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Calimero377
Jul 13th, 2005, 04:38 AM
Likhovtseva def. Graf 5-4.

Graf must have been injured.
Does anyone know more?

Knizzle
Jul 13th, 2005, 04:39 AM
Methinks Cali was about to be bragging if Graf beat a current WTA player to five games. :lol:

Scotso
Jul 13th, 2005, 04:41 AM
It was no upset, she hasn't played professional tennis in what... 6 years?

spencercarlos
Jul 13th, 2005, 04:42 AM
Likhovtseva def. Graf 5-4.

Graf must have been injured.
Does anyone know more?
:lol: because of you thinking of an injury...

Seyz
Jul 13th, 2005, 04:42 AM
Well Graf never had to deal with the likes of Serena and Venus. The game is at an entirely different level now. She was good for her time, but a healthy Serena versus a healthy Graf... I think we all know what the results would be.

Calimero377
Jul 13th, 2005, 04:43 AM
Methinks Cali was about to be bragging if Graf beat a current WTA player to five games. :lol:


Bragging?

No, actually I expected Graf to beat this journeywoman easily.
What is Likhovsetva's ranking?
Only #16 or so, no?

Damn, Graf must be a little bit rusty ...

Vaidisova
Jul 13th, 2005, 04:44 AM
http://tinypic.com/72wp60.jpg

http://tinypic.com/72wpba.jpg

http://tinypic.com/72wpc7.jpg

http://tinypic.com/72wpd4.jpg

http://tinypic.com/72wpe8.jpg

http://tinypic.com/72wphl.jpg

http://tinypic.com/72wpid.jpg

spencercarlos
Jul 13th, 2005, 04:45 AM
Bragging?

No, actually I expected Graf to beat this journeywoman easily.
What is Likhovsetva's ranking?
Only #16 or so, no?

Damn, Graf must be a little bit rusty ...
This journeywoman took Graf to three sets at the end of 1998 Philly if you forget, an event Graf won.

Knizzle
Jul 13th, 2005, 04:45 AM
Bragging?

No, actually I expected Graf to beat this journeywoman easily.
What is Likhovsetva's ranking?
Only #16 or so, no?

Damn, Graf must be a little bit rusty ...

Be glad Graf made it competitive with a top 20 player. It's a good effort IMO. With more work Graf may be able to beat a lower top ten player in the near future.

~{X}~
Jul 13th, 2005, 04:45 AM
http://tinypic.com/72wp60.jpg

http://tinypic.com/72wpba.jpg

http://tinypic.com/72wpc7.jpg

http://tinypic.com/72wpd4.jpg

http://tinypic.com/72wpe8.jpg

http://tinypic.com/72wphl.jpg

http://tinypic.com/72wpid.jpg

She looks great! :hearts: She should return to the tour maybe for some doubles or maybe even a little singles. I miss watching her lol.

Calimero377
Jul 13th, 2005, 04:45 AM
Well Graf never had to deal with the likes of Serena and Venus. The game is at an entirely different level now. She was good for her time, but a healthy Serena versus a healthy Graf... I think we all know what the results would be.


OK, a healthy 23-year-old Serena most probably would beat a healthy 36-year-old Graf.

~Cherry*Blossom~
Jul 13th, 2005, 04:46 AM
Graf :bowdown: A close match against this years French Open semifinalist :bowdown:

dansnewbeg
Jul 13th, 2005, 04:49 AM
Tonight's results are here: http://www.wtt.com/schedules/results.asp?game_id=258

tennislover
Jul 13th, 2005, 04:50 AM
:tape: :tape: :tape: :tape: :tape: :tape: :tape: :tape: :tape: :tape:

rada
Jul 13th, 2005, 04:51 AM
wow i must say she looks so good..........and as much as i don't like her i hope she can come back to play a few more match's as i would love monica to do the same :)

tennislover
Jul 13th, 2005, 04:51 AM
http://tinypic.com/72wp60.jpg

http://tinypic.com/72wpba.jpg

http://tinypic.com/72wpc7.jpg

http://tinypic.com/72wpd4.jpg

http://tinypic.com/72wpe8.jpg

http://tinypic.com/72wphl.jpg

http://tinypic.com/72wpid.jpg

nice pics :cool:
I prefer her now more than when she was a real tennis fury.....

Dawn Marie
Jul 13th, 2005, 04:52 AM
This is not an upset at all. If anything it shows that Graf still has it. It is not like Elena L is a tennis nobody. She knows the game and is not afraid of the top players.


Graf won 4 games off of Elena L while not playing in 6 years. I think this is damn good. Steffie come back............. come back.... steffie.

Calimero377
Jul 13th, 2005, 04:53 AM
:tape: :tape: :tape: :tape: :tape: :tape: :tape: :tape: :tape: :tape:


Don't gloat to much about Graf's embarrassing loss.

Some day she will get at Navi again. And it all will be like Wimbledon 1988 revisited ...

kabuki
Jul 13th, 2005, 04:54 AM
Wow. That's a great result. I hope it inspires Steffi to compete some more in some way or the other. :D

Mattographer
Jul 13th, 2005, 04:54 AM
She looks fabulous! :hearts:

joz
Jul 13th, 2005, 04:55 AM
[QUOTE=Seyz]Well Graf never had to deal with the likes of Serena and Venus. QUOTE]

Really? I thought she beat Venus in the Semis of that grass tournament @ Wimbledon. '99

tennislover
Jul 13th, 2005, 04:55 AM
Don't gloat to much about Graf's embarrassing loss.

Some day she will get at Navi again. And it all will be like Wimbledon 1988 revisited ...

You know i'm less glad I expected to be......
in some way we all must respect her......
a double with Navy would be epic....

Wannabeknowitall
Jul 13th, 2005, 04:55 AM
Ok. Graf hasn't played on the tour since 99'... almost 6 years.
Likhovtseva just finished her 45th consecutive slam apperance. I don't even remember the last time Likhovtseva has been off the tour for more than 2 months.
Likhovtseva is playing the best year of her long career.
Graf has two children and look absolutely amazing. She looked fit months after her second child.
Likhovtseva treats the younger Russians like her children.
Add to the fact that the last two matches that Likhovtseva played Graf to three sets, it was bound to be close. I'm actually surprised that Graf was able to get 4 games off of Likhovtseva.

VeeReeDavJCap81
Jul 13th, 2005, 04:59 AM
OK, a healthy 23-year-old Serena most probably would beat a healthy 36-year-old Graf.

Didn't a healthy 17 year old Serena beat a healthy 30 year old Graf in 1999? What's your point?

Keith
Jul 13th, 2005, 05:01 AM
Steffi looks to be in better shape than half the top 20. She looks like she could pass as someoen in their late twenties. And she has had 2 kids. Go Steffi!

CoryAnnAvants#1
Jul 13th, 2005, 05:04 AM
So Graf was two points away from taking a set off a player knocking on the door of the top 15? That's pretty damn good IMO. I don't know why everybody is knocking her.

For a 36 year old mother of two who practiced sporadically leading up to the event, who has played exactly one match in the last six years (an exo against Gabriela Sabatini), this is amazing. If she came back to the tour right now she would be in the top 20 or 25.

tennislover
Jul 13th, 2005, 05:07 AM
Graf must have been injured.


injured? what did you mean? :confused:
if she were injured why did she play?

G1Player2
Jul 13th, 2005, 05:07 AM
Wow, I have to admit that GRAF looks GREAT in those pictures...She definitely is all things tennis...

G1Player2
Jul 13th, 2005, 05:09 AM
Didn't a healthy 17 year old Serena beat a healthy 30 year old Graf in 1999? What's your point?

correction: Graf was a healthy 29 year-old...:)

Calimero377
Jul 13th, 2005, 05:11 AM
Didn't a healthy 17 year old Serena beat a healthy 30 year old Graf in 1999? What's your point?


Graf was not healthy in 1998/99.
And she lost to Serna, Kournikova, Sugijyama, Appelmans, Schnyder, Halard types in those years.

VeeDaQueen
Jul 13th, 2005, 05:20 AM
Cali,

Graf can lose. Serna, Kournikova, Sugijyama, Appelmans, Schnyder, and Halard were all very talented players back in the 90's and early 00's. I just don't know why you try so hard to make it seem like Graf never lost a match in her career. When Graf was injured, none of her losses count; but when somebody else is injured and lose to a player "beneath" them, then they are just complete crap. Even the best fall down sometimes. I seriously think you have a mental disorder because your posts really freak me out and every fan on this message board. You even scare the Graf fans. Please go see a doctor before you kill yourself. It's in your best interests.

Calimero377
Jul 13th, 2005, 05:24 AM
Cali,

Graf can lose. Serna, Kournikova, Sugijyama, Appelmans, Schnyder, and Halard were all very talented players back in the 90's and early 00's. I just don't know why you try so hard to make it seem like Graf never lost a match in her career. When Graf was injured, none of her losses count; but when somebody else is injured and lose to a player "beneath" them, then they are just complete crap. Even the best fall down sometimes. I seriously think you have a mental disorder because your posts really freak me out and every fan on this message board. You even scare the Graf fans. Please go see a doctor before you kill yourself. It's in your best interests.


Of course Graf lost matches during her long career when she was NOT injured.
At least a dozen or so ....

hewittrok
Jul 13th, 2005, 05:25 AM
but have you guys seen her she looks good, she looks really in good shape.

Zauber
Jul 13th, 2005, 05:30 AM
I wish she would not play anymore.
I think she has a winning record against every player.

ps that includes venus williams i think done in the twilight of her career

Martian KC
Jul 13th, 2005, 05:32 AM
Not all of them can be Martina Hingis, cali. Give her a break.:tape:

Stamp Paid
Jul 13th, 2005, 05:32 AM
Hardly an upset.

Moreso a Likhovtseva choke that made it so close.

@m@nd@
Jul 13th, 2005, 05:34 AM
not a reali big upset cause elena L is still a great player
and it was close...5-4
i hope steffi comes back and plays some doubles or something :sad:

Paneru
Jul 13th, 2005, 06:43 AM
I wish she would not play anymore.
I think she has a winning record against every player.

ps that includes venus williams i think done in the twilight of her career
Not quite, Steffi first played Venus in 96' when Venus
was 16, she had just turned pro two years prior and
it was before Richard allowed her to play Slams.

3rd of the 5 tournaments she played that year.

Steffi is 3-2 again Venus

3 L. Angeles Aug 18 1996 S Graf(1) - V Williams-WC 6-4 6-4
QF Sydney Jan 17 1999 S Graf(6) - V Williams(4) 4-6 6-2 6-4
SF Hannover Feb 21 1999 V Williams(2) - S Graf(3) 3-6 6-3 6-3
SF Key Bisc. Mar 28 1999 V Williams(6) - S Graf(7) 6-2 6-4
QF Wimbledon July 4 1999 S Graf(2) - V Williams(6) 6-2 3-6 6-4


Steffi is tied 1-1 with Serena

F Indian W. Mar 14 1999 S Williams - S Graf(5) 6-3 3-6 7-5
2 Sydney Jan 17 1999 S Graf(6) - S Williams 6-2 3-6 7-5


She looks to be in great condition.

gorecki
Jul 13th, 2005, 07:33 AM
Steffi looks to be in better shape than half the top 20. She looks like she could pass as someoen in their late twenties. And she has had 2 kids. Go Steffi!
agree with Keith! she is looking mighty fit! :yeah:
great pics!

Jackson.
Jul 13th, 2005, 07:36 AM
She looks great! :worship:

Did she play dubs or mixed?? How did she go?

tennisrox
Jul 13th, 2005, 07:41 AM
Likhovtseva def. Graf 5-4.

Graf must have been injured.
Does anyone know more?

Maybe Lena played a lot to Steffi's Killer Backhand!!!
:scared: ;)
Lena is a current top 20 player!What do you expect from Steffi??

pla
Jul 13th, 2005, 08:01 AM
OMG those legs- it's fascinating :lol: (and I must say I am a straght female and I hate "the look" fans). Nice effort from Steffi aganst a top20 player.

Jakeev
Jul 13th, 2005, 08:30 AM
OK, a healthy 23-year-old Serena most probably would beat a healthy 36-year-old Graf.

A healthy Serena could beat Graf at any age........

tennisrox
Jul 13th, 2005, 08:48 AM
A healthy Serena could beat Graf at any age........

I agree.Graf is a better athlete with one of the best forehands ever,but i can't see her beating Rena with a BH like that.

Miranda
Jul 13th, 2005, 08:57 AM
Even I am not Graf's fans, i do admit that she is a great player, but you are making people to dislike her with so many threads like that :tape:

Philbo
Jul 13th, 2005, 08:59 AM
Don't gloat to much about Graf's embarrassing loss.

Some day she will get at Navi again. And it all will be like Wimbledon 1988 revisited ...

More like Wimbledon 1987... Sraight sets drubbing.. Or US Open 1987..

So nice knowing Martina was always able to at least win a set in all their finals, even during her burntout years of 88,89..

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

geoepee
Jul 13th, 2005, 09:03 AM
I hope this doesn't discourage Graf from playing more WTT matches......

Dennis
Jul 13th, 2005, 09:11 AM
Likhovtseva def. Graf 5-4.

Graf must have been injured.
Does anyone know more?

HA HA HA !! You are pathetic !

Sam L
Jul 13th, 2005, 11:25 AM
http://tinypic.com/72wp60.jpg

http://tinypic.com/72wpba.jpg

http://tinypic.com/72wpc7.jpg

http://tinypic.com/72wpd4.jpg

http://tinypic.com/72wpe8.jpg

http://tinypic.com/72wphl.jpg

http://tinypic.com/72wpid.jpg
She looks amazing for someone who's retired from tennis for 6 years and had two babies! :eek:

DragonFlame
Jul 13th, 2005, 11:36 AM
well, what if andre's and steffi's children gonna play tennis and win all things. guess who would be there biggest fan(somehow thinks of the person obsessed with graf :lol: )

Dennis
Jul 13th, 2005, 11:36 AM
I agree.Graf is a better athlete with one of the best forehands ever,but i can't see her beating Rena with a BH like that.

Me neither. Most of the girls in todays tennis would destroy that backhand of Steffi.

DragonFlame
Jul 13th, 2005, 11:45 AM
maybe if she asks justine to borrow her backhand, she would have a chance^^

YourBoyDan
Jul 13th, 2005, 11:52 AM
WOW steffi looks amazing in these pics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I need to see this set of tennis even though she lost.....I am actually surprised it was virtually a tie and she hasnt played a set of tennis against a current top 16 player in over a half a decade...this is result is very satisfactory and shows why STEFFI is talked about being the greatest female single's tennis player in history!!!

spartanfan
Jul 13th, 2005, 12:02 PM
Not quite, Steffi first played Venus in 96' when Venus
was 16, she had just turned pro two years prior and
it was before Richard allowed her to play Slams.

3rd of the 5 tournaments she played that year.

Steffi is 3-2 again Venus

3 L. Angeles Aug 18 1996 S Graf(1) - V Williams-WC 6-4 6-4
QF Sydney Jan 17 1999 S Graf(6) - V Williams(4) 4-6 6-2 6-4
SF Hannover Feb 21 1999 V Williams(2) - S Graf(3) 3-6 6-3 6-3
SF Key Bisc. Mar 28 1999 V Williams(6) - S Graf(7) 6-2 6-4
QF Wimbledon July 4 1999 S Graf(2) - V Williams(6) 6-2 3-6 6-4


Steffi is tied 1-1 with Serena

F Indian W. Mar 14 1999 S Williams - S Graf(5) 6-3 3-6 7-5
2 Sydney Jan 17 1999 S Graf(6) - S Williams 6-2 3-6 7-5


She looks to be in great condition.


I definitely think Venus and Serena would have totally dominated Steffi if she had not retired in '99. Steffi never had an easy winning match against Venus. And for Serena to beat her in only her second final says a lot. Neither was intimidated by Steffi and those score lines show it. And crazies can't say that Steffi wasn't still playing well b/c she won the FO that year and made the finals of Wimbledon. Perhaps the Williams Sisters also helped usher out Graff, just like they had a hand in ushering Hingis out of the game.

gorecki
Jul 13th, 2005, 12:02 PM
Me neither. Most of the girls in todays tennis would destroy that backhand of Steffi.
against one of the best slice backhands ever?

it's great to see players like Steffi, Gaby and Jana still looking good, and some looking even better than when they were still on the WTA tour :)

rjd1111
Jul 13th, 2005, 12:59 PM
Bragging?

No, actually I expected Graf to beat this journeywoman easily.
What is Likhovsetva's ranking?
Only #16 or so, no?

Damn, Graf must be a little bit rusty ...


Maybe Likhovsetva didn't know she was supposed to lose to
the great Graf.

rjd1111
Jul 13th, 2005, 01:02 PM
OK, a healthy 23-year-old Serena most probably would beat a healthy 36-year-old Graf.


