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Calimero377
Sep 24th, 2005, 08:19 AM
As some people still maintain that Lindsay Davenport is one of the greatest hard-court players of the open era it is quite interesting to analyse her success on this surface (out-door events only) year-by-year.


Until 1997 it is abysmal - let's cover this time with mercy .....

1998:
wins Stanford (vs. Venus), San Diego (vs. Pierce), Manhattan Beach (vs. Hingis), USO (vs. Hingis)
loses Sydney (vs.Serena), AO (vs. Martinez), Oklahoma (vs. Venus), Indian Wells (Hingis), Key Biscayne (Kournikova), New Haven (Graf).
4 tournament wins, 6 losses. Not bad.

1999:
wins Sydney (vs. Hingis), Stanford (vs. Venus)
loses AO (vs. Momo), Indian Wells (vs. Serena), Key Biscayne (Graf, w.o.), San Diego (vs. Venus), Manhattan Beach (vs. Halard), New Haven (vs. Venus), USO (vs.Serena)
2 tournament wins, 7 losses (one w.o.). Mediocre.

2000:
wins AO (vs. Hingis), Indian Wells (vs. Hingis)
loses Sydney (vs. Momo), Miami (vs. Hingis), Stanford (vs. Hingis), Stanford (vs. Venus), San Diego (vs. Kournikova), Los Angeles (vs. Serena), Canadian Open (vs. Maleeva), USO (vs. Venus)
2 tournament wins, 8 losses. Mediocre (AO though).

2001:
wins Scottsdale (vs. Shaughessy), Los Angeles (vs. Seles)
loses Sydney (vs. Hingis), AO (vs. Capriati), Indian Wells (vs. Serena), Miami (vs. Demented), Stanford (vs. Clijsters), San Diego (vs. Venus), New Haven (vs. Venus), USO (vs. Serena)
2 tournament wins, 8 losses. Mediocre.

2002:
wins zero
loses Stanford (vs. Clijsters), San Diego (vs. Venus), Los Angeles (vs. Rubin), New Haven (vs. Venus), USO (vs. Serena)
zero tournament wins, 5 losses. Embarrassing.

2003:
wins zero
loses Sydney (vs. Clijsters), AO (vs. Enna), Scottsdale (vs. Sugiyama), Indian Wells (vs. Clijsters), Miami (vs. Bartoli), San Diego (vs. Clijsters), Los Angeles (vs. Clijsters), New Haven (vs. Capriati), USO (vs. Clijsters).
zero tournament wins, 9 losses. Beyond embarrassing.

2004:
wins Stanford (vs. Venus), Los Angeles (vs. Serena), San Diego (vs. Myskina), Cincinnati (vs. Zvonareva)
loses AO (vs. Enna), Indian Wells (vs. Enna), USO (vs. Kuzzy)
4 tournament wins, 3 losses. Not bad (no slam though).

2005:
wins Dubai (vs. Jankovic), New Haven (vs. Momo), Bali (vs. Schiavone)
loses AO (vs. Serena), Indian Wells (vs. Clijsters), Stanford (vs. ALG), USO (vs. Demented)
3 tournament wins, 4 losses. Mediocre.


From 1998-2005 Davenport has won 17 hard-court tournaments. And lost at 50.
17-50.

Graf has won 37 hard-court tournaments in 1986-96. And lost at 18.
37-18.

17-50 or 37-18 - what is better?


:lol:

Sam L
Sep 24th, 2005, 08:32 AM
Well Lindsay achieved her record without assistance from Gunther Parche. :lol:

Paneru
Sep 24th, 2005, 08:37 AM
Well Lindsay achieved her record without assistance from Gunther Parche. :lol:

Oh snap! :tape:

Calimero377
Sep 24th, 2005, 08:45 AM
Well Lindsay achieved her record without assistance from Gunther Parche. :lol:


Without Parche Davenport never would have won a tournament with Seles being in the draw. Or do you really think that Lindsay would have won USO 98, Wim 99 and AO 00 without The Seles Stabbing????

Graf on the other hand won most of her hard-court titles pre-Stabbing.

Jakeev
Sep 24th, 2005, 08:48 AM
Considering Lindsay has battled some injury problems earlier this decade, you can't fault that her record is not as good as it could be on hard courts.

