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RockSteady
May 4th, 2002, 08:24 PM
The Williams sisters, in 2002, have all but shut out the competition. Many fans have been saying they have been the best for a few years now, but it was easy for detractors to point to underachieving Grand Slam results, an underachieving ranking, too few tournaments, and a losing record against other top players. Everything was an “if” or a “maybe” (maybe if they can win on clay, maybe if they get to #1 or #2, maybe if they play more tournaments).

But Venus’ recent win over Martina Hingis was the official nail on the coffin: nobody in women’s tennis is better than the Williams sisters.

Not that I think they are great tennis players in the traditional sense, nor do I think they are better than players like Hingis or Capriati at their prime. Nor do I think they have “pretty” games, and they aren’t earth shattering doubles players.

But when a Williams sister walks out on the court against anybody, they are the favorite, by far. Let us face it: their last dozen or so losses, they beat themselves. The only recent matches (not against each other) where I can truly say “okay, the other player WON, the Williams didn’t hand it to them” was in the last two Australian Opens: Seles against Venus, Hingis against Serena. That’s one loss per year where the other player actually “wins”, in a sense. That just shows how dictating they are.

The question is, how long will this trend last? Is there anybody who can beat a Williams sister at least 50% of the time? Let’s look at the top players, and how they tend to do against Venus and Serena.

Martina Hingis

Up until last year, Hingis was the thorn in the backside of Venus and Serena. Winning records against both of them, a brutal 6-1 6-1 crushing of Venus, eliminated them in many Slams, etc. In fact, Hingis would make jokes about it. But since Australia 2001, Hingis is 0-5 against the Williams sisters. Four of those losses were in straight sets, two were under an hour, and the one three set match against Serena never appeared close anyway. Her loss to Venus today on clay is perhaps the most telltale sign; she lost to the sister she prefers to play on the surface she prefers to play on.

So what can she do? For Hingis, I would hate to say her time is up, but it is. I think she has more Slams to win, and will beat Venus and Serena many more times, but it is hard to see her beating them consistently. They keep improving, and Martina is maxed-out. What can she do to improve her game, really? For her physical restrictions, she does what she can. First, she needs to consistently beat the Tier II power players (Capriati, Dementieva, Dokic, etc) before she tries to tackle the Williams sisters.

Lindsay Davenport

Here is a player who always beat Venus, but like Hingis, has lost that dominance and gone zero for her last five against the sisters. She is the only player on tour who truly has as much power and more consistence than the Williams sisters, and the only player who can match their serves in mph. But the problem here is simple: Davenport is tall, strong, and aggressive. The Williams sisters are tall, strong, aggressive, and FAST.

I cannot picture Lindsay scoring many more wins against either sister. If she does, it will be a service-holding affair. Besides, Lindsay’s commitment to the game has been shoddy: constant injuries, and the fact that she seems content to not play tennis points to retirement some time soon.

Jennifer Capriati

Capriati is zero for her last five against the Williams sisters, and her seeming dominance of Serena has ended. The problem with Capriati is she is “Williams 90%”. She runs 90% as fast as them, hits it 90% as hard, serves it 90% as well, mixes is it up 90% as much, is 90% as successful as them at net, hits 90% as many winners. The problem with this is of course, she does nothing better. Maybe Jen has a better forehand, but not as good of a backhand as either of them. So what this means is that if both Jen and Venus/Serena are playing their best, Jen will lose. And Venus and Serena have been playing their best a lost recently. However, of all the players, Jen is CURRENTLY the biggest threat to take a Williams sister if either of them are slightly off their game.

Monica Seles

She deserves a round of applause. Of all the players on tour (besides Shaughnessy), Monica is the only one who has a good recent record against the Williams sisters…she is two for her last three. And full credit goes to her for her win over Venus in Australia (despite what some say, Venus showed no signs of injury except in the first set, the set Venus won anyway). But the times Monica has been winning she has been “in the zone”, if you will, playing at 100%. I put her in the “Lindsay Davenport” category…she can beat the Williams sisters every once in a while if she serves good enough.

