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View Full Version : Ryan Sweeting def. Maria Sharapova 7-5 6-3


croat123
Dec 2nd, 2005, 11:29 PM
ok, so it was a practice match, but one of the top players got beaten in straight sets by a boy's junior.

:o

source: www.***************** (http://www.*****************)

Anna F'd Enrique
Dec 2nd, 2005, 11:31 PM
ewww

Blonde_Ambition7
Dec 2nd, 2005, 11:33 PM
true or not that's isn't really surprsing

~CANUCK~
Dec 2nd, 2005, 11:34 PM
true or not that's isn't really surprsing
No if it is true, taking 8 games is pretty decent considering.

fOxYLiCiOuS
Dec 2nd, 2005, 11:34 PM
:yawn:

Blonde_Ambition7
Dec 2nd, 2005, 11:35 PM
No if it is true, taking 8 games is pretty decent considering.

that's what i'm saying.

vogus
Dec 2nd, 2005, 11:37 PM
ok, so it was a practice match, but one of the top players got beaten in straight sets by a boy's junior.

:o

source: www.***************** (http://www.*****************)



isn't that the guy who won the USO junior title? If so, he's not just any old "boy's junior" and that scoreline is a lot closer than i would have expected. You have to figure that the winner of an 18-and-under boys' Grand Slam title would be ranked somewhere from 200-500 on the ATP computer.

SilK
Dec 2nd, 2005, 11:37 PM
In 2004 Jesse Huta Galung def. Svetlana Kuznetsova :shrug:

So what?

Sir Stefwhit
Dec 3rd, 2005, 12:06 AM
Ryan is the number 4 player on the ITF Junior rankings so he can definitely hold his own. I actually think it's an even matchup and a matchup that Sharapova has the ability to win, she just lost this time around. Some of you make it seem as if there is no way Sharapova could have even taken a set off him, I think you're under estimating the women if you think that a professional woman tennis player doesn't stand a chance against a top junior on the boys circuit.

switz
Dec 3rd, 2005, 12:08 AM
er that's a good scoreline for Maria.

Hachiko
Dec 3rd, 2005, 12:10 AM
How embarrassing for the women's game.

jamatthews
Dec 3rd, 2005, 12:12 AM
How embarrassing for the women's game.

Indeed, an 18 year old female lost to an 18 year old male... :tape:

selking
Dec 3rd, 2005, 12:15 AM
Indeed, an 18 year old female lost to an 18 year old male... :tape:

no, an 18 year old junior beat the number 4 ranked player in the world on the womans side. Its quite sad and pathetic

Hachiko
Dec 3rd, 2005, 12:16 AM
Indeed, an 18 year old female lost to an 18 year old male... :tape:

Be that as it may, one of the best female tennis players in the world couldn't beat a ATP junior.

morningglory
Dec 3rd, 2005, 12:17 AM
what's this source?
I can't open it....

SilK
Dec 3rd, 2005, 12:23 AM
no, an 18 year old junior beat the number 4 ranked player in the world on the womans side. Its quite sad and pathetic

I think you're completely wrong saying that it's sad and pathetic.

Just like in almost every sport, the mens and the womens game is a different discipline. You do not see women athletes running faster or jumping higher/futher than male athletes. You don't see women swimmers having faster times than the men. You do not see women speedskaters outskating their male competition.

Why expect a female tennis player to beat a male tennis player. Junior or not. There can be no point taken in that.

Corswandt
Dec 3rd, 2005, 12:24 AM
Some of you make it seem as if there is no way Sharapova could have even taken a set off him, I think you're under estimating the women if you think that a professional woman tennis player doesn't stand a chance against a top junior on the boys circuit.

One of my hometown's football clubs has a women's team that has won several national championships, and includes several Portuguese national team players. When they played against the under 16 boys' team (which, by contrast, played on the low tier regional league) in practice, they usually were down 7 or 8-0 after fifteen minutes.

K-Dog
Dec 3rd, 2005, 12:29 AM
If any of you guys who say it's pathetic that Maria lost, it totally was expected. I didn't even think that she would get 8 games off him. You guys really don't know the difference between the men's and women's competitive games if you think that any female can compete with a top boy in the world. Go outside or to a club and learn how to play tennis well and then come back here. Venus or Serena probably would've lost too!! Heck I'm nothing special, but I'd like to see a girl in the entire state of Wisconsin, where I live, beat me in a match. It probably wouldn't happen because men are just physically stronger, play the game with a lot more spin, and serve SO much harder than most females do. I haven't been recorded with my speed, but I'm guess that my serve prob comes in at 105 mph on an average first serve and 85-90 mph on a second serve. That isn't even a big serve for a guy, but it is a ton bigger than most girls can hit it my age. Same here. I've seen Ryan play at the US Open (TTC) and the boy can hit harder than Maria and with more spin than her, is faster than her, and can serve harder than her. Maria's serve must've come in like a normal opponent on the junior circuit would've, if not lower than one. The men's and women's games are just different people, PLAIN AND CLEAR!!

Hachiko
Dec 3rd, 2005, 12:33 AM
If any of you guys who say it's pathetic that Maria lost, it totally was expected. I didn't even think that she would get 8 games off him. You guys really don't know the difference between the men's and women's competitive games if you think that any female can compete with a top boy in the world. Go outside or to a club and learn how to play tennis well and then come back here. Venus or Serena probably would've lost too!! Heck I'm nothing special, but I'd like to see a girl in the entire state of Wisconsin, where I live, beat me in a match. It probably wouldn't happen because men are just physically stronger, play the game with a lot more spin, and serve SO much harder than most females do. I haven't been recorded with my speed, but I'm guess that my serve prob comes in at 105 mph on an average first serve and 85-90 mph on a second serve. That isn't even a big serve for a guy, but it is a ton bigger than most girls can hit it my age. Same here. I've seen Ryan play at the US Open (TTC) and the boy can hit harder than Maria and with more spin than her, is faster than her, and can serve harder than her. Maria's serve must've come in like a normal opponent on the junior circuit would've, if not lower than one. The men's and women's games are just different people, PLAIN AND CLEAR!!

I don't mean to be rude but I think it's quite obvious to each one of us that there is a difference to a rather large extent, between the best female tennis player in the world and the best male tennis player in the world. Here, we're referring to Maria Sharapova and Ryan Sweeting, not Maria Sharapova and Roger Federer.

SilK
Dec 3rd, 2005, 12:36 AM
I don't mean to be rude but I think it's quite obvious to each one of us that there is a difference to a rather large extent, between the best female tennis player in the world and the best male tennis player in the world. Here, we're referring to Maria Sharapova and Ryan Sweeting, not Maria Sharapova and Roger Federer.

Yeah, but in the end... Being a male, being the same age as Maria, already gives him an adventage OVER Maria.

She might be just as if not more talented than Ryan.

