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Geisha
Dec 15th, 2005, 10:19 PM
Who is the Greatest Women's Tennis Player of All-Time?

Vote and state "why" you chose that certain player.

Volcana
Dec 15th, 2005, 10:30 PM
58 Open Era GS titles on all surfaces, and she's a competitive doubles player today, at 48 years old.

timafi
Dec 15th, 2005, 10:32 PM
Madame Lenglen :hatoff: :hatoff: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Geisha
Dec 15th, 2005, 10:33 PM
I choose Martina Navratilova and Helen Wills Moody as the Greatest Female Tennis Players of All-Time. I choose them for many reasons. I'll start with Navratilova.

167 singles titles won - 1st all-time
1,438 singles matches won - 1st all-time
109 match winning streak w/ Pam Shriver - 1st all-time
162 doubles titles won - 1st all-time
1000+ doubles matches won - 1st all-time
390 doubles matches won w/ Pam Shriver - 1st all-time
Most total titles won
18 Grand Slams in Singles
competed against: Court, Graf, Goolagong, Seles, Evert, and the other greats

LH2HBH
Dec 15th, 2005, 10:35 PM
Martina - hands down... and I don't even like her

tennis aus
Dec 15th, 2005, 10:42 PM
I choose Martina Navratilova and Helen Wills Moody as the Greatest Female Tennis Players of All-Time. I choose them for many reasons. I'll start with Navratilova.

167 singles titles won - 1st all-time
1,438 singles matches won - 1st all-time
109 match winning streak w/ Pam Shriver - 1st all-time
162 doubles titles won - 1st all-time
1000+ doubles matches won - 1st all-time
390 doubles matches won w/ Pam Shriver - 1st all-time
Most total titles won
18 Grand Slams in Singles
competed against: Court, Graf, Goolagong, Seles, Evert, and the other greats


Great choices LTL.

Rollo
Dec 15th, 2005, 10:49 PM
Helen Wills
She won 19 slams (and an Olympics) without ever going to Australia.

8 Wimbledons (only lost once at the Championships)
7 US
4 French (won all 4 times she entered)

Helen was undefeated from 1927 to 1933-winning at least 150 straight-a record no one else approaches.

FrauleinSteffi
Dec 15th, 2005, 10:55 PM
Steffi Graf heres why:

Why Steffi Graf is the greatest ever.

· Steffi is the ONLY player (man or woman) to have won a Golden Grand Slam - winning the four Grand Slam titles - the Australian Open, the French Open, Wimbledon and the US Open - in a single calendar year - 1988. In that year, Steffi also won the Olympic Gold Medal in Seoul - hence the name Golden Grand Slam.
·Steffi has won her 22 Grand Slam on four different surfaces - Rebound Ace at Flinders Park, Clay at Roland Garros, Grass at Wimbledon and cement Hard Court at Flushing Meadow. This fact, in itself, makes Steffi's Grand Slam unique.
· Steffi is the ONLY player (either male or female) to have won all four of the Grand Slam events at least 4 times.
· Steffi is the ONLY player (either male or female) to have won each of the four Grand Slam events in singles AND TO HAVE SUCCESSFULLY DEFENDED each and every one
· Steffi is one of only two players (either male or female) to have won the French Open and Wimbledon in the same year and to have done so four times. She achieved this in 1988, 1993, 1995 and 1996. Helen Wills Moody did it in 1928, 1929, 1930 and 1932. Bjorn Borg achieved it three times - 1978, 1979 and 1980
· Steffi had already won 7 Wimbledon titles by the age of 27
· It took Steffi only 9 years between her first and her eighteenth Grand Slam titles, while it took Margaret Court 11 years, and Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova 13 years each.
· Steffi holds the record for any player (either male or female) for the number of consecutive weeks as number 1 in the world - 186 weeks between 17th August 1987 and 10th March 1991.
· Steffi is the only player (either male or female) to have won all four Grand Slam singles titles in the 80s AS WELL AS in the 90s
· By winning the 1994 Australian Open, Steffi became only the second woman (Martina Navratilova was the other doing it in 1983/84) to win a non-calendar year Grand Slam, having already won the 1993 French Open, Wimbledon and US Open titles.
· Steffi holds the record for consecutive appearances in Grand Slam finals at 13 - from the 1987 French Open up to the 1990 French Open
· Steffi has won at least 3 Grand Slam titles in five different years - in 1988 she won all 4; in 1989 and 1993 she won 3 and was a finalist in the fourth; in 1995 and 1996 she won all three of the Grand Slams she played.
· Steffi has earned an Olympic Gold Medal (1988 at Seoul), a Silver Medal ( 1992 at Barcelona) and a Bronze Medal (1988 at Seoul in doubles).
· Steffi won the Lipton 5 times - a record for a man or woman. The Lipton is the biggest tournament outside the Grand Slams.
· Between 1986 and 1996, Steffi won at least 7 titles every year. Also she won at least one Grand Slam title every year between 1987 and 1996.
· Steffi has been the World Champion of Tennis seven times in ten years - 1987 to 1990, 1993 and 1995 and 1996. Seven times is a world record.
· Steffi has been the Corel WTA Player of the Year 1987 to 1990 and 1993 to 1996.
· Steffi holds a winning record against every significant player she has ever played, except Martina Navratilova (9-9) and Tracy Austin (1-1).
· Steffi holds the record as the player who has held the number 1 ranking in the world for the l o n g e s t period of time. As of the 24th March 1997, she had been in the top position for 377 weeks (over 7 years). The previous record was 331 weeks which was held by Martina Navratilova.
· Steffi won 107 titles
enough said...Merry Christmas...... I do think Monica & Martina N & H & Chrissie & M. Cort & King & Willis & Maureen are all the best players ever women but Steffi tops the list:)

VSFan1 aka Joshua L.
Dec 15th, 2005, 11:01 PM
Martina - because not only was she fabulously awesome in singles, but doubles as well - representing a WHOLE player.

I love Steffi to death, but I think Martina edges her out as a more complete player.

tennis aus
Dec 15th, 2005, 11:02 PM
I choose Martina Navratilova and Helen Wills Moody as the Greatest Female Tennis Players of All-Time. I choose them for many reasons. I'll start with Navratilova.

competed against: Court, Graf, Goolagong, Seles, Evert, and the other greats

True LTL.

Here's the list of the other Greats that Navratilova had to play with:

Billie Jean King
Margaret Court
Evonne Goolagong
Virginia Wade
Tracy Austin
Hana Mandlikova
Andrea Jaeger
Wendy Turnbull
Steffi Graf
Claudia Kohde-Kilsch
Gabriela Sabatini
Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario
Monica Seles
Jennifer Capriati
Zina Garrison

These 15 players along with Evert and Navratilova themselves make up over half of the top 30 players in women's tennis during the Open Era.

LDVTennis
Dec 15th, 2005, 11:04 PM
STEFFI GRAF

The mere facts:

* record for most consecutive weeks at No. 1, 186 weeks

* record for most total weeks at No. 1, 377 weeks

* won 22 major titles, second only to Court with 24.

* won each major title at least four times, showing just how versatile and complete a tennis player she was.

* won 7 Wimbledon titles and almost as many French Titles (6), showing again how versatile she was. No other player comes close.

* won Wimbledon and the French Open back to back, 4 times.

* completed the calendar-year Grand Slam, the holy grail of tennis, in 1988, just one year after winning her first major title. Other pretenders to the title of Greatest Ever tried throughout their careers to achieve the same feat, but failed. Steffi is only one of three women to achieve this feat, the others being Court and Connolly.

