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Halardfan
Dec 26th, 2005, 07:16 AM
I can't believe Italian footballer Paulo Di Canio's actions for Italian club Lazio...once upon a time I admired the guy, he is a great player, but the what we learn of him now is unforgivable, and frankly the attitude of the Italian authorities is a disgrace. A one match ban? A tiny fine? Some on the right in Italy I fear never faced up to their role in World War 2.

A little on the story...

LAZIO striker Paolo Di Canio is to appeal against a suspension and a fine imposed following a recent straight-arm salute, claiming that while the gesture is fascist it is not of a racist character.

"I am a fascist, not a racist," Di Canio said yesterday.

"I give the straight-arm salute because it is a salute from a camerata to camerati," he said using the Italian words for members of the late dictator Benito Mussolini's fascist movement. "The salute is aimed at my people. With the straight arm I don't want to incite violence and certainly not racial hatred."

Di Canio missed Lazio's game at Lecce on Wednesday after he was banned for one match and fined 10,000 Euros :rolleyes: for making the fascist-style salute during a recent Serie A match.

In his autobiography, Di Canio makes clear his admiration for Mussolini and he also wears a tattoo with the word 'Dux' - Latin for Duce, the name Mussolini gave himself during his rule over the country.

Di Canio was a member of Lazio's hardcore ultra fans before becoming a player - the Lazio ultras are known for their far-right sympathies and links.


Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, owner of AC Milan, this week said the salute "did not have any significance" and described the player as "an exhibitionist but a good lad". :eek:

CooCooCachoo
Dec 26th, 2005, 07:37 AM
Isn't this old news?

Shocking though :mad:

Chris 84
Dec 26th, 2005, 12:08 PM
I totally agree with you. He is a total disgrace and should receive a lengthy global ban in my opinion. He sparked crowd trouble when he first did it against Roma and then deliberately tried to wind up the notoriously left-wing Livorno fans by doing it at their stadium as well. Having got away with that (and receiving support from various far-right politicians), he did it yet again against Juve. He is an embarrassment to Lazio, to Italian football and to himself.

tennislover
Dec 26th, 2005, 01:24 PM
http://www.corriere.it/Media/Foto/2005/12_Dicembre/12/fdg/DICANIO.jpg

:o :o :o

on the other hand how about the Communist salute (the closed hand)?
I'd like it would be banned as well.....

Chris 84
Dec 26th, 2005, 01:37 PM
on the other hand how about the Communist salute (the closed hand)?
I'd like it would be banned as well.....

I am coming at it from a biased viewpoint, but the closed fist socialist salute is to do with solidarity and togetherness and doesn't have the same negative connotations as the fascist salute. For example, a Scottish socialist politician, Tommy Sheridan, didn't get into trouble for doing it in the parliament, whereas a fascist salute would surely have led to a suspension or even being banned from the parliament. Even the UK Nazi party have the sense not to give fascist salutes.

tennislover
Dec 26th, 2005, 01:42 PM
I am coming at it from a biased viewpoint, but the closed fist socialist salute is to do with solidarity and togetherness and doesn't have the same negative connotations as the fascist salute. For example, a Scottish socialist politician, Tommy Sheridan, didn't get into trouble for doing it in the parliament, whereas a fascist salute would surely have led to a suspension or even being banned from the parliament. Even the UK Nazi party have the sense not to give fascist salutes.
I see.
well I consider the closed fist the symbol of international communism= 85 million deaths in the world.......Have you ever read the book intitled " The black book on communism" ?

Lord Nelson
Dec 26th, 2005, 01:55 PM
In addition the Nazi salute actually copies the salute done by people saluting the Emperor during roman times. Di Canio is not a facist or a racist, he is simply honoring the Roman Empire which was noble and just.
Lets not forget that the Swastika was used for Centuries by people in India and is still used on mass today. I doubt that people who use it there are racists. Or even if they are the Hindu swastika is not a racist symbol and I sometmes use it when I go there. Many Italian football fans use it more than Germans, English fans etc.. because the salute as I said was originated by non-racist Romans during the Empire period. Ave Caesar!

