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View Full Version : Steffi Graf's 1999 - way overrated


Sam L
Sep 24th, 2005, 03:28 PM
We often hear about how great Steffi was in her final year on tour. How phenomenal for someone her age to be winning a slam and farewelling the tour on such a high note.

But what we forget is that Steffi was SO YOUNG still.

Let's look, shall we?

Steffi turned 30 after winning the French Open in 1999. After that she played Wimbledon and lost in the finals and then retired.

Well let's look at two other recent greats who has retired already.

Chris Evert.

Chris turned 30 in Dec 1984. After that she won the 1984 Australian Open and then French Open 1985. That's back-to-back slams after turning 30!! She could've been like Steffi, and chickened out from competition from younger generations and make herself look good by retiring after 1985 French but she didn't. She played on.

Now Martina Navratilova.

Martina turned 30 in Oct 1986. She had just won Wimbledon and US Open back-to-back in 1986, and then she went onto win them again back-to-back in 1987. So again Martina could've retired after winning her slams at Steffi's retirement age and made herself look better. But she, like a champion like Chris also, didn't chicken out and stayed on and competed.

Conclusion: Graf's 1999 was way overrated. I need to remind the younger generation that Graf retired too early and it was basically a copout because she was scared she'd start having bad records against the younger generation. Let's face it, the Williams sisters were already having wins over her. Whereas, it took her 7 tries to beat Chris and 4 tries to beat Martina. It only took Venus and Serena, 3 and 2 tries respectively to start beating Graf. :eek:

And Martina and Chris could've retired at her age too and made themselves look more invincible.

If Chris Evert had retired at the 1985 French Open, she would've had a 4-0 record over Graf! :eek:

If Martina Navratilova had retired after 1986 US Open, she would've had a 4-1 record over Graf! :eek:

None of this 3-2 and 1-1 dubious winning records Steffi had over the sisters.

The sisters were catching up to Graf WAAAY faster in 1999 than Graf caught up to Evert and Navratilova when she was their age.

Digest.

irma
Sep 24th, 2005, 03:30 PM
Hate is such a sad thing :sad:

Sam L
Sep 24th, 2005, 03:31 PM
Hate is such a sad thing :sad:
I've only provided facts and stats.

shooze4ever
Sep 24th, 2005, 03:32 PM
Irma!!!!! Bobie??? Is that you? From CNN & WT??
Imelda Here. We have been wondering where/how you are.

irma
Sep 24th, 2005, 03:34 PM
I've only provided facts and stats.

Steffi is one of the greatest of all time. No matter if you like it or not :rolleyes:

Yeah my posts are childish but I am tired of those insults and yeah I am tired when they are not about Steffi either

If you all think certain topplayers suck. go out there and play yourself!

Infiniti2001
Sep 24th, 2005, 03:34 PM
Good Lord!! Aren't ya'll tired of cali's selective use of stats?? Now you know he will dig up something to counter this :haha:

irma
Sep 24th, 2005, 03:36 PM
Irma!!!!! Bobie??? Is that you? From CNN & WT??
Imelda Here. We have been wondering where/how you are.

:wavey: I am fine, thanks How are you?

I took a break from the internet because I was tired of certain things, but I can't resist to avoid it :lol:

Sam L
Sep 24th, 2005, 03:36 PM
Steffi is one of the greatest of all time. No matter if you like it or not :rolleyes:

Yeah my posts are childish but I am tired of those insults and yeah I am tired when they are not about Steffi either

If you all think certain topplayers suck. go out there and play yourself!
I didn't say she sucked. I said:

1. Her 1999 was overrated.

2. The sisters were catching her to her faster than she was catching up to Navratilova and Chris at their age.

Both are observations I deduced from facts and stats. At least, I'm trying to point out something insightful and trying to correct a common misconception.

irma
Sep 24th, 2005, 03:42 PM
I didn't say she sucked. I said:

1. Her 1999 was overrated.

2. The sisters were catching her to her faster than she was catching up to Navratilova and Chris at their age.

Both are observations I deduced from facts and stats. At least, I'm trying to point out something insightful and trying to correct a common misconception.

Nav and Evert had not been out for almost a year either so physical they were a lot stronger then Steffi, but no Steffi retired because she was scared right? :rolleyes:

Why do I even bother. You have no respect for Steffi. That's your choice
Have fun with it :wavey:

Chrissie-fan
Sep 24th, 2005, 03:42 PM
We often hear about how great Steffi was in her final year on tour. How phenomenal for someone her age to be winning a slam and farewelling the tour on such a high note.

But what we forget is that Steffi was SO YOUNG still.

Let's look, shall we?