* her competitive career spans almost five generations or eras--- that of Evert and Navratilova, her own, that of Seles, that of Davenport and Hingis, and the early part of the era that would belong to the W sisters. She was competitive until the very end, beating Hingis in the FO Final of 1999 and V. Williams in the QF of Wimbledon.

alfajeffster
Dec 15th, 2005, 11:04 PM
I choose Martina Navratilova and Helen Wills Moody as the Greatest Female Tennis Players of All-Time. I choose them for many reasons. I'll start with Navratilova.

167 singles titles won - 1st all-time


1,438 singles matches won - 1st all-time


109 match winning streak w/ Pam Shriver - 1st all-time


162 doubles titles won - 1st all-time


1000+ doubles matches won - 1st all-time


390 doubles matches won w/ Pam Shriver - 1st all-time


Most total titles won


18 Grand Slams in Singles


competed against: Court, Graf, Goolagong, Seles, Evert, and the other greats


of course, you are referring to those wonderful "open era" statistics which doctor with the real results. Results like Margaret Court's roughly 190+ career tournament wins. I wonder how many matches Court actually won?

tennis aus
Dec 15th, 2005, 11:06 PM
True LTL.

Here's the list of the other Greats that Navratilova had to play with:

Billie Jean King
Margaret Court
Evonne Goolagong
Virginia Wade
Tracy Austin
Hana Mandlikova
Andrea Jaeger
Wendy Turnbull
Steffi Graf
Claudia Kohde-Kilsch
Gabriela Sabatini
Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario
Monica Seles
Jennifer Capriati
Zina Garrison

These 15 players along with Evert and Navratilova themselves make up over half of the top 30 players in women's tennis during the Open Era.

UPDATE:

Navratilova even played Davenport ... Navratilova is 1-0 vs. Lindsay Davenport.

Mary Pierce? Navratilova played her and they are 1-1.

Amanda Coetzer? Navratilova is 4-0 vs. Coetzer.

Amy Frazier? Navratilova is 2-1 vs. Amy Frazier.

Iva Majoli? Navratilova is 1-0 vs. Majoli.

The Maleeva sisters? She played all 3 and is 22-6 there.

Lori McNeil? Navratilova is 12-0 vs. McNeil.

Jana Novotna? Navratilova is 6-0 vs. Jana Novotna.

Miriam Oremans? Navratilova is 2-1 vs. Oremans.

Chanda Rubin? Navratilova is 1-0 vs. Chanda Rubin.

Irina Spirlea? Navratilova is 1-0 vs. Irina Spirlea.

Nathalie Tauziat? Navratilova is 9-1 vs. Tauziat.

Maria Bueno? Navratilova is 1-0 vs. Bueno

VivalaSeles
Dec 15th, 2005, 11:09 PM
Yes, you are totally right. Everyone who does not agree with you and does not bow and kneel before Graf is just jealous and completely irrational in his/her behaviour and choices .... right ...

RenaSlam.
Dec 15th, 2005, 11:10 PM
It says "greatest women's tennis player of all-time".

Definately Navratilova.

If it said "Greatest Women's Singles Player of All-Time"...I would have chosen Graf.

guyinsf
Dec 15th, 2005, 11:11 PM
Navratilova:

-Best win/loss record for a season (83-1) or something like that.
-Owns best streak in history for singles (74) and doubles (109)
-Owns most titles of greatest slam, 9 wimbledon
-Equally dominant in singles and doubles
-Won singles/doubles/mixed at all 4 slams!
- MOST SINGLES TITLES EVER 167!!!! No one will ever eclipse that!

alfajeffster
Dec 15th, 2005, 11:12 PM
All-Time is a pretty all-inclusive concept. I've tried on many occasions, but I just can't seem to change time. I guess I'm just an old fart stuck in the "Closed Era" mode of thinking. I remember when Jesus shaved his beard and put on some make-up and played a few matches on the WTA tour before Renee Richards stepped in and crucified him.

LDVTennis
Dec 15th, 2005, 11:15 PM
UPDATE:

Navratilova even played Davenport ... Navratilova is 1-0 vs. Lindsay Davenport.

Mary Pierce? Navratilova played her and they are 1-1.

Amanda Coetzer? Navratilova is 4-0 vs. Coetzer.

Amy Frazier? Navratilova is 2-1 vs. Amy Frazier.

Iva Majoli? Navratilova is 1-0 vs. Majoli.

The Maleeva sisters? She played all 3 and is 22-6 there.

Lori McNeil? Navratilova is 12-0 vs. McNeil.

Jana Novotna? Navratilova is 6-0 vs. Jana Novotna.

Miriam Oremans? Navratilova is 2-1 vs. Oremans.

Chanda Rubin? Navratilova is 1-0 vs. Chanda Rubin.

Irina Spirlea? Navratilova is 1-0 vs. Irina Spirlea.

Nathalie Tauziat? Navratilova is 9-1 vs. Tauziat.

Maria Bueno? Navratilova is 1-0 vs. Bueno

But, did she play Hingis, Davenport when she was No. 1, Kim Clijsters, Venus Williams, Serena Williams, etc.? I thought not.

Tennace
Dec 15th, 2005, 11:15 PM
Navratilova or maybe Hingis

tennis aus
Dec 15th, 2005, 11:16 PM
Navratilova:

-Best win/loss record for a season (83-1) or something like that.
-Owns best streak in history for singles (74) and doubles (109)
-Owns most titles of greatest slam, 9 wimbledon
-Equally dominant in singles and doubles
-Won singles/doubles/mixed at all 4 slams!
- MOST SINGLES TITLES EVER 167!!!! No one will ever eclipse that!

Most career singles titles: Navratilova
Most career doubles titles: Navratilova
Most Wimbledon singles titles: Navratilova
Most Wimbledon singles and doubles titles: Navratilova
Most WTA Tour Championship singles titles: Navratilova
Most WTA Tour Championship doubles titles: Navratilova

tennis aus
Dec 15th, 2005, 11:30 PM
But, did she play Hingis, Davenport when she was No. 1, Kim Clijsters, Venus Williams, Serena Williams, etc.? I thought not.

However, when a woman who is closer to 40 than she is to 30 (Navratilova in the mid 1990s) has a 2-2 record vs. a player such as Steffi Graf who is supposed to be in her prime in her early 20s --- and when Navratilova has won their only matchup of the 1990s at a Grand Slam event when she is about 35 years old --- and you add to this her all-time record number of singles titles, her all-time record number of doubles titles, her all-time record number of Wimbledon singles titles, her all-time record number of Wimbledon titles overall and her all-time record number of wins WTA Tour Championship titles .... then you look at her in her very, very late 20s and early, mid and late 30s and see that she has a winning record vs. Graf at the biggest events in women's tennis at both the Grand Slam events and in the WTA Tour Championships .... it only looks very favorable for Navratilova in a reasonable evaluation of this sort.

The very best players of any generation would have been champions regardless of the era in which they played.

tennis aus
Dec 15th, 2005, 11:37 PM
Martina Navratilova is also the only one to have the...

• most consecutive years at #1 ...
• most Wimbledon singles titles ...
• most consecutive years winning Wimbledon ...
• most overall total Grand Slam titles won ....
• most singles titles won on the WTA Tour ...
• most doubles titles won on the WTA Tour ...
• most impressive record for longevity and playing past the age of 30.
• most wins head to head between Graf and Navratilova in the Slams.
• most wins head to head between Graf and Navratilova at the Tour Championships.

Navratilova is the only woman in women's tennis history to have the all-time record for most number of wins at 2 of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis.

Oh, may I add a few more impressive numbers to this list..