But her career hard-court record of 408-94 so far is hardly what I would call shabby, even if she doesn't have Graf-like numbers.

(and not sure why you are omitting her pre-98 record since she did win 5 titles when she was not in the greatest shape of her career)

LoveFifteen
Sep 24th, 2005, 08:49 AM
Someone needs to get a life. Seriously ...

Stamp Paid
Sep 24th, 2005, 09:00 AM
But no one ever said Davenport was greater than Graf, on any surface!!!!

Calimero377
Sep 24th, 2005, 09:04 AM
Considering Lindsay has battled some injury problems earlier this decade, you can't fault that her record is not as good as it could be on hard courts.

But her career hard-court record of 408-94 so far is hardly what I would call shabby, even if she doesn't have Graf-like numbers.

(and not sure why you are omitting her pre-98 record since she did win 5 titles when she was not in the greatest shape of her career)


Actually she won 7 (outdoor) hard-court tournaments in 1991-1997. But had 33 losses on that surface too.
So Lindsay has won 24 and lost 83.

BTW, do you want me to mail you the Graf career injury list? What do you think Graf would have been able to achieve without those tons of injuries?
She missed 7 slams due to injury in the 90ies. She most probably would have won AO 95 and/or 96 if she hadn't been sidelined due to injury. And that would have given her a second or even third Grand Slam.
Without her terrible knee injury her career most probably would not have virtually ended in 1997 (at age 27). If Graf had had a relatively injury-free career as both Navi or Evert have had she would have about 30 slams under her belt today.

Sam L
Sep 24th, 2005, 09:07 AM
BTW, do you want me to mail you the Graf career injury list? What do you think Graf would have been able to achieve without those tons of injuries?
She missed 7 slams due to injury in the 90ies. She most probably would have won AO 95 and/or 96 if she hadn't been sidelined due to injury. And that would have given her a second or even third Grand Slam.
Without her terrible knee injury her career most probably would not have virtually ended in 1997 (at age 27). If Graf had had a relatively injury-free career as both Navi or Evert have had she would have about 30 slams under her belt today.

Could've, Would've, Should've girl. :lol:

I prefer Margaret Court with her 24 grand slam singles titles. :lol:

Calimero377
Sep 24th, 2005, 09:12 AM
But no one ever said Davenport was greater than Graf, on any surface!!!!


You sure?

"Queenlindsay" says:

"No one took hardcourt season like Lindsay does!!!
twice in her career she swipe all hardcourts before US Open winning 4 titles in 4 weeks('98 and 2004).

Lindsay also took slams indoor season, sweeping fall season with 3 or titles in as much weeks.

Best Hardcourt player:

1. Lindsay Davenport

Best Indoor player:

1. Lindsay Davenport"

Calimero377
Sep 24th, 2005, 09:13 AM
Someone needs to get a life. Seriously ...


LoveThirty ...

Stamp Paid
Sep 24th, 2005, 09:13 AM
You sure?

"Queenlindsay" says:

"No one took hardcourt season like Lindsay does!!!
twice in her career she swipe all hardcourts before US Open winning 4 titles in 4 weeks('98 and 2004).

Lindsay also took slams indoor season, sweeping fall season with 3 or titles in as much weeks.

Best Hardcourt player:

1. Lindsay Davenport

Best Indoor player:

1. Lindsay Davenport"

Queen Lindsay is just a biased fan, not even pretending to be an objective observer. :lol:

ceiling_fan
Sep 24th, 2005, 09:15 AM
i think your "mediocre's" should really be considered "good's"

Calimero377
Sep 24th, 2005, 09:21 AM
Could've, Would've, Should've girl. :lol:

I prefer Margaret Court with her 24 grand slam singles titles. :lol:


98 % of the world's population would prefer Graf's career.

Graf has 4 Wimbledons and 1 FO more than Court.
Court has 7 more AOs instead.
I don't even want to dwell on the strength of the AO fields in the 60ies (How many matches did you have to win the title back then - 4 or 5? :lol: ) ...

BTW, Graf is not a woulda-shoulda-coulda girl.
She has the silverware in her living room at home. And damn, she wins all these greatest-ever polls ..... :lol:

Calimero377
Sep 24th, 2005, 09:22 AM
i think your "mediocre's" should really be considered "good's"


If you apply "greatest-ever" standards then "mediocre" still is extremely benevolent ...

