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calabar
Sep 22nd, 2005, 05:52 PM
.......have been tennis' most competitive triumvirate...(it could be argued) at least within the past 8-10 years.

Venus and Davenport have a career 27-match (the highest among active players) h2h competition with Linsday leading with a 14-13 majority.
Davenport's second longest h2h match record (24) is against Hingis where she enjoys a 14-10 advantage.

Venus' second longest career h2h is 19 against Hingis, where she is trailing (and likely to remain that way) 9-10. Her third longest is 14 against Serena where they are tied 7-7.

In the case of Hingis, her longest career h2h was 24 against Davenport where she is trailing 10-14, her second longest is 20 against 2 players (Arantha Sanchez, 18-2 and Monica Seles 15-5) and her third longest at 19 is against Venus whe she maintains a 10-9 edge.

Serena's most competitive h2h career is against Capriati where she enjoys a 10-7 edge. 12 of those 17 matches went to 3 sets.

So there you have it.

Veenut
Sep 22nd, 2005, 06:47 PM
Interesting!!! Even though Lindsay presently enjoys an edge in the H2H I know she would have preferred Venus' "huge" edge and that is 3-0 in Slam finals!!! Did Hinges and Venus ever meet on grass?

cartmancop
Sep 22nd, 2005, 06:49 PM
I think Venus beat Hingis on the way to Wimbledon 2000.

Pureracket
Sep 22nd, 2005, 06:54 PM
quarterfinal @ Wimbledon(=).

Infiniti2001
Sep 22nd, 2005, 06:58 PM
quarterfinal @ Wimbledon(=).

Yeah, one of the many reason Miss deja entendu can't stand Miss Venus Williams :haha:

TomTennis
Sep 22nd, 2005, 06:58 PM
Interesting!!! Even though Lindsay presently enjoys an edge in the H2H I know she would have preferred Venus' "huge" edge and that is 3-0 in Slam finals!!! Did Hinges and Venus ever meet on grass?

yes, Vee won 6-3 3-6 6-4 against Hingis in the Wimby 2000 quaters!

Anyway, i know by the time their careers are over Venus will be leading Davenport!!! :bounce:

Geisha
Sep 22nd, 2005, 07:09 PM
yes, Vee won 6-3 3-6 6-4 against Hingis in the Wimby 2000 quaters!

Anyway, i know by the time their careers are over Venus will be leading Davenport!!! :bounce:

6-3, 4-6, 6-4

Come on guys, facts straight!

deja_entendu
Sep 22nd, 2005, 07:17 PM
Yeah, one of the many reason Miss deja entendu can't stand Miss Venus Williams :haha:

Always on your mind I see :kiss: But anyway, Hingis should be congratulated -- playing her worst tennis on her least favorite surface and nearly defeating fast-court specialist Venus Williams :eek:

:bowdown: Martina! :bowdown:

But anyway, 14-10 for Dav -- Hingis? I know one of those must include the 2-1 retirement victory, and I thought it was otherwise 13-11? Hm.

Infiniti2001
Sep 22nd, 2005, 07:21 PM
Always on your mind I see :kiss: But anyway, Hingis should be congratulated -- playing her worst tennis on her least favorite surface and nearly defeating fast-court specialist Venus Williams :eek:

:bowdown: Martina! :bowdown:

But anyway, 14-10 for Dav -- Hingis? I know one of those must include the 2-1 retirement victory, and I thought it was otherwise 13-11? Hm.


If that's the way you see it :haha:

TonyP
Sep 22nd, 2005, 08:36 PM
It does include that match, but Lindsay was in many ways Martina's toughest competitor, aside from Graf and most of Graf's victories over Hingis were before 1997.


But what is truly amazing is that Venus and Serena met only 14 times since they came on the tour, when, the mid-90s? Why, if they were so dominant, did they fail to wind up in tons of finals, the way Chris and Martina did.

Or even Martina and Lindsay. In 2000, maybe their most competitive year, Hingis and Davenport faced off in the finals of five tournaments, the Australian Open, Indian Wells, Miami, Zurich and Philadelphia. That is a rivalry!

Why so few Williams sisters face off over nearly 10 years of competition?

Did the Willies intentionally duck one another?

Timariot
Sep 22nd, 2005, 08:43 PM
Yes, Venus-Hingis-Davenport made a great three-way rivalry for couple of years. And you know what made that special, compared to most of todays 'rivalries'? They actually played GOOD MATCHES.

JenJen-Serena is pretty much only comparable combination of the recent years.

Timariot
Sep 22nd, 2005, 08:45 PM
Did the Willies intentionally duck one another?

Yes, they seldom played at same events, except really important ones. Besides, they were injured a lot and Serena in general played very sparse schedule.

Lindsayfan32
Sep 22nd, 2005, 09:14 PM
yes, Vee won 6-3 3-6 6-4 against Hingis in the Wimby 2000 quaters!

Anyway, i know by the time their careers are over Venus will be leading Davenport!!! :bounce:

Don't be so sure of that. Remember Wimbledon 05. She only just won. Venus was beaten by Lindsay 4 times in a row before that. I wouldn't be so cocky if I was you.

Infiniti2001
Sep 22nd, 2005, 09:16 PM
It does include that match, but Lindsay was in many ways Martina's toughest competitor, aside from Graf and most of Graf's victories over Hingis were before 1997.


But what is truly amazing is that Venus and Serena met only 14 times since they came on the tour, when, the mid-90s? Why, if they were so dominant, did they fail to wind up in tons of finals, the way Chris and Martina did.

Or even Martina and Lindsay. In 2000, maybe their most competitive year, Hingis and Davenport faced off in the finals of five tournaments, the Australian Open, Indian Wells, Miami, Zurich and Philadelphia. That is a rivalry!

Why so few Williams sisters face off over nearly 10 years of competition?

Did the Willies intentionally duck one another?