Steffi turned 30 after winning the French Open in 1999. After that she played Wimbledon and lost in the finals and then retired.

Well let's look at two other recent greats who has retired already.

Chris Evert.

Chris turned 30 in Dec 1984. After that she won the 1984 Australian Open and then French Open 1985. That's back-to-back slams after turning 30!! She could've been like Steffi, and chickened out from competition from younger generations and make herself look good by retiring after 1985 French but she didn't. She played on.

Now Martina Navratilova.

Martina turned 30 in Oct 1986. She had just won Wimbledon and US Open back-to-back in 1986, and then she went onto win them again back-to-back in 1987. So again Martina could've retired after winning her slams at Steffi's retirement age and made herself look better. But she, like a champion like Chris also, didn't chicken out and stayed on and competed.

Conclusion: Graf's 1999 was way overrated. I need to remind the younger generation that Graf retired too early and it was basically a copout because she was scared she'd start having bad records against the younger generation. Let's face it, the Williams sisters were already having wins over her. Whereas, it took her 7 tries to beat Chris and 4 tries to beat Martina. It only took Venus and Serena, 3 and 2 tries respectively to start beating Graf. :eek:

And Martina and Chris could've retired at her age too and made themselves look more invincible.

If Chris Evert had retired at the 1985 French Open, she would've had a 4-0 record over Graf! :eek:

If Martina Navratilova had retired after 1986 US Open, she would've had a 4-1 record over Graf! :eek:

None of this 3-2 and 1-1 dubious winning records Steffi had over the sisters.

The sisters were catching up to Graf WAAAY faster in 1999 than Graf caught up to Evert and Navratilova when she was their age.

Digest.

You forgot to add that Chris went on to win the French in 1986 also. But the comparison with Graf is unfair in that Chris and Martina were healthy whereas Steffi had injuries to deal with. Besides,a player shoudn't be judged on what they could or couldn't have done when they weren't around anymore but on what they did when they were actually playing. :smoke:

Sam L
Sep 24th, 2005, 03:44 PM
But the comparison with Graf is unfair in that Chris and Martina were healthy whereas Steffi had injuries to deal with.

I don't live in a what-if world.

lolas
Sep 24th, 2005, 03:46 PM
Stop the hatred :)

vettipooh
Sep 24th, 2005, 03:46 PM
We often hear about how great Steffi was in her final year on tour. How phenomenal for someone her age to be winning a slam and farewelling the tour on such a high note.

But what we forget is that Steffi was SO YOUNG still.

Let's look, shall we?

Steffi turned 30 after winning the French Open in 1999. After that she played Wimbledon and lost in the finals and then retired.

Well let's look at two other recent greats who has retired already.

Chris Evert.

Chris turned 30 in Dec 1984. After that she won the 1984 Australian Open and then French Open 1985. That's back-to-back slams after turning 30!! She could've been like Steffi, and chickened out from competition from younger generations and make herself look good by retiring after 1985 French but she didn't. She played on.

Now Martina Navratilova.

Martina turned 30 in Oct 1986. She had just won Wimbledon and US Open back-to-back in 1986, and then she went onto win them again back-to-back in 1987. So again Martina could've retired after winning her slams at Steffi's retirement age and made herself look better. But she, like a champion like Chris also, didn't chicken out and stayed on and competed.

Conclusion: Graf's 1999 was way overrated. I need to remind the younger generation that Graf retired too early and it was basically a copout because she was scared she'd start having bad records against the younger generation. Let's face it, the Williams sisters were already having wins over her. Whereas, it took her 7 tries to beat Chris and 4 tries to beat Martina. It only took Venus and Serena, 3 and 2 tries respectively to start beating Graf. :eek:

And Martina and Chris could've retired at her age too and made themselves look more invincible.

If Chris Evert had retired at the 1985 French Open, she would've had a 4-0 record over Graf! :eek:

If Martina Navratilova had retired after 1986 US Open, she would've had a 4-1 record over Graf! :eek:

None of this 3-2 and 1-1 dubious winning records Steffi had over the sisters.

The sisters were catching up to Graf WAAAY faster in 1999 than Graf caught up to Evert and Navratilova when she was their age.

Digest.
Finally, a different viewpoint!! :worship: Thanks!! :yeah:

GoDominique
Sep 24th, 2005, 03:46 PM
Calimero is way better at this.

irma
Sep 24th, 2005, 03:49 PM
I still wanna know why you claimed that Steffi is one of your favs though?

hingis-seles
Sep 24th, 2005, 04:00 PM
Irma!!!!! Bobie??? Is that you? From CNN & WT??
Imelda Here. We have been wondering where/how you are.

