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Infiniti2001
Mar 17th, 2006, 01:21 AM
AMSTERDAM, Netherlands - The camera focuses on two gay men kissing in a park. Later, a topless woman emerges from the sea and walks onto a crowded beach. For would-be immigrants to the Netherlands, this film is a test of their readiness to participate in the liberal Dutch culture.

If they can't stomach it, no need to apply.

Despite whether they find the film offensive, applicants must buy a copy and watch it if they hope to pass the Netherlands' new entrance examination.

The test ó the first of its kind in the world ó became compulsory Wednesday, and was made available at 138 Dutch embassies.

Taking the exam costs $420. The price for a preparation package that includes the film, a CD ROM and a picture album of famous Dutch people is $75.

"As of today, immigrants wishing to settle in the Netherlands for, in particular, the purposes of marrying or forming a relationship will be required to take the civic integration examination abroad," the Immigration Ministry said in a statement.

The test is part of a broader crackdown on immigration that has been gathering momentum in the Netherlands since 2001.

Anti-immigration sentiment peaked with filmmaker Theo van Gogh's murder by a Dutch national of Moroccan descent in November 2004.

Both praise and scorn have been poured on Immigration Minister Rita Verdonk, the architect of the new test and other policies that have reduced immigration by at least a third.

"If you pass, you're more than welcome," Verdonk said. "It is in the interest of Dutch society and those concerned."

Not everyone is happy with the new test.

"Today is a black day for the people intending to bring their partners to Holland," said Buitenlandse Partner, a lobbying group for mixed Dutch/immigrant couples.

Dutch theologian Karel Steenbrink criticized the 105-minute movie, saying it would be offensive to some Muslims.

"It is not a prudent way of welcoming people to the Netherlands," said Steenbrink, a professor at the University of Utrecht. "Minister Verdonk has radical ideas."

But Mohammed Sini, the chairman of Islam and Citizenship, a national Muslim organization, defended the film, saying that homosexuality is "a reality."

Sini urged all immigrants "to embrace modernity."

A censored version with no homosexual and nude material had been prepared because it is illegal to show such images in
Iran and some other countries, filmmaker Walter Goverde said.

"With all the respect I have for all religions, I think people need to understand that Holland has its own liberal side as well," he said.

After viewing the film, which is available in most languages, applicants are then quizzed on important Dutch factoids such as the number of provinces that make up the Netherlands; the role played by William of Orange in the country's history; and Queen Beatrix's monarchial functions.

There are some major exemptions. EU nationals, asylum-seekers and skilled workers who earn more than $54,000 per year will not be required to take the 30-minute computerized exam.

Also, citizens of the United States, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Japan and Switzerland are exempt.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060315/ap_on_re_eu/netherlands_testing_immigrants_2

hablo
Mar 17th, 2006, 01:44 AM
I read that yesterday!
Interesting :spit:

DutchieGirl
Mar 17th, 2006, 01:49 AM
AMSTERDAM, Netherlands - The camera focuses on two gay men kissing in a park. Later, a topless woman emerges from the sea and walks onto a crowded beach. For would-be immigrants to the Netherlands, this film is a test of their readiness to participate in the liberal Dutch culture.

If they can't stomach it, no need to apply.

Despite whether they find the film offensive, applicants must buy a copy and watch it if they hope to pass the Netherlands' new entrance examination.

The test — the first of its kind in the world — became compulsory Wednesday, and was made available at 138 Dutch embassies.

Taking the exam costs $420. The price for a preparation package that includes the film, a CD ROM and a picture album of famous Dutch people is $75.

"As of today, immigrants wishing to settle in the Netherlands for, in particular, the purposes of marrying or forming a relationship will be required to take the civic integration examination abroad," the Immigration Ministry said in a statement.

The test is part of a broader crackdown on immigration that has been gathering momentum in the Netherlands since 2001.

Anti-immigration sentiment peaked with filmmaker Theo van Gogh's murder by a Dutch national of Moroccan descent in November 2004.

Both praise and scorn have been poured on Immigration Minister Rita Verdonk, the architect of the new test and other policies that have reduced immigration by at least a third.

"If you pass, you're more than welcome," Verdonk said. "It is in the interest of Dutch society and those concerned."

Not everyone is happy with the new test.

"Today is a black day for the people intending to bring their partners to Holland," said Buitenlandse Partner, a lobbying group for mixed Dutch/immigrant couples.

Dutch theologian Karel Steenbrink criticized the 105-minute movie, saying it would be offensive to some Muslims.

"It is not a prudent way of welcoming people to the Netherlands," said Steenbrink, a professor at the University of Utrecht. "Minister Verdonk has radical ideas."

But Mohammed Sini, the chairman of Islam and Citizenship, a national Muslim organization, defended the film, saying that homosexuality is "a reality."

Sini urged all immigrants "to embrace modernity."

A censored version with no homosexual and nude material had been prepared because it is illegal to show such images in
Iran and some other countries, filmmaker Walter Goverde said.

"With all the respect I have for all religions, I think people need to understand that Holland has its own liberal side as well," he said.

After viewing the film, which is available in most languages, applicants are then quizzed on important Dutch factoids such as the number of provinces that make up the Netherlands; the role played by William of Orange in the country's history; and Queen Beatrix's monarchial functions.

There are some major exemptions. EU nationals, asylum-seekers and skilled workers who earn more than $54,000 per year will not be required to take the 30-minute computerized exam.

Also, citizens of the United States, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Japan and Switzerland are exempt.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060315/ap_on_re_eu/netherlands_testing_immigrants_2

:haha: Hmm...they ask how many provinces... 12... better start reading up on the House of Orange though! :angel:

oh wait... :tape: I didn't read the last line... I'm exempt! :haha: :woohoo: I don't need to read up. ;) (Damn - I wanted to see those titties on the beach! :angel: :haha: ).

Wannabeknowitall
Mar 17th, 2006, 01:57 AM
:haha: Hmm...they ask how many provinces... 12... better start reading up on the House of Orange though! :angel:

oh wait... :tape: I didn't read the last line... I'm exempt! :haha: :woohoo: I don't need to read up. ;) (Damn - I wanted to see those titties on the beach! :angel: :haha: ).

OK. With all the close-minded conservatives in America, why exactly is America exempt???
I could see a close minded American trying to start something with a gay couple kissing in a park.

DutchieGirl
Mar 17th, 2006, 01:59 AM
OK. With all the close-minded conservatives in America, why exactly is America exempt???
I could see a close minded American trying to start something with a gay couple kissing in a park.

:haha: How the heck do I know? I'm an open minded Aussie who doesn't mind naked girls on a beach, or guys kissing in the park - I dunno why America would be exempt! :p

Conservative
Mar 17th, 2006, 02:00 AM
There are some major exemptions. EU nationals, asylum-seekers and skilled workers who earn more than $54,000 per year will not be required to take the 30-minute computerized exam.
Financial discrimination, shall we? :rolleyes:

I'd like to see a film about conservative ideals enforced if the poor Dutch immigrants have to be subject to this liberal torture.

dementieva's fan
Mar 17th, 2006, 02:03 AM
I read that yesterday!
Interesting :spit:

I think Canada should do the same :p

DutchieGirl
Mar 17th, 2006, 02:04 AM
Financial discrimination, shall we? :rolleyes:

I'd like to see a film about conservative ideals enforced if the poor Dutch immigrants have to be subject to this liberal torture.

Hang on... people are moving to NL, they should adhear to THAT society, not the other way round! :p If your country wants to show films about conservatitve ideals to immigrants, then so be it...but if you wanna live in NL, get used to their ideals... :shrug:

Infiniti2001
Mar 17th, 2006, 02:08 AM
Financial discrimination, shall we? :rolleyes:

I'd like to see a film about conservative ideals enforced if the poor Dutch immigrants have to be subject to this liberal torture.

You cannot be serious :rolleyes:

Conservative
Mar 17th, 2006, 02:08 AM
Hang on... people are moving to NL, they should adhear to THAT society, not the other way round! :p If your country wants to show films about conservatitve ideals to immigrants, then so be it...but if you wanna live in NL, get used to their ideals... :shrug:


You have a point, but trying to shove this liberal jargon down immigrants' throats will probably end up biting the Dutch in the ass.

Wannabeknowitall
Mar 17th, 2006, 02:11 AM
You have a point, but trying to shove this liberal jargon down immigrants' throats will probably end up biting the Dutch in the ass.