Chris 84
Dec 26th, 2005, 02:01 PM
In addition the Nazi salute actually copies the salute done by people saluting the Emperor during roman times. Di Canio is not a facist or a racist, he is simply honoring the Roman Empire which was noble and just.
Lets not forget that the Swastika was used for Centuries by people in India and is still used on mass today. I doubt that people who use it there are racists. Or even if they are the Hindu swastika is not a racist symbol and I sometmes use it when I go there. Many Italian football fans use it more than Germans, English fans etc.. because the salute as I said was originated by non-racist Romans during the Empire period. Ave Caesar!

actually Di Canio has admitted he is a fascist, but I agree, it is not necessarily the same thing as racism

Chris 84
Dec 26th, 2005, 02:03 PM
I see.
well I consider the closed fist the symbol of international communism= 85 million deaths in the world.......Have you ever read the book intitled " The black book on communism" ?

I've never read the book, but I do understand your views. Any symbol can be perverted and used in a derogatory and offensive manner, although I would say that communism was not responsible for the millions of deaths, but rather a semi-fascist Stalinism

Pheobo
Dec 26th, 2005, 04:09 PM
Edit: ...nevermind. If he's doing it to rile up the crowds he should be punished.

WorldWar24
Dec 26th, 2005, 05:15 PM
Hitler stole it From Mussolini, who copied the old roman salute. It has the meaning you give it, but coming from an italian playing in a Roman club, it shouldn't be misinterpreted. And I agree that being a fascist is not the same as being a racist, just like being a communist doesn't mean you are open minded

And the swastika is an old hindu or buddhist symbol too, so if someone from these religions show up with it doesn't mean they are nazis

WorldWar24
Dec 26th, 2005, 05:18 PM
oh and Lazio's fans are mostly right-wing while A.S. Roma's fans are left-wing, so I think it's a little more complex than that, you should know what you're talking about before coming in and opinionating

raquel
Dec 26th, 2005, 08:23 PM
I used to love Paolo when he played for Celtic, but he always struck me as being a little bit unpredictable mentally. It was a stupid thing to do and he's well into his 30s now - it's not like he's some young kid getting all excited in the heat of the moment. He should have known better.

tennisbum79
Dec 26th, 2005, 08:48 PM
In addition the Nazi salute actually copies the salute done by people saluting the Emperor during roman times. Di Canio is not a facist or a racist, he is simply honoring the Roman Empire which was noble and just.
Lets not forget that the Swastika was used for Centuries by people in India and is still used on mass today. I doubt that people who use it there are racists. Or even if they are the Hindu swastika is not a racist symbol and I sometmes use it when I go there. Many Italian football fans use it more than Germans, English fans etc.. because the salute as I said was originated by non-racist Romans during the Empire period. Ave Caesar!

The swastika may have Hindu ancestral lineage, but today, it is widely identified with the Nazi and the atrocities they commited clad under that symbol. That is why it is unacceptable by most societies today to use that symbol
Likewise, the salute is widely associated with the facists, who brought shame and dishonor to Italy and Italians.

tennisbum79
Dec 26th, 2005, 08:51 PM
Few posters have now mentioned how right-wing are some italians football fans?

For someone who does not follow European football, how do they (the supportters) treat non-white players of their club.

tennislover
Dec 26th, 2005, 08:56 PM
The swastika may have Hindu ancertral lineage, but today, it is widely identified with the Nazi and the atrocities they commited clad under thta symbol. That is why it is unacceptable by most societies today to use that symbol
right



Likewise, the salute is widely associated with the facists, who brought shame and dishonor to Italy and Italians.

true :sad: :sad: :sad:

Chris 84
Dec 26th, 2005, 08:57 PM
Few posters have now mentioned how right-wing are some italians football fans?

For someone who does not follow European football, how do they (the supportters) treat non-white players of their club.

