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View Full Version : Saddest story in tennis at the moment....


V-MAC
Jul 11th, 2005, 06:07 PM
...with not counting players with personal problems, I mean just on terms of major form loss or undeveloped talent etc... Well for me, I would have to say Jelena Dokic and I'm sure many others here will agree. I just miss watching her play her matches on tv so much :sad: Her "sneeze" grunt thing was so unique and brilliant :D Anyway, more seriously, it is just tragic to see a player of her "top 10" calibre struggling to win matches now at Challenger level :( Jelena was such a breath of fresh air to womens' tennis - she brought the sex appeal when Anna K started to go off the radar, she brought a fiesty attitude to the court and most important of all, she was majorly talented. Anyway, at least she is still playing tennis so there is always a small bit of hope that she might regain her top level form again. Now that would make some fairytale story :) ......

aheee!!
Jul 11th, 2005, 06:23 PM
Yeah, well she just lost to Conchita MARTINEZ-GRANADOS 64 57 60 in the first round of a $50,000 challenger event in Italy. She's ranked #377. Things are not looking good. It's not her ability obviously--she's a top 15 player based on that. Her personal problems are the big issue and it seems her dad is wrecking her career. Although she never got the desperate point that it has gotten to with Jelena, the situation sort of reminds me of Schnyder and that psycho who mad her drink only orange juice. She kind of disappeared for a long time when she was with him and it took her a long time to get back to where she is.

V-MAC
Jul 11th, 2005, 06:38 PM
Yeah, well she just lost to Conchita MARTINEZ-GRANADOS 64 57 60 in the first round of a $50,000 challenger event in Italy. She's ranked #377. Things are not looking good. It's not her ability obviously--she's a top 15 player based on that. Her personal problems are the big issue and it seems her dad is wrecking her career. Although she never got the desperate point that it has gotten to with Jelena, the situation sort of reminds me of Schnyder and that psycho who mad her drink only orange juice. She kind of disappeared for a long time when she was with him and it took her a long time to get back to where she is.

I thought Damir didn't travel with her anymore though or anything and doesn't have an input in her career :confused:

Libertango
Jul 11th, 2005, 07:34 PM
I love your avatar VMAC!!! Is it Makosi? :hearts:

miranda_lou
Jul 11th, 2005, 07:34 PM
it is just tragic to see a player of her "top 10" calibre struggling to win matches now at Challenger level

In my opinion, Jelena was NEVER a top ten player.:rolleyes: Sure, she has a little talent and she's certainly better than the 300s, but I always felt she got lucky to make the top 10 and should really only have made it into the top 50. She's just not that good.

I think she will never make it on the WTA tour again and will disappear completely by next year. Sorry, but it's the truth.

V-MAC
Jul 11th, 2005, 07:36 PM
I love your avatar VMAC!!! Is it Makosi? :hearts:

:lol: yep sure is the queen herself ;) :hearts: :worship:

V-MAC
Jul 11th, 2005, 07:39 PM
In my opinion, Jelena was NEVER a top ten player.:rolleyes: Sure, she has a little talent and she's certainly better than the 300s, but I always felt she got lucky to make the top 10 and should really only have made it into the top 50. She's just not that good.

I think she will never make it on the WTA tour again and will disappear completely by next year. Sorry, but it's the truth.

Didn't Jelena reach #5 in the world at her peak? :confused: not too sure but I think she did and while I agree, ok maybe Jelena wasn't good enough to be ranked in the top 5, she DEFINITELY belonged in the top 10 when she was playing her best tennis. In fact, Jelena at her best beats many of the current top 10 for me, including Elena D, Myskina:o and most of the Russians in fact ( except for Maria of course)

Knizzle
Jul 11th, 2005, 07:40 PM
Dokic was #4 in the summer of '02.

*roddicksinme*
Jul 11th, 2005, 07:41 PM
Sprem and Dokic
and Jen out all year :sad:

Wolfram Hart
Jul 11th, 2005, 07:41 PM
The saddest story in tennis at the moment has to be when the two players were playing a doubles match on the outside court at Wimbledon. When suddenly the two of them see a funeral procession go by the outer perimeter of the court. The player takes her baseball cap off and waits for the procession to pass by before playing again. Her doubles partner noticed the gesture and responds favourably and then asks her at the changeover why she did it. "It was the least I could do after we'd been married 4 years," she replied.

Sam's Slave
Jul 11th, 2005, 07:43 PM
The saddest story in tennis at the moment has to be when the two players were playing a doubles match on the outside court at Wimbledon. When suddenly the two of them see a funeral procession go by the outer perimeter of the court. The player takes her baseball cap off and waits for the procession to pass by before playing again. Her doubles partner noticed the gesture and responds favourably and then asks her at the changeover why she did it. "It was the least I could do after we'd been married 4 years," she replied.

???

V-MAC
Jul 11th, 2005, 07:46 PM
Dokic was #4 in the summer of '02.

Wow, 4 even, well I agree that was a bit too high for her without even a slam final. She also got her butt whipped by Chanda that summer in the L.A Open. I think that was the begining of the fall of her career, with all credit to Chanda for playing well, Jelena just made some of the most obscene errors in that match, especially in the first set :tape:

Wolfram Hart
Jul 11th, 2005, 07:46 PM
???

It happened a few years ago before they changed the courts to grass.

Sam's Slave
Jul 11th, 2005, 07:49 PM
It happened a few years ago before they changed the courts to grass.

yeah whatever :rolleyes:

miranda_lou
Jul 11th, 2005, 08:03 PM
Dokic was #4 in the summer of '02.