K-Dog
Dec 3rd, 2005, 12:40 AM
I don't mean to be rude but I think it's quite obvious to each one of us that there is a difference to a rather large extent, between the best female tennis player in the world and the best male tennis player in the world. Here, we're referring to Maria Sharapova and Ryan Sweeting, not Maria Sharapova and Roger Federer.

That doesn't matter. Most of the top juniors could play on the WTA tour and dominate. It is still a different game. Ryan Sweeting is better than almost all the women on the WTA tour at the moment. It doesn't matter if it is Roger or Ryan, there is a stark difference at that level no matter what. Believe me, because I've have coaches tell me this that the top juniors in the boys should beat the top female pros. At 18, most guys can serve in the 110+ range easily and can hit at a rally speed at or above the pro women. The difference is the strength of the boys and being able to handle the pace easier and hit it back as hard or harder with more topspin. I'm 18 and I practice or take drill groups with guys that could take out a top female. For us men, the women's game still hasn't caught up yet. If this was Roger Federer, the score would be 6-0 6-1 (just because rog is so nice!!). The men's and women's games are totally different with the men just being the better players when it come down to it. I'm sure that there is some 16 yr old boy who can beat Maria too if he's matured enough. Even at the junior level, the boys are still better than the top women's pros if the junior is any good.

SilK
Dec 3rd, 2005, 12:43 AM
I don't think Maria expected to win this anyway...

Most of the top women hit with the junior boys when they are at the academies.
And most of the top women lose those practise matches.

K-Dog
Dec 3rd, 2005, 12:45 AM
I don't think Maria expected to win this anyway...

Most of the top women hit with the junior boys when they are at the academies.
And most of the top women lose those practise matches.

Yeah, even myself as a guy don't care too much about practice matches. I try to win them and do most of the time, but they're a pain in the butt to me and are meaningless. I play my best during match play.

SilK
Dec 3rd, 2005, 12:50 AM
Yeah, even myself as a guy don't care too much about practice matches. I try to win them and do most of the time, but they're a pain in the butt to me and are meaningless. I play my best during match play.

Our club's youth tennistrainer often calls me to use me for practise matches against both boys and girls. Now these girls compete for regional and national championships under 16, and I very rarely lose a set to them. I never lose a match to them though. Now against the boys it's a completely different story.

K-Dog
Dec 3rd, 2005, 12:54 AM
Our club's youth tennistrainer often calls me to use me for practise matches against both boys and girls. Now these girls compete for regional and national championships under 16, and I very rarely lose a set to them. I never lose a match to them though. Now against the boys it's a completely different story.

Yeah, i was pretty embarrassed on Monday when I was playing this girl and she got up 2-1 on me and I only won one point on her serve in that span. I couldn't believe what was happening and then I won the next 5 games. That was a relief!!

controlfreak
Dec 3rd, 2005, 12:54 AM
One of my hometown's football clubs has a women's team that has won several national championships, and includes several Portuguese national team players. When they played against the under 16 boys' team (which, by contrast, played on the low tier regional league) in practice, they usually were down 7 or 8-0 after fifteen minutes.

Yes but have you seen women try to play football? :haha:

Even when the top teams play each other in the world cup, the standard of play is a joke. I've seen more natural footballing talent in the playground of a kindergarten for retarded kids.

KimC&MariaSNo1's
Dec 3rd, 2005, 12:55 AM
yeah its no surprise she lost but it was still a pretty close first set.

vogus
Dec 3rd, 2005, 12:55 AM
If any of you guys who say it's pathetic that Maria lost, it totally was expected. I didn't even think that she would get 8 games off him. You guys really don't know the difference between the men's and women's competitive games if you think that any female can compete with a top boy in the world. Go outside or to a club and learn how to play tennis well and then come back here. Venus or Serena probably would've lost too!! Heck I'm nothing special, but I'd like to see a girl in the entire state of Wisconsin, where I live, beat me in a match. It probably wouldn't happen because men are just physically stronger, play the game with a lot more spin, and serve SO much harder than most females do. I haven't been recorded with my speed, but I'm guess that my serve prob comes in at 105 mph on an average first serve and 85-90 mph on a second serve. That isn't even a big serve for a guy, but it is a ton bigger than most girls can hit it my age. Same here. I've seen Ryan play at the US Open (TTC) and the boy can hit harder than Maria and with more spin than her, is faster than her, and can serve harder than her. Maria's serve must've come in like a normal opponent on the junior circuit would've, if not lower than one. The men's and women's games are just different people, PLAIN AND CLEAR!!


I know what you are trying to say but there are MAJOR flaws in this post.

If you don't think that losing a match 7-5 6-3 is competing, then YOU are the one who doesn't know much about tennis. When you lose 7-5 6-3 do you walk off the court feeling like YOU weren't competetive? I doubt it. So why don't you explain to us the difference between Sharapova losing 7-5 6-3 to Ryan Sweeting (a male) and losing 7-5 6-3 to Justine Henin (a female who i believe has also beaten her by that same score). Hello? That's right, there isn't a difference.

On the second point, i'm pretty sure the starters on the University of Wisconsin women's tennis team would be able to take you out. If not, Samantha Reeves is from Wisconsin and i'd love to see you play a set against her for 500 dollars. I'm assuming here that you are decent a high-school level player but not nationally ranked by the USTA.

dinhd82
Dec 3rd, 2005, 12:56 AM
thats a pathetic score-line for the boy actually, almost losing the first set to a girl. They are the same age, if this were high-school, that boy would have been made fun of nonstop in the locker-room. It don't matter that maria is a top player on the WTA tour, non of the top women players could beat anybody on the ATP tour period.

SilK
Dec 3rd, 2005, 12:56 AM
yeah its no surprise she lost but it was still a pretty close first set.

yeah, and we need to look at THAT as something positive.
rather than looking at her losing this match as something negative..

K-Dog
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:01 AM
I know what you are trying to say but there are MAJOR flaws in this post.

If you don't think that losing a match 7-5 6-3 is competing, then YOU are the one who doesn't know much about tennis. When you lose 7-5 6-3 do you walk off the court feeling like YOU weren't competetive? I doubt it. So why don't you explain to us the difference between Sharapova losing 7-5 6-3 to Ryan Sweeting (a male) and losing 7-5 6-3 to Justine Henin (a female who i believe has also beaten her by that same score). Hello? That's right, there isn't a difference.

On the second point, i'm pretty sure the starters on the University of Wisconsin women's tennis team would be able to take you out. If not, Samantha Reeves is from Wisconsin and i'd love to see you play a set against her for 500 dollars. I'm assuming here that you are decent a high-school level player but not nationally ranked by the USTA.

I guess i mean that yes they can compete, but not actually beat them. Actually this was a nervey score line by Ryan, because he should've won it easier. I was being PC, but you got my drift.

Yes I'm a decent high-school player and nothing to brag about, but I don't play tournaments to get a ranking. I really just practice, drill twice a week, and then play practice matches. I really haven't cared too much about my future with tennis. Believe you me, the girls on Madison's team aren't anything to brag about. I think that I could beat at least the lower singles players.

