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drake3781
Dec 28th, 2005, 09:26 PM
Pakistani Killed Daughters to Save 'Honor'

MULTAN, Pakistan - Nazir Ahmed appears calm and unrepentant as he recounts how he slit the throats of his three young daughters and their 25-year old stepsister to salvage his family's "honor" — a crime that shocked Pakistan.

The 40-year old laborer, speaking to The Associated Press in police detention as he was being shifted to prison, confessed to just one regret — that he didn't murder the stepsister's alleged lover too.

Hundreds of girls and women are murdered by male relatives each year in this conservative Islamic nation, and rights groups said Wednesday such "honor killings" will only stop when authorities get serious about punishing perpetrators.

The independent Human Rights Commission of Pakistan said that in more than half of such cases that make it to court, most end with cash settlements paid by relatives to the victims' families, although under a law passed last year, the minimum penalty is 10 years, the maximum death by hanging.

Ahmed's killing spree — witnessed by his wife Rehmat Bibi as she cradled their 3 month-old baby son — happened Friday night at their home in the cotton-growing village of Gago Mandi in eastern Punjab province.

It is the latest of more than 260 such honor killings documented by the rights commission, mostly from media reports, during the first 11 months of 2005.

Bibi recounted how she was woken by a shriek as Ahmed put his hand to the mouth of his stepdaughter Muqadas and cut her throat with a machete. Bibi looked helplessly on from the corner of the room as he then killed the three girls — Bano, 8, Sumaira, 7, and Humaira, 4 — pausing between the slayings to brandish the bloodstained knife at his wife, warning her not to intervene or raise alarm.

"I was shivering with fear. I did not know how to save my daughters," Bibi, sobbing, told AP by phone from the village. "I begged my husband to spare my daughters but he said, 'If you make a noise, I will kill you.'"

"The whole night the bodies of my daughters lay in front of me," she said.

The next morning, Ahmed was arrested.

Speaking to AP in the back of police pickup truck late Tuesday as he was shifted to a prison in the city of Multan, Ahmed showed no contrition. Appearing disheveled but composed, he said he killed Muqadas because she had committed adultery, and his daughters because he didn't want them to do the same when they grew up.

He said he bought a butcher's knife and a machete after midday prayers on Friday and hid them in the house where he carried out the killings.

"I thought the younger girls would do what their eldest sister had done, so they should be eliminated," he said, his hands cuffed, his face unshaven. "We are poor people and we have nothing else to protect but our honor."

Despite Ahmed's contention that Muqadas had committed adultery — a claim made by her husband — the rights commission reported that according to local people, Muqadas had fled her husband because he had abused her and forced her to work in a brick-making factory.

Police have said they do not know the identity or whereabouts of Muqadas' alleged lover.

Muqadas was Bibi's daughter by her first marriage to Ahmed's brother, who died 14 years ago. Ahmed married his brother's widow, as is customary under Islamic tradition.

"Women are treated as property and those committing crimes against them do not get punished," said the rights commission's director, Kamla Hyat. "The steps taken by our government have made no real difference."

Activists accuse President Gen. Pervez Musharraf, a self-styled moderate Muslim, of reluctance to reform outdated Islamized laws that make it difficult to secure convictions in rape, acid attacks and other cases of violence against women. They say police are often reluctant to prosecute, regarding such crimes as family disputes.

Statistics on honor killings are confused and imprecise, but figures from the rights commission's Web site and its officials show a marked reduction in cases this year: 267 in the first 11 months of 2005, compared with 579 during all of 2004. The Ministry of Women's Development said it had no reliable figures.

Ijaz Elahi, the ministry's joint secretary, said the violence was decreasing and that increasing numbers of victims were reporting incidents to police or the media. Laws, including one passed last year to beef up penalties for honor killings, had been toughened, she said.

Police in Multan said they would complete their investigation into Ahmed's case in the next two weeks and that he faces the death sentence if he is convicted for the killings and terrorizing his neighborhood.

