the result. It may be good, but it may be bad, we will not know and we will have to see.

Right now, i wish to extend this with a poem by Robert Frost "The Road Less Taken"
Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth.

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same.

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

WhatTheDeuce
Mar 19th, 2006, 06:43 AM
Though I can see what the thread starter is saying to a certain extent, I have to say is this:

People need to ease off Martina. :p As Carlos mentioned, she's doing an amazing job coming back so far and as Naldo said, she's really a breath of fresh air even though she can't ALWAYS employ the exact same style/shots as she used to (which isn't her fault). The reason I say she can't ALWAYS do it is because honestly, she CAN when she's not playing someone who whales the ball on every shot like Sharapova. :)

Viva Hingis, keep improving :banana:

Hingie
Mar 19th, 2006, 07:04 AM
her game isn't as exciting to watch anymore.

I guess this is what I mean. When she was winning slams, number 1 etc. her game dominated in other words, she did what she wanted with her game to the other players. Now, by just watching I get the feeling she kind of has a more defensive brand of tennis. Like she has to play this way to get herself out of trouble , not play thsi way because she can or wants to. In the last 3 matches, including today you have similar stats back from 2000, 2001, etc. as far as unforced errors, service percentages but you don't see her beating players with her game but rather it's more like she's saving herself with her game. Am I just crazy or has anyone noticed this as well.

I just want to quickly reiterate I am not bashing Martina. She is one of 2 reasons i got into tennis. I saw her play Monica at Family Circle cup in 1997 and was wowed by both. I am glad to see her back as she was my first celebrity crush. I was only 13 at the time and she just seemed so cool that i wanted to put blue streaks in my hair like she did. I am glad she is back and hopes she starts winning big events again with her smart tennis.

I'm sorry you feel this way.

The fact is the game has become a lot more physical, people are covering the court a lot quicker, many of the top girls let loose on their forehands and backhands. Martina is known for her variety BUT she needs time to execute. It is incredibly difficult for her to push players from side to side when she herself struggles to get to the ball and a lot of time is unbalanced when she makes contact.

However, Martina needs to get her confidence back - i think more so than anything (including improving her serve). When she is confident she does try to dictace from the offset and her attempts at striking the ball early are brilliant. She picks up balls off her feet that are just incredible.

Since her comeback, i have seen glimpses of Martina's magic (a lot during the Tokyo semi), and i have to believe that she will continue to improve and when she does, she will be spending less time counterpunching and more time playing her game.

WhatTheDeuce
Mar 19th, 2006, 07:06 AM
I'm sorry you feel this way.

The fact is the game has become a lot more physical, people are covering the court a lot quicker, many of the top girls let loose on their forehands and backhands. Martina is known for her variety BUT she needs time to execute. It is incredibly difficult for her to push players from side to side when she herself struggles to get to the ball and a lot of time is unbalanced when she makes contact.

However, Martina needs to get her confidence back - i think more so than anything (including improving her serve). When she is confident she does try to dictace from the offset and her attempts at striking the ball early are brilliant. She picks up balls off her feet that are just incredible.

Since her comeback, i have seen glimpses of Martina's magic (a lot during the Tokyo semi), and i have to believe that she will continue to improve and when she does, she will be spending less time counterpunching and more time playing her game.
Good post, I agree. :)

Corswandt
Mar 19th, 2006, 10:34 PM
When she was winning slams, number 1 etc. her game dominated in other words, she did what she wanted with her game to the other players. Now, by just watching I get the feeling she kind of has a more defensive brand of tennis. Like she has to play this way to get herself out of trouble , not play thsi way because she can or wants to. In the last 3 matches, including today you have similar stats back from 2000, 2001, etc. as far as unforced errors, service percentages but you don't see her beating players with her game but rather it's more like she's saving herself with her game. Am I just crazy or has anyone noticed this as well.

i only really got into tennis after hingis had retired and i was expecting more of a schnyder style game from hingis than the sugiyama style she currently has.

In her comeback (and the latter part of her "first" career) I get the feeling the much vaunted variey in Hingis' game is a case of the Emperors new clothes, and a hangover from when she first appeared on the tour. Now she wins by consistency more than anything else. The very odd drop shot in a sea of baseline rallies with hardly any trips to the net doesn't equal great variety in my book...

I agree with all these assessments, but IMO the post that I placed in bold above has hit the nail on the head. Since her comeback, Hingis has prospered by becoming the Tour's finest retriever. It's actually to her credit that she has realized what she could do in today's tennis with her game and wisely changed her style and rebuilt it around her defensive consistency. But contrary to the claims of the pundits, Hingis hasn't brought anything new to the Tour in terms of touch and shot variety. I'm not saying that Hingis is just a more talented Smashnova, but the way she's been playing, people who haven't seen her play back in the late 1990's might be forgiven for thinking so.

But the main reason for this was also stated on this thread:

The way Maria was hitting the ball yesterday, few players would have the time or power to respond the way they would like to.

The problem with playing against heavy hitters is that they dictate play, take control of points, and seldom give less powerful players time and room to deploy any variety in play. The only thing players like Hingis can do against someone with the firepower of Masha or Davenport is to dig in, return as many shots as possible, and wait for the best.

SAEKeithSerena
Mar 19th, 2006, 10:38 PM
i beg to differ. i think it's sooo exciting because she's playing her old rivalries, new ones (i.e. maria s.), and her comeback is just going so great so far...

Andy.
Mar 19th, 2006, 10:40 PM
She was using more variety and all court play in Australia and it was great to watch and in her last few matches i have seen in Dubai and IW she looks to be just trying to hit stroke for stroke with the big hitters which wont work.

spencercarlos
Mar 19th, 2006, 11:18 PM
She was using more variety and all court play in Australia and it was great to watch and in her last few matches i have seen in Dubai and IW she looks to be just trying to hit stroke for stroke with the big hitters which wont work.
I agree, but also disagree. What i mean is that in her last two matches against Sharapova, she has tried to out hit her, instead of out think her.
But probably Hingis is trying to add some more power to her game because she knows that the "out thinking" game won´t be enough to beat Henin, Mauresmo (and WS at their best).
I think Hingis is still trying some different things, i think she needs time in order to realize, the style that she needs to play, to get further, if it will be an agressive one, a retrieving one or working the ball around the court, who knows.. that will be up to her.

Zauber
Mar 19th, 2006, 11:30 PM
Beating yourself.
think about it truly.
A valid concept when two people play against each other????????????????
and they both play at a descend level as all pro players do.
She played great tennis years ago and she still is playing very similar great games.
Face it the change in women's tennis has been overstated overadvertised.
Advertising works but it does not make it true.