Martina also holds the records for -
-- most singles matches won (Navratilova-1442, Evert-1304, Graf-900)
-- most consecutive singles matched won (74)
-- most consecutive doubles matches won (109, record shared with Pam Shriver)
-- most dominant year (86-1 W/L record in 1983)
-- 2nd oldest player to hold the #1 ranking (Evert was oldest)
-- most career wins over the #1 player
-- most years finished ranked in the top 10 (Navratilova - 20; Evert - 19, Graf & Seles - 13)
-- most weeks ranked #1 in singles and doubles at the same time (Navratilova-103, Graf -0)
-- most career prize money (by far) when you factor in prize money relativity
-- most years finished ranked #1 in prize money
-- most consecutive years earning $100K or more
-- most consecutive years earning $500K or more
-- most years earning $500K or more
-- most consecutive years on top 10 prize money list (Navratilova-20, Evert-16 ... Graf is 6th on this list at 11)
-- most consecutive WTA Tour singles titles (Navratilova-13, Court-12)
-- most consecutive years winning at lest 1 singles title (Navratilova -21, Evert-18)
-- most singles titles won at the same tournament (Navratilova-Chicago/12, Navratilova-Eastbourne/11, Graf-Berlin/9)
-- most consecutive titles won a tthe same tournament (Navratilova-Wimbledon/6, Navratilova-Chicago/6, Graf-Hamburg/6)
--- most dominant individual performance at a 128-draw grand slam event - US Open: Navratilova conceded just 19 games at the 1983 US Open
- most dominant individual performance at Wimbledon: Navratilova conceded just 25 games at the 1983 Wimbledon (Evert conceded just 26 games at the 1981 Wimbledon)
-- most singles matches won in the same season: Navratilova-74 (1984), Graf- 66 (1990, snapped by Monica Seles).
-- most consecutive singles finals reached (23)
-- most WTA Tour awards for doubles team of the year (10 - 2 with King, 8 with Shriver)
-- most WTA Tour awards - 18
-- most WTA Tour Special Service to the Game Award - Billie Jean King is the only person to have won this twice since it was first awarded in 1980; Navratilova, Evert and Shriver have all received this award. Graf was never nominated.

alfajeffster
Dec 15th, 2005, 11:45 PM
Martina Navratilova is also the only one to have the...

• most consecutive years at #1 ...
• most Wimbledon singles titles ...
• most consecutive years winning Wimbledon ...
• most overall total Grand Slam titles won ....
• most singles titles won on the WTA Tour ...
• most doubles titles won on the WTA Tour ...
• most impressive record for longevity and playing past the age of 30.
• most wins head to head between Graf and Navratilova in the Slams.
• most wins head to head between Graf and Navratilova at the Tour Championships.

Navratilova is the only woman in women's tennis history to have the all-time record for most number of wins at 2 of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis.

Oh, may I add a few more impressive numbers to this list..

Martina also holds the records for -
-- most singles matches won (Navratilova-1442, Evert-1304, Graf-900)
-- most consecutive singles matched won (74)
-- most consecutive doubles matches won (109, record shared with Pam Shriver)
-- most dominant year (86-1 W/L record in 1983)
-- 2nd oldest player to hold the #1 ranking (Evert was oldest)
-- most career wins over the #1 player
-- most years finished ranked in the top 10 (Navratilova - 20; Evert - 19, Graf & Seles - 13)
-- most weeks ranked #1 in singles and doubles at the same time (Navratilova-103, Graf -0)
-- most career prize money (by far) when you factor in prize money relativity
-- most years finished ranked #1 in prize money
-- most consecutive years earning $100K or more
-- most consecutive years earning $500K or more
-- most years earning $500K or more
-- most consecutive years on top 10 prize money list (Navratilova-20, Evert-16 ... Graf is 6th on this list at 11)
-- most consecutive WTA Tour singles titles (Navratilova-13, Court-12)
-- most consecutive years winning at lest 1 singles title (Navratilova -21, Evert-18)
-- most singles titles won at the same tournament (Navratilova-Chicago/12, Navratilova-Eastbourne/11, Graf-Berlin/9)
-- most consecutive titles won a tthe same tournament (Navratilova-Wimbledon/6, Navratilova-Chicago/6, Graf-Hamburg/6)
--- most dominant individual performance at a 128-draw grand slam event - US Open: Navratilova conceded just 19 games at the 1983 US Open
- most dominant individual performance at Wimbledon: Navratilova conceded just 25 games at the 1983 Wimbledon (Evert conceded just 26 games at the 1981 Wimbledon)
-- most singles matches won in the same season: Navratilova-74 (1984), Graf- 66 (1990, snapped by Monica Seles).
-- most consecutive singles finals reached (23)
-- most WTA Tour awards for doubles team of the year (10 - 2 with King, 8 with Shriver)
-- most WTA Tour awards - 18
-- most WTA Tour Special Service to the Game Award - Billie Jean King is the only person to have won this twice since it was first awarded in 1980; Navratilova, Evert and Shriver have all received this award. Graf was never nominated.

Remind me to ask you to do my taxes next year.

-VSR-
Dec 15th, 2005, 11:56 PM
Shit! I didn't mean to hit the "other" button. :o

Geisha
Dec 16th, 2005, 12:50 AM
of course, you are referring to those wonderful "open era" statistics which doctor with the real results. Results like Margaret Court's roughly 190+ career tournament wins. I wonder how many matches Court actually won?

MSC won only 79 professional singles titles. :lick:

tennis aus
Dec 16th, 2005, 01:37 AM
58 Open Era GS titles on all surfaces, and she's a competitive doubles player today, at 48 years old.

True Volcana.

LONGETIVITY. This is one area where Martina Navratilova is truly making a name for herself in addition to her GREAT DOMINANCE of the early to mid 1980s. Navratilova began playing women's tennis professionally in the early 1970s and was in her last Grand Slam singles final over 20 years later in 1994. She won a Grand Slam mixed doubles title at the 2003 Australian Open some 30 years after she started playing professional tennis. Evert had great longevity which spanned some 18 years between the early 1970s and the late 1980s. Wills Moody had excellent longevity as well with her greatness spanning about 16 years from the early to mid 1920s until almost 1940.

RJWCapriati
Dec 16th, 2005, 01:40 AM
Out of the list I would go with Graf.

If Seles was never stabbed, Graf would have never won 109 titles.

Seles would have continued to dominate the tour for years and I would say have had at least 20 Grand Slam singles titles. :)

Jakeev
Dec 16th, 2005, 01:45 AM
I think Martina N's results and accomplishments speak for her............

Geisha
Dec 16th, 2005, 01:47 AM
Out of the list I would go with Graf.

If Seles was never stabbed, Graf would have never won 109 titles.

Seles would have continued to dominate the tour for years and I would say have had at least 20 Grand Slam singles titles. :)

Maybe not "at least" 20 GS, but at least five more. She definitely would have won one more during 1993, two or three in 1994, and more later in her career, as well.

tennisvideos
Dec 16th, 2005, 02:54 AM
MSC won only 79 professional singles titles. :lick:

Just a little dismissive isn't that statement?

What about between 1960 and 1968 when she won about 110 or so singles titles making a total of 190+?

The light needs to be shone in all corners to reveal the truth.

LDVTennis
Dec 16th, 2005, 03:43 AM
However, when a woman who is closer to 40 than she is to 30 (Navratilova in the mid 1990s) has a 2-2 record vs. a player such as Steffi Graf who is supposed to be in her prime in her early 20s --- and when Navratilova has won their only matchup of the 1990s at a Grand Slam event when she is about 35 years old --- and you add to this her all-time record number of singles titles, her all-time record number of doubles titles, her all-time record number of Wimbledon singles titles, her all-time record number of Wimbledon titles overall and her all-time record number of wins WTA Tour Championship titles .... then you look at her in her very, very late 20s and early, mid and late 30s and see that she has a winning record vs. Graf at the biggest events in women's tennis at both the Grand Slam events and in the WTA Tour Championships .... it only looks very favorable for Navratilova in a reasonable evaluation of this sort.