Justine Henin

I have a hard time picturing Justine ever beating a Williams sister. Yes, you heard me right. She just doesn’t have the game. She does everything almost as well as the Williams sisters, but makes more errors doing it. Perhaps she tries too hard on each shot, and maybe it is her serve. But Serena has crushed Henin in the past, and if it’s not on clay, Venus has too. The problem is, once she gets close, Henin has a choking problem. Henin might stop one of them at Roland Garros in the future. Other than that…

So there are most of the top players on tour, and all of them are rather SOL when they play Venus or Serena. From this point forth I see each winning about ¼ times. So can anyone beat the Williams sisters consistently? No, not at all. But there are two players who have the potential.

Kim Clijsters

Kim Clijsters, you say? Absolutely. Although her last two matches against the sisters were jokes (a 6-2 6-0 crushing at the hands of Serena, and the official ugliest match ever at the US Open quarters to the hands of Venus), she has more game than any other top ten player. She runs as fast as both sisters, but moves less awkwardly. She hits the ball off the ground with at least as much velocity as both players, but with more depth and topspin. She volleys better, and has much better drop shots and slices. So why has she come close to but never beaten either sister?

She has two problems: her serve and her consistency. When Venus makes an error, it is because she is going for the winner. Kim Clijsters goes on into these funks where she makes errors just for the sake of making errors…where every shot she hits, even if she’s not going for anything, sails long. Her other problem is her serve. This is the only part of her game that will absolutely never become as good as Venus’ or Serena’s. But other than that, she has the potential to do everything they do, but better, when she “fills out” her game.

Daniela Hantuchova

Here is the biggest question mark, the wild card. Daniela has the forehand, backhand, and court coverage of Venus, the great second serve of Serena, and some nice variety. But what she lacks is consistency and experience. She gets nervous, and tends to send balls into the net. That’s fine: Venus used to do the exact same thing when she was a young player on tour. Daniela is the Venus of three years ago, no doubt. She should iron that out. But this will take time: she needs to get matches under her belt before she becomes completely comfortable. Not to mention the fact that she might not always get to play Venus or Serena, as she tends to lose early.

So there you have it. Kim Clijsters is, realistically, the next major threat to Venus and Serena, with Daniela Hantuchova close behind. But with these players still young and learning how to complete their games, the next two or three years are wide-open for Venus and Serena.

So what do you think? Do you think there is any player who currently can beat a sister half the times they play, or are there young players with the potential? Thoughts?

E. Blackadder
May 4th, 2002, 08:41 PM
Absolutely agree! Finally someone that doesn't ignore Kim! Did you know that Kim was last year 5/3 ahead of Serena in the finals of indian wells in the last set? But then she missed som experiance so that Serena still won that match.

But now if Kim has a good day, she can beat Venus and Serena, especially on clay. Maybe tomorrow in Hamburg or maybe Serena in the SF of Berlin... We'll see, but one day I know she will do it

thefreedesigner
May 4th, 2002, 08:44 PM
I appreciate the time taken to do this RockSteady, but why no mention of Jelena Dokic? Just a thought!

I'm going out now, but I'll take time to think through what you've written later.

:)

Cybelle Darkholme
May 4th, 2002, 08:44 PM
Wow great post. I agree with almost everything you said, but the fact of the matter is that not every day will be for Venus and Serena. Oh I would love it if they won all the time but that just isn't reasonable. Witness, sandrine testud, patty snyder and as you mentioned, monica seles have take out a williams sister this year.

To me their current level of play just reinforces what people said years ago, that the two have yet to realize their potential. In fact even today the sisters supreme can improve on so much that they can only get better and better and better with the proper commitment to the game.

I'm so sure about kim but I think youre dead on with daniela. That girl is little vee and will one day slug it out with her for tour dominance.

I do think you write lindsay off a little too early though. The woman is what 25? I think jennifer is older than lindsay so she still has at least five more years left.

Martina can still gain back lost ground if only she would improve her serve. she needs to seriously consider rebuilding it like henin did.

jen, well I'm not too fond of her at all. In my mind she has become since winning the 2001 AO the evil stepchild of the wta. she has a great game but sometimes her behavior and attitude sucks the big one.

henin is so lovely to watch. I think if she can get a grip on her mental block that she will continue to flourish as a player, the same with kim really but somehow i just dont see kim challenging the sisters though im probably wrong.

monica, well i love her to death but really I'm thinking she has only two or three years left to grab another slam. so she better grab it while the grabbing is good.