K-Dog
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:04 AM
thats a pathetic score-line for the boy actually, almost losing the first set to a girl. They are the same age, if this were high-school, that boy would have been made fun of nonstop in the locker-room. It don't matter that maria is a top player on the WTA tour, non of the top women players could beat anybody on the ATP tour period.

I KNOW!! The guys during drill group were giving it to me because I was down 2-1 to a girl, even though I won the practice set 6-2. I've challenged my school's no.1, but she never found time to play me. She seems to have this grandiose idea that because she's played longer, that she can beat me. Her coach even told me that i would win w/o losing 2 or 3 games at max to her.

vogus
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:13 AM
I guess i mean that yes they can compete, but not actually beat them. Actually this was a nervey score line by Ryan, because he should've won it easier. I was being PC, but you got my drift.

Yes I'm a decent high-school player and nothing to brag about, but I don't play tournaments to get a ranking. I really just practice, drill twice a week, and then play practice matches. I really haven't cared too much about my future with tennis. Believe you me, the girls on Madison's team aren't anything to brag about. I think that I could beat at least the lower singles players.


Very nervey. Anytime the score is 5-5 in a set, you've got to figure the set is up for grabs.

Ok, so you could beat the lower singles players at U of W, quite likely. But that's not what you said before, you said there are no girls in Wisconsin that could ever beat you. I mean, you should give some credit where it's due. There are at least a few girls in Wisconsin who are national level players and would be able beat many, if not most, high school male players. I don't know your level exactly but i am just going on what you have told me.

bellascarlett
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:14 AM
ok im confused, is this really true?

SilK
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:14 AM
ok im confused, is this really true?

why are you confused? :confused:

Scotso
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:15 AM
yes, it's really true.

Joana
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:16 AM
How embarrassing for the women's game.

Get a brain.

Hachiko
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:17 AM
Get a brain.

Grow a dick.

Scotso
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:19 AM
Look, Maria shouldn't have won 8 games, it shows that Ryan was off his game. He's not just "a junior." He's the #4 ranked junior, and he won the US Open juniors. He's a talented player.

Any good (and by this I mean top 500 pro, top junior, etc.) male player at 18 should beat any woman. I'm sorry, but that's just the fact. Women and men are different, not unequal, just different.

Joana
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:19 AM
Grow a dick.

I don't need one. You, however, are in desperate need of a brain.

bellascarlett
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:19 AM
why are you confused? :confused:

where's the link?

vogus
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:20 AM
I KNOW!! The guys during drill group were giving it to me because I was down 2-1 to a girl, even though I won the practice set 6-2. I've challenged my school's no.1, but she never found time to play me. She seems to have this grandiose idea that because she's played longer, that she can beat me. Her coach even told me that i would win w/o losing 2 or 3 games at max to her.


The guys in your drill group ought to shut their traps, because on a bad day, it could be any one of them getting their ass handed to them by some girl in a set.

SilK
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:20 AM
where's the link?

I don't know. But there is NO reason to doubt the credibility of the news so far...

SilK
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:21 AM
The guys in your drill group ought to shut their traps, because on a bad day, it could be any one of them getting their ass handed to them by some girl in a set.

That is absolutely true...

Though I've never lost to a girl, I have lost sets to girls in the past.

And I undoubtly would lose matches to the national TOP girls out here.

K-Dog
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:24 AM
Very nervey. Anytime the score is 5-5 in a set, you've got to figure the set is up for grabs.

Ok, so you could beat the lower singles players at U of W, quite likely. But that's not what you said before, you said there are no girls in Wisconsin that could ever beat you. I mean, you should give some credit where it's due. There are at least a few girls in Wisconsin who are national level players and would be able beat many, if not most, high school male players. I don't know your level exactly but i am just going on what you have told me.

Oops, I meant in high school, there was no girls that could beat me. I wasn't thinking about college players when I said that. I'm still in high school, so I don't think beyond that I guess. I'm okay I guess. I mean my coach told me on a good day I'm a 4.5 player and that our no.1 is like a 5.0 on a good day (we have a very good team mind you). I'm nothing special, but I didn't start playing tennis until sophomore year after I taught myself from stratch the two years prior.

Scotso
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:25 AM
Marin Cilic (1) and Ryan Sweeting (2) both cruised through their two rounds today despite the cold biting wind. Ryan has been training here at the IMG Bollettieri Academy for the past month since he won the Chanda Rubin Tulsa and is currently on a 14 match winning streak since the US Open.

"It's a great place to train; a lot of good players, a lot of competition and it's brought my game up a lot," said Ryan, about the academy. "I hit with Mary Pierce for a week, when she was here, and I played a match with Maria Sharapova. We played for $25 but it was a serious match and I won 7-5; 6-3."



http://www. junior tennis .com/Tournaments/International/2005/November/EddieHerr/Wednesday.php

bellascarlett
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:25 AM
I don't know. But there is NO reason to doubt the credibility of the news so far...
ok...well if someone ever has a link...

K-Dog
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:27 AM
The guys in your drill group ought to shut their traps, because on a bad day, it could be any one of them getting their ass handed to them by some girl in a set.

the funny thing is that I'm better than the guys that talk shit and I was just done beating one of the guys when he started talking. in the doubles match he and i played, I had to basically do everything to keep us ahead in the 10 mins we played these private school kids. I'm a singles player, and i was telling him, the dubs player, that we should use an "I" formation and it worked. some kids need to stop talking before they sound stupid!!

SilK
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:27 AM
ok...well if someone ever has a link...

I'd say, look ONE post up, there you have it! ;)

Joana
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:28 AM
We get the point, you are a very good tennis player.

I feel mean tonight.

K-Dog
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:29 AM
We get the point, you are a very good tennis player.

I feel mean tonight.

Who is a good tennis player, SiLk? Because i'm far from being at good. i'm good for my level, but nothing more. I guess that i got in a tangent here, WOOPS!!

SilK
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:29 AM
We get the point, you are a very good tennis player.

I feel mean tonight.

Should we be :scared: of you tonight and :bolt: in every thread we see you? :awww:

SilK
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:30 AM
Who is a good tennis player, SiLk?

Joana = not SilK ;) :p

vogus
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:30 AM
Oops, I meant in high school, there was no girls that could beat me. I wasn't thinking about college players when I said that. I'm still in high school, so I don't think beyond that I guess. I'm okay I guess. I mean my coach told me on a good day I'm a 4.5 player and that our no.1 is like a 5.0 on a good day (we have a very good team mind you). I'm nothing special, but I didn't start playing tennis until sophomore year after I taught myself from stratch the two years prior.


At 4.0 or 4.5 level you could benefit a lot by practicing against D-I level college girls, because you probably hit hard but need to improve your consistency. If you work hard on your game you can probably get to 5.0 level in another year.

