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GoDominiqu
May 6th, 2002, 04:30 PM
Think of matches which had a definite impact on the circuit and after which tennis history would have taken a much different road, had there been a different winner.

OK, the most famous example is of course Seles vs. Maleeva 1993, and everyone knows that. I am thinking of matches which ended in a sporting way.

Example: Graf def. Hingis at FO 1999.
Would Martina have won other slams until today if she had one this ? Probably yes.
Would she still be brattier ? Maybe. ;)
Would Steffi have ended her career two months later if she had lost this ? Maybe not.

Other turning points of tennis history ?

sartrista7
May 6th, 2002, 04:35 PM
Venus Williams def. Lindsay Davenport, Wimbledon F 2000 (or arguably, her victory over Martina Hingis in the QF) - the tournament which turned her into a champion.

I can't remember exactly when, but I'm sure there was a US Open match between Seles and Capriati which I've heard mentioned a LOT as having a huge effect on Jennifer.

Volcana
May 6th, 2002, 04:39 PM
Battle of the Sexes II: BJK vs Bobby Riggs

Beige
May 6th, 2002, 04:43 PM
A rather obvious choice but I'll say it anyway: Althea Gibson winning Wimbledon.

wongqks
May 6th, 2002, 04:45 PM
That was 1991 US Open semis between Monica and Jennifer. Jennifer have a chance to serve for the match three times but everytime it is answered by even more agressive play from Monica. Monica eventually won in a third set tiebreak. Jennifer was in tears and have never really gone back to that level since (until last eyar of course)

The thing I think which is most cruel about this match is that afterwards, they have to do a on court interview, and the interviewer was so ahrsh on Jennifer, asking her whether she choked and ask her how dissappointed she is, which I think is really cruel.

vancouverite
May 6th, 2002, 05:13 PM
....hmmmm, interesting topic!

How about Hamburg quarters, 1993? Of course, what happened between the two players was dwarfed by what happened during a certain changeover, but the result may well have changed recent tennis history (assuming Seles continued her pre-stabbing form).

Also, Lipton semis and finals 1987 (I think...), when Graf routined Navratilova and Evert to win the title. I'd guess those two wins gave Steffi more belief than any of her previous matches that she belonged (despite her slight 'hiccups' at the Wimbledon and US Open finals) at the very top.

Majoli/Hingis 1997 French Open Final...God only knows what kind of roll Hingis would have continued had she won that match.

Evert/Navratilova French Open final 1986 - Chris's seventh victory staked her claim as the greatest clay court player of all time (at least, to date!).

Navratilova/Garrison Wimbledon final 1990 - Martina's ninth title stakes her claim as the greatest grass court player of all time (though by that time, her status was assured anyway...).

Good grief, so many more I'm thinking of as I type! Great thread:)

Rollo
May 6th, 2002, 05:16 PM
Yes, that match with Seles haunted Capriati for ages.

Beige, while Althea winning Wimbledon was a milestone, I actually think her first US Open match was more important. The USTA refued Althea's entries based on lack of results, a tortured logic since she couldn't break the color bar. A letter in 1950 by a former respected champ Alice Marble shamed the USTA into letting Althea enter. She drew top player Louise Brough and lost, but she took Louise to 3 sets. The match was interrupted by a huge storm where a thunderbolt hit and shattered a huge eagle atop the stadium. Some saw that as a sign.

It took Althea 7 more years to get a major title, but without breaking the barrier to begin with in 1950 she would have never made it.

Another huge match was Lenglen-Chambers in 1919. A world war had turned Europe upside down, and the 40 something Chambers was a respectable 7 time champ who still wore long sleeves and ankle length dresses. Her young opponent was a shocking (by 1919 standards) French girl who sipped brandy on changeovers and displayed her arms and legs. Some proper English women in 1919 walked out on her matches hissing "French hussy". Men became eager to see her.


An overflow crowd on finals day came out. Chambers was defending English honor vs. an invader, the contest had old vs. young, and even the King and Queen were there.

The battle of generations was a glory, going 3 long sets. Chambers twice had match point, and Suzanne saved one when she mishit an overhead off the wood and it just cleared the net.
Chambers hit a drop shot on another which hit the tape, bounced up, and landed on her side.

The women left court to a standing ovation. When invited to appear before the royals, both had to refuse, being unable to walk on blistered and bloody feet. Suzanne went on to become a symbol of the new woman of the 1920s, so popular that Wimbledon moved to it's new(and present) facility in 1923 largely due to her.

I'd pick the 1981 US Open as another historic event. Martina Navratilova lost in the finals, but got huge crowd support from an audience that knew she was gay. Her exciting brand of tennis was what mattered, not her sexuality. We know that now, but in 1981 many sponsors were afraid to support women's tennis because of the "lesbian thing" as some called it.