The very best players of any generation would have been champions regardless of the era in which they played.

Graf won the last match they played in two straightforward sets (6/2, 6/4). Before Graf became distracted by some personal turmoil in 1990, her record against Martina from 1988 to 1989 was 4-0. That includes two victories on Martina's favorite surface (grass) and at Martina's favorite venue (Wimbledon). It seems reasonable to assume that in 1988 and 1989, Martina was closer to her peak than she was in 1991 or 1993.

From 1991 to 1994, Steffi and Martina played only once each year, for a total of four times. They split those meetings. All of those matches went three sets, except the last one as I noted above.

One of the matches took place on a hard court, the rest on indoor carpet. None of their encounters over the last four years of their rivalry took place on clay. Some of us have speculated that Martina's head to head record against Steffi benefited from not having to face Steffi on clay, a surface where Steffi was clearly better. After all, Steffi won 6 FO titles to Martina's 2. Some of us have also speculated that their head to head record is skewed in Martina's favor because they hardly faced each other after 1989. They did not face each other in 1990. And, they only played each other once each year from 1991 to 1994. As it is, their head to head record ended up being 9 to 9.

By 1994, when Steffi won their last match, she had not yet become the complete player she would be in 1996. The player she became in 1996 was good enough to take Venus out in the QF of Wimbledon and to win her sixth and last FO against Martina Hingis in 1999. It is doubtful that Martina could have kept up with the Steffi of 1996 had she continued playing. Even as a doubles player now, Martina does not have the explosive power of the Graf forehand or serve or even the pure speed that Graf had and that Graf utilized to keep her in the game until 1999.

LDVTennis
Dec 16th, 2005, 03:50 AM
True Volcana.

LONGETIVITY. This is one area where Martina Navratilova is truly making a name for herself in addition to her GREAT DOMINANCE of the early to mid 1980s. Navratilova began playing women's tennis professionally in the early 1970s and was in her last Grand Slam singles final over 20 years later in 1994. She won a Grand Slam mixed doubles title at the 2003 Australian Open some 30 years after she started playing professional tennis. Evert had great longevity which spanned some 18 years between the early 1970s and the late 1980s. Wills Moody had excellent longevity as well with her greatness spanning about 16 years from the early to mid 1920s until almost 1940.

Who needs Longevity? When in 9 years you can do what it took other players 13 years to do?

It took Steffi 9 years to win 18 major titles. It took Martina 13 years. At that rate, Martina is lucky that Steffi retired when she did.

Andy.
Dec 16th, 2005, 03:52 AM
On results alone you have to go with Steffi, she has womore slams than anyone and has been ranked number 1 for more weeks than anyone else.

Ferosh
Dec 16th, 2005, 03:52 AM
Martina Navratilova, hands down.

Derek.
Dec 16th, 2005, 03:58 AM
Martina Navratilova.

tennis aus
Dec 16th, 2005, 04:30 AM
Graf won the last match they played in two straightforward sets (6/2, 6/4). Before Graf became distracted by some personal turmoil in 1990, her record against Martina from 1988 to 1989 was 4-0.


Steffi Graf NEVER had a winning record for her career vs. Martina Navratilova.

Even in the 1990s when Navratilova was in her 34th, 35th, 36th, 37th and 38th years Graf could not have a winning record vs. Navratilova at any point in time.

Graf and Navratilova had one match during the 1990s which was at a Grand Slam event. Navratilova was 36 or 37 years of age at that time. Who won that match?

Martina Navratilova.

October 18, 1956 .... Navratilova's birthdate.
June 14, 1969 ......... Graf's birthdate.

1991-08-26 U.S. Open Martina Navratilova won 7-6 6-7 6-4
(even though Navratilova was 1 month shy of 35 and Graf was 22)

1992-10-05 Zurich Steffi Graf won 2-6 7-5 7-5
(Navratilova turned 36 during this month and Graf was 23 years old)

1993-02-01 Tokyo Martina Navratilova won 4-6 6-3 6-3
(Navratilova was closer to 40 than to 30 .. 36 years, 4 months)

Yes, for the years 1990-1993 Martina Navratilova in her mid-to-late 30s had a winning record vs. Steffi Graf in her her early-to-mid 20s.

tennis aus
Dec 16th, 2005, 04:47 AM
Who needs Longevity? When in 9 years you can do what it took other players 13 years to do?

It took Steffi 9 years to win 18 major titles. It took Martina 13 years. At that rate, Martina is lucky that Steffi retired when she did.

It is called LONGEVITY (Navratilova and Evert) and LACK OF (Graf).

Don't forget that there are 3 components to greatness in tennis --- DOMINANCE ... CONSISTENCY ... LONGEVITY.

Some players have all 3 ... some have 2 of the 3 ... and some have to rely on a fan stabbing another player to even have 2 of the 3.

tennis aus
Dec 16th, 2005, 06:42 AM
Who is the Greatest Women's Tennis Player of All-Time?

Vote and state "why" you chose that certain player.

http://archiv.radio.cz/img/espanol/navratilova.jpg



Martina Navratilova, the greatest tennis player of all-time, revolutionized women's tennis with her superb athleticism and raised the sport to an entirely new level. By the time she retired in 1994, she had amassed a staggering number of records, including 168 pro singles titles, breaking Chris Evert's previous record of 157. She set a new record with nine Wimbledon championships and more singles matches than anyone in tennis history with a 1,438-212 won-lost record. She holds 165 doubles titles and earned more than $20 million in prize money.

Martina was No. 1 in the world in 1978-79-80-82-83-84-85-86-87, for a total of 223 weeks. She won 18 Grand Slam Singles titles including her record 9 Wimbledon crowns, 4 US Opens, 3 Australian Opens and 2 French Opens. She and Chris are tied for 4th on the all-time list for Grand Slam singles titles. Martina is second on the all-time list with a total of 58 Grand Slam championships including 18 singles, 31 doubles and 7 mixed doubles titles. In 1984, she completed a non-calendar year Grand Slam by winning the 1983 Wimbledon, US Open and Australian Open and then the 1984 French Open. She captured the rare Triple Crown at the 1987 US Open, winning mixed doubles with Emilio Sanchez, women's doubles with Pam Shriver, and the singles title defeating Steffi Graf in the final. Billie Jean King and Margaret Court are the only other women who have accomplished this feat.

Martina and Chris provided the main story line for women's tennis for many years with their friendly rivalry that spanned more than 17 years, making it the longest and greatest ever in women's tennis, as well as the greatest individual rivalry in all sports. From 1973 through 1988, they played 80 matches, with Martina leading 43-37.

Martina was born in Prague, Czechoslovakia and became a US citizen in 1981, after seeking political asylum six years earlier. For years, she was considered such a non-person in her native land that both her name and photos were erased from record books throughout the then-Eastern Bloc country. In 1986 she returned to her homeland as a US citizen and led the US to a Federation Cup victory, just as she had done 11 years before for Czechoslovakia.

Martina supports a number of non-profit organizations and charitable causes, including work to benefit under-privileged children, environmental organizations, gay rights and PETA.

She enjoys snow skiing, snowboarding, golf, basketball, horseback riding and reading books. She is also the author of three mystery novels, "The Total Zone", "Breaking Point" and "Killer Instinct".

