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View Full Version : Venus Williams 2005: All Losses vs 'Elite' Wins


Volcana
Dec 3rd, 2005, 05:23 PM
Turns out, Venus didn't have a bad year by the standards of most top ten players. By her standards it has to be considered an off year.

GS AUSTRALIAN OPEN R16 [12] MOLIK........ L 7-5 7-6
T2 ANTWERP........ QTR [87] CLIJSTERS.... W 6-2 6-3
T2 ANTWERP........ SMI [06] MYSKINA...... W 6-3 3-6 6-3
T2 ANTWERP........ FIN [02] MAURESMO..... L 4-6 7-5 6-4
T2 DUBAI.......... R32 [21] FARINA ELIA.. L 7-5 7-6
T1 MIAMI.......... QTR [04] SERENA....... W 6-1 7-6
T1 MIAMI.......... SMI [03] SHARAPOVA.... L 6-4 6-3
T2 AMELIA ISLAND.. QTR [01] DAVENPORT.... L 1-6 6-3 6-4
T1 CHARLESTON..... R16 [25] GOLOVIN...... L 7-5 6-4
T3 ISTANBUL....... WIN
GS FRENCH OPEN.... R32 [98] KARATANTCHEVA L 6-3 1-6 6-1
GS WIMBLEDON...... QTR [10] PIERCE....... W 6-0 7-6
GS WIMBLEDON...... SMI [02] SHARAPOVA.... W 7-6 6-1
GS WIMBLEDON...... WIN [01] DAVENPORT.... W 4-6 7-6 9-7
FED CUP WEEK 2.... ... [05] DEMENTIEVA... W 6-1 6-2
FED CUP WEEK 2.... ... [10] MYSKINA...... L 5-7 6-4 6-2
T2 STANFORD....... FIN [12] CLIJSTERS.... L 7-5 6-2
GS US OPEN........ R16 [08] SERENA....... W 7-6 6-2
GS US OPEN........ QTR [04] CLIJSTERS.... L 4-6 7-5 6-1
T2 BEIJING........ w/o

Geisha
Dec 3rd, 2005, 05:26 PM
Venus went 83-6 at one point in her career - this was definitely an off year.

spencercarlos
Dec 3rd, 2005, 05:32 PM
Turns out, Venus didn't have a bad year by the standards of most top ten players. By her standards it has to be considered an off year.

GS AUSTRALIAN OPEN R16 [12] MOLIK........ L 7-5 7-6
T2 ANTWERP........ QTR [87] CLIJSTERS.... W 6-2 6-3
T2 ANTWERP........ SMI [06] MYSKINA...... W 6-3 3-6 6-3
T2 ANTWERP........ FIN [02] MAURESMO..... L 4-6 7-5 6-4
T2 DUBAI.......... R32 [21] FARINA ELIA.. L 7-5 7-6
T1 MIAMI.......... QTR [04] SERENA....... W 6-1 7-6
T1 MIAMI.......... SMI [03] SHARAPOVA.... L 6-4 6-3
T2 AMELIA ISLAND.. QTR [01] DAVENPORT.... L 1-6 6-3 6-4
T1 CHARLESTON..... R16 [25] GOLOVIN...... L 7-5 6-4
T3 ISTANBUL....... WIN
GS FRENCH OPEN.... R32 [98] KARATANTCHEVA L 6-3 1-6 6-1
GS WIMBLEDON...... QTR [10] PIERCE....... W 6-0 7-6
GS WIMBLEDON...... SMI [02] SHARAPOVA.... W 7-6 6-1
GS WIMBLEDON...... WIN [01] DAVENPORT.... W 4-6 7-6 9-7
FED CUP WEEK 2.... ... [05] DEMENTIEVA... W 6-1 6-2
FED CUP WEEK 2.... ... [10] MYSKINA...... L 5-7 6-4 6-2
T2 STANFORD....... FIN [12] CLIJSTERS.... L 7-5 6-2
GS US OPEN........ R16 [08] SERENA....... W 7-6 6-2
GS US OPEN........ QTR [04] CLIJSTERS.... L 4-6 7-5 6-1
T2 BEIJING........ w/o

I would hardly consider her win against Clijsters in Antwerp an elite win, as Kim was just comming back from injury and Kim was ranked very low at that point.
That leaves Venus with only 7 top ten wins for the whole year... Not that good, but way better than 2004, i think she'll get more in 2006.

jfk
Dec 3rd, 2005, 05:40 PM
Venus' year can be summed up by two performances that I personally believe were the best and worst a top player has performed this year. Her match against Sesil was the worst match I've season her play and arguably the worst performance I've ever seen from anyone. It was that bad.