HEAVYHITTER
May 4th, 2002, 08:54 PM
Great analysis RockSteady.

Whereas, I don't see anyone in the future beating them with any consistency. I see them beating themselves. I measure them against themselves.

Therefore, I see Serena dominating. She REALLY wants it. She has the fire and the drive. I remember Richard (the father) stating that all Serena thinks about is her game. That told me alot. She's focusing, a few tweaks here and there and its Cruise Control.

An
May 4th, 2002, 08:55 PM
I agree that the William sisters are very dominated. And thank you for taking Kim serious!!
But what I don't like about the Williams sister is their father Richard. He thinks that WTA stands for Williams tennis association and says that his girls are the best. Well, I think that a little bit modisty is needed for this man. It' s true that his girls are very good but he must show also respect for other players.

Anyway I hope that Kim will win tomorrow!!!

A huge Lleyki

An ;)

"Topaz"
May 4th, 2002, 08:55 PM
Great post, RockSteady, and good reply Cybelle.

I do think the FASHION business might do it. ;)

E. Blackadder
May 4th, 2002, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by cybelledarkholmexx
I'm so sure about kim but I think youre dead on with daniela. That girl is little vee and will one day slug it out with her for tour dominance.

Who's little vee? Kim or Daniela?

Cybelle Darkholme
May 4th, 2002, 09:00 PM
I think you should learn to judge people on their actions and not the actions of their parents. I know a some very honest and good people who parents just happen to be racist pigheaded snots. Does that mean I have to turn around and dislike their children if their children are nothing like them? My answer is no and hope yours would be too.

You see I like Richard and take what he says with a grain of salt. I think too many people try to take him seriously when he is really just having fun at their expense. And even if he means every word, he is not his daugters. They are the tennis players not him. The same goes with jennifer and stefano, i will never blame jennifer for the antics of her father. He has to be accountable for himself, not his daughter


little vee is daniela because her game and body type is so similar to venus

kim is her own woman.

An
May 4th, 2002, 09:07 PM
I didn't mean to say that I don't like Venus and Serena because I do like them. But Richard not, on the circuit he is not a popular man and I understand why. Serious, sometimes he have to watch his mounth and change his attitude.

An

Volcana
May 4th, 2002, 09:18 PM
Well, Kim is ranked #3. The fact that she's the 'next' big challenge isn't rocket science.

Any player who wants to beat Venus and Serena consistently has to improve over their own current level.

Jenn won't become a better player than she is now.
Lindsay won't become a better player than she is now.
Monica won't become a better player than she is now.

Martina COULD become a better player than she is now. Enough better to challenge Venus and Serena? Quien sabe?

Kim WILL become a better player than she is now. And the player she is now is #3 in the world and made the RG final last year.

Kart
May 4th, 2002, 09:20 PM
I basically agree with what you wrote Rocksteady :) except that I think you underestimate the potential for Lindsay to beat Williams sisters if she returns to full health. I think we have to wait until she comes back.

Also, if she stays healthy for long enough, I think that Amelie will eventually post some wins over Serena and Venus in the future. She has the game to, although I have to admit I can't see it happening in the imminent future.

Serena y Monica
May 4th, 2002, 09:25 PM
Not that I think they are great tennis players in the traditional sense, nor do I think they are better than players like Hingis or Capriati at their prime. Nor do I think they have “pretty” games, and they aren’t earth shattering doubles players.

Okay so how does one play great tennis in the traditional sense:rolleyes:

Let's see Hingis' time of dominance was in a vacuum. Now that the rest of the field has caught up she is what she always was...a good player with no weapons but a love of strategy.

Capriati...Just lol, you'll have to forgive me.

Was this supposed to be a compliment, cause it's not. More importantly it shows just how bitter you are that these two "non traditional" players just may be the greatest ever...besides Steffi. Afterall they are reigning over the toughest competition women's tennis ever faced;)

Fingon
May 4th, 2002, 09:36 PM
I don't agree regarding the two Belgians.

Kim isn't as fast as Venus and Serena, she slides on hardcourts to get to the ball, but that's dangerous.

She doesn't hit as hard as them, not even close.