True, but she really didn't belong at #4. Look how quickly she fell apart. That's because other players learned to play to her [many] weaknesses and she couldn't raise her game to a higher level. It's too one-dimentional. The proof is that the girl can't even win a match in a Challenger-level tournament (0-6 in the 3rd set??? That's pretty bad for a former #4 player.)

Anyway, I'm not trying to put Jelena down and I know she's had tons of personal problems with her Daddy, but, I just think she was more lucky than good. Alex Stevenson and Mirjana Lucic are the same, they just fell faster than Jelena.

TF Chipmunk
Jul 11th, 2005, 08:05 PM
...with not counting players with personal problems, I mean just on terms of major form loss or undeveloped talent etc... Well for me, I would have to say Jelena Dokic and I'm sure many others here will agree. I just miss watching her play her matches on tv so much :sad: Her "sneeze" grunt thing was so unique and brilliant :D Anyway, more seriously, it is just tragic to see a player of her "top 10" calibre struggling to win matches now at Challenger level :( Jelena was such a breath of fresh air to womens' tennis - she brought the sex appeal when Anna K started to go off the radar, she brought a fiesty attitude to the court and most important of all, she was majorly talented. Anyway, at least she is still playing tennis so there is always a small bit of hope that she might regain her top level form again. Now that would make some fairytale story :) ......
:sad:

vutt
Jul 11th, 2005, 08:26 PM
Good thing about Dokic right now is she's healthy and willing to comeback. So let's just wait and see how things will turn out.

auntie janie
Jul 11th, 2005, 08:28 PM
Well don't plan Jelena's funeral just yet! She just turned 22 this spring; she's not exactly over the hill. She doesn't have a major injury to deal with; she looks fit and trim again; and she is doing the right thing by trying to work her way back into form by entering these Challengers. Conchita MG was a tough first round draw for her in Cuneo -- Conchi reached the final -- yet Jelena did get a set off her. The 0-6 final set may mean that she is not fit enough to go 3 tough sets right now, or maybe that she experienced some minor injury during the match, but is not a reason to dismiss her whole future.

In any case, I respect that she's out there in the trenches really trying to rebuild her game and her confidence, rather than taking the far easier, and far less humiliating, exhibition & WTT route taken by some other fallen stars. I wish the best of luck to Jelena. She provided some of the amazing moments of tennis in her earlier career -- who can forget her upset of top-seeded Hingis at Wimbledon? -- and I hope she will give us some other great moments in the future.

jd4eva
Jul 11th, 2005, 10:11 PM
True, but she really didn't belong at #4. Look how quickly she fell apart. That's because other players learned to play to her [many] weaknesses and she couldn't raise her game to a higher level. It's too one-dimentional. The proof is that the girl can't even win a match in a Challenger-level tournament (0-6 in the 3rd set??? That's pretty bad for a former #4 player.)

Anyway, I'm not trying to put Jelena down and I know she's had tons of personal problems with her Daddy, but, I just think she was more lucky than good. Alex Stevenson and Mirjana Lucic are the same, they just fell faster than Jelena.

Jelena reached #4 by luck? That is the most ridiculous statement I have ever read.

She has 5 Tour Titles. Two of which were Tier I's in Rome and Moscow. She's also won the Tier II Princess Cup which is now defunct. She's beaten Hingis, Venus, Monica, Jennifer, Kim, Justine, Amelie, Dementieva, Myskina, Petrova, Rubin and many other top players.

She was a solid top 10 player for almost 2 years and even in her slump she has been able to beat Molik, Dechy, Dementieva, Clijsters, Myskina and Rubin while playing awfully. I'm sorry but it is ridiculous and grossly inaccurate to rationalise those results and career victories to luck.

moon
Jul 11th, 2005, 10:21 PM
Jelena reached #4 by luck? That is the most ridiculous statement I have ever read.

She has 5 Tour Titles. Two of which were Tier I's in Rome and Moscow. She's also won the Tier II Princess Cup which is now defunct. She's beaten Hingis, Venus, Monica, Jennifer, Kim, Justine, Amelie, Dementieva, Myskina, Petrova, Rubin and many other top players.

She was a solid top 10 player for almost 2 years and even in her slump she has been able to beat Molik, Dechy, Dementieva, Clijsters, Myskina and Rubin while playing awfully. I'm sorry but it is ridiculous and grossly inaccurate to rationalise those results and career victories to luck.

The reason Jelena was ranked that high, was she played about 30 tourneys a year. There never has been and probably never will be anything exceptional about her game. She's top 20 at best.

btw--the only time she beat Venus was when she was just in from her 6 month layoff in 2000. :p

matthieu_tennis
Jul 11th, 2005, 10:29 PM
OMG how can you say she is lucky, do you see the 2 match she beat capriati she just overpowered capriati. she has a lot of talent

matthieu_tennis
Jul 11th, 2005, 10:30 PM
she beat mauresmo henin four time hantuchova venus hingis dementieva clijters

Albireo
Jul 12th, 2005, 12:16 AM
The saddest story in tennis at the moment has to be when the two players were playing a doubles match on the outside court at Wimbledon. When suddenly the two of them see a funeral procession go by the outer perimeter of the court. The player takes her baseball cap off and waits for the procession to pass by before playing again. Her doubles partner noticed the gesture and responds favourably and then asks her at the changeover why she did it. "It was the least I could do after we'd been married 4 years," she replied.