Ahmed, who did not resist arrest, was unrepentant.

"I told the police that I am an honorable father and I slaughtered my dishonored daughter and the three other girls," he said. "I wish that I get a chance to eliminate the boy she ran away with and set his home on fire."

=======================

I have heard stories like this for a long time... your thoughts? Particularly interested in thoughts from those from countries where these acts occur.....

John A Roark
Dec 28th, 2005, 10:10 PM
So what do you say to something like this? I am sure that every right-thinking Moslem would denounce this immediately. There is surely no way to defend such a thing, is there?

drake3781
Dec 29th, 2005, 02:16 AM
So what do you say to something like this? I am sure that every right-thinking Moslem would denounce this immediately. There is surely no way to defend such a thing, is there?

I'd like to know; I mean it seems to continue over the years.

"It is the latest of more than 260 such honor killings documented by the rights commission, mostly from media reports, during the first 11 months of 2005".

There are also "honor" rapes, and "honor" mutilations such as burning the face with acid.

I guess the types of people/cultures where these acts are prevalent would not be in a community like this. But we do have a broad spectrum of nationalities represented, and some are a lot closer than I am... so I wonder what type of feedback there might be.

tennislover
Dec 29th, 2005, 10:35 AM
Horror news :scared:

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 29th, 2005, 11:00 AM
This happens all the time. Don't you love those traditional cultures? So warm and cuddly. :rolleyes:

Sevenseas
Dec 29th, 2005, 11:04 AM
So what do you say to something like this? I am sure that every right-thinking Moslem would denounce this immediately. There is surely no way to defend such a thing, is there?

Thank you so much for having faith in us, John. :worship:

We definitely denounce and condemn such primitive, evil so-called cultures, traditions. :fiery:

K.U.C.W-R.V
Dec 29th, 2005, 11:10 AM
Disgusting & despicable.

Where the hell is the 'honor' in butchering your supposedly adulterous daughter then pre-emptively slaughtering your other daughters just to be on the safe side.

...or maybe I just don't understand their culture?

Wigglytuff
Dec 29th, 2005, 12:16 PM
Horror news :scared:
agreed :sad:

SelesFan70
Dec 29th, 2005, 12:18 PM
Disgusting & despicable.

Where the hell is the 'honor' in butchering your supposedly adulterous daughter then pre-emptively slaughtering your other daughters just to be on the safe side.

...or maybe I just don't understand their culture?

Why would you want to understand something like that? :unsure:

K.U.C.W-R.V
Dec 29th, 2005, 12:51 PM
Why would you want to understand something like that? :unsure:

Don't worry I don't. That was an attempt at sarcasm. :)

Some people seem to think Westerners have no right to comment on other cultures - I disagree.

SelesFan70
Dec 29th, 2005, 01:27 PM
Don't worry I don't. That was an attempt at sarcasm. :)

Some people seem to think Westerners have no right to comment on other cultures - I disagree.

;) :wavey:

Fingon
Dec 29th, 2005, 03:06 PM
This happens all the time. Don't you love those traditional cultures? So warm and cuddly. :rolleyes:

I would like to know what those who said terrorists are in response by abuses suffered by muslim people have to say now.

This is the classical example, crimes like this not only go unpunished, or with little punishment, but also are encouraged.

Do you wonder what breed terrorists? here it's your answer, this line of thinking (calling it thinking is a poetic license), these "cultural" values.

If a man values more his honour than the lives of his own daughters, if he is capable of killing them in cold blood to save his "name", what can you expect? compared to this blowing yourself up to defend your religions seems like a minor thing.

Some would say that it's sinking to their level, but I think there is only one way that Pakistan and other conservative muslim nations can stop (or at least limit) this, and it's by getting really, really tough.