An at her best Serena would beat an any year old Graf at her best.

Oneofakind0490
Jul 13th, 2005, 01:03 PM
I definitely think Venus and Serena would have totally dominated Steffi if she had not retired in '99. Steffi never had an easy winning match against Venus. And for Serena to beat her in only her second final says a lot. Neither was intimidated by Steffi and those score lines show it. And crazies can't say that Steffi wasn't still playing well b/c she won the FO that year and made the finals of Wimbledon. Perhaps the Williams Sisters also helped usher out Graff, just like they had a hand in ushering Hingis out of the game.Please you know that last part was utter bullshit.

rjd1111
Jul 13th, 2005, 01:11 PM
I definitely think Venus and Serena would have totally dominated Steffi if she had not retired in '99. Steffi never had an easy winning match against Venus. And for Serena to beat her in only her second final says a lot. Neither was intimidated by Steffi and those score lines show it. And crazies can't say that Steffi wasn't still playing well b/c she won the FO that year and made the finals of Wimbledon. Perhaps the Williams Sisters also helped usher out Graff, just like they had a hand in ushering Hingis out of the game.



Very Good Post! She was Smarter than Hingis and Got out while the
Gittin was good.

Sam L
Jul 13th, 2005, 01:11 PM
She looks amazing for someone who's retired from tennis for 6 years and had two babies! :eek:
Wait, let me rephrase that, she looks amazing for anyone of any ago, let alone a retired tennis player who's had two babies. :D

grafan92
Jul 13th, 2005, 01:11 PM
Making a brief return

By JOHN MILLER

Star-Telegram Staff Writer


HOUSTON - The announcer saved her for the last introduction.

He first mentioned her induction into the tennis Hall of Fame.

That was the last thing most of the crowd heard, as its roar drowned out everything else.

Welcome back to tennis, Steffi Graf.

After retiring six years ago, Graf made a much anticipated one-time-only return to tennis in her World Team Tennis debut as a member of the Houston Wranglers, and played in the maximum-possible three sets in front of a partisan crowd Tuesday at Westside Tennis Club.

"It was a lot of fun," Graf said. "I was as nervous as I expected to be, but I enjoyed it. It wasn't easy, but it was a lot of fun. I will feel it [today], that's for sure."

Those who waited six years to see Graf, who won 22 Grand Slam singles titles, make her brief "comeback" had to wait a little longer than expected to see her take the court as rain delayed the match a little over an hour.

That gave the crowd more time to pack the 5,200-seat stadium. After averaging just over 3,000 people in the first two home matches for the Wranglers, 4,862 spectators came out to see Graf take the court for the Wranglers, who lost to Sacramento 21-18 in overtime.

"It was great," said Billie Jean King, "It's a great opportunity for people to see the person who won so much, who won everything."

Graf returned to tennis as a favor to her good friends, Jim and Linda McIngvale, owners of the Houston Wranglers.

It was clear from the outset what the fans cared the most about. Mardy Fish got things off to a good start for the Wranglers, winning his singles match 5-2. But the cheer for his victory turned into an eruption when Graf took the court to warm up for women's doubles.

Despite all of her accomplishments on the biggest stages in tennis, Graf felt nervous heading into her first competitive match since 1999.

"I played for such a long time and it's in my blood, but to be out there and playing points again -- it's nerve wracking," Graf said. "You always want to play well for the spectators and your team."

Playing her first team tennis match, which features different rules than in regular tournaments, added to her anxiety. Just an hour before the match, she quizzed King on the rules of team tennis.

The rust from a six-year layoff showed. Partnered with Ansley Cargil in women's doubles, she lost her first match of the night 5-2 to Anna Kournikova and Elena Likhovtseva.

And the unique rules gave her problems at times.

None of which bothered the crowd. In her second set -- singles against Likhovtseva -- Graf forced a tiebreaker. The crowd started chanting "Steffi, Steffi." At 2-2 in the tiebreaker, she raised her racket to the crowd and gave a little pump, leading to another chant from the crowd for Graf.

"The crowd was awesome," Graf said.

Even with the crowd backing her, Graf could not pull out the tiebreaker, losing 5-3.

Graf, the only player to play in three sets for either team, gave it one last shot in mixed doubles with Fish. She finally came out on top with a 5-3 victory, sending the match into overtime, but the match ended one-game later, in what might have, or might not have been her last competitive game.

"I'll see," Graf said. "I have to recuperate from [the match] and possibly, maybe I will try again."

rjd1111
Jul 13th, 2005, 01:20 PM
First match in six years ends with mixed doubles winESPN.com news services


HOUSTON -- Anna Kournikova spoiled Steffi Graf's return to the tennis court, winning singles and doubles matches in a World TeamTennis Pro League match Tuesday night.

In a meet between Kournikova's Sacramento Capitals and the Houston Wranglers, Kournikova defeated Graf 5-4. In doubles, Kournikova and Elena Likhovtseva defeated Graf and Ansley Cargill, 5-2. The Capitals won the meet 21-18.

However, Graf was successful in mixed doubles, where she and Mardy Fish beat Mark Knowles and Kournikova 5-3.

Graf's appearance for the Wranglers interrupted a six-year retirement.

"It's hard for me to call it a comeback," Graf told The Associated Press in a telephone interview before the match. "It's too early to say if there will be more. It's hard with all the schedules. If it works out, maybe there is another one."

Much has changed in the 36-year-old Graf's life since she retired in August 1999 as the third-ranked player in the world.

miranda_lou
Jul 13th, 2005, 01:43 PM
Kournikova defeated Graf 5-4.

Guess this "reporter" wasn't paying attention.:rolleyes:

I hope Steffi plays more WTT but I'm sure she won't make any sort of comeback to the tour full time. She's too devoted to her babies.:angel:

Sir Stefwhit
Jul 13th, 2005, 01:58 PM
So Graf was two points away from taking a set off a player knocking on the door of the top 15? That's pretty damn good IMO. I don't know why everybody is knocking her.

For a 36 year old mother of two who practiced sporadically leading up to the event, who has played exactly one match in the last six years (an exo against Gabriela Sabatini), this is amazing. If she came back to the tour right now she would be in the top 20 or 25.
Thank God for proper perspective! This is an admirable effort, I'm proud of Steffi. I hope she decides to give it a go some other time and plays a few more matches next season. I'm glad she put up a good score unlike Navratilova- I couldn't have lived with a 5-0 showing...

LDVTennis
Jul 13th, 2005, 02:13 PM
Well Graf never had to deal with the likes of Serena and Venus. The game is at an entirely different level now. She was good for her time, but a healthy Serena versus a healthy Graf... I think we all know what the results would be.

If Serena has a body at age 35 or so like Graf does in the pictures posted above, then that will be an "upset."

LDVTennis
Jul 13th, 2005, 02:16 PM
Me neither. Most of the girls in todays tennis would destroy that backhand of Steffi.

Yeah, that is why the men have no problem beating up on Roger Federer, with his slice backhand and all. I think NOT.

TeamUSA#1
Jul 13th, 2005, 02:26 PM
Likhosteva is almost Top 15 today and Steffi hasn't played in 6 years!!!! GREAT RESULT!!!! She could easily be Top 10 again if she wanted. She looks awesome at 36 and after 2 babies!!!! she looks awesome for any age, in fact, babies or no babies!!!

ys
Jul 13th, 2005, 02:29 PM
Bragging?

No, actually I expected Graf to beat this journeywoman easily.
What is Likhovsetva's ranking?
Only #16 or so, no?

Damn, Graf must be a little bit rusty ...

I hope, Gunther, you are not suicidal.. :lol:

RenaSlam.
Jul 13th, 2005, 02:30 PM
Sign of Greatness...Likhovtseva beating Graf.

matthieu_tennis
Jul 13th, 2005, 02:32 PM
did you imagine how is the extra pressure for likovtseva :P its never easy to play a legend

Dennis
Jul 13th, 2005, 02:33 PM
I hope, Gunther, you are not suicidal.. :lol:

:lol:

ToeTag
Jul 13th, 2005, 02:34 PM
Likhosteva is almost Top 15 today and Steffi hasn't played in 6 years!!!! GREAT RESULT!!!! She could easily be Top 10 again if she wanted. She looks awesome at 36 and after 2 babies!!!! she looks awesome for any age, in fact, babies or no babies!!!
Really, I don't know what some ppl are orgasmic about? Its' WTT. Not a real WTA event, and I would think that the current WTA players who play in this league{WTT} do not take it very seriously. EL took it easy on Graf out of respect, and wanting to give the fans their moneys worth!!
I agree that she looks great.

Dennis
Jul 13th, 2005, 02:34 PM
Yeah, that is why the men have no problem beating up on Roger Federer, with his slice backhand and all. I think NOT.

Roger plays topspin backhand as often as the slice. Graf does not even know how to hit a topspin backhand.

AlexB
Jul 13th, 2005, 02:43 PM
wtt is an exo...even if graf, or any pleyer for that matter, won 5-0 i wouldnt read anything into it.....just be glad graf played and people got to see her....it would serve the graf fans better to go on her great wta record that it will be grabbing at wtt straws...and i dont need to remind some hardcore graf fans that you cannot dismiss doubles results, like u do with navratilova, on one hand, then use wtt results to prove points, on the other...wtt is a straight up exo...next thinh u know we will be counting wins against coaches at practice

LDVTennis
Jul 13th, 2005, 02:44 PM
I definitely think Venus and Serena would have totally dominated Steffi if she had not retired in '99. Steffi never had an easy winning match against Venus. And for Serena to beat her in only her second final says a lot. Neither was intimidated by Steffi and those score lines show it. And crazies can't say that Steffi wasn't still playing well b/c she won the FO that year and made the finals of Wimbledon. Perhaps the Williams Sisters also helped usher out Graff, just like they had a hand in ushering Hingis out of the game.

What ushered Steffi out of the game was lack of motivation after a 17 year pro career of winning at least 7 tournaments for 11 of those 17 years. I'd like to see Serena's numbers over her entire career to see if she's been anywhere near as consisent and committed as Steffi.

What ushered Steffi out of the game was a series of injuries, beginning with the knee injury in 1997, that forced her to modify the way she trained offcourt. Despite all of the injuries Steffi sustained in her career, up to and including the knee injury which required two surgeries, Steffi always returned to the court looking fit, trim, and toned, much like she looks in the pictures above. Could you perhaps show us pictures from Wimbledon and the Italian Open so we can compare how well Serena copes with injuries?

What will usher the W sisters out of the game after much shorter careers, and fewer tournaments wins per year, will most likely be lack of total commitment to the sport, bodies breaking down because of bad technique, weight, and lack of training, and the falloff in consistent production. Indeed, watching the W sisters now is much like watching any player at the end of his or her career, except Steffi perhaps, they do well in a major and then they are ineffective over a series of tournaments. So, fans of the W sisters at this point can only wish that the W Sisters finish their careers as brilliantly as Steffi did hers.

Knizzle
Jul 13th, 2005, 02:45 PM
Yeah, that is why the men have no problem beating up on Roger Federer, with his slice backhand and all. I think NOT.

Roger does not hit a slice 90% of the time like Steffi. Having said that, i don't think she would be beaten up on tour because of that backhand.

ys
Jul 13th, 2005, 02:56 PM
Well, that's OK, 47 yo Navratilova also could not beat Likhovtseva, though she too played a close set.

DA FOREHAND
Jul 13th, 2005, 02:59 PM
This journeywoman took Graf to three sets at the end of 1998 Philly if you forget, an event Graf won.


I remember that.....she fed Hingis a bagel and beat Lindsay in the final....go Steffi Go Steffi

G1Player2
Jul 13th, 2005, 03:04 PM
What ushered Steffi out of the game was lack of motivation after a 17 year pro career of winning at least 7 tournaments for 11 of those 17 years. I'd like to see Serena's numbers over her entire career to see if she's been anywhere near as consisent and committed as Steffi.

What ushered Steffi out of the game was a series of injuries, beginning with the knee injury in 1997, that forced her to modify the way she trained offcourt. Despite all of the injuries Steffi sustained in her career, up to and including the knee injury which required two surgeries, Steffi always returned to the court looking fit, trim, and toned, much like she looks in the pictures above. Could you perhaps show us pictures from Wimbledon and the Italian Open so we can compare how well Serena copes with injuries?

What will usher the W sisters out of the game after much shorter careers, and fewer tournaments wins per year, will most likely be lack of total commitment to the sport, bodies breaking down because of bad technique, weight, and lack of training, and the falloff in consistent production. Indeed, watching the W sisters now is much like watching any player at the end of his or her career, except Steffi perhaps, they do well in a major and then they are ineffective over a series of tournaments. So, fans of the W sisters at this point can only wish that the W Sisters finish their careers as brilliantly as Steffi did hers.

Whatever...The tour is ALOT more physically demanding than it was when Steffi was playing...

You are SUCH a closet Williams hater it isn't eve funny...:lol: :lol: :lol:

*roddicksinme*
Jul 13th, 2005, 03:06 PM
Steffi looks as good as ever and I think a 4-5 loss is a damn good effort :D

DevilishAttitude
Jul 13th, 2005, 03:06 PM
Elena :) :o Too close.

Graf won mixed :) But lost Kournikova and Elena in doubles :) :o

G1Player2
Jul 13th, 2005, 03:07 PM
Yeah, that is why the men have no problem beating up on Roger Federer, with his slice backhand and all. I think NOT.

Roger federer does NOT use that slice backhand even REMOTELY close to the way Steffi used it...And he has a KILLER topspin backhand...:worship:

Robert1
Jul 13th, 2005, 03:07 PM
So Graff lost all her matches? Why does that not surprise me ...

tennisrox
Jul 13th, 2005, 03:11 PM
Yeah, that is why the men have no problem beating up on Roger Federer, with his slice backhand and all. I think NOT.

Huh?Roger has a superb topspin BH too.He plays the slice as well.Roger has every shot in the book :worship: .You simply cannot survive at the top nowadays without a topspin BH.Steffi may have a superb FH,but there are a lot of players with big forehands nowadays.They may not have the variety of Graf's FH but they are powerful enough to compete with it.

LDVTennis
Jul 13th, 2005, 03:28 PM
Roger plays topspin backhand as often as the slice. Graf does not even know how to hit a topspin backhand.

When did you start following the sport? Recently?

So, no topspin or "lift" backhand? So, what is that shot she is hitting against Martina at the '88 and '89 Wimbledon Finals? It doesn't look like a slice backhand.

Have you ever seen these matches? Have you ever seen her early matches against Novotna, Shriver, Sabatini, even Seles, when Steffi regularly used a topspin backhand for passing shots?

Here is a brief history of this shot as it pertains to Steffi. She learned and perfected the shot to use against Martina N.. After Martina and most of the serve and volleyers retired, Steffi began using it less. She's never had a need to use it against baseliners, even Monica Seles, because her slice backhand set up her forehand so well. So, it virtually disappeared when most of Steffi's competition became baseliners.

Even when she faced Novotna at Wimbledon in '96, she really didn't need it any longer. Against Martina N., Steffi had developed a shot combination that worked equally as well as a backhand topspin pass. Slice wide, short and low to the corners of the net. The net player will be forced to hit the volley toward the center of the court. Cover it with the forehand for the winner. Federer uses the exact same play today.

So, it is simply a myth that Steffi never could hit a topspin backhand or that she was always in the process of developing one. She had one. She just never needed to use it against baseliners.

Did the lack of a topspin backhand hurt her against the new generation of powerhitters (e.g., Pierce, Davenport, the W Sisters)? Not likely. What hurt her more were the injuries (the knee injury in particular) which forced her once and for all to curtail her rigorous off court training regimen.

As a result, she simply did not display the same level of confidence she had in her peak years, first peak in '88, second and highest peak in '96. One of the clearest signs of Steffi's confidence level had always been how many times she would run around the backhand to hit a forehand. She didn't do this as much in '98 and '99 as she had done in '88 or even in '96. It is not that she didn't have the chance. In the match she lost to Serena at IW '99, she had plenty of chances. I know I was there, sittitng courtside. She just seemed reluctant to take her chances. Certainly, age does that to one, but also in Steffi's case it was a sign that not being able to train the way she liked was even beginning to affect her best shot.

DA FOREHAND
Jul 13th, 2005, 03:34 PM
When did you start following the sport? Recently?

So, no topspin or "lift" backhand? So, what is that shot she is hitting against Martina at the '88 and '89 Wimbledon Finals? It doesn't look like a slice backhand.

Have you ever seen these matches? Have you ever seen her early matches against Novotna, Shriver, Sabatini, even Seles, when Steffi regularly used a topspin backhand for passing shots?

Here is a brief history of this shot as it pertains to Steffi. She learned and perfected the shot to use against Martina N.. After Martina and most of the serve and volleyers retired, Steffi began using it less. She's never had a need to use it against baseliners, even Monica Seles, because her slice backhand set up her forehand so well. So, it virtually disappeared when most of Steffi's competition became baseliners.