Let me just finish the rest...Blah Blah Blah...Dubya...Blah Blah Blah....sodom and gomorrah.

Infiniti2001
Mar 17th, 2006, 02:12 AM
You have a point, but trying to shove this liberal jargon down immigrants' throats will probably end up biting the Dutch in the ass.

I doubt it.. The Dutch are being upfront. Immigrants know what to expect. If they don't like it, they need not bother apply for citizenship.

Conservative
Mar 17th, 2006, 02:14 AM
Let me just finish the rest...Blah Blah Blah...Dubya...Blah Blah Blah....sodom and gomorrah.

Let me finish the rest...gay marriage, gun control, equality forum fanboy, Hilary Rodham.

Keep up the stereotyping, tit for tat.

DutchieGirl
Mar 17th, 2006, 02:29 AM
You have a point, but trying to shove this liberal jargon down immigrants' throats will probably end up biting the Dutch in the ass.

If the immigrants can't handle it, they should not be moving there in the first place! ;)

DutchieGirl
Mar 17th, 2006, 02:30 AM
Let me finish the rest...gay marriage, gun control, equality forum fanboy, Hilary Rodham.

Keep up the stereotyping, tit for tat.

well I don't have a problem with the 1st 2... other 2 :scratch: wtf? :lol: btw, wannabeknowitall has a US flag... :p

CJ07
Mar 17th, 2006, 03:06 AM
OK. With all the close-minded conservatives in America, why exactly is America exempt???
I could see a close minded American trying to start something with a gay couple kissing in a park.

:rolleyes:

The netherlands are really liberal, even for European standards, so I guess this makes sense to make sure people who come in know what they're getting into.

But so how is this different from that Florida town wanting only their own to be there huh ;)

CJ07
Mar 17th, 2006, 03:08 AM
Actually, I'd love to see someone make a CONSERVATIVE film like this, force people to watch it and see what happens.

Ah, double standards. I'm not saying the premise is wrong, but only if you're on that side of the fence.

Conservative
Mar 17th, 2006, 03:13 AM
Actually, I'd love to see someone make a CONSERVATIVE film like this, force people to watch it and see what happens.

Ah, double standards. I'm not saying the premise is wrong, but only if you're on that side of the fence.

:yeah:

~ The Leopard ~
Mar 17th, 2006, 03:44 AM
Cool. Gotta love the Netherlands. This has nothing to do with whether you are fiscally liberal or conservative. It's got everything to do with life in a pluralistic society. If you don't want to live in a society like that, stay home.

Solitaire
Mar 17th, 2006, 03:55 AM
A European country letting immigrants in! :eek: I love the Netherlands by the way. ;)

CJ07
Mar 17th, 2006, 04:00 AM
Cool. Gotta love the Netherlands. This has nothing to do with whether you are fiscally liberal or conservative. It's got everything to do with life in a pluralistic society. If you don't want to live in a society like that, stay home.
You're contradicting yourself. Your saying that its good because its a community that promotes acceptance even though they're saying if you don't accept their acceptance then your not accepted? Thats a bit of a convoluted statement.

Its about life in a LIBERAL society. And there is nothing wrong with that. Just like there are lots of conservative societys. Personally I prefer the latter, but thats why we have choice.

Pheobo
Mar 17th, 2006, 04:43 AM
I actually think it's a good idea...

Americans and Japanese shouldn't be exempt :lol:

CJ07
Mar 17th, 2006, 05:15 AM
I actually think it's a good idea...

Americans and Japanese shouldn't be exempt :lol:
they're exempt because they got $$$$

drake3781
Mar 17th, 2006, 05:16 AM
This really must be an issue in the Dutch country, because I just saw this related article:

Dutch gays-vs.-Muslims soccer match set

SUMMARY: A Dutch multicultural group is organizing a soccer tournament between gays and Muslims, hoping to ease tensions between the two groups.

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands -- A Dutch multicultural group is organizing a soccer tournament between gays and Muslims, hoping to counter what a study published on Thursday said was a rising tide of fear among gays.

A nationwide survey by the Police Research Academy said that most gays questioned feel unsafe and reported experiencing verbal attacks in the last year.

Of the 776 homosexuals who responded to an Internet questionnaire, 80 percent said they believed their safety was threatened at some time during the year, said academy director Frits Vlek, who commissioned the research.

Only 3 percent said they were physically assaulted, Vlek said in an interview, but some 40 percent claimed they had been insulted or verbally abused.

Youths from Moroccan and Turkish backgrounds often were blamed for the incidents, Vlek said, since homosexuality is not widely accepted in many Muslim cultures.

"Parts of the Muslim community still resist homosexuality and receive little education about it," he said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/po/20060317/co_po/dutchgaysvsmuslimssoccermatchset;_ylt=AuYQ8WDGdw_6 A5nrxAla3h0DW7oF;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRP UCUl

Muslim-gay tension is the theme of the soccer tournament organized by the Institute of Multicultural Development, to be held next week.

An organizer of the group, Suzanne Ijsselmuiden, said she hoped the competition will "help ease these tensions so that people can openly talk about homosexuality."

Gay Muslims can take their choice of teams, she said. "People can have many identities."

A Latin team along with a team of all-women players has also been assembled for the government-sponsored competition.

Xanadu11
Mar 17th, 2006, 05:31 AM
Although I agree that people should be accepting of a countries culture, the ideology behind this seems :retard: . It's just fundamentalist left wing policy European nations like Australia are based on liberalism, which isn't about promoting one pervasive culture, it is about individual rights. And I say this as a liberal and open minded person.

gsm
Mar 17th, 2006, 05:34 AM
germany, holland and britain verse muslims?
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1935900,00.html

Citizenship tests are currently in fashion in Europe, with Germany, the Netherlands and Britain all revising the process by which immigrants are admitted or made nationals...

mandy7
Mar 17th, 2006, 06:18 AM
we're letting in too many ppl anyways
bloody 16 million ppl in a land that's 200k's wide and 300k's long
that's pretty crowded i tel you
traffic is hell! :mad:

Lord Nelson
Mar 17th, 2006, 11:37 AM
Hang on... people are moving to NL, they should adhear to THAT society, not the other way round! :p If your country wants to show films about conservatitve ideals to immigrants, then so be it...but if you wanna live in NL, get used to their ideals... :shrug:
Values like Pim Fortuyn's? Then hands down I will accept those 'liberal' values. :D

Lord Nelson
Mar 17th, 2006, 11:43 AM
I doubt it.. The Dutch are being upfront. Immigrants know what to expect. If they don't like it, they need not bother apply for citizenship.
You are pretty naive aren't you? Anyone applying can say that they accept this or that just to get the passport. Does not mean it will change them. I am still the same after I recieved my Swiss passport and I bet most immigrants won't change either.

azdaja
Mar 17th, 2006, 12:04 PM
the purpose of this is not to enforce or even inform immigrants about the supposed values of the dutch society. this is just another attempt to bully and stigmatise immigrants, especially muslims. there are already similar tests in some parts of germany.

i suppose everyone will applaud introduction of these tests, everything is good as long as it's against them evil backward muslims, right?

DutchieGirl
Mar 17th, 2006, 12:12 PM
NL has had an "inburgering cursus" (incoming people's course) for agggggggggggges, and I'm pretty sure I would still have to do that if I wanna live in NL - coz we were already asking about it when I was gonna move there to live with my boyf...

mandy7
Mar 17th, 2006, 12:16 PM
geloof me Sarah, je wil hier niet wonen, echt niet, gaat je tegenvallen

DutchieGirl
Mar 17th, 2006, 12:18 PM
geloof me Sarah, je wil hier niet wonen, echt niet, gaat je tegenvallen

ben je me? Nee...dan zeggen niet wat ik wil of niet doen... :p

mandy7
Mar 17th, 2006, 12:20 PM
mij*
dus je bent nu al gezakt voor je inburgeringscursus :p ;)

nee, echt, in AustraliŽ heb je lekker veel ruimte, lekker weer, ideaal joh :D

DutchieGirl
Mar 17th, 2006, 12:22 PM
mij*
dus je bent nu al gezakt voor je inburgeringscursus :p ;)

nee, echt, in AustraliŽ heb je lekker veel ruimte, lekker weer, ideaal joh :D

nee...Australie is ook OK, maar ik wil in NL wonen (mssn niet voor altijd, maar zeker voor een paar jaren)...