!!!--Duiz™--!!!
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:30 AM
:rolleyes:

Junex
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:32 AM
We get the point, you are a very good tennis player.

I feel mean tonight.



GO Joana! :devil:

Joana
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:32 AM
Should we be :scared: of you tonight and :bolt: in every thread we see you? :awww:

Nah, I'll just stay here and continue bitching in this thread. :D

Sir Stefwhit
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:33 AM
I hate the the idea that Maria is "expected" to lose and that she should be happy she took eight games off of him. Granted they are the same age, Maria has the advantage in experience and a score line that's 7-5,6-3 is really competitive. It's not hard to imagine them playing again and Maria winning.

none of the top women players could beat anybody on the ATP tour period.
If it were only that simple. I'm not foolish enough to believe the top women stand much of chance winning against any of the top 100 men, but to say that no woman can beat ANYBODY, well I don't believe that's true. Venus hits her serve harder than some men do and a FEW of the top women can match SOME of the men in velocity with their groundstrokes. If Maria could lose 7-5,6-3 and we assume that both players gave it their all on every point, then the logical conclusion based on that score line is that Maria has more than a "chance" of beating him. Let's not forget Lindsay beat Maria 6-0,6-0. So are we to assume that since Lindsay beat Maria more comfortably she could beat Ryan. Well of course not, I'm aware that it doesn't work like that, but that's the same kind of warped logic that says no women can beat any man (on the ATP tour). I'll even concede that the women in the top 5 would be hard pressed against men ranked in the 500's, but to say that they absolutely could not win...well I just can't go there.

K-Dog
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:33 AM
At 4.0 or 4.5 level you could benefit a lot by practicing against D-I level college girls, because you probably hit hard but need to improve your consistency. If you work hard on your game you can probably get to 5.0 level in another year.

Yep, that's my problem. I'm consistent and powerful off the bh, but that's my weapon. My serve is much better on first and second now, and volleys have improved. The forehand is good when I time it well and I'm relaxed on it, but I can be a little late on it too much of the time (I copied Lindsay a little bit on it, so I have a bigger backswing sometimes). The problem is that I'm a senior this year, so after this season, I done. In the next 4 months I'm going on a diet, training, and playing a ton to get as good as I can in the time remaining before season.

Corswandt
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:34 AM
Yes but have you seen women try to play football? :haha:

Even when the top teams play each other in the world cup, the standard of play is a joke. I've seen more natural footballing talent in the playground of a kindergarten for retarded kids.

I was a regular at the matches of the local club's women's team up until about four years ago. When they played weaker teams, it was kind of fun - we lost track of how many goals our team had scored, and left discussing if we had won 19-0 or 20-0. When the teams were more evenly matched, it was a slow, dull, intensely physical midfield slog, usually decided by a moonball shot from afar followed by a horrendous error by one of the goalkeepers (women's football goalkeepers, with a couple of exceptions, are just women who want to play football but are completely hopeless at it, so they get sent to the goal).

Even at the highest level, women's football is an odd, staggered affair. They sure can kick the ball, but being able to run fast enough to catch it is another matter. If the ball happens to slip two or three meters from them, they have no choice but to let it go. Long passing has a ridiculously low rate of success, and during far too much of the match the ball is just wandering aimlessly upfield and downfield, without any sustained gameplay. One has the feeling the standard football pitch is just too big for women.

And don't get me started on the women's football kits: I'm not asking them to tart themselves up or show more skin, but do they really have to play in oversize men's shirts?

Women's football still has a very, very long way to go. Tennis and volleyball are the sports where the women come closer to the men in terms of standard of play.

The only player I was impressed by was one Kelly that played for England in a match against Portugal back in 1996. She played better than everybody else on the pitch put together; lacked the bulk football requires, but she was so fast she simply dodged all tackles. I suppose she's the Kelly Smith that played in the US for some time.

So I admit that maybe football wasn't a very good example.

SilK
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:34 AM
Nah, I'll just stay here and continue bitching in this thread. :D

Oh. Ok. Fine with me... please continue ;)

Scotso
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:34 AM
:rolleyes:

What exactly are you rolling your eyes at?

Scotso
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:37 AM
It's not hard to imagine them playing again and Maria winning.

If Maria beat him, it would only be because:

a) he let her.
b) he was totally overwhelmed by the occasion.
c) he was dead.


I'll even concede that the women in the top 5 would be hard pressed against men ranked in the 500's, but to say that they absolutely could not win...well I just can't go there.

Of course, there are many players on the men's tour that are ranked merely because they managed to buy WCs or were just persistant 1st round losers... but those aren't real professionals.

I'm not a very good tennis player, but I'm pretty sure there are some men and women who are ranked or have been that I could beat.

bellascarlett
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:38 AM
http://juniortennis. com/Tournaments/International/2005/November/EddieHerr/Wednesday.php

thanks...guess no difference from what was initially posted...im such a loser...haha...

SilK
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:42 AM
oops...haha...sorry...
the link isnt working...here's the correct one...minor changes...

http://*****************/Tournaments/International/2005/November/EddieHerr/Wednesday.php

thanks...

you need to copy/paste the link and take out the space.

your link won't work this way either. ;)

Joana
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:43 AM
Women's football still has a very, very long way to go.


Yes. Women should play handball, not football.

Jeff
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:43 AM
I don't mean to be rude but I think it's quite obvious to each one of us that there is a difference to a rather large extent, between the best female tennis player in the world and the best male tennis player in the world. Here, we're referring to Maria Sharapova and Ryan Sweeting, not Maria Sharapova and Roger Federer.

I think what you are not understanding, is that there is a difference between the men's game in general compared to the women, not just between the top males and the top females. Maria Sharapova is #4 in the world, because her current level is the fourth best for women. Ryan Sweeting is not at the same rank as Maria, because although better than 99% of women, his game is not better than 99% of men. If you don't understand that then how about this...if you can wear a size 10 shoe in womens, try wearing a size ten in men. I'm sure you'll discover that the size 10 shoe for men is too big for your feet...why? Well because the size of men's feet are on average larger than women's, hence the difference in shoe sizes.

Crazy Canuck
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:44 AM
Ivanovic df Djokovic.

Conclusions:

Sweeting>Djokovic
Ivanovic>Sharapova

bellascarlett
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:45 AM
you need to copy/paste the link and take out the space.

your link won't work this way either. ;)

I know i figured...fuckin' links... :rolleyes: I'm bad at things like this...

njnetswill
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:46 AM
Good for Maria for taking a set to 5-7.

SilK
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:48 AM
Ivanovic df Djokovic.

this was an exhibition match and I believe, it was a whole lot less competitive than the match we're talking about here.

Ivanovic and Djokovic had a crowd to entertain and give their moneys worth.

Corswandt
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:49 AM
Yes. Women should play handball, not football.

Or take up knitting.

Scotso
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:51 AM
this was an exhibition match and I believe, it was a whole lot less competitive than the match we're talking about here.

and how exactly do you know this, considering that the only news we really had about the match is the result?