Debbie Foy
May 6th, 2002, 05:32 PM
us opens--88--stefsti beats gaby 63 36 61 to gets grands slams--maybe last grands slams for lady of singles ever......

VSFan1 aka Joshua L.
May 6th, 2002, 05:33 PM
For Venus: 2000 Wimbledon QF vs. Hingis

For Serena: 1999 US Open 3rd round vs. Clijsters

ys
May 6th, 2002, 05:34 PM
I don't think that any match has affected contemporary WTA tennis history more than some certain Seles-Maleeva match.:(

But other than that. I would imagine things could go different way should Anna Kournikova have finished Venus off in that Lipton final..

GoDominiqu
May 6th, 2002, 05:36 PM
Thanks Rollo for that story. I have heard of it as well and must have been a fantastic match. :)

I think they still had that stupid 'challenge round': the champion of the previous year only having to play one match - the Champions match against the winner of the 'normal' tournament.

In the following year, Lenglen was the defending champ, and who reached the match against her ? Chambers. :) But I think she lost badly.

GoDominiqu
May 6th, 2002, 05:39 PM
What about Lindsay winning the Olympics 1996 ?

Did that finally make her believe that she can reach the top ?

anabel
May 6th, 2002, 05:39 PM
French Open 89 ;)

Arantxa stopped Steffi of complete the Grand Slam for the 2nd year in a row, an achivament which would be almost impossible to get in the future

sartrista7
May 6th, 2002, 05:42 PM
Agree with ys re: the Anna K match. Also important was the 1998 Eastbourne QF where she beat Steffi - but where, importantly, she got that thumb injury. She hasn't played anywhere near that level since.

Amanda
May 6th, 2002, 05:46 PM
Venus Williams- Wimbledon Champion 2000--Remember her leaps of joy? Fantastic to see her finally getting there!:bounce:

PamShriverRockz
May 6th, 2002, 05:47 PM
I'd agree with Debbie Froy - US Open 88 - Steffi's grand slam was an amazing achievement, and may not be repeated many times or not in the distant future anyway.

LifeWasADisaster
May 6th, 2002, 06:50 PM
how about the 1st round at the AO 2001?
Capriati d. Nagyova 4-6 6-2 7-5

If capriati had lost that match, which she nearly did, would she have been where she is now? I doubt it. Who knows!

Randy H
May 6th, 2002, 07:00 PM
1988 Roland Garros Final Graf def. Zvereva 6-0, 6-0

I think Natasha's career could have been drastically different in singles had she not lost so handily in the finals. She was just so nervous, in 86 being the Junior champ, and then only a year later to suddenly find herself playing for the pro championship. After that her career never managed to be what it could have been, she often showed signs of bad nerves, and that halted her potential. She did show signs of life (Wimbledon 98 also should have been her final, but choked up in the semis), but unfortunately she will likely go down in the history books as one of the greatest doubles players of all time, but an underachiever in singles.

Dahveed
May 6th, 2002, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by vancouverite
Majoli/Hingis 1997 French Open Final...God only knows what kind of roll Hingis would have continued had she won that match.


And if Iva had lost this, she wouldn't have waited 5 years to get another title! :rolleyes:

Rollo
May 6th, 2002, 07:37 PM
Funny you mentioned the challenge round Go Dominique. Chambers wasn't planning on defending if a British woman won through, but she felt she had to fight the "French invasion". In those days her exact age wasn't known. It's hard to believe she was over 40!:eek: Chambers said the match was a double tragedy. Sad for her because it prevented her from an 8th Wimbledon title, a record later broken, and sad for Lenglen, who became obsessed with crushing all her opponents and being invincible.

BTW, where is your Dominique avatar. I miss her sweet face:)

GoDominiqu
May 6th, 2002, 07:41 PM
Thanks for reminding me, Rollo. :) I will restore it soon.

I deleted it when I had some fights here on the board and I couldn't imagine that Dominique would be smiling at all that. ;)

tennischick
May 6th, 2002, 07:43 PM
fantastic info Rollo! ever think of writing a book? Bud Collins will be pissed of course but you should consider it.

i think that there have been some legendary match-ups for the men as well. Guga winning the French certainly changed history for me.



Originally posted by Rollo
Yes, that match with Seles haunted Capriati for ages.

Beige, while Althea winning Wimbledon was a milestone, I actually think her first US Open match was more important. The USTA refued Althea's entries based on lack of results, a tortured logic since she couldn't break the color bar. A letter in 1950 by a former respected champ Alice Marble shamed the USTA into letting Althea enter. She drew top player Louise Brough and lost, but she took Louise to 3 sets. The match was interrupted by a huge storm where a thunderbolt hit and shattered a huge eagle atop the stadium. Some saw that as a sign.