I've never attended an Italian football match, but it tends to be non-white players of other clubs who get the abuse rather than their own players. However, judging from tv pictures doesn't always give an accurate picture...

tennislover
Dec 26th, 2005, 08:59 PM
I've never attended an Italian football match, but it tends to be non-white players of other clubs who get the abuse rather than their own players.

right
non-white-players are usually cuddled by their own fans

polishprodigy
Dec 26th, 2005, 09:14 PM
With a President in Italy who owns parts of the media as well as sports teams, its no wonder little was done with this situation.

At least in Canada, Paul Martin pretends to have no involvement with his steamship company.

Halardfan
Dec 26th, 2005, 09:22 PM
As people have mentioned, Di Canio did not deny he was a fascist, did not say oh it was just a joke...it was serious saulte from a fascist player to a fascist element in the Lazio support which is tolerated in Italy in a way that it simply would not be in Britain...or indeed somehwere like Germany. Im amazed that some people think it somehow understandable.

I believe that Germany faced and confronted the horrors of its WW 2 legacy, and that the likes of Di Canio, espousing their glowing admiration for a muderous, pathetic figure like Mussolini, need to to do the same.

Lazio fans have a miserable reputation, one growing worse by the day.

tennisbum79
Dec 26th, 2005, 09:31 PM
As people have mentioned, Di Canio did not deny he was a fascist, did not say oh it was just a joke...it was serious saulte from a fascist player to a fascist element in the Lazio support which is tolerated in Italy in a way that it simply would not be in Britain...or indeed somehwere like Germany. Im amazed that some people think it somehow understandable..
I agree with your assessment. Some posters rather treat him as if he was a little boy who did not know what he was doing and who will eventaully grow out of it.

I believe that Germany faced and confronted the horrors of its WW 2 legacy, and that the likes of Di Canio, espousing their glowing admiration for a muderous, pathetic figure like Mussolini, need to to do the same.
Agree again. Germany seemed to have faced his faccist past more seriously than Italy seem to demonstrate here.

Correct me if I am wong, but was not Musollini's daugther running for office espousing some of her father ideolofy?
That could not happen in Germany.

WorldWar24
Dec 26th, 2005, 10:08 PM
Few posters have now mentioned how right-wing are some italians football fans?

For someone who does not follow European football, how do they (the supportters) treat non-white players of their club.

It's not an issue really. Football(soccer) has brought people together, I think. Players are treated with every due respect, though there have been cases of racism but between players, lfor example during a match - I don't remember who did it but some years ago Patrick Vieira(black french player) accused some brit of the other team of racism, before PVieira attacked him and got sent off. Vieira is known for being "nervous" so it was probably planned to tease him and it succeeded. It doesn't mean the player was racist, I think he did it just to get Vieira crazed, and it's not like that is difficult to achieve and players usually annoy these nervous kind of players to get them sent off.

Anyway I don't think race is an issue in football at all. There are national sides with plenty of black players, like The Netherlands, France, and they are some of the best. I don't think anyway gives much thought about it, which is a good sign.
As for what you said about italians football fans being right-wing, it doesn't make sense in my opinion. You can't generalize really. ITalians love football, that is all. It has nothing to do with being right or left-wing. It just happens that, traditionally, AS Roma has been linked to being a club that represents most of the Roman population, while Lazio is a club with much fewer fans, one being more popular and left-wing and the other right-wing, but it doesn't mean Lazio fans are fascist and AS Roma's are communists. Most people fall somewhere in the middle, I'm sure

polishprodigy
Dec 26th, 2005, 10:28 PM
Correct me if I am wong, but was not Musollini's daugther running for office espousing some of her father ideolofy?
That could not happen in Germany.

I also stand to be corrected, but Mussolini's grand-daughter is the leader of a far right party that has considerable support in Italy. In general, Italy is becoming much more fascist and anti-immigrant, particularly anti-North African where most of its immigrants come from.

azdaja
Dec 26th, 2005, 10:52 PM
I see.
well I consider the closed fist the symbol of international communism= 85 million deaths in the world.......Have you ever read the book intitled " The black book on communism" ?
that book is rubbish though.