LoveFifteen
Sep 24th, 2005, 09:32 AM
If Graf knew you existed, I don't think she'd be happy to have you as a fan. She'd say, "Please get a life, sweetie! It's time to do something besides posting inane trivia about me on WTAword.com"

Sam L
Sep 24th, 2005, 09:33 AM
And damn, she wins all these greatest-ever polls ..... :lol:

Really? Didn't Martina Navratilova win the last one that was announced in Britain? :lol:

:haha:

Sam L
Sep 24th, 2005, 09:35 AM
If Graf knew you existed, I don't think she'd be happy to have you as a fan. She'd say, "Please get a life, sweetie! It's time to do something besides posting inane trivia about me on WTAword.com"
She'd call WTA Tour security immediately to alert them there's a Gunther Parche II loose. :lol:

Calimero377
Sep 24th, 2005, 09:44 AM
If Graf knew you existed, I don't think she'd be happy to have you as a fan. She'd say, "Please get a life, sweetie! It's time to do something besides posting inane trivia about me on WTAword.com"


She would say "Thank God there is some-one out there who reminds young fanboys and -girls of current players that there is something beyond grunting and senseless ball-bashing in women's tennis - grace, beauty, class, humility".

Calimero377
Sep 24th, 2005, 09:47 AM
Really? Didn't Martina Navratilova win the last one that was announced in Britain? :lol:

:haha:


The one where the gay community stuffed the ballots? :confused:

Sam L
Sep 24th, 2005, 09:50 AM
The one where the gay community stuffed the ballots? :confused:
I only wish the gay community were that powerful. Really. :confused:

So anyway the point is, no there was not stuffing of ballots. Navratilova is the greatest according to latest polls. :lol:

lindsayno1
Sep 24th, 2005, 10:18 AM
Calimero377 do you have a shrine to Graf or something?! Your obsessed..... and its seriously NOT a good thing. Shes been gone since 99.... get over it!

irma
Sep 24th, 2005, 10:36 AM
Well Lindsay achieved her record without assistance from Gunther Parche. :lol:

I am glad you finally let your "I love Steffi so much" bs away :wavey:

Oizo
Sep 24th, 2005, 10:51 AM
The one where the gay community stuffed the ballots? :confused:

:haha:

The problem with people considering this person or the other as the greatest of all and not Steffi is due to a cognitive dissonance, which makes it easier for them to live with it :lol:

Calimero377
Sep 24th, 2005, 11:02 AM
Calimero377 do you have a shrine to Graf or something?! Your obsessed..... and its seriously NOT a good thing. Shes been gone since 99.... get over it!


Well, my name is not "steffino1" ore something disturbing like that ....

And as you may have noticed I'm able to support my opinions with facts and stats. And when some jerks maintains that Davenport is a better hard-courter than Graf they get flak. Simple as that.

And no, I have no Graf shrine (but speaking about it - not a bad idea .... ). I have a huge Graf video/DVD collection though. And although she is "gone" since 6 years the video/DVD technology allows to recreate her graceful style of tennis again and again. Same with Beethoven symphonies and Hopper paintings - they were made long ago but remain art even today.

You don't want to tell my watching two, ehm, moderate-looking girls with an awkward style of movement like Davenport and V. Williams tops watching a Graf-Sabatini match from 1992????????????

Hey, some people even prefer listening to Shakira instead of listening to Beethoven. It is a open society here ...

:wavey:

Lindsayfan32
Sep 24th, 2005, 11:14 AM
I have say I agree that Lindsay is by no means thge greatest hardcourt player. But I will go as far as saying one of the best. She has won 2 cal slams (98 - 04) 28 of her 49 titles have been on hard court two of her three slams have been on hardcourt and I do count rebound ace as a hardcourt its as good as. To say she is the greatest is going a bit far in my books.

Martian KC
Sep 24th, 2005, 01:19 PM
I can't believe someone would be so into stats.:retard:

dododo
Sep 24th, 2005, 03:02 PM
Oh my god.. If you really want to.. you could also find always negative points about the greatest players in the world. GET A FUCKING LIFE! Looks like people have time to look up like all the scores in the past.. and all the fucking stats.. pathetic

Loughyunijen
Sep 24th, 2005, 03:05 PM
Calimero.....Were you bitter in any way when Lindsay whooped Graff's ass at wimbledon in 1999 by any chance?