Strangelove
Mar 17th, 2006, 12:24 PM
NL has had an "inburgering cursus" (incoming people's course) for agggggggggggges, and I'm pretty sure I would still have to do that if I wanna live in NL - coz we were already asking about it when I was gonna move there to live with my boyf...
Actually, it's "inburgeringscursus" ;)

And it's damn hard, I tell ya...I bet if I had to take it, I'd be thrown out of the country. Of course, legally they can't do that, cause I was born and raised here :lol:

mandy7
Mar 17th, 2006, 12:26 PM
a couple of ppl at work here took it
only one guy failed

and sarah, couple of years would be good
but you'll be so happy when you move back to oz again :lol:

DutchieGirl
Mar 17th, 2006, 12:27 PM
Actually, it's "inburgeringscursus" ;)

And it's damn hard, I tell ya...I bet if I had to take it, I'd be thrown out of the country. Of course, legally they can't do that, cause I was born and raised here :lol:

Hey - at least I spelt it right, even if I did hit the space key! :p

anyway, I just call it the "burger rings" course (they are a sort of crisp in Australia! ;) But I think they would throw me out if I told them that in the course! :lol:

DutchieGirl
Mar 17th, 2006, 12:28 PM
a couple of ppl at work here took it
only one guy failed

and sarah, couple of years would be good
but you'll be so happy when you move back to oz again :lol:

:shrug: Well I quite like NL, even if you don't think it's so great. :p

mandy7
Mar 17th, 2006, 12:29 PM
:shrug: Well I quite like NL, even if you don't think it's so great. :p

oh, it's great, i love my country
but it'll be damn hard for you to live her after being used to 25 years
of chilled life in Aus ;)

DutchieGirl
Mar 17th, 2006, 12:59 PM
oh, it's great, i love my country
but it'll be damn hard for you to live her after being used to 25 years
of chilled life in Aus ;)

I don't think so - I mean I have spent a bit of time in NL, and I do know what it is like there! :p

Hagar
Mar 17th, 2006, 01:09 PM
Cool. Gotta love the Netherlands. This has nothing to do with whether you are fiscally liberal or conservative. It's got everything to do with life in a pluralistic society. If you don't want to live in a society like that, stay home.

I hope Belgium will follow this example.

Infiniti2001
Mar 17th, 2006, 01:41 PM
the purpose of this is not to enforce or even inform immigrants about the supposed values of the dutch society. this is just another attempt to bully and stigmatise immigrants, especially muslims. there are already similar tests in some parts of germany.

i suppose everyone will applaud introduction of these tests, everything is good as long as it's against them evil backward muslims, right?

Oh cry me a river!! I am so tired of this victim mentality :o Many of the muslims you're whinning for detest the West, yet they're leaving their own oppressive countries in droves :rolleyes:

spokenword73
Mar 17th, 2006, 01:49 PM
the purpose of this is not to enforce or even inform immigrants about the supposed values of the dutch society. this is just another attempt to bully and stigmatise immigrants, especially muslims. there are already similar tests in some parts of germany.

i suppose everyone will applaud introduction of these tests, everything is good as long as it's against them evil backward muslims, right?

:worship:

Lord Nelson
Mar 17th, 2006, 02:03 PM
the purpose of this is not to enforce or even inform immigrants about the supposed values of the dutch society. this is just another attempt to bully and stigmatise immigrants, especially muslims. there are already similar tests in some parts of germany.

i suppose everyone will applaud introduction of these tests, everything is good as long as it's against them evil backward muslims, right?
Yes exactly, even spokeword agrees on this. :yeah:


Oh they are still protsting on the cartoons. :lol:
LAHORE, Pakistan - More than 20,000 supporters of a radical Islamic group held a peaceful rally against the publication of Prophet Muhammad cartoons Friday in an eastern Pakistan city and accused the government of being "soft" on the West over the controversy.

"The government should have taken a hard stance against those countries where these cartoons were published to insult our beloved Prophet Muhammad," Hafiz Mohammed Saeed, the leader of the Jamaat al-Dawat group, told the mass gathering at a park in the city.

Saeed is a renowned cleric and a former leader of the Lashkar-e-Tayyaba Islamic militant group which was banned by President Gen. Pervez Musharraf in 2002 in an effort to curb extremism and militancy.

Since then, Saeed has set up the Jamaat al-Dawat group, which mainly preaches Islam, runs seminaries and operates medical centers.

The government had recently put Saeed under house arrest for several days to stop him from leading rallies against cartoons after a spate of violence during cartoon protests across Pakistan last month left five people dead.

On Friday, Saeed urged protesters to continue organizing rallies to force the government to sever diplomatic ties with all countries where the cartoons, regarded by Muslims as blasphemous, were published.

"All Islamic countries should immediately boycott the products of such countries, and we will not tolerate any bad thing against Islam, the holy Quran and our beloved Prophet Muhammad," he said.

Several other anti-U.S. clerics also addressed the rally.

Although leaders of several countries where the cartoons were published have expressed regret for the offense caused by the caricatures' publication, some hard-line Islamists in this Islamic nation of 150 million say the cartoonists should be sentenced to death.

SelesFan70
Mar 17th, 2006, 02:13 PM
the purpose of this is not to enforce or even inform immigrants about the supposed values of the dutch society. this is just another attempt to bully and stigmatise immigrants, especially muslims. there are already similar tests in some parts of germany.

i suppose everyone will applaud introduction of these tests, everything is good as long as it's against them evil backward muslims, right?

If that's the way you view it, so be it. :rolleyes:

Personally, if were Dutch and had the power, I'd make the immigrants _________________ :angel:

azdaja
Mar 17th, 2006, 02:23 PM
Oh they are still protsting on the cartoons. :lol:

in pakistan? over there they want musharraf's head, the cartoons just triggered the protests. their value is purely symbolic.

IndieBoi
Mar 17th, 2006, 05:16 PM
Actually, I'd love to see someone make a CONSERVATIVE film like this, force people to watch it and see what happens.

Maybe the U.S. or Jamaica could start one...

tterb
Mar 17th, 2006, 06:22 PM
:lol: @ people suggesting a "conservative" video. What would you do? Have two men kissing and then draw a circle with an X over them? Gee, I wonder why that might not go over well?

I doubt the Netherlands cares if your religion believes homosexuality is immoral, and they sure as hell aren't trying to force you to change your mind. If homosexuality is against your personal beliefs, that's fine, but you'd better be able to watch simple acts of affection between people of the same gender without hurling invectives. I don't see how a country is obligated to allow entry to someone who can't peacefully coexist with others, especially if discrimination has been a problem recently. That said, maybe the video should also show images of Muslims, Christians, etc. because you'd also better be able to coexist with people of different religions if you're going to move to the Netherlands.

Furthermore, I can't understand why two men kissing is deemed "liberal." Gay people exist. It's a fact. Allowing gay couples the same rights as straight couples is "liberal?" I guess I didn't realize equality issues were just a liberal thing.

azdaja
Mar 17th, 2006, 06:36 PM
i read about that video and all i can say is that it is complete rubbish. assuming that people who want to immigrate are intolerant and need to get educated about dutch "liberal" ways is fairly idiotic. it fits the definition of, you know, prejudice, be it cultural or even something worse.

CJ07
Mar 17th, 2006, 06:46 PM
PDA period is gross. But I'd guess that a conservative video would be I dunno, people going to church, southern hospitality, people hunting, stuff like that.

Or it'd be KKK rallies, people killing gays, you know everday life ;)

DutchieGirl
Mar 17th, 2006, 10:28 PM
i read about that video and all i can say is that it is complete rubbish. assuming that people who want to immigrate are intolerant and need to get educated about dutch "liberal" ways is fairly idiotic. it fits the definition of, you know, prejudice, be it cultural or even something worse.

really don't agree with you on this...

~ The Leopard ~
Mar 17th, 2006, 10:57 PM
How did I know which posters would be here railing against this as another example of prejudice against those poor Muslims.

Actually, I agree with the whoever said the US shouldn't have an exemption. Given the debacle over Janet Jackson's nipple, and many other things, I'd make no assumptions that Americans understand the kind of pluralism we're talking about. Maybe you should only get an exemption if you come from one of those "blue states" (if I have the colour code right). :)

DutchieGirl
Mar 17th, 2006, 11:05 PM
How did I know which posters would be here railing against this as another example of prejudice against those poor Muslims.

Actually, I agree with the whoever said the US shouldn't have an exemption. Given the debacle over Janet Jackson's nipple, and many other things, I'd make no assumptions that Americans understand the kind of pluralism we're talking about. Maybe you should only get an exemption if you come from one of those "blue states" (if I have the colour code right). :)

hmm yes - you make a good point about the US...