Joana
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:52 AM
Conclusions:
Ivanovic>Sharapova


Was there any doubt?

bellascarlett
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:53 AM
and how exactly do you know this, considering that the only news we really had about the match is the result?

I saw parts of the match...Ana & Djokovic were even playing the parts of ballboy and ballgirl at one point and letting kids take their places in the game...it was a joke...an exhibition...

Crazy Canuck
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:54 AM
this was an exhibition match and I believe, it was a whole lot less competitive than the match we're talking about here.

Ivanovic and Djokovic had a crowd to entertain and give their moneys worth.
Wait... wait... so I shouldn't necessarily take either score seriously?!?

SilK
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:54 AM
and how exactly do you know this, considering that the only news we really had about the match is the result?

hense the 'I believe'. it was an assumption...

Joana
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:54 AM
Or take up knitting.

Yes, that's always an option.

!!!--Duiz™--!!!
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:55 AM
it is sad that some people have such an irrational hate towards Sharapova...

SilK
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:55 AM
Wait... wait... so I shouldn't necessarily take either score seriously?!?

I'm not saying that. I'm not telling you that.
If you take it seriously (either one) is up to you.

Joana
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:56 AM
Wait... wait... so I shouldn't necessarily take either score seriously?!?

You dare suggest that Ana's win shouldn't be taken seriously? :eek:

!!!--Duiz™--!!!
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:58 AM
WTF does Ana has to do in this world with this..

this is so irrational..

bellascarlett
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:59 AM
Was there any doubt?

no doubt sharapova is better than ivanovic... :p

SilK
Dec 3rd, 2005, 02:00 AM
WTF does Ana has to do in this world with this..

this is so irrational..

Read back. Why is bringing Ana into this discussion irrational?

!!!--Duiz™--!!!
Dec 3rd, 2005, 02:10 AM
Read back. Why is bringing Ana into this discussion irrational?

First of all... as far as I heard... the Ana beateing her male compatriot thing was a fiasco.. Was entertaining and worth the price of the ticket.. but still a fiasco.

But what I think is so irrational is just need to stalk Maria and comparing her to others. It is like saying BJK is much better representative than Maria because she beated a male... When people don't comprehend the situation. The same with Ana beating the other dude, it is still other condition. Maria was being competitive as well as the other guy... The hate is just so irrational..

SJW
Dec 3rd, 2005, 02:13 AM
hmm i think Maria could have taken him (i think she's really good :shrug: ) but the fact that she didnt isnt anything to be ashamed of.

Joana
Dec 3rd, 2005, 02:14 AM
First of all... as far as I heard... the Ana beateing her male compatriot thing was a fiasco.. Was entertaining and worth the price of the ticket.. but still a fiasco.


Why exactly was it a fiasco?

SilK
Dec 3rd, 2005, 02:14 AM
First of all... as far as I heard... the Ana beateing her male compatriot thing was a fiasco.. Was entertaining and worth the price of the ticket.. but still a fiasco.

But what I think is so irrational is just need to stalk Maria and comparing her to others. It is like saying BJK is much better representative than Maria because she beated a male... When people don't comprehend the situation. The same with Ana beating the other dude, it is still other condition. Maria was being competitive as well as the other guy... The hate is just so irrational..

Well, I did say that the Ana match was more for entertainment, than it was meant to be a real competitive Men vs. Women match. So we agree on that.

As for bringing Ana into the discussion. I don't think that was done to compare Ana to Maria, and say Ana is better than Maria for beating a male player. I think it was brought into the discussion solely to 'prove' a female player can beat a male player. I'm not saying it's a good way of proving so... I'll leave that up to everybody their own opinion.

dinhd82
Dec 3rd, 2005, 02:16 AM
I hate the the idea that Maria is "expected" to lose and that she should be happy she took eight games off of him. Granted they are the same age, Maria has the advantage in experience and a score line that's 7-5,6-3 is really competitive. It's not hard to imagine them playing again and Maria winning.


If it were only that simple. I'm not foolish enough to believe the top women stand much of chance winning against any of the top 100 men, but to say that no woman can beat ANYBODY, well I don't believe that's true. Venus hits her serve harder than some men do and a FEW of the top women can match SOME of the men in velocity with their groundstrokes. If Maria could lose 7-5,6-3 and we assume that both players gave it their all on every point, then the logical conclusion based on that score line is that Maria has more than a "chance" of beating him. Let's not forget Lindsay beat Maria 6-0,6-0. So are we to assume that since Lindsay beat Maria more comfortably she could beat Ryan. Well of course not, I'm aware that it doesn't work like that, but that's the same kind of warped logic that says no women can beat any man (on the ATP tour). I'll even concede that the women in the top 5 would be hard pressed against men ranked in the 500's, but to say that they absolutely could not win...well I just can't go there.

I know it's hard to believe but it's just laws of physics. Not possible. The top women can probably give top juniors a challenge but not on the senior level. If it were easier like you seem to put it, I'm sure the Williams sisters would have joined the ATP tour a long time ago. Sorry.
;)

Hachiko
Dec 3rd, 2005, 02:21 AM
I think what you are not understanding, is that there is a difference between the men's game in general compared to the women, not just between the top males and the top females. Maria Sharapova is #4 in the world, because her current level is the fourth best for women. Ryan Sweeting is not at the same rank as Maria, because although better than 99% of women, his game is not better than 99% of men. If you don't understand that then how about this...if you can wear a size 10 shoe in womens, try wearing a size ten in men. I'm sure you'll discover that the size 10 shoe for men is too big for your feet...why? Well because the size of men's feet are on average larger than women's, hence the difference in shoe sizes.

I was answering in regard to a particular quote, and putting half the information you included into my answer, would have been irrelevant. I completely understand what you are saying, believe me. Perhaps the fact that I don't rave on about my own tennis career, like others seem to do here, might have lead you to misinterpret my differentiation between the two games.

!!!--Duiz™--!!!
Dec 3rd, 2005, 02:22 AM
Well, I did say that the Ana match was more for entertainment, than it was meant to be a real competitive Men vs. Women match. So we agree on that.

As for bringing Ana into the discussion. I don't think that was done to compare Ana to Maria, and say Ana is better than Maria for beating a male player. I think it was brought into the discussion solely to 'prove' a female player can beat a male player. I'm not saying it's a good way of proving so... I'll leave that up to everybody their own opinion.

I should play Venus Williams... to see if Ana and BJK are not the only wonders that can beaaat males...

That is just completely unnecessary to be brought up..

patricktav2003
Dec 3rd, 2005, 02:24 AM
that is better tehn what did the wialliams against mens!!!!

franny
Dec 3rd, 2005, 02:31 AM
Hmmm, so an 18 year old girl lost to a what, 16-17 year old boy? Doesn't sound that surprising to me. She may be one of the best on the women's tour, but she is still a woman. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is, women physically are just not comparable to men. There are junior players hitting 130-140 mph serves. Physically, women just don't match up.