Sam L
Sep 24th, 2005, 03:05 PM
Same with Beethoven symphonies and Hopper paintings - they were made long ago but remain art even today.


Hey, some people even prefer listening to Shakira instead of listening to Beethoven. It is a open society here ...


Except true appreciators of high art do not need to whore out what they like. Do you see a classical music fan going into a Shakira thread in non-tennis saying "Ew, awful music, the music surely has deteriorated since the 19th century" or whatever?

It's called "class". Something you obviously lack.

Sam L
Sep 24th, 2005, 03:06 PM
Calimero.....Were you bitter in any way when Lindsay whooped Graff's ass at wimbledon in 1999 by any chance?
Yeah now that's what I call a send-off. :lol:

Leo_DFP
Sep 24th, 2005, 03:17 PM
Davenport won the two biggest hard court tournaments in the world and that's all that matters to her (and me).

She really specializes in Calfironian tournaments and indoor tournaments. Many titles and finals.

Kelly
Sep 24th, 2005, 03:40 PM
98 % of the world's population would prefer Graf's career.

98% of the world's population dont give a damn....

yes you like steffi....i like lindsay....someone else likes serena etc etc....why do you feel the need to contantly degrade other players achievments??

VeeReeDavJCap81
Sep 24th, 2005, 04:22 PM
:retard:

lindsayno1
Sep 24th, 2005, 04:28 PM
well said kelly

Jakeev
Sep 27th, 2005, 07:23 PM
Actually she won 7 (outdoor) hard-court tournaments in 1991-1997. But had 33 losses on that surface too.
So Lindsay has won 24 and lost 83.

BTW, do you want me to mail you the Graf career injury list? What do you think Graf would have been able to achieve without those tons of injuries?
She missed 7 slams due to injury in the 90ies. She most probably would have won AO 95 and/or 96 if she hadn't been sidelined due to injury. And that would have given her a second or even third Grand Slam.
Without her terrible knee injury her career most probably would not have virtually ended in 1997 (at age 27). If Graf had had a relatively injury-free career as both Navi or Evert have had she would have about 30 slams under her belt today.

If you read my post I said that Lindsay's record is not to shabby even if she did not have Graf-like numbers. Like somebody else said, nobody is claiming she is better than Graf so no really sure why in this particular thread you are trying to discount Lindsay's successes.

Be obessive about Graf all you want, but at least be responsible enough not to downplay other player records just because they don't meet your Graf-like criteria.

Orion
Sep 27th, 2005, 08:04 PM
...And although she is "gone" since 6 years the video/DVD technology allows to recreate her graceful style of tennis again and again. Same with Beethoven symphonies and Hopper paintings - they were made long ago but remain art even today...

I will agree that a performance by a great tennis player is very graceful, but it is hardly a work of art. Steffi comes about as close to art as you can, but Hopper? Beethoven?? Come on! ;)
I'm just giving you a hard time, my college minor was in Art.

On another note, there is little use in anyone disputing the fact that Steffi had the best record of any player in the open era. The context of that record is what others will dispute, what with Seles out for much of Graf's career. I tend to agree that you can only defeat your competition, and Graf cannot be held accountable, but I sure wish we could have seen that rivalry intensify. It could have been better than Evert-Navratilova. Ah well.

I think what posters like that Davenport fanatic tend to think is in terms of the past few years that they have followed tennis. If anyone here can remember far enough back, Graf, Seles, Navratilova, Evert, even Austin prepared for the hardcourt season and had stellar results that would easily eclipse Lindsay's. That's more a reflection on Lindsay's state (with injuries and sustaining momentum at 6'3'') than her game itself. Her game seems tailor made for hardcourts, rather like Graf's for all surfaces, or Evert's for clay.

Happy posting, everyone!

-Sonic-
Sep 27th, 2005, 08:36 PM
As some people still maintain that Lindsay Davenport is one of the greatest hard-court players of the open era it is quite interesting to analyse her success on this surface (out-door events only) year-by-year.

She IS ONE OF THE greatest on that surface. So what if others have better records. If people maintain that she is "one of the best" and not "the very best" then they are 100% correct aren't they?