*JR*
Dec 26th, 2005, 11:16 PM
Keep in mind (and I'm certainly not a Fascist) that if not for Hitler, Mussolini would have been "one more garden variey despot" of the last century. He wasn't even anti-Semitic, except to get Hitler's help for his wacky dream of a "New Roman Empire".

He actually helped the allies, as his incompetent army got bogged down in Greece in 1941, requiring German help that delayed Hitler's invasion of the USSR from March to June. And he lost most of North Africa to the British, requiring Hitler to send Rommel and a great many troops there.

Spain's Franco, Portugal's Salazar, Paraguay's Stroessner, Chile's Pinochet and others were all post WW II Fascist dictators who the US found "useful" in the Cold War, of course. If not for Hitler's racial and religious bigotry, Fascism might even be a historical footnote today.

BTW, Alessandra Mussolini does lead a Fascist Party, but the now more moderate party it broke away from (led by current Italian Foreign Minister Gianfranco Fini) :o has a lot more support.

tennisbum79
Dec 26th, 2005, 11:17 PM
It's not an issue really. Football(soccer) has brought people together, I think. Players are treated with every due respect, though there have been cases of racism but between players, lfor example during a match - I don't remember who did it but some years ago Patrick Vieira(black french player) accused some brit of the other team of racism, before PVieira attacked him and got sent off. Vieira is known for being "nervous" so it was probably planned to tease him and it succeeded. It doesn't mean the player was racist, I think he did it just to get Vieira crazed, and it's not like that is difficult to achieve and players usually annoy these nervous kind of players to get them sent off.

Anyway I don't think race is an issue in football at all. There are national sides with plenty of black players, like The Netherlands, France, and they are some of the best. I don't think anyway gives much thought about it, which is a good sign.
As for what you said about italians football fans being right-wing, it doesn't make sense in my opinion. You can't generalize really. ITalians love football, that is all. It has nothing to do with being right or left-wing. It just happens that, traditionally, AS Roma has been linked to being a club that represents most of the Roman population, while Lazio is a club with much fewer fans, one being more popular and left-wing and the other right-wing, but it doesn't mean Lazio fans are fascist and AS Roma's are communists. Most people fall somewhere in the middle, I'm sure

Again, I am not familiar with the topic.
However I remember reading the cancellation of an exhibition match to combat racism. And the circmstances are not clear to me,

I have also heard of Italians fans shouting racial insults at visiting black palyers and their teammates do nothing about it. But these are just hear-say and I have no reliable sources to support these allegations.

Giuliano
Dec 26th, 2005, 11:51 PM
Keep in mind (and I'm certainly not a Fascist) that if not for Hitler, Mussolini would have been "one more garden variey despot" of the last century. He wasn't even anti-Semitic, except to get Hitler's help for his wacky dream of a "New Roman Empire".

He actually helped the allies, as his incompetent army got bogged down in Greece in 1941, requiring German help that delayed Hitler's invasion of the USSR from March to June. And he lost most of North Africa to the British, requiring Hitler to send Rommel and a great many troops there.

Spain's Franco, Portugal's Salazar, Paraguay's Stroessner, Chile's Pinochet and others were all post WW II Fascist dictators who the US found "useful" in the Cold War, of course. If not for Hitler's racial and religious bigotry, Fascism might even be a historical footnote today.

BTW, Alessandra Mussolini does lead a Fascist Party, but the now more moderate party it broke away from (led by current Italian Foreign Minister Gianfranco Fini) :o has a lot more support.
Since when were Franco and Salazar fascists? Conservatives, traditionalists, corporatists maybe, but not fascists. They were stuck in the past.

*JR*
Dec 26th, 2005, 11:52 PM
She may be a fascist bitch, but Alessandra is hot! :o

http://www.aseuropa.it/foto/10.jpg

tennisbum79
Dec 27th, 2005, 12:00 AM
Since when were Franco and Salazar fascists? Conservatives, traditionalists, corporatists maybe, but not fascists. They were stuck in the past.

Franco is definetely considered in recorded history as a Facist.
You're gona have to take issue with a lot of historians.