Contrast that with her win against Sharapova at Wimbledon. No one played better this year than Venus did in that match. Once again, that's arguably one of the greatest performances ever. Her ball striking was unbelievable.

iWill
Dec 3rd, 2005, 05:51 PM
I would hardly consider her win against Clijsters in Antwerp an elite win, as Kim was just comming back from injury and Kim was ranked very low at that point.
That leaves Venus with only 7 top ten wins for the whole year... Not that good, but way better than 2004, i think she'll get more in 2006.
She'll get plenty more in 06 IMO. Shes starting to get the confidence level she had 2000-2003 and when shes confident that comes with great play and with great play comes big wins and big wins comes GS 06 can be a big year for Venus she just has to want it more then everyone else.

VeeReeDavJCap81
Dec 3rd, 2005, 05:53 PM
Venus' year can be summed up by two performances that I personally believe were the best and worst a top player has performed this year. Her match against Sesil was the worst match I've season her play and arguably the worst performance I've ever seen from anyone. It was that bad.



That's a stretch considering it was a 3 setter, and people have lost matches with worse scores than that.

Geisha
Dec 3rd, 2005, 05:53 PM
I would hardly consider her win against Clijsters in Antwerp an elite win, as Kim was just comming back from injury and Kim was ranked very low at that point.
That leaves Venus with only 7 top ten wins for the whole year... Not that good, but way better than 2004, i think she'll get more in 2006.

A week or two later, Clijsters was beating everybody under the sun. I doubt she improved that much. Plus, Kim had just beaten Petrova.

Geisha
Dec 3rd, 2005, 05:55 PM
Venus' year can be summed up by two performances that I personally believe were the best and worst a top player has performed this year. Her match against Sesil was the worst match I've season her play and arguably the worst performance I've ever seen from anyone. It was that bad.

Contrast that with her win against Sharapova at Wimbledon. No one played better this year than Venus did in that match. Once again, that's arguably one of the greatest performances ever. Her ball striking was unbelievable.

I think Venus played a whole bunch of crappy matches this year.

I mean, she played a wretched match against Golovin in Charleston, Karatancheva in France. Her match with Kim at the US Open was incredible for the first half, but the last half was exactly how she played against Sesil.

Her great matches this year would have to include Serena in Miami, Maria at Wimbledon, and maybe Mary at Wimbledon, as well. Those were matches where she played fearlessly and well from start to finish.

Geisha
Dec 3rd, 2005, 05:57 PM
That's a stretch considering it was a 3 setter, and people have lost matches with worse scores than that.

I think it was pretty close to being one of the worst matches of the year by anyone. I mean, Sesil played terrible, as well - that's how bad it was. I don't think Venus hit 15 winners.

Maria, when she lost 6-0, 6-0 to Lindsay, could have beaten Venus then.

VeeReeDavJCap81
Dec 3rd, 2005, 06:04 PM
I would hardly consider her win against Clijsters in Antwerp an elite win, as Kim was just comming back from injury and Kim was ranked very low at that point.


I downloaded that match, and Kim wasn't playing bad at all. Venus was just playing very well, Kim has a difficult time with Venus is she's playing well.

VeeReeDavJCap81
Dec 3rd, 2005, 06:05 PM
I think it was pretty close to being one of the worst matches of the year by anyone. I mean, Sesil played terrible, as well - that's how bad it was. I don't think Venus hit 15 winners.


I never said it wasn't the worst match of the year, look at the bolded part where he says he thinks that is the worst match played by anyone EVER, which is NOT true.

jfk
Dec 3rd, 2005, 06:09 PM
That's a stretch considering it was a 3 setter, and people have lost matches with worse scores than that.
Why should the score preclude that match from being among the worst ever. Sesil played horrendous tennis in all three sets, especially the second. That's why Venus won it. Venus didn't do much in that set except wait for Sesil to error.

There are two players in every match. A blowout score doesn't mean the losing player played poorly either.

VeeReeDavJCap81
Dec 3rd, 2005, 06:11 PM
Why should the score preclude that match from being among the worst ever. Sesil played horrendous tennis in all three sets, especially the second. That's why Venus won it. Venus didn't do much in that set except wait for Sesil to error.

There are two players in every match. A blowout score doesn't mean the losing player played poorly either.

True, but I question the amount of tennis matches you've actually seen if you think that is the worst performance EVER by a player.

jfk
Dec 3rd, 2005, 06:21 PM
True, but I question the amount of tennis matches you've actually seen if you think that is the worst performance EVER by a player.
I've been watching tennis since the late 80's. I would think my other posts on this board would indicate that I've watched a lot of tennis.

I said that it was "arguably" the worst performance ever by a "top" player. Especially when you consider how the player can perform at their peak and the caliber of the opponent Venus faced. I honestly can't think of too many matches worse under those circumstances. Venus sprayed the ball almost every point for two sets.