Or the linesman who was killed by Stefan Edberg.

Threadjack: miranda_lou, if you'd like to meet up at the Cinci tourney, PM me or come over to the tournament forum so we can arrange somewhere/when to meet!

WorldWar24
Jul 12th, 2005, 12:22 AM
The reason Jelena was ranked that high, was she played about 30 tourneys a year. There never has been and probably never will be anything exceptional about her game. She's top 20 at best.

btw--the only time she beat Venus was when she was just in from her 6 month layoff in 2000. :p

She didn't beat Venus. She DEMOLISHED Venus 6-1 6-2. You should thank Jelena Dokic that Venus went on to become the champion that she is, coz Jelena sent her crying and packing to the USA to work on her game, and 1-2 months later she became a grand slam champion for the first time. Whoever saw that match can tell you Jelena gave Venus a lesson about playing the power game on a clay court. They have nothing but praise for each other and Venus said she admired Dokic more than anyone else

I'm yet to see another player play as much as Dokic did in 2001-02 and be ranked that high, coz if you think playing 28 or more tournies is easy, you should check out the rankings list. The tournaments enter the 17 best total, so Dokic had a lot of similar results that got thrown away, and I for one, have no doubt she would be ranked even higher had she played a normal schedule and focused on the big ones. Instead she got burnt out., not to mention her troubled personal life. Still, she got to 13 semis in 2002, was injured half the time, didn't play until february, and barely had the energy to play after september that year. During that time, she had 5 titles, 1 on grass, 1 on green clay, 1 on red clay, 1 on hard and 1 on carpet, including 2 tier Is, so that pretty much tells it all about her ability to play on any surface. By the time she was no4, she had 13 semis on her points bank, 9 finals and 4 titles, including 5 finals out of 6 tournaments in a row.

Jelena gave it her all and deserves a little respect from the tennis world. Look at her now. It's easy to look back and say she was nothing special coz you don't remember how good she was

And about that Rubin match, Jelena was seen crying on the phone before the match. It was the beginning of the end right there. Most people have no idea what she went through

Albireo
Jul 12th, 2005, 12:32 AM
The biggest tragedy of Dokic isn't the career gone awry, but the devastation of her personal life and the very public adolescence she suffered through at the whims of her bastard father. It's a wonder to me that she's still alive.

If there's a Hell, Damir deserves his own sulfurous room in it.

faboozadoo15
Jul 12th, 2005, 12:41 AM
to say jelena only had luck is just bs. you don't get to #4 and win tier 1 titles with luck.

to say she was overranked because she played 30 tournaments is also stupid. only 17 count for everyone. sure, she gets to drop 13 tournaments, but she also had to play a lot of matches that didn't end up counting toward anything, and her body was strong enough to handle it. it's quite amazing if you think about it.

TF Chipmunk
Jul 12th, 2005, 12:43 AM
to say jelena only had luck is just bs. you don't get to #4 and win tier 1 titles with luck.

to say she was overranked because she played 30 tournaments is also stupid. only 17 count for everyone. sure, she gets to drop 13 tournaments, but she also had to play a lot of matches that didn't end up counting toward anything, and her body was strong enough to handle it. it's quite amazing if you think about it.
:yeah:

moon
Jul 12th, 2005, 01:05 AM
to say jelena only had luck is just bs. you don't get to #4 and win tier 1 titles with luck.

to say she was overranked because she played 30 tournaments is also stupid. only 17 count for everyone. sure, she gets to drop 13 tournaments, but she also had to play a lot of matches that didn't end up counting toward anything, and her body was strong enough to handle it. it's quite amazing if you think about it.

oh really?
if it's so amazing why is she ranked so low now? She overplayed during that time, and she is surely paying for it now. That's in addition to her problems with dad. I think Justine learned a similar lesson (although she didn't play as much as Jelena), and she is cutting back. Her body could handle playing that much for a certain amount of time, but she is suffering the reprecussions of it now.
btw--I know that only the top 17 results count. so she gets to drop the crappy results, and keep the good ones (which means they do count for something, if only to pad her points total). If she had played only 17 or even 20 tourneys, she wouldn't have made it anywhere near 4.

SM
Jul 12th, 2005, 01:14 AM
jd4eva sums it up

Knizzle
Jul 12th, 2005, 01:20 AM
She didn't beat Venus. She DEMOLISHED Venus 6-1 6-2. You should thank Jelena Dokic that Venus went on to become the champion that she is, coz Jelena sent her crying and packing to the USA to work on her game, and 1-2 months later she became a grand slam champion for the first time. Whoever saw that match can tell you Jelena gave Venus a lesson about playing the power game on a clay court. They have nothing but praise for each other and Venus said she admired Dokic more than anyone else


Dumbest thing I've ever heard, sure Dokic whooped Venus in that match, but she definitely didn't send Venus home to the USA to practice, Venus went to the French Open where she advanced to the QF losing to ASV while Dokic lost 6-3, 6-1 in the R of 64 to Kveta Hrdlickova/Peschke. If Dokic knew how to play the power game better than Venus enough to give Venus a lesson I guess Dokic would have also gone on to win slams like Venus did. The nerve of you to say Venus should thank her. How stupid do you sound??

Knizzle
Jul 12th, 2005, 01:23 AM
Dokic didn't get to #4 by luck, she maybe was a little overranked because she played alot, but she was good enough to contend for Tier 1's.