Infiniti2001
Mar 17th, 2006, 11:11 PM
I agree Americans shouldn't be exempt--- then again the number of Americans moving to the Netherlands or any other country is minute compared to the number leaving their respective countries seeking a better life in the Netherlands :shrug:

DutchieGirl
Mar 17th, 2006, 11:13 PM
I agree Americans shouldn't be exempt--- then again the number of Americans moving to the Netherlands or any other country is minute compared to the number leaving their respective countries seeking a better life in the Netherlands :shrug:

Also true! ;)

Infiniti2001
Mar 17th, 2006, 11:14 PM
How did I know which posters would be here railing against this as another example of prejudice against those poor Muslims.

Actually, I agree with the whoever said the US shouldn't have an exemption. Given the debacle over Janet Jackson's nipple, and many other things, I'd make no assumptions that Americans understand the kind of pluralism we're talking about. Maybe you should only get an exemption if you come from one of those "blue states" (if I have the colour code right). :)

What about the non prudes living in the red states ??:shrug:

DutchieGirl
Mar 17th, 2006, 11:15 PM
What about the non prudes living in the red states ??:shrug:

Are there any? :p

flyingmachine
Mar 17th, 2006, 11:16 PM
I read that yesterday!
Interesting :spit:
I agree with you too. :o

~ The Leopard ~
Mar 17th, 2006, 11:17 PM
What about the non prudes living in the red states ??:shrug:

They'll enjoy the video :hehehe: , so they're not really disadvantaged.

Infiniti2001
Mar 17th, 2006, 11:19 PM
Are there any? :p
Yours Truly :p :wavey:

DutchieGirl
Mar 17th, 2006, 11:25 PM
Yours Truly :p :wavey:

must be the only one then! ;) Enjoy the video (if you ever decide you wanna move to NL) coz you know you wanna watch it - even if you don't have to. :angel: :p

CJ07
Mar 17th, 2006, 11:46 PM
Honestly more stuff goes down in the red states than the blue states. That stereotype is something perpetuated by the media.

CJ07
Mar 17th, 2006, 11:46 PM
I mean those white trash hillbillies :tape: :o

tterb
Mar 18th, 2006, 12:40 AM
PDA period is gross. But I'd guess that a conservative video would be I dunno, people going to church, southern hospitality, people hunting, stuff like that.

Well, yeah, I'm no fan of PDAs. But think about what you said. The point of the video, as I understand it, is simply to show potential immigrants some possibly controversial things they're going to encounter in the Netherlands (not that I think these things should be controversial in the slightest, mind you).

Do many people get incensed over churchgoers, hunters, or friendliness? No. But some fundamentalists do get livid over homosexuality and nudity. If going to church was deemed immoral by a large section of the population, maybe a video would be needed to expose immigrants to the realities of a country in which church-going was accepted. But that obviously isn't the case.

Besides, again, it's not like the video is forcing you to like homosexuality. But if you can't watch a simple kiss or a naked woman without throwing a tantrum, maybe you shouldn't move to the Netherlands. It sounds like a simple test of civility to me.

And again, all this labeling. I guess it's not "liberal" to go to church or hunt? Why? Simply because liberals prefer keeping God out of government and favor criminal background checks before granting gun ownership? Policies are liberal. But I fail to see how simple actions like hunting, attending church, or kissing the same sex define you as liberal or conservative. I'm sure many liberals hunt and attend church. And I know there are gays who are conservative.

edit: I do have to add that I don't think Americans shouldn't be exempt. And having $$ is no indicator of how tolerant you are of others' differences. So it is somewhat dubious of the Netherlands to only make certain immigrants view the video.

dementieva's fan
Mar 18th, 2006, 12:54 AM
PDA period is gross. But I'd guess that a conservative video would be I dunno, people going to church, southern hospitality, people hunting, stuff like that.

Or it'd be KKK rallies, people killing gays, you know everday life ;)

:haha: So you are admitting that racism, intolerence, klan, violence are a part of conservative culture?

bionic71
Mar 18th, 2006, 01:31 AM
Well, yeah, I'm no fan of PDAs. But think about what you said. The point of the video, as I understand it, is simply to show potential immigrants some possibly controversial things they're going to encounter in the Netherlands (not that I think these things should be controversial in the slightest, mind you).

Do many people get incensed over churchgoers, hunters, or friendliness? No. But some fundamentalists do get livid over homosexuality and nudity. If going to church was deemed immoral by a large section of the population, maybe a video would be needed to expose immigrants to the realities of a country in which church-going was accepted. But that obviously isn't the case.

Besides, again, it's not like the video is forcing you to like homosexuality. But if you can't watch a simple kiss or a naked woman without throwing a tantrum, maybe you shouldn't move to the Netherlands. It sounds like a simple test of civility to me.

And again, all this labeling. I guess it's not "liberal" to go to church or hunt? Why? Simply because liberals prefer keeping God out of government and favor criminal background checks before granting gun ownership? Policies are liberal. But I fail to see how simple actions like hunting, attending church, or kissing the same sex define you as liberal or conservative. I'm sure many liberals hunt and attend church. And I know there are gays who are conservative.

Some common sense. :)

LeRoy.
Mar 18th, 2006, 01:33 AM
i wanna move to Holland. :bounce:

K.U.C.W-R.V
Mar 18th, 2006, 01:45 AM
Cool. Gotta love the Netherlands. This has nothing to do with whether you are fiscally liberal or conservative. It's got everything to do with life in a pluralistic society. If you don't want to live in a society like that, stay home.

Or deport yourself. That is my favoured option.

CJ07
Mar 18th, 2006, 02:48 AM
Well, yeah, I'm no fan of PDAs. But think about what you said. The point of the video, as I understand it, is simply to show potential immigrants some possibly controversial things they're going to encounter in the Netherlands (not that I think these things should be controversial in the slightest, mind you).

Do many people get incensed over churchgoers, hunters, or friendliness? No. But some fundamentalists do get livid over homosexuality and nudity. If going to church was deemed immoral by a large section of the population, maybe a video would be needed to expose immigrants to the realities of a country in which church-going was accepted. But that obviously isn't the case.

Besides, again, it's not like the video is forcing you to like homosexuality. But if you can't watch a simple kiss or a naked woman without throwing a tantrum, maybe you shouldn't move to the Netherlands. It sounds like a simple test of civility to me.

And again, all this labeling. I guess it's not "liberal" to go to church or hunt? Why? Simply because liberals prefer keeping God out of government and favor criminal background checks before granting gun ownership? Policies are liberal. But I fail to see how simple actions like hunting, attending church, or kissing the same sex define you as liberal or conservative. I'm sure many liberals hunt and attend church. And I know there are gays who are conservative.

edit: I do have to add that I don't think Americans shouldn't be exempt. And having $$ is no indicator of how tolerant you are of others' differences. So it is somewhat dubious of the Netherlands to only make certain immigrants view the video.
I 100% agree with you. People should be evaluated as individuals, not as a stereotype.

However, when doing a mass media, you can't go on the individuality.

CJ07
Mar 18th, 2006, 02:49 AM
:haha: So you are admitting that racism, intolerence, klan, violence are a part of conservative culture?
well yeah, duh :p

Thats what certain media outlets would lead you to believe :o

~ The Leopard ~
Mar 18th, 2006, 04:49 AM
The more I think about it, the more I think there should be no exemptions. Everyone who wants to come into a country that is committed to pluralism and tolerance should be given some exposure to what it means. I see no reason not to be proud of those values, or why we shouldn't spell them out to anyone that wants to come in to our respective countries on a permanent basis. It's not a great imposition. I'd favour Australia doing something like this, too.

azdaja
Mar 18th, 2006, 10:04 AM
How did I know which posters would be here railing against this as another example of prejudice against those poor Muslims.
oh, there is prejudice against other groups as well. european right-wing is primarily anti-immigrant, but muslims offer them a way to present themselves as defenders of european values. each way if you assume that a person from any country of the world must have a certain set of values and needs to be explained that it the netherlands it's different then you are prejudiced.

and i don't mean to offend anyone, but saying that americans should do that test and watch that pathetic video is as idiotic as saying that muslims should. how can people even suggest such things?