You managed to pull 1 quote there from a devoted fan. Big wows. I honestly believe that people wouldn't put Lindsay over Steffi in terms of any kind of greatness. Your insistance of tearing others down to build Steffi up is just tiresome. People can see the stats, they can see the results, they can see the head to heads. If people are new to tennis, they may not know it at first, but they'll find out eventually. Steffi's got the results, she doesn't NEED you to tear others down further. Give it up!

If you like tennis, then watch it and enjoy. If you think its crap now Steffi's retired, then a) thats your opinion only and b) stop watching. We are enjoying it at the moment. We probably enjoyed it back then as well. Stop trying to make people not enjoy it. You're such a cock!

TeamUSA#1
Sep 27th, 2005, 08:40 PM
I love Steffi Graf, but give it a rest already... As Sonic said, "Your insistance of tearing others down to build Steffi up is just tiresome!"

Jakeev
Sep 27th, 2005, 09:49 PM
[QUOTE=Calimero377]Actually she won 7 (outdoor) hard-court tournaments in 1991-1997. QUOTE]

No, only 5.

94 Brisbane
96 Olympics and L.A.
97 Indian Wells and Atlanta

bandabou
Sep 27th, 2005, 10:04 PM
Lay off Shakira....I think Cali doesn´t grasp that everybody likes different things. Even in art: some like Da Vinci, some prefer Rembrandt, some prefer van Gogh....which is better? All good in their own right....seem with Mozart and Beethoven.

Graf is one of the greatest ever....stats don´t lie. No player will probably ever match her stats. So what? Does that mean one isn´t allowed to be fan of a player not-named Graf? Some Grafanatic can´t grasp that logic...it is like they just love to flaunting how great their beloved Graf and in the same token how inferior today´s players are. We KNOW that already...doesn´t mean we shouldn´t be allowed to be fans.

Calimero377
Sep 27th, 2005, 10:49 PM
If you read my post I said that Lindsay's record is not to shabby even if she did not have Graf-like numbers. Like somebody else said, nobody is claiming she is better than Graf so no really sure why in this particular thread you are trying to discount Lindsay's successes.
....


Nobody?

"Queenlindsay" says:

"No one took hardcourt season like Lindsay does!!!
twice in her career she swipe all hardcourts before US Open winning 4 titles in 4 weeks('98 and 2004).

Lindsay also took slams indoor season, sweeping fall season with 3 or titles in as much weeks.

Best Hardcourt player:

1. Lindsay Davenport

Best Indoor player:

1. Lindsay Davenport"


Obviously someone said it ....

Calimero377
Sep 27th, 2005, 10:56 PM
....
You managed to pull 1 quote there from a devoted fan. ...

Quite an achivement, isn't it?

... Give it up! ....

Never ever .... :p

...
If you like tennis, then watch it and enjoy. If you think its crap now Steffi's retired, then a) thats your opinion only and b) stop watching. We are enjoying it at the moment. We probably enjoyed it back then as well. Stop trying to make people not enjoy it. ...


I enjoy Mariah Carey.

But I know the difference between her and Beethoven ....


:wavey:

Calimero377
Sep 27th, 2005, 11:06 PM
[QUOTE=Calimero377]Actually she won 7 (outdoor) hard-court tournaments in 1991-1997. QUOTE]

No, only 5.

94 Brisbane
96 Olympics and L.A.
97 Indian Wells and Atlanta


How embarrassing .... :eek:

Calimero377
Sep 27th, 2005, 11:09 PM
Lay off Shakira....I think Cali doesn´t grasp that everybody likes different things. Even in art: some like Da Vinci, some prefer Rembrandt, some prefer van Gogh....which is better? All good in their own right....seem with Mozart and Beethoven.

Graf is one of the greatest ever....stats don´t lie. No player will probably ever match her stats. So what? Does that mean one isn´t allowed to be fan of a player not-named Graf? Some Grafanatic can´t grasp that logic...it is like they just love to flaunting how great their beloved Graf and in the same token how inferior today´s players are. We KNOW that already...doesn´t mean we shouldn´t be allowed to be fans.


Hey, I'm a fan of Borussia Mönchengladbach.

But I would never claim that the current Borussia team is stronger than Manchester United of 1999. Although "the game has moved on" in the last 6 years.

bandabou
Sep 27th, 2005, 11:39 PM
Hey, I'm a fan of Borussia Mönchengladbach.