!!!--Duiz™--!!!
Dec 3rd, 2005, 02:34 AM
I wonder who would win.... Roddick or Clijsters?

SilK
Dec 3rd, 2005, 02:35 AM
I should play Venus Williams... to see if Ana and BJK are not the only wonders that can beaaat males...

That is just completely unnecessary to be brought up..

I agree that it is not really news. I mean, if there was a post for every practise match lost by a WTA player to a male junior. We'd have a LOT of threads up in here... ;)

Just keep in mind that it is off season, and any news, is news! :hug:

!!!--Duiz™--!!!
Dec 3rd, 2005, 02:36 AM
I agree that it is not really news. I mean, if there was a post for every practise match lost by a WTA player to a male junior. We'd have a LOT of threads up in here... ;)

Just keep in mind that it is off season, and any news, is news! :hug:

:lol:

LH2HBH
Dec 3rd, 2005, 02:43 AM
This is no shame to Sharapova. Simply - the men's game and the women's game are just different. If he did play on the main ATP tour who knows what his rank would be.

!!!--Duiz™--!!!
Dec 3rd, 2005, 02:47 AM
This is no shame to Sharapova. Simply - the men's game and the women's game are just different. If he did play on the main ATP tour who knows what his rank would be.

ohh.. it is.. trust me... Sharapova is now definetly one slam wonder... At thiss levle she should be able to beat Roddick! :eek:

vogus
Dec 3rd, 2005, 02:47 AM
I know it's hard to believe but it's just laws of physics. Not possible. The top women can probably give top juniors a challenge but not on the senior level. If it were easier like you seem to put it, I'm sure the Williams sisters would have joined the ATP tour a long time ago. Sorry.
;)


Huh? Stef is much more on target than you are here and has presented a far better argument. There's nothing backing up what you say. Laws of physics? Give me a break. Stef didn't say it was easy or suggest that the Williams could or should join the ATP Tour. What he said was that there's no guarantee that ANY of the top women would ALWAYS be beaten by ANY man in the Top 500, which is true. In a well known result 3 years ago, Schnyder (then ranked 15th) defeated the 1080th ranked male player in the world, who was hitting first serves at 130 mph against her. Was it laws of physics that determined the outcome of that match? Of course not.

GoDominique
Dec 3rd, 2005, 02:54 AM
Huh? Stef is much more on target than you are here and has presented a far better argument. There's nothing backing up what you say. Laws of physics? Give me a break. Stef didn't say it was easy or suggest that the Williams could or should join the ATP Tour. What he said was that there's no guarantee that ANY of the top women would ALWAYS be beaten by ANY man in the Top 500, which is true. In a well known result 3 years ago, Schnyder (then ranked 15th) defeated the 1080th ranked male player in the world, who was hitting first serves at 130 mph against her. Was it laws of physics that determined the outcome of that match? Of course not.
You mean, in the same exhibition where Barbara Paulus beat Karsten Braasch? :lol:

You shouldn't take all these results at face value. IMO it's highly unlikely that this Ryan Sweeting guy is not able to hand Maria a thrashing if he really wants to.

Mr_Molik
Dec 3rd, 2005, 03:16 AM
ryan :o losing 8 games to a girl

Volcana
Dec 3rd, 2005, 04:21 AM
ok, so it was a practice match, but one of the top players got beaten in straight sets by a boy's junior.

:o

source: www.***************** (http://www.*****************)Doesn't count. Sharapova told him she'd sleep with him if he beat her. No teenaged boy is gonna lose in that situation.

bellascarlett
Dec 3rd, 2005, 05:40 AM
Doean't count. Sharapova told him she'd sleep with him if he beat her. No teenaged boy is gonna lose in that situation.

:lol: but shouldn't it be the other way around - that she's sleep with him if he let her beat him? But if it was a challenge from her, then maybe you are right...haha...but if that was the case and given what most have agreed to be the advantage in strength of men, why would she even pose the challenge to begin with if she knew she was gonna lose? Oh Maria! :o At least she's making the boy work a little hard before giving herself ;)

morningglory
Dec 3rd, 2005, 07:00 AM
ohh.. it is.. trust me... Sharapova is now definetly one slam wonder... At thiss levle she should be able to beat Roddick! :eek:
:lol: she could.... with the right revealing outfit to distract Andy's eyes... maybe a flesh tone two piece outfit... unless the rumors are true; Rod is gay!..... :o

ivanovic
Dec 3rd, 2005, 07:14 AM
shame on Sharapova - prancing around thinking she's top shit in tennis and then gets slammed by un unknown amature club player sad really, Ana Ivanovic would have pounded his ass into that court. A wimbledon champion does not lose to juniors regardless of sex.

ivanovic
Dec 3rd, 2005, 07:16 AM
I think Anna Lena Gronefeld could beat n e guy. :)
there's just something about the way she plays that's just awww

Sally Struthers
Dec 3rd, 2005, 07:19 AM
you guys who think the women have any chance against any male player have a warped sense of reality.

@m@nd@
Dec 3rd, 2005, 07:24 AM
maria lost, ppl say it's sad/embarassing/etc. if she won, ppl would probably say he wasnt playing at his best cuz maria's a girl. so, whatever.

Portobello
Dec 3rd, 2005, 07:34 AM
Was that surprised?? :shrug:

no gal can beat any male player!! live with it

SJW
Dec 3rd, 2005, 07:56 AM
Was that surprised?? :shrug:

no gal can beat any male player!! live with it

Ivanovic beat Djorkovic (sp)

dreamgoddess099
Dec 3rd, 2005, 08:03 AM
Hmmm, so an 18 year old girl lost to a what, 16-17 year old boy? Doesn't sound that surprising to me. She may be one of the best on the women's tour, but she is still a woman. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is, women physically are just not comparable to men. There are junior players hitting 130-140 mph serves. Physically, women just don't match up. There is a huge difference in not doing something and not being able to do it. That's like saying the men rule the world because they are physically superior to women so a women could never do it, when the truth is it is the will of man to have power and woman most often humor them and let them pretend to have it. Really, no human on earth has any power as we are all at the mercy of nature (but it seems to ease the male ego to think he controls something :lol: ). As far as strength goes, woman have just as much power as men if not more because true strength is in the mind. All any woman has to do is seriously put her mind to accomplishing anything and she can make it happen. But seeing is believing, so until people have been made to eat crow for thinking they've got this whole superior sex thing down, we will continue to have many more years of generalizations of what women can't do.

KimC&MariaSNo1's
Dec 3rd, 2005, 08:08 AM
some people have no clue about tennis why are they fans!!!!

Sir Stefwhit
Dec 3rd, 2005, 10:15 AM
I know it's hard to believe but it's just laws of physics. Not possible. The top women can probably give top juniors a challenge but not on the senior level. If it were easier like you seem to put it, I'm sure the Williams sisters would have joined the ATP tour a long time ago. Sorry.
;)
I've read all the post in here but my position remains unchanged. When you, and others, say:

I know it's hard to believe but it's just laws of physics. Not possible.