OMG! :eek: :D

IMELDA!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :kiss: :hug: :hearts:

It's Ali! How's it going?

Sonf@
Sep 24th, 2005, 04:07 PM
Is this a Graf-hatred thread or a Cali-hatred one? :p

Sammm
Sep 24th, 2005, 04:33 PM
I think getting to 2 slam finals is still pretty good, especially for a woman who has a degenerative back disease...
It took Steffi longer to catch up with Chris + martina, but those two missed out on a lot of slams and had more easier opponents than Steffi. In the end, Steffi won 22 singles slams. Martina and chris have less and i'm pretty sure venus + serena won't get to that number.

MistyGrey
Sep 24th, 2005, 04:38 PM
Her last year.. wayy past her prime... coming back after career threatening injuries, 30 years old... and she still managed a year better than Serena Williams in 2005 :haha:

Geisha
Sep 24th, 2005, 04:39 PM
Once again, although I can't stand Steffi, this isn't fair in her case. I mean, in 1986, the game was a lot less physical than it is now, or even in 1999. I mean, players hit the ball weaker and the game was probably better suited for older players to succeed.

Now, I think it is more fair to pit Steffi against Lindsay Davenport. Lindsay is what? 30 now? Anywho, I think the game is even more physically demanding right now, so it is harder to win where you are below 18 or over 28...I think it is a testament to how great Lindsay is for her age.

Geisha
Sep 24th, 2005, 04:41 PM
Her last year.. wayy past her prime... coming back after career threatening injuries, 30 years old... and she still managed a year better than Serena Williams in 2005 :haha:

The game is tougher right now. It may not be better quality, but it is tougher to win. The top 15 players can win almost everything these days, as seen with Groenefeld and Kirilenko in the finals of a Tier II tournament.

It is totally unfair to degrade Serena's achievements this year. She got injured in April, re-injured in May, didn't play the French Open. Not to mention she had ankle and knee injuries and Wimbledon and Toronto, Canada.

Sam L
Sep 24th, 2005, 04:44 PM
No one has still talked about the matter at hand. I'll repeat for the dim witted.

1. Steffi Graf's 1999 was overrated especially in comparison to the likes of Evert and Navratilova. (Unfair to compare? Um, did I miss something here?)

2. The sisters caught up to Graf much faster at their age than Graf did to Evert/Navratilova.

To the idiot talking about Serena's 2005 season. Um, get a clue? That's irrelevant to the points I made. :lol:

saki
Sep 24th, 2005, 04:44 PM
Yes, I think people forget that she retired relatively young. But, on the other hand, I don't think she retired because she was scared to lose. She was tired of the injuries and wanted to start a family. I don't think that was a factor for either Evert or Navratilova. And, really, after 22 slams, I think she'd earnt the right to retire when she pleased.

Sam L
Sep 24th, 2005, 04:46 PM
Yes, I think people forget that she retired relatively young. But, on the other hand, I don't think she retired because she was scared to lose.

Yes and of course the latter is an exaggeration on my part. :)

But the other facts remain.

VeeReeDavJCap81
Sep 24th, 2005, 04:51 PM
Calimero is way better at this.

And you're "way" better at doing your disappearing trick

MistyGrey
Sep 24th, 2005, 04:52 PM
The game is tougher right now. It may not be better quality, but it is tougher to win. The top 15 players can win almost everything these days, as seen with Groenefeld and Kirilenko in the finals of a Tier II tournament.

It is totally unfair to degrade Serena's achievements this year. She got injured in April, re-injured in May, didn't play the French Open. Not to mention she had ankle and knee injuries and Wimbledon and Toronto, Canada.

unfair to Serena ..yes I agree.. but I was just pulling a Calimero/Sam L

Tougher today.. probably, but seeing Mary and Lindsay this year, I am convinced that players like Graf and Navratilova with today's training and equipment, would be even better than they were back in the day.

Pengwin
Sep 24th, 2005, 04:54 PM
Calimero is way better at this.

Sam L > Calimero > GoDominique

GoDominique
Sep 24th, 2005, 05:20 PM
Sam L > Calimero > GoDominique
All instruments >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hautbois

:)

vogus
Sep 24th, 2005, 05:20 PM
Graf in 1999

AO - QF
RG - W
W - F
US - DNP

17-2 looks like a pretty good Slam record to me :confused:

Pengwin
Sep 24th, 2005, 05:21 PM
All instruments >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hautbois

:)

Your arrows are the wrong way round...

vutt
Sep 24th, 2005, 05:24 PM
Calimero is way better at this.