It took Althea 7 more years to get a major title, but without breaking the barrier to begin with in 1950 she would have never made it.

Another huge match was Lenglen-Chambers in 1919. A world war had turned Europe upside down, and the 40 something Chambers was a respectable 7 time champ who still wore long sleeves and ankle length dresses. Her young opponent was a shocking (by 1919 standards) French girl who sipped brandy on changeovers and displayed her arms and legs. Some proper English women in 1919 walked out on her matches hissing "French hussy". Men became eager to see her.


An overflow crowd on finals day came out. Chambers was defending English honor vs. an invader, the contest had old vs. young, and even the King and Queen were there.

The battle of generations was a glory, going 3 long sets. Chambers twice had match point, and Suzanne saved one when she mishit an overhead off the wood and it just cleared the net.
Chambers hit a drop shot on another which hit the tape, bounced up, and landed on her side.

The women left court to a standing ovation. When invited to appear before the royals, both had to refuse, being unable to walk on blistered and bloody feet. Suzanne went on to become a symbol of the new woman of the 1920s, so popular that Wimbledon moved to it's new(and present) facility in 1923 largely due to her.

I'd pick the 1981 US Open as another historic event. Martina Navratilova lost in the finals, but got huge crowd support from an audience that knew she was gay. Her exciting brand of tennis was what mattered, not her sexuality. We know that now, but in 1981 many sponsors were afraid to support women's tennis because of the "lesbian thing" as some called it.

Rollo
May 6th, 2002, 08:42 PM
Thanks for the praise tennischick:) You make me blush:o

That's the avatar Go Dominique!:) Who would fight with you? Disagree, maybe, fight ? Who could fight after seeing Van Roost's face?


BTW, IF Clijsters gets to #1 and Henin wins a slam, that could be historic. Every #1 we've had in women's tennis was an American, Brit, Aussie, French or German. All from big nations or countries with a grand slam.

Only Maria Bueno(from Brazil) breaks the pattern. So if Kimmie or Juju gets there(or say Maria Sharapova in a few years) I think that's historic.

maccardel
May 6th, 2002, 08:55 PM
Venus winning Wimbledon 2000 was the turning point. Now the conversation about when will she win has faded...She along with her sister has become favs for almost every tourney they enter.

Rollo
May 6th, 2002, 09:01 PM
The sister-sister final last year will be remembered too, the US women's final becoming a prime time TV event. The match wasn't extraordinary by itself, but the ratings were.
We can only hope it will last and become a tradition :)

Pureracket
May 6th, 2002, 09:29 PM
Young Michael Chang's victory at the French Open('89) because of his youth (wasn't he like the youngest to win the FO or any Slam for that matter?) and the fact that it ushered in an era of American male dominance (Sampras, Agassi, Courier). You all remember that underhanded serve against Lendl?

babywhale
May 6th, 2002, 09:49 PM
i think the following matches changed tennis history in the following ways:

End of an era:

Federer - Sampras Wimbledon 2001 (confirmed the end of a legend)

Martinez-Navratilova Wimbledon 1994 (Martina should have won this match, but age clearly was a factor - she realised this finally)

Davenport-Graf Wimbledon 1999 (Graf finally deciding to call it quits shortly after this loss, despite being the best player so far in 1999)

Graf-Sanchez-Vicario, French Open, 1996 (ASV never the same threat again, though she did win Roland Garros in 1998)

Pierce-Martinez, French Open 2000 (Martinez never played with the same desire again, Pierce for different reasons has never been the same player)

Sabatini-Fernandez 1993 (Gaby is never the same force again)

Changed the course of a career

Kournikova-Williams, Key Biscayne 1998 (who knows what Anna might be doing now? Top-10 probably)

Davenport-Sanchez, Olympics 1996 (Lindsay finally got motivated and believed she could be a force)

Serena Williams-Hingis, US Open 1999 (Hingis overpowered by inexperienced hard-hitter, Serena's success motivating Venus)

Social Issues:

King-Riggs 1973? - Battle of the Sexes

Gibson winning Wimbledon in 1957

Rollo
May 6th, 2002, 10:01 PM
Chang was important for another reason too. Being Asian-Americam, he inspired a lot of people in Asia as the first Asian to win a slam :)

schris
May 6th, 2002, 11:02 PM
1988 US Open final - Steffi Graf completed Grand Slam - that was an incredible achievement – the most prestigious achievement there is in the field of tennis. She was only third woman in history who did it, but only ONE who did it on 4 different surfaces! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

moon
May 6th, 2002, 11:13 PM
during Wimby 2000, I felt like Vee's match against Hingis was the turning point. Before that, she hadn't beaten Hingis in a major, and you can bet that USO 99 was in the back of her mind. If Venus had lost that quaterfinal, we might still be waiting for her to win slams.