I agree she has a better overall game, she volleys better, places the ball better and moves better, but Kim is essentially a power player and with power alone, she is not going to beat the Williams sisters. To beat them in their own game you need to be stronger and/or faster than them and IMO nobody is. The big question is, does Kim have other weapons to beat them? maybe, but I haven't seen it yet.

Regarding Justine, she doesn't have a chance??? well, it's true that she chokes, it's true that her serve sucks at the moment and she is in a bit of a slump.

But what other player has had Venus 6-2 4-0?, she was one point away of being 5-0 in the second set.

Justine doesn't have Kim's power, but has more variety in her game, something that IMO is the only thing that can beat the Williams sisters if they are on. She needs to keep focused the whole match, and she needs to stop choking. But the fact that she has choked against them is significant isn't it?, you can only choke if you are ahead, if you are favoured to win the match. What other top 10 players have been in that position in the last two years?

We all know that Serena was on fire at the US Open last year, and yes, she won the second set against Justine 6-0, but Justine just gave up in that set, the first set was very close and wasn't decided until the very end, at some point in the match, Justine was even dictating, how many player have dictated against Serena on hardcourts?

What I mean, she does have the weapons, I don't mean it's easy or will happen often, and she obviously needs to overcome her mental problems, but that's all workable, it's much more difficult to develop new weapons. Think, if Justine has pushed Venus to 3 sets 4 times, serving like crap, do you imagine what she could do serving well?

Tatiana Panova
May 4th, 2002, 09:59 PM
I think the Williams are going to dominate but Kim, Justine and Jelena are going to be there. Lets face it if Jelena could just get a big serve she would be deadly. As soon as Kim can iron out her game a bit and get rifd of these weird injuries she should be a major force. I don't Justine is going to dominate the Williams on a very fast court, but on a slower surface should really win. Daniela Hatuchova is going to be a major threat also in future years. Don't count Lindsay out yet.

In general though there are several players who will challenge the Williams we don't even know about yet - the new generation over the next five years.

Infiniti2001
May 4th, 2002, 10:11 PM
Well knock me over with a feather <evil grin>
I don't usually agree with you but there's always a first time right?? I really appreciate the time and effort you took for this commentary. Thank you !

I always knew that the sisters (especially Venus) would be a force on the tour, but it was just a matter of time as far as I was concerned... I am not sure I would have felt this way had they played on the junior tour like Anna and Martina --- although by not playing juniors, they started their pro careers with a serious handicap. Not that I am taking anything away from Martina, but let's face it , she caught a lucky break by coming out of Juniors and hitting a dry period in women's tennis. The competition today is way tougher (is that a word?) than back then. She is not a favourite of mine, but from watching Andre Agassi & Jennifer Capriati , I know not to write her off just yet.

Lindsay will have an occasional win over the sisters, but I just can't see her them dominating (especially Venus) , unless by some miracle she is quicker) . Last night and this morning I watched Venus's last 3 matches from Pilot Pen 2001-- and let me tell you --- her best match was in the final against Lindsay... Their games are very similar, but she pretty much does everything better to me, and let's not forget her athletism--- I can say the same for Monica and Jen as well.
We all know the Lindsay vs Serena story :)

I can't really comment on Kim, because I haven't seen that many of her matches, but from what I've seen thus far , I think she stands a better chance against Serena.

Justine's got game , but only time can tell at this point.
I really like Jelena Dokic and think she is a good player, but I don't think she is ready to compete with Venus and Serena yet . (although she brought Vee to tears at Rome in 2000 :sad: )
Hate to admit it but I also think that Daniela is Venus of a few years ago... She will definately have her say in the near future.

okay I'll get off my tennis box now... Thanks again for seeing what many Williams fans have been saying Rocksteady

:wavey:

Ryan
May 4th, 2002, 10:14 PM
RockSteady captured everything I wanted to say and made it sound extremely good.:)

Although, I think Justine can and will challenge the sisters once she can cut odwn on the errors, and get over that damn mental block. Fingon is right about Kim, but I still think she has excellent chances against both.

Lindsay, I can see beating either of them when she's 'in the zone' or they're completely out of it. Her dedication isn't there anymore, but who knows what she's still capable of.

Martina: you touched a soft spot. I want to believe she can beat them, but never again will she beat them consistantly. In the future Martina CAN become a better player, her serve needs an entire demolition and re-construction(a la Henin) and she needs to be AGGRESSIVE. Martina can put the sisters on the ropes, and dictate at times when she commits to. Otherwise she's like a lackluster flower wilting in the sun. She'll get more wins over Jen soon, I think, and maybe dominate their head-to head again, but not against either sister.