*JR*
Dec 27th, 2005, 12:00 AM
Since when were Franco and Salazar fascists? Conservatives, traditionalists, corporatists maybe, but not fascists. They were stuck in the past.
Uh, since Franco came to power in the Spanish Civil War, based on the active military help of Hitler and Mussolini? Again, fascism (much as I detest it) is NOT a watered-down synonym for Nazism. In fact, 2/3 of your description of the Iberian duo (traditionalists, in terms of strict Catholic social mores, plus an economy "of, by, and for" the big corporations) is a more accurate definition. The racism associated with fascism today is more a vestige of Nazism.

Giuliano
Dec 27th, 2005, 12:09 AM
Uh, since Franco came to power in the Spanish Civil War, based on the active military help of Hitler and Mussolini? Again, fascism (much as I detest it) is NOT a watered-down synonym for Nazism. In fact, 2/3 of your description of the Iberian duo (traditionalists, in terms of strict Catholic social mores, plus an economy "of, by, and for" the big corporations) is a more accurate definition. The racism associated with fascism today is more a vestige of Nazism.
The help of Hitler and Mussolini doesn't make Franco a fascist. The Soviet Union was helping the republicans on the other side of the war.
Fascism promoted the idea of a "new man" (l'uomo nuovo). Franco and Salazar never did that.
And Franco was recorded as a fascist partly because of the Phalange group, but he never was one in facts.

*JR*
Dec 27th, 2005, 12:32 AM
The help of Hitler and Mussolini doesn't make Franco a fascist. The Soviet Union was helping the republicans on the other side of the war.
Fascism promoted the idea of a "new man" (l'uomo nuovo). Franco and Salazar never did that.
And Franco was recorded as a fascist partly because of the Phalange group, but he never was one in facts.
Re. Soviet aid to the Spanish Republicans, "a drowning man doesn't ask what color a life preserver is". Meaning that Britain, France, etc. wouldn't lift a finger for them, whereas Stalin seized the opportunity to extend his influence if they won, and test out new weapons either way.

The "new man" stuff goes back to Nietzsche and earlier philosophers, Kings, etc. who fantasized about playing God; Mussolini was just "one in a long line" re. that. (I must admit that the only Phalangists I know much about were a faction in Lebanon's civil war of 1976-90).

Giuliano
Dec 27th, 2005, 12:51 AM
Re. Soviet aid to the Spanish Republicans, "a drowning man doesn't ask what color a life preserver is". Meaning that Britain, France, etc. wouldn't lift a finger for them, whereas Stalin seized the opportunity to extend his influence if they won, and test out new weapons either way.

The "new man" stuff goes back to Nietzsche and earlier philosophers, Kings, etc. who fantasized about playing God; Mussolini was just "one in a long line" re. that. (I must admit that the only Phalangists I know much about were a faction in Lebanon's civil war of 1976-90).
France didn't lift a finger for the republicans because one of the major parties (the "radicals") were against an intervention, but the frontiers were not proof. Weapons and volunteers could go to Spain (see André Gide), and the British gov. didn't want/wasn't ready to be confronted to the fascist powers yet.

And the fascist powers also wanted to gain something from the situation. Mussolini wanted to control Western Mediterranean Sea and hopefully a military base in Gibraltar. Hitler was thinking about the Anschluss and was not unhappy to see Mussolini remove soldiers from the Brenner. He also was interested in spanish copper and iron.

Blah, it's too late for me. This must be full of grammar mistakes :lol:, and this thread certainly isn't the best place to discuss Spanish War. We'll continue this later. ;)

:wavey:

polishprodigy
Dec 27th, 2005, 01:26 AM
She may be a fascist bitch, but Alessandra is hot! :o


http://www.aseuropa.it/foto/10.jpg

That flag in the picture even looks like a nazi flag

Halardfan
Dec 27th, 2005, 06:01 AM
Racism remains a real problem in football...though at least in Britain the authorities have made genuine efforts to curb it, with signifincant success...which is why its shocking how often when England/English clubs play internationally how often racist chanting etc takes place against our teams black players.