Martina was named by ESPN as one of the "20 Greatest Athletes of the Century", one of only two women on that list.

Martina was inducted into the International Tennis Hall of Fame in July, 2000.

The Kaz
Dec 16th, 2005, 06:53 AM
err...best player of all time?...Margaret Smith Court. She won more GS singles titles than ANY other player and more GS titles (singles, doubles and mixed than ANY other player and NO ONE WILL BEAT THAT RECORD! Think of the best in tennis...think of Grand Slams...Think of Margaret Smith Court (AUS) BEST PLAYER EVER!!! :worship: :woohoo: :worship:

aussie_stars
Dec 16th, 2005, 06:55 AM
If people actually look at the true stats, they will see that Margaret Court had the greatest career of any player.

Its amazing how people just dismiss her.

aussie_stars
Dec 16th, 2005, 06:58 AM
- Most GS Titles
- Most GS Singles Titles
- Most Singles Tournament Wins

If one player leads these 3 categories....how can it be a contest?

tennis aus
Dec 16th, 2005, 07:46 AM
If people actually look at the true stats, they will see that Margaret Court had the greatest career of any player.

Its amazing how people just dismiss her.

Good point aussie stars. I have tremendous awe and respect for fellow Aussie, Tennis Great Margaret Court. She is #2 on my GOAT list behind Navratilova.

But Court's record is inflated a bit because of the relatively weak competition when she won 11 Australian Championships and 13 more from the other Slams; however, when you win 24 Grand Slam singles titles (including beating Billie Jean King on grass and Chris Evert on clay) there is more there than some people are willing to give credit for.

IMO, she should be ranked above Steffi Graf whose record was also inflated by the 1993 Hamburg incident.

BCP
Dec 16th, 2005, 09:43 AM
It amazing how players' records against Chris Evert are held up as a measure of their greatness, yet no one has thought to argue the case for Chris (Daze, where are you?!)


Here's some to start:

- Highest winning % in the open era - 1309-146 =90%- higher than Graf, Higher than Navratilova

- 125 consecutive matches won on clay over 6 years, one loss to Tracy Austin (7-6 in the 3rd set!), and then a run of another 84 consecutive claycourt victories until hana beat her in the 81 French Open, a record that will never be broken

- won at least 1 GS for 13 consecutive years, another record that will never be broken

- holds the record for the most French Opens, and holds 6 US Opens, more than Graf and Navratilova

- won more than half of the tournaments she entered, and reached the final of 76% of the 303 tournaments she entered- incredible

- over her 20 year career she failed to reach the semis of the GS she entered only 4 times, and 3 of those were QF losses. Her only loss before the QF was the 1983 Wimbeldon 3rd rd when she lost to Kathy Jordan, but she was suffering from food poisoning. At the time, she was going for the "Chrissie Slam", holding the 82 US Open, 82 Australian Open, and 83 French Open, in the period that Martina was hitting her stride.

- Chris is often labelled a clay court player, but she reached the Wimbeldon final 10 times, winning 3, won 2 Australian Open titles on grass (and reaching another 2 AO finals on grass, losing to Goolagong in 74, and Navratilova in 81 7-5 in the 3rd). This was done in an era of competition with the likes of Court, King, Goolagong, Navratilova, Mandlikova, Wade.....a who's who of the greatest grasscourt players of all time. If you look at her grass court record against Navratilova, often hailed as the best grsscourt player of all time, their matches on grass were all extremely close (I think her worst loss to Navratilova on grass was the 79 Wimbeldon final 6-4, 6-4). In 1973, she beat Margaret Court in the SF of Wimbeldon. Had Margaret won that match, she would have won the grandslam twice, as went on to win every other GS in 73.

Finally here's a comment from raymond Lee in his research from his Greatest Ever Article:

"As great as Navratilova was from 1982 to 1986, Evert's record from 1974 to 1978 is almost as impressive. During that five-year period, Evert registered a 325-21, capturing 61 of the 84 tournaments she entered, including eight of the 13 Grand Slams she played. Entering 13 majors in a five-year span is not much by today's standards, but in Evert's era many of the top American players seldom played the Australian Open. In fact, Evert only played the Australian Open once in the first 10 years of her career, reaching the final in 1974. Had Evert entered more majors during that time she very well could have threatened Margaret Court's record of 24 Grand Slam singles titles. "
In addition to being no 1 from 74-78, she was also no 1 in 1980 and 81.


One more thing, she beat Margaret Court in straight sets (7-6, 7-6) as a 15 year old in 1970 after Margaret had just won the Grand Slam.

tennislover
Dec 16th, 2005, 11:30 AM
martinamartinamartinamartinamartinamartinamartinam artinamartinamartinamartinamartinamartinamartinama rtinamartinamartinamartinamartinamartinamartinamar tinamartinamartinamartinamartinamartinamartinamart inamartinamartinamartinaartinamartinamartinamartin amartinamartinamartinamartinamartinamartinamartina martinamartinamartinamartinamartinamartinamartinam artinamartinamartinamartinamartinamartinamartinama rtinamartinamartinamartinamartinamartinamartinamar tinamartinamartinamartinamartinamartinamartinamart inamartinamartinamartinamartinamartinamartinamarti namartinamartinamartinamartinamartinamartinamartin amartinamartinamartinamartinamartinamartinamartina martinamartinamartinaartinamartinamartinamartinama rtinamartinamartinamartinamartinamartinamartinamar tinamartinamartinamartinamartinamartinamartinamart inamartinamartinamartinamartinamartinamartinamarti namartinamartinamartinamartinamartinamartina
:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

alfajeffster
Dec 16th, 2005, 12:10 PM
...But Court's record is inflated a bit because of the relatively weak competition when she won 11 Australian Championships and 13 more from the other Slams...

If we begin sticking pins in Margaret Court's record, then we must also shake the doll that conveniently spouts only WTA Media Guide statistics on Martina's. Not only did Navratilova have no great world-class serve-volley competition for well over half of her career, it is common knowledge (for those that play and coach anyway) that the best way to take out a net rusher is to rush the net. Serve-volley players don't generally like to pass, and it has historically been the key (in both men's and women's tennis) to breaking down a serve-volley game. Margaret had to play against attacking opponents Maria Bueno, Billie Jean King, Evonne Goolagong and a whole host of players on the caliber of Virginia Wade, as well as baseliners extraordinaire Nancy Richey, Ann Jones, and Chris Evert. If you look at the competition during Martina's glory years, and specifically, her run of six straight Wimbledon titles, only one world-class name pops out. Suffice to say that serve-volley was never on the ChrisAmerica agenda, and the board room over at TeamNavratilova pulled a watergate pretty early on (after 30 or so losses) and had an easier time of it than Margaret ever did.

KV
Dec 16th, 2005, 12:39 PM
If we begin sticking pins in Margaret Court's record, then we must also shake the doll that conveniently spouts only WTA Media Guide statistics on Martina's. Not only did Navratilova have no great world-class serve-volley competition for well over half of her career, it is common knowledge (for those that play and coach anyway) that the best way to take out a net rusher is to rush the net. Serve-volley players don't generally like to pass, and it has historically been the key (in both men's and women's tennis) to breaking down a serve-volley game. Margaret had to play against attacking opponents Maria Bueno, Billie Jean King, Evonne Goolagong and a whole host of players on the caliber of Virginia Wade, as well as baseliners extraordinaire Nancy Richey, Ann Jones, and Chris Evert. If you look at the competition during Martina's glory years, and specifically, her run of six straight Wimbledon titles, only one world-class name pops out. Suffice to say that serve-volley was never on the ChrisAmerica agenda, and the board room over at TeamNavratilova pulled a watergate pretty early on (after 30 or so losses) and had an easier time of it than Margaret ever did.I'd say Martina had serve & volley competition from H. Mandlikova, and to a lesser extent from P. Shriver/H. Sukova. Mainly from 80 to 86. We all know what H. Mandlikova/P. Shriver/H. Sukova were capable of on a given day.