Excellent analysis Rock, look forward to more.:)

BK4ever
May 4th, 2002, 10:14 PM
Rocksteady...I love when people start threads such as this, based on the game and not personalities. I agree with alot of what you said but there are alot of wholes in analysis.

Your comment about Davey always beating Venus is correct if one looks at the overall record. But since the start of 1999, they have played 12 times with Venus winning 8 of those matchups and winning the last three.

Do you seriously think that Capriati and Hingis are better than the sisters?:confused: If each of them brought their A game, Venus and Serena would win, and that my friend is a fact.

Fignon Kim is not a better mover than Venus and Serena!


Rhythmboy I will agree that her variety gives her a good chance against them on the slow clay, but the outcome could either be a very close match or a blowout in favor of the sisters.

cybelledarkholmexx I can't agree with you more about the sisters failing to reach to potential as yet. They still have not perfected the task of controlled agression; needs to improve their net play; adding the slice more; and Venus doing more with her second serve.

This is the reason why it is scary that they do so well. They are probably playing at 70% of their potential and have already achieved alot. If they were to play to their full potential, it would be AMAZING.

There are very few players that I consider potential and or serious threats to the sisters and they are Henin, Kim, Amelie, Jen and Davenport and maybe Daniela.

P.S...I think what happens to alot of players who play the sisters close, i.e., Henin and Hingis is that they get worn down trying to constantly fight off the power. Henin has mentioned that as a problem in all of her losses to the sisters on hardcourts.

ot1962
May 4th, 2002, 10:46 PM
RockSteady,
You have out-done yourself!! That's a very well written piece. Thanks for the effort.

On Kim, from what i have seen of her so far i do not believe she would be a big threat to the Sisters. Mainly because her game matches the sisters very well. But she is still developing her game. I shall wait to see further leap in her game before i will be convinced. Actually i would rate Jelena more, based on potential.

I believe the main threat to the Sister would be a player we don't know yet. This player would learn their style and come up with something extra.

But from the current players, i believe Lindsay is the biggest threat if she comes back with the same desire she had. She is able to beat them in a dominating way. She would need to have the desire for the game.

Daniela, i would wait a year or so. SHe seem too vulnerable to lower ranked players. The potential is there but i can't see her being athletic enough. SHe gives up chasing a lot of balls when moved from side to side. As i said she is still young and the potential is there. She needs to be stronger.


All in all, they would be each other's biggest threat. I remember Serena saying that the QUEEN is her biggest threat. People thought it was ridiculous (arrogant to the non-fans, maybe). Well, her statements do not seem far-fetched now, do they?
:bounce:

Williams Rulez
May 5th, 2002, 02:29 AM
This is a really good post RockSteady, though I do not agree completely.

I think that Justine is a threat to Venus, when she is playing well at least.

And Kim is not as fast, and doesn't hit the ball as hard as Venus/Serena, the only players who do that, and can do that for a full match, are Lindsay and Monica, however, Lindsay and Monica are just too slow, and they have got to be playing close to 100% to beat Venus and Serena now.

I've no idea who the biggest threat to Venus/Serena is right now, but after a few more months, maybe we'll see...

Fingon
May 5th, 2002, 03:01 AM
One thing has to be clear.

I don't believe anyone will consistently beat the sisters with power and speed, no way, you need their power, and their speed

When I saw Serena in person I was really impressed by the power she generates, it's simply amazing. I haven't seen Lindsay and Venus in person, but I've seen Mary Pierce, Monica and Jennifer, and in the power department they are light years away from Serena (maybe Mary can be about the same, but she doesn't hit every shot like that).

Said that, to beat them (assuming they are on) you need to do something different. For that reason, there are only 3 current players that IMO have to potential to do it, Martina, Justine and Monica, remember I said potential, not actual capability.