I don't believe in absolutes where likelyhoods exist. Although the likelihood of the woman winning is minute and the odds are she wont, to say it's "not possible" is ridiculous to my ears. I do concede that a top woman's player would struggle against a man on the tour ranked in the 200-500's, but to say there is no way- again, I just can't go there...

CooCooCachoo
Dec 3rd, 2005, 10:19 AM
Pretty fair score.

CooCooCachoo
Dec 3rd, 2005, 10:20 AM
Ivanovic beat Djorkovic (sp)

Djokovic let her win :rolleyes:

Maria Croft
Dec 3rd, 2005, 10:34 AM
I guess if it's really true, well done Maria!

justine&coria
Dec 3rd, 2005, 11:20 AM
Well, first Maria isn't really playing good at the moment, and Maria is no Justine, Kim, Serena or Venus.
Her game is based on power, mainly power : but men/boys are used to power. Her game is similar to Davenport. Their movement isn't good enough to be able to regularly beat low-ranked male players.
The only women I'd like to compete against men are the four "bigs". If one of them (not injured of course) lost to this boy then it'd be a bit sad for women's tennis.
But I truly think that Serena, Justine, Kim or Venus playing close to their best could beat some top-200 men, whose game isn't based on serve.

Gowza
Dec 3rd, 2005, 01:07 PM
well with all maria has done in her career she is still only 18, and this guy is 18? or winning under 18 tournaments, a top junior boy. she did alright, it's not like she got wiped off the court. it's basically an 18 year old guy playing an 18 year old girl, sure the girl has some great pro results but this junior boy is a top junior winning big junior events, based on the level of the mens game compared to the womens and the fact that these 2 are the same age don't think maria was expected to win. and she hasnt been playing well the end of this year either. decent results for maria i say.

CooCooCachoo
Dec 3rd, 2005, 02:52 PM
well with all maria has done in her career she is still only 18, and this guy is 18? or winning under 18 tournaments, a top junior boy. she did alright, it's not like she got wiped off the court. it's basically an 18 year old guy playing an 18 year old girl, sure the girl has some great pro results but this junior boy is a top junior winning big junior events, based on the level of the mens game compared to the womens and the fact that these 2 are the same age don't think maria was expected to win. and she hasnt been playing well the end of this year either. decent results for maria i say.

Sweeting won the Junior US Open, but has not performed all that well in the other Junior Grand Slams.

faboozadoo15
Dec 3rd, 2005, 04:43 PM
Oops, I meant in high school, there was no girls that could beat me. I wasn't thinking about college players when I said that. I'm still in high school, so I don't think beyond that I guess. I'm okay I guess. I mean my coach told me on a good day I'm a 4.5 player and that our no.1 is like a 5.0 on a good day (we have a very good team mind you). I'm nothing special, but I didn't start playing tennis until sophomore year after I taught myself from stratch the two years prior.
if you are only a 4.5 male, there are probably dozens of women from the ages of 16+ who could crush you.

Maryamator
Dec 3rd, 2005, 05:32 PM
afterall hes a guy..

~{X}~
Dec 3rd, 2005, 06:49 PM
I'd screw Ryan for sure. :drool: :D

BMP
Dec 3rd, 2005, 08:58 PM
It pisses me off when I run out the men who are bragging about their power and enjoy being considered the "superiour sex", and say things like that there is no chance that women can beat men, especially telling about sports. As if it's their own achievement that they are so damn strong. It's all about genetic and laws of nature. Men were originally created with larger muscle mass and considerable higher testosteron, that gives them strength, aggression etc. even if they don't go in for sports. It's not like they accomplished it all through the hard work - that's mostly due to nature. Women aren't guilty that they weren't originally created to be fighters, and even if they try their best to develop their physics not all of them will be able to fight against men at the same level...

Calvin
Dec 3rd, 2005, 09:31 PM
18 yo top junior boy bt 18 yo girl 7-5 6-3. How impressive. Especially if you know this same girl was spanked 6-0 6-0 by a 29 yo woman earlier this year.

This match was either anything but serious or a wake-up call for Mr. Sweeting to hit the training courts...

Edward.
Dec 3rd, 2005, 09:57 PM
shame on Sharapova - prancing around thinking she's top shit in tennis and then gets slammed by un unknown amature club player sad really, Ana Ivanovic would have pounded his ass into that court. A wimbledon champion does not lose to juniors regardless of sex.

Isn't it way past your bedtime?

faboozadoo15
Dec 3rd, 2005, 10:44 PM
18 yo top junior boy bt 18 yo girl 7-5 6-3. How impressive. Especially if you know this same girl was spanked 6-0 6-0 by a 29 yo woman earlier this year.

This match was either anything but serious or a wake-up call for Mr. Sweeting to hit the training courts...
because we all know sharapova always plays like she did when she lost that match to lindsay... she really can't and hasn't ever done any better.

hrbatyfan
Dec 4th, 2005, 04:04 AM
Ryan isn't even playing professional tennis immediately. Starting in 2006 he will be playing for the University of Florida.

Go Ryan. :D

!!!--Duiz™--!!!
Dec 4th, 2005, 07:55 AM
Isn't it way past your bedtime?

:haha: I am dying here!!! :lol:

!!!--Duiz™--!!!
Dec 4th, 2005, 07:56 AM
Maria when she trains plays to kill... Some of my friends have seen her practice on courts... and her ball dudes cannot even keep up with her... She just blasts off...

Now this guy is 4th in the world. Much more stronger than Maria... and people still blame Maria.. how foolish.. :rolleyes:

dania
Dec 4th, 2005, 08:25 AM
O.K.,I`m not a fan of Maria but I gotta say something,Ryan is a junior who played one of the top female tennis players of course he was going to play well and be ambitious,Masha on the other hand does not care about these kind of matches.It`s like A.C.Milan and friendlies,they don`t care about them,they always lose because they don`t see the point in making an effort to win.
People are saying junior male players are better than female players which frankly is ridiculous,it`s like saying the no.100 on the ATP tour would crush Davenport.
In an official tournament I don`t think Sharapova would have any troubles with Ryan.

Brian Stewart
Dec 4th, 2005, 10:25 AM
Well, I see the usual discussions have broken out, including some of the usual myths. I haven't added my 2˘ to one of these in a while, so I'm overdue. :)

First off, the old saw that no WTA player could beat any ranked ATP player. (One nitwit that works for Tennis-X even went so far as to say they couldn't beat anyone with an ATP doubles ranking.) This has long since been disproved. There have been quite a few instances, all legit (unlike Djokovic's generosity) of WTA players beating ATP players. (I even have an as-yet-unconfirmed report of one beating a player in the ATP's top 200 at the time.) So that horse has left the barn, end of discussion. It's no longer a question of if a WTA player could beat an ATP player, but rather of how highly ranked an ATP player could be beaten.