WhatTheDeuce
Jul 12th, 2005, 01:40 AM
Jelena ruled. She could hit so clean off the ground and when she was playing well her accuracy was really impeccable. SHOO!!!!

I miss her. :sad:

Cris Senior
Jul 12th, 2005, 01:49 AM
I've noticed that while most posters trace back Jelena's present court troubles to the psychological head problems with her father, no one seems to be aware that her major problem in this area has been most recently the turbulent relationship with her last boyfriend, Brazilian formula 1 race driver Enrique Bernoldi.(What is it with these Enrique's and tennis players ?). After many passionate break ups and reconciliations, Enrique finally dumped Jelena last year, with devastating emotional consequences for her, very well informed sources tell me.
Now for a game very demanding on focus and attention for both play and practice, this kind of situation can easily derail a player. I understand this was Jelena's very first serious involvement in her life, so you can imagine what she hgas had to deal with.

jd4eva
Jul 12th, 2005, 01:55 AM
oh really?
if it's so amazing why is she ranked so low now? She overplayed during that time, and she is surely paying for it now. That's in addition to her problems with dad. I think Justine learned a similar lesson (although she didn't play as much as Jelena), and she is cutting back. Her body could handle playing that much for a certain amount of time, but she is suffering the reprecussions of it now.
btw--I know that only the top 17 results count. so she gets to drop the crappy results, and keep the good ones (which means they do count for something, if only to pad her points total). If she had played only 17 or even 20 tourneys, she wouldn't have made it anywhere near 4.

She isn't at the same level now because she has been destroyed mentally. A large part of tennis is mental and when Jelena was in the top 10 she was one of the toughest players mentally. She was focussed and never gave up on matches. She is at her state now because she has had to go through the most painful thing an individual has to go through - estrangement from your family. Given the fact that she is so young and her previoiusly iron-clad relationship to her family it would be even more difficult for Jelena to play given the fact that she is alone.

She doesn't have a coach and travels by herself. The world can be lonely for a girl of 22. Jelena has admitted that when her father caused controversy in the past she would cry at night but she could still focus on her tennis because she had the support of her family. Now her father continues to torment her through the media - labeling her a whore, traitor and a drug cheat are just a few of the comments he has made. He has also claimed to have disowned Jelena and told her that she was dead to him. It's hard enough to compete at the highest level of the game when you have a stable home life, the thought of competing when your entire life is in a disarray and you're depressed is a difficult one to fathom. Jelena admitted she was in deep depression at last year's Wimbledon and the mere fact that she is still trying to regain some of the form that she once held is an indication of the determination she has.

Yes she played a lot of events...but so did the players around her. The only players to play a truly limited schedule were the Williams sisters. The players ranked around Jelena (apart from Jennifer, Lindsay and perhaps Monica) such as Myskina, Dementieva etc all played full schedules like Jelena. Yes she did give herself more room to have bad weeks but that doesn't detract from her big wins. The notion that one can get a high ranking by playing a lot of tournaments is a fallacy of the highest order. In fact, Dokic was the only player ranked in the top 20 that played as many events as she did (although as stated earlier the Russians and players around Jelena played a similar number) and this indicates that there's no correlation between the amount of tennis played and rank. Not to mention the wear and tear on the body and mind when playing a large amount of events would have certainly made it more difficult for Jelena to have the results that she did.

If it was so easy to get to no 4 then why haven't more players done it? You're contending that Jelena's climb can mostly be attributed to the amount of tournaments she played but that is a gorss misstatement and devoid of any accuracy or factual basis. She played well, won big matches and won tournaments. That's how she earned the ranking she did. Any statement to the contrary cannot be supported by anything more than pure dislike or bias against Jelena. Given the fact that many Williams fans rationalised the initial poor form of Venus and Serena as being attributed to the tragic death of her sister, it would seem that it wouldn't be all that difficult for them to comprehend how devastating it would be for a 22 year old girl to have lost her entire family.

jd4eva
Jul 12th, 2005, 01:59 AM
I've noticed that while most posters trace back Jelena's present court troubles to the psychological head problems with her father, no one seems to be aware that her major problem in this area has been most recently the turbulent relationship with her last boyfriend, Brazilian formula 1 race driver Enrique Bernoldi.(What is it with these Enrique's and tennis players ?). After many passionate break ups and reconciliations, Enrique finally dumped Jelena last year, with devastating emotional consequences for her, very well informed sources tell me.
Now for a game very demanding on focus and attention for both play and practice, this kind of situation can easily derail a player. I understand this was Jelena's very first serious involvement in her life, so you can imagine what she hgas had to deal with.

That entire post is totally incorrect. Jelena broke up with Enrique just after Wimbledon 2003. She was dating Tino Bikic just after the US Open in the very same year so any notion that they had a turbulent relation filled with break-ups and reconciliation is false.

WhatTheDeuce
Jul 12th, 2005, 02:00 AM
She isn't at the same level now because she has been destroyed mentally. A large part of tennis is mental and when Jelena was in the top 10 she was one of the toughest players mentally. She was focussed and never gave up on matches. She is at her state now because she has had to go through the most painful thing an individual has to go through - estrangement from your family. Given the fact that she is so young and her previoiusly iron-clad relationship to her family it would be even more difficult for Jelena to play given the fact that she is alone.