But I would never claim that the current Borussia team is stronger than Manchester United of 1999. Although "the game has moved on" in the last 6 years.

On paper...but remember that matches aren´t won on paper. Otherwise Holland would´ve won the World Cup in 1974, no? :shrug:

I know what you mean. I guess when people talk about raising the bar and stuff, that bugs you? It sounds like players are better now than in the past? Hmmm.....sometimes people get carried away I guess.

Buitenzorg
Sep 27th, 2005, 11:42 PM
Lindsay :)

jacs
Sep 28th, 2005, 04:22 AM
As some people still maintain that Lindsay Davenport is one of the greatest hard-court players of the open era it is quite interesting to analyse her success on this surface (out-door events only) year-by-year.


Until 1997 it is abysmal - let's cover this time with mercy .....

1998:
wins Stanford (vs. Venus), San Diego (vs. Pierce), Manhattan Beach (vs. Hingis), USO (vs. Hingis)
loses Sydney (vs.Serena), AO (vs. Martinez), Oklahoma (vs. Venus), Indian Wells (Hingis), Key Biscayne (Kournikova), New Haven (Graf).
4 tournament wins, 6 losses. Not bad.

1999:
wins Sydney (vs. Hingis), Stanford (vs. Venus)
loses AO (vs. Momo), Indian Wells (vs. Serena), Key Biscayne (Graf, w.o.), San Diego (vs. Venus), Manhattan Beach (vs. Halard), New Haven (vs. Venus), USO (vs.Serena)
2 tournament wins, 7 losses (one w.o.). Mediocre.

2000:
wins AO (vs. Hingis), Indian Wells (vs. Hingis)
loses Sydney (vs. Momo), Miami (vs. Hingis), Stanford (vs. Hingis), Stanford (vs. Venus), San Diego (vs. Kournikova), Los Angeles (vs. Serena), Canadian Open (vs. Maleeva), USO (vs. Venus)
2 tournament wins, 8 losses. Mediocre (AO though).

2001:
wins Scottsdale (vs. Shaughessy), Los Angeles (vs. Seles)
loses Sydney (vs. Hingis), AO (vs. Capriati), Indian Wells (vs. Serena), Miami (vs. Demented), Stanford (vs. Clijsters), San Diego (vs. Venus), New Haven (vs. Venus), USO (vs. Serena)
2 tournament wins, 8 losses. Mediocre.

2002:
wins zero
loses Stanford (vs. Clijsters), San Diego (vs. Venus), Los Angeles (vs. Rubin), New Haven (vs. Venus), USO (vs. Serena)
zero tournament wins, 5 losses. Embarrassing.

2003:
wins zero
loses Sydney (vs. Clijsters), AO (vs. Enna), Scottsdale (vs. Sugiyama), Indian Wells (vs. Clijsters), Miami (vs. Bartoli), San Diego (vs. Clijsters), Los Angeles (vs. Clijsters), New Haven (vs. Capriati), USO (vs. Clijsters).
zero tournament wins, 9 losses. Beyond embarrassing.

2004:
wins Stanford (vs. Venus), Los Angeles (vs. Serena), San Diego (vs. Myskina), Cincinnati (vs. Zvonareva)
loses AO (vs. Enna), Indian Wells (vs. Enna), USO (vs. Kuzzy)
4 tournament wins, 3 losses. Not bad (no slam though).

2005:
wins Dubai (vs. Jankovic), New Haven (vs. Momo), Bali (vs. Schiavone)
loses AO (vs. Serena), Indian Wells (vs. Clijsters), Stanford (vs. ALG), USO (vs. Demented)
3 tournament wins, 4 losses. Mediocre.


From 1998-2005 Davenport has won 17 hard-court tournaments. And lost at 50.
17-50.

Graf has won 37 hard-court tournaments in 1986-96. And lost at 18.
37-18.

17-50 or 37-18 - what is better?


:lol:



Somewhere in southern california, Lindsay is so not caring right now.


I find really funny how some people brandish their opinions as if there are facts. And all this "blah-blah-blah -- beyond embarassing" crap is just :rolleyes: I call it "the-wannabe-Simon-Cowell" syndrome. Everyone wants to be the authority, the one who gets to say what and what does not suck. Well, what-ev.

And you know what, I'm willing to bet that Steffi doesn't give a frig either.