This isn't a Venus bashing post either....I already said her match against Sharapova was the best performance all year.

VeeReeDavJCap81
Dec 3rd, 2005, 06:26 PM
I said that it was "arguably" the worst performance ever by a "top" player.


I'm not trying to turn this into an argument thread, but that is NOT what you said.

THIS is what you said: "Her match against Sesil was the worst match I've season her play and arguably the worst performance I've ever seen from anyone. It was that bad"

Dana Marcy
Dec 3rd, 2005, 06:39 PM
I would hardly consider her win against Clijsters in Antwerp an elite win, as Kim was just comming back from injury and Kim was ranked very low at that point.

Venus is my favorite and Kim is my second favorite. That said, I do agree with you about the Antwerp. Kim wasn't even match tough so Venus should've won anyway.

jfk
Dec 3rd, 2005, 06:46 PM
I'm not trying to turn this into an argument thread, but that is NOT what you said.

THIS is what you said: "Her match against Sesil was the worst match I've season her play and arguably the worst performance I've ever seen from anyone. It was that bad"
In the sentence before that line, I said worst performance by a top player this year. I thought that logic would dictate that being carried over to the next sentence, but I can understand the confusion.

No Name Face
Dec 3rd, 2005, 06:47 PM
True, but I question the amount of tennis matches you've actually seen if you think that is the worst performance EVER by a player.

it was really bad though. really bad.

VeeReeDavJCap81
Dec 3rd, 2005, 06:51 PM
it was really bad though. really bad.

Yeah it was awful, you could tell her mind was somewhere else and she didn't want to be there. It was so sad seeing her walk off the court, but boy did she make up for that 3 weeks later :worship:

No Name Face
Dec 3rd, 2005, 06:53 PM
Yeah it was awful, you could tell her mind was somewhere else and she didn't want to be there. It was so sad seeing her walk off the court, but boy did she make up for that 3 weeks later :worship:

yeah, i think it was because rena wasn't there...

VeeReeDavJCap81
Dec 3rd, 2005, 06:55 PM
yeah, i think it was because rena wasn't there...

Naw, it's because there was drama regarding the trial of her sisters murderer during that time.

venus_rulez
Dec 3rd, 2005, 07:05 PM
I didn't see the Venus/Sesil match, but I did see the stats after. Venus made 9 winners in 3 sets against 51 errors! Even on clay Venus should be hitting a lot more than 9 winners in 3 sets. Venus isn't someone who needs to be close in winner/unforced error ratio to when a match even fairly easily, but that has to be abysmal. I personally think she had a good year. She won a slam and had a better tournament than anyone else this year. Especially when you consider that when most people say player x had a better year than Venus the word "consistent" is in the sentence.

spencercarlos
Dec 3rd, 2005, 07:15 PM
Venus is my favorite and Kim is my second favorite. That said, I do agree with you about the Antwerp. Kim wasn't even match tough so Venus should've won anyway.
I even remmembered Kim being so impressed by her performance in Antwerp as she expected a first round loss, she just wanted match play.
To say Kim was a top player at the time its simply no sense.

spencercarlos
Dec 3rd, 2005, 07:16 PM
A week or two later, Clijsters was beating everybody under the sun. I doubt she improved that much. Plus, Kim had just beaten Petrova.
Kim did improve indeed..
Venus did it from Roland Garros to Wimbledon...
Kim did the same.

spencercarlos
Dec 3rd, 2005, 07:18 PM
I downloaded that match, and Kim wasn't playing bad at all. Venus was just playing very well, Kim has a difficult time with Venus is she's playing well.
She was playing really well at the Usopen QF vs KIm too but lost, because Kim was better in the end.

spencercarlos
Dec 3rd, 2005, 07:22 PM
I didn't see the Venus/Sesil match, but I did see the stats after. Venus made 9 winners in 3 sets against 51 errors! Even on clay Venus should be hitting a lot more than 9 winners in 3 sets. Venus isn't someone who needs to be close in winner/unforced error ratio to when a match even fairly easily, but that has to be abysmal. I personally think she had a good year. She won a slam and had a better tournament than anyone else this year. Especially when you consider that when most people say player x had a better year than Venus the word "consistent" is in the sentence.
It was a really bad match, im not sure if it was the worst performance of a top player this year (probably not) but the match was a give away from Venus. Hard to believe after that match that she could win Wimbledon the way she did. She definetly turned things around.

Bitter Blue Bong
Dec 3rd, 2005, 07:30 PM
Venus' year can be summed up by two performances that I personally believe were the best and worst a top player has performed this year. Her match against Sesil was the worst match I've season her play and arguably the worst performance I've ever seen from anyone. It was that bad.

Contrast that with her win against Sharapova at Wimbledon. No one played better this year than Venus did in that match. Once again, that's arguably one of the greatest performances ever. Her ball striking was unbelievable.