LOL! This time I agree with you 100% :worship:

VeeReeDavJCap81
Sep 24th, 2005, 05:29 PM
All instruments >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hautbois

:)


An insect brain > GoDominique

Joana
Sep 24th, 2005, 05:30 PM
Winning RG beating #1, #2 and # 3 seed along the way = overrated
Reaching Wimbledon final = overrated
Achieving all that at the age of 30 after various injuries had nearly finished her career and she was written off by most everyone = overrated

K.

MistyGrey
Sep 24th, 2005, 05:31 PM
No one has still talked about the matter at hand. I'll repeat for the dim witted.

1. Steffi Graf's 1999 was overrated especially in comparison to the likes of Evert and Navratilova. (Unfair to compare? Um, did I miss something here?)

2. The sisters caught up to Graf much faster at their age than Graf did to Evert/Navratilova.

To the idiot talking about Serena's 2005 season. Um, get a clue? That's irrelevant to the points I made. :lol:

:yawn:

1.I agree Steffi Graf retired young. Considering that Evert and Navratilova took 12 years to get to 18 grandslams, while Steffi took only 8.. I shudder to think what Steffi would've achieved had she been healthy and playing well beyond 30.

2. The sisters never caught up to Steffi, they never won a Grandslam when Steffi was still playing... just the mere presence of Steffi in a GS draw was too much to handle for the sisters :haha:

u called me an idiot.. U 're so mean, why would u hurt my feelings.... :hysteric: :sobbing: :crying2:

GoDominique
Sep 24th, 2005, 05:34 PM
An insect brain > GoDominique
No, I'm a bit taller than that. :)

tennispro105
Sep 24th, 2005, 05:38 PM
this is rediculess!!! steffi was older than just about everyone she played her last year on tour and was still very successful! beat hingis, close match w/ Davenport, beat venus!, beat seles!
you have to remember that in the mid 80's, steffi was still a young teenager and not at her prime yet so your numbers of nav and ev having a 4- whatever winning record over her are irrelevent! and n and e weren't playing on nearly as demanding a tour schedule in their years as steffi did so it makes sense they were able to last that long.
i'm sorry but your stats and conclusions from them are pathetic!

Chrissie-fan
Sep 24th, 2005, 05:40 PM
Winning RG beating #1, #2 and # 3 seed along the way = overrated
Reaching Wimbledon final = overrated
Achieving all that at the age of 30 after various injuries had nearly finished her career and she was written off by most everyone = overrated

K.

Yep,I'm sure that all players would sign immediately to have a similarly overrated 2006. :smoke:

Joana
Sep 24th, 2005, 05:44 PM
If Chris Evert had retired at the 1985 French Open, she would've had a 4-0 record over Graf! :eek:


Great stat, considering Steffi had not even turned 16 at that time. :eek:

skanky~skanketta
Sep 24th, 2005, 05:49 PM
this is stupid!i cant stand steffi but here i am defending her ass.

she wanted to start a family. so she retired. wtf is the big deal?

abayen
Sep 24th, 2005, 06:13 PM
:yawn:

1.I agree Steffi Graf retired young. Considering that Evert and Navratilova took 12 years to get to 18 grandslams, while Steffi took only 8.. I shudder to think what Steffi would've achieved had she been healthy and playing well beyond 30.





I don't know if Steffi's performance argument can be bolstered by her pre-1999 injuries. Let's not forget that Steffi was arguably a major beneficiary of injury to another player. And so one should just look at what she achieved using objective stats. Being injured is part of the game. Objectively speaking, I agree Steffi's performance as a 30 year old doesnt even compare with that of Martina and Chris.

And as much as some of you would like to believe that the game in the 80s helped older players, that's pure rubbish. Teenagers were still doing really well back then and for "old players" like Martina and Chris to do well - was more a testimony of their greatness than anything else. Of course, some of you forget that some of the new "old players" are doing well even in today's game.
The game rewards discipline, fitness and mental strength on top of technique and power, which is relative in any case, even today.

LDVTennis
Sep 24th, 2005, 06:16 PM
No one has still talked about the matter at hand. I'll repeat for the dim witted.

1. Steffi Graf's 1999 was overrated especially in comparison to the likes of Evert and Navratilova. (Unfair to compare? Um, did I miss something here?)

2. The sisters caught up to Graf much faster at their age than Graf did to Evert/Navratilova.

To the idiot talking about Serena's 2005 season. Um, get a clue? That's irrelevant to the points I made. :lol:

Steffi ended her career with 22 major titles, a Grand Slam, and 186 consecutive weeks at No. 1. She accomplished all these feats at an earlier age than either Evert or Navratilova. Indeed, despite playing into their 30's, neither Martina or Chris ever won 22 majors or a Grand Slam (all four majors in the same calendar year).