This man thinks he'll go to paradise, fine, let him go when his time comes, but since he is going to heaven, make the rest of his life here hell, really hell, keep him in a 2x2 cell for the rest of his life, make sure he doesn't kill himself or he doesn't see the sun light again, and make sure that everyone in the country knows that, maybe the next one that wants to protect his honour will think it twice when the cost will be living a nightmare for the next 30 years.

And yes, I don't believe in rehabilitation, I believe in hard, really tough punishment.

John A Roark
Dec 29th, 2005, 03:06 PM
Thank you so much for having faith in us, John. :worship:

We definitely denounce and condemn such primitive, evil so-called cultures, traditions. :fiery:
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Sevenseas again. :awww:

John A Roark
Dec 29th, 2005, 03:09 PM
And yes, I don't believe in rehabilitation, I believe in hard, really tough punishment.
Don't ever make a mistake, then, nor upset a privileged class of protected citizens... and for heaven's sake, don't let drugs ever get a foothold for any reason, your fault or not... :tape:
Other things could be said here, but I'll let them slide.

Fingon
Dec 29th, 2005, 03:09 PM
Thank you so much for having faith in us, John. :worship:

We definitely denounce and condemn such primitive, evil so-called cultures, traditions. :fiery:

Turkey is a model for other muslim countries, but unfortunately, not all of them have a Kemal (was that his name?) to carry on reforms.

He didn't do it with a soft hand btw, but Turkish today are enjoying the benefits of his reforms.

SelesFan70
Dec 29th, 2005, 03:10 PM
This happens all the time. Don't you love those traditional cultures? So warm and cuddly. :rolleyes:

And so misunderstood... :tape:

Fingon
Dec 29th, 2005, 03:13 PM
Don't ever make a mistake, then, nor upset a privileged class of protected citizens... and for heaven's sake, don't let drugs ever get a foothold for any reason, your fault or not... :tape:
Other things could be said here, but I'll let them slide.

I refer to crimes like this, a drug addict can be rehabilitated, a thief can be rehabilitated, a guy that kills his own daughter cannot, end of story. His life is not worth the cost of a bullet to kill him, the only thing that in my mind should keep him for being killed is that it would be just too good for him. And if I tell you what I would do to guys like him you would probably feel sick, but believe me, the "honour killers" would think it not once, but 1000 times before exposing themselves to that.

Just as a tip, this guy should be castrated, he obviously shouldn't be allowed to have children by any means, that's just the beginning.

Belmont Lad
Dec 29th, 2005, 04:12 PM
Women have been subjugated and terrorized by religious laws and church doctrine for centuries. Organized religion remains the greatest enemy of women's rights. All the five major world religions marginalize women in their male-dominated public rituals and texts. When laws are based on religious texts and teachings, the subjugation of women is usually a cornerstone. One must control women, and therefore human reproduction, in order to facilitate the continued growth of the particular religion. The widely accepted and seldom prosecuted practice of "honor killings" in countries under Islamic law is of particular concern. It is another example of the violence that has been perpetrated against women in history through unquestioned obeyance to religious dogma. The rights of women are universal, we are all created equal. Support international women's rights organizations in your communities and around the world.

tennisbum79
Dec 29th, 2005, 05:31 PM
Women have been subjugated and terrorized by religious laws and church doctrine for centuries. Organized religion remains the greatest enemy of women's rights. All the five major world religions marginalize women in their male-dominated public rituals and texts. When laws are based on religious texts and teachings, the subjugation of women is usually a cornerstone. One must control women, and therefore human reproduction, in order to facilitate the continued growth of the particular religion. The widely accepted and seldom prosecuted practice of "honor killings" in countries under Islamic law is of particular concern. It is another example of the violence that has been perpetrated against women in history through unquestioned obeyance to religious dogma. The rights of women are universal, we are all created equal. Support international women's rights organizations in your communities and around the world.

Great post.

But as Bill Mahr once said following the 911 attack. The difference between Christians and Moslems is that the majority of Christians do not believe in the literal teaching of the Bible, whereas a wide majority of Moslems do believe in the literal teaching of the Koran. And that leads to unfortunate and despicable event such as this one.