Even when she faced Novotna at Wimbledon in '96, she really didn't need it any longer. Against Martina N., Steffi had developed a shot combination that worked equally as well as a backhand topspin pass. Slice wide, short and low to the corners of the net. The net player will be forced to hit the volley toward the center of the court. Cover it with the forehand for the winner. Federer uses the exact same play today.

So, it is simply a myth that Steffi never could hit a topspin backhand or that she was always in the process of developing one. She had one. She just never needed to use it against baseliners.

Did the lack of a topspin backhand hurt her against the new generation of powerhitters (e.g., Pierce, Davenport, the W Sisters)? Not likely. What hurt her more were the injuries (the knee injury in particular) which forced her once and for all to curtail her rigorous off court training regimen.

As a result, she simply did not display the same level of confidence she had in her peak years, first peak in '88, second and highest peak in '96. One of the clearest signs of Steffi's confidence level had always been how many times she would run around the backhand to hit a forehand. She didn't do this as much in '98 and '99 as she had done in '88 or even in '96. It is not that she didn't have the chance. In the match she lost to Serena at IW '99, she had plenty of chances. I know I was there, sittitng courtside. She just seemed reluctant to take her chances. Certainly, age does that to one, but also in Steffi's case it was a sign that not being able to train the way she liked was even beginning to affect her best shot.


Most of the posters here started watching tennis in 2000, so they'd know nothing of anything but baseliners.

spartanfan
Jul 13th, 2005, 03:40 PM
What ushered Steffi out of the game was lack of motivation after a 17 year pro career of winning at least 7 tournaments for 11 of those 17 years. I'd like to see Serena's numbers over her entire career to see if she's been anywhere near as consisent and committed as Steffi.

What ushered Steffi out of the game was a series of injuries, beginning with the knee injury in 1997, that forced her to modify the way she trained offcourt. Despite all of the injuries Steffi sustained in her career, up to and including the knee injury which required two surgeries, Steffi always returned to the court looking fit, trim, and toned, much like she looks in the pictures above. Could you perhaps show us pictures from Wimbledon and the Italian Open so we can compare how well Serena copes with injuries?

What will usher the W sisters out of the game after much shorter careers, and fewer tournaments wins per year, will most likely be lack of total commitment to the sport, bodies breaking down because of bad technique, weight, and lack of training, and the falloff in consistent production. Indeed, watching the W sisters now is much like watching any player at the end of his or her career, except Steffi perhaps, they do well in a major and then they are ineffective over a series of tournaments. So, fans of the W sisters at this point can only wish that the W Sisters finish their careers as brilliantly as Steffi did hers.



My, my, my, I see the truth has hit a nerve. And don't hate Venus and Serena because they have an active life outside of tennis and know that tennis is not the be all and end all thing to do with their young lives. I just made the simple statement that Venus and Serena would have dominated Graf, if she had continued to play. What's wrong with that statement? I based it simply on the fact that in '99 Venus and Serena were still rising in their play and experience and still able to get wins over the more experienced Graf. A new era in tennis was starting, Venus and Serena knew it, and Graf knew it to. Graf was/is one of the all time greats, still, but she was indeed meeting her match with Venus and Serena.

LDVTennis
Jul 13th, 2005, 03:47 PM
Roger federer does NOT use that slice backhand even REMOTELY close to the way Steffi used it...And he has a KILLER topspin backhand...:worship:

Roger uses his topspin backhand to rally and to hit passing shots.

Steffi used hers just to hit passing shots.

Roger uses his slice backhand to rally, to challenge the court position of his opponent, and to force his opponent to hit a shot which Roger can hit for a winner with the forehand.

Steffi used her slice backhand to rally, to challenge the court position of her opponent, and to force her opponent to hit a shot which Steffi could hit for a winner with the forehand.

Aside from how they used their topspin backhands, the only other difference would be that Steffi's slice was more "German" in style than Roger's. "German" here refers to a kind of slice introduced by both Steffi and Boris Becker. This type of slice shot is hit with more pace and has more of a bite.

Fran16
Jul 13th, 2005, 03:50 PM
:eek: very close Steffi... :D :worship:

Elena :) vamos!

Paldias
Jul 13th, 2005, 03:51 PM
According to ESPN it was Kournikova not Likhovtseva

SelesFan70
Jul 13th, 2005, 03:53 PM
I'm not surprised that Steffi is in great shape. I'm not surprised she lost either. I mean, even Monica lost in WTT last year, so having Stephanie lose is no huge shock. :o

aheee!!
Jul 13th, 2005, 04:06 PM
not a graf fan, but I think her slice backhand would serve her quite well against serena especially. I think it would be an asset in not playing a straight power game against her, which is what Serena likes. If Serena is retired when she's graf's age, you can bet your life she won't look like that, judging by her mom and sisters. As it is now she's a big girl

Timariot
Jul 13th, 2005, 04:20 PM
Roger plays topspin backhand as often as the slice. Graf does not even know how to hit a topspin backhand.

Graf pre-1990 had excellent 1H topspin backhand, almost as good as Justine today. In her later years, she sliced almost exclusively.

Really, I hate all these idiots "modern players would beat Graf because they would hit to her backhand" as if NO ONE in 14 or so years when Graf was a top player figured that out... :rolleyes:

Timariot
Jul 13th, 2005, 04:30 PM
My, my, my, I see the truth has hit a nerve. And don't hate Venus and Serena because they have an active life outside of tennis and know that tennis is not the be all and end all thing to do with their young lives. I just made the simple statement that Venus and Serena would have dominated Graf, if she had continued to play. What's wrong with that statement? I based it simply on the fact that in '99 Venus and Serena were still rising in their play and experience and still able to get wins over the more experienced Graf. A new era in tennis was starting, Venus and Serena knew it, and Graf knew it to.

Venus and Serena had, by that point, made just 1 Slam final combined. Really, I think you're projecting modern day to 1999 bit too much.

Sure, she lost to Williamses in 1999. She also beat them. In addition to them, she also lost to Davenport, Seles, Hingis, Halard-Decuqis...how come these losses are not used as an evidence how those players would have whipped peak Graf?

Obviously Williamses (and others) would have eventually dominated Graf had she continued playing. I'm sure they would also have dominated Navratilova had she continued playing. I'm not really certain what that's supposed to prove...

manu32
Jul 13th, 2005, 04:31 PM
she looks so great......

selking
Jul 13th, 2005, 04:32 PM
wtt means nothing as we all know. Because if it did vaidasova would be way better then maria

LDVTennis
Jul 13th, 2005, 04:35 PM
My, my, my, I see the truth has hit a nerve. And don't hate Venus and Serena because they have an active life outside of tennis and know that tennis is not the be all and end all thing to do with their young lives. I just made the simple statement that Venus and Serena would have dominated Graf, if she had continued to play. What's wrong with that statement? I based it simply on the fact that in '99 Venus and Serena were still rising in their play and experience and still able to get wins over the more experienced Graf. A new era in tennis was starting, Venus and Serena knew it, and Graf knew it to. Graf was/is one of the all time greats, still, but she was indeed meeting her match with Venus and Serena.

Graf knew no such thing. Stop speaking as if you knew what she was thinking.

As for the rest, it is simply impossible to compare how Venus and Serena at their peak would have matched up with Steffi at her peak.

In '99, Steffi was nowhere near her peak, yet she was still competitive against the W. Sisters.

In '99, Venus actually wasn't that far off her peak physically and she was all there technically. In fact, Venus had a faster first serve (on average) back then than she does now. Mentally, she'd get it together in 2000 to win Wimbledon. But, Lindsay was definitely a better match up for her in 2000 than Graf in '99.

Curious how things change over time, however. In 2000, Venus beat Lindsay rather routinely. In the 2005 Wimbledon, she struggled to beat a Lindsay that could no longer cover entire sides of the court. That is not the problem Steffi had at all against Venus in the '99 Wimbledon QF. So, who was better, who was worse? Who had declined more, who had declined less?

As for Serena, Steffi only played her twice officially. She beat her once at the '99 Addidas International and lost to her at the '99 IW after being up a break in the third set. While Serena's game became more efficient after '99, and particularly in '02, all the power and court coverage skills were already there in '99. Graf coped with those well. What she didn't cope so well with was the mental part of her own game. She became more tentative after breaking Serena's serve in the third. In other words, the efficiency that had so characterized Steffi's game at its best was no longer there. So, what does that tell us?

About the only thing I know for sure is that Steffi, Venus, and Serena were all "young" once and at the peak of their powers. Unfortunately for those trying to compare them, they were not all "young" and at the peak of their powers at the same time. Which is why it is unfair to Steffi to look at how badly or how well she fared against the W Sisters in '99 and to conclude from all that that she would have been "dominated." Just as I suppose it was unfair to look at how well the W Sisters fared against Steffi in '99 and to conclude from all that that they would be dominating the sport for 10 years and in the process surpassing most of Steffi's records. Unfair? Yes? Because as we know the W sisters have never come close to being as dominant as Steffi was on a tennis court. So, in retrospect, too much may have been expected of them from a young age.

deckham
Jul 13th, 2005, 04:48 PM
how did serena get mentioned in this?????

comparing serena to graf??? :lol:

we all know graf is the best female singles tennis player ever, why even do a comparison? just a waste of time...

LDVTennis
Jul 13th, 2005, 05:02 PM
Whatever...The tour is ALOT more physically demanding than it was when Steffi was playing...

You are SUCH a closet Williams hater it isn't eve funny...:lol: :lol: :lol:

Yes, so much more physically demanding! :lol:

So, how many tournaments has Serena completed and won this year, last year, or even the year before that?

And, between celebrity appearances and parties, just how many weeks in succession or months out of the year does Serena train?

We know what Graf accomplished at a "less" demanding time in the history of the sport, --- at least 7 tournaments won over 11 consecutive years of a 17 year career. And, during that time, if this can be believed, she was even fitter than she appears in the photos above.

raquel
Jul 13th, 2005, 05:15 PM
Really, I hate all these idiots "modern players would beat Graf because they would hit to her backhand" as if NO ONE in 14 or so years when Graf was a top player figured that out... :rolleyes:
Exactly. And it's not like just hitting to Steffi's backhand suddenly meant you had a chance to win. Her records show that. She wouldn't overpower anyone with her backhand but she would open up the court with it easily. Her backhand was very solid. It was her forehand that was more likely to break down in rallies. Players like Gaby, Martina N., ASV who beat Graf more than most didn't just hit to the backhand. They knew they had to mix it up.

bandabou
Jul 13th, 2005, 05:23 PM
One can only wonder why LDV has to attack the sisters at EVERY opportunity.

One thing I've to add, LDV wants to give us the impression that Roger's ( and thus Steffi's) game is perfect, because he can hit the slice, he can a forehand dtl from the backhand corner, etc....

But to me that's why Roger will have a VERY hard time winning RG....look at what Nadal was doing with Roger time and time at RG....Roger would insist in running around his backhand and then hit it inside out, thus to Nadal's forehand because Nadal is a lefty...consequence? The WHOLE forehand corner of Roger was open....bam, Nadal winner in the open court....time and time again. Players like Nalbandian, Hewitt exploited this too in their earlier matches with Roger.

Calimero377
Jul 13th, 2005, 05:42 PM
A healthy Serena could beat Graf at any age........


Which Serena could beat a Graf in the form of

1) Wimbledon 88 final
2) FO 88 final
3) Wimbledon 89 final
4) AO 89 semifinal
5) Wimbledon 92 final
6) AO 94 final
7) Wimbledon 95 quarters
8) USO 96 final ?

Name some important and high-quality Serena matches (no, no IW 1st round matches - important ones!).
Make my day ....

spartanfan
Jul 13th, 2005, 05:45 PM
Graf knew no such thing. Stop speaking as if you knew what she was thinking.

As for the rest, it is simply impossible to compare how Venus and Serena at their peak would have matched up with Steffi at her peak.

In '99, Steffi was nowhere near her peak, yet she was still competitive against the W. Sisters.

In '99, Venus actually wasn't that far off her peak physically and she was all there technically. In fact, Venus had a faster first serve (on average) back then than she does now. Mentally, she'd get it together in 2000 to win Wimbledon. But, Lindsay was definitely a better match up for her in 2000 than Graf in '99.

Curious how things change over time, however. In 2000, Venus beat Lindsay rather routinely. In the 2005 Wimbledon, she struggled to beat a Lindsay that could no longer cover entire sides of the court. That is not the problem Steffi had at all against Venus in the '99 Wimbledon QF. So, who was better, who was worse? Who had declined more, who had declined less?

As for Serena, Steffi only played her twice officially. She beat her once at the '99 Addidas International and lost to her at the '99 IW after being up a break in the third set. While Serena's game became more efficient after '99, and particularly in '02, all the power and court coverage skills were already there in '99. Graf coped with those well. What she didn't cope so well with was the mental part of her own game. She became more tentative after breaking Serena's serve in the third. In other words, the efficiency that had so characterized Steffi's game at its best was no longer there. So, what does that tell us?

About the only thing I know for sure is that Steffi, Venus, and Serena were all "young" once and at the peak of their powers. Unfortunately for those trying to compare them, they were not all "young" and at the peak of their powers at the same time. Which is why it is unfair to Steffi to look at how badly or how well she fared against the W Sisters in '99 and to conclude from all that that she would have been "dominated." Just as I suppose it was unfair to look at how well the W Sisters fared against Steffi in '99 and to conclude from all that that they would be dominating the sport for 10 years and in the process surpassing most of Steffi's records. Unfair? Yes? Because as we know the W sisters have never come close to being as dominant as Steffi was on a tennis court. So, in retrospect, too much may have been expected of them from a young age.


Again, all I'm saying is that Venus and Serena had in 1999 allready figured out how to play and defeat Steffi. I think power players were a bit more tricky for Graff. How else could one explain her loss to a far less experienced, but more powerful, player like Serena in the finals of IW? Steffi, had far more experience and one of the "greatest" games in the history of the sport and still lost. I think all arrows were pointing to a future domination of her by Serena and Venus. And you criticize how often the Sisters play and workout, but maybe if Graf hadn't played so many tournaments her body would have held up better and longer or maybe it was her training regime in the first place that led to her injuries and surgeries? Or may everyone is built different and hold up differently, regardless of training, conditioning or fitness. Just a thought.

spartanfan
Jul 13th, 2005, 05:49 PM
Which Serena could beat a Graf in the form of

1) Wimbledon 88 final
2) FO 88 final
3) Wimbledon 89 final
4) AO 89 semifinal
5) Wimbledon 92 final
6) AO 94 final
7) Wimbledon 95 quarters
8) USO 96 final ?

Name some important and high-quality Serena matches (no, no IW 1st round matches - important ones!).
Make my day ....


Any Serena, cause once Serena learned how to handle Steffi's slice backhand, she'd just overpower Steffi. Serena has a better and more powerful serve than Steffi, better allround athlete, and more powerful off of both sides and just as mentally tough as Steffi, if not tougher.:)

bandabou
Jul 13th, 2005, 05:55 PM
Which Serena could beat a Graf in the form of

1) Wimbledon 88 final
2) FO 88 final
3) Wimbledon 89 final
4) AO 89 semifinal
5) Wimbledon 92 final
6) AO 94 final
7) Wimbledon 95 quarters
8) USO 96 final ?

Name some important and high-quality Serena matches (no, no IW 1st round matches - important ones!).
Make my day ....

Serena probably wouldn't be able to beat Graf in those matches...too good, I' m sure she would take a set though...

But someone whom definetely WOULD beat Graf for sure, is Enna...certainly at the Oz and French opens....Enna would be too good..

Calimero377
Jul 13th, 2005, 05:56 PM
I agree.Graf is a better athlete with one of the best forehands ever,but i can't see her beating Rena with a BH like that.


Healthy peak Serena lost in 00/02 (= 3 years) to

LIKHOVTSEVA (AO 00; 3-6 3-6) :lol: :lol: :lol:
Tauziat (Paris 00; 5-7, 2-6) :lol:
Pierce (IW 00; 2-6, 1-6) :lol:
Suarez (Amelia 00) :lol:
Seles (LA 01) :lol:
Shaughnessy (Sydney 02) :lol:
Schnyder (Charleston 02) :lol:
Rubin (LA 02) :lol:

Not even counting losses against the top players (Hingis, Venus, Davenport, Enna, Clijsters) :lol: :lol:


There were hundreds of players who thought feeding Graf's BH was a good idea......

Calimero377
Jul 13th, 2005, 06:03 PM
More like Wimbledon 1987... Sraight sets drubbing.. Or US Open 1987..

So nice knowing Martina was always able to at least win a set in all their finals, even during her burntout years of 88,89..