TSequoia01
May 5th, 2002, 03:27 AM
It takes a lifetime to hit a tennisball like Venus and Serena. I remember in 98 and 99 when naysayers felt that all they did was hit the ball hard. How far from the truth was that. They both play an extremely high risk game, it takes great athleticism and creativity to play as they do. Few players can pull it off. Everyone says to Marti "play more aggressive and paint the lines". She really does not have the coordination to play that style for long. It takes years and years of practice to hit those shots. So I agree Fingon, it will be tough for anyone to beat them at their game. It will take an all around game of finesse and defense, but with an ability to go offense given the opportunity. For this reason I like Henin, Dokic, Clijsters, and possibly "lil v" Daniela. :cool:

ptkten
May 5th, 2002, 03:31 AM
Williams dominance?? I think it should be Venus dominance of the tour. Maybe Serena has been dominant on the regular tour but until she wins another slam, her last one was 99(the same year as Hingis' last one), I don't consider her a "dominant" force on tour. Venus on the other hand, when she wants to win, can not be beat.

Pureracket
May 5th, 2002, 03:34 AM
If you measure by slams, then I would certainly say that JenCap is the dominant force.

TSequoia01
May 5th, 2002, 03:45 AM
Ptkten writes

__________________________________________________

Williams dominance?? I think it should be Venus dominance of the tour. Maybe Serena has been dominant on the regular tour but until she wins another slam, her last one was 99(the same year as Hingis' last one), I don't consider her a "dominant" force on tour.
__________________________________________________ __

That is fair because why count your chickens before they hatch? As far as Serena goes; when she won the 99 Open the pressures of expectations began to creep in. Not right away, because she came right back and won the Grand Slam Cup beating Venus and Lindsay along the way. She had to learn how to deal with the incredible pressures of being the hunted rather than the hunter. After Wimbledon of last year she finally began to deal with this. Both Serena and Venus to a lesser extent are evolving. Serena has arrived, it does not matter what you or I consider. She "is" a dominant force on the WTA. She will win slams, tournies, and anything else out there to be won because she is just that good.
But I understand....hmmm you're not from Missouri are you?
;)

Volcana
May 5th, 2002, 04:51 AM
2002 champion - tournament (Biggest tournament that week)

Williams - Gold Coast
Hingis - Sydney
Capriati - OZ
Hingis - Toray
Williams - Paris
Williams - Antwerp
Mauresmo - Dubai
Williams - Scottsdale
Hantuchova - Indian Wells
Williams - Miami
Williams - Amelia Island
Schnyder - Charleston

Williams or Clijsters - Hamburg

Domination or no, the name 'Williams' appears a lot in a list of 2002 champions.

CanadianBoy21
May 5th, 2002, 04:56 AM
Correction Volcana, Iva Majoli won Charleston, not Schnyder

CanadianBoy21
May 5th, 2002, 04:57 AM
& to answer the question, "SO WHO CAN STOP THE WILLIAMS DOMINATION",

Anna Kournikova...

lol
So the answer is basically nobody

Becool
May 5th, 2002, 05:02 AM
That's right Volcana ;)

Becool
May 5th, 2002, 05:04 AM
And superhero ;)

Kart
May 5th, 2002, 10:32 AM
The name Williams appears on that list a lot and yet I'd bet both would trade all those titles for just the one that has Capriati's name beside it.

Quite amusing really, but IMHO goes to show how difficult it is to justify judging a player's career solely on the number of slams they've won.

jomar
May 5th, 2002, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by Superhero
& to answer the question, "SO WHO CAN STOP THE WILLIAMS DOMINATION",

Anna Kournikova...

lol
So the answer is basically nobody

how about Richard Williams.:rolleyes: :cool: :rolleyes:

sartrista7
May 5th, 2002, 12:54 PM
Excellent analysis RockSteady, and a very interesting question which the rest of the Tour face. (And need to face imo - I love Venus to bits, but one or two-player domination is always boring.)

I agree with you about Daniela Hantuchova. She won't do it soon - and who knows, she might fall prey to Elena Dementieva-ism and be seemingly content as a #11-20 player - but she definitely has the potential to be at least as good as the Williams sisters.