Of course we have Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and company, but not matter how vocal they are, their followers do not heed their calls

Fingon
Dec 29th, 2005, 05:42 PM
Women have been subjugated and terrorized by religious laws and church doctrine for centuries. Organized religion remains the greatest enemy of women's rights. All the five major world religions marginalize women in their male-dominated public rituals and texts. When laws are based on religious texts and teachings, the subjugation of women is usually a cornerstone. One must control women, and therefore human reproduction, in order to facilitate the continued growth of the particular religion. The widely accepted and seldom prosecuted practice of "honor killings" in countries under Islamic law is of particular concern. It is another example of the violence that has been perpetrated against women in history through unquestioned obeyance to religious dogma. The rights of women are universal, we are all created equal. Support international women's rights organizations in your communities and around the world.
you kind of pointed it out but I would like to emphasize it.
It is true that all religions subjugate women (unless the religions I know something about, I am not sure about budhism for example).
But reality is, all religions try to subjugate, period, the fact is however that women always got the worse part.
but, and big but, there is a huge difference between not allowing women to be priests and allowing honour killing, desfigurations or gang rape.
True, Christians, Jewish and others have been responsible of attrocities, many against women in the past, but that rarely happens now, they still discriminate but not to the extent islam does. At least other religions have evolved from their medieval or ancient origins and somehow adapted to the 21st century, islam as a whole has not.
They want to world to get the clock back to medieval times, that's their real aim, obviously, the problem is that both positions are not compatible, we can't live in the 21st century and have a big number or people wanting to live in 8th century or so, that's clearly not going to work, Bush or not Bush, Bin Laden or not Bin Laden. Until the muslim population as a whole realize this, there is no solution, and this won't happen overnight.
The problem is that the rest of the world cannot keep waiting for them to catch up with the times, that's why we will incresingly see them restricted in western countries, there will be a bigger and bigger gap between the muslim and non-muslim world, how will it end? I don't know.

K.U.C.W-R.V
Dec 29th, 2005, 05:55 PM
I would like to know what those who said terrorists are in response by abuses suffered by muslim people have to say now.

This is the classical example, crimes like this not only go unpunished, or with little punishment, but also are encouraged.

Do you wonder what breed terrorists? here it's your answer, this line of thinking (calling it thinking is a poetic license), these "cultural" values.

If a man values more his honour than the lives of his own daughters, if he is capable of killing them in cold blood to save his "name", what can you expect? compared to this blowing yourself up to defend your religions seems like a minor thing.

Some would say that it's sinking to their level, but I think there is only one way that Pakistan and other conservative muslim nations can stop (or at least limit) this, and it's by getting really, really tough.

This man thinks he'll go to paradise, fine, let him go when his time comes, but since he is going to heaven, make the rest of his life here hell, really hell, keep him in a 2x2 cell for the rest of his life, make sure he doesn't kill himself or he doesn't see the sun light again, and make sure that everyone in the country knows that, maybe the next one that wants to protect his honour will think it twice when the cost will be living a nightmare for the next 30 years.

And yes, I don't believe in rehabilitation, I believe in hard, really tough punishment.

In most cases I agree.

In the case of this evil f*ckwit, I'd like to see him boiled on Al-Jazeera.

Irish
Dec 29th, 2005, 06:59 PM
Turkey is a model for other muslim countries, but unfortunately, not all of them have a Kemal (was that his name?) to carry on reforms.

He didn't do it with a soft hand btw, but Turkish today are enjoying the benefits of his reforms.