She doesn't have a coach and travels by herself. The world can be lonely for a girl of 22. Jelena has admitted that when her father caused controversy in the past she would cry at night but she could still focus on her tennis because she had the support of her family. Now her father continues to torment her through the media - labeling her a whore, traitor and a drug cheat are just a few of the comments he has made. He has also claimed to have disowned Jelena and told her that she was dead to him. It's hard enough to compete at the highest level of the game when you have a stable home life, the thought of competing when your entire life is in a disarray and you're depressed is a difficult one to fathom. Jelena admitted she was in deep depression at last year's Wimbledon and the mere fact that she is still trying to regain some of the form that she once held is an indication of the determination she has.

Yes she played a lot of events...but so did the players around her. The only players to play a truly limited schedule were the Williams sisters. The players ranked around Jelena (apart from Jennifer, Lindsay and perhaps Monica) such as Myskina, Dementieva etc all played full schedules like Jelena. Yes she did give herself more room to have bad weeks but that doesn't detract from her big wins. The notion that one can get a high ranking by playing a lot of tournaments is a fallacy of the highest order. In fact, Dokic was the only player ranked in the top 20 that played as many events as she did (although as stated earlier the Russians and players around Jelena played a similar number) and this indicates that there's no correlation between the amount of tennis played and rank. Not to mention the wear and tear on the body and mind when playing a large amount of events would have certainly made it more difficult for Jelena to have the results that she did.

If it was so easy to get to no 4 then why haven't more players done it? You're contending that Jelena's climb can mostly be attributed to the amount of tournaments she played but that is a gorss misstatement and devoid of any accuracy or factual basis. She played well, won big matches and won tournaments. That's how she earned the ranking she did. Any statement to the contrary cannot be supported by anything more than pure dislike or bias against Jelena. Given the fact that many Williams fans rationalised the initial poor form of Venus and Serena as being attributed to the tragic death of her sister, it would seem that it wouldn't be all that difficult for them to comprehend how devastating it would be for a 22 year old girl to have lost her entire family.
:worship:

faboozadoo15
Jul 12th, 2005, 02:24 AM
oh really?
if it's so amazing why is she ranked so low now? She overplayed during that time, and she is surely paying for it now. That's in addition to her problems with dad. I think Justine learned a similar lesson (although she didn't play as much as Jelena), and she is cutting back. Her body could handle playing that much for a certain amount of time, but she is suffering the reprecussions of it now.
btw--I know that only the top 17 results count. so she gets to drop the crappy results, and keep the good ones (which means they do count for something, if only to pad her points total). If she had played only 17 or even 20 tourneys, she wouldn't have made it anywhere near 4.

jelena may have overplayed while she was at the top (which arguably made her results suffer), and she may have gotten a little fatigued while she was still a great player, but it's NOT the reason for her fall in the rankings and long period of inactivity. it's not a physical thing with her.

justine also is cutting back NOW that she has had a debilitating virus. the virus had nothing to do with her playing too much tennis, but for her future, now she has to play less because she has less energy BECAUSE OF THE VIRUS.

are you really going to be this stupid? there is NO WAY you can prove that if she played just 20 tournaments that her results would not be good enough for top 4. what we know is that her best 17 put her in the top 4 and that she didn't count 13 of her tournaments, which means a whole lot of MATCHES WON didn't go toward her ranking AT ALL. for all we know if she had played just 20 events, her results could have been better. there's no evidence to the contrary.

if jelena put in the time, travel, effort, and energy to play way more than all the other girls whose bodies can't take it, then she fucking deserved to have her point total padded.

ys
Jul 12th, 2005, 02:30 AM
Dokic was #4 in the summer of '02.

If anything, it shows the laughable depth of the tour of Serena Slam times. Oh yeah, Hantuchova was Top 5 too.. :lol:

But, seriously, what is happening to Dokic is a bit of a mystery. She seems to be healthy. How come Alina Jidkova can be a Top 100 resident and Jelena Dokic can't? Either she is total idiot, not capable of doing anything on her own, or she has some issues that we are not aware of.

Knizzle
Jul 12th, 2005, 02:32 AM
If anything, it shows the laughable depth of the tour of Serena Slam times. Oh yeah, Hantuchova was Top 5 too.. :lol:

But, seriously, what is happening to Dokic is a bit of a mystery. She seems to be healthy. How come Alina Jidkova can be a Top 100 resident and Jelena Dokic. Either she is total idiot, not capable of doing anything on her own, or she has some issues that we are not aware of.

There might be more depth now, but the top players back then namely Serena and Venus were at a higher level than anyone now.

azza
Jul 12th, 2005, 02:32 AM
Yeah, well she just lost to Conchita MARTINEZ-GRANADOS 64 57 60 in the first round of a $50,000 challenger event in Italy. She's ranked #377. Things are not looking good. It's not her ability obviously--she's a top 15 player based on that. Her personal problems are the big issue and it seems her dad is wrecking her career. Although she never got the desperate point that it has gotten to with Jelena, the situation sort of reminds me of Schnyder and that psycho who mad her drink only orange juice. She kind of disappeared for a long time when she was with him and it took her a long time to get back to where she is.

Based on what? :confused:

ys
Jul 12th, 2005, 02:33 AM
There might be more depth now, but the top players back then namely Serena and Venus were at a higher level than anyone now.

How do you know? How do you compare?

Robbie.
Jul 12th, 2005, 02:41 AM
Dokic at her best was every bit up to the class of a player like Elena Dementieva. In fact she has dominated Elena head to head. Elena is number 5 in the world now. Her record against Myskina is also positive. Jelena had the misfortune of peaking at a time when the Williamses were dominating. If she'd peaked in 2004, she'd probably have a slam or atleast a slam final.