You can spin anything any way you want by massaging time periods, people peaking (or being injured) at different times, etc etc. Oh, Hingis was no way one of the "most competitive" players of the last ten years. :tape: Anyway, do you realize how silly you look finding fault and nitpicking the Wiiliames to death ?? You're also conveniently omitting the fact that Venus was out with wrist tendinitis the first few months of 2000. :lol:

Infiniti2001
Sep 22nd, 2005, 09:17 PM
Don't be so sure of that. Remember Wimbledon 05. She only just won. Venus was beaten by Lindsay 4 times in a row before that. I wouldn't be so cocky if I was you.

and before those 4 times Lindsay was practically Vee's bitch, so what's your point?? :shrug:

deja_entendu
Sep 22nd, 2005, 09:20 PM
infiniti so defensive... because his fave is the one with losing records to the other two? :shrug:

Infiniti2001
Sep 22nd, 2005, 09:22 PM
infiniti so defensive... because his fave is the one with losing records to the other two? :shrug:

Not at all , at least my fav is still playing, and she has every opportunity to even the score with Lindsay :p

For the last time infiniti is all woman :devil:

!<blocparty>!
Sep 22nd, 2005, 09:29 PM
Interesting facts :) I thought Hingis had a losing H2H against both Williams sisters.

TomTennis
Sep 22nd, 2005, 09:29 PM
and before those 4 times Lindsay was practically Vee's bitch, so what's your point?? :shrug:

excatly!

anyway, i think both are great players and very good, but i just feel that when Venus is on her game, she is better thatn a Lindsay that is on her game!

!<blocparty>!
Sep 22nd, 2005, 09:33 PM
excatly!

anyway, i think both are great players and very good, but i just feel that when Venus is on her game, she is better thatn a Lindsay that is on her game!

Hehehe. We could argue all night about THAT :P ;)

Timariot
Sep 22nd, 2005, 09:35 PM
You can spin anything any way you want by massaging time periods, people peaking (or being injured) at different times, etc etc. Oh, Hingis was no way one of the "most competitive" players of the last ten years.

So who are?

new-york
Sep 22nd, 2005, 09:36 PM
i love Lindsay-Venus matches.

TomTennis
Sep 22nd, 2005, 09:39 PM
Hehehe. We could argue all night about THAT :P ;)

i know! lolol.

But they are provided some BRILLIANT matches though! im sure we could agree on that! :wavey:

Dawn Marie
Sep 22nd, 2005, 09:53 PM
Great, and what is still amazing is that Venus and Lindsay and Serena are still great competitors who are winning titles and slams.:)

What is Jen's head to head vrs Serena and Venus? How many matches have they played?

Venusfan4EvEr
Sep 22nd, 2005, 10:00 PM
and before those 4 times Lindsay was practically Vee's bitch, so what's your point?? :shrug:


:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: true though

QUEENLINDSAY
Sep 23rd, 2005, 12:16 AM
:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: true though

and before that infiniti? Did'nt Lindsay kick her ass in the beginning? Then venus bounced back and kick her ass at mid 2000? then Lindsay came back Kick her ass again and beat her 4 times in a row until Venus won "luckily" the wimby 2005?

As much as I want to get out of this kind of thread, I need to shut-up these posters.

QUEENLINDSAY
Sep 23rd, 2005, 12:17 AM
Hehehe. We could argue all night about THAT :P ;)

Count me in!

Infiniti2001
Sep 23rd, 2005, 12:19 AM
and before that infiniti? Did'nt Lindsay kick her ass in the beginning? Then venus bounced back and kick her ass at mid 2000? then Lindsay came back Kick her ass again and beat her 4 times in a row until Venus won "luckily" the wimby 2005?

As much as I want to get out of this kind of thread, I need to shut-up these posters.


Luckily?? :haha: You seriously need to watch your tape again. :rolleyes:

Dawn Marie
Sep 23rd, 2005, 12:22 AM
and before that infiniti? Did'nt Lindsay kick her ass in the beginning? Then venus bounced back and kick her ass at mid 2000? then Lindsay came back Kick her ass again and beat her 4 times in a row until Venus won "luckily" the wimby 2005?

As much as I want to get out of this kind of thread, I need to shut-up these posters.

Lindsay didn't see it as LUCK, but rather Venus's skill. She just wanted it more. :) . The match was wonderful and I praise Lindsay for coming back and competing after that match, but Venus won it based on competitive play and not luck. Someone had to win and someone had to lose that wonderful match.

Don't worry I think Lindsay will win one more slam before she retires. (then again I have a feeling that she may retire this year) I sure hope not, she still has game in her but it can be hard coming back after injuries.

Venusfan4EvEr
Sep 23rd, 2005, 12:22 AM
i wouldnt say venus luckily beat davenport....she kicked lindays butt by staying in the match and being the much better athlete until lindsay was out of it and back gave out venus had enough to jump for about 40 more minutes

QUEENLINDSAY
Sep 23rd, 2005, 12:31 AM
Lindsay didn't see it as LUCK, but rather Venus's skill. She just wanted it more. :) . The match was wonderful and I praise Lindsay for coming back and competing after that match, but Venus won it based on competitive play and not luck. Someone had to win and someone had to lose that wonderful match.

Don't worry I think Lindsay will win one more slam before she retires. (then again I have a feeling that she may retire this year) I sure hope not, she still has game in her but it can be hard coming back after injuries.

I agree with you, Lindsay lose it because she gave up and not because the player on the other side of the net is better. maybe a better competitor but not gamewise. Lindsay was serving for the match and its very unlikely of her caliber, even Venus caliber not to capitalize on it. My point is for a player in their status and being one of the best servers on tour serving for one championships and can't hold serve is a "badluck" and a "good luck" for the receiver. Man Lindsay is holding serve more than 85% of the times in her career.

But going back to topic and I dont intend to dissed any player, Which I'm proud I did'nt do, even when Venus ass was kicked the last 4 times. I'm very happy for the wonderful match Lindsay is giving me competing with the Likes of Hingis and Venus and I'm very proud as a fan for her to keep her lead over them.

Infiniti2001
Sep 23rd, 2005, 12:33 AM
I agree with you, Lindsay lose it because she gave up and not because the player on the other side of the net is better. maybe a better competitor but not gamewise. Lindsay was serving for the match and its very unlikely of her caliber, even Venus caliber not to capitalize on it. My point is for a player in their status and being one of the best servers on tour serving for one championships and can't hold serve is a "badluck" and a "good luck" for the receiver. Man Lindsay is holding serve more than 85% of the times in her career.