Mustafa Kemal Ataturk :worship: :angel: :worship: :angel: :worship:

Chris 84
Dec 29th, 2005, 07:07 PM
What a surprise, this thread has quickly turned into a thread where everyone bashes Islam and the Muslim "culture". A barbaric act has undoubtedly been carried out, but this is NOT the fault of Islam, it is the fault of the murderer, and we have had plenty of people who have murdered, maimed and raped in the name of Christianity. This guy is in police custody at the moment, it isn't as if the government has let him go. He has committed a crime against humanity, but also against Islam.....while there are extremists in every religion, MUSLIMS DO NOT CONDONE THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOUR

Irish
Dec 29th, 2005, 07:18 PM
^^ I certainly do not bash Islam or Muslims and agree with your comments. :wavey:

John A Roark
Dec 29th, 2005, 07:19 PM
I spoke to a good friend, and he said, when I asked him about drinking and diet restrictions: "That legislation was written for different times."

Different times and different attitudes, indeed.
Much the same can be said for thinking of this nature.

Chris 84
Dec 29th, 2005, 07:20 PM
^^ I certainly do not bash Islam or Muslims and agree with your comments. :wavey:

Yeah, I'm sorry. Not everyone is bashing Islam, just certain posters. I apologise :o

tennisbum79
Dec 29th, 2005, 07:20 PM
What a surprise, this thread has quickly turned into a thread where everyone bashes Islam and the Muslim "culture". A barbaric act has undoubtedly been carried out, but this is NOT the fault of Islam, it is the fault of the murderer, and we have had plenty of people who have murdered, maimed and raped in the name of Christianity. This guy is in police custody at the moment, it isn't as if the government has let him go. He has committed a crime against humanity, but also against Islam.....while there are extremists in every religion, MUSLIMS DO NOT CONDONE THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOUR

I agree with you on the over generalization. But what is very outraggeous is here how some relatively open minded muslims seem to condone honor killings.
I have seen interviews of relative "modern" jordanians defending honor killing?
Then why is that most of these punishment tend to target women?

Has ever been a man killed by his family because he slept wih a woman before marriage?

Chris 84
Dec 29th, 2005, 07:25 PM
I agree with you on the over generalization. But what is very ouraggeous is here how some relatively open minded muslim seem to condone honor killings.
I have seen interviews of relative "modern" jordanians defending honor killing?
Then why is that most of these punishment tend to target women?

Has ever been a man killed by his family because he slept wih a woman before marriage?

I don't disagree with you that some of the ways in which women are treated in some Muslim countries are totally objectionable.

I just find it disgusting however, that, and I amn't talking about you here, certain posters have decided that Islam is the great evil and can't wait to attack it (while at the same time saying that everything is too PC and you can't attack Islam :rolleyes: )

Irish
Dec 29th, 2005, 07:26 PM
Yeah, I'm sorry. Not everyone is bashing Islam, just certain posters. I apologise :o

No worries at all Chris. :hug: :wavey: I meant to state I respect the religion and the people and agree with your comments. :worship:

drake3781
Dec 29th, 2005, 07:31 PM
What a surprise, this thread has quickly turned into a thread where everyone bashes Islam and the Muslim "culture". A barbaric act has undoubtedly been carried out, but this is NOT the fault of Islam, it is the fault of the murderer, and we have had plenty of people who have murdered, maimed and raped in the name of Christianity. This guy is in police custody at the moment, it isn't as if the government has let him go. He has committed a crime against humanity, but also against Islam.....while there are extremists in every religion, MUSLIMS DO NOT CONDONE THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOUR

I agree that it is wrong to take this as an opportunity to bash entire religions. I'm really quite curious about what it's like on the "Edge" where the different expressions of the religion meet....... hence realy asking for input from people who live in or have experience with these occurrences.

I do take some issue with the concept that it is just this man. "It is the latest of more than 260 such honor killings documented by the rights commission, mostly from media reports, during the first 11 months of 2005". And that is in Pakistan only! Sometimes in order to make a statistic more real to me (and I live in the US) I will translate it to US states. This statistic would look like 5 honor killings per US state in 2005 (again for the Pakistani killings only, and not counting the honor rapes and honor mutilations.) Now something like that would certainly get some notice.