Kim... maybe. If she continues to improve, there's no reason why not. But I think you're severely underestimating Justine Henin, who is the player I believe WILL be Venus' main rival in around 2 years' time. Look at their head-to-head: Venus may have won the last 5 matches, but 4 of those were 3-setters. Look at what Justine's game is capable of: the variety of her groundstrokes, her speed, her tactical nous. Look at what Venus herself has said about her - something to the effect of 'when she's on, I'm just a spectator on court' (and although, like most other players, Venus is always complimentary to her opponent, this statement goes beyond PR.) Look at how much more Justine can improve: yes, Kim can improve, but there isn't much about Kim's game which is that bad right now. Justine's serve isn't great. Justine's focus isn't that great. Justine's penchant for choking is dreadful. All of those things can, and will, be improved.

Martina certainly has the potential to become a better player, good enough to regularly beat both Williamses. But then, Anna Kournikova has the potential to win Wimbledon (yes, I mean that). She hasn't shown any willingness to do so to the extent she needs to. I frankly don't believe she will, not this year anyway.

When Mary Pierce is in the zone, she's good enough to beat anyone anywhere in about 40 minutes. Trouble is, she's in the zone, like, once every five years.

Note regarding dominance: Venus is favourite for all her matches, regardless of surface. Yesterday, I would have thought it was 50-50 Martina/Venus, but she proved me wrong there. Serena? Against which top players, precisely, is Serena favourite against on clay? She can certainly win on it, and I'd expect her to post very good results this season, but she simply hasn't adapted her game enough yet. If they're at 100%, most top 30 players who can play on clay can take it to her. In a few years' time, this may be different, but we'll have to wait and see.

TheLasVegasKid
May 5th, 2002, 01:14 PM
I think the major problem is injuries.The williams sisters move welle but i think they are rather brutal in their movement trying always to go 110% wich is great .but they get injured quite often because of that.
I think they are not dominating yet,but if they continue like this and start to dominate all year long (why not a williams Grand Slam) then I would say that their dominance has begun.
Remember that Graf won the GS in 88 at the beginning of her dominance.
Venus has the ability to be one of the biggest player of all time
she has the mental and the game.she has to win the french for that and the oz and i think that now it`s her main goal.
For me ,in RG she is not more of a favorite than capriati,henin, kim serena or iva for that matter.they all have the chance to take it,given a good draw and beeing healthy.for me that is not dominance yet

Williams Rulez
May 5th, 2002, 01:17 PM
Kim just beat Venus... and after this, I can't help but think that Kim and Justine are Venus/Serena's greatest rivals...

E. Blackadder
May 5th, 2002, 01:20 PM
KIM CLIJSTERS! She just proved it by beating Venus Williams 1/6 6/3 6/4 :bounce: Watch out! Here comes the 2002 HAMBURG CHAMPION

barmaid
May 5th, 2002, 01:23 PM
Well, Kim had the answer for Venus today winning 1-6, 6-3 and 6-4 Way to go Kim!!:D


barmaid:wavey:

Mazza
May 5th, 2002, 01:25 PM
I'll have to go with Kim after her terrific win over Venus! Hopefully she can keep it up!! :D Go Kim!

gentenaire
May 5th, 2002, 01:27 PM
Kim's recent win shows how good your analysis is, Rocksteady.

No matter how you look at it, the Williams sisters will always be the favourites. I'm very glad Kim won today. It's possible that next time they play, Kim losed badly. I don't see it happening the other way around though. When Kim's on, she's on, when she's off, she's off completely and makes loads of UEs.
Let's hope Kim can keep it up for the French :)

angele87
May 5th, 2002, 01:34 PM
YAY!! I hope Kimmie is a permanent challenge to Venus and Serena :)

herodoto
May 5th, 2002, 01:50 PM
try to spell slowly this name "williams fans" K I M!!!! :p but is not the only one who can do it.
my prediction: this year either, venus or serena will be the champions, no sir, no them, maybe K I M , but not them
thanx kimmie, thnx honey i am soo happy today:) :)

Cybelle Darkholme
May 5th, 2002, 01:59 PM
:rolleyes:

Most wililams fans are kim fans as well, so what exactly is your point here? Kim had a great win and she's a classy champion, lets hope some of that rubs off on you.

Congrats kim you had a great win today! Nice job Venus you didnt take the title but you made it to the final and kept the number one spot! Woohoo!

wongqks
May 5th, 2002, 02:02 PM
well, I think this loss is good for Venus, she will reassess what she went wrong, as someboday said it is better for her to lose a match here now than a match in French Open. Still I believe she is still the favourite for French Open losing this match or not, but the list of contenders is growing. I can see the following people winning

Real contenders: Justine Venus Jennifer, Kim
Waiting list (depend on their upcoming tournament): Martina, Monica, Serena
Long shots (but can cause an upset over real contenders): Jelena, Amelie, Iva

Volcana
May 5th, 2002, 02:18 PM
Rocksteady - ROTFLMAO!!!