Other countries must get serious with this as the FA here have been. Uefa and Fifa have long been pathetically weak on this issue.

tennislover
Dec 27th, 2005, 09:26 AM
I also stand to be corrected, but Mussolini's grand-daughter is the leader of a far right party that has considerable support in Italy. In general, Italy is becoming much more fascist and anti-immigrant, particularly anti-North African where most of its immigrants come from.

1) considerable support? 1% of population is considerable support?I even don't know the name of that party
2) more fascist? I don't think so......only emarginated people can be fascist in Italy
3) anti-immigrant? mmmmmmmmmm

tennislover
Dec 27th, 2005, 09:28 AM
that book is rubbish though.
it was written by world-top level French historians

tennislover
Dec 27th, 2005, 09:31 AM
It's not an issue really. Football(soccer) has brought people together, I think. Players are treated with every due respect, though there have been cases of racism but between players, lfor example during a match - I don't remember who did it but some years ago Patrick Vieira(black french player) accused some brit of the other team of racism, before PVieira attacked him and got sent off. Vieira is known for being "nervous" so it was probably planned to tease him and it succeeded. It doesn't mean the player was racist, I think he did it just to get Vieira crazed, and it's not like that is difficult to achieve and players usually annoy these nervous kind of players to get them sent off.

Anyway I don't think race is an issue in football at all. There are national sides with plenty of black players, like The Netherlands, France, and they are some of the best. I don't think anyway gives much thought about it, which is a good sign.
As for what you said about italians football fans being right-wing, it doesn't make sense in my opinion. You can't generalize really. ITalians love football, that is all. It has nothing to do with being right or left-wing. It just happens that, traditionally, AS Roma has been linked to being a club that represents most of the Roman population, while Lazio is a club with much fewer fans, one being more popular and left-wing and the other right-wing, but it doesn't mean Lazio fans are fascist and AS Roma's are communists. Most people fall somewhere in the middle, I'm sure

balanced description :worship:

tennislover
Dec 27th, 2005, 09:35 AM
Since when were Franco and Salazar fascists? Conservatives, traditionalists, corporatists maybe, but not fascists. They were stuck in the past.
not that wrong.....
I think that Franco was a dictator interested in conserving his freedom&democracy-killer regime more than being considered fascist....
His fascismus was only facade

BUBI
Dec 27th, 2005, 09:45 AM
Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, owner of AC Milan, this week said the salute "did not have any significance" and described the player as "an exhibitionist but a good lad". :eek:
Here's the "good lad". See the love in his eyes :tape:

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2005/03/11/di_canio,0.jpg
http://pub.tv2.no/multimedia/na/archive/00176/Di_Canio_176037c.jpg

tennislover
Dec 27th, 2005, 09:58 AM
http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2005/03/11/di_canio,0.jpg
http://pub.tv2.no/multimedia/na/archive/00176/Di_Canio_176037c.jpg

:scared: :scared:

BUBI
Dec 27th, 2005, 10:03 AM
:scared: :scared:
I must ask this... do you support Berlusconi??? :scared:

tennislover
Dec 27th, 2005, 10:13 AM
I must ask this... do you support Berlusconi??? :scared:
well you know, I don't dislike him.....
he is a quite moderate man, and most of blames against him are pure legends.....
unfortunately he is as hated here as Bush in the USA.....
but on the other hand millions of people vote him (like Americans vote Bush)
the real proble is that left-wing parties are not very reliable in Italy, they are the heir of the old nomenklatura who ruled italy in !945-1990 period so......

BUBI
Dec 27th, 2005, 10:20 AM
well you know, I don't dislike him.....
he is a quite moderate man, and most of blames against him are pure legends.....