Also I am under the impression that as you say, "MUSLIMS DO NOT CONDONE THIS BEHAVIOR", that some do and some do not. Correct or not? :confused:

dementieva's fan
Dec 29th, 2005, 07:32 PM
Turkey is a model for other muslim countries, but unfortunately, not all of them have a Kemal (was that his name?) to carry on reforms.

He didn't do it with a soft hand btw, but Turkish today are enjoying the benefits of his reforms.

Turkey is also experiencing a rise in radical islamist groups, I hope the people there don't bow down in front of those idiots :mad:

tennisbum79
Dec 29th, 2005, 07:34 PM
I don't disagree with you that some of the ways in which women are treated in some Muslim countries are totally objectionable.

I just find it disgusting however, that, and I amn't talking about you here, certain posters have decided that Islam is the great evil and can't wait to attack it (while at the same time saying that everything is too PC and you can't attack Islam :rolleyes: )

Yes, there is an ideological slant of US vs THEM in some posts.

(while at the same time saying that everything is too PC and you can't attack Islam :rolleyes: )

That seems to be a trend/tactic which is also used by biggots and racists before making racist comments.
First they claim it is PC to say certain things and that their freedom of speech of curtailed, then they go on to say the very things they say were forbidden by an "invisible" speech code.

Chris 84
Dec 29th, 2005, 07:36 PM
Also I am under the impression that as you say, "MUSLIMS DO NOT CONDONE THIS BEHAVIOR", that some do and some do not. Correct or not? :confused:

I would say that some Muslims may condone, or at least may not condemn such behaviour, but the vast majority of Muslims are opposed to such actions which is why this guy is in jail.

On the other hand, certain "Christians" condone the bombing to oblivion of innocent civilians, as well as the death penalty. The Catholic Church has been responsible for covering-up (and so, not condemning) countless cases of child abuse. In all organised religions there will be some people who are far too extreme and act in a wholly irreligious manner.

hingis-seles
Dec 29th, 2005, 10:43 PM
I live in Pakistan, although I should add, I'm from the elite, educated class of society, so may not necessarily have the same perspective as that of a villager. I don't and nobody that I do know condones such behavior. I find it disgusting. "Honor Killings" go against Islam and it's teachings. The whole concept of "honor killings" is jsut absolutely absurd. I've worked with HRCP (Human Rights Commission Pakistan) in the past, so I do have a fairly good idea of the situation. Like I've said before, the problem is not with the relgion. It's with uneducated Muslim Clerics (Maulvi's) who control the uneducated segment of the population by feeding them all this crap and rubbish. That's one of the biggest obstacles to development. The maulvi's are very powerful and they will not allow development because once the country and it's people start developing and getting educated, they'll start questioning the maulvi's and actually open the Quran and read it for themselves. If Pakistan develops, the maulvi's lose their positions of power in society.

I only go to the mosque for prayers, once a year (on Eid). The reason is because when I went on Friday's, the maulvi would give his lecture after the prayer, which I found to be highly objectionable (stuff such as bringing all "infidels" on the right path and if they don't come on the "right" path to destroy them). After that, I was like, I'm going to offer my prayers at home. It only makes sense. My faith is as strong as it's ever been and I offer all my prayers, but mostly in the comfort of my own home. I read the Quran on my own as well. It's all about applying logic.

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 29th, 2005, 11:33 PM
In my case, I didn't attack Islam as such. I attacked the culture in which this is condoned. That is a Muslim culture, but not all Muslim cultures are like that.

And for the record there are many things that are essentially true, and can be said forthrightly and anonymously here, that you could not say in public under your own name without threatening your career because of the political correctness police. Where I live, many things said here that I think are basically true could lead you to being charged with religious vilificaton. It is against the law to criticise or make fun of people based on their religion. That has been interpreted to include forthright criticism of the religion itself. You have to be very careful what you say and how you say it if you want to criticise religion and still be in a position to defend yourself in court.