Knizzle
Jul 12th, 2005, 02:43 AM
How do you know? How do you compare?

I saw Serena win the Aussie Open on guts alone. Serena of 2003 would have dragged AO 05 champ Serena through the mud.

ys
Jul 12th, 2005, 02:49 AM
Dokic at her best was every bit up to the class of a player like Elena Dementieva. In fact she has dominated Elena head to head. Elena is number 5 in the world now.

Seriously untrue. Dokic dominated Dementieva during Dementieva's sophomore slump period of 2001-early 2003. It was Dokic's best time, Dementieva's worst. During Dementieva's early peak Dementieva was beating Dokic.

Comparing Dementieva and Dokic is simply laughable. Dokic has hardly ever beaten a good player when it mattered. Williamses, Davenport, Henin, Clijsters, Seles, Capriati have always beaten her like a drum, never been challenged. Dementieva even at her worst times managed to challenge every player.

ys
Jul 12th, 2005, 02:53 AM
I saw Serena win the Aussie Open on guts alone. Serena of 2003 would have dragged AO 05 champ Serena through the mud.

Impossible to say. Serena-2003 could not even handle Paris crowd and choked away a big lead against Henin. Serena-2003 has been dragged through the mud by Clijsters at AO-2003, before Clijsters choked all she could. And Clijsters is a better player now.

Knizzle
Jul 12th, 2005, 02:55 AM
Impossible to say. Serena-2003 could not even handle Paris crowd and choked away a big lead against Henin. Serena-2003 has been dragged through the mud by Clijsters at AO-2003, before Clijsters choked all she could. And Clijsters is a better player now.

Even if Kim would have won it was 3 sets. Is that all you could come up with?? That's pretty lame even for you ys.

Robbie.
Jul 12th, 2005, 03:11 AM
Seriously untrue. Dokic dominated Dementieva during Dementieva's sophomore slump period of 2001-early 2003. It was Dokic's best time, Dementieva's worst. During Dementieva's early peak Dementieva was beating Dokic.

Comparing Dementieva and Dokic is simply laughable. Dokic has hardly ever beaten a good player when it mattered. Williamses, Davenport, Henin, Clijsters, Seles, Capriati have always beaten her like a drum, never been challenged. Dementieva even at her worst times managed to challenge every player.

What are you talking about?

Dokic v S. Williams 0-4
Dokic v V. Williams 1-3
Dokic v Davenport 0-9
Dokic v Henin 1-2
Dokic v Capriati 1-5
Dokic v Seles 1-4
Dokic v Clijsters 3-6

Total: 6-33

Dementieva v S. Williams 0-4
Dementieva v V. Williams 2-4
Dementieva v Davenport 4-10
Dementieva v Henin 1-7
Dementieva v Capriati 1-3
Dementieva v Seles 0-1
Dementieva v Clijsters 1-7

Total: 9-36

An unbiased person would say these records were similar. The fact is that these players are both below the top echelon. They are top 6-10 players. The thing is Dokic was playing at a time when there were real top 1-4 players so she didn't get the opportunity to make slam finals. Dementieva last year had the benefit of a field where the top 4 players were incapacitated. This year she is being put back in her place behind the Williamses, Belgians, Sharapova and Davenport.

jack daniels
Jul 12th, 2005, 03:13 AM
sharapova not winning wimbledon :hearts:

ys
Jul 12th, 2005, 03:16 AM
Dementieva last year had the benefit of a field where the top 4 players were incapacitated. This year she is being put back in her place behind the Williamses, Belgians, Sharapova and Davenport.

Nothing of the kind. She is fighting her own demons this year, not top players. Choked in every single R16 match of Grand Slams. Had them all there for taking.

faboozadoo15
Jul 12th, 2005, 03:18 AM
Nothing of the kind. She is fighting her own demons this year, not top players. Choked in every single R16 match of Grand Slams. Had them all there for taking.
that actually is true...
her ranking/points would be sitting beautifully had she won these 3 very winnable matches.

the rg debacle was just pathetic... just pathetic.

Robbie.
Jul 12th, 2005, 03:22 AM
Nothing of the kind. She is fighting her own demons this year, not top players. Choked in every single R16 match of Grand Slams. Had them all there for taking.

So you are saying she is as good as these players? So far she is 0-4 against them this year. Let's face it, Elena has never showed a consistent ability to beat Venus, Serena, Kim, Justine or Lindsay (except on clay). Her record against Sharapova so far is not good either at 1-3.

Knizzle
Jul 12th, 2005, 03:23 AM
What are you talking about?

Dokic v S. Williams 0-4
Dokic v V. Williams 1-3
Dokic v Davenport 0-9
Dokic v Henin 1-2
Dokic v Capriati 1-5
Dokic v Seles 1-3
Dokic v Clijsters 3-6

Total: 6-32

Dementieva v S. Williams 0-4
Dementieva v V. Williams 1-3
Dementieva v Davenport 4-9
Dementieva v Henin 1-7
Dementieva v Capriati 1-3
Dementieva v Seles 0-1
Dementieva v Clijsters 1-7

Total: 9-34

An unbiased person would say these records were similar. The fact is that these players are both below the top echelon. They are top 6-10 players. The thing is Dokic was playing at a time when there were real top 1-4 players so she didn't get the opportunity to make slam finals. Dementieva last year had the benefit of a field where the top 4 players were incapacitated. This year she is being put back in her place behind the Williamses, Belgians, Sharapova and Davenport.