So it's not true that he owns half of the country + all the biggest tv-channels? :lol:

tennislover
Dec 27th, 2005, 11:02 AM
So it's not true that he owns half of the country + all the biggest tv-channels? :lol:

1)he is very very rich.
2) if you watch the news programmes on his channels, 2 channels out of three are quite unbiased
Before the development of those channels, in Italy there were only the public channels that were really dominated by the most influencial parties and so information in Italy was not free

azdaja
Dec 27th, 2005, 11:39 AM
it was written by world-top level French historians
it's still rubbish. you know when some people say that christianity is the most murderous ideology ever? well, that book was written that way, with similar arguments, only it's about communism. i suppose it has a receptive audience, but as a work on history it's poor.

tennislover
Dec 27th, 2005, 11:49 AM
it's still rubbish. you know when some people say that christianity is the most murderous ideology ever? well, that book was written that way, with similar arguments, only it's about communism. i suppose it has a receptive audience, but as a work on history it's poor.

I see.

but one can deny that the numbers they give are exact?
all over the world Communist regimes left 80 millions of deaths in XX century.

Andy_
Dec 27th, 2005, 11:55 AM
well you know, I don't dislike him.....
he is a quite moderate man, and most of blames against him are pure legends.....
unfortunately he is as hated here as Bush in the USA.....
but on the other hand millions of people vote him (like Americans vote Bush)
the real proble is that left-wing parties are not very reliable in Italy, they are the heir of the old nomenklatura who ruled italy in !945-1990 period so......

You gotta be kidding! :cuckoo:

Thanks for the big laugh! :lol: :haha:

tennislover
Dec 27th, 2005, 12:00 PM
You gotta be kidding! :cuckoo:

Thanks for the big laugh! :lol: :haha:

1)caro, a uno come berl non conviene essere estremista
2) è vero, i libri di storia ne stanno incominciando a parlare da poco: mai sentito dire di "consociativismo"? per cinquant' anni DC & PCI si sono spartiti la torta e buona notte alla democrazia.....ebbene gli attuali esponenti della sinistra sono gli eredi di quei signori

azdaja
Dec 27th, 2005, 12:30 PM
I see.

but one can deny that the numbers they give are exact?
all over the world Communist regimes left 80 millions of deaths in XX century.
the problem with those numbers is that they include quite different stuff - civil wars, famine (the largest part of that number was from the famine in china if i remember correctly, but famine was not really a communist invention and such things happened in other parts of the developing world as well) and proper executions and terror, which is in my opinion entirely wrong. especially because then you have people comparing that to the crimes of nazis, which were clearly terror and industrial genocide (and occured within a shorter period of time and within a much smaller population). it's not surprising that neo-nazis love that book.

tennislover
Dec 27th, 2005, 12:45 PM
the problem with those numbers is that they include quite different stuff - civil wars, famine (the largest part of that number was from the famine in china if i remember correctly, but famine was not really a communist invention and such things happened in other parts of the developing world as well) and proper executions and terror, which is in my opinion entirely wrong. especially because then you have people comparing that to the crimes of nazis, which were clearly terror and industrial genocide (and occured within a shorter period of time and within a much smaller population). it's not surprising that neo-nazis love that book.

you don't need to be nazi to appreciate that book
that book has got this merit: (after Solgenitzin "Archipelag Gulag") it was the first, public accuse of communist crimes in western world (above all in Europe)
for decades in Europe accusing comunism was almost a taboo: everyone was horrified (fairly) about Nazi horrors but about communists abuses and horrors we were blind
that book opened our eyes, in some way

imho nazism and communism were quite similar: the same contempt of human life and of human rights

~ The Leopard ~
Dec 28th, 2005, 09:19 AM
It's beyond me why anyone would want to associate himself with that period in Italian history. I keep thinking of the movie 1900.

Then again, just look at this guy. Not someone you'd want to meet in a dark alley.

I dunno, doesn't making an extreme political gesture like this bring the game into disrepute? I'm not denying his right to freedom of political expression as an individual in some other context, but you'd think doing it right there in the stadium like that would breach whatever contractual arrangement he has with whoever runs soccer in Europe - so much so that I'm surprised he hasn't been warned not to do it again or he'll be rubbed out. But I guess that's up to them, not me. It's soccer's image that's on the line, not mine.