Rollo
Dec 16th, 2005, 02:53 PM
The fun thing is you can make a good case for more than one woman. With any luck we'll have a woman in the future who either wins THE Grand slam or takes home more than 10 plus majors. I thought Serena might have a shot at it a few years back.

AsGoodAsNew
Dec 16th, 2005, 03:05 PM
I personally like how Steffi has handled her retirement. A few public appearances - mainly for her Foundation or to support Andre. Steffi rarely slags off any of the players past or present - and indeed made a very complimentary remark about Hingis.

Helen Lawson
Dec 16th, 2005, 03:11 PM
Martina is not 6-0 against Jana Novotna. Jana beat her at least once, at Wimbledon '93 in the semifinals. And then of course there's the player who is still playing who is 4-1 against her. :p

eugreene2
Dec 16th, 2005, 03:34 PM
It is very hard to compare eras & therefore discussions like this are based mainly on competition. Most people ask this question - At their peak, would (fill in the blank) beat (fill in the blank)? I narrow down the best players ever as Court, Navratilova, Evert, King, Graf, Seles & Serena

For me, that eliminates Steffi Graf who I believe wouldn't have all these gaudy stats if Monica hadn't been stabbed. It also eliminates Court & Evert who were by today's standards very consistent players but with no standout weapons. King was great but I don't think she would beat Martina at her peak so she's out. Monica isn't athletic enough so she's out. We can now fill in the blanks for the question above...

At their peak, would Martina Navratilova beat Serena Williams?

petra martinnen
Dec 16th, 2005, 03:42 PM
Serena Williams. The tennis now is on a far tougher level than in glory gerenations past with real depth for the first time ever. Serena when interested and at her peak would have defeated any other big name. She hit harder, moved better, and had the most grit. Note how I speak of Serena in past tense! Longviety isnotheissue. She branched out and lost interest, yes. But who wants to play one's sister in final after final? Steffi would be #2 for obvious reasons. Oldie tennis is really not comparble to game played by the gals of the 21st century.

Helen Lawson
Dec 16th, 2005, 03:43 PM
Margaret had the whole package, singles, doubles, longevity, and all the numbers to back it up. I saw a tape of her last year, I couldn't believe how amazing she was, she could play like with today's broads! She's old and unpopular now because of her views, so people forget.

Andy T
Dec 16th, 2005, 03:52 PM
The fun thing is you can make a good case for more than one woman. With any luck we'll have a woman in the future who either wins THE Grand slam or takes home more than 10 plus majors. I thought Serena might have a shot at it a few years back.

I agree with you Rollo. Suzanne and H W-M are too far back in time to get a fair assessment of by most people nowadays, though that is not to say that they don't have a valid claim, mind you. Post war, we have the half careers of Connolly and Seles to grapple with and it seems really unfair to even consider Serena when she still has potentially, at least, many years ahead of her to evolve as a player (or not) and build on her record (or not).
The 4 who stand out to me are Steffi, Martina, Chris and Madge. I don't think BJK has quite the resumι to make it to the very top of the list. between them, people can argue until the cows come home if they choose to but for every argument in favour there's an argument against, a qualification for every assertion. At the end of the day, it matters not one jot, though.

Why obsess about absolutes and hierarchies when tennis is a game of relatives and constantly changing conditions (the rules, the surface, the racquet, the rankings, the tour, the opponents, your age, your mood, your life situation, your body...). Some days/weeks/months you play well, some you don't. You play well or badly and win or you play well or badly and lose. Within the same match, you hit crap volleys or backhands and you hit good ones.

We all know which player we love (or in some cases I can think of hate) the most, the ones we derive pleasure from watching and those we don't but isn't it possible to put the emotional trips aside and just try to appreciate all of them?

Rollo
Dec 16th, 2005, 05:00 PM
"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Andy T again."


There's nothing more one could add to that :worship:

Rollo
Dec 16th, 2005, 05:15 PM
Oldie tennis is really not comparble to game played by the gals of the 21st century.


You're right-in many ways it was MUCH tougher for the oldies

The "oldies" didn't have huge racquets that you couldn't miss with. Today's metal racquets allow you to hit half you're mishits in, generate power without really getting behind the ball, and hit with an open stance on almost every shot.

Try that crap with a wooden racquet and you'd be killed. Wood had about half the area of today's monsters.

Today's pampered stars get to fly first class and have their every want and need catered to by an entourage and a coach they can hire and fire at will.

Most of the oldies were TOLD where to play (injured or not-forget "fatigue" as an excuse) often had to travel for weeks on end by boat, train, and car (The world's #1 in the 1940s drove herself to events and often played with a couple hours of sleep) and most often had no coaching at all.

Understand-I'm not slagging on Serena, but before you start saying "the games aren't comparable" sit down and really think about how and why they aren't comparable.

Better yet, buy an old wooden racquet and go have a hit-then we'll talk.

Give the "oldies" some respect-without them the Serena's and Maria's wouldn't be here.

propi
Dec 16th, 2005, 05:19 PM
Steffi, of course :worship:

alfajeffster
Dec 16th, 2005, 05:20 PM
You're right-in many ways it was MUCH tougher for the oldies

The "oldies" didn't have huge racquets that you couldn't miss with. Today's metal racquets allow you to hit half you're mishits in, generate power without really getting behind the ball, and hit with an open stance on almost every shot.

Try that crap with a wooden racquet and you'd be killed. Wood had about half the area of today's monsters.

Today's pampered stars get to fly first class and have their every want and need catered to by an entourage and a coach they can hire and fire at will.

Most of the oldies were TOLD where to play (injured or not-forget "fatigue" as an excuse) often had to travel for weeks on end by boat, train, and car (The world's #1 in the 1940s drove herself to events and often played with a couple hours of sleep) and most often had no coaching at all.

Understand-I'm not slagging on Serena, but before you start saying "the games aren't comparable" sit down and really think about how and why they aren't comparable.

Better yet, buy an old wooden racquet and go have a hit-then we'll talk.

Give the "oldies" some respect-without them the Serena's and Maria's wouldn't be here.


:worship: with the exception of replacing the word "wood" with the words "standard size frame", I wholeheartedly agree with everything this post expresses. Geez, did you and AndyT have a conference call and decide to see how you could make alfa all vaklempt during lunch time?

alfajeffster
Dec 16th, 2005, 05:27 PM
[QUOTE=eugreene2]...It also eliminates Court & Evert who were by today's standards very consistent players but with no standout weapons. King was great but I don't think she would beat Martina at her peak so she's out../QUOTE]

HBO Wimbledon coverage, mid-90s-

Jim Lampley: Martina, you've faced quite a few serves in your career. Who would you say had the biggest serve you ever faced?
Martina Navratilova: Margaret Court.
Billie Jean King: Nah... maybe first serve. :lol:

Margaret Court had a huge first serve, and was also universally considered to have the best overhead in the game, in an era when the lob over net rushers was a much more frequent play than today. She dominated when the whole game of tennis was on display, and yes, she did have weapons- several.

Chris Evert's major weapon is the same as Martina Hingis, Tracy Austin, Maureen Connolly, and Helen Wills- mental toughness with the baseline accuracy to back it up. It's not a flashy weapon, but it's a weapon that has consistently taken down more opponents than not.