But going back to topic and I dont intend to dissed any player, Which I'm proud I did'nt do, even when Venus ass was kicked the last 4 times. I'm very happy for the wonderful match Lindsay is giving me competing with the Likes of Hingis and Venus and I'm very proud as a fan for her to keep her lead over them.

:retard: I shall upload the part of the match where Lindsay served for the match, and tell me if Venus was lucky :rolleyes:

Venusfan4EvEr
Sep 23rd, 2005, 12:36 AM
when davenport was serving for the match at 5-4 in the second venus broke her by hitting 4 winners! its not bad luck that she didnt hold...venus just played excellent returning. Venus was the better player that day and davenport didnt give up, You dont give up in a grand slam final, ask lindsay ...she'll tell you, she played some of her best tennis, venus was too good, and the better play one

feed on that u ignorant biatch

QUEENLINDSAY
Sep 23rd, 2005, 12:36 AM
:retard:

Thanks for shutting up!

Stamp Paid
Sep 23rd, 2005, 12:43 AM
Interesting facts :) I thought Hingis had a losing H2H against both Williams sisters.

Nope, just Serena.

Who bageled her twice. :drool:

Venusfan4EvEr
Sep 23rd, 2005, 12:43 AM
you tell em infiniti!!!

hingis-seles
Sep 23rd, 2005, 01:56 AM
Just to correct you, Martina Hingis leads Venus Williams 10-8 in the head-to-head. Their Grand Slam Cup meeting does not count because it was an exhibition event with no ranking points and is not included in any of the other head-to-heads. You can check the ITF website to verify:

http://www.itftennis.com/womens/players/headtohead.asp?player=20004552&opponent=20005009

:)

Interesting to note, that Martina dished out 3 bagels to Venus (1997, 1998, 1999); and this not including the 6-1, 6-1 loss in Melbourne in 2001. :angel:

hingis-seles
Sep 23rd, 2005, 01:57 AM
Nope, just Serena.

Who bageled her twice. :drool:

Wasn't one of those a loss in the Canadian Open final? I believe the year was 2000 and it was one of Miss Hingis' 9 titles for the season. :)

deja_entendu
Sep 23rd, 2005, 02:05 AM
Just to correct you, Martina Hingis leads Venus Williams 10-8 in the head-to-head. Their Grand Slam Cup meeting does not count because it was an exhibition event with no ranking points and is not included in any of the other head-to-heads. You can check the ITF website to verify:

http://www.itftennis.com/womens/players/headtohead.asp?player=20004552&opponent=20005009

:)

Interesting to note, that Martina dished out 3 bagels to Venus (1997, 1998, 1999); and this not including the 6-1, 6-1 loss in Melbourne in 2001. :angel:

One of those bagels in the US Open FINAL! :tape: Coupled with the Australian demolition, and other victories at RG and New York, Hingis led Venus 4-2 in Grand Slams, with both losses being rather poor quality chokes from the Swiss Miss (to think it could be 6 to 0! ... another bagel!)

:worship: Martina :bowdown:

RenaSlam.
Sep 23rd, 2005, 02:07 AM
One of those bagels in the US Open FINAL! :tape: Coupled with the Australian demolition, and other victories at RG and New York, Hingis led Venus 4-2 in Grand Slams, with both losses being rather poor quality chokes from the Swiss Miss (to think it could be 6 to 0! ... another bagel!)

:worship: Martina :bowdown:

That's excellent!

But Venus was a better player. :) :bounce: :bounce:

Knizzle
Sep 23rd, 2005, 02:07 AM
Just to correct you, Martina Hingis leads Venus Williams 10-8 in the head-to-head. Their Grand Slam Cup meeting does not count because it was an exhibition event with no ranking points and is not included in any of the other head-to-heads. You can check the ITF website to verify:

http://www.itftennis.com/womens/players/headtohead.asp?player=20004552&opponent=20005009

:)

Interesting to note, that Martina dished out 3 bagels to Venus (1997, 1998, 1999); and this not including the 6-1, 6-1 loss in Melbourne in 2001. :angel:

It was a WTA event so the H2H is 10-9.

Venusfan4EvEr
Sep 23rd, 2005, 02:08 AM
oh here we go....people cant let some things goo

Knizzle
Sep 23rd, 2005, 02:10 AM
One of those bagels in the US Open FINAL! :tape: Coupled with the Australian demolition, and other victories at RG and New York, Hingis led Venus 4-2 in Grand Slams, with both losses being rather poor quality chokes from the Swiss Miss (to think it could be 6 to 0! ... another bagel!)

:worship: Martina :bowdown:

Poor deja.

deja_entendu
Sep 23rd, 2005, 02:15 AM
It was a WTA event so the H2H is 10-9.

poor knizzle.

unrelated: anyone remember when 'izzle' was clever, funny, or culturally relevant? :confused: no?

Knizzle
Sep 23rd, 2005, 02:17 AM
poor knizzle.

unrelated: anyone remember when 'izzle' was clever, funny, or culturally relevant? :confused: no?

I don't CHANGE my name every five minutes like you. I don't have anything to hide. Why would 'izzle' be cuturally relevant to YOU?? Sissy. :)

Venusfan4EvEr
Sep 23rd, 2005, 02:24 AM
h2h is 10-9 i dont see why you care so much about one match she still leads the h2h and that will prob never change unless she comes back and has to face Venus in which she would be anniahlated so in mean time get along with williams fans. and stop trying to sound so damn smart....-culturally relevant- just shutup....

Stamp Paid
Sep 23rd, 2005, 02:24 AM
Wasn't one of those a loss in the Canadian Open final? I believe the year was 2000 and it was one of Miss Hingis' 9 titles for the season. :)

Yes, you are correct, when Serena had to retire from that match in the third set (she was down 0-3, of course though :angel: )

Knizzle
Sep 23rd, 2005, 02:30 AM
and stop trying to sound so damn smart....-culturally relevant- just shutup....

The sad thing is that this is like the 10th time he has tried to clown the 'izzle' in my name saying it's old or whatever, but it never catches on. No one cosigns for him so he has to just disappear.