Dementieva is 2-4 against Venus. Some other records might be different because Fed Cup is probably left out of these.

Robbie.
Jul 12th, 2005, 03:26 AM
Dementieva is 2-4 against Venus. Some other records might be different because Fed Cup is probably left out of these.

Where did you get the head to head from? I got them from wtatour.com. Fed Cup is included because they've got the match from the weekend. It says 3-1

Tripp
Jul 12th, 2005, 03:27 AM
Whatever. Jelena is just coming back from a long break, it's not that sad. She's a talented player and will get back to the top 100 once she gets used to the tour again and starts playing like she can.
The saddest story in tennis is Varvara Lepchenko's. The girl hasn't seen her mom for 4 years I believe and is not allowed to leave the US even tough she's ranked in the top 130. A talented up-and-coming player who can't even play the qualies of Grand Slams. Now that's sad. :sad:

Robbie.
Jul 12th, 2005, 03:32 AM
Oh, I see now they've left their first Fed Cup encounter and the Olympics out. Very confusing they only include some Fed Cup matches :shrug:

Knizzle
Jul 12th, 2005, 03:32 AM
Where did you get the head to head from? I got them from wtatour.com. Fed Cup is included because they've got the match from the weekend. It says 3-1

http://www.tenniscorner.net

The H2H would be 3-1 without their Fed Cup matches.

Knizzle
Jul 12th, 2005, 03:33 AM
Oh, I see now they've left their first Fed Cup encounter and the Olympics out. Very confusing they only include some Fed Cup matches :shrug:

Ok that's it then.

Cris Senior
Jul 12th, 2005, 05:18 AM
That entire post is totally incorrect. Jelena broke up with Enrique just after Wimbledon 2003. She was dating Tino Bikic just after the US Open in the very same year so any notion that they had a turbulent relation filled with break-ups and reconciliation is false.
Comment:
That's what you think. Several reporters have documented her personal life pretty well. Especially Matew Cronnin at Tennis Reporters and Pierre Cantin of TeenisRulz who talks to her just about every day and who introduced me to her in person at the USO in 2002.
These are very respected and well known tennis reporterss, especially among the players, and I don't have any reason to doubt their word. So, unless you are a closed relative of Jelena, I'd say you are the one on the wrong.

tennisrox
Jul 12th, 2005, 11:24 AM
She isn't at the same level now because she has been destroyed mentally. A large part of tennis is mental and when Jelena was in the top 10 she was one of the toughest players mentally. She was focussed and never gave up on matches. She is at her state now because she has had to go through the most painful thing an individual has to go through - estrangement from your family. Given the fact that she is so young and her previoiusly iron-clad relationship to her family it would be even more difficult for Jelena to play given the fact that she is alone.

She doesn't have a coach and travels by herself. The world can be lonely for a girl of 22. Jelena has admitted that when her father caused controversy in the past she would cry at night but she could still focus on her tennis because she had the support of her family. Now her father continues to torment her through the media - labeling her a whore, traitor and a drug cheat are just a few of the comments he has made. He has also claimed to have disowned Jelena and told her that she was dead to him. It's hard enough to compete at the highest level of the game when you have a stable home life, the thought of competing when your entire life is in a disarray and you're depressed is a difficult one to fathom. Jelena admitted she was in deep depression at last year's Wimbledon and the mere fact that she is still trying to regain some of the form that she once held is an indication of the determination she has.

Yes she played a lot of events...but so did the players around her. The only players to play a truly limited schedule were the Williams sisters. The players ranked around Jelena (apart from Jennifer, Lindsay and perhaps Monica) such as Myskina, Dementieva etc all played full schedules like Jelena. Yes she did give herself more room to have bad weeks but that doesn't detract from her big wins. The notion that one can get a high ranking by playing a lot of tournaments is a fallacy of the highest order. In fact, Dokic was the only player ranked in the top 20 that played as many events as she did (although as stated earlier the Russians and players around Jelena played a similar number) and this indicates that there's no correlation between the amount of tennis played and rank. Not to mention the wear and tear on the body and mind when playing a large amount of events would have certainly made it more difficult for Jelena to have the results that she did.

If it was so easy to get to no 4 then why haven't more players done it? You're contending that Jelena's climb can mostly be attributed to the amount of tournaments she played but that is a gorss misstatement and devoid of any accuracy or factual basis. She played well, won big matches and won tournaments. That's how she earned the ranking she did. Any statement to the contrary cannot be supported by anything more than pure dislike or bias against Jelena. Given the fact that many Williams fans rationalised the initial poor form of Venus and Serena as being attributed to the tragic death of her sister, it would seem that it wouldn't be all that difficult for them to comprehend how devastating it would be for a 22 year old girl to have lost her entire family.


Well said! :worship:
Poor jelena! :sad: I hope she can sort things out and get back to playing tour level soon.
Show her moronic bastard of a father a thing or two :fiery: I hope he burns in hell!!

maccardel
Jul 12th, 2005, 12:08 PM
Wow, 4 even, well I agree that was a bit too high for her without even a slam final. She also got her butt whipped by Chanda that summer in the L.A Open. I think that was the begining of the fall of her career, with all credit to Chanda for playing well, Jelena just made some of the most obscene errors in that match, especially in the first set :tape:

How is that too high? I think Jelena played better tennis at her peak than Daniela Hantuchova did at her peak in the top ten. It was only a matter of time before Jelena made it to the finals of a grand slam. I could only imagine that if she had held out for the fallout of the Williamses and belgians with injuries, then she would have been able to claim one of the grand slams that were up for grabs then. She was good and you have to admit it. I think what got to her was Damir and his ranting about the draws and moving from Australia. You have to admit, that is when her tennis started to fall off. If only she had played and then moved up the rankings and avoid top players until the round of 16 like now, she would have done it.

maccardel
Jul 12th, 2005, 12:11 PM
True, but she really didn't belong at #4. Look how quickly she fell apart. That's because other players learned to play to her [many] weaknesses and she couldn't raise her game to a higher level. It's too one-dimentional. The proof is that the girl can't even win a match in a Challenger-level tournament (0-6 in the 3rd set??? That's pretty bad for a former #4 player.)