Infiniti2001
Mar 18th, 2006, 10:30 AM
oh, there is prejudice against other groups as well. european right-wing is primarily anti-immigrant, but muslims offer them a way to present themselves as defenders of european values. each way if you assume that a person from any country of the world must have a certain set of values and needs to be explained that it the netherlands it's different then you are prejudiced.

and i don't mean to offend anyone, but saying that americans should do that test and watch that pathetic video is as idiotic as saying that muslims should. how can people even suggest such things?

You have a say in who is welcomed in your home/house right?? :shrug: Well it's their country, they have every right to draw up the terms for anyone who wishes to enter and make it their permanent home--- period :wavey:

DutchieGirl
Mar 18th, 2006, 10:49 AM
oh, there is prejudice against other groups as well. european right-wing is primarily anti-immigrant, but muslims offer them a way to present themselves as defenders of european values. each way if you assume that a person from any country of the world must have a certain set of values and needs to be explained that it the netherlands it's different then you are prejudiced.

and i don't mean to offend anyone, but saying that americans should do that test and watch that pathetic video is as idiotic as saying that muslims should. how can people even suggest such things?

Do you know what, I really wish they would do something like it here in Australia, because I am sick of people coming here and trying to change the values of Australia to the values of their ex home country. I don't care where they come from - Australia has it's own values - get used to it, or go back to your original home. I guess that's how the Dutch feel too. And it's their right to make people watch the video (although if some have, then all should).

azdaja
Mar 18th, 2006, 12:46 PM
Do you know what, I really wish they would do something like it here in Australia, because I am sick of people coming here and trying to change the values of Australia to the values of their ex home country. I don't care where they come from - Australia has it's own values - get used to it, or go back to your original home. I guess that's how the Dutch feel too. And it's their right to make people watch the video (although if some have, then all should).
if they made me watch that i'd find it insulting. and this has nothing to do with muslims or anything. as i said, if this law would apply to americans i would be against it as much as i am now. nobody has the right to make assumptions about other individuals and this stuff more or less makes prejudice legitimate. that's shameful.

the funny thing is, if you actually look at the political parties and groups who support this, you will realise that they are for the most part conservative or even outright reactionary. i said that there are similar laws in some german federal states and some of the parties that support them are actually even against secularism. who are they to lecture anyone on tolerance? also, what are those parties actually trying to achieve? these questions are not irrelevant and i find it sad that people in europe are so easy to manipulate because of their prejudice. this could cost us all a lot in the long run.

and while i agree that integration of immigrants is an issue that should be taken seriously i don't think this is the way to go. intimmidating and stigmatising immigrants is bound to reduce chances for integration considerably.

then there is the obvious problem that it's not really easy to define what our values actually are. one of the things that i feel should be included in tests of this kind is that people should be informed about their civil liberties and rights, but apparently that does not have that great priority in the eyes of the people who support this law. that does not surprise me in the slightest.

Hulet
Mar 18th, 2006, 02:10 PM
AMSTERDAM, Netherlands - The camera focuses on two gay men kissing in a park. Later, a topless woman emerges from the sea and walks onto a crowded beach. For would-be immigrants to the Netherlands, this film is a test of their readiness to participate in the liberal Dutch culture.


What if the immigrants started mastrubating during the movie/test? Is that bad too?

The stupidest idea in the world. I don't have the energy or the time or the patience to reply to it though.

dementieva's fan
Mar 18th, 2006, 02:37 PM
Although I agree that people should be accepting of a countries culture, the ideology behind this seems :retard: . It's just fundamentalist left wing policy European nations like Australia are based on liberalism, which isn't about promoting one pervasive culture, it is about individual rights. And I say this as a liberal and open minded person.

A: Australia is not in Europe
B: Australia is not socially liberal

dementieva's fan
Mar 18th, 2006, 02:38 PM
Do you know what, I really wish they would do something like it here in Australia, because I am sick of people coming here and trying to change the values of Australia to the values of their ex home country. I don't care where they come from - Australia has it's own values - get used to it, or go back to your original home. I guess that's how the Dutch feel too. And it's their right to make people watch the video (although if some have, then all should).

What I fail to see is that how someone sitting in their home worshiping their religion, talking to their family members in some other language is changing the 'values' of Australia :lol:

Lord Nelson
Mar 18th, 2006, 02:43 PM
A: Australia is not in Europe
B: Australia is not socially liberal
He meant liberalism as in laissez faire economic approach in a market economy and not socially liberalism, the term that is used mainly in U.S.

Strangelove
Mar 18th, 2006, 02:50 PM
What I fail to see is that how someone sitting in their home worshiping their religion, talking to their family members in some other language is changing the 'values' of Australia :lol:
I agree. You have to allow people from other cultures some room to keep their own cultural heritage alive, if that's what they want.

But it's a really tricky divide. Between retaining their own (cultural) identities, and accepting the cultural identity of their new country I mean.
The most important point should still be that the immigrants, who come to your country because it is supposed to be a better place for them, learn to adhere to the rules of that country. Not the other way around. But if they want to practice their own religion in the privacy of their own home, fine.

azdaja
Mar 18th, 2006, 03:02 PM
immigration changes both the culture of the host country (usually only slightly) and cultures of immigrants (significantly or even completely over the course of only a generation or 2). there's nothing wrong with that. cultures change all the time anyway.

Hulet
Mar 18th, 2006, 03:35 PM
immigration changes both the culture of the host country (usually only slightly) and cultures of immigrants (significantly or even completely over the course of only a generation or 2). there's nothing wrong with that. cultures change all the time anyway.
Or, drastically, if you consider what happened two or three centuries ago when Europeans started popping up everywhere in the world. Whether it's wrong or not also could be viewed differently if you want to take the point of view of the Aborgines and the settlers in those times. So, it's kind of understandable that Europeans current panic when similar things appear to happen the other way around. As they say, what comes around goes around. But, I don't think the situations are similar but the fear triggered in both situations are pretty similar.

azdaja
Mar 18th, 2006, 03:49 PM
Or, drastically, if you consider what happened two or three centuries ago when Europeans started popping up everywhere in the world. Whether it's wrong or not also could be viewed differently if you want to take the point of view of the Aborgines and the settlers in those times. So, it's kind of understandable that Europeans current panic when similar things appear to happen the other way around. As they say, what comes around goes around. But, I don't think the situations are similar but the fear triggered in both situations are pretty similar.
well, as you said the situations are completely different. i find it pathetic that some anti-immigrant parties talk about "invasion" of europe by immigrants. invasion is what happened when europeans conquered america and australia. most immigrants now come to europe to work and they usually get jobs that most europeans avoid doing as much as they can. they don't come to europe as a new ruling class like europeans did in america and australia, they come as a new underclass. even worse, in the past europeans were actually the invaders and conquerors of the countries these people come from.

politicians in europe promote xenophobia in order to distract people from more important issues. blaming the politically powerless and for the most part passive immigrant population is very convenient for them.

Hulet
Mar 18th, 2006, 04:29 PM
well, as you said the situations are completely different. i find it pathetic that some anti-immigrant parties talk about "invasion" of europe by immigrants. invasion is what happened when europeans conquered america and australia. most immigrants now come to europe to work and they usually get jobs that most europeans avoid doing as much as they can. they don't come to europe as a new ruling class like europeans did in america and australia, they come as a new underclass. even worse, in the past europeans were actually the invaders and conquerors of the countries these people come from.

politicians in europe promote xenophobia in order to distract people from more important issues. blaming the politically powerless and for the most part passive immigrant population is very convenient for them.
Well, I agree, but I don't think the motive for the fear is sinister and calculating. It's just as instinctive as "Sh*t, when we invaded their country, look how we decimated their culture & civilization. Now if they took over here, what will they do to us?" Again, it's just their past coming to haunt them rather than anything based on reality now. So, their fear is kind of understandable but of course not tolerable.

azdaja
Mar 18th, 2006, 04:51 PM
Well, I agree, but I don't think the motive for the fear is sinister and calculating. It's just as instinctive as "Sh*t, when we invaded their country, look how we decimated their culture & civilization. Now if they took over here, what will they do to us?" Again, it's just their past coming to haunt them rather than anything based on reality now. So, their fear is kind of understandable but of course not tolerable.
i don't really think people in europe think much about their colonial past at all. but immigrants are often described as lazy, criminal, they are blamed for supposedly abusing the welfare system, they are supposedly responsible for high unemployment (very convenient for politicians who actually should be blamed for that) etc. that's where the fear comes from. some of that stuff was easy to see through, though, so this talk about different values the immigrants supposedly have is welcomed by the reactionaries who now finally can claim they defend european values against those barbarians. at the same time, they will push through policies that people don't really approve of.