Venusfan4EvEr
Sep 23rd, 2005, 02:33 AM
:bigclap: :lol:

QUEENLINDSAY
Sep 23rd, 2005, 02:38 AM
I dont understand why Lindsay-Hingis rivalry can be discuss without calling names to posters and discussing Williams vs any players rivalry always resulting into nonsense arguments.

I for one will say, Lindsay, Venus and Hingis brought out one of the best rivalries in tennis. Almost all of them in contrasting style. A better mover, a better striker, and a better placer of the ball. No one can claim who's better no matter what the H-H says. The fact is, all their matches we have no clue who's gonna win!

Thanks to all the ladies.

Venusfan4EvEr
Sep 23rd, 2005, 02:39 AM
bout time you said something encouraging to venus haha. although i do completely agree with your post

VeeReeDavJCap81
Sep 23rd, 2005, 05:31 AM
I agree with you, Lindsay lose it because she gave up and not because the player on the other side of the net is better. maybe a better competitor but not gamewise. Lindsay was serving for the match and its very unlikely of her caliber, even Venus caliber not to capitalize on it. My point is for a player in their status and being one of the best servers on tour serving for one championships and can't hold serve is a "badluck" and a "good luck" for the receiver. Man Lindsay is holding serve more than 85% of the times in her career.

But going back to topic and I dont intend to dissed any player, Which I'm proud I did'nt do, even when Venus ass was kicked the last 4 times. I'm very happy for the wonderful match Lindsay is giving me competing with the Likes of Hingis and Venus and I'm very proud as a fan for her to keep her lead over them.

Ummmmm.....even Lindsay admitted that Venus just played better when it counted. That game where Lindsay was serving up 6-5 Venus hit 3 winners in a row, before Lindsay hit a shot long giving Venus the game. You cannot tell me Venus was lucky in this match, Lindsay played as hard as she could and Venus hung in there and won the match. This match was totally different from the AO final where Lindsay completely gave up in the 3rd set, Lindsay did not give up in in the Wimbledon final...and it was a brave performance from both ladies.

hingis-seles
Sep 23rd, 2005, 08:39 AM
It was a WTA event so the H2H is 10-9.

It wasn't a WTA event. The men had been playing the Compaq Grand Slam Cup since 1990 and the women were first invited in 1998. Only the best 8 performers in the Grand Slam events could play. It handed out the biggest payday in tennis. It was just a lucrative exhibition. If it was a WTA event, why were there no ranking points for it? Why did the WTA threaten to fine it's players who skipped other low tier events to play in the Grand Slam Cup (Novotna who had a title to defend in Leipzig)?

It's an exhibition which the women played for only two years. The ITF doesn't count it. That's all that matters.

10-8 Miss Hingis.

hingis-seles
Sep 23rd, 2005, 08:39 AM
Yes, you are correct, when Serena had to retire from that match in the third set (she was down 0-3, of course though :angel: )

I remember that first set, ending in something like 10 minutes, and I was like "Oh fuck!" :p :lol:

dukeblue5
Sep 23rd, 2005, 08:48 AM
One of those bagels in the US Open FINAL! :tape: Coupled with the Australian demolition, and other victories at RG and New York, Hingis led Venus 4-2 in Grand Slams, with both losses being rather poor quality chokes from the Swiss Miss (to this could be 6 to 0! ... another bagel!)

:worship: Martina :bowdown:


Yeah one of those bagels came in the 1997 US Open Final, when Hingis was #1 and Venus was like barely top 20 if even that? :rolleyes:

hingis-seles
Sep 23rd, 2005, 09:09 AM
1997 US Open final:

Hingis: #1

V.Williams: #66

Leo_DFP
Sep 23rd, 2005, 10:01 AM
Interesting!!! Even though Lindsay presently enjoys an edge in the H2H I know she would have preferred Venus' "huge" edge and that is 3-0 in Slam finals!!! Did Hinges and Venus ever meet on grass?

Venus beating Hingis on grass at Wimbledon was her career breakthrough!

Anyway, one cannot ignore the achievements of Serena Williams or Justine Henin-Hardenne since 2002. They've had a huge impact on the game as well.

!<blocparty>!
Sep 23rd, 2005, 10:53 AM
Ummmmm.....even Lindsay admitted that Venus just played better when it counted. That game where Lindsay was serving up 6-5 Venus hit 3 winners in a row, before Lindsay hit a shot long giving Venus the game. You cannot tell me Venus was lucky in this match, Lindsay played as hard as she could and Venus hung in there and won the match. This match was totally different from the AO final where Lindsay completely gave up in the 3rd set, Lindsay did not give up in in the Wimbledon final...and it was a brave performance from both ladies.

Ummmmm..... but, Lindsay also said her back injury had nothing to do with the loss. K.

Venus did indeed play amazing tennis for a lot of important points. However, when Davenport was serving 4-2 in the final set, 40-15 up on serve, she hit like 4 errors to give Venus that game, not forced errors, errors. Even at break points in the third, I remember her tapping a weak second serve back in court. She didn't really GO for her shots when she was allowed to.

Knizzle
Sep 23rd, 2005, 04:22 PM
It wasn't a WTA event. The men had been playing the Compaq Grand Slam Cup since 1990 and the women were first invited in 1998. Only the best 8 performers in the Grand Slam events could play. It handed out the biggest payday in tennis. It was just a lucrative exhibition. If it was a WTA event, why were there no ranking points for it? Why did the WTA threaten to fine it's players who skipped other low tier events to play in the Grand Slam Cup (Novotna who had a title to defend in Leipzig)?

It's an exhibition which the women played for only two years. The ITF doesn't count it. That's all that matters.

10-8 Miss Hingis.

The WTA recognizes it as a WTA event, it gets counted in the # of WTA titles a player has, and the H2H goes down in the official WTA head to head. What other "exhibition" do you know that gets counted in official H2H and # of WTA titles won?? The WTA H2H is 10-9. Who cares what the ITF didn't count, they only have jurisdiction over the slams. I didn't make this up, it's as plain as day on the WTA's website. How can you discount what the WTA counts just because the ITF doesn't count it?? The H2H has been 10-9 for years, but now all of a sudden everyone wants to say it's 10-8??