In what way did the W Sisters catch up to Graf? Last I heard, neither one of them had amassed 22 majors, a Golden Slam, and 186 consecutive weeks at No. 1. Indeed, just by age 21, Graf already had won 9 majors, a Grand Slam, and been No. 1 for 186 consecutive weeks. Looks like the W Sisters still have some catching up to do. At the rate they are going, they probably would have to play into their 40's to even come close to what Graf did by age 21.

Here are some more of those pesky facts:

Graf first defeated Navratilova at the age of 17 (1987). From age 18 to 19, she defeated Martina all four times she played her.

Graf first defeated Evert at the age of 16. She never lost to Evert again.

Serena first defeated Graf at the age of 17. In doing so, she avenged a loss to Graf earlier that year (1999). Their head to head record is tied 1-1.

Venus first defeated Graf at the age of 18. She lost her last meeting to Graf in 1999. Their head to head record stands at 3 matches for Graf, 2 for Venus.

How can you possibly conclude from a review of their head to head records and comparative ages that the W Sisters overtook Graf sooner than Graf overtook Chris and Martina.? About the only thing that is clear from such a review is that once Graf overtook Chris and Martina she underlined that mastery by going on a winning streak against them of more than 2 matches. From reviewing the record, it doesn't look like Venus or Serena ever managed anything of the same sort against Graf.

mauresmofan
Sep 24th, 2005, 06:59 PM
Lets look at these facts:

Graf returned from a career ending injury to her knee.
She did not run from the competition - Hingis made a comment that Graf would not be able to compete with the fast evolving game. She came back and "coped" by winning the French and getting to the finals of Wimbledon.
In 1999 she beat Serena, Venus, Hingis and Kournikova who were the new instated teen queens as well as Seles and Davenport.

I think 1999 was the toughest year for womens tennis as there were so many great players playing great tennis and it wasn't just a few players at the top. You had Davenport, Hingis, Seles, Kournikova, Venus, Novotna and Pierce in the mix as well as Mauresmo emerging at the Australian Open and Serena playing Grand Slam winning tennis. It was a great year for tennis and all 4 Grand Slams were won by 4 Greats of the game.

Stamp Paid
Sep 24th, 2005, 07:06 PM
Serena :hearts:

I would love to see peak Graf vs peak Serena. Who would win?

Stamp Paid
Sep 24th, 2005, 07:12 PM
WTAworld.com Message You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Sam L again.


:banghead:

jimbo mack
Sep 24th, 2005, 07:29 PM
We often hear about how great Steffi was in her final year on tour. How phenomenal for someone her age to be winning a slam and farewelling the tour on such a high note.

But what we forget is that Steffi was SO YOUNG still.

Let's look, shall we?

Steffi turned 30 after winning the French Open in 1999. After that she played Wimbledon and lost in the finals and then retired.

Well let's look at two other recent greats who has retired already.

Chris Evert.

Chris turned 30 in Dec 1984. After that she won the 1984 Australian Open and then French Open 1985. That's back-to-back slams after turning 30!! She could've been like Steffi, and chickened out from competition from younger generations and make herself look good by retiring after 1985 French but she didn't. She played on.

Now Martina Navratilova.

Martina turned 30 in Oct 1986. She had just won Wimbledon and US Open back-to-back in 1986, and then she went onto win them again back-to-back in 1987. So again Martina could've retired after winning her slams at Steffi's retirement age and made herself look better. But she, like a champion like Chris also, didn't chicken out and stayed on and competed.

Conclusion: Graf's 1999 was way overrated. I need to remind the younger generation that Graf retired too early and it was basically a copout because she was scared she'd start having bad records against the younger generation. Let's face it, the Williams sisters were already having wins over her. Whereas, it took her 7 tries to beat Chris and 4 tries to beat Martina. It only took Venus and Serena, 3 and 2 tries respectively to start beating Graf. :eek:

And Martina and Chris could've retired at her age too and made themselves look more invincible.

If Chris Evert had retired at the 1985 French Open, she would've had a 4-0 record over Graf! :eek:

If Martina Navratilova had retired after 1986 US Open, she would've had a 4-1 record over Graf! :eek:

None of this 3-2 and 1-1 dubious winning records Steffi had over the sisters.

The sisters were catching up to Graf WAAAY faster in 1999 than Graf caught up to Evert and Navratilova when she was their age.

Digest.

another idiotic wtaworld poster strikes again :rolleyes:

Calimero377
Sep 24th, 2005, 10:01 PM
We often hear about how great Steffi was in her final year on tour. How phenomenal for someone her age to be winning a slam and farewelling the tour on such a high note.