I can't say I disagree too much with this. Those were two of the absolute(!) worst and best matches I've ever seen Venus play.

Brooks.
Dec 3rd, 2005, 09:45 PM
I think Venus played a whole bunch of crappy matches this year.

I mean, she played a wretched match against Golovin in Charleston, Karatancheva in France. Her match with Kim at the US Open was incredible for the first half, but the last half was exactly how she played against Sesil.

Her great matches this year would have to include Serena in Miami, Maria at Wimbledon, and maybe Mary at Wimbledon, as well. Those were matches where she played fearlessly and well from start to finish.

venus with no confidence on clay can be :unsure: :tape: .....but I think the old Venus is back for good...so next year will be better....afterall the only losses she had after wimbledon were to clijsters, who was playing the best tennis of her life...and venus still should have won that us open match

Havok
Dec 3rd, 2005, 10:47 PM
This year has been better than her crap 2004 year, but it still wasn't so amazing. She had a solid 2 weeks at Wimbledon and has done nothing else outside of that event except for reaching the finals at Antwerp and a cheap clay win just before RG. I hope she picks it up next year and stops getting injured!

fammmmedspin
Dec 3rd, 2005, 10:54 PM
The stats are less convincing if you take out the winningmatches where the other player was in a slump or coming back from injury. That gives you a truer picture - its a year with several short very high peaks and a lot of deep troughs.

new-york
Dec 3rd, 2005, 11:33 PM
Along With All those Comebacks we're talkin about. there's one i hope the most.

the return of the great, the champion Venus Williams. i really hope she'll remember Wimbly and will do what it takes.

Volcana
Dec 4th, 2005, 12:46 AM
This year has been better than her crap 2004 year, but it still wasn't so amazing. She had a solid 2 weeks at Wimbledon and has done nothing else outside of that event except for reaching the finals at Antwerp and a cheap clay win just before RG.The semis at Miami, the final at Stanford .... And she actually had the best slam record of all the slam winners.

dinhd82
Dec 4th, 2005, 12:50 AM
I had almost forgotten that match with Molik!

Rexman
Dec 4th, 2005, 12:51 AM
I think what's interesting is that if you look at before Wimbledon, she struggled against the power players like Sharapova, Molik and Lindsay, but defeated the craftier players like Myskina and Clijsters, From Wimbledon on, she's beaten Sharapova, Pierce, Davenport and Serena and has losses to Myskina and Clijsters (And Schnyder had 5 match points on her at Stanford).

It's a pretty drastic turn around.

Paneru
Dec 4th, 2005, 01:21 AM
This year has been better than her crap 2004 year, but it still wasn't so amazing. She had a solid 2 weeks at Wimbledon and has done nothing else outside of that event except for reaching the finals at Antwerp and a cheap clay win just before RG. I hope she picks it up next year and stops getting injured!


Well, I find it interesting all the nitpicking now when prior to Wimbledon
you all but had the death certificate for her career as a
top elite player signed sealed and delivered! ;)

That includes some fans as well! :cool:


Some have lost the sight of Venus' journey after
04' because they only looked at the titles.

Venus re-dedicated herself to her tennis and fitness during the winter
of 04'. Her progress was slow and hit some bumps along the way
but you saw the fruits of her hardwork and it was just a matter
of time in it all gelling.

Both Zina Garrison and Chris Evert atested to that
fact in watching her during Fed Cup and talking to her.


IMO, this was a transition year for Venus back into the
more confident player that made her famous and brought
her all those Slams and other titles.


She's always gonna have health issues but hopefully this
upcoming year will be better for that as 05' was better
than 04' in that department.

If that goes well then so goes well to her chnces
of winning much more next season.


So as far as I'm concerned this year has
been a great year because we got Venus back! :hug:

jfk
Dec 4th, 2005, 01:41 AM
The semis at Miami, the final at Stanford .... And she actually had the best slam record of all the slam winners.
Venus went 9-3 in her other slams, while Kim went 6-2. Equal percentage.

Volcana
Dec 4th, 2005, 03:06 AM
Venus went 9-3 in her other slams, while Kim went 6-2. Equal percentage.Venus' 2nd best result was the QF. Clijsters 2nd best result 4th round.

jfk
Dec 4th, 2005, 03:11 AM
And Venus's worst result was 3rd round. Clijsters' worst was 4th round. What's your point?

Knizzle
Dec 4th, 2005, 05:54 AM
She was playing really well at the Usopen QF vs KIm too but lost, because Kim was better in the end.

Carlos this is a load of crap, Kim was better in the end true, but Venus wasn't playing really well cause if she was, Kim would have been toast in 2 sets. As far as Antwerp everyone here can see Kim was playing well there, but Venus just munched her. You can't discount that as an "elite" win.