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Graf-Navratilova, Berlin 86: 6-2, 6-3 (Graf being 16 years old!)
Graf-Navratilova, Key Biscayne 87: 6-3, 6-2 (Graf being 17 years old!)
Graf-Navratilova, Tokyo 94: 6-4, 6-2

3 easy wins.

Whereas Navi's Wimbledon 87 win was very close: only 68-63 on points-played. At the 87 USO final Graf had fever and should not have played (actually her doctor didn't want her to play).

Calimero377
Jul 13th, 2005, 06:04 PM
well, what if andre's and steffi's children gonna play tennis and win all things. guess who would be there biggest fan(somehow thinks of the person obsessed with graf :lol: )


Well, I would be a big fan as well!

Calimero377
Jul 13th, 2005, 06:06 PM
Me neither. Most of the girls in todays tennis would destroy that backhand of Steffi.


How?

ys
Jul 13th, 2005, 06:07 PM
According to ESPN it was Kournikova not Likhovtseva

LMAO.. ESPN at its best..

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/tennis/news/story?id=2105730

Graf returns to tennis courts, loses to Kournikova twice :)
HOUSTON -- Anna Kournikova spoiled Steffi Graf's return to the tennis court, winning singles and doubles matches in a World TeamTennis Pro League match Tuesday night.

In a meet between Kournikova's Sacramento Capitals and the Houston Wranglers, Kournikova defeated Graf 5-4. In doubles, Kournikova and Elena Likhovtseva defeated Graf and Ansley Cargill, 5-2. The Capitals won the meet 21-18.

Timariot
Jul 13th, 2005, 06:09 PM
Again, all I'm saying is that Venus and Serena had in 1999 allready figured out how to play and defeat Steffi. I think power players were a bit more tricky for Graff. How else could one explain her loss to a far less experienced, but more powerful, player like Serena in the finals of IW?

Because Graf was past her prime? Because everyone loses sometimes? If they had figured out how to beat her, why they went 3-3 against her in 1999 instead of winning every time? By same argument you could claim that also Hingis, Davenport and JHD had "figured her out". Why one never sees anyone make that claim?

Calimero377
Jul 13th, 2005, 06:13 PM
I definitely think Venus and Serena would have totally dominated Steffi if she had not retired in '99. Steffi never had an easy winning match against Venus. And for Serena to beat her in only her second final says a lot. Neither was intimidated by Steffi and those score lines show it. And crazies can't say that Steffi wasn't still playing well b/c she won the FO that year and made the finals of Wimbledon. Perhaps the Williams Sisters also helped usher out Graff, just like they had a hand in ushering Hingis out of the game.


In 1999

1) Serena won USO
2) Venus was 19 years old and #3 in the rankings for months
3) Graf - with her completely reconstructed knee - could sustain only 50 % of her former training schedule and had bad losses (eg. to good old Halard, a player she usually spanked).

But Graf beat Venus at Wimbledon, overtook Serena and Venus in the WTA rankings and retired as #3.

Yeah, I would call that "Williamses ushering out Graf", Dumbo ....

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Calimero377
Jul 13th, 2005, 06:16 PM
An at her best Serena would beat an any year old Graf at her best.


Name the matches when Serena was at her best.
Important matches against top players.

Then we can discuss .... ;)

I bet you won't come up with any.
Always the same with Willy fans.
A big mouth - and nothing to follow up ...

Calimero377
Jul 13th, 2005, 06:22 PM
Roger plays topspin backhand as often as the slice. Graf does not even know how to hit a topspin backhand.


She played the TS BH when she needed it.
And won Wimbledon finals against Navi and Novi with it.
Just ask them. They won't have forgotten ...

Calimero377
Jul 13th, 2005, 06:25 PM
Whatever...The tour is ALOT more physically demanding than it was when Steffi was playing...



Oops, why this, sonny ... ?

DA FOREHAND
Jul 13th, 2005, 06:26 PM
:....time and time again. Players like Nalbandian, Hewitt exploited this too in their earlier matches with Roger.
__________________"

irrelevant...how many wins does Hewitt have against Roger in oh say the last 9 matches?....YOu're making no sense.

bobcat
Jul 13th, 2005, 06:28 PM
Steffi's backhand would have definitely held up against today's players. A lot of the top players, like Lindsay, absolutely hated Graf's backhand. On the men's tour, Rafter used to always hit a slice backhand too and that drove his opponents crazy even when he didn't come to net. Remember at the US Open last year when Jennifer beat Serena? Serena started to really get bothered when Jennifer began slicing the ball a lot. Graf's backhand is only a liability against a serve volley player, so I think her slice would be a lot less attackable by today's players because almost nobody comes to net anymore. The player who was most able to attack her backhand was Navratilova, who was not only a great net rusher, but also had a good lefty serve.

GogoGirl
Jul 13th, 2005, 06:33 PM
All,

I can't wait to view Steffi on the tube. She says she was nervous - yet - she hung in there.

I can't wait to see pics of that baby girl of her's and Andre's. All that Jaz. Jaden will be four in Oct right? And his 'lil sis two.

Calimero377
Jul 13th, 2005, 06:34 PM
Serena probably wouldn't be able to beat Graf in those matches...too good, I' m sure she would take a set though...

But someone whom definetely WOULD beat Graf for sure, is Enna...certainly at the Oz and French opens....Enna would be too good..


Peak Navi and peak Enna would be a danger for Graf indeed ...

blumaroo
Jul 13th, 2005, 06:43 PM
No one commented on the Doubles loss? Steffi lost to Elena/Anna who lost 5-1 against Gullickson +partner the day before?

G1Player2
Jul 13th, 2005, 06:46 PM
Yes, so much more physically demanding! :lol:

So, how many tournaments has Serena completed and won this year, last year, or even the year before that?

And, between celebrity appearances and parties, just how many weeks in succession or months out of the year does Serena train?

We know what Graf accomplished at a "less" demanding time in the history of the sport, --- at least 7 tournaments won over 11 consecutive years of a 17 year career. And, during that time, if this can be believed, she was even fitter than she appears in the photos above.

Much more physically demanding and ALOT more depth...

Oizo
Jul 13th, 2005, 06:47 PM
Great pics :worship: Go Steffi :D

zuluagafan
Jul 13th, 2005, 06:49 PM
wow she looks so good in those pics

TeamUSA#1
Jul 13th, 2005, 06:50 PM
Really, I don't know what some ppl are orgasmic about? Its' WTT. Not a real WTA event, and I would think that the current WTA players who play in this league{WTT} do not take it very seriously. EL took it easy on Graf out of respect, and wanting to give the fans their moneys worth!!
I agree that she looks great.


Please.... anyone who plays tennis knows, doesnt matter if it a match in your backyard with your neighbor or the US Open, you are out there playing to win. I am sure Elena really wanted to take the risk of losing to a 6 year retired player by not taking it seriously and taking it easy on Graf..... that is LAUGHABLE :lol:

G1Player2
Jul 13th, 2005, 06:52 PM
Steffi Graf won nearly HALF of those GS titles after the stabbing of World number one Monica Seles, and four in a row, coming of a drought of winning only 1 of 8, immediately after the Seles' stabbing.......

Graf's second greatest feat? Weeks at number one......and guess what? Graf reclaimed the number, BY DEFAULT, because of Monica's absence....she did not EARN it through her play......it was defacto handed to her......Seles' points dropped off because of absence.....


Not only did the senseless horrific stabbing by the deranged german fan literally ended Seles'glorious legendary tennis career BUT it also brought about some question marks on Graf's accomplishments after April 30, 1993.

Would Graf have won 11 more slams with Monica Seles around??? Would Graf have reclaimed the number one ranking with Seles around??? Remember, Monica Seles was the best female tennis player in the planet 3 years running at the time of the attack. By April 1993, there was no indication whatsoever suggesting that Seles was about to end her domination of women's tennis especially after beating Graf convincingly at the 1993 Aussie Open Finals...

Calimero377
Jul 13th, 2005, 07:00 PM
Steffi Graf won nearly HALF of those GS titles after the stabbing of World number one Monica Seles, and four in a row, coming of a drought of winning only 1 of 8, immediately after the Seles' stabbing.......

...


Monica Seles won EIGHT of her nine slams after the family blackmail scandal started. Actually her first slam win was exactly FOUR WEEKS after the scandal started.

Coincidence?


:haha: :haha:

G1Player2
Jul 13th, 2005, 07:03 PM
Monica Seles won EIGHT of her nine slams after the family blackmail scandal started. Actually her first slam win was exactly FOUR WEEKS after the scandal started.

Coincidence?


:haha: :haha:

:lol: :lol: :lol: Seles was dealing w/ the press and her native Yugoslavia torturing her for adopting the U.S as her new home. So what?

K-Dog
Jul 13th, 2005, 07:20 PM
Healthy peak Serena lost in 00/02 (= 3 years) to

LIKHOVTSEVA (AO 00; 3-6 3-6) :lol: :lol: :lol:
Tauziat (Paris 00; 5-7, 2-6) :lol:
Pierce (IW 00; 2-6, 1-6) :lol:
Suarez (Amelia 00) :lol:
Seles (LA 01) :lol:
Shaughnessy (Sydney 02) :lol:
Schnyder (Charleston 02) :lol:
Rubin (LA 02) :lol:

Not even counting losses against the top players (Hingis, Venus, Davenport, Enna, Clijsters) :lol: :lol:


There were hundreds of players who thought feeding Graf's BH was a good idea......

Um, Serena was in a sophomore slump in 2000 and mostly until Canada in 2001. The Likhotseva loss was inexcusable, period. Same goes for the Tauziat loss (even though she was injured). I seem to remember Pierce giving Steffi a bashing once, although there was some excuse for it right Cal? Against Suarez didn't Serena retire, against Seles she had 6 match points, vs. Shaughnessy she retired at 4-5 and missed the Oz that year, against Patty she had a match point, against Rubin she was leading up a break in the third and withdew from Canada the next week with a knee problem. Serena lost matches to Hingis, but she retired in Canada after bagelling her and had her beat in Australia in 2001 until Serena started to think about it too much, lots of people lost to Venus and they are sisters, Davenport beat her once from 2000-2003 until LA 2004, Steffi would've struggled against Justine on clay just like you have stated yourself, and the loss to Clijsters was after a win against Jennifer that exhausted both players and was the best match of the YEC that year. I don't seem to remember Serena ever losing to Arantxa was she was in the top five, not to mention easily (i don't care if she made 80 errors, that's how you loss matches).

I think that the posters who say to attack to Steffi's backhand are STUPID!! They know nothing about playing tennis then. That slice was so nasty and hard to deal with, Serena would've hit SO many shots into the net and gotten SO frustrated that she would've broken a couple of racquets.

On another subject, do you know how she got in such great shape after having two kids? What's her diet and work-out regimen? Do you have any clue Cali, because I need to shed 10 lbs. and add 5 lbs. of muscle before my next tennis season.

DA FOREHAND
Jul 13th, 2005, 07:22 PM
Much more physically demanding and ALOT more depth...

And you say this to suggest what? Keep in mind Lindsay Davenport is the current #1 player. Of the top twenty how many are better athletes than Steffi Graf? How many have better movement? Better footwork? .....How many have all three elements, and how many of those have won slams since Graf retired?

G1Player2
Jul 13th, 2005, 07:24 PM
And you say this to suggest what? Keep in mind Lindsay Davenport is the current #1 player. Of the top twenty how many are better athletes than Steffi Graf? How many have better movement? Better footwork? .....How many have all three elements, and how many of those have won slams since Graf retired?

graf was above and beyond as far as being a better athlete than the others in her era.

Today, we have Serena, Venus, JHH, Clijsters, Jennifer, Kuz, Dementieva, etc. All just about equal as far as physical prowess goes...

graf has no one who was even remotely equal because of their mediocrity...

rjd1111
Jul 13th, 2005, 07:32 PM
I agree.Graf is a better athlete with one of the best forehands ever,but i can't see her beating Rena with a BH like that.



I don't know where this is coming from But Venus and Serena are
the best Athletes that ever played womens Tennis. They are
Stronger, quicker, Faster than Graf ever could have been

Calimero377
Jul 13th, 2005, 07:35 PM
I don't know where this is coming from But Venus and Serena are
the best Athletes that ever played womens Tennis. They are
Stronger, quicker, Faster than Graf ever could have been



:haha: :haha:

Timariot
Jul 13th, 2005, 07:37 PM
graf was above and beyond as far as being a better athlete than the others in her era.

Today, we have Serena, Venus, JHH, Clijsters, Jennifer, Kuz, Dementieva, etc. All just about equal as far as physical prowess goes...

graf has no one who was even remotely equal because of their mediocrity...

Umm...right. She only had to content players like ASV (fittest player ever), Navratilova (greatest female athlete of the sport)...

Today, we have athletic Giants like notably chubby Capriati, always-injured and undertrained Serena, virus-weakened JHH...

Just a question, when did you began to watch tennis? Last year? Have you ever heard about a pro tennis players born before 1980?

Btw, Suzanne Lenglen would completely destroy any current top player... :devil:

canoe.
Jul 13th, 2005, 07:38 PM
Likhosteva is almost Top 15 today and Steffi hasn't played in 6 years!!!! GREAT RESULT!!!! She could easily be Top 10 again if she wanted. :rolls: :rolls:
Little too much :drink:?
These ardent Graf fans are starting scare me.

spartanfan
Jul 13th, 2005, 07:42 PM
I don't know where this is coming from But Venus and Serena are
the best Athletes that ever played womens Tennis. They are
Stronger, quicker, Faster than Graf ever could have been



:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:


Venus and Serena would totally have owned Graf if she didn't get scared and retire in '99.

Apoorv
Jul 13th, 2005, 07:43 PM
Graf lost her number one ranking not because of Seles. Remember she couldnt even reach to all grand slam finals in 90 and 91 which was quite unnatural looking at previous years. Seles should be thankful to Sabatini that she defeated graf so many times in 91 coz graf defeated seles more compared to how many times she lost to her in the same year. talking of so called convincing victory of seles of graf in aussie 93 final, then i would say wimbledon 92 final should also be taken into account.

But i want to take nothing away from seles, she definitely bettered graf in some matches and was a deserving number 1. Still people should not underestimate graf thinking her performance would never have improved. Graf of 91 had some personal and health problems, so she had lost confidence in herself. She always had the ability and will to beat anyone on court. If that crazy incident had not taken place in 93, we would have seen a great rivalry may be even more interesting and closer than nav-evert.

G1Player2
Jul 13th, 2005, 07:48 PM
Umm...right. She only had to content players like ASV (fittest player ever), Navratilova (greatest female athlete of the sport)...

Today, we have athletic Giants like notably chubby Capriati, always-injured and undertrained Serena, virus-weakened JHH...

Just a question, when did you began to watch tennis? Last year? Have you ever heard about a pro tennis players born before 1980?

Btw, Suzanne Lenglen would completely destroy any current top player... :devil:

ASV the fittest player ever...:lol:

Navratilova, the greatest female athlete of the sport, even though she was pushing 40...Yeah, that SAYS alot about tennis when a player closer to 40 than 30 is referred to as the "greatest" athlete...:lol:

Apoorv
Jul 13th, 2005, 07:48 PM
I don't know where this is coming from But Venus and Serena are
the best Athletes that ever played womens Tennis. They are
Stronger, quicker, Faster than Graf ever could have been


In 99 I read a headline "Graf beat Venus in a battle of wits". :devil:

tennispro105
Jul 13th, 2005, 07:50 PM
ok I was there so i'll give my opinion!
Steffi did AWESOME ok! you have to take into account that elena is also an excellent player who is 5 or 6 years younger than steffi, who is now at the peak of her career, and has been training a ton more than graf has recently! the fact that steffi was able to hang with a current top 20 player says a lot! and it's not like it was a blow out either! the tiebreaker they played at 4-4 was 5-4!

G1Player2
Jul 13th, 2005, 07:52 PM
I don't know where this is coming from But Venus and Serena are
the best Athletes that ever played womens Tennis. They are
Stronger, quicker, Faster than Graf ever could have been

I hate to admit it but I have to laugh w/ Calimero on this one...Graf is every bit as fast and quick as Venus and Serena...Venus, at her best, covers the court better than both of them MAINLY because of reach rather than foot speed...PEAK Serena is stronger than both of them but graf is CONSISTENTLY faster than Serena...

ys
Jul 13th, 2005, 07:53 PM
I don't know where this is coming from But Venus and Serena are
the best Athletes that ever played womens Tennis. They are
Stronger, quicker, Faster than Graf ever could have been

Bullshit about "quicker". Graf could have been an Olympic track and field athlete if she chose so. You were still sucking your mom's tit and making puddles under the table when Graf was 100% healthy and at her athletic best.