btw--I also think Serena beating Hingis at USO 99 was a great motivator for Venus.

fan of Jana
May 6th, 2002, 11:18 PM
I'd say the CHRISSIE/MARTINA final French 85' which was a turning point for women's tennis, and also the HANA/MARTINA' final US 85, which showed to a huge crowd (biggest women's final audience in the US till last year, that women's tennis could be all-offensive, thrilling, and more interisting than men's.

marsha
May 6th, 2002, 11:47 PM
I would add the following (and a little surprised no one else has mentioned this yet)

1995 Wimbledon Final -- Graf v. Sanchez-Vicario -- not only is it historic on a number of different levels, but it actually is in the history books as the match that featured a 32 point, twelve deuce game that, in my mind, will *always* stand out.

Chris Evert maintained in Tennis magazine about a year later that Arantxa couldn't shake this loss either (I'm not sure I agree; see the above post on the 1996 French Open Final).

But one thing is for sure -- added to the 1994 Wimbledon final, no Spanish woman would ever say again that "the grass is for the cows." ;)

baleineau
May 7th, 2002, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by marsha
I would add the following (and a little surprised no one else has mentioned this yet)

1995 Wimbledon Final -- Graf v. Sanchez-Vicario -- not only is it historic on a number of different levels, but it actually is in the history books as the match that featured a 32 point, twelve deuce game that, in my mind, will *always* stand out.

But one thing is for sure -- added to the 1994 Wimbledon final, no Spanish woman would ever say again that "the grass is for the cows." ;)

I don't see how it changed the course of history, either for Graf, ASV or tennis generally. Whilst a memorable and high quality match with the 32-point game, I don't think it is significant because it changed anything - ASV would still be a nemesis for Graf and a top player until 1997.

Things which change the course of tennis history do not necessarily include historic events. Namely, Graf winning the Grand Slam in 1988.

In terms of Spanish women (and claycourt players generally) and grass, Martinez changed all that in 1994 - even 1993 in making the semis)............one step further, Agassi in 1992 showed once again that baseliners could win the men's at Wimbledon against the power players in the new racket era. Recall that previous winners with the new rackets were Becker, Stich, Edberg, and Cash.

vishniac
May 7th, 2002, 01:17 AM
Changed the course of a career

The French Open final 1999.

RYNJ
May 7th, 2002, 01:27 AM
1993 Hamburg Quarters Seles vs Maleeva, NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT!!

tennischick
May 7th, 2002, 04:06 AM
Agassi's return to top form after plunging to #141 on the ATP Tour.

Rios making it to #1 -- the first South-American to do so if i am not mistaken. i think Vilas made it to #2.

THE NET
May 7th, 2002, 05:04 AM
Every matches that Anna Kournikova lost.

bello
May 7th, 2002, 05:32 AM
Sabatini Vs. Fernandez QF FRENCH 93

Sabatini Vs. Graf FINAL WIMBLEDON 91

Sabatini \Vs. Seles FRENCH SEMI 92

rhz
May 7th, 2002, 05:34 AM
Seles vs Maleeva in Hamburg

Riggs vs King

Kart
May 7th, 2002, 07:21 PM
Sabatini vs. Graf Wimbledon 1991

Sabatini vs. Huber 1991 sometime (Berlin ?)

Sabatini vs. Seles 1992 French open semi

Novotna vs. Hingis 1998 US open semi

If any of those matches had gone the other way then we would have seen Gaby or Jana at no.1 (not 100% about the Seles one).

Sadly they didn't :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: .

Not sure if anyone has already mentioned them.

Also, agree with ys about Kournikova vs Venus in Lipton.

Also Majoli 1997 stopped Hingis from winning the grand slam.

BCP
May 8th, 2002, 07:42 AM
Great thread guys, and great picks everyone! Kart, Gaby had so many pivitol matches, but I think that if she had won that Wimbeldon final, she would have finished with a vastly different career than she fifnished with- she would have been no 1 for starters....


How about the match where Monica was stabbed....you can't get more history making than that.

And the first time that Chris beat Martina in 1985 after losing to her 13 times straight. I think that that match breathed new life into the rivalry.

And I also agree about Steffi's victory at the Lipton in 85 (or was it 86), when she beat Chris and MArtina back to back.

Also MArtina's loss to Tracy Austin in the 1981 USO final. It was the start of super- Martina.

Also agree with Majoli's victory over Hingis- Hingis would have achieved the grandslam at 16- unbelievable!

So many good choices guys, and a great topic.:)

Wait til I get started on Hana's matches.......;)