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View Full Version : If Venus beats Kim tomorrow will that confirm her as a top claycourter?


"Topaz"
May 4th, 2002, 03:36 PM
Success at Roland Garros is considered by some as the gage of a player's clay court ability. In this light, Kim must be highly rated given that she almost won that trophy last year (6-1, 4-6, 10-12, remember?). Accordingly, beating her in a final on clay should propel one's clay rating way up.

So what do you think, considering Venus has recently beaten on clay other famous claycourters like Arantxa, Justine and Hingis?

kazzmazz
May 4th, 2002, 03:37 PM
Yes. Which is scary considering clay is her worst surface by far.

Sofiane
May 4th, 2002, 03:55 PM
She deosn't need to defeat Kim to confirm it. I think by defeating Hingis she showed that she can play on red clay.
Against Kim it's 50%/50% chance.
BTW It's funny how Kim is called now a great caly courter, as of last year before RG she lost almost all her matches on red caly, the girl is a fast learner :).

XMan
May 4th, 2002, 03:57 PM
If she beats Kim then Venus becomes the favourite to win the French Open

Gonzo Hates Me!
May 4th, 2002, 04:00 PM
Yeah, Sofiane! I always thought Kim sucked on clay--and she did, fact, but last year, despite me being obsessed with her, I kept telling everyone she wouldn't make it past R2 of RG, and then she kept proceeding and proceeding, until she reached the final! LOL! I felt so stupid. She shocked me and she never ceases to do that. I'm still so naive that I still doubt her on clay, but she has a game for the clay, I think she's really falling in love with it! LOL!

Still, to defeat her on clay IMO opinion doesn't make you a claycourter. I think to defeat the Spaniards, Hingis, Capriati, or the South Americans. I don't think of Dokic or Kimmy that way.

Well, Venus, aherm, I dunno. I don't think clay is her thing or anything, but she's an all-court player in my book. She just rocks wherever she plays. It looks like all the Top Girls are. I don't know if that makes them more interesting than the ATP or less interesting than the ATP! LOL! Both

Experimentee
May 4th, 2002, 04:01 PM
I dont think she needs to prove anything. She already is a top clay courter.

Williams Rulez
May 4th, 2002, 04:03 PM
I think Venus has proven that she is a good clay courter... beating Kim is just a bonus... :)

E. Blackadder
May 4th, 2002, 04:04 PM
But what if Kim beats Venus???? Will Kim then finally be accepted (and no longer be ignored) by photographers and press??? Venus already prooved that she can beat anyone!

Gonzo Hates Me!
May 4th, 2002, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by Rhythmboy
But what if Kim beats Venus???? Will Kim then finally be accepted (and no longer be ignored) by photographers and press??? Venus already prooved that she can beat anyone!

Eek, that would be beautiful man! C'mon Kimmy!

venusfan
May 4th, 2002, 05:08 PM
GO VENUS.... BEAT KIMBERLY TOMORROW AND SOLIDIFY YOURSELF AS THE FAVORIATE FOR ROLLAND GARROS, JUST DON'T WIN THE ITALIAN OPEN, IT'S A CURSE!!!!!

E. Blackadder
May 4th, 2002, 05:48 PM
KIMBERLY??????

CC
May 4th, 2002, 05:53 PM
Kimberly:eek:

selesfan1
May 4th, 2002, 06:15 PM
I thin for Venus or anybody to be considered an excellent clay courter they have to win Roland garros . If Venus were to beat Seles,Mauresmo,Capriati and the two austrains that have beaten her along with testud on clay and she'll have to beat henin again then I'll consider her a good clay court player but she still tries to hit the ball like if she were playing on a hardcourt. It's possible for her to do this but it will be tough but that's why she's playing more right. Oh yeah after she beats these people she'd have to win the French or beat them at the french.

Bright Red
May 4th, 2002, 07:33 PM
I agree with those who say that Venus has nothing more to prove to be recognizes as a top clay courter--regardless of it being her worst surface. And even if she wins the French, clay will never be considered her best surface because she's just so much better on hardcourts and grass.

Mikey
May 4th, 2002, 07:44 PM
i too agree that venus has nothing to prove. she is already one of the top clay court players. true, she isnt the best, but she doesnt need to be. playing on clay is good for her, b/c it makes her work on consistency, logic, and finesse - rather than always going for power. while she will probably never be the favorite to win the french, this year's looking better and better. a win here would only improve her readiness for RG.

Cam'ron Giles
May 4th, 2002, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by selesfan1
I thin for Venus or anybody to be considered an excellent clay courter they have to win Roland garros . If Venus were to beat Seles,Mauresmo,Capriati and the two austrains that have beaten her along with testud on clay and she'll have to beat henin again then I'll consider her a good clay court player but she still tries to hit the ball like if she were playing on a hardcourt. It's possible for her to do this but it will be tough but that's why she's playing more right. Oh yeah after she beats these people she'd have to win the French or beat them at the french.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Oh and by the way: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Mikey
May 4th, 2002, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by selesfan1
I thin for Venus or anybody to be considered an excellent clay courter they have to win Roland garros . If Venus were to beat Seles,Mauresmo,Capriati and the two austrains that have beaten her along with testud on clay and she'll have to beat henin again then I'll consider her a good clay court player but she still tries to hit the ball like if she were playing on a hardcourt. It's possible for her to do this but it will be tough but that's why she's playing more right. Oh yeah after she beats these people she'd have to win the French or beat them at the french.