Even then. Sure. Jackie Joiner-Kersee was even better athlete than them. Would she make a better tennis player? Doubt it. Tennis is not only speed and power. It's also technique and thinking and finesse. Something that Williams sisters never really exceled in. And Graf did. Yes, Williams sisters brought into sport an unprecedented level of raw power. Serena also introduced us to unprecedented level of instruments of visual and audio intimidation. I doubt that it would have had a slightest effect on Graf though. Just like it had little affect on, say, Capriati...

tennispro105
Jul 13th, 2005, 07:55 PM
i definitely disagree on the fact that serena and venus were better atheletes than steffi. steffi was just as good or even better than both of them!

G1Player2
Jul 13th, 2005, 07:55 PM
Bullshit about "quicker". Graf could have been an Olympic track and field athlete if she chose so. You were still sucking your mom's tit and making puddles under the table when Graf was 100% healthy and at her athletic best.

Even then. Sure. Jackie Joiner-Kersee was even better athlete than them. Would she make a better tennis player? Doubt it. Tennis is not only speed and power. It's also technique and thinking and finesse. Something that Williams sisters never really exceled in. And Graf did. Yes, Williams sisters brought into sport an unprecedented level of raw power. Serena also introduced us to unprecedented level of instruments of visual and audio intimidation. I doubt that it would have had a slightest effect on Graf though. Just like it had little affect on, say, Capriati...

You are right about that...Considering the fact that Serena won 8 STRAIGHT times pre-surgery and has 9 of their last 12 meetings...:drool:

DA FOREHAND
Jul 13th, 2005, 07:55 PM
graf was above and beyond as far as being a better athlete than the others in her era.

Today, we have Serena, Venus, JHH, Clijsters, Jennifer, Kuz, Dementieva, etc. All just about equal as far as physical prowess goes...

graf has no one who was even remotely equal because of their mediocrity...


"Much more physically demanding and ALOT more depth... "

so what was your point? Certainly it wasn't that Steffi couldn't keep up in todays game, as you've stated the above players are just about equal to her physical prowess.

G1Player2
Jul 13th, 2005, 07:57 PM
"Much more physically demanding and ALOT more depth... "

so what was your point? Certainly it wasn't that Steffi couldn't keep up in todays game, as you've stated the above players are just about equal to her physical prowess.

Didn't say she couldn't compete in today's era, just that it would be tougher because must of the players today are PHYSICALLY and ATHLETICALLY just about equal to Graf unlike players like ASV, aging Navratilova and Evert, Novotna, or even Seles...

DA FOREHAND
Jul 13th, 2005, 07:58 PM
ASV the fittest player ever...:lol:

Navratilova, the greatest female athlete of the sport, even though she was pushing 40...Yeah, that SAYS alot about tennis when a player closer to 40 than 30 is referred to as the "greatest" athlete...:lol:


She wasn't born 40 dumbass! Were you alive in 1983-84? :rolleyes:

miranda_lou
Jul 13th, 2005, 08:00 PM
On another subject, do you know how she got in such great shape after having two kids? What's her diet and work-out regimen? Do you have any clue Cali, because I need to shed 10 lbs. and add 5 lbs. of muscle before my next tennis season.

Andre said that Steffi HAS TO exercise at least one hour per day for her "mental" health. Guess that happens when you have two babies.:kiss: :hearts:

Steffi said she stays in shape by "chasing after the kids.":lol:

At any rate, she has open a gym somewhere in Germany. It was in one of those German tabloids a month or two ago. She would have to stay in great shape if she's going to front a gym.

So, if you want to lose weight and add muscle, guess maybe you should have two babies, chase after them and then exercise for an hour everyday for your mental health.:lol:

Timariot
Jul 13th, 2005, 08:00 PM
ASV the fittest player ever...:lol:

Navratilova, the greatest female athlete of the sport, even though she was pushing 40...Yeah, that SAYS alot about tennis when a player closer to 40 than 30 is referred to as the "greatest" athlete...:lol:

Much like Agassi, at 35, is still at ATP top 10? ATP tour sucks! Bad ATP!

DA FOREHAND
Jul 13th, 2005, 08:01 PM
Didn't say she couldn't compete in today's era, just that it would be tougher because must of the players today are PHYSICALLY and ATHLETICALLY just about equal to Graf unlike players like ASV, aging Navratilova and Evert, Novotna, or even Seles...
And the # one player and arguably the best player right now is Lindsay Davenport....buy a vowel and get a clue.

LDVTennis
Jul 13th, 2005, 08:01 PM
One can only wonder why LDV has to attack the sisters at EVERY opportunity.

One thing I've to add, LDV wants to give us the impression that Roger's ( and thus Steffi's) game is perfect, because he can hit the slice, he can a forehand dtl from the backhand corner, etc....

But to me that's why Roger will have a VERY hard time winning RG....look at what Nadal was doing with Roger time and time at RG....Roger would insist in running around his backhand and then hit it inside out, thus to Nadal's forehand because Nadal is a lefty...consequence? The WHOLE forehand corner of Roger was open....bam, Nadal winner in the open court....time and time again. Players like Nalbandian, Hewitt exploited this too in their earlier matches with Roger.

Why does bandabou have to be so fixated on Henin (Enna) and Calimero's claim that she is the third greatest player at her peak that he completely overlooks the fact that it was not I who introduced Serena's or the W sister's name into this thread? Now, why is that?

If Roger's game is not anywhere near being perfect because he has yet to win RG, then, Graf's game by comparison must clearly have been as perfect as a game gets because for every Wimbledon she almost has a French title - 7 Wimbledons, 6 French.

Calimero377
Jul 13th, 2005, 08:01 PM
....
On another subject, do you know how she got in such great shape after having two kids? What's her diet and work-out regimen? Do you have any clue Cali, because I need to shed 10 lbs. and add 5 lbs. of muscle before my next tennis season.


You must have the right genes.

A lot of Barilla pasta and gummi bears will help too.

G1Player2
Jul 13th, 2005, 08:04 PM
And the # one player and arguably the best player right now is Lindsay Davenport....buy a vowel and get a clue.

Davenport has the biggest and most cleanest groundstrokes EVER in the women's game and possibly the men's (clean I mean). She doesn't need to be a fantastic athlete...

Seles, was #1 for years as well and she wasn't a great athelete...What's your point?

Calimero377
Jul 13th, 2005, 08:05 PM
ASV the fittest player ever...:lol:

Navratilova, the greatest female athlete of the sport, even though she was pushing 40...Yeah, that SAYS alot about tennis when a player closer to 40 than 30 is referred to as the "greatest" athlete...:lol:


Didn't a 45-year-old Navi beat a #21-ranked player 3 years ago?
:lol:

pcrtennis
Jul 13th, 2005, 08:06 PM
I don't understand why people over analyze this so much. It was Graf's first competitive match in 6 years, in a much different atmosphere. I think it's great she played and made it good to watch. Yet, some find the need to take this and analyze it to death by comparing her to other people and judging whether she was really ever that good. Just enjoy that she came back and shut up....

DA FOREHAND
Jul 13th, 2005, 08:07 PM
Davenport has the biggest and most cleanest groundstrokes EVER in the women's game and possibly the men's (clean I mean). She doesn't need to be a fantastic athlete...

Seles, was #1 for years as well and she wasn't a great athelete...What's your point?


My point is you don't have to be the greatest athlete to succeed on the WTA circuit.

All the best athletes especially on the womens tour...have multiple Wimbledon titles.

Calimero377
Jul 13th, 2005, 08:08 PM
Didn't say she couldn't compete in today's era, just that it would be tougher because must of the players today are PHYSICALLY and ATHLETICALLY just about equal to Graf unlike players like ASV, aging Navratilova and Evert, Novotna, or even Seles...


Davenport is #1 currently.

Enuff said ...

G1Player2
Jul 13th, 2005, 08:10 PM
Didn't a 45-year-old Navi beat a #21-ranked player 3 years ago?
:lol:

She played Panova...Panova sucks...She just lost to Hingis 0-5 in WTT, losses to Dulko, etc...

Her beating #21 ranked Panova, who is 5-1, 115 lbs, is nothing...I could beat her...

Now something that means something, is a woman closer to 40 than 30, winning slams, being at the top of the game, when she is OVER at LEAST 5 years beyond her peak and beating players who are 10-15 years older than her...Wasn't Nav combined 16-18 versus Graf/Seles and tied w/ Graf overall? Weren't they the two best players of the early 90ies while struggling against an aging player clearly past her prime and closer to 40 than 30?

G1Player2
Jul 13th, 2005, 08:10 PM
Davenport is #1 currently.

Enuff said ...

Seles was #1 for 3 straight years and plays a game similar to Davenport...

enuff said...

G1Player2
Jul 13th, 2005, 08:13 PM
My point is you don't have to be the greatest athlete to succeed on the WTA circuit.

All the best athletes especially on the womens tour...have multiple Wimbledon titles.

I never said you had to be the best athlete to be the most successful...I was just stating it is harder to be dominant, or at the top when so many players are equal to you or close to that level specifically physically and athletically...

Serena, Venus, JHH, Clijsters, Mauresmo, Capriati, Dementieva, Kuznetsova are not that much faster, stronger, or athletic than one another...

K-Dog
Jul 13th, 2005, 08:19 PM
You must have the right genes.

A lot of Barilla pasta and <a style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=24&k=gummi%20bears" onmouseover="window.status='gummi bears'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">gummi bears</a> will help too.

Thanks!! Well I found out yesterday that I don't have the genes. I have to work out SUPER hard to have a rock solid body. Apparently i was genetically predisposed to having a little bit of a gut and no matter how many crunches I do (which I do a lot since I hit open-stance) I will never have a six-pack. I apparantly have to run stairs at a football stadium to work away the fat that stores up in my mid-section. I know pasta is good, but gummi bears? I once ate a whole container of gummi bears (think over 1000 calories).

Larrybidd
Jul 13th, 2005, 08:19 PM
Steffi's result is fantastic. To come back to the sport after 6 years and 2 kids and nearly win a set vs. a top 15 players. I'd say I'm suprised, except I knew Steffi would not bother to come back to play competitively and embarrass herself.

Simply by way of contrast, What did Hingis do? She dipped a toe back into competitive tennis after a couple years off and lost comvincingly to some girl whose name excapes - but her ranking was not near 15.

ys
Jul 13th, 2005, 08:22 PM
[/b]

You are right about that...Considering the fact that Serena won 8 STRAIGHT times pre-surgery and has 9 of their last 12 meetings...:drool:

That said, I easily concede that she won those simply on being a better player here. Until she fattened she has always been a better player than Capriati, and though her intimidation methods didn't work with Capriati, being a better player was enough. But when she plays a better tennis player - like Davenport or Henin or Sharapova - she needs all her roars and looks..

Calimero377
Jul 13th, 2005, 08:23 PM
Seles was #1 for 3 straight years and plays a game similar to Davenport...

enuff said...



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Peak Seles was FAAAAAAR more mobile than Davenport was even at her absolute peak.


Similar game, OMG ..... :haha:

miranda_lou
Jul 13th, 2005, 08:25 PM
Jackie Joiner-Kersee was even better athlete than them. Would she make a better tennis player? Doubt it.

Jackie, in fact, tried to become a tennis player.:lol: Her coach/hubby, realizing her track and field career was coming to an end, wanted her to become a tennis player because she was such a great athlete (and he wanted to continue making money off her). The plan didn't work, for the reason stated.:tape: You have to be more than just a great athlete to win tennis matches.

ys
Jul 13th, 2005, 08:28 PM
Steffi's result is fantastic. To come back to the sport after 6 years and 2 kids and nearly win a set vs. a top 15 players.

I thought 45 yo Navratilova did take a set of a Top 15 player in 2002, right? Just factor in a bit of an awe factor when playing a legend, and you'll see that you should not read too much from it..

Stamp Paid
Jul 13th, 2005, 08:38 PM
Healthy peak Serena lost in 00/02 (= 3 years) to

LIKHOVTSEVA (AO 00; 3-6 3-6) :lol: :lol: :lol:
Tauziat (Paris 00; 5-7, 2-6) :lol:
Pierce (IW 00; 2-6, 1-6) :lol:
Suarez (Amelia 00) :lol:
Seles (LA 01) :lol:
Shaughnessy (Sydney 02) :lol:
Schnyder (Charleston 02) :lol:
Rubin (LA 02) :lol:

Not even counting losses against the top players (Hingis, Venus, Davenport, Enna, Clijsters) :lol: :lol:


There were hundreds of players who thought feeding Graf's BH was a good idea......

You liar! You know peak Serena starts at Scottsdale 2002 and ends at Wimbledon 2003! Plus the loss to Shaughnessy was an injury retirement.

rjd1111
Jul 13th, 2005, 08:39 PM
Name the matches when Serena was at her best.
Important matches against top players.

Then we can discuss .... ;)

I bet you won't come up with any.
Always the same with Willy fans.
A big mouth - and nothing to follow up ...


When the Sisters played their best Matches they were not noteworthy. They
made them look routine. Their forte was when they did not start at
their best. They were able to rise to another level and overcome.
Venus fighting off 8 match points against Cappy to win, Serena finding
another gear after being down 5-1 in the third set and reeling off Six in
a row to beat Kim, Serena fighting off match points against Scarapova
at the AO and make brilliant shots at the end to win. Then repeating that in the Finals with Linds. Venus after a tough first set with Maria going up 2
notches in the second set to Breadstick her. Maria did not cave, she continued to play well but the the way venus played that second set no one who ever lived would have beaten her. Not to mention her refuse to lose
match against linds in the finals.

Now Graf. Back in her peak years How many matches did she average over
100mph serves the whole match getting at least 70% firsts in. thats
what she would have to do against a Williams.
And back then how many of her opponets average 114mph serves the
whole match. Thats what the Williams would have done, 70% at their
best. And Steffi doesn't even want to think about their Returns.

G1Player2
Jul 13th, 2005, 08:39 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Peak Seles was FAAAAAAR more mobile than Davenport was even at her absolute peak.


Similar game, OMG ..... :haha:

Peak Seles was not FAAAAAR mobile than Davenport...DO you even watch tennis? Davenport gets to ALMOST to as many balls as PEAK Seles MAINLY because Davenport has GREAT footwork and REACH, REACH, REACH...

Meanwhile, Seles had a little more footspeed than Davenport, but it didn't matter as she still had trouble getting to alot of balls mainly because she had a two-handed shot off of both sides..

Similar game...Yes...similar BASIC game might I add...Both had HUGE groundstrokes and dominated from the baseline although Seles used the angles more...Both rarely come to the net although Davenport is better up there...Neither one was ever FAST and rely on their groundies to win matches unlike volleys, drop shots, lobs, slices, etc. They NEVER use these shots...

Stamp Paid
Jul 13th, 2005, 08:40 PM
Graf knew no such thing. Stop speaking as if you knew what she was thinking.

:haha: :haha: :haha:

LeRoy.
Jul 13th, 2005, 08:43 PM
:haha: :haha: :haha:

I know as if he knows :lol:

G1Player2
Jul 13th, 2005, 08:44 PM
That said, I easily concede that she won those simply on being a better player here. Until she fattened she has always been a better player than Capriati, and though her intimidation methods didn't work with Capriati, being a better player was enough. But when she plays a better tennis player - like Davenport or Henin or Sharapova - she needs all her roars and looks..

Serena leads Dav, Shar, JHH 16-7...16-4 non clay(not including injured Serena YEC)...Yeah, she needs ALL the roars and looks she can deliver to stand toe to toe with them...:lol:

ico4498
Jul 13th, 2005, 08:57 PM
i did a search on "cycling forum" to read what cycling fans were saying about Lance's lastest quest. found this ...

On 1 Apr 2005 09:25:22 -0800, "Calimero" |calimero377([at]gmx.de| wrote:

|Graf won 54 consecutive sets starting in January 1994.
|
|
|This must be a world record in the open era ...

here ... http://www.cycle-more.com/detail-673276.html

Calimero377
Jul 13th, 2005, 09:05 PM
You liar! You know peak Serena starts at Scottsdale 2002 and ends at Wimbledon 2003! Plus the loss to Shaughnessy was an injury retirement.



1) OK, let's limit Serena's "peak" to Scottsdale 02 until Wimbledon 03. About 17 months.

She had a 95-7 win/loss record in that time frame.
Losses to
Schnyder,
Enna (3)
Rubin
Clijsters
Mauresmo.

Only Enna is a slam winner. But at that stage she hadn't won a slam yet.
And no great slam final win. Best was a 6-4, 6-3 against big sis.


Let's compare this to peak Graf.

2) Graf peaked from Boca Raton 87 (March) until Hamburg 90 (April). 38 months.
She had a 253-7 win/loss record in that time frame (compare: Serena only 95-7 in 17 months).
Graf lost to
Navratilova (2)
Sabatini (3)
ASV
Shriver.

3) Graf best 17-month streak was from December 1988 until April 1990.
Her win/loss record was 107-2.
Losses against
Sabatini
ASV.
I don't see any Schnyder or Rubin types there ....