Anyone who doubts that this is how far PC has gone in some countries is either very young and inexperienced or living in fantasy land.

Fingon
Dec 30th, 2005, 01:14 AM
What a surprise, this thread has quickly turned into a thread where everyone bashes Islam and the Muslim "culture". A barbaric act has undoubtedly been carried out, but this is NOT the fault of Islam,

as far as I know these are islamic traditions aren't they?

it is the fault of the murderer,


of course it is, but when you have an unusually high number of people that do the same, following their religion it makes you think doesn't it?

and we have had plenty of people who have murdered, maimed and raped in the name of Christianity.


sure, in the 18th century.

This guy is in police custody at the moment, it isn't as if the government has let him go.


Those acts go mostly unpunished, the reason why there are doing something now is because of the international outcry. The woman that was gang raped as a punishment to her brother said the police did nothing to help.

He has committed a crime against humanity, but also against Islam.....while there are extremists in every religion, MUSLIMS DO NOT CONDONE THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOUR

some muslims don't, but it's known the wide support barbaric acts have in some muslim countries.

Fingon
Dec 30th, 2005, 01:20 AM
I live in Pakistan, although I should add, I'm from the elite, educated class of society, so may not necessarily have the same perspective as that of a villager. I don't and nobody that I do know condones such behavior. I find it disgusting. "Honor Killings" go against Islam and it's teachings. The whole concept of "honor killings" is jsut absolutely absurd. I've worked with HRCP (Human Rights Commission Pakistan) in the past, so I do have a fairly good idea of the situation. Like I've said before, the problem is not with the relgion. It's with uneducated Muslim Clerics (Maulvi's) who control the uneducated segment of the population by feeding them all this crap and rubbish. That's one of the biggest obstacles to development. The maulvi's are very powerful and they will not allow development because once the country and it's people start developing and getting educated, they'll start questioning the maulvi's and actually open the Quran and read it for themselves. If Pakistan develops, the maulvi's lose their positions of power in society.

I only go to the mosque for prayers, once a year (on Eid). The reason is because when I went on Friday's, the maulvi would give his lecture after the prayer, which I found to be highly objectionable (stuff such as bringing all "infidels" on the right path and if they don't come on the "right" path to destroy them). After that, I was like, I'm going to offer my prayers at home. It only makes sense. My faith is as strong as it's ever been and I offer all my prayers, but mostly in the comfort of my own home. I read the Quran on my own as well. It's all about applying logic.

You certainly are in a better position than any of us to know the situation, and what you say somehow confirms what I think.

The problem is not in Karachi, or Islamabad, but the tribal areas, and yes, like it happened with other religions, clerics are more powerful when the population is uneducated and poor.

But I do think the government should take a tougher instance on this, I do know it's difficult to the pakistani government to access those areas, but really something needs to be done.

And there are other countries with similar problems, such as Indonesia or even Nigeria that isn't majority muslim. At the end of the day, it's a matter of education.

Maybe the right way to put is not to blame islam but the islamic clerics.

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 30th, 2005, 01:29 AM
Where I live, many things said here that I think are basically true could lead you to being charged with religious vilificaton. It is against the law to criticise or make fun of people based on their religion. That has been interpreted to include forthright criticism of the religion itself. You have to be very careful what you say and how you say it if you want to criticise religion and still be in a position to defend yourself in court.

To be more accurate, you'd have to say something very extreme to be charged with a criminal offence under the relevant legislation. But to be pursued for the civil relief provided under the legislation is a different story.

But more importantly, forthright discussion of these issues can easily ruin your career in many areas of the professions or academe, where the political correctness movement has prevailed to the extent that it is basically taboo to criticise other cultures or religions (even if you do so from an essentially left-wing viewpoint). Again, I am surprised at how naive some people are about this. It is the experience of this that has led to the backlash against political correctness. It's unfortunate, because a great deal of what is labeled as political correctness, and has been caught up in the backlash, partly thanks to the manipulations of genuinely right-wing people, is actually sensible (e.g. supporting women's equality, advocating gay rights, being pro-choice, etc.).