bis2806
Mar 18th, 2006, 04:57 PM
A European country letting immigrants in! :eek: I love the Netherlands by the way. ;)

Well on the basis that he/she is marrying a Dutch citizen of course.. you can't, for example, say that you want to be an immigrant in Holland because you want to look for someone to marry

Hulet
Mar 18th, 2006, 05:24 PM
i don't really think people in europe think much about their colonial past at all. but immigrants are often described as lazy, criminal, they are blamed for supposedly abusing the welfare system, they are supposedly responsible for high unemployment (very convenient for politicians who actually should be blamed for that) etc. that's where the fear comes from. some of that stuff was easy to see through, though, so this talk about different values the immigrants supposedly have is welcomed by the reactionaries who now finally can claim they defend european values against those barbarians. at the same time, they will push through policies that people don't really approve of.
Yes, most Europeans might not consciously think of their colonial past, but that doesn't prove that it's doesn't influence most of their attitudes with regards to outsiders. Consider the following scenario: say you have an important interview coming up early next week. You are stressed out about this interview but feel that in order for you to do well at this interview you shouldn't worry yourselves to death over the weekend. So, you do your best to forget about it in the weekend, but the more you attempt to get it out of your mind, the more it disturbs you inside and the more it affects your general attitude all through the weekend. Similarly (although I am feeling once again that I am overstretching analogies here), the more Europeans attempt to wipe their past out of their current state-of-mind, the more they are unconsciously are affected by it. Hence, I think blaming immigrants for a lot of societies problems is actually the consequence rather than the cause of the fear of immigrants. Admitting to the fear of outsiders would force them to face up why they fear them in the first instance and to dig through their own history, which of course is painful and damning, so why not deny this fear by transfering (still unconsciously, nothing calculated here) this attitude to the immigrants by characterizing them as undesireables?

azdaja
Mar 18th, 2006, 05:36 PM
i honestly think the only consequence of colonialism in the european "collective mind" is this smug feeling the europeans have about themselves, this idea about the superiority of the european civilisation (as i said, most people don't remember their ancestors conquered the world by using organised violence at levels not seen since the medieval mongol empire) and the idea that the rest of the world needs to be taken care of by the superior, but compassionate european nations. they see immigration as an act of charity or something.

Hulet
Mar 18th, 2006, 05:51 PM
i honestly think the only consequence of colonialism in the european "collective mind" is this smug feeling the europeans have about themselves, this idea about the superiority of the european civilisation (as i said, most people don't remember their ancestors conquered the world by using organised violence at levels not seen since the medieval mongol empire) and the idea that the rest of the world needs to be taken care of by the superior, but compassionate european nations. they see immigration as an act of charity or something.
They must be quite aware of how they got to be "superior" over all those other cultures though. I am not saying that there isn't an outward denial of the aggressiveness and the violence through which this civilization expanded over others but to not be aware of this violence at some level seems kind of impossible to me. Infact, the outward appearance of covering up this part of their history sort of proves my point in that in an attempt to deny, ignore or not own to this part of their past they are internalizing it and letting it influence their outlook these days. I am not suggesting that they feel any guilt about their history but are acutely aware of the fact what might happen to their "civilization" if similar circumstances were to repeat themselves - this time in reverse. Hence, their irrational paranoia and obsession with controlling outsiders.

Lord Nelson
Mar 18th, 2006, 06:38 PM
i honestly think the only consequence of colonialism in the european "collective mind" is this smug feeling the europeans have about themselves, this idea about the superiority of the european civilisation (as i said, most people don't remember their ancestors conquered the world by using organised violence at levels not seen since the medieval mongol empire) and the idea that the rest of the world needs to be taken care of by the superior, but compassionate european nations. they see immigration as an act of charity or something.
You are speaking as if Europeans are the only ones who colonized. Never mind the Turks (ok they can be classifed as Europeans), American Indians (navajos would colonize apache land and so on), Arabs-colonizing African land etc..

azdaja
Mar 18th, 2006, 06:56 PM
You are speaking as if Europeans are the only ones who colonized. Never mind the Turks (ok they can be classifed as Europeans), American Indians (navajos would colonize apache land and so on), Arabs-colonizing African land etc..
we are talking about europe here, so obviously i will talk about european history.

i did mention mongols in one of my posts though, doesn't that count? :p

~ The Leopard ~
Mar 18th, 2006, 08:58 PM
I love the way we're supposed to be so tolerant of all these warm, cuddly traditional cultures. But ask for a bit of tolerance back from them - of gay rights, open sexuality, or whatever - and we're horrible, prejudiced oppressors. :tape:

azdaja
Mar 18th, 2006, 09:03 PM
I love the way we're supposed to be so tolerant of all these warm, cuddly traditional cultures. But ask for a bit of tolerance back from them - of gay rights, open sexuality, or whatever - and we're horrible, prejudiced oppressors. :tape:
perhaps, but what does that have to do with individual people born in places where such cultures rule?

DutchieGirl
Mar 18th, 2006, 10:24 PM
if they made me watch that i'd find it insulting. and this has nothing to do with muslims or anything. as i said, if this law would apply to americans i would be against it as much as i am now. nobody has the right to make assumptions about other individuals and this stuff more or less makes prejudice legitimate. that's shameful.

the funny thing is, if you actually look at the political parties and groups who support this, you will realise that they are for the most part conservative or even outright reactionary. i said that there are similar laws in some german federal states and some of the parties that support them are actually even against secularism. who are they to lecture anyone on tolerance? also, what are those parties actually trying to achieve? these questions are not irrelevant and i find it sad that people in europe are so easy to manipulate because of their prejudice. this could cost us all a lot in the long run.

and while i agree that integration of immigrants is an issue that should be taken seriously i don't think this is the way to go. intimmidating and stigmatising immigrants is bound to reduce chances for integration considerably.

then there is the obvious problem that it's not really easy to define what our values actually are. one of the things that i feel should be included in tests of this kind is that people should be informed about their civil liberties and rights, but apparently that does not have that great priority in the eyes of the people who support this law. that does not surprise me in the slightest.

I really don't see how making ner migrants watch a video is intimidating or stigmatising them...I also don't see how it's gonna reduce chances that they intergrate.

Actually, that sort of thing IS part of the inburgeringcursus that I talked about before - it's about life in NL, and that includesl earning Dutch AND the laws etc...

and as you said in your first paragraph - nobody has the right to make assumptions about people - yet alot of immigrants coming into other countries will make assumptions about people already living there. And how is making people watch a video making assumptions about them? They didn't say "you have to watch this video because we assume you won't like this sort of stuff". It's just basically a video showing what "normal life" is in NL...people moving there would probably want to know about that anyway right?

DutchieGirl
Mar 18th, 2006, 10:26 PM
What I fail to see is that how someone sitting in their home worshiping their religion, talking to their family members in some other language is changing the 'values' of Australia :lol:

wtf does that have to do with anything? Obviously that is NOT changing the values of Australia, but I did not mention that it was. so :shrug:

DutchieGirl
Mar 18th, 2006, 10:27 PM
I agree. You have to allow people from other cultures some room to keep their own cultural heritage alive, if that's what they want.

But it's a really tricky divide. Between retaining their own (cultural) identities, and accepting the cultural identity of their new country I mean.
The most important point should still be that the immigrants, who come to your country because it is supposed to be a better place for them, learn to adhere to the rules of that country. Not the other way around. But if they want to practice their own religion in the privacy of their own home, fine.

OK - I never said they shouldn't be allowed to practice their own religion - your second paragraph was more about what I was getting at!

DutchieGirl
Mar 18th, 2006, 10:29 PM
I love the way we're supposed to be so tolerant of all these warm, cuddly traditional cultures. But ask for a bit of tolerance back from them - of gay rights, open sexuality, or whatever - and we're horrible, prejudiced oppressors. :tape:

:lol: :yeah:

azdaja
Mar 18th, 2006, 11:57 PM
I really don't see how making ner migrants watch a video is intimidating or stigmatising them...I also don't see how it's gonna reduce chances that they intergrate.