Next is the adage that the men hit harder than the women. This is usually extrapolated by announcers who fancy themselves knowledgable into statements that all of the men (ATP) hit harder than all of the women (WTA). In a word of two syllables, bullshit.

You see, we have these wonderful new technologies, such as Hawkeye. They can not only track the path of the ball, but also it's speed throughout said path. We used to get to see such graphics onscreen, but for some reason they have eliminated many of them in favor of just showing the initial speed of the shot. But when we did get the whole deal, we got fascinating info. (F.E.: Roddick's 150+ MPH 1st serve is only travelling 63 MPH when it reaches the opposing baseline, on grass-- slower on other surfaces.) What these pictures showed us included the speeds of some of the top players' groundstrokes. It showed that the average speed of Venus' groundies are faster than Roger's. This might inspire reflexive cries of disbelief, until one considers that Roger does mix his speeds more. So now you might be saying, "okay, we accept the 'average' speed, but what about their peak speeds?" No difference. And this is from an impartial mechanical device (several devices, actually). It has no preconceived notions and no agenda. And Venus is not the hardest hitter on the WTA by any means, whereas Roger's forehand is often described as being one of the hardest shots in men's tennis. (I don't see enough men's tennis to dispute this, but I have seen enough of the announcers in question to not take all their claims as gospel.)

Okay, if we accept technology's word that the men aren't hitting harder than the women, then it must be that their groundstrokes are better overall. Well, not quite. My own observations, some empirical, some documented scientifically, actually suggest that the quality of the women's groundstrokes are better. For example, the accuracy of the women's groundstrokes is much higher. This despite the fact that the women hit flatter (less margin for error) and, given that court dimensions are standard, the net presents more of an obstacle for the women, who tend to be shorter on average. Further observations suggest that if there were a standardized groundstrokes "skills" competition between the top men and women, the women would win the lion's share of these.

So, given that the speed of the groundstrokes is similar, and the accuracy is greater for the women, why don't they beat the top men? Is the serve that big of a factor? No. First off, radar gun speeds are misleading, as they measure initial speed only. (Literally as the ball is just leaving the racquet.) This tends to favor taller players over shorter ones, and men over women (we men have longer torsos). That means if a group of players all hit serves that were reaching the opposing baseline at the exact same speed, the radar gun readings would be higher for the taller and "maler" :) players. So the differences in speed are not what the gun indicates. (It's not unlike badminton, where their touted "140 MPH" shots are actually going 40 MPH when they reach the net.) Given a steady exposure to certain types of serves, good returners on either tour will adjust.

So, that leaves us with the physical differences. Are the differences in physical abilities enough to account for the results of head-to-head matches? In a word, yes.
I can speak from personal experience on this. Way back when I was in college, I played an actual ATP player. (We chased off the dinosaurs and waited for the lava to cool.) He was ranked in the top 200, although I hadn't heard of him (didn't even know there were 200 guys on the tour back then). He had the expected skills of such a ranked player. I had serviceable groundies, and a huge serve (which was neutralized by the altitude, as I only got 30% of my first serves in). The result? I lost in a decisive tiebreak. How was I able to push him so far if my big weapon was unavailable, and he had such a big advantage in groundstroke quality? The difference in physical skills. I had a huge advantage in size, strength, and (to his surprise) speed. Even though my groundies were inferior, I was always in position to hit them cleanly. And even if I got a bad bounce, I was strong enough to get something on the shot.

If I was able to overcome a huge deficit in stroke quality and nearly win, it's not surprising that the top men, who possess excellent groundstrokes, are able to parlay their physical advantages into comfortable wins over their female counterparts. But keep in mind that the disparity in physical skills (strenghth, speed, etc.) between college-aged me and the ATP players is greater than the disparity between the ATP and WTA players. So that means as you scroll down the ATP rankings, you're going to come across players who have vulnerabilities in their games, without enough physical skills to compensate. These will be the players vulnerable to defeat at the hands of top WTA players. We know the players are there. We just don't know where they are. Top 200? 300? 500? Unfortunately, logistics prevent us from ever fully scoping things out. (We'd have to get every top 10 or 20 WTA player to play several matches against every ATP player, on a variety of surfaces. We'd be look at thousands of matches per player.) So, other than the occasional happenstance benchmark to give us a clue, we don't really know where the "line of demarcation" is. One match against one player tells us little (unless the woman wins), as we've seen many instances on each tour where player A regularly loses to Player B, but regularly beats Player C, who is ranked much higher than B. Style matchups are as much a factor as anything.

I hope I've added to the discussion, not merely in volume but in substance. Regardless, I was overdue for a lengthy post. :)

K-Dog
Dec 4th, 2005, 03:30 PM
Well Brian, since you played in college I'm sure you'll know that a topspin ball kicks off the ball and is much harder to deal with than a flat shot (except maybe on grass or carpet). The reason that the men's groundies are harder to deal with is the spin and racquet head speed of the men. The more topspin on the and the more it jumps off the court, the harder it becomes to deal with. That is why Roger's shots are touted to be better than anyone elses. The more spin that is put on a ball, the slower the speed is. The women hit a lot flatter than the men on a whole obviously, but most women can't deal with all the spin that men put on the ball. Pro women handle it much better, but they still have a tremendous amount of problems with it. There really aren't that many women if at all that can generate the same heavy topspin that most men hit with (again exceptions to the rules like Agassi, Hewitt, and Henman). The reason that men are better tennis players (not more talented, but better) is because of the serve, and the physical advantages that most men have over women. For Maria to win 8 games was good for her. Ryan is a great player and certainly could've won this match easier if he played alittle bit better. Your arguement makes it seem like a woman could compete with a man from the WTA and ATP tours respectivley, which isn't the case. Any top 50 man would embarrass any top 10 woman. Sure the women can compete with the players ranked in the lower ranks (like 500 and beyond), but it isn't that easy for the women to win against guys.

K-Dog
Dec 4th, 2005, 03:37 PM
if you are only a 4.5 male, there are probably dozens of women from the ages of 16+ who could crush you.

not too many that I've met in Wisconsin. READ MY ENTIRE POST!! just like when you thought I was comparing the compactness of the serves of Jen and Kim, and I really wasn't even touching that subject. I said in WISCONSIN!!!!! Of course in more promising tennis states, I would get embarrassed.

SJW
Dec 4th, 2005, 03:38 PM
brilliant post, Brian Stewart :yeah:

ASV_FAN
Dec 5th, 2005, 11:54 AM
Some people on this board have no idea. I doubt any man in the top 250, probably top 500 or maybe even lower would lose to one of the women. I think one of the few possible exceptions would be Lindsay Davenport who I think could beat a slow man under the right circumstances. She is the only player with the necessary weight of shot, simply hitting the ball hard wouldn't get the girls anywhere.