:worship: :worship:



Serena's 95-7
against Graf's 253-7 and 107-2.
Case closed.

:)

Stamp Paid
Jul 13th, 2005, 09:07 PM
1) OK, let's limit Serena's "peak" to Scottsdale 02 until Wimbledon 03. About 17 months.

She had a 95-7 win/loss record in that time frame.
Losses to
Schnyder,
Enna (3)
Rubin
Clijsters
Mauresmo.

Only Enna is a slam winner. But at that stage she hadn't won a slam yet.
And no great slam final win. Best was a 6-4, 6-3 against big sis.


Let's compare this to peak Graf.

2) Graf peaked from Boca Raton 87 (March) until Hamburg 90 (April). 38 months.
She had a 253-7 win/loss record in that time frame (compare: Serena only 95-7 in 17 months).
Graf lost to
Navratilova (2)
Sabatini (3)
ASV
Shriver.

3) Graf best 17-month streak was from December 1988 until April 1990.
Her win/loss record was 107-2.
Losses against
Sabatini
ASV.
I don't see any Schnyder or Rubin types there ....

:worship: :worship:



Serena's 95-7
against Graf's 253-7 and 107-2.
Case closed.

:)

lmao, you just wasted a lot of typing because I never suggested or would suggest that Serena's peak (which was only 17 months) was greater than or equal to Graf.

I just said you were lying about her peak period, which you admitted and corrected. Thank you. :)

G1Player2
Jul 13th, 2005, 09:08 PM
1) OK, let's limit Serena's "peak" to Scottsdale 02 until Wimbledon 03. About 17 months.

She had a 95-7 win/loss record in that time frame.
Losses to
Schnyder,
Enna (3)
Rubin
Clijsters
Mauresmo.

Only Enna is a slam winner. But at that stage she hadn't won a slam yet.
And no great slam final win. Best was a 6-4, 6-3 against big sis.


Let's compare this to peak Graf.

2) Graf peaked from Boca Raton 87 (March) until Hamburg 90 (April). 38 months.
She had a 253-7 win/loss record in that time frame (compare: Serena only 95-7 in 17 months).
Graf lost to
Navratilova (2)
Sabatini (3)
ASV
Shriver.

3) Graf best 17-month streak was from December 1988 until April 1990.
Her win/loss record was 107-2.
Losses against
Sabatini
ASV.
I don't see any Schnyder or Rubin types there ....

:worship: :worship:



Serena's 95-7
against Graf's 253-7 and 107-2.
Case closed.

:)

translation: no depth...

Also, how would JHH's "PEAK" record compared to Graf, or even Serena's gfor that matter...

Case closed!:lol:

Calimero377
Jul 13th, 2005, 09:14 PM
When the Sisters played their best Matches they were not noteworthy. They
made them look routine. Their forte was when they did not start at
their best. They were able to rise to another level and overcome.
Venus fighting off 8 match points against Cappy to win, Serena finding
another gear after being down 5-1 in the third set and reeling off Six in
a row to beat Kim, Serena fighting off match points against Scarapova
at the AO and make brilliant shots at the end to win. Then repeating that in the Finals with Linds. Venus after a tough first set with Maria going up 2
notches in the second set to Breadstick her. Maria did not cave, she continued to play well but the the way venus played that second set no one who ever lived would have beaten her. Not to mention her refuse to lose
match against linds in the finals.

Now Graf. Back in her peak years How many matches did she average over
100mph serves the whole match getting at least 70% firsts in. thats
what she would have to do against a Williams.
And back then how many of her opponets average 114mph serves the
whole match. Thats what the Williams would have done, 70% at their
best. And Steffi doesn't even want to think about their Returns.


You don't think Graf would have been able to at least squeak past Cappy or Clijsters types .... ?
:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:

Venus served harder in 98/99 than in later years. Nevertheless Graf (already over-the-hill) beat Venus comfortably at Wimbledon in 99.

Check Venus' serve speed stats. She never ever served with an average of 110+ mph. BTW, how did
Coetzer,
Dokic,
ASV,
Maleeva,
Schett,
Shaughnessy,
Testud
cope with Venus' serve in 2000/01? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Superdumbo ....

Calimero377
Jul 13th, 2005, 09:17 PM
Peak Seles was not FAAAAAR mobile than Davenport...DO you even watch tennis? ...

I watched them live several times.
Both.

Rewatch this year's Wimbledon final.
It was embarrassing sometimes how slow Davenport was.
Reminded me of 45-year-old George Foreman .....
:lol:

Calimero377
Jul 13th, 2005, 09:22 PM
i did a search on "cycling forum" to read what cycling fans were saying about Lance's lastest quest. found this ...

On 1 Apr 2005 09:25:22 -0800, "Calimero" |calimero377([at]gmx.de| wrote:

|Graf won 54 consecutive sets starting in January 1994.
|
|
|This must be a world record in the open era ...

here ... http://www.cycle-more.com/detail-673276.html


Rec.sport.tennis.
Usenet, Dumbo ...

alfajeffster
Jul 13th, 2005, 09:30 PM
This journeywoman took Graf to three sets at the end of 1998 Philly if you forget, an event Graf won.

I was there for that match, and while it was a tough 3-setter, it was obvious that Likhovtseva was playing out of her tree at Villanova, and Graf had yet to find her form. My great memory from this match was standing there on the sidelines (which I almost never do) and talking to Janella Rachelle (Graf's photographer for years), and all of a sudden Steffi was standing in front of me. I opened my "Game Set, Unmatched" U.S. Open coffee table book to the Legends page on Steffi, and she looked at it, assessed the best place to sign, and scrawled a huge sharpie signature over the quote "No players save Court and Navratilova have proved as great..."- VERY FUNNY, and needless to say I have it framed as it's the great photo of her leaning over one of her German Shepherds (see avatar).

Calimero377
Jul 13th, 2005, 09:33 PM
I was there for that match, and while it was a tough 3-setter, it was obvious that Likhovtseva was playing out of her tree at Villanova, and Graf had yet to find her form. My great memory from this match was standing there on the sidelines (which I almost never do) and talking to Janella Rachelle (Graf's photographer for years), and all of a sudden Steffi was standing in front of me. I opened my "Game Set, Unmatched" U.S. Open coffee table book to the Legends page on Steffi, and she looked at it, assessed the best place to sign, and scrawled a huge sharpie signature over the quote "No players save Court and Navratilova have proved as great..."- VERY FUNNY, and needless to say I have it framed as it's the great photo of her leaning over one of her German Shepherds (see avatar).


:lol:

LDVTennis
Jul 13th, 2005, 09:34 PM
Again, all I'm saying is that Venus and Serena had in 1999 allready figured out how to play and defeat Steffi. I think power players were a bit more tricky for Graff. How else could one explain her loss to a far less experienced, but more powerful, player like Serena in the finals of IW? Steffi, had far more experience and one of the "greatest" games in the history of the sport and still lost. I think all arrows were pointing to a future domination of her by Serena and Venus. And you criticize how often the Sisters play and workout, but maybe if Graf hadn't played so many tournaments her body would have held up better and longer or maybe it was her training regime in the first place that led to her injuries and surgeries? Or may everyone is built different and hold up differently, regardless of training, conditioning or fitness. Just a thought.

You have an answer for everything, don't you? Except your answers just keep generating more questions.

If Venus and Serena in 1999 had already figured out how to beat Steffi, then why didn't they beat her everytime they faced her? Let's put the cards on the table, shall we. Steffi was past her peak, trying desperately to regain her form, recovering from various injuries (almost one after the other), mentally unsure of herself, not well-trained; yet, despite all that, she still found a way of beating two players who were physically and mentally fresh and who, according to you, knew just how to beat her. So, what gives?

If Steffi was really bothered by power, why is it that Monica Seles never beat her at Wimbledon or ever held an advantage (head to head) against her on faster surfaces? Monica not only hit with power, but with precision, something the W Sisters have always lacked.

And, if Steffi really overtrained, why is that her body held up longer, 14 years, to the rigors of the tour than Serena's? Steffi sustained her knee injury in '96, 14 years after her major debut at the '83 AO. Serena sustained her knee injury after only 6 years of playing her first major, '98 AO to '03 Wimbledon.

And, since when is offcourt training a bad thing? Is it only a bad thing when you are fan of Serena? Steffi was an athlete of the highest order. She got there and stayed there for a very long time by training. To be sure, she may have had a genetic advantage over lesser mortals, but without the training she never would have seized on that advantage. Today, she looks as good as she does primarily because she has such good genetics. Will Serena be so lucky at 36 to look that good, particularly in light of her reluctance now to train like a topflight athlete?

YourBoyDan
Jul 13th, 2005, 10:10 PM
I don't know where this is coming from But Venus and Serena are
the best Athletes that ever played womens Tennis. They are
Stronger, quicker, Faster than Graf ever could have been

LOL---YEAH RIGHT :lol: :lol: :lol:

rjd1111
Jul 14th, 2005, 02:26 AM
You don't think Graf would have been able to at least squeak past Cappy or Clijsters types .... ?
:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:

Venus served harder in 98/99 than in later years. Nevertheless Graf (already over-the-hill) beat Venus comfortably at Wimbledon in 99.

Check Venus' serve speed stats. She never ever served with an average of 110+ mph. BTW, how did
Coetzer,
Dokic,
ASV,
Maleeva,
Schett,
Shaughnessy,
Testud
cope with Venus' serve in 2000/01? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Superdumbo ....


Listen Calimari, A 14 year old Cappy took Steffi to 3 sets and at 16 beat
her for the gold medal, All at grafs peak in 90 & 92. A more matured,
Harder hitting Cappy would have no problem. Kim only loses to 3 players
consistantly and Graf ain't one of em.

And Mary Jo mentioned when calling the Wimby final that Venus was
averaging 103mph, down from her usual 114. And how many times
must someone tell you that the 99 Williams Sisters was not the later
Sisters. They learned and got much Better. Everyone loses once in
a while no matter how good they are. Look at her H2H with all those
on that list.
ASV : Venus took her to 3 sets in her first pro Tourny at 14.

LDVTennis
Jul 14th, 2005, 02:38 AM
[QUOTE=rjd1111]Listen Calimari, A 14 year old Cappy took Steffi to 3 sets and at 16 beat
her for the gold medal, All at grafs peak in 90 & 92. A more matured,
Harder hitting Cappy would have no problem. Kim only loses to 3 players
consistantly and Graf ain't one of em.

Steffi's peak years were '88-'89 and '96.

Not to say that she didn't manage to play well during other periods of her career. Everything is relative.

tennisrox
Jul 14th, 2005, 03:56 AM
I don't know where this is coming from But Venus and Serena are
the best Athletes that ever played womens Tennis. They are
Stronger, quicker, Faster than Graf ever could have been

What???I agree that they are great athletes,but graf was the ultimate!Maybe they are stronger but NO WAY are they faster.Graf was known to be as quick as an olympic sprinter,and they said that she could have easily changed her career to sprinting,she was that good!They even timed her. :worship:

ys
Jul 14th, 2005, 04:01 AM
What???I agree that they are great athletes,but graf was the ultimate!Maybe they are stronger but NO WAY are they faster.Graf was known to be as quick as an olympic sprinter,and they said that she could have easily changed her career to sprinting,she was that good!They even timed her. :worship:

Absolutely. Though it is still remarkable how quick can Serena move with that huge ass of her..:worship:

tennisrox
Jul 14th, 2005, 04:05 AM
Absolutely. Though it is still remarkable how quick can Serena move with that huge ass of her..:worship:

It is remarkable.Shows what a good athlete she is.Thats why they predicted that Venus would last longer than rena because once she ages serena will have problems with her mobility because she is so big.This is why she is having so many injury problems.

polishprodigy
Jul 14th, 2005, 04:08 AM
The fact that Graf pushed Likhovsteva to a tiebreaker WTT style is an accomplishment in itself. I didn't know she would be playing Elena L , but that is a great result for Graf. Elena L btw is not the best player to play - she has had some really shitty losses and some surprisingly good results as well.

matthieu_tennis
Jul 14th, 2005, 04:12 AM
Venus seems to run very fast because she has a so long reach ;P with her arms

tennisrox
Jul 14th, 2005, 04:14 AM
Venus seems to run very fast because she has a so long reach ;P with her arms

Thats true.Venus is not the most graceful mover and is a very messy looking player to watch.She makes up for it with her long arms.Graf on the other hand was the most graceful of movers. :worship:

Knizzle
Jul 14th, 2005, 04:16 AM
Thats true.Venus is not the most graceful mover and is a very messy looking player to watch.She makes up for it with her long arms.Graf on the other hand was the most graceful of movers. :worship:

Grace doesn't equal speed though. Speed = distance over time.

tennisrox
Jul 14th, 2005, 04:20 AM
Steffi did have distance over time.Most definitely.Venus does too.But i don't like watching her move.

ys
Jul 14th, 2005, 04:28 AM
Steffi did have distance over time.Most definitely.Venus does too.But i don't like watching her move.

I agree, sometimes while moving she does look like an alien whose limbs can twist and turn at any angle while moving..

Knizzle
Jul 14th, 2005, 04:35 AM
I agree, sometimes while moving she does look like an alien whose limbs can twist and turn at any angle while moving..

Alien being the operative word here.

rjd1111
Jul 14th, 2005, 04:35 AM
What???I agree that they are great athletes,but graf was the ultimate!Maybe they are stronger but NO WAY are they faster.Graf was known to be as quick as an olympic sprinter,and they said that she could have easily changed her career to sprinting,she was that good!They even timed her. :worship:



Venus was undefeated in 19 track meets. Sprints and the mile.
Her mother made her choose between Track and Tennis.
An expert said before the last olympics that if Venus and Serena
would stop tennis and train they would win several gold medals
in track

tennisrox
Jul 14th, 2005, 04:39 AM
Venus was undefeated in 19 track meets. Sprints and the mile.
Her mother made her choose between Track and Tennis.
An expert said before the last olympics that if Venus and Serena
would stop tennis and train they would win several gold medals
in track

Thats interesting.I didn't know that. :)

backhanddtl4
Jul 14th, 2005, 04:41 AM
Wow....Cali is worse than a Williams sister, blaming losses on injuries and all.

Stamp Paid
Jul 14th, 2005, 05:26 AM
lmao, they said that if Steffi had chosen to become a sprinter, she would easily place on the West German Olympic track squad. Now when is the last time that you have seen a German champion sprinter? :lol: :lol: Maybe in Hitler days. :lol: :lol:

Stamp Paid
Jul 14th, 2005, 05:27 AM
Absolutely. Though it is still remarkable how quick can Serena move with that huge ass of her..:worship:

Serena, Florence griffith-Joyner, Allyson Felix, :drool:

grafan92
Jul 14th, 2005, 07:48 AM
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5435320.jpg
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5435308.jpg
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5435306.jpg
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5435309.jpg
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5435322.jpg
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5435319.jpg
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5435317.jpg
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5435315.jpg
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5435314.jpg
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5435312.jpg
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5435311.jpg
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5435307.jpg

ceiling_fan
Jul 14th, 2005, 07:51 AM
i think it was a good effort to get a tight match in win a current top 20-er!! so its no very upsetting

vutt
Jul 14th, 2005, 07:57 AM
lmao, they said that if Steffi had chosen to become a sprinter, she would easily place on the West German Olympic track squad. Now when is the last time that you have seen a German champion sprinter? :lol: :lol: Maybe in Hitler days. :lol: :lol:

Well, during '80 DDR womens team was very strong. You seems to be quite young so I forgive you :angel:

grafan92
Jul 14th, 2005, 07:59 AM
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5444322.jpg
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5444306.jpg
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5444256.jpg
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5444255.jpg
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5444254.jpg
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5444252.jpg
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5444251.jpg
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5444246.jpg
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5444245.jpg
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5444244.jpg
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5444243.jpg
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5444242.jpg
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5444239.jpg
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5444238.jpg
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5444237.jpg
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5444224.jpg
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5444223.jpg
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5444218.jpg
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5444215.jpg
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5444212.jpg
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5444209.jpg
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5444208.jpg
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5444207.jpg
http://web.**************/images/thumbnail/5444206.jpg

bandabou
Jul 14th, 2005, 10:05 AM
Why does bandabou have to be so fixated on Henin (Enna) and Calimero's claim that she is the third greatest player at her peak that he completely overlooks the fact that it was not I who introduced Serena's or the W sister's name into this thread? Now, why is that?

If Roger's game is not anywhere near being perfect because he has yet to win RG, then, Graf's game by comparison must clearly have been as perfect as a game gets because for every Wimbledon she almost has a French title - 7 Wimbledons, 6 French.

So....what do I hear, Roger's game isn't perfect afterall? Hmm......

About Enna, you never dispute Cali's claim, so as the saying goes: he who remains silent, agrees...