But what we forget is that Steffi was SO YOUNG still.
....

And Martina and Chris could've retired at her age too and made themselves look more invincible.
....

If Evert had retired just after her 30th birthday she would have only 16 slams under her belt, Navi only 15.

Even "Sam L" would acknowledge that Graf's 22 slams would beat 15 Navi slams easily.




....
The sisters were catching up to Graf WAAAY faster in 1999 than Graf caught up to Evert and Navratilova when she was their age. ....


When Graf was 17 she overtook Evert in the rankings, when she was 18 she overtook Navi to take the #1 spot.
When Serena was 17 and Venus 19 - they were overtaken by Graf (with her reconstructed knee).

The difference in a nutshell ....
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Calimero377
Sep 24th, 2005, 10:03 PM
Good Lord!! Aren't ya'll tired of cali's selective use of stats?? Now you know he will dig up something to counter this :haha:


Done.

Actually it is easy.

Just checking who overtook whom in the WTA rankings in 99. :lol:

tennisjam
Sep 24th, 2005, 10:07 PM
Graf's career results are overrated and will always be...

still, the fact her results are indeed overrated will always remain too...

Calimero377
Sep 24th, 2005, 10:09 PM
I didn't say she sucked. I said:

1. Her 1999 was overrated.

2. The sisters were catching her to her faster than she was catching up to Navratilova and Chris at their age.

Both are observations I deduced from facts and stats. At least, I'm trying to point out something insightful and trying to correct a common misconception.


Graf was 17 years and 8 months old when she overtook Evert in the WTA rankings.
She was 18 years and 2 months old when she overtook Navratilova and reached the #1 spot.

Serena was 17 and Venus was 19 when Graf overtook them in the rankings.

:lol:


If Graf had not had the reconstructive knee surgery she would have won a lot of slams at the beginning of this millenium. The Willy sisters should thank the Lord that Graf retired in summer of 99. Maybe - only maybe - Serena of 2002 would have been too much for a then 33-year-old Steffi. But in 2000/01 the slam titles would have been hers to take.

Calimero377
Sep 24th, 2005, 10:14 PM
I think getting to 2 slam finals is still pretty good, especially for a woman who has a degenerative back disease...
It took Steffi longer to catch up with Chris + martina, ....

Are you stoned?

Graf was 16 years old when she beat Evert and Navi for the first time.
Willies were 17/18 already when they beat Graf for the first time.

Graf overtook Evert in the rankings as 17-year-old and Navi 2 months after her 18th birthday.
Serena and Venus WERE overtaken by Graf when they were 17 and 19 years old.

That's the difference between the greatest-ever and the merely good ...


:worship:

Calimero377
Sep 24th, 2005, 10:22 PM
....
Graf first defeated Navratilova at the age of 17 (1987). ...

Graf first defeated Navratilova at the age of 16 (1986).
Navi got a 6-2 6-3 ass-whipping ....

Calimero377
Sep 24th, 2005, 10:27 PM
Graf's career results are overrated and will always be...

still, the fact her results are indeed overrated will always remain too...


It is tough to overrate

a) a 5-7 6-2 6-1 win in the Wimbledon 88 final against 6-time defending champion Navratilova on Navi's favourite surface after having trailed 5-7 0-2

b) a 6-2 6-1 belting of #1 Seles in the Wimbledon 92 final

c) a 6-2 6-0 blow-out in the AO 94 final against #2 Sanchez.


Which player has done something similar?

shooze4ever
Sep 24th, 2005, 10:30 PM
http://www.wtaworld.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=6274662


HEY ALI, Long Time. :-) I'm good, and yourself?

Brooks.
Sep 24th, 2005, 10:43 PM
Serena :hearts:

I would love to see peak Graf vs peak Serena. Who would win?

ugh Serena, duh :rolleyes: ................ :p

Mother_Marjorie
Sep 24th, 2005, 10:44 PM
We often hear about how great Steffi was in her final year on tour. How phenomenal for someone her age to be winning a slam and farewelling the tour on such a high note.

But what we forget is that Steffi was SO YOUNG still.

Let's look, shall we?

Steffi turned 30 after winning the French Open in 1999. After that she played Wimbledon and lost in the finals and then retired.

Well let's look at two other recent greats who has retired already.

Chris Evert.

Chris turned 30 in Dec 1984. After that she won the 1984 Australian Open and then French Open 1985. That's back-to-back slams after turning 30!! She could've been like Steffi, and chickened out from competition from younger generations and make herself look good by retiring after 1985 French but she didn't. She played on.