K.U.C.W-R.V
Dec 30th, 2005, 01:38 AM
In my case, I didn't attack Islam as such. I attacked the culture in which this is condoned. That is a Muslim culture, but not all Muslim cultures are like that.

And for the record there are many things that are essentially true, and can be said forthrightly and anonymously here, that you could not say in public under your own name without threatening your career because of the political correctness police. Where I live, many things said here that I think are basically true could lead you to being charged with religious vilificaton. It is against the law to criticise or make fun of people based on their religion. That has been interpreted to include forthright criticism of the religion itself. You have to be very careful what you say and how you say it if you want to criticise religion and still be in a position to defend yourself in court.

Anyone who doubts that this is how far PC has gone in some countries is either very young and inexperienced or living in fantasy land.

Exactly.

Sevenseas
Dec 30th, 2005, 07:11 AM
Turkey is a model for other muslim countries, but unfortunately, not all of them have a Kemal (was that his name?) to carry on reforms.

He didn't do it with a soft hand btw, but Turkish today are enjoying the benefits of his reforms.

That’s right, not every Muslim country has a founder and leader like Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, that’s the reason we have stated loud and clear that other Muslim countries should have developed modern government models and reforms so as to stand firmly against superstitions and bigotry in religion.

Back in the ancient history, bigotry had reached to an unbelievable point that it was far beyond the control of the government of Ottoman Empire, thus Atatürk had to take severe precautions and make drastic changes to eliminate the bigots that have already become terrorists. Those terrorists did not understand the “soft hand” methods; chaos, violence and ultimate evil were so much penetrated in their core that only physical force could prevent them from going any further. That was the reality in Ottoman Empire back then and Atatürk’s reforms were the only way out to build a modern country named Turkish Republic which is to unite with modern Western World.

Sevenseas
Dec 30th, 2005, 07:24 AM
In my case, I didn't attack Islam as such. I attacked the culture in which this is condoned. That is a Muslim culture, but not all Muslim cultures are like that.

The only thing that bothers me about the approach towards Islam on this board or in everyday life is the generalization. The wrongdoings of some “Muslims” (if they call themselves that way) cannot bind the true peaceful Muslims; we are not responsible for their actions.

If you specify it by saying, “some Muslims”, “some Muslim cultures” or cursing upon radical Islamic terrorists, that’s perfectly fine by me, I do the same anyway. :) But the generalization part is far beyond my comprehension and tolerance.

Sevenseas
Dec 30th, 2005, 07:25 AM
What a surprise, this thread has quickly turned into a thread where everyone bashes Islam and the Muslim "culture". A barbaric act has undoubtedly been carried out, but this is NOT the fault of Islam, it is the fault of the murderer, and we have had plenty of people who have murdered, maimed and raped in the name of Christianity. This guy is in police custody at the moment, it isn't as if the government has let him go. He has committed a crime against humanity, but also against Islam.....while there are extremists in every religion, MUSLIMS DO NOT CONDONE THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOUR

What can I say, my friend? :worship: :worship: :worship:

Sevenseas
Dec 30th, 2005, 07:38 AM
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Sevenseas again. :awww:

Thank you, John. :worship: You know that I do appreciate your kindness. :)

Experimentee
Dec 30th, 2005, 01:37 PM
The government definitely needs to do more to combat this problem. The fact that it is still prevalent shows that they are not doing enough. They should be doing more to educate people, and tougher punishments for those who commit these honor killings.

Sevenseas
Dec 30th, 2005, 01:52 PM
The government definitely needs to do more to combat this problem. The fact that it is still prevalent shows that they are not doing enough. They should be doing more to educate people, and tougher punishments for those who commit these honor killings.

Definitely.