Brooks.
Sep 23rd, 2005, 04:29 PM
It wasn't a WTA event. The men had been playing the Compaq Grand Slam Cup since 1990 and the women were first invited in 1998. Only the best 8 performers in the Grand Slam events could play. It handed out the biggest payday in tennis. It was just a lucrative exhibition. If it was a WTA event, why were there no ranking points for it? Why did the WTA threaten to fine it's players who skipped other low tier events to play in the Grand Slam Cup (Novotna who had a title to defend in Leipzig)?

It's an exhibition which the women played for only two years. The ITF doesn't count it. That's all that matters.

10-8 Miss Hingis.

if hingis felt it was important enough for her to show up.....and venus felt it was important enough for her to show up....and the score was 9-7 in the third..with a large payday on the line...well i guess your right...it doesnt matter :rolleyes: :tape:

Brooks.
Sep 23rd, 2005, 04:34 PM
The WTA recognizes it as a WTA event, it gets counted in the # of WTA titles a player has, and the H2H goes down in the official WTA head to head. What other "exhibition" do you know that gets counted in official H2H and # of WTA titles won?? The WTA H2H is 10-9. Who cares what the ITF didn't count, they only have jurisdiction over the slams. I didn't make this up, it's as plain as day on the WTA's website. How can you discount what the WTA counts just because the ITF doesn't count it?? The H2H has been 10-9 for years, but now all of a sudden everyone wants to say it's 10-8??

hingis fans are freaking out cuz they never expected venus to win another slam...it would be like the end of their world if venus' career were to surpass martina's...but unfortunately for them it is inevitable...venus will win at least one more slam and i am certain she will get more than 40 career titles....who really cares about some stupid h2h anyways...venus was the better player towards the end of it and had hingis not quit venus would be leading that h2h by now

Knizzle
Sep 23rd, 2005, 04:36 PM
hingis fans are freaking out cuz they never expected venus to win another slam...it would be like the end of their world if venus' career were to surpass martina's...but unfortunately for them it is inevitable...venus will win at least one more slam and i am certain she will get more than 40 career titles....who really cares about some stupid h2h anyways...venus was the better player towards the end of it and had hingis not quit venus would be leading that h2h by now

Truth.

GrandSlam05
Sep 23rd, 2005, 05:29 PM
Oh, so I guess Venus beating an injured Davenport 9-7 in the third is so impressive?

Veenut
Sep 23rd, 2005, 05:38 PM
hingis fans are freaking out cuz they never expected venus to win another slam...it would be like the end of their world if venus' career were to surpass martina's...but unfortunately for them it is inevitable...venus will win at least one more slam and i am certain she will get more than 40 career titles....who really cares about some stupid h2h anyways...venus was the better player towards the end of it and had hingis not quit venus would be leading that h2h by now

That pretty much sums up the Hinges fans who "hate" Venus. Why isn't Hinges on the tour now? I wonder what she is thinking when she watched the winners and top contenders for the major titles this year, having suffered injuries and setbacks but all worked their way through to the top again.

I mean Lindsay and Mary, 29 and 30 persevered through numerous injuries and were in 2 major finals each while she is only 25, therefore I don't buy the injury story. I think she is more afraid of injury to her ego than anything else. :)

BTW, thanks for the info on Wimbledon 2000. I don't recall seeing that match at all, must have been a very busy period for me then.

Infiniti2001
Sep 23rd, 2005, 05:40 PM
Oh, so I guess Venus beating an injured Davenport 9-7 in the third is so impressive?

You cannot be serious :haha:

MisterQ
Sep 23rd, 2005, 05:46 PM
Looking at those three names, I can't help thinking of this similarity: They all share the following: 2 or 3 years of grand slam triumphs, followed by repeated losses in Grand Slam Finals. Only Venus has been able to finally clear that hurdle (at Wimbledon this year). With all three of these players, one has the sense that they could easily have quite a few more major titles on their resume, had things gone just slightly differently.

Venus: 5 GS Final wins
6 GS Final losses

Hingis: 5 GS Final wins
7 GS Final losses

Davenport: 3 GS Final wins
4 GS Final losses

Veenut
Sep 23rd, 2005, 05:55 PM
1997 US Open final:

Hingis: #1

V.Williams: #66

Also of note, Venus had just barely closed her school books from high school to make her debut in the open, while Martina has been playing full time on the tour for some time. I think this is one of the main reasons why both Lindsay and Martina had such a big lead in Venus' early career, because she spent a majority of her time in school while the others are constantly playing.

Evidently, as soon as Venus started to play more, her results against them turned around. In retrospect I'm sure Venus is quite happy with the choices she has made balancing both her education and tennis because both are now "paying off" quite nicely. :D

This just reinforce the quote, "the race is not for the swift but for those who endure to the end". :angel:

Timariot
Sep 23rd, 2005, 05:56 PM
That pretty much sums up the Hinges fans who "hate" Venus. Why isn't Hinges on the tour now? I wonder what she is thinking when she watched the winners and top contenders for the major titles this year, having suffered injuries and setbacks but all worked their way through to the top again.

I mean Lindsay and Mary, 29 and 30 persevered through numerous injuries and were in 2 major finals each while she is only 25, therefore I don't buy the injury story. I think she is more afraid of injury to her ego than anything else. :)


Hingis was burned out, plain and simple. She played more matches than other top players, plus she did more promo works etc. than anyone else save maybe Kournikova.

Hingis was never afraid to play anyone, no elite player ever is, because deep down they truly always believe that they are the best and can beat anyone. Not even towards the end of her career when she was a shadow of herself.

GrandSlam05
Sep 23rd, 2005, 06:06 PM
Also of note, Venus had just barely closed her school books from high school to make her debut in the open, while Martina has been playing full time on the tour for some time. I think this is one of the main reasons why both Lindsay and Martina had such a big lead in Venus' early career, because she spent a majority of her time in school while the others are constantly playing.