Actually, that sort of thing IS part of the inburgeringcursus that I talked about before - it's about life in NL, and that includesl earning Dutch AND the laws etc...

and as you said in your first paragraph - nobody has the right to make assumptions about people - yet alot of immigrants coming into other countries will make assumptions about people already living there. And how is making people watch a video making assumptions about them? They didn't say "you have to watch this video because we assume you won't like this sort of stuff". It's just basically a video showing what "normal life" is in NL...people moving there would probably want to know about that anyway right?
come on, i know you like the dutch, but they also make assumptions about immigrants. true, it's possible that immigrants also make assumptions about the dutch, but they don't make videos and make the dutch watch them. the power relations are clear. i can't claim i feel threatened by the people who clean the toilets i piss in regardless of what they think about me, that would be retarded indeed. and it is also clear what it means if politicians make it legal to think that immigrants are so retarded that they need enlightenment through moronic videos like this. it makes prejudice legitimate. combined with discrimination that many immigrants face it does make integration more difficult.

also, discrimination against immigrants is a part of the "normal life" in the netherlands as much as it is in other european countries. the video they made should include the information about what immigrants can do about it. it doesn't of course. but it is such things that actually make europe better than iran (for example). inform the people about their rights in a video and i'll support it. make stupid assumptions about them and i will oppose it.

DutchieGirl
Mar 19th, 2006, 12:39 AM
come on, i know you like the dutch, but they also make assumptions about immigrants. true, it's possible that immigrants also make assumptions about the dutch, but they don't make videos and make the dutch watch them. the power relations are clear. i can't claim i feel threatened by the people who clean the toilets i piss in regardless of what they think about me, that would be retarded indeed. and it is also clear what it means if politicians make it legal to think that immigrants are so retarded that they need enlightenment through moronic videos like this. it makes prejudice legitimate. combined with discrimination that many immigrants face it does make integration more difficult.

also, discrimination against immigrants is a part of the "normal life" in the netherlands as much as it is in other european countries. the video they made should include the information about what immigrants can do about it. it doesn't of course. but it is such things that actually make europe better than iran (for example). inform the people about their rights in a video and i'll support it. make stupid assumptions about them and i will oppose it.

I didn't say the Dutch didn't make assumptions about immigrants, I was just saying how do you know that video in particular does? Have you seen it? :p I still don't think that making immigrants watch this video is such a big deal. I wouldn't care if they wanted me to watch it when I'm moving there (I do plan to). The more info you have about the society you are moving to, the better, inculding things you may see there every day. :shrug: I wouldn't feel offended if they made me watch the video.

And sure the immigrants don't make the people in the country they are moving to watch a video - coz they don't have that power. They CHOOSE to move to the other country, so that's up to them. And if they have a problem moving there because they have to watch a video, then they should move somewhere else - they don't have to move to NL, and if they don't like the fact they have to watch this video, then there are plenty of other countries they could go to instead. ;)

dementieva's fan
Mar 19th, 2006, 12:56 AM
wtf does that have to do with anything? Obviously that is NOT changing the values of Australia, but I did not mention that it was. so :shrug:
So how in hell are they changing 'australian values',:shrug: give me examples

DutchieGirl
Mar 19th, 2006, 02:04 AM
So how in hell are they changing 'australian values',:shrug: give me examples

OMG... you need examples? Do you actually live in Australia? And why would you assume this has something to do with the church? I mean immigrants who come here, don't wanna learn the language, don't wanna join in in "Australian" life, just live in area's with people from their old country...and they disapprove of "Aussie" things...

azdaja
Mar 19th, 2006, 09:19 AM
I didn't say the Dutch didn't make assumptions about immigrants, I was just saying how do you know that video in particular does? Have you seen it? :p
no, i read about it and that should be enough. i also read about who pushed this law through. and i don't think that showing titties in a video will inform me a lot about the dutch society. they could have included a free porn mag in the package as well, i hear dutch porn is very popular internationally.

i'm also pretty sure that everyone can watch the video and answer the questions at the test just so they can get dutch citizenship. they won't change though. lord nelson is actually right for once. at the very least the whole thing is perfectly useless, at least for its declared purposes. but when you look at potential consequences (and here it's relevant who supports this law) then it kinda makes sense in the way i already explained.

They CHOOSE to move to the other country, so that's up to them. And if they have a problem moving there because they have to watch a video, then they should move somewhere else - they don't have to move to NL
not if they have a partner or a relative if the netherlands. and again, they won't have a problem watching the video. but they will get the message - you are not welcome here.

gentenaire
Mar 19th, 2006, 10:15 AM
, but they don't make videos and make the dutch watch them.

Are you saying that they're more tolerant than us because they don't make a video? Are you saying that Dutch gays moving to Morocco would face no problems at all, that they'd be accepted? Are you saying that Dutch women moving to Iran wouldn't be forced to wear a scarf, that they'd get to start a nude beach if they wanted to? I'm sorry, but I think we're far more tolerant than they are, video or not.

gentenaire
Mar 19th, 2006, 10:16 AM
I love the way we're supposed to be so tolerant of all these warm, cuddly traditional cultures. But ask for a bit of tolerance back from them - of gay rights, open sexuality, or whatever - and we're horrible, prejudiced oppressors. :tape:

Exactly!

azdaja
Mar 19th, 2006, 10:33 AM
Are you saying that they're more tolerant than us because they don't make a video? Are you saying that Dutch gays moving to Morocco would face no problems at all, that they'd be accepted? Are you saying that Dutch women moving to Iran wouldn't be forced to wear a scarf, that they'd get to start a nude beach if they wanted to? I'm sorry, but I think we're far more tolerant than they are, video or not.
i'm not saying they are more tolerant, i just don't see why we should become less tolerant, which is what the political parties who support these laws openly suggest ("we have been naive", they say).

btw, i also don't see why public displays of sexuality and nudity must be in that video at all. do immigrants riot because of stuff like that? some of them don't approve of such things (many europeans also don't), but they don't really do anything against it. so what's the problem then?

gentenaire
Mar 19th, 2006, 12:42 PM
btw, i also don't see why public displays of sexuality and nudity must be in that video at all. do immigrants riot because of stuff like that? some of them don't approve of such things (many europeans also don't), but they don't really do anything against it. so what's the problem then?

I don't particularly enjoy being called a whore for wearing shorts and a tank top. Nor do I think the fact that I'm white gives them the right to presume I'm a loose woman, so that they think they can get away with touching me unasked. But maybe that's just me.

And female teachers who struggle teaching muslim boys because they don't want to take orders from a woman, they're just whiners too, I suppose.

And the attacks against Jews mean nothing as well, I presume.

azdaja
Mar 19th, 2006, 01:17 PM
I don't particularly enjoy being called a whore for wearing shorts and a tank top. Nor do I think the fact that I'm white gives them the right to presume I'm a loose woman, so that they think they can get away with touching me unasked. But maybe that's just me.

And female teachers who struggle teaching muslim boys because they don't want to take orders from a woman, they're just whiners too, I suppose.

And the attacks against Jews mean nothing as well, I presume.
ok, you have just informed me about your prejudices. thanks. you are not better than those who make assumptions about you.

Jennifer North
Mar 19th, 2006, 01:58 PM
come on, i know you like the dutch, but they also make assumptions about immigrants. true, it's possible that immigrants also make assumptions about the dutch, but they don't make videos and make the dutch watch them. the power relations are clear. i can't claim i feel threatened by the people who clean the toilets i piss in regardless of what they think about me, that would be retarded indeed. and it is also clear what it means if politicians make it legal to think that immigrants are so retarded that they need enlightenment through moronic videos like this. it makes prejudice legitimate. combined with discrimination that many immigrants face it does make integration more difficult.

also, discrimination against immigrants is a part of the "normal life" in the netherlands as much as it is in other european countries. the video they made should include the information about what immigrants can do about it. it doesn't of course. but it is such things that actually make europe better than iran (for example). inform the people about their rights in a video and i'll support it. make stupid assumptions about them and i will oppose it.

honey, from the little I've read it looks like you're a fabulous poster with some interesting ideals, but I think you're just stretching them a little too out wide in this case... say that I move into a new apartment complex with a complete and already established set of rules that says, for example, that I cannot use the swimming pool or disturb the neighbors after 10PM... now suppose that I feel that those rules are unfairly limiting my individual necessities and I start throwing parties late at night the way I used to at my old place. Do you think I'm at right because my particular feelings should overrule the rest of the community's already set and previously agreed (officially even by me at lease's sign) norms?

TheBoiledEgg
Mar 19th, 2006, 02:09 PM
AMSTERDAM, Netherlands - The camera focuses on two gay men kissing in a park. Later, a topless woman emerges from the sea and walks onto a crowded beach. For would-be immigrants to the Netherlands, this film is a test of their readiness to participate in the liberal Dutch culture.