Bankhead Bounce
Dec 16th, 2005, 05:27 PM
Serena J. Williams :rocker2:

Rollo
Dec 16th, 2005, 05:30 PM
Posted by eugreene2It is very hard to compare eras & therefore discussions like this are based mainly on competition. Most people ask this question - At their peak, would (fill in the blank) beat (fill in the blank)? I narrow down the best players ever as Court, Navratilova, Evert, King, Graf, Seles & Serena

For me, that eliminates Steffi Graf who I believe wouldn't have all these gaudy stats if Monica hadn't been stabbed. It also eliminates Court & Evert who were by today's standards very consistent players but with no standout weapons. King was great but I don't think she would beat Martina at her peak so she's out. Monica isn't athletic enough so she's out. We can now fill in the blanks for the question above...

At their peak, would Martina Navratilova beat Serena Williams?



Your post illustrates the whole problem (and fun) Eugreene2.

"At their peak, would Martina Navratilova beat Serena Williams?" Don't know, but most matches are won with both players at well under 100%. both at their "peaks" happens one out of ten times.

Most champs will tell you they're winners cause they win even at less than
100%

You write"by today's standards"-why does "today" have to be the standard? Why not make Serena go back to 1970 with a wood racquet? If you DO bring Navratilova and company forward into 2005 you'd have to give them time and training to adjust to the power sticks (and FYI Court had loads of standout weapons-as many as Navratilova with wood).

And you better believe those gals would have a lot of weapons with today's racquets.

That makes it a whole new argument. Because we can come back in 2015 and the argument will be "Ti Hi Li (winner of 12 slams in 2015) could beat the hell out of old-timers like Serena Williams and Maria Sharapova cause they just played pitty-pat."

Trust old Rollo-that will be the argument, cause I heard it in 1985 and 1995 too, except then it was Navratilova and Graf in Serena's place.

The problem is Serena has lost to Steffi Graf, who lost to Navratilova, who lost to Evert (she of no weapons), who lost to court, who lost to Bueno, who lost to ...well, you get my drift by now.

And of course Serena has beaten Sharapova, who just might beat that Ti Hi Li chick coming out of China.....

Ain't tennis fun?

auntie janie
Dec 16th, 2005, 06:07 PM
I voted for "other", because the wonderful and amazing Maureen "Little Mo" Connolly is not listed. Boo! :mad:

LDVTennis
Dec 16th, 2005, 06:15 PM
It is called LONGEVITY (Navratilova and Evert) and LACK OF (Graf).

Don't forget that there are 3 components to greatness in tennis --- DOMINANCE ... CONSISTENCY ... LONGEVITY.

Some players have all 3 ... some have 2 of the 3 ... and some have to rely on a fan stabbing another player to even have 2 of the 3.

Your ravings are becoming psychotic. The Stabbing, The Stabbing, The Stabbing. About time that you realize that you are screaming these words in an empty theater.

Because if you haven't noticed the tennis media have stopped talking about it. Or, at least, when it is mentioned now it is as a gesture of pity for Seles, and no longer as an indictment on Graf.

And, do you know why that is? Because almost since she retired, Graf has had a PR Machine as powerful as the one that Seles once had when Mark McCormack at IMG was in her friend's box. The man behind Graf's PR now is Andre Agassi. And, given how beholden US sportsnetworks are on him for creating any interest in the US on men's tennis, they are not about to do anything that might limit their access to him, and above all that includes insulting his wife. Wonderful how that all worked out, isn't it?

And, it worked out in part because Seles virtually disappeared from the tennis scene. Without her playing matches at tournaments, there was no longer the opportunity for those with long ties to the McCormack family to keep spouting the stabbing propaganda. Even when she was still playing, not very well and sometimes terribly out of shape, it was becoming harder and harder to make the case that it was the stabbing that had changed tennis history. Seles' poor play and lack of fitness, that is, just didn't help to make the case. Indeed, any comment about the stabbing made her look even more pathetic since so many years later it seemed like she still hadn't gotten over it, much like you.

Which brings us to the present. While Seles lurks in the demimonde of second-tier charity events and exhibition tennis, Graf is globally triumphant, either courtside at Andre's matches, on commercials for Genworth Financial, or as spokesperson for an Estee Lauder perfume. So, in the end it seems that Graf just didn't win more major titles than Seles, but she has also overcome almost all of the speculation over the stabbing. I said "almost all" because you and your ilk obviously haven't stopped speculating, but no one is really listening to you anymore. But, they are obviously listening to Andre Agassi and all he wants to talk about his how "great" Steffi has been to his life. Can't beat PR like that.

John A Roark
Dec 16th, 2005, 06:20 PM
58 Open Era GS titles on all surfaces, and she's a competitive doubles player today, at 48 years old.
Martina, can there be any doubt?

Apoorv
Dec 16th, 2005, 06:37 PM
Steffi Graf.

The only player who can compete against any player of any generation. she has the talent to beat likes of court and the mobility and power to beat likes of williams. A game so well developed to dominate on any surface from clay to grass to hard court etc. she was incredibly consistant on every surface unlike any other.

SvetaPleaseWin.
Dec 16th, 2005, 06:46 PM
evert closely followed by navrat and court

eugreene2
Dec 16th, 2005, 08:12 PM
How can people continue to name Graf? She was a great player but definitely not the greatest. As much of a fan I was of hers & how I hated Seles when she burst on to the scene, truth is truth. Graf benefited mightily from the stabbing of Seles. Graf against Serena is tied at 1-1 which I find interesting since Serena was such a youngster & Graf was the veteran. So neither was at their peak. Serena took Graf to 3 sets in both matches & won the more important one - The Indian Wells final.

tennislover
Dec 16th, 2005, 08:53 PM
Martina Navratilova, hands down.
:kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :hearts: :hearts: :hearts:
I want marry you, dear, whatever your sex is.....

tennislover
Dec 16th, 2005, 08:54 PM
How can people continue to name Graf? She was a great player but definitely not the greatest. As much of a fan I was of hers & how I hated Seles when she burst on to the scene, truth is truth. Graf benefited mightily from the stabbing of Seles. Graf against Serena is tied at 1-1 which I find interesting since Serena was such a youngster & Graf was the veteran. So neither was at their peak. Serena took Graf to 3 sets in both matches & won the more important one - The Indian Wells final.

you are the mouth of truth, dear :worship:

tennislover
Dec 16th, 2005, 08:57 PM
Martina, can there be any doubt?

indeed. no doubt about that!
:wavey:

borisy
Dec 16th, 2005, 09:40 PM
Finally a fresh topic! :worship:

tennislover
Dec 16th, 2005, 10:26 PM
Finally a fresh topic! :worship:
:haha:

tennislover
Dec 16th, 2005, 10:28 PM
guys, do you miss cali's posts? I didn't agree with him at all but.....
how to discuss the best ever without his "graf -celebrating" posts? :shrug:

alfajeffster
Dec 16th, 2005, 11:02 PM
...Because if you haven't noticed the tennis media have stopped talking about it. Or, at least, when it is mentioned now it is as a gesture of pity for Seles, and no longer as an indictment on Graf.

And, do you know why that is? Because almost since she retired, Graf has had a PR Machine as powerful as the one that Seles once had when Mark McCormack at IMG was in her friend's box. The man behind Graf's PR now is Andre Agassi. And, given how beholden US sportsnetworks are on him for creating any interest in the US on men's tennis, they are not about to do anything that might limit their access to him, and above all that includes insulting his wife. Wonderful how that all worked out, isn't it?