Anyway, I'm not trying to put Jelena down and I know she's had tons of personal problems with her Daddy, but, I just think she was more lucky than good. Alex Stevenson and Mirjana Lucic are the same, they just fell faster than Jelena.

Well Alex had the same problem as Jelena in some ways, parent out of control. I think that destroyed both their games. If I could remember correctly, Alex made a run at Indian Wells a few years ago and was always a dangerous floater, it was Samantha that needed to shut up and let her play.

Alex always had game, but she also had a problem closing out matches (unless Jennifer Capriati was on the other side of the net).

Mr_Molik
Jul 12th, 2005, 12:22 PM
alicia :sad:

WorldWar24
Jul 12th, 2005, 04:04 PM
If anything, it shows the laughable depth of the tour of Serena Slam times. Oh yeah, Hantuchova was Top 5 too.. :lol:

But, seriously, what is happening to Dokic is a bit of a mystery. She seems to be healthy. How come Alina Jidkova can be a Top 100 resident and Jelena Dokic can't? Either she is total idiot, not capable of doing anything on her own, or she has some issues that we are not aware of.

She has issues, which WE ARE AWARE OF. In fact she always had issues, but she could block things out. As she got dumped by more and more people in her life, she lost confidence in everything, including her own game and her ability to prevent outside troubles from disturbing her. There's so much evidence of what she has had to deal with, I could write a book on that

skanky~skanketta
Jul 12th, 2005, 04:07 PM
the saddest story in women's tennis would be injuries hitting the laides and ruining their careers. the big ones that springs to mind are chanda rubin, maggie maleeva and anna kournikova. even hingis. yes yes, i know that some would say it was the power game that took her out but injuries did play a big part.

raquel
Jul 12th, 2005, 06:11 PM
The saddest story in tennis is Varvara Lepchenko's. The girl hasn't seen her mom for 4 years I believe and is not allowed to leave the US even tough she's ranked in the top 130. A talented up-and-coming player who can't even play the qualies of Grand Slams. Now that's sad. :sad:
What's the story behind that one? Is she under threat of not being allowed back out of her home country if she tries to leave the way Martina Navratilova was in the 1970s?

Excellent posts from jd4eva - sums it up correctly I think.

vutt
Jul 12th, 2005, 07:43 PM
Comment:
So, unless you are a closed relative of Jelena, I'd say you are the one on the wrong.

You are relative new to Dokic fanbase. jd4eva was one of the guys who run jelena-online.com site. I think no fan site ever got closer to her camp than those guys. No offence Pierre. So in a sense he was part of her family. If I recall correctly then he used to talk often with Jelena's brother via MSN.

moon
Jul 12th, 2005, 09:04 PM
jelena may have overplayed while she was at the top (which arguably made her results suffer), and she may have gotten a little fatigued while she was still a great player, but it's NOT the reason for her fall in the rankings and long period of inactivity. it's not a physical thing with her.

justine also is cutting back NOW that she has had a debilitating virus. the virus had nothing to do with her playing too much tennis, but for her future, now she has to play less because she has less energy BECAUSE OF THE VIRUS.

are you really going to be this stupid? there is NO WAY you can prove that if she played just 20 tournaments that her results would not be good enough for top 4. what we know is that her best 17 put her in the top 4 and that she didn't count 13 of her tournaments, which means a whole lot of MATCHES WON didn't go toward her ranking AT ALL. for all we know if she had played just 20 events, her results could have been better. there's no evidence to the contrary.

if jelena put in the time, travel, effort, and energy to play way more than all the other girls whose bodies can't take it, then she fucking deserved to have her point total padded.

First of all you need to lighten up.
Secondly, I never said she didn't deserve to have her point total padded, I'm just saying that was what happened, and the results were her higher ranking.
Third--because my opinion differs from yours, is no reason to start namecalling. This board is for OPINIONS is it not. Mine is different from yours, and just like there is nothing to prove my theory, there is nothing to prove yours either. And unlike you, I actually don't feel the need to prove anything to you, or any other person on this board. I stated my opinion, and if you don't like it, GET OVER IT.

Lastly, don't bother looking for my response to whatever you may write, because life is too short to have pointless arguments on a message board. Besides, I'm off to the Hamptons. Ta Ta!

aheee!!
Jul 12th, 2005, 09:19 PM
Based on what? :confused:

Based on her play before she took a nosedive. Dokicis a top 15 player--no doubt about that. she has a solid game when her head is on straight . I think she was grossly over-ranked when she got to #4. Eevry so often you have that aberration--coetzer got to #3, Tauziat to #3, Hantuchova to #5. None of them belonged there. Dokic is a lower echelon player. She'll never win a slam, neither will petrova, schnyder, zvonareva, etc..., but she is certainly on the same playing level as them and other top 20 players