Evidently, as soon as Venus started to play more, her results against them turned around. In retrospect I'm sure Venus is quite happy with the choices she has made balancing both her education and tennis because both are now "paying off" quite nicely. :D

This just reinforce the quote, "the race is not for the swift but for those who endure to the end". :angel:

More like, Venus is not as bright as Martina or Lindsay so she had to spend more time on the books. :lol: I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if Venus got held back a couple years. :lol:

Knizzle
Sep 23rd, 2005, 06:08 PM
More like, Venus is not as bright as Martina or Lindsay so she had to spend more time on the books. :lol: I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if Venus got held back a couple years. :lol:

Venus 5 GS titles . Lindsay 3 GS titles.

Venus 3-0 against Lindsay in GS finals. :)

Brooks.
Sep 23rd, 2005, 06:08 PM
More like, Venus is not as bright as Martina or Lindsay so she had to spend more time on the books. :lol: I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if Venus got held back a couple years. :lol:


:baby:

Veenut
Sep 23rd, 2005, 06:11 PM
Venus: 5 GS Final wins
6 GS Final losses

Hingis: 5 GS Final wins
7 GS Final losses

Davenport: 3 GS Final wins
4 GS Final losses

On closer examination 5 of Venus' loss was to Serena and all of Lindsay's was to a Williams. 3- Venus and 1-Serena.

With these facts, it is so mind boggling to me when some claim that the Williams' sisters have no talent and their wins are due to luck and a fluke. Its just hard to comprehend such warpped thinking.

Timariot
Sep 23rd, 2005, 06:11 PM
It was a WTA event so the H2H is 10-9.

Grand Slam Cup was an ITF event and carried no points, WTA had nothing to do with it (and Tours actually resented that event with a passion). That said, it is usually included in 'official' head-to-heads, just like Olympics, Fed/Davis Cup, World Team Cup...Hopman Cup, for some reason, apparently isn't.

Knizzle
Sep 23rd, 2005, 06:14 PM
Grand Slam Cup was an ITF event and carried no points, WTA had nothing to do with it (and Tours actually resented that event with a passion). That said, it is usually included in 'official' head-to-heads, just like Olympics, Fed/Davis Cup, World Team Cup...Hopman Cup, for some reason, apparently isn't.

For whatever reason the WTA claims that as being one of it's events. According to Hingis-Seles the ITF doesn't count that match in the H2H.

Venusfan4EvEr
Sep 23rd, 2005, 06:16 PM
i think some people are dumb as shit when it comes to this stuff....people such as Grandslam05 who i wouldnt surprised if he/she got held backed a couple years

Timariot
Sep 23rd, 2005, 06:18 PM
For whatever reason the WTA claims that as being one of it's events. According to Hingis-Seles the ITF doesn't count that match in the H2H.

WTA doesn't "claim" it as their event, they just recognize it as an 'official event', much like Fed Cup (WTA has nothing to do with Fed Cup either).

Bizarrely, ITF who held the GSC, does NOT count it in their match database.

Veenut
Sep 23rd, 2005, 06:20 PM
More like, Venus is not as bright as Martina or Lindsay so she had to spend more time on the books. :lol: I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if Venus got held back a couple years. :lol:

This post clearly demonstrate that you are not bright by any stretch, especially the hightlighted portions :confused:

In case you are not aware, Venus has defeated Lindsay 3 times in major finals and has 2 more majors than Lindsay and equate Martina's total. We won't even touch Venus' off court activities in comparison to the two, so explain Venus' set back a couple of years. Enquiring minds would like to know.

Knizzle
Sep 23rd, 2005, 06:20 PM
WTA doesn't "claim" it as their event, they just recognize it as an 'official event', much like Fed Cup (WTA has nothing to do with Fed Cup either).

Bizarrely, ITF who held the GSC, does NOT count it in their match database.

GRAND SLAM CUP See all GRAND SLAM CUP Results for WILLIAMS (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerActivity.asp?PlayerID=230220&TournamentID=998) WTA, TIER I, GERMANY, October 3, 1999, $2,450,000, HARD (I)
Draw: 8M/0Q/4D, Rank: , Seed/Entry: 4
Rnd Opponent Rank W/L Score Q H2H (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerHeadToHeadDetail.asp?PlayerID=230220&Player1ID=190349) SCHETT, BARBARA (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=190349)
W 6-3 6-4 S H2H (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerHeadToHeadDetail.asp?PlayerID=230220&Player1ID=80301) (1) HINGIS, MARTINA (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=80301)
W 6-2 6-7(6) 9-7 F H2H (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerHeadToHeadDetail.asp?PlayerID=230220&Player1ID=230234) (3) WILLIAMS, SERENA (http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?PlayerID=230234)
L 6-1 3-6 6-3 WTA Championship Pts: 0 WTA Ranking Pts.: 0

They even bothered to classify it as a Tier 1 WTA event.

Ryan
Sep 23rd, 2005, 06:27 PM
Ack, so much hatred!


As a devoted Hingis fan, I must say I always counted the GS Cup in the Hingis-Venus H2H. I think that all three of these players were the dominant trio of the late 90's, from 1997-2001. They had lots of great matches, and we should be praising their accomplishments in this thread, not dissing them. :worship:

Timariot
Sep 23rd, 2005, 06:29 PM
They even bothered to classify it as a Tier 1 WTA event.

Yes, weird, despite not giving any points from it. Might have something to do with bonus pool, or just a mistake. I checked ATP and they also list GSC, but only as GSC...

Venusfan4EvEr
Sep 23rd, 2005, 06:36 PM
lets jsut count it and move on...hingis still leads the h2h

Veenut
Sep 23rd, 2005, 06:51 PM
lets jsut count it and move on...hingis still leads the h2h

Agreed. This is of very little significance in the larger scheme of things, just as Serena's h2h lead over Hingis. The more significant point is Venus, Serena and Lindsay are still competing at a high level while Hingis is retired.