This post deserves a good clean smile- in fact, three of them:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a223/alfajeffster/GrafEvertAgassi.jpg

Kworb
Dec 17th, 2005, 11:28 PM
Seles! She would've won at least 30 Grand Slams if it weren't for the incident.

Stamp Paid
Dec 17th, 2005, 11:30 PM
Seles! She would've won at least 30 Grand Slams if it weren't for the incident.

At least!

terjw
Dec 18th, 2005, 12:07 AM
I've just voted Graf. Looking at the votes it's really close between her and Nav now - and IMO those two stand clear of the rest of the greats.

Geisha
Dec 18th, 2005, 03:19 AM
I've just voted Graf. Looking at the votes it's really close between her and Nav now - and IMO those two stand clear of the rest of the greats.

I wouldn't say that is entirely true. I mean, I'm not so sure Chrissie would give up thirty titles for three Grand Slams, to match Steffi, right? Check it out:

During her first sixteen years on the tennis circuit, Evert reached the semifinals or better in 48 of 49 Grand Slam tournaments. Her only loss before the semifinals was to Kathy Jordan at Wimbledon in '83 - she had stomach flu.

Holds the record for most consecutive years with a Grand Slam title, with a total of 13 years.

Holds the record for most career singles victories at the US Open, with a total of 101 wins.

Holds the record for most French Open singles titles, with a total of seven.

Holds the record for most consecutive clay court victories, with a total of 125 during a six-year span.

Holds the record for best winning percentage at the end of her career, with a %.900 winning percentage.

Won 157 singles titles after her 289th event. When Navratilova matched her record, she had played her 343rd event.

tennisvideos
Dec 18th, 2005, 04:52 AM
I wouldn't say that is entirely true. I mean, I'm not so sure Chrissie would give up thirty titles for three Grand Slams, to match Steffi, right? Check it out:

During her first sixteen years on the tennis circuit, Evert reached the semifinals or better in 48 of 49 Grand Slam tournaments. Her only loss before the semifinals was to Kathy Jordan at Wimbledon in '83 - she had stomach flu.

Holds the record for most consecutive years with a Grand Slam title, with a total of 13 years.

Holds the record for most career singles victories at the US Open, with a total of 101 wins.

Holds the record for most French Open singles titles, with a total of seven.

Holds the record for most consecutive clay court victories, with a total of 125 during a six-year span.

Holds the record for best winning percentage at the end of her career, with a %.900 winning percentage.

Won 157 singles titles after her 289th event. When Navratilova matched her record, she had played her 343rd event.

Yes a marvellous feat by the legendary Evert and she is often overlooked in these discussions, unfairly so as her consistency at the top over such a long period is remarkeable to say the least.

And by the same token, for the youngsters in here I feel I must also point out a few figures for Margaret Court (yes, the BFTP posters will have seen all this before in my previous defence cases - LOL).

BTW, I am NOT saying Court is the greatest ever as I don't believe anyone is the greatest ever. There are many greats and you just CANNOT compare them accurately - the ones who stand out in my mind are Lenglen, Wills, Connolly, Court, Evert, Navratilova, and Graf to date. My heart also says Seles as I think fate unfairly destroyed her march to destiny as an all time great.

Margaret Court:
* Won 157 singles titles after 231 events - to compare her record to that of other greats: Evert (157 of 289) and Navratilova (157 from 343).
* Won more singles titles than anyone in history with 190+ (from 289 played!)
* Overall singles career won 1125 matches and lost 98 (92% strike rate) - this is the best singles winning percentage of all the modern greats since 1960.
* Won more Grand Slams singles than anyone in history
* Won more Grand Slam titles (including Doubles & MIxed) than anyone
* Won calendar Grand Slam in 1970 (only Connolly & Graf have done this)
* Highest winning percentage in the Slams overall since 1960 (and still the highest without the Aussie Opens factored in)
* Won 3 out the 4 Singles Slam titles in 4 years (other than her Grand Slam in 1970)
* Won over 150 Doubles titles
* Won Grand Slam Mixed Doubles with Ken Fletcher
* Unbeaten in Fed Cup singles (20 wins)
* Along with Navratilova, the only other player in history to have won ALL Grand Slam titles - singles, doubles and mixed.
* Won Triple titles at Grand Slam (eg. Singles, Doubles & Mixed)
* Came back after having her first child in 1972 to dominate a stellar 1973 season including 3 of the 4 Slams!

And to quote Preacherfan (I hope you don't mind):
"The amazing stat to me is that Margaret Court was ranked #1 in every full season she played between '62 and '73 except for 1968. That's a lengthy dominance that neither King nor Evert, nor Navratilova nor Graf can claim."

Margaret Court's defense lawyer is now going to get a gelati ! :p

Zauber
Dec 18th, 2005, 08:11 AM
Steffi and Martina heads and shoulders above everyone else.
Absolutely no doubt.

KimC&MariaSNo1's
Dec 18th, 2005, 08:23 AM
id say steffi

Mafia_Sharapova
Dec 18th, 2005, 08:27 AM
of course is Martina Navratilova
but i like Chris Evert :)

Porcupine
Dec 18th, 2005, 12:00 PM
So do I haha.
Navratilova is the greatest ever.
My second choice is Monica Seles,lol

andrewbroad
Dec 28th, 2005, 11:09 PM
Monica Seles (http://www.geocities.com/andrewbroad/tennis/seles/) is the greatest tennis-player of all time because she proved it as a matter of principle by the glory of her Comeback from the Stabbing.

--
Dr. Andrew Broad
http://www.geocities.com/andrewbroad/ (http://www.geocities.com/andrewbroad/)
http://www.geocities.com/andrewbroad/tennis/ (http://www.geocities.com/andrewbroad/tennis/)
http://www.geocities.com/andrewbroad/tennis/seles/ (http://www.geocities.com/andrewbroad/tennis/seles/)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/selesians/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/selesians/)

Billy Moonshine
Dec 29th, 2005, 01:01 AM
Steffi.
I don't care about the circumstances surrounding her 22 GS Titles, she got them fair and square as far as I'm concerned, beating the opposition, and she's damn right the best player I ever watched in my whole life!

KoOlMaNsEaN
Dec 29th, 2005, 01:05 AM
between martina and steffi.
didnt pick margaret or suzanne since they didnt have much competition

Oizo
Dec 29th, 2005, 02:19 AM
Steffi :worship: Always And Forever :worship: Because after all the injuries and problems she had, she still broke so many records and won so many slams. A unique achiement of course: the Golden Slam :worship:

alfajeffster
Dec 29th, 2005, 12:31 PM
between martina and steffi.
didnt pick margaret or suzanne since they didnt have much competition

In other words, you just don't know enough about their competition to make an educated guess. Here's a couple snapshots of Margaret's competition. Recognize anybody? I know- so many of them are totally unrecognizable relics with cobwebs in their hair, and none of them really did anything in tennis, but still, they all had their moments...

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a223/alfajeffster/KingBVapple.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a223/alfajeffster/EvonneBHslice.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a223/alfajeffster/Buenoballerina.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a223/alfajeffster/ChrisHV.jpg

tennislover
Dec 29th, 2005, 02:33 PM
that detestable German girl is topping my adorable idol?
that's
disgraceful

Geisha
Dec 29th, 2005, 06:34 PM
It says "greatest women's tennis player of all-time".

Definately Navratilova.

If it said "Greatest Women's Singles Player of All-Time"...I would have chosen Graf.



Definitely, not definately.

Geisha
Dec 29th, 2005, 06:35 PM
between martina and steffi.
didnt pick margaret or suzanne since they didnt have much competition


Margaret and Suzanne didn't have much competition because they were so much better than everybody else!