lol - i completely missed this! so, ur saying that all of the people below are not good clay courters:
Amelie Mauresmo - multiple clay title wins last year and is from france, the site of the french open
Paola Suarez - beating meghann shaughnessy 2x in a row this year, she loves clay and has been doing very well on it
Anne Kremer - how many top ten players has she beaten this year on clay?
Martina Hingis - yeah, she doesnt really need a description
Jill Craybas - coming back from injury this year, she's been doing pretty well on clay also, she's beaten a couple top 10 this year also...
Sandrine Testud - im not sure if she loves clay, but she is french and her game is built towards the slow surfaces
Kim Clijsters - even though clay is probably her worst surface, she came close to winning the french, though she didnt
Justine Henin - once again, not a clay specialist, but she did almost beat Clijsters last year, and almost beat Venus at amelia island

these are just the names that come to mind. the list goes on and on, but these are just some notables. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

"Topaz"
May 4th, 2002, 08:40 PM
I can see, Selesfan1, you set the bar very high:
I think for Venus or anybody to be considered an excellent clay courter they have to win Roland garros . If Venus were to beat Seles, Mauresmo, Capriati and the two austrians that have beaten her along with Testud on clay and she'll have to beat henin again, then I'll consider her a good clay court player
If this is the standard, then nobody else but Seles is a good clay court player. I think you should revisit your statement. I'm not even sure Monica passed that test.

Some food for thought: the game is changing, things are dynamic, techniques are being refined and redefined to the point where you're as good as your last Tourney, your last Slam. Capriati and Kim, as far as clay is concerned, emerged only last year, while Venus bowed out in R1 at RG-01. This is arguably why most people consider Venus as a non performer on clay; she is referred to sometimes as a Summer girl. This year though, things are looking brighter for her. She has beaten some famed claycourters and she is the only top 10 player with 0 loss on clay this year; her record is 8-0. Hence the question: will she get proper recognition on clay if she wins tomorrow?

By the way, I don't think the bar should include the Austrians, not even the Spaniards. Women's tennis has moved on.

anton
May 4th, 2002, 08:46 PM
Clay is not Venus' worst surface, infoors is. She likes clay because she has time to hit her big loopy strokes. Indoors however is extremely fast and Venus can be rushed by a big hitter like Davenport.

disposablehero
May 4th, 2002, 10:51 PM
No, it wouldn't.

Certainly it would convince fools like me, who actually consider Kim a credible claycourt player based solely on the fact that she took a Roland Garros Final to 39 games.

But in the eyes of the informed majority, a victory over Kim means little.

Williams Rulez
May 5th, 2002, 02:32 AM
Well said disposable... ;)

Volcana
May 5th, 2002, 02:47 AM
No. Venus has already won a Tier I on clay, and 3 Tier II titles on clay. Winning Hamburg is only repeating something she's already done twice.

How good is Venus on clay?

There are about 25 players listed on the WTA website who have won 4 tournaments in their career. Even four Tier V's or something like that. Venus has already won four tournaments on clay and she's only 21. All Tier I and Tier II tournaments at that.

"Topaz"
May 5th, 2002, 03:58 AM
This is Venus' own response:
"I enjoy playing on clay, some people wrote that I wasn't a claycourt player, but I play on anything."
Translation: I am the same Venus, possibly #1 on any surface. There you have it, guys. The only question is whether a win tomorrow will finally convince you.

By the way, a win tomorrow is not to be considered a DETERMINANT, but just an additional factor. Think about that.

"Topaz"
May 5th, 2002, 02:39 PM
Hamburg's final: 16 63 64 Kim.

Now, after sending congrats to both girls, what do we think?

angele87
May 5th, 2002, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by TennisPower
Now, after sending congrats to both girls, what do we think?

I think people will stop saying Kim is not a threat on clay and that the only reason she got to the french final was because of her draw! :bounce: GO KIMMIE!

disposablehero
May 5th, 2002, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by TennisPower
Hamburg's final: 16 63 64 Kim.

Now, after sending congrats to both girls, what do we think?

Well, since neither one of them is considered a credible claycourt player, I assume it doesn't mean much. What the informed majority tells me is that Justine Henin is the only real threat on Clay. Apparently her aggressive strokes, lack of patience, and one handed backhand make her the ideal player for Clay. Also, Justine has won a 4a event on the stuff.

"Topaz"
May 5th, 2002, 05:20 PM
You're certainly right Angele87. When It comes to a dynamic endeavor like tennis or any other game, people are divided into several groups.
Some can detect new trends at the onset.
Some detect trends only when those trends are fully established.
Some never see new trends at all; they are stuck in yesterday's status quo.

This is why some do well in stock and money markets while some don't.

Kim does deserve due recognition by now. We may even be looking at a #1 in the making.

On the other hand, Venus has done very well thus far in this clay season. In her interview, she recognizes what she did wrong and where to improve. We can count on her for the balance of the season. RG is looking very exciting indeed!