GrandSlam05
Sep 23rd, 2005, 07:04 PM
What, I never said Venus wasn't a great tennis player. I just said she probably wasn't very bright. And going by her comments after the Clijsters match at this year's US Open, I'm going to stick with my assumption.
I think it's silly to assume she wasn't winning majors in '97 just because of her schoolwork. Maybe she just wasn't ready to peak yet? Everyone peaks at different times. Hingis peaked young, IMO Davvy is at her peak these last couple of years, and IMO Venus was at her very, very best in '00.
And let's not blow on and on about Venus's "off court activities". It's alot easier to be more involved in these when you play ABOUT HALF AS MUCH as the other top players. What ever happened to commitment to the game?

deja_entendu
Sep 23rd, 2005, 07:11 PM
Hingis has been retired for years and Venus fans still have so much venom :tape: You can tell they so desperately want Venus to clear that hurdle of 5 Slams, and the clock is ticking... and ticking... and ticking... :lol:

No matter what though, Hingis has a slew of accomplishments Venus will never match -- including far more SKILLS to boot. Oh, and that 10-8 head-to-head is forever written in the books. It's like stab wounds for Venus fans :rolls:

Which is interesting, because Hingis fans have never held resentment for Serena for her winning head-to-head or more slams against Hingis. But when the situation is reversed, Venus fans are :bigcry: :banghead: :sad:

I actually think this is because Hingis significantly stalled Venus' slam-winning days, and therefore we have the simple fact that Serena > Venus. If it weren't for Martina, surely Venus would have more slams than her sibling rival... tough shit :p

Venusfan4EvEr
Sep 23rd, 2005, 07:32 PM
i think you have it the other way around, hingis fans cant accept that venus sent hingis crashing, and 10-9 is how the h2h goes down in the record books itf is like the only tennis site who has it like that, WTA is far more credible for woman's tennis than ITF. but this arguement is sooo stupid...andy im pretty sure venus will surpass hingis in the grand slams then u have no shit to talk about, and venus has plenty of records credited to herslef too, hingis has accomplished alot i give them both alot of credit, i alos think venus has a great chance to surpass her sister in g.s. but lets not think to far ahead

hingis-seles
Sep 24th, 2005, 02:39 PM
The WTA recognizes it as a WTA event, it gets counted in the # of WTA titles a player has, and the H2H goes down in the official WTA head to head. What other "exhibition" do you know that gets counted in official H2H and # of WTA titles won?? The WTA H2H is 10-9. Who cares what the ITF didn't count, they only have jurisdiction over the slams. I didn't make this up, it's as plain as day on the WTA's website. How can you discount what the WTA counts just because the ITF doesn't count it?? The H2H has been 10-9 for years, but now all of a sudden everyone wants to say it's 10-8??

I used to say it's 10-8 way back in the day. :p

What's the governing body of the sport? The one the WTA and ATP answer to? Yep, that's right. The ITF.

If it was a WTA event, why would the WTA threaten to fine Novotna for playing it? :confused:

hingis-seles
Sep 24th, 2005, 02:40 PM
For whatever reason the WTA claims that as being one of it's events. According to Hingis-Seles the ITF doesn't count that match in the H2H.

Not "according" to me, according to the ITF. I provided the link in one of my earlier posts. Go see for yourself.

hingis-seles
Sep 24th, 2005, 02:50 PM
Ok, a whole bunch of comments I want to address.

Venus was too inexperienced when she was playing Hingis at the US Open in 1997

I'm sorry, but that's no excuse. It just shows that at the time Hingis was by far the superior player and understandably so. Just like Monica lost 6-0, 6-1 to Steffi at her first Wimbledon (Graf was #1, coming off her Golden Grand Slam; Monica was 15 in her second GS event) no one's making excuses for her. Like Steffi, Martina was miles ahead at the time and that needs to be respected. Or even in the Venus-Martina scenario, Hingis was a shadow of her former self in 2002, playing on one leg in Hamburg, yet you don't see Hingis fans crying about it.

Davenport and Pierce overcame their injuries and continued; Hingis ran out

Each case is seperate. Hingis chooses not to play in pain and at a level below her best. It's her choice. She's given enough to this sport and it's fans. Memories to last a lifetime. Davenport and Pierce's injuries were different. Monica hasn't played since 2003. Did the Williamses run her out of the sport as well? :retard:

Some of you, denigrating Hingis, is just trashy. You go on and on about Hingis fans not letting go of records and stats, yet you're the ones making obnoxious comments about Hingis, years after her retirement. It's sickening that a player, who's career was cut short by injury, is being made fun of because of the circumstances in which her career ended. I find it ironic that some of you claim to think Hingis is lying and yet, you're the ones who stand up to defend Venus everytime she has to withdraw from an event. Do you ever hear me questioning her injury? Show some respect. I find it unfortunate that a wonderful young woman like Venus has such people in her fanbase. Then again, it's no different with any other fanbase for these players.

Martian KC
Sep 24th, 2005, 03:19 PM
What a horrid thread.

Brooks.
Sep 24th, 2005, 03:22 PM
Ok, a whole bunch of comments I want to address.

Venus was too inexperienced when she was playing Hingis at the US Open in 1997

I'm sorry, but that's no excuse. It just shows that at the time Hingis was by far the superior player and understandably so. Just like Monica lost 6-0, 6-1 to Steffi at her first Wimbledon (Graf was #1, coming off her Golden Grand Slam; Monica was 15 in her second GS event) no one's making excuses for her. Like Steffi, Martina was miles ahead at the time and that needs to be respected. Or even in the Venus-Martina scenario, Hingis was a shadow of her former self in 2002, playing on one leg in Hamburg, yet you don't see Hingis fans crying about it.

Davenport and Pierce overcame their injuries and continued; Hingis ran out

Each case is seperate. Hingis chooses not to play in pain and at a level below her best. It's her choice. She's given enough to this sport and it's fans. Memories to last a lifetime. Davenport and Pierce's injuries were different. Monica hasn't played since 2003. Did the Williamses run her out of the sport as well? :retard:

Some of you, denigrating Hingis, is just trashy. You go on and on about Hingis fans not letting go of records and stats, yet you're the ones making obnoxious comments about Hingis, years after her retirement. It's sickening that a player, who's career was cut short by injury, is being made fun of because of the circumstances in which her career ended. I find it ironic that some of you claim to think Hingis is lying and yet, you're the ones who stand up to defend Venus everytime she has to withdraw from an event. Do you ever hear me questioning her injury? Show some respect. I find it unfortunate that a wonderful young woman like Venus has such people in her fanbase. Then again, it's no different with any other fanbase for these players.