CooCooCachoo
Jul 14th, 2005, 10:09 AM
Upset? :tape: :tape: :tape:

Dennis
Jul 14th, 2005, 12:47 PM
Graf pre-1990 had excellent 1H topspin backhand, almost as good as Justine today. In her later years, she sliced almost exclusively.

Really, I hate all these idiots "modern players would beat Graf because they would hit to her backhand" as if NO ONE in 14 or so years when Graf was a top player figured that out... :rolleyes:

Graf hitting a top spin backhand looks so unnatural and awkward.
How meny top players today hit one handed slice backhand as Graf. I think noone ! Why ? They would have no chance !

Dennis
Jul 14th, 2005, 12:49 PM
How?

They would destroy Grafs defensive slice backhand with their powerfull 2 handed backhands. Remember Pierce French open SF ?!

HotSpot
Jul 14th, 2005, 12:54 PM
http://tinypic.com/72wphl.jpg

http://tinypic.com/72wpid.jpg





i love her legs....:hearts: :hearts: :hearts:

spartanfan
Jul 14th, 2005, 03:11 PM
You have an answer for everything, don't you? Except your answers just keep generating more questions.

If Venus and Serena in 1999 had already figured out how to beat Steffi, then why didn't they beat her everytime they faced her? Let's put the cards on the table, shall we. Steffi was past her peak, trying desperately to regain her form, recovering from various injuries (almost one after the other), mentally unsure of herself, not well-trained; yet, despite all that, she still found a way of beating two players who were physically and mentally fresh and who, according to you, knew just how to beat her. So, what gives?

If Steffi was really bothered by power, why is it that Monica Seles never beat her at Wimbledon or ever held an advantage (head to head) against her on faster surfaces? Monica not only hit with power, but with precision, something the W Sisters have always lacked.

And, if Steffi really overtrained, why is that her body held up longer, 14 years, to the rigors of the tour than Serena's? Steffi sustained her knee injury in '96, 14 years after her major debut at the '83 AO. Serena sustained her knee injury after only 6 years of playing her first major, '98 AO to '03 Wimbledon.

And, since when is offcourt training a bad thing? Is it only a bad thing when you are fan of Serena? Steffi was an athlete of the highest order. She got there and stayed there for a very long time by training. To be sure, she may have had a genetic advantage over lesser mortals, but without the training she never would have seized on that advantage. Today, she looks as good as she does primarily because she has such good genetics. Will Serena be so lucky at 36 to look that good, particularly in light of her reluctance now to train like a topflight athlete?


So now you know Serena's training regiment? All I'm saying with respect to training and injuries is that they are unpredictable, and can happen to the best trained and cautious of players, including Venus and Serena and Steffi. And if Steffi was so "past her peak" why did she continue to play tennis? And I like how you fail to mention that that same year she was "past her peak", she still made the finals of IW, a major tier I, and lost to Serena in the process (giving Serena only her SECOND title of her career and only her second final appearance) and Steffi also made it to the finals of the French (which she won) and Wimbledon (which she lost to Davenport). I don't think someone who accomplished these things should be so easily dismissed like you are trying to do in trying to explain Graff's losses at that point. Just accept the fact that. And what Venus and Serena lacked in precision in the placement of their shots, they more than made up for it with their speed and movement, power, serve and ability to take things out of the air, like no other at that time and their ability to come to net when needed. Why else or how else do you explain the Sisters dominance of Seles? Seles is like 2-12 over the sisters. While Seles ushered in the power game, Venus and Serena took it over and several levels past where Monicas was. And if Monica with her big game was Graf's main advesary, imagine what Venus and Serena would have done to Graf if she didn't tuck and run? Venus had a 2-3 head to head with Graf. The first time they played was in 96 and Graf won in two tite sets 6-4,6-4, they didn't play again until 1999 and then played 4 times, splitting matches 2-2. The two times Graf won were both 6-4 in the third set. Venus beat Graf in one match 6-2, 6-4 (and man would I like to see that match!). Serena lost the first time she played Graf, 7-5 in the third, but BEAT Graf the next time 7-5 in the third. With Graf's wicked slice backhand and all!!

In the final analysis, Venus and Serena would have just gotten that much more comfortable playing Graf and come to eaten her alive, wicked sliced backhand and all, showing they were not that intimidated or threatened by her legendary status as a tennis legend.

rjd1111
Jul 14th, 2005, 03:21 PM
Well, during '80 DDR womens team was very strong. You seems to be quite young so I forgive you :angel:


How many Gold medals did they win in the Olympics?

ys
Jul 14th, 2005, 03:23 PM
lmao, they said that if Steffi had chosen to become a sprinter, she would easily place on the West German Olympic track squad. Now when is the last time that you have seen a German champion sprinter? :lol: :lol: Maybe in Hitler days. :lol: :lol:

Ever heard of Heike Drechsler?

rjd1111
Jul 14th, 2005, 03:26 PM
So now you know Serena's training regiment? All I'm saying with respect to training and injuries is that they are unpredictable, and can happen to the best trained and cautious of players, including Venus and Serena and Steffi. And if Steffi was so "past her peak" why did she continue to play tennis? And I like how you fail to mention that that same year she was "past her peak", she still made the finals of IW, a major tier I, and lost to Serena in the process (giving Serena only her SECOND title of her career and only her second final appearance) and Steffi also made it to the finals of the French (which she won) and Wimbledon (which she lost to Davenport). I don't think someone who accomplished these things should be so easily dismissed like you are trying to do in trying to explain Graff's losses at that point. Just accept the fact that. And what Venus and Serena lacked in precision in the placement of their shots, they more than made up for it with their speed and movement, power, serve and ability to take things out of the air, like no other at that time and their ability to come to net when needed. Why else or how else do you explain the Sisters dominance of Seles? Seles is like 2-12 over the sisters. While Seles ushered in the power game, Venus and Serena took it over and several levels past where Monicas was. And if Monica with her big game was Graf's main advesary, imagine what Venus and Serena would have done to Graf if she didn't tuck and run? Venus had a 2-3 head to head with Graf. The first time they played was in 96 and Graf won in two tite sets 6-4,6-4, they didn't play again until 1999 and then played 4 times, splitting matches 2-2. The two times Graf won were both 6-4 in the third set. Venus beat Graf in one match 6-2, 6-4 (and man would I like to see that match!). Serena lost the first time she played Graf, 7-5 in the third, but BEAT Graf the next time 7-5 in the third. With Graf's wicked slice backhand and all!!

In the final analysis, Venus and Serena would have just gotten that much more comfortable playing Graf and come to eaten her alive, wicked sliced backhand and all, showing they were not that intimidated or threatened by her legendary status as a tennis legend.


AMEN

ys
Jul 14th, 2005, 04:07 PM
In the final analysis, Venus and Serena would have just gotten that much more comfortable playing Graf and come to eaten her alive, wicked sliced backhand and all, showing they were not that intimidated or threatened by her legendary status as a tennis legend.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

Graf never lost to them in a Grand Slam. With reconstrcuted knee. Fact.
They never ever came anywhere close to winning a Grand Slam in which Graf played. With reconstructed knee. Fact.

They started winning Grand Slams only after she retired. Fact.

spartanfan
Jul 14th, 2005, 04:13 PM
Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

Graf never lost to them in a Grand Slam. With reconstrcuted knee. Fact.
They never ever came anywhere close to winning a Grand Slam in which Graf played. With reconstructed knee. Fact.

They started winning Grand Slams only after she retired. Fact.


They would have started winning GSs regardless of when Graf tucked tailed and ran into retirement. Isn't it amazing how some crazed Graf fans couldn't/can't see the light like Graf obviously could. The sisters were the next really big challenge for Graf, she knew it and wanted no part of it, so she retired, plain and simple. Now get over it allready.

G-Ha
Jul 14th, 2005, 04:29 PM
They would have started winning GSs regardless of when Graf tucked tailed and ran into retirement. Isn't it amazing how some crazed Graf fans couldn't/can't see the light like Graf obviously could. The sisters were the next really big challenge for Graf, she knew it and wanted no part of it, so she retired, plain and simple. Now get over it allready.

And isn't it amazing that some crazed Williams fans think that the Williams sisters ushered Steffi out of the sport? Nope it wasn't the fact that after a 17 year career, Steffi had had enough...nope, not the fact that she was tired of dealing with debilitating injuries...nope, not the chance that at age 30, she wanted to start a family...it was the Williams sisters that pushed her out. LMAO! The idea that Steffi, winner of 22 Grand Slams, with wins over both sisters during her last year on tour, was afraid of the Williams sisters! :lol: Thanks for the comic relief.

G1Player2
Jul 14th, 2005, 04:37 PM
Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

Graf never lost to them in a Grand Slam. With reconstrcuted knee. Fact.
They never ever came anywhere close to winning a Grand Slam in which Graf played. With reconstructed knee. Fact.

They started winning Grand Slams only after she retired. Fact.

graf NEVER played Serena in a Grand Slam...Fact....Serena had ONLY played in 5 SLAM events before the US Open 99' and Graf didn't EVEN play most of those in 1998. (Serena was 16.). So your theory of them not even coming close to winning a slam which Graf played is debunked...Graf had nothing to do with her losses...

Graf retired RIGHT before the US Open, and even if she had played, with the way Serena was playing, it wouldn't have mattered...(ask Hingis, Davenport, Conchita, Seles, Clijsters.)

Graf BEAT Venus in the ONLY slam they played and said "she never had to work so hard in a match." This was BEFORE Venus was at anywhere NEAR her "PEAK."

Serena beat GRAF in their LAST matchup at age 17...

Let's put it this way, Serena and Venus were able to beat Graf and Graf had wins over them as well...

No telling what graf would have done to the likes of Demented, Sharapova, and Myskina:wavey:

Remember, the other pretty Russian who was CLEARLY dominated by Graf even when she was playing well?

bandabou
Jul 14th, 2005, 04:45 PM
Comparison is senseless....Graf was great during her era and has acomplished much much much more than either sister will probably ever achieve. But I think the older Grafans acting like the sisters are slouchs who don't have any tennis skills, this despite their already impressive record, are pushing it too. Because history shows that talent alone will only bring you so far, you still have to get it done when it matters.

alfajeffster
Jul 14th, 2005, 04:56 PM
Comparison is senseless....Graf was great during her era and has acomplished much much much more than either sister will probably ever achieve...

What amazes me is how HUGE the response and interest in Graf is, even 6 years after she played her last match. It's not like she's made some kind of effort to remain in the spotlight- to the contrary- she's actually made a concerted effort to keep herself, her home life, and especially her children out of the media circus these past 6 years. And here she is playing one WTT set and look at the firestorm! Even after ChrisAmerica retired in 1989, you didn't see this kind of reaction to one set. I guess we'll just have to compare Steffi to Garbo (who retired from film in 1942 and found herself still hounded by fans and the media nearly 50 years later) and be done with it!:lol:

bandabou
Jul 14th, 2005, 05:01 PM
What amazes me is how HUGE the response and interest in Graf is, even 6 years after she played her last match. It's not like she's made some kind of effort to remain in the spotlight- to the contrary- she's actually made a concerted effort to keep herself, her home life, and especially her children out of the media circus these past 6 years. And here she is playing one WTT set and look at the firestorm! Even after ChrisAmerica retired in 1989, you didn't see this kind of reaction to one set. I guess we'll just have to compare Steffi to Garbo (who retired from film in 1942 and found herself still hounded by fans and the media nearly 50 years later) and be done with it!:lol:

:lol: Thing is that somee Graf-fans, , have NO respect for other players except Graf.

LDV finds the sisters a disgrace for the tennis sport.

Cali, well...just cali.

Albireo
Jul 14th, 2005, 05:14 PM
Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

Graf never lost to them in a Grand Slam. With reconstrcuted knee. Fact.
They never ever came anywhere close to winning a Grand Slam in which Graf played. With reconstructed knee. Fact.

They started winning Grand Slams only after she retired. Fact.

They would have started winning GSs regardless of when Graf tucked tailed and ran into retirement. Isn't it amazing how some crazed Graf fans couldn't/can't see the light like Graf obviously could. The sisters were the next really big challenge for Graf, she knew it and wanted no part of it, so she retired, plain and simple. Now get over it allready.

http://images5.theimagehosting.com/8531.jpg

Calimero377
Jul 14th, 2005, 05:25 PM
Venus was undefeated in 19 track meets. Sprints and the mile.
Her mother made her choose between Track and Tennis.
An expert said before the last olympics that if Venus and Serena
would stop tennis and train they would win several gold medals
in track


Let me guess: The "expert" was American and his "expertise" was provided by IMG .... ?

Timariot
Jul 14th, 2005, 05:41 PM
So now you know Serena's training regiment? All I'm saying with respect to training and injuries is that they are unpredictable, and can happen to the best trained and cautious of players, including Venus and Serena and Steffi. And if Steffi was so "past her peak" why did she continue to play tennis? And I like how you fail to mention that that same year she was "past her peak", she still made the finals of IW, a major tier I, and lost to Serena in the process (giving Serena only her SECOND title of her career and only her second final appearance) and Steffi also made it to the finals of the French (which she won) and Wimbledon (which she lost to Davenport). I don't think someone who accomplished these things should be so easily dismissed like you are trying to do in trying to explain Graff's losses at that point. Just accept the fact that.


This is really funny. You claim that Graf (with 1 title win and 30-9 match record) was at her prime at 1999; and yet Serena (1 Slam, 4 other titles and 41-7 record) was NOT at her prime. That's some wicked logic, no?

And you're making a big deal about Serena's win over Graf (7-5 in the third) and TOTALLY ignoring Halard-Decuqis AWESOME win over Graf very same year. It's a good thing that Graf retired, otherwise JHD who was not a tiny bit indimidated by her, would have completely destroyed her in the future by attacking her weak backhand...

spartanfan, you are the embodiment of clueless...

Timariot
Jul 14th, 2005, 05:42 PM
What amazes me is how HUGE the response and interest in Graf is, even 6 years after she played her last match. It's not like she's made some kind of effort to remain in the spotlight- to the contrary- she's actually made a concerted effort to keep herself, her home life, and especially her children out of the media circus these past 6 years. And here she is playing one WTT set and look at the firestorm! Even after ChrisAmerica retired in 1989, you didn't see this kind of reaction to one set.

Well, WTAWorld didn't exist yet so...

Good thing for Chrissie, otherwise awesome tennis Experts of the 'net would have totally proved that Amanda Coetzer would have eaten her alive.

Calimero377
Jul 14th, 2005, 05:50 PM
They would destroy Grafs defensive slice backhand with their powerfull 2 handed backhands. Remember Pierce French open SF ?!


Remember USO 93 and Paris Indoors 95 (Pierce)?
Remember San Antonio 91 and Wimbledon 92 (Seles)?
Remember FO 99 (Davenport & Seles & Hingis)?
Remember Wimbledon 99 (Venus)?

You obviously never played tennis against a player with a GOOD slice backhand. You have to scratch the ball from the court to hit it back. Destroy? OK, you might be able to destroy the net with your "powerful 2-handed backhands" ... :lol:

Calimero377
Jul 14th, 2005, 06:03 PM
They would have started winning GSs regardless of when Graf tucked tailed and ran into retirement. Isn't it amazing how some crazed Graf fans couldn't/can't see the light like Graf obviously could. The sisters were the next really big challenge for Graf, she knew it and wanted no part of it, so she retired, plain and simple. Now get over it allready.


WTA rankings as of

I. November 30, 1998

1) Davenport
2) Hingis
3) Novotna
4) ASV
5) V. Williams
....
9) Graf


II. May 31,1999

1) Hingis
2) Davenport
3) Seles
4) Novotna
5) V. Williams
6) Graf


III. August 13, 1999 (Graf Retirement Day)

1) Davenport
2) Hingis
3) Graf
4) V. Williams
5) Seles


Venus was 19 years old. Peak prime age. And overtaken by grandma Graf (with reconstructed knee) in the rankings .... :lol:

Calimero377
Jul 14th, 2005, 06:12 PM
graf NEVER played Serena in a Grand Slam...Fact....Serena had ONLY played in 5 SLAM events before the US Open 99' and Graf didn't EVEN play most of those in 1998. (Serena was 16.). So your theory of them not even coming close to winning a slam which Graf played is debunked...Graf had nothing to do with her losses...

Graf retired RIGHT before the US Open, and even if she had played, with the way Serena was playing, it wouldn't have mattered...(ask Hingis, Davenport, Conchita, Seles, Clijsters.)
...