If they can't stomach it, no need to apply.



pffffffff dont you have a choice of film ??

i'd rather see two women kissing :drool: and a topless man.

azdaja
Mar 19th, 2006, 02:26 PM
honey, from the little I've read it looks like you're a fabulous poster with some interesting ideals, but I think you're just stretching them a little too out wide in this case... say that I move into a new apartment complex with a complete and already established set of rules that says, for example, that I cannot use the swimming pool or disturb the neighbors after 10PM... now suppose that I feel that those rules are unfairly limiting my individual necessities and I start throwing parties late at night the way I used to at my old place. Do you think I'm at right because my particular feelings should overrule the rest of the community's already set and previously agreed (officially even by me at lease's sign) norms?
what does that have to do with this topic? immigrants respect european laws or get arrested, that's how it works. they also don't demand a new set of rules, though some of them rightly fight against discrimination and don't like the stigma attached to them.

Infiniti2001
Mar 19th, 2006, 03:08 PM
ok, you have just informed me about your prejudices. thanks. you are not better than those who make assumptions about you.

How the hell did you jump to this conclusion about Tine?? :rolleyes: Anyone who is crazy enough to want to visit Iran or Saudi Arabia have values forced on them. I mean , Christians can't be seen with a bloody bible in SA and people of other religions are forced to pray 5 times a day and fast during ramadan.What is so bad about the Netherlands using their own values to warn/welcome potentiel immigrants??

mandy7
Mar 19th, 2006, 03:20 PM
i just feel like being totally rude here
and you can all call me a racist
i don't care
cause i know i'm not,
but..

PLEASE JUST CLOSE THE O****RY DOWN ALREADY!!!!!

as i said, 16million ppl in a country this small
it's too much!!!!!!!

gentenaire
Mar 19th, 2006, 03:21 PM
ok, you have just informed me about your prejudices. thanks. you are not better than those who make assumptions about you.

Since when are personal experiences prejudices?

gentenaire
Mar 19th, 2006, 03:32 PM
immigrants respect european laws or get arrested, that's how it works..

If only...

See, that's not how it works. That's not how it's happening at the moment. One of my friends got beaten up because she accidently spilled a little water over the shoe of an immigrant boy at a party. These guys didn't get arrested. In fact, the police advised her, while she was lying in hospital, not to press charges against them. She didn't, for her own safety. She had to ride past that area every day on her way to school. Should anyone there find out she was responsible for putting two of their boys in prison, they would have beaten her up again in no time. See, that's the thing, you can arrest two of them, but you end up with dozens of them ready for vengeance.

I got pulled by my hair, my tray with food was thrown in the air, also because we'd supposedly offended their little brother.

Do you want me to continue? There's a group of boys out there out of control and the police is useless against them! That's reality. I'm sick of the stupid political correctness that brands everyone who says these kind of a things a racist!

azdaja
Mar 19th, 2006, 04:40 PM
Since when are personal experiences prejudices?
if you project your personal experience with some people from a certain ethnic or whatever background to the whole ethnic group that's called prejudice. it's quite possible that you had negative experience with some immigrants. but what conclusions do you draw from that? this is a common excuse of all bigots. "we won't let black people in because we had negative experience with black customers." that's wrong, plain and simple.

i'd suggest you think about all that again.

gentenaire
Mar 19th, 2006, 04:48 PM
So according to you it's a coincidence that it was a muslim boy who called me a whore? That the fact that he's offended at seeing some leg has nothing to do with his background?

You said that immigrants don't really do anything about the things they find offensive (like nudety, or in my case showing legs and shoulders), I gave you a personal experience of mine that shows that they DO!

You want everyone to keep their heads in the sand! Wake up and smell the coffee!

azdaja
Mar 19th, 2006, 05:26 PM
So according to you it's a coincidence that it was a muslim boy who called me a whore? That the fact that he's offended at seeing some leg has nothing to do with his background?

You said that immigrants don't really do anything about the things they find offensive (like nudety, or in my case showing legs and shoulders), I gave you a personal experience of mine that shows that they DO!

You want everyone to keep their heads in the sand! Wake up and smell the coffee!
i friend of mine recently witnessed a situation where a native austrian boy insulted a girl and then started fighting with her. it was ugly.

but yeah, there are a lot of idiots among muslims. it is also no secret that a lot of the gangs active in my city are from eastern europe. but again, what conclusions can i draw from all that? that all people from say ukraine are gangsters? that these criminals are gangsters because they are from ukraine?

i don't want "everyone to keep their heads in the sand", the opposite is the case. what you are doing right now is buring your head in the sand. wake up to the complexity of the world's societies and cultures (including your own). don't stereotype. only then some progress can be made.

Hulet
Mar 19th, 2006, 06:05 PM
OMG... you need examples? Do you actually live in Australia? And why would you assume this has something to do with the church? I mean immigrants who come here, don't wanna learn the language, don't wanna join in in "Australian" life, just live in area's with people from their old country...and they disapprove of "Aussie" things...
I don't want you going hysteric but can you explain calmly how the immigrants being that way changes the Australians values? I couldn't see the connection (may be I am thick or something) so if you could point it to me I would really be appreciative.

Hulet
Mar 19th, 2006, 07:40 PM
OMG... you need examples? Do you actually live in Australia? And why would you assume this has something to do with the church? I mean immigrants who come here, don't wanna learn the language, don't wanna join in in "Australian" life, just live in area's with people from their old country...and they disapprove of "Aussie" things...
Okay, not to belabour this point, but I have really thought about this some more and can't still see the connection. If one considers the way you describe the immigrants in Australia, they appear to be secluded and separated from Australians. So, if that's the case how could they jump over their seclusion and affect the values of Australians. Do you see the disconnect? If the immigrants are not engaging the Australians, how are they able to influence the way Australians lead their lives?

mandy7
Mar 19th, 2006, 09:11 PM
So according to you it's a coincidence that it was a muslim boy who called me a whore? That the fact that he's offended at seeing some leg has nothing to do with his background?

oh don't you just love that
you show a little skin and all of a sudden you deserve to burn in hell and allah is gonna punish you
very charming comments you get from some muslim boys
it was 25 degrees and i was wearing short sleeves, shame on me eh?

DutchieGirl
Mar 20th, 2006, 02:59 AM
I don't want you going hysteric but can you explain calmly how the immigrants being that way changes the Australians values? I couldn't see the connection (may be I am thick or something) so if you could point it to me I would really be appreciative.

If you don't want me to gp "hysterical" then I think it's best I don't answer you at the moment! :rolleyes:

DutchieGirl
Mar 20th, 2006, 03:00 AM
Okay, not to belabour this point, but I have really thought about this some more and can't still see the connection. If one considers the way you describe the immigrants in Australia, they appear to be secluded and separated from Australians. So, if that's the case how could they jump over their seclusion and affect the values of Australians. Do you see the disconnect? If the immigrants are not engaging the Australians, how are they able to influence the way Australians lead their lives?

OK - I have sutdied Anthrpology at Universtiy, and we did alot on immigration and the effect on immigrants and on the society they are moving to. I do not wish to start writing more about it now as a. I haven't the time, and b. I'm not gonna change your views either way, so why bother?

A4
Mar 20th, 2006, 10:33 AM
How the hell did you jump to this conclusion about Tine?? :rolleyes: Anyone who is crazy enough to want to visit Iran or Saudi Arabia have values forced on them. I mean , Christians can't be seen with a bloody bible in SA and people of other religions are forced to pray 5 times a day and fast during ramadan.What is so bad about the Netherlands using their own values to warn/welcome potentiel immigrants??

Because then, they are becoming exactly like Iran and Saudi Arabia or at least getting to be like those countries. I believe that's what the poster seems to be saying. And considering the sources of these policies I can't say I don't agree with him. Its totally wrong to have religious doctrines and decrees forced onto Americans in the Arab world. Forcing would-be immigrants (not only muslims but Christians and other religious people) to watch gays making out isn't exactly right either JMHO.

As to immigrants harassing the natives, well, I could give loads of examples of the reverse. Jesus H. Christ!!!! Natives are attacking and killing African students in Russia in 2006!!!!!

Anyway, back to the subject. Europe is definitely a whole lot more tolerant than the Arab world (although I 'll take good ol' USA over anywhere). It'll be a shame to have right wingers capture Europe.

azdaja
Mar 20th, 2006, 12:41 PM
Because then, they are becoming exactly like Iran and Saudi Arabia or at least getting to be like those countries. (...) considering the sources of these policies
yes, that's what i'm saying, more or less.