You just retired the award for 'Best Timing in Starting a Thread'.

Who's gonna challenge the domination of the Williams sisters?

"Gee, I don't know...."

Tell the truth. The match took place two days ago and we're all getting it on tape delay right? You paid off Venus? Kim is your cousin? I've never seen anyone start a thread and then have the players make him look this good.

My hat is off to you, buddy. DAMN fine timing. :)

irma
May 5th, 2002, 02:26 PM
I want a Kim-Serena final at the french open like always so no totally williams domination there;)(sorry venus fans;))

Toineefa
May 5th, 2002, 02:27 PM
The Willi's will be the favourites most of the time but Jennifer will always be dangerous to them because she knows how to beta them at their own game. When Lindsay returns and is match tough she will be able to handle the Willi's as well.

E. Blackadder
May 5th, 2002, 02:34 PM
Excuse me Toineefa, don't mean to bea rude but Capriati has never beaten Venus before. Also she lost I think the last 3 meetings with Serena.

TSequoia01
May 5th, 2002, 02:36 PM
Dang and Kim was one of the ones on my list. :fiery: But congrats Kim on a great win, it shows you are back in full force. :cool:

RockSteady
May 5th, 2002, 09:16 PM
:)

Don't want to break my arm patting myself on the back, but...

...great win Kim! Not a bad tournament for Venus though...a win over Schiavone, Arantxa, and Hingis on clay? Nothing to be ashamed of.

I read that Kim was "dominating with her power" in the second and third sets. Which makes me roll my eyes at the few of you that said Kim doesn't have anywhere near the power of the Williams sisters. Hello, Kim Clijsters is a power baseliner, and hits it every bit as hard as the Williams sisters. And she runs every bit as fast, too. She doesn't have the reach of Venus, but I'd say she is in second along with Serena.

It's exactly why I picked her, because she is the only player who can match up with speed and power with Venus and Serena. Everybody else lacks one or the other, or does both almost as well.

For the person screaming at me for saying they don't play good traditional tennis, I stick by my point. They are great athletes, but they seem like "athletes with a tennis racket" sometimes. That doesn't mean I think they are bad (as I said in my original post, they dominate), but they play games that are...unorthodox.

LucasArg
May 5th, 2002, 09:19 PM
Venus and Serena are dominating the tour.

THEY ARE THE BEST:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

Hagar
May 11th, 2002, 10:16 PM
If Justine beats Serena tomorrow (and she has a good chance), the answer will be obvious. Who can stop the Williams sisters? The Belgian teens, in other words: Kim and Justine!
Come on, Justine, you can do this!

TeeRexx
May 11th, 2002, 10:44 PM
Answer to this thread: No One!

The tour will have to live with this situation for a few years it seems. :p

Hagar
May 12th, 2002, 03:15 PM
And the answer is... KIM AND JUSTINE!!!

HEAVYHITTER
May 12th, 2002, 03:21 PM
Hey Hagar;

Let's chat at the end of the season when you'll see all of summer and fall totally dominated.

Fingon
May 12th, 2002, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by HEAVYHITTER
Hey Hagar;

Let's chat at the end of the season when you'll see all of summer and fall totally dominated.

bitter aren't we? :p

DD
May 12th, 2002, 03:32 PM
NOBODY IS DOMINATING AT THE MOMENT.( CLAY SEASON). AFTER THIS WE WILL ALL SEE WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO THE WTA.
TOTAL DOMINATION BY THE WILLIAMS SISTERS.:bounce: :bounce:

HEAVYHITTER
May 12th, 2002, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by Fingon


bitter aren't we? :p

Bitter?

Not at all. I'm content with Justine's win, and with Serena making it to the finals. Now all the "she never made past the quarters on clay" talk can die.

I have a "KNOWING"

I KNOW Venus and Serena aint giving nothing up - to NOBODY this fall.

Cybelle Darkholme
Jan 19th, 2003, 07:38 PM
bump