Serena at USO 1999:
128 W **Kimberly PO (USA) 6-1 6-0
64 W **Jelena KOSTANIC (CRO) 6-4 6-2
32 W **Kim CLIJSTERS (BEL) 4-6 6-2 7-5
16 W **Conchita MARTINEZ (ESP) 4-6 6-2 6-2
QF W **Monica SELES (USA) 4-6 6-3 6-2
SF W **Lindsay DAVENPORT (USA) 6-4 1-6 6-4
FR W **Martina HINGIS (SUI) 6-3 7-6


Graf had beaten Clijsters 6-2 6-2 in Wimbledon just 2 months earlier.
Graf is 13-1 H2H against Martinez.
Graf is 10-5 H2H against Seles, beat her at FO just 3 months earlier.
Graf is 8-6 H2H against Davenport, beat her at FO just 3 months earlier.
Graf is 7-2 h2H against Hingis, beat her at FO just 3 months earlier.

Which of Serena's USO 99 results Graf would not have been able to emulate?
And I'm not even speaking of peak Graf .....

Calimero377
Jul 14th, 2005, 06:16 PM
:lol: Thing is that somee Graf-fans, , have NO respect for other players except Graf.

LDV finds the sisters a disgrace for the tennis sport.

Cali, well...just cali.


Cali has respect for a lot of players.

Goolagong, Evert, Navi, Sabatini, Enna among others ....

LDVTennis
Jul 14th, 2005, 06:17 PM
So....what do I hear, Roger's game isn't perfect afterall? Hmm......

About Enna, you never dispute Cali's claim, so as the saying goes: he who remains silent, agrees...

You are ridiculous.

You introduced the premise that Roger's game wasn't perfect because he had yet to win the French Open. But, now you pretend as if it was my original premise.

I could have challenged that premise, but since you made the mistake of associating perfection with the ability to win at the French I thought I'd bring it to your attention how you had just ended up making a case for why Steffi's game was perfect.

In reality, I think both their games are close to perfect as one can get. All the keys to domination are there: forehand from the backhand corner (inside-out and dtl), ability to hit an aggressive forehand from the midcourt, slice backhand, Twist serve to the AD Court, footwork, and speed. Roger has it, Sampras had it, Steffi had it. All dominated their eras like few else had.

To win the French, Roger has to learn to outlast Nadal. It is what Steffi had to do to win against ASV.

Calimero377
Jul 14th, 2005, 06:19 PM
What amazes me is how HUGE the response and interest in Graf is, even 6 years after she played her last match. It's not like she's made some kind of effort to remain in the spotlight- to the contrary- she's actually made a concerted effort to keep herself, her home life, and especially her children out of the media circus these past 6 years. And here she is playing one WTT set and look at the firestorm! Even after ChrisAmerica retired in 1989, you didn't see this kind of reaction to one set. I guess we'll just have to compare Steffi to Garbo (who retired from film in 1942 and found herself still hounded by fans and the media nearly 50 years later) and be done with it!:lol:



Graf has a mystique no other player has or had (exeption of course: Lenglen).

spartanfan
Jul 14th, 2005, 06:21 PM
This is really funny. You claim that Graf (with 1 title win and 30-9 match record) was at her prime at 1999; and yet Serena (1 Slam, 4 other titles and 41-7 record) was NOT at her prime. That's some wicked logic, no?

And you're making a big deal about Serena's win over Graf (7-5 in the third) and TOTALLY ignoring Halard-Decuqis AWESOME win over Graf very same year. It's a good thing that Graf retired, otherwise JHD who was not a tiny bit indimidated by her, would have completely destroyed her in the future by attacking her weak backhand...

spartanfan, you are the embodiment of clueless...

Eat my ass. I'll conceded that in '99 Graf was past her peak, and Serena had not reached hers. I still say that if they had the opportunity to play more both Serena and Venus would have a winning head to head over Graf. There I said again.

spartanfan
Jul 14th, 2005, 06:25 PM
Serena at USO 1999:
128 W **Kimberly PO (USA) 6-1 6-0
64 W **Jelena KOSTANIC (CRO) 6-4 6-2
32 W **Kim CLIJSTERS (BEL) 4-6 6-2 7-5
16 W **Conchita MARTINEZ (ESP) 4-6 6-2 6-2
QF W **Monica SELES (USA) 4-6 6-3 6-2
SF W **Lindsay DAVENPORT (USA) 6-4 1-6 6-4
FR W **Martina HINGIS (SUI) 6-3 7-6


Graf had beaten Clijsters 6-2 6-2 in Wimbledon just 2 months earlier.
Graf is 13-1 H2H against Martinez.
Graf is 10-5 H2H against Seles, beat her at FO just 3 months earlier.
Graf is 8-6 H2H against Davenport, beat her at FO just 3 months earlier.
Graf is 7-2 h2H against Hingis, beat her at FO just 3 months earlier.


Which of Serena's USO 99 results Graf would not have been able to emulate?
And I'm not even speaking of peak Graf .....

And Serena still owns all of those mentioned in their head to head. But I'm sure once we started looking at who Graf had to beat on her way to GS titles, even YOU, as a crazed Graf fan wouldn't be that impressed.:o

abayen
Jul 14th, 2005, 06:28 PM
Steffi never quite figured out how to beat peak Seles though...
You are ridiculous.

You introduced the premise that Roger's game wasn't perfect because he had yet to win the French Open. But, now you pretend as if it was my original premise.

I could have challenged that premise, but since you made the mistake of associating perfection with the ability to win at the French I thought I'd bring it to your attention how you had just ended up making a case for why Steffi's game was perfect.

In reality, I think both their games are close to perfect as one can get. All the keys to domination are there: forehand from the backhand corner (inside-out and dtl), ability to hit an aggressive forehand from the midcourt, slice backhand, Twist serve to the AD Court, footwork, and speed. Roger has it, Sampras had it, Steffi had it. All dominated their eras like few else had.

To win the French, Roger has to learn to outlast Nadal. It is what Steffi had to do to win against ASV.

G-Ha
Jul 14th, 2005, 06:32 PM
Steffi never quite figured out how to beat peak Seles though...

Really? Why then was Steffi 3-1 against Monica during Monica's most dominant years on tour (1991-1992)?

G1Player2
Jul 14th, 2005, 06:44 PM
Serena at USO 1999:
128 W **Kimberly PO (USA) 6-1 6-0
64 W **Jelena KOSTANIC (CRO) 6-4 6-2
32 W **Kim CLIJSTERS (BEL) 4-6 6-2 7-5
16 W **Conchita MARTINEZ (ESP) 4-6 6-2 6-2
QF W **Monica SELES (USA) 4-6 6-3 6-2
SF W **Lindsay DAVENPORT (USA) 6-4 1-6 6-4
FR W **Martina HINGIS (SUI) 6-3 7-6


Graf had beaten Clijsters 6-2 6-2 in Wimbledon just 2 months earlier.
Graf is 13-1 H2H against Martinez.
Graf is 10-5 H2H against Seles, beat her at FO just 3 months earlier.
Graf is 8-6 H2H against Davenport, beat her at FO just 3 months earlier.
Graf is 7-2 h2H against Hingis, beat her at FO just 3 months earlier.

Which of Serena's USO 99 results Graf would not have been able to emulate?
And I'm not even speaking of peak Graf .....

Graf had just LOST to Lindsay Davenport 2 months before the US Open in straight sets...

Graf ALMOST lost to Hingis in straight sets at the FO until Hingis let the crowd affect her (Graf did play great, however) and steer her nerves...Hingis was ONLY 3 points away...

Conchita Martinez was a solid Top 10 played who made it to the Top 5 just months later and had beaten Graf before...Conchita has NEVER beaten Serena...

Clijsters is not that good on grass...

Serena leads all these players combined something like 28-12...

Timariot
Jul 14th, 2005, 06:46 PM
Eat my ass.

I believe I just did...

G1Player2
Jul 14th, 2005, 06:46 PM
Cali is just Cali...lol

But LDV's senseless rants and ragging on the W sisters is hilarious...

Just admit that you hate them and move on!

G1Player2
Jul 14th, 2005, 06:56 PM
LDV ALSO said that Graf was FASTER than Serena...:lol: :lol: :lol:

Calimero377
Jul 14th, 2005, 07:12 PM
And Serena still owns all of those mentioned in their head to head. But I'm sure once we started looking at who Graf had to beat on her way to GS titles, even YOU, as a crazed Graf fan wouldn't be that impressed.:o


That's not the point.

Some retardo suggested that Graf would have had no chance against Serena at USO 99 (Although Graf was #2 in the world and Serena only #10). I should ask her opponents Martinez, Seles, Davenport, Hingis.

So I thoroughly debunked his drivel by explaining how Graf owned those opponents EVEN in her twilight (1999). :worship:

Calimero377
Jul 14th, 2005, 07:14 PM
Really? Why then was Steffi 3-1 against Monica during Monica's most dominant years on tour (1991-1992)?



And 5-2 when Seles was #1?

G1Player2
Jul 14th, 2005, 07:17 PM
That's not the point.

Some retardo suggested that Graf would have had no chance against Serena at USO 99 (Although Graf was #2 in the world and Serena only #10). I should ask her opponents Martinez, Seles, Davenport, Hingis.

So I thoroughly debunked his drivel by explaining how Graf owned those opponents EVEN in her twilight (1999). :worship:

Graf did NOT have to face Clijsters, Martinez, Seles, or Davenport, Hingis(who just beat her faily comfortably) back-to-back...Remember, Davenport pushed Graf to the brink on CLAY and we know how Davenport HATES clay...

Remember she was just points away from losing to Hingis before Hingis let the crowd get her riled up...

Do you think Graf would have beaten ALL these players in a row INCLUDING Serena on a hardcourt...:lol: :lol: :lol:

Graf was not going to beat Serena at the USO 99'...Nobody was...

G1Player2
Jul 14th, 2005, 07:18 PM
Really? Why then was Steffi 3-1 against Monica during Monica's most dominant years on tour (1991-1992)?

Maybe because she led 2-1 in slams and wanted to give Graf some wins in the lesser events...

K-Dog
Jul 14th, 2005, 07:19 PM
That's not the point.

Some retardo suggested that Graf would have had no chance against Serena at USO 99 (Although Graf was #2 in the world and Serena only #10). I should ask her opponents Martinez, Seles, Davenport, Hingis.

So I thoroughly debunked his drivel by explaining how Graf owned those opponents EVEN in her twilight (1999). :worship:

Steffi would defiantly have a chance. Again another uneducated, non-tennis playing person would thinks that Serena and Venus are unbeatable at all times. I'm a Williams fan, but I understand the technical side better than some and Steffi had a chance to win everytime she stepped on the court healthy. Her game was very potent as we saw from 1987-1999. Some people don't really understand how good Steffi was!! It could've been a good match as their other two went to three.

G1Player2
Jul 14th, 2005, 07:22 PM
Steffi would defiantly have a chance. Again another uneducated, non-tennis playing person would thinks that Serena and Venus are unbeatable at all times. I'm a Williams fan, but I understand the technical side better than some and Steffi had a chance to win everytime she stepped on the court healthy. Her game was very potent as we saw from 1987-1999. Some people don't really understand how good Steffi was!! It could've been a good match as their other two went to three.

Didn't say Steffi had NO chance, but would she have been able to beat Seles, Davenport, Hingis and finally an inspired Serena back-2-back who was playing GREAT and serving BETTER than anyone I've ever seen...Don't think so...:wavey:

Calimero377
Jul 14th, 2005, 07:24 PM
Graf had just LOST to Lindsay Davenport 2 months before the US Open in straight sets...

Graf ALMOST lost to Hingis in straight sets at the FO until Hingis let the crowd affect her (Graf did play great, however) and steer her nerves...Hingis was ONLY 3 points away...

Conchita Martinez was a solid Top 10 played who made it to the Top 5 just months later and had beaten Graf before...Conchita has NEVER beaten Serena...

Clijsters is not that good on grass...

Serena leads all these players combined something like 28-12...



1) Graf lost to Davenport with 67-70 on points-played. Both players had two break points, Davenport converted them, Graf not. Graf on the other hand beat Davenport thoroughly at FO 4 weeks earlier (107-86 on points-played).Both matches combined Graf won 174-156. Graf was the better player, even as a grandma ...

2) What did the crowd do at 6-4, 5-4 15-0 in Hingis favour? Tell us ....

3) Martinez was washed-up in 99. That she made the top5 in 2000 is only sign how bad the competition was when
- Graf was retired
- Hingis became head-case
- Davenport started her injury streak
- Venus started winning slams.

G1Player2
Jul 14th, 2005, 07:24 PM
That's not the point.

Some retardo suggested that Graf would have had no chance against Serena at USO 99 (Although Graf was #2 in the world and Serena only #10). I should ask her opponents Martinez, Seles, Davenport, Hingis.

So I thoroughly debunked his drivel by explaining how Graf owned those opponents EVEN in her twilight (1999). :worship:

BTW, Serena was NOT WTA #10...

K-Dog
Jul 14th, 2005, 07:27 PM
Didn't say Steffi had NO chance, but would she have been able to beat Seles, Davenport, Hingis and finally an inspired Serena back-2-back who was playing GREAT and serving BETTER than anyone I've ever seen...Don't think so...:wavey:

Yes she could've. She owned Seles, Davenport, and Hingis!! Plus I don't think that Serena really frightened Steffi all that much. I don't know how Serena would've come out mentally against Steffi, and if Steffi is playing well enough to beat Seles, Davenport, and Hingis, she could beat Serena. Serena's forehand was AWFUL in that match. I think that Serena would've given a hell of a fight and perphaps still won, but I'm sure Steffi could do it and beat her. I would still be rooting for Serena though!!!

G1Player2
Jul 14th, 2005, 07:31 PM
1) Graf lost to Davenport with 67-70 on points-played. Both players had two break points, Davenport converted them, Graf not. Graf on the other hand beat Davenport thoroughly at FO 4 weeks earlier (107-86 on points-played).Both matches combined Graf won 174-156. Graf was the better player, even as a grandma ...

2) What did the crowd do at 6-4, 5-4 15-0 in Hingis favour? Tell us ....

3) Martinez was washed-up in 99. That she made the top5 in 2000 is only sign how bad the competition was when
- Graf was retired
- Hingis became head-case
- Davenport started her injury streak
- Venus started winning slams.

Hingis has went on record that 2000 was one of her best years...Don't use that excuse...Hingis won 9 tournaments, GS final, 2 semis, etc. multiple wins over Davenport, Seles, Serena, etc.

2000 was Davenport's best season...What are you talking about...3 Grand slam finals, dominating Serena at the USO, beating Hingis multiple times, Venus, Seles, etc.

Also, if Martinez being in the Top 5 says alot about the competition in 2000, then I don't want to hear what you have to say about 1994 then, right? Didn't Conchita Martinez WIN WImbledon in 1994, on her weakest surface, when we KNOW her best and favorite surface is clay (tons of claycourt titles and decent record at the French). And don't even get me started who were Top 5 THEN...:lol: :lol: :lol:



2.) BTW, about Hingis...She had already let the crows SEVERELY get into her head even before 5-4 15-0, but the crowd clearly rattled her and her level dropped considerably...(check the stats.) If she had continued to play her game the match would have been over before 5-4 15-0, or otherwise, she would have closed it out then, instead of crying, complaining about line calls, letting the crowd effect her, etc...

G1Player2
Jul 14th, 2005, 07:32 PM
Yes she could've. She owned Seles, Davenport, and Hingis!! Plus I don't think that Serena really frightened Steffi all that much. I don't know how Serena would've come out mentally against Steffi, and if Steffi is playing well enough to beat Seles, Davenport, and Hingis, she could beat Serena. Serena's forehand was AWFUL in that match. I think that Serena would've given a hell of a fight and perphaps still won, but I'm sure Steffi could do it and beat her. I would still be rooting for Serena though!!!

What match was Serena's forehand awful?

K-Dog
Jul 14th, 2005, 07:37 PM
What match was Serena's forehand awful?

The finals. Yes she hit some winners and one at a big time in the tiebreak I believe, but if I was playing Serena that day, her forehand looked ripe for the picking!! Her serve and backhand got her out of trouble a lot. You could see that she didn't want to hit a forehand on match point!!

SVSK, please stop fighting with a fellow Williams fan. I'm just being honest, and I have nothing against you. Hell I didn't know it was you who said that about Steffi and Serena, I just read Calimero's post and thought it was an ignorant person, as I can clearly see it's not. Sorry, I made a bad assumption!!

G1Player2
Jul 14th, 2005, 07:41 PM
Umm, yeah...ok...Monica was trying to be nice. And during what period did Monica lead 2-1 in slams? Obivously not during 91-92, which is the period clearly defined in my post. Up through 1992, Steffi led 3-2 in their slam encounters.

Are you even thinking before you post or are just randomly throwing out weak arguments in an attempt to counter any positive post about Steffi?

Oh please...Don't EVER try to manipulate stats and creat differnt time frames to get your point across...

How about this, at the 1992 French Open, also the year Seles played some of her best tennis, up until 1993 Austrailian open, Seles beat Graf in 2 out of 3 matches and led 2-0 in slams...