:yawn: look the reality of it is....venus is still playing for grand slam titles.....while hingis is busy with her world team tennis finals :tape: ....so you can hold onto the 97 us open final all you want....venus fans could care less :)

Infiniti2001
Sep 24th, 2005, 03:26 PM
Hingis fans were always crowing about how she was so totally uninjured all the time because of her superior style of tennis. I mean , she held #1 for years without a slam. It's just so interesting how conveniently that foot injury was timed :lol: They change stories so much you'd think they worked for the Bush administration.:tape:

VeeReeDavJCap81
Sep 24th, 2005, 03:30 PM
What, I never said Venus wasn't a great tennis player. I just said she probably wasn't very bright. And going by her comments after the Clijsters match at this year's US Open, I'm going to stick with my assumption.
What ever happened to commitment to the game?

According to THESE comments I will assume you're not very bright yourself.

Knizzle
Sep 24th, 2005, 03:40 PM
Ok, a whole bunch of comments I want to address.

Venus was too inexperienced when she was playing Hingis at the US Open in 1997

I'm sorry, but that's no excuse. It just shows that at the time Hingis was by far the superior player and understandably so. Just like Monica lost 6-0, 6-1 to Steffi at her first Wimbledon (Graf was #1, coming off her Golden Grand Slam; Monica was 15 in her second GS event) no one's making excuses for her. Like Steffi, Martina was miles ahead at the time and that needs to be respected. Or even in the Venus-Martina scenario, Hingis was a shadow of her former self in 2002, playing on one leg in Hamburg, yet you don't see Hingis fans crying about it.

Actually they do, all the time.

Davenport and Pierce overcame their injuries and continued; Hingis ran out

Each case is seperate. Hingis chooses not to play in pain and at a level below her best. It's her choice. She's given enough to this sport and it's fans. Memories to last a lifetime. Davenport and Pierce's injuries were different. Monica hasn't played since 2003. Did the Williamses run her out of the sport as well? :retard:

Some of you, denigrating Hingis, is just trashy. You go on and on about Hingis fans not letting go of records and stats, yet you're the ones making obnoxious comments about Hingis, years after her retirement. It's sickening that a player, who's career was cut short by injury, is being made fun of because of the circumstances in which her career ended. I find it ironic that some of you claim to think Hingis is lying and yet, you're the ones who stand up to defend Venus everytime she has to withdraw from an event. Do you ever hear me questioning her injury? Show some respect. I find it unfortunate that a wonderful young woman like Venus has such people in her fanbase. Then again, it's no different with any other fanbase for these players.

Her doctor said she could play if she could handle a little pain. Hingis decided she didn't want to try and work her way back up the ranks. She admitted not wanting to take her losses and even said "look at Venus now" when Venus was having her horrible patch in 2004. So anyone saying that Hingis has too much pride to come back is pretty well on target. Even Lindsay who was her good buddy on tour said Hingis just didn't want to come back and take her losses.

Brooks.
Sep 24th, 2005, 04:38 PM
Actually they do, all the time.

[b][u]

Her doctor said she could play if she could handle a little pain. Hingis decided she didn't want to try and work her way back up the ranks. She admitted not wanting to take her losses and even said "look at Venus now" when Venus was having her horrible patch in 2004. So anyone saying that Hingis has too much pride to come back is pretty well on target. Even Lindsay who was her good buddy on tour said Hingis just didn't want to come back and take her losses.

oh yea......that hingis quote was classic.....something like "look at venus williams..i wouldnt ever want to be like that"........ :lol: i guess she wouldnt want to be the 2005 wimbledon champion :confused: :tape: ......and who could forget jelena dokic's infamous 04' quote..."the williams sisters...that story's over"......says jelena.....world number ..what is it again..400 :tape:

MisterQ
Sep 24th, 2005, 07:08 PM
Venus and Hingis both brought something very special to the court. You need only look at their consecutive USO semis in 1999 and 2000 to see what amazing players they were, and how well they generally matched up.

In my mind they are roughly the same caliber of player -- both were capable, at their best, of making their opponents look like amateurs.

This 2004 interview of Richard Williams is telling:

QUESTION: Other than your daughters, who's your favorite player on tour? There has to be somebody out there you pull for.

WILLIAMS: Well, my favorite isn't playing anymore. And it's Martina Hingis.

QUESTION: What makes her so special?

WILLIAMS: I've never seen somebody who didn't have very much to work with that won everything there was to win. I really admired her.

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/05/23/Sports/He_s_not_your_average.shtml

Veenut
Sep 25th, 2005, 09:30 PM
.

Venus was too inexperienced when she was playing Hingis at the US Open in 1997

I'm sorry, but that's no excuse.



Some of you, denigrating Hingis, is just trashy. You go on and on about Hingis fans not letting go of records and stats, yet you're the ones making obnoxious comments about Hingis, years after her retirement. It's sickening that a player, who's career was cut short by injury, is being made fun of because of the circumstances in which her career ended. I find it ironic that some of you claim to think Hingis is lying and yet, you're the ones who stand up to defend Venus everytime she has to withdraw from an event. Do you ever hear me questioning her injury? Show some respect. I find it unfortunate that a wonderful young woman like Venus has such people in her fanbase. Then again, it's no different with any other fanbase for these players.

I hope you don't see this as an attack because I find you to be the most reasonable and thoughtful of the Hingis fan base and quite frankly I admire and respect you even though our views are quite different on your fave.

Venus being inexperienced in '97 is no excuse, just a fact. No one expected her to be in the finals much less win, therefore if she had won it would have been a pleasant surprise.

I have a big problem with Hingis' attitude, as I can think of no one who denigrated others like she did. Many complain about Serena and Venus not giving credit to other players but if that is their main offense then it pales in comparison to Hingis' personal attacks on individual players. She has said so many unkind things over the years that doesn't endear her to me or many others alike.

You must admit that most of your fellow "collegues" are very vicious when it comes to Venus and Serena. Some of their comments are even filled with racists over tones, therefore they cannot and shouldn't get a pass.

In anycase, from my observation most Williams fans respected Hingis' contribution to the sport and relished the matches between her and our faves. What we detest is the constant criticism and the absence of credit that our faves get from your fan base. As with human nature it is expected that we are going to defend our faves passionately just as you do.