Now Martina Navratilova.

Martina turned 30 in Oct 1986. She had just won Wimbledon and US Open back-to-back in 1986, and then she went onto win them again back-to-back in 1987. So again Martina could've retired after winning her slams at Steffi's retirement age and made herself look better. But she, like a champion like Chris also, didn't chicken out and stayed on and competed.

Conclusion: Graf's 1999 was way overrated. I need to remind the younger generation that Graf retired too early and it was basically a copout because she was scared she'd start having bad records against the younger generation. Let's face it, the Williams sisters were already having wins over her. Whereas, it took her 7 tries to beat Chris and 4 tries to beat Martina. It only took Venus and Serena, 3 and 2 tries respectively to start beating Graf. :eek:

And Martina and Chris could've retired at her age too and made themselves look more invincible.

If Chris Evert had retired at the 1985 French Open, she would've had a 4-0 record over Graf! :eek:

If Martina Navratilova had retired after 1986 US Open, she would've had a 4-1 record over Graf! :eek:

None of this 3-2 and 1-1 dubious winning records Steffi had over the sisters.

The sisters were catching up to Graf WAAAY faster in 1999 than Graf caught up to Evert and Navratilova when she was their age.

Digest.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Shit-stirring troublemaker

!<blocparty>!
Sep 24th, 2005, 10:46 PM
:lol: A different point of view, another shit Graf thread.

deja_entendu
Sep 24th, 2005, 11:06 PM
omg sam is an idiot. worst. cali impression. ever. :haha:

terjw
Sep 24th, 2005, 11:12 PM
Winning RG beating #1, #2 and # 3 seed along the way = overrated
Reaching Wimbledon final = overrated
Achieving all that at the age of 30 after various injuries had nearly finished her career and she was written off by most everyone = overrated

K.

There are many other preat replies in this thread - but I think this sums up succintly and best why Graf's 1999 was not overrated.

On another note about Chris and Martina winning slams in their thirties: Players in that era started their careers later than today's players - had fewer injuries - and retired later. I don't think we'll see players consistently winning slams and tournaments in their thirties again. We have Kim announcing her retirement in two years time when she'll be only 24. We have players dropping like nine pins with injuries. And no way can I envisage the Williams sisters still playing when they are 30.

Sam L
Sep 24th, 2005, 11:26 PM
When Graf was 17 she overtook Evert in the rankings, when she was 18 she overtook Navi to take the #1 spot.
When Serena was 17 and Venus 19 - they were overtaken by Graf (with her reconstructed knee).

The difference in a nutshell ....
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Well Hingis overtook Graf to take the #1 spot at 16. :lol: :lol: :lol:

You can't win. Graf at a younger age was caught up to by younger generations MUCH MUCH quicker than Evert and Navratilova. :lol:

Sam L
Sep 24th, 2005, 11:29 PM
Winning RG beating #1, #2 and # 3 seed along the way = overrated
Reaching Wimbledon final = overrated
Achieving all that at the age of 30 after various injuries had nearly finished her career and she was written off by most everyone = overrated

K.
Yes what achieved was great. But it's overrated in comparison to what Evert and Navratilova achieved at the same age. Further, if they had retired at the same age, they would've left the Tour with a "bang" too. That's what I'm calling overrated.

Did you even read my first post? :confused: Or if you did, did you understand it?

Sam L
Sep 24th, 2005, 11:31 PM
And as much as some of you would like to believe that the game in the 80s helped older players, that's pure rubbish. Teenagers were still doing really well back then and for "old players" like Martina and Chris to do well - was more a testimony of their greatness than anything else.


:worship::worship::worship::worship::worship:

Look, this thread has a multi purpose. And that is to also show how great Chris and Martina was and to make sure they're not forgotten. :)

Sam L
Sep 24th, 2005, 11:32 PM
If Evert had retired just after her 30th birthday she would have only 16 slams under her belt, Navi only 15.

Even "Sam L" would acknowledge that Graf's 22 slams would beat 15 Navi slams easily.

1. Margaret Court = 24 slams. :lol:

2. Neither Evert nor Navratilova was stabbed. They were not assisted by Gunther Parche. :lol:

Chrissie-fan
Sep 25th, 2005, 12:23 AM
Graf's career results are overrated and will always be...

still, the fact her results are indeed overrated will always remain too...

Well,what would have been impressive enough for her not to be overrated? 25 slams? 30? 40? 50? Or would we then have heard that "the competition was to weak"?

Sam L
Sep 25th, 2005, 12:26 AM
Well,what would have been impressive enough for her not to be overrated? 25 slams? 30? 40? 50? Or would we then have heard that "the competition was to weak"?
Well Chrissie-fan, recently I started a thread in which I asked what will it take for Serena Williams to be the greatest ever, in which many many people said 25 grand slam singles titles. :eek: Yes, they said it, I can pull it up.

So I guess the same standard should apply to Graf. Yes?

Sam L
Sep 25th, 2005, 12:27 AM
And I can't speak for tennisjam, but my point about overrated was her 1999 year only, not her whole career so...

Joana
Sep 25th, 2005, 12:30 AM
Yes what achieved was great. But it's overrated in comparison to what Evert and Navratilova achieved at the same age. Further, if they had retired at the same age, they would've left the Tour with a "bang" too. That's what I'm calling overrated.

Did you even read my first post? :confused: Or if you did, did you understand it?

Comparisons to Evert and Navratilova are totally irrelevant. Considering her career was almost over, Graf she did in 1999 was great. End of story.

Sam L
Sep 25th, 2005, 12:32 AM
Comparisons to Evert and Navratilova are totally irrelevant. Considering her career was almost over, Graf she did in 1999 was great. End of story.
Yes but I'm sick of the younger generation thinking that what she did in her final year was the greatest achievement for anyone in their final year of tennis. Like it was so great for someone so old to be achieving so much.

So I just wanted to correct a common misconception. :confused:

Chrissie-fan
Sep 25th, 2005, 12:32 AM
Serena :hearts:

I would love to see peak Graf vs peak Serena. Who would win?

Well,let's assume that the Serena of the Serena-slam would have beaten the Graf of the golden slam,something which is far from certain,but let's for the sake of argument assume that she would have....It would still mean that if they had been exact contemporaries in all probability Graf would have had a huge winning record against Serena because Graf was far more consistent throughout her career,and average Graf was a lot better than average Serena.

Chrissie-fan
Sep 25th, 2005, 12:45 AM
Well Chrissie-fan, recently I started a thread in which I asked what will it take for Serena Williams to be the greatest ever, in which many many people said 25 grand slam singles titles. :eek: Yes, they said it, I can pull it up.

So I guess the same standard should apply to Graf. Yes?

Yes,I know the thread. Personally I don't really believe in a "the best ever" player,but I definitely believe in "tier 1 all-time greats",and Graf,along with Wills,Lenglen,Court,Navratilova,Chrissie and maybe two or three others belongs in that group in my view. But for those who insist on just one name (me not being one of them),I think Graf is as good a candidate as anyone.

terjw
Sep 25th, 2005, 12:54 AM
Yes but I'm sick of the younger generation thinking that what she did in her final year was the greatest achievement for anyone in their final year of tennis. Like it was so great for someone so old to be achieving so much.

So I just wanted to correct a common misconception. :confused:

Hmm - looks like you're moving the goalposts now. I've never really thought about whether it was the greatest achievement by anyone in their final year. I'd have to think about that one. Cali might have claimed that and after some thought I may or may not think that myself - but as far as I'm aware ppl back then weren't saying that nor was anyone here. Who did you think was saying greatest achievement by anyone in their final year? Everyone was saying "What an achievement" - and that is definitely not overrated.

Sam L
Sep 25th, 2005, 01:11 AM
Hmm - looks like you're moving the goalposts now. I've never really thought about whether it was the greatest achievement by anyone in their final year. I'd have to think about that one. Cali might have claimed that and after some thought I may or may not think that myself - but as far as I'm aware ppl back then weren't saying that nor was anyone here. Who did you think was saying greatest achievement by anyone in their final year? Everyone was saying "What an achievement" - and that is definitely not overrated.
Well if Chrissie and Martina had retired at the same age as Steffi, it would've been deemed an even GREATER achievement for the reasons I presented in my original post. :)

LDVTennis
Sep 25th, 2005, 01:47 AM
Yes but I'm sick of the younger generation thinking that what she did in her final year was the greatest achievement for anyone in their final year of tennis. Like it was so great for someone so old to be achieving so much.

So I just wanted to correct a common misconception. :confused:


Yeah, yeah. Of course, you will be sure to get back to us when any of today's top players manage to make two major finals and to win one of those in their last year on the tour.

Until then, the assumption that you have anything of substance to say is definitely overrated.

Sam L
Sep 25th, 2005, 01:54 AM
Yeah, yeah. Of course, you will be sure to get back to us when any of today's top players manage to make two major finals and to win one of those in their last year on the tour.

Until then, the assumption that you have anything of substance to say is definitely overrated.
Still 6 more years to go before Serena turns 30. Plenty of time. Plenty of suffering for you too, to watch a black woman holding up grand slam trophies. :lol: