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The Pro
Jul 9th, 2005, 02:53 PM
Anyone remember this girl?

http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerBio.asp?ID=&EntityID=1&CustomerID=0&OrderID=0&ReturnURL=/&PlayerID=40130

Apparently she got to number 4 in the world and then just stopped playing tennis for some reason. The most successful Japanese tennis player ever.

Apparently she forced herself to play right handed, even though she was a lefty.

ToeTag
Jul 9th, 2005, 03:10 PM
I remember Kimiko. She hit the ball unbelievably flat. I think she retired due to injury...she beat and came close to beating many top players, including my fave, Sabatini.
I remember that match she played against Graf at Wimbledon, and she had Graf on ropes until the rain came, and match was halted. Graf came back the next day and won...unfortunately. Had it not rained Date would have won.

Oneofakind0490
Jul 9th, 2005, 03:12 PM
Didn't she retire because of the new ranking system and she would never be able to play 17 tournaments?

Shonami Slam
Jul 9th, 2005, 03:18 PM
career high #4 has some really great players.

ezekiel
Jul 9th, 2005, 03:20 PM
I like the name KIMIKO, KIMIKO, KIMIKO... :lol:

Rising Sun
Jul 9th, 2005, 03:34 PM
I remember Kimiko. She hit the ball unbelievably flat. I think she retired due to injury...she beat and came close to beating many top players, including my fave, Sabatini.
I remember that match she played against Graf at Wimbledon, and she had Graf on ropes until the rain came, and match was halted. Graf came back the next day and won...unfortunately. Had it not rained Date would have won.
Wasn't it due to bad light? :confused:

raquel
Jul 9th, 2005, 03:53 PM
A lot of people say Date would have won that Graf match at Wimbledon if it hadn't been stopped but it's not like she was leading 5-0 in the third when they came off court. Steffi on grass could have still won that match if they had played on I always think but it seems to be the agreed story years later that Date would have won. It's not that clear cut to me.

Calimero377
Jul 9th, 2005, 03:53 PM
I remember Kimiko. She hit the ball unbelievably flat. I think she retired due to injury...she beat and came close to beating many top players, including my fave, Sabatini.
I remember that match she played against Graf at Wimbledon, and she had Graf on ropes until the rain came, and match was halted. Graf came back the next day and won...unfortunately. Had it not rained Date would have won.


Bad recollection. There was no rain ....

And why should Date have won without the darkness break?
Graf has won 72 % of her three-set matches during her long career.
When she was #1 in the rankings the percentage was even higher (78 %; 56-16). That means Graf won almost 4 of 5 three-setters in her prime. :worship:

Calimero377
Jul 9th, 2005, 03:55 PM
A lot of people say Date would have won that Graf match at Wimbledon if it hadn't been stopped but it's not like she was leading 5-0 in the third when they came off court. Steffi on grass could have still won that match if they had played on I always think but it seems to be the story years later that Date was on the verge of winning.


The usual BS from Graf haters.
They forget that Graf won 78% of 3-setters during her time as #1 in the world.

But Graf and her fans can deal with those "woulda-coulda" haters ...

raquel
Jul 9th, 2005, 04:02 PM
What was the score when they came off court at Wimbledon, does anyone remember? I think it was one set all and they came off before a third was started?

Date was a great player though. She had a nice compact style and always fought hard. She had a lot more energy than you would have thought to look at her. And although she was not well built she timed the ball so well on her groundstrokes that she could hit winners from all over.

gorecki
Jul 9th, 2005, 04:30 PM
i believe Kimiko's reached the semifinals of AO (93), RG(95?), Wimbledon(96) and the QFs of USO. :yeah:

has anyone watched her 96 fed cup match against Steffi or the two matches in japan for Steffi's farewell tour in 2000?

gorecki
Jul 9th, 2005, 04:37 PM
:wavey: raquel

i love her very flat compact groundstrokes and she would use her opponent's pace and create winners off from them

Rollo
Jul 9th, 2005, 04:43 PM
There's a thread or two bumped up about Kimiko in the Blast from the past foum.

Anyone into retired players is welcome to join us!:)

http://www.wtaworld.com/forumdisplay.php?f=59

Rollo
Jul 9th, 2005, 04:53 PM
What was the score when they came off court at Wimbledon, does anyone remember? I think it was one set all and they came off before a third was started? You're right Raquel. They split sets then it was called for darkness. That the the day a man in the crowd yelled out "Steffi will you marry me?" She ignored it for a second, got ready to serve, and couldn't let it pass.

"How much money do you have?" she yelled back. The whole joint got a big laugh out of that.

Calimero377
Jul 9th, 2005, 05:03 PM
There's a thread or two bumped up about Kimiko in the Blast from the past foum.

Anyone into retired players is welcome to join us!:)
...


Really?
:confused:

ToeTag
Jul 9th, 2005, 05:07 PM
A lot of people say Date would have won that Graf match at Wimbledon if it hadn't been stopped but it's not like she was leading 5-0 in the third when they came off court. Steffi on grass could have still won that match if they had played on I always think but it seems to be the agreed story years later that Date would have won. It's not that clear cut to me.
Yes but by the end of the second Date had the momentum and was out playing Graf!!
Thats right it was darkness not rain, and I don't remember Date having any probs with the light or lack of it...though Graf couldn't wait to get off the court. :lol: :lol:

Helen Lawson
Jul 9th, 2005, 05:09 PM
That was one of my favorite Graf matches because that's when the guy proposed to her from the crowd and she asked him how much money he had.

ashwu
Jul 9th, 2005, 05:11 PM
the match was suspended several times due to the rain. everytime it looked like date would go on and win the match, then came the rain. that's a strange match to watch, i like steffi, but have to agree kimiko would have won if it's not the rain. it's like goran's win over tim henman. it's just destiny i guess.

Fantastic
Jul 9th, 2005, 05:16 PM
Was Kimiko really concerned about the change in ranking system? Because she didn't need to play 17 events to keep a ranking. She could still be Top 10 playing only 12-14 events. The Williams sisters have been doing it for years. The new ranking system never said that you MUST play 17 tournaments to keep a ranking. The only thing playing 17 tournaments means is that you get a bonus pool payment at the end of the year for all your efforts.

I think the real reason was that Kimiko was bored with tennis, competing and the pressure. Her passion for tennis was waning. No one who loves playing tennis would retire due to a new ranking system unless they are badly injured or lost their motivation to continue.
That's just my take on things. If she actually did say that she retired due to the new ranking system, then I would doubt that she's telling the whole truth. It was more likely an excuse to retire, not the sole reason for it.

ashwu
Jul 9th, 2005, 05:18 PM
i remember they said she just don't wanna play until she's 30. she just wants to retire. tennis is not all her life.
she's teaching children play tennis now.
(i could be wrong, i have bad memory~)

Calimero377
Jul 9th, 2005, 06:14 PM
the match was suspended several times due to the rain. everytime it looked like date would go on and win the match, then came the rain. that's a strange match to watch, i like steffi, but have to agree kimiko would have won if it's not the rain. it's like goran's win over tim henman. it's just destiny i guess.


There was no rain.
The match was suspended only once due to nightfall (after 2nd set).

BS like that destroys any credibility concering who you think might have won.

Calimero377
Jul 9th, 2005, 06:16 PM
i remember they said she just don't wanna play until she's 30. she just wants to retire. tennis is not all her life.
she's teaching children play tennis now.
(i could be wrong, i have bad memory~)


We know.
The rain.
And that Date would have won without "the rain".

D**** .........

pcrtennis
Jul 9th, 2005, 06:18 PM
There was no rain.
The match was suspended only once due to nightfall (after 2nd set).

BS like that destroys any credibility concering who you think might have won.


You need to settle down, your obsessive Graf-defending gets tiring and sad... :rolleyes:

Calimero377
Jul 9th, 2005, 06:23 PM
You need to settle down, your obsessive Graf-defending gets tiring and sad... :rolleyes:


Oops, now even fact-defending gets "tiring and sad" for some folks here ...

OK, the rain ......
Yes, and Date would have won.
Without "the rain".

:rolleyes:

mauresmofan
Jul 9th, 2005, 06:29 PM
I remember that match - Graf had won the first set 6-2 and was 2-0 up in the second and they had a really tough game - went to deuce/advantage so many times and finally Kimiko took it and went on to win the next 5 games as well to win the second set 6-2 and then it was called off for bad light. Graf was on the ropes but I wouldn't say that it was all down to just bad light that Kimiko lost if they had played on I'd say it would have been a terrific battle!

It was known back then that Kimiko was a slow starter and Graf a very fast starter and the next morning Graf won the final set 6-3. I loved Kimikos hard flat strokes and very occasionally when she was pushed out wide on her backhand she'd play a great one handed left handed forehand and get back in the point.

She retired at World no.7 if memory served me correct!

Steffica Greles
Jul 9th, 2005, 06:43 PM
What a lunatic...

Anyway. As for Kimiko, she was easily the best player to emanate from the far east. She hit the ball incredibly flat and posed many problems for all the top players.

Best results. SF Aust 94, SF French Open 95, SF Wimbledon 96, QF U.S Open 1994

She also won San Diego and Tokyo, among other tier 2 titles.

Her balls were hit with no spin and taken incredibly early. There was no pace on her shots, but the ball seemed to just vanish in the air and then land on the baseline. This was because she hit the ball so low over the net and so early. Her light hitting meant that opponents' reactions were slower because they weren't playing "reaction" tennis, and sometimes they'd look like they were perplexed as to where her shots were going to land.

Unfortunately, Kimiko seemed to always lack motivation. She seldom played in Europe and her best results were often followed by lows. Hence her retirement at 26 when she'd just played her best year on the tour.

Kimiko certainly had the momentum in that match against Steffi in 1996. The crowd were on their feet applauding her skill, and Steffi included. Certainly the commentary felt that the match was stopped at a very bad time for her after she'd taken the second set. Let's not forget that she had beaten Steffi earlier that year -- 1996 -- in the Fed Cup on a fast indoor court, so she had every reason to be confident.

It's a shame she didn't see out the 1990s, or even the early part of this decade. She was by far and away the most skillful player ever to come from that region of the world, and it may remain that way for many decades yet.

Steffica Greles
Jul 9th, 2005, 06:48 PM
Oh, let's not forget her folding of towels at changeovers. At 5'2 she was a neat, petite, pretty little precisionist. And her movement was so light footed that she barely broke a blade of grass.

azinna
Jul 9th, 2005, 07:07 PM
Remember Kimiko. My sister and I were taking our trig, pre-calc and calculus classes at the time KD came into prominence. And we just about broke out the equipment and formulas to measure her angles. She didn't play tennis. She played geometry. Exceptional stuff. We were sad when she decided to retire. Her stated reason was relatively clear: she hadn't planned to play till she was 30. And she wished to marry and start a family.

Remember that Wimbledon match with Steffi clearly. Folks need to recall that Kimiko had a habit of starting slow, her shots missing wide on both sides, and losing the first set of her slam matches. Then she'd get into a groove and never get out of it. That was the pattern, and (as a Steffi fan) it was astonishing and worrying to see that pattern being repeated. We were heading into a truly tough 3rd set. It would have been interesting to see if/how Steffi would have worked around a Kimiko Date at full flight.

Instead, that 3rd set was postponed to the next day. And we basically watched the two play a repeat of the 1st set.

Wolfram Hart
Jul 9th, 2005, 07:22 PM
What a lunatic...

Anyway. As for Kimiko, she was easily the best player to emanate from the far east. She hit the ball incredibly flat and posed many problems for all the top players.

Best results. SF Aust 94, SF French Open 95, SF Wimbledon 96, QF U.S Open 1994

She also won San Diego and Tokyo, among other tier 2 titles.

Her balls were hit with no spin and taken incredibly early. There was no pace on her shots, but the ball seemed to just vanish in the air and then land on the baseline. This was because she hit the ball so low over the net and so early. Her light hitting meant that opponents' reactions were slower because they weren't playing "reaction" tennis, and sometimes they'd look like they were perplexed as to where her shots were going to land.

Unfortunately, Kimiko seemed to always lack motivation. She seldom played in Europe and her best results were often followed by lows. Hence her retirement at 26 when she'd just played her best year on the tour.

Kimiko certainly had the momentum in that match against Steffi in 1996. The crowd were on their feet applauding her skill, and Steffi included. Certainly the commentary felt that the match was stopped at a very bad time for her after she'd taken the second set. Let's not forget that she had beaten Steffi earlier that year -- 1996 -- in the Fed Cup on a fast indoor court, so she had every reason to be confident.

It's a shame she didn't see out the 1990s, or even the early part of this decade. She was by far and away the most skillful player ever to come from that region of the world, and it may remain that way for many decades yet.

Which one? There’s so many around here.

Wolfram Hart
Jul 9th, 2005, 07:31 PM
Kimiko was definitely on her way to victory, had the match not been stopped late on in the third set due to poor light. Steffi even admitted as much herself when she commented “I’m not sure I would be playing this final had the semi final carried on, before being ended due to poor light, Kimiko was on top and I was struggling”

Calimero377
Jul 9th, 2005, 07:42 PM
Kimiko was definitely on her way to victory, had the match not been stopped late on in the third set due to poor light. Steffi even admitted as much herself when she commented “I’m not sure I would be playing this final had the semi final carried on, before being ended due to poor light, Kimiko was on top and I was struggling”


"Definitely" = "not sure" .... ?

Graf is a modest girl.
But she DEFINITELY would have won the 3rd set anyway.
After all she has a 56-16 win/loss record as #1-ranked player in 3-set matches ...

FaceyFacem
Jul 9th, 2005, 07:44 PM
That was one of my favorite Graf matches because that's when the guy proposed to her from the crowd and she asked him how much money he had.

that's always going to be the first thing i think of when i think of kimiko, even though its really a steffi moment, but i remember that most about her, that match and that comment by steffi

Shvedbarilescu
Jul 9th, 2005, 07:46 PM
As others have said the match wasn't called for rain but bad light. Kimiko was a slow starter (indeed she had also dropped the 1st set in her four previous matches) and she was never going to win when they played the 3rd set the next day but by the 2nd set she was playing awesome tennis with incredible disguise and touch. Whether she would have been able to keep it up had there still been enough light we will never know. I have to admit my own personal feeling is Kimiko would have pulled it off. That match made me a Date fan for sure.

Wolfram Hart
Jul 9th, 2005, 07:51 PM
"Definitely" = "not sure" .... ?

Graf is a modest girl.
But she DEFINITELY would have won the 3rd set anyway.
After all she has a 56-16 win/loss record as #1-ranked player in 3-set matches ...

Definitely is what the overwhelming majority believe, and we can never argue with majority consent, can we.

And not sure, is Steffi conceding how fortunate she was to be making an appearance in the Wimbledon final.

And what her previous record in three set matches was has no real/major bearing whatsoever on that particular match. If it did then fans/players would know which player would win before the match would be played.

Declan
Jul 9th, 2005, 07:56 PM
i remember they said she just don't wanna play until she's 30. she just wants to retire. tennis is not all her life.
she's teaching children play tennis now.
(i could be wrong, i have bad memory~)


No, you're about right. Date said she'd achieved as much as she was going to in tennis (she listed reaching the Wimbledon semis-finals and defeating Steffi in the Fed Cup as her highlights) and it was tiring with all the non-stop travel and being away from home.

Calimero377
Jul 9th, 2005, 08:03 PM
Definitely is what the overwhelming majority believe, and we can never argue with majority consent, can we.

And not sure, is Steffi conceding how fortunate she was to be making an appearance in the Wimbledon final.

And what her previous record in three set matches was has no real/major bearing whatsoever on that particular match. If it did then fans/players would know which player would win before the match would be played.


The (overwhelming?) majority always thinks that the player who won the 2nd set will win the 3rd as well.
The cause?
The masses have a tendency for binary thinking ....

Wolfram Hart
Jul 9th, 2005, 08:07 PM
The (overwhelming?) majority always thinks that the player who won the 2nd set will win the 3rd as well.
The cause?
The masses have a tendency for binary thinking ....

So, you discard the opinion of those who believe Steffi to be the greatest ever, interesting.

spencercarlos
Jul 9th, 2005, 08:23 PM
What a lunatic...

Anyway. As for Kimiko, she was easily the best player to emanate from the far east. She hit the ball incredibly flat and posed many problems for all the top players.

Best results. SF Aust 94, SF French Open 95, SF Wimbledon 96, QF U.S Open 1994

She also won San Diego and Tokyo, among other tier 2 titles.

Her balls were hit with no spin and taken incredibly early. There was no pace on her shots, but the ball seemed to just vanish in the air and then land on the baseline. This was because she hit the ball so low over the net and so early. Her light hitting meant that opponents' reactions were slower because they weren't playing "reaction" tennis, and sometimes they'd look like they were perplexed as to where her shots were going to land.

Unfortunately, Kimiko seemed to always lack motivation. She seldom played in Europe and her best results were often followed by lows. Hence her retirement at 26 when she'd just played her best year on the tour.

Kimiko certainly had the momentum in that match against Steffi in 1996. The crowd were on their feet applauding her skill, and Steffi included. Certainly the commentary felt that the match was stopped at a very bad time for her after she'd taken the second set. Let's not forget that she had beaten Steffi earlier that year -- 1996 -- in the Fed Cup on a fast indoor court, so she had every reason to be confident.

It's a shame she didn't see out the 1990s, or even the early part of this decade. She was by far and away the most skillful player ever to come from that region of the world, and it may remain that way for many decades yet.
It´s incredible how OVERRATED Kimiko Date is on this board. For a player that only won 7 titles (2 Tier two and 1 Tier I), she is talked as if she was "ALMOST" the Wimbledon Champion in 1996. And sure she was a good player, improved consistency tons as her carreer progressed, but i don´t think she would have beaten Graf that day. Graf was up 6-2 2-0 and Kimiko played her best tennis and Graf pretty much gave away the last game to make it even and ran off the court to complete the match the next day. Graf sure lost 6 games in a row, but Graf (as she did the next day) would have played the third with much more compossure.
She barely beat Graf in that Fed Cup match, saving a 0-5 first set deficit and erasing match point in the third set, but then again it was "only" a Fed Cup match, it was not such a big upset like many people on this board overhypes/overrates about it.
Date´s game had nothing impressive to be honest, she was consistent as hell and sometimes she could find some crazy angles, but to compare her to Seles of the early 90´s its a bit too much, she lacked that consistency and that agressiveness that Seles had. She lacked a serve, she lacked net play and had little variety, her patterns were always pretty much the same.

pcrtennis
Jul 10th, 2005, 01:32 AM
It´s incredible how OVERRATED Kimiko Date is on this board. For a player that only won 7 titles (2 Tier two and 1 Tier I), she is talked as if she was "ALMOST" the Wimbledon Champion in 1996. And sure she was a good player, improved consistency tons as her carreer progressed, but i don´t think she would have beaten Graf that day. Graf was up 6-2 2-0 and Kimiko played her best tennis and Graf pretty much gave away the last game to make it even and ran off the court to complete the match the next day. Graf sure lost 6 games in a row, but Graf (as she did the next day) would have played the third with much more compossure.
She barely beat Graf in that Fed Cup match, saving a 0-5 first set deficit and erasing match point in the third set, but then again it was "only" a Fed Cup match, it was not such a big upset like many people on this board overhypes/overrates about it.
Date´s game had nothing impressive to be honest, she was consistent as hell and sometimes she could find some crazy angles, but to compare her to Seles of the early 90´s its a bit too much, she lacked that consistency and that agressiveness that Seles had. She lacked a serve, she lacked net play and had little variety, her patterns were always pretty much the same.



Much of her praise is because she was a 5'4 Japanese player. A country and continent who had never before produced a player as successful and able she was. She got to 3 slam semi's and nearly more semi's and possibly one final at least. She won only 7 titels, yes, but she didn't play as many tournaments as most of the otehr players and only played pro for 9 years, so that's very impressive. Plus, almost oall oif her titles were big titles, not small little ones like so many players have.

To discount her match in the semi's of Wimbleodn against Graf and her win against Graf in Fed Cup is rediculous, now you're just looking for reasons to put her career down. She had an incredbily good chance of winning that match with the momentum she had, did you even watch it? If you had watched it you should understand. PLus how are you to say that 12-10 win over Graf in Fed Cup is like no win over Graf at all, that's whatc your saying. A win is a win and Graf wanted that match as much as Date but Date outplayed her in the end, period.

Kimiko Date was a great player who played a limited schedule for a limited amount of time and had some great wins over GRAF, Sanchez-Vicario, NOvotna, Davenport, Sabatini, Martinez, Fernandez etc. She had a very, ver solid and successful career. I could take anyone's career and make t sound less impressive, such as Graf's with the old (yet true) if Seles hadn't been stabbed reason. She's not overhyped, she's not over-praised....Just stop trying to belittel her career because is was a VERY impressive one. :rolleyes: ;)

spencercarlos
Jul 10th, 2005, 06:22 AM
Much of her praise is because she was a 5'4 Japanese player. A country and continent who had never before produced a player as successful and able she was. She got to 3 slam semi's and nearly more semi's and possibly one final at least. She won only 7 titels, yes, but she didn't play as many tournaments as most of the otehr players and only played pro for 9 years, so that's very impressive. Plus, almost oall oif her titles were big titles, not small little ones like so many players have.

To discount her match in the semi's of Wimbleodn against Graf and her win against Graf in Fed Cup is rediculous, now you're just looking for reasons to put her career down. She had an incredbily good chance of winning that match with the momentum she had, did you even watch it? If you had watched it you should understand. PLus how are you to say that 12-10 win over Graf in Fed Cup is like no win over Graf at all, that's whatc your saying. A win is a win and Graf wanted that match as much as Date but Date outplayed her in the end, period.

Kimiko Date was a great player who played a limited schedule for a limited amount of time and had some great wins over GRAF, Sanchez-Vicario, NOvotna, Davenport, Sabatini, Martinez, Fernandez etc. She had a very, ver solid and successful career. I could take anyone's career and make t sound less impressive, such as Graf's with the old (yet true) if Seles hadn't been stabbed reason. She's not overhyped, she's not over-praised....Just stop trying to belittel her career because is was a VERY impressive one. :rolleyes: ;)
I have it taped, in fact i could bring it to the board any time i want.. Let´s see probably i will surprise you.
Most of her titles are Big titles?, as i stated in the post only Sydney 94, Tokio Pan pacific 95 and San Diego 96 were her biggest tournaments won by Date. The rest are 4 Tokio´s the April tournament which was Tier III at least.

Very impressive?Date´s carreer was not better than:
Mary Joe Fernandez
Helena Sukova
Anke Huber
Iva Majoli

There you have 3 slamless players and Majoli who won a slam.
What could be said of Novotna, Sabatini, Martinez ? ULTRA IMPRESSIVE? :tape:
Date indeed was a good, consistent player, but not a grand slam champion, not even grand slam finalist, so stop the overrating on her.

Robbie.
Jul 10th, 2005, 06:32 AM
I have it taped, in fact i could bring it to the board any time i want.. Let´s see probably i will surprise you.
Most of her titles are Big titles?, as i stated in the post only Sydney 94, Tokio Pan pacific 95 and San Diego 96 were her biggest tournaments won by Date. The rest are 4 Tokio´s the April tournament which was Tier III at least.

Very impressive?Date´s carreer was not better than:
Mary Joe Fernandez
Helena Sukova
Anke Huber
Iva Majoli

There you have 3 slamless players and Majoli who won a slam.
What could be said of Novotna, Sabatini, Martinez ? ULTRA IMPRESSIVE? :tape:
Date indeed was a good, consistent player, but not a grand slam champion, not even grand slam finalist, so stop the overrating on her.

I understand what you mean. You can throw Amanda Coetzer into that list as well. But I think you might be overreacting a little bit. I don't think anyone considers her to be better than those players or on par with Novotna, Sabatini, Martinez. But it's good from time to time to talk about these players. Although they may not have been champions they gave us some great moments over the years.

pcrtennis
Jul 10th, 2005, 06:35 AM
Did I ever say she was a grand slam champion? Are you that stupid??? I said she has had a very impressive career ESPECIALLY FROM A PLAYER WHO STANDS AT ONLY 5'4 AND COMES FROM JAPAN!!! She has had very impressive runs in big tournaments like the one in Miami in the mid 90's and many more...San Diego is a BIG tournament where she beat Martinez and Sanchez Vicario in rather convincing fashion as well as pummeling Davenport at a big event in Tokyo (Not to mention her many QF and several SF appearences in GS's were the result of tough wins against very good players and often barely lost at those stages as well)...She has had many very good wins and she was only improving into 1996, even Graf said that. No where did I say she was a GS finalist or Champion. She reached 4 in the world and stayed in the top ten for quite some time...She has had an impressive career, you can't deny that and it is different from those other players because Japan had never had anyone, or Asia, who played at that level. That's why she is so endeared, if you don't understand that than you just can't appreciate what kind of figure she has been in Asia and specifically Japan....There is no need for people like you to try to put down players' careers just because of your own insensitive, ignorant and bitter feelings towards them....just get over it, people like and respect her....

PS. Had she played longer than NINE YEARS and limited tournaments per year I bet she would have been on par with several of your mentioned players

spencercarlos
Jul 10th, 2005, 07:06 AM
I understand what you mean. You can throw Amanda Coetzer into that list as well. But I think you might be overreacting a little bit. I don't think anyone considers her to be better than those players or on par with Novotna, Sabatini, Martinez. But it's good from time to time to talk about these players. Although they may not have been champions they gave us some great moments over the years.
Yeah man but there you see people like pcrtennis among many other who think without any real argument that a then 19 time GS champion was already lost in a match where a third set was to be played. That is simply ridiculous. You can´t count a 19 time GS champion like that, playing on her best surface, the match was tight and close, but to be honest Date was "only" a set from winning, not like she was just a couple of points away from it, and even if that would happen, Graf has showed many many times that she can come back from defeat time after time and in GS matches.
Date was a good player. Not a great one. Period.

pcrtennis
Jul 10th, 2005, 07:12 AM
Yeah man but there you see people like pcrtennis among many other who think without any real argument that a then 19 time GS champion was already lost in a match where a third set was to be played. That is simply ridiculous. You can´t count a 19 time GS champion like that, playing on her best surface, the match was tight and close, but to be honest Date was "only" a set from winning, not like she was just a couple of points away from it, and even if that would happen, Graf has showed many many times that she can come back from defeat time after time and in GS matches.
Date was a good player. Not a great one. Period.


I never said she would have won but I would have placed my bet on ehr under the circumstances. Grass was Kimiko's best surface too and beat Graf, YES BEAT GRAF, on similar surface earlier that yeay. I liked Kimiko's chances without an interruption.

Kimiko Date was not just a 'good' player, she was number four in the world for a while so that constitutes a grweat player whatever you might think. No one said anything that warranted your bitter sputtering. Just let people appreciate a great player in Kimiko Date.

PS I like how you completely disregarded what I said in the last post clearly you had nothing to return :lol:)

spencercarlos
Jul 10th, 2005, 07:29 AM
I never said she would have won but I would have placed my bet on ehr under the circumstances. Grass was Kimiko's best surface too and beat Graf, YES BEAT GRAF, on similar surface earlier that yeay. I liked Kimiko's chances without an interruption.

Kimiko Date was not just a 'good' player, she was number four in the world for a while so that constitutes a grweat player whatever you might think. No one said anything that warranted your bitter sputtering. Just let people appreciate a great player in Kimiko Date.

PS I like how you completely disregarded what I said in the last post clearly you had nothing to return :lol:)
Go and look for the definition of IMPRESSIVE. Then comeback here and talk about it.
No no its ok i´ll do it for you..
From Dictionary.com
"Making a strong or vivid impression; striking or remarkable"
Impressive if you reduct your tennis circle to ASIA, yeah impressive, among the best if not best, im not sure. But if you are talking overall, no sorry, Date did not have an impressive carreer.
I would like to ask you how Date´s best surface was grass? :confused: :rolleyes:
:wavey:

pcrtennis
Jul 10th, 2005, 07:34 AM
She hits flat = best surface is a fast, skiddy surface = Grass....come on you could have figured that one out....

Kimiko Date left an impression on people not only in Asia which, by the way, encompasses a pretty large number of people, but on many, many people. Just like Huber, who didn't have a great career by YOUR standards left an impression on many people not just in Germany. Just let people respect ehr and appreciate her career which was very impressive, how many people get to 4 in the world, beat Graf, get to 3 SFof GS's and many QF, win 7 tournaments (several big ones included), get to ther semi's of the WTA championships, plus many very good wins.

JUST LET PEOPLE APPRECIATE HER AND SHUT UP!

spencercarlos
Jul 10th, 2005, 07:45 AM
I apreciatte her buddy i dunno why you are so mad :p
Date was a fighter and she indeed played her best ever in that second set against Graf in the semis, while Graf´s play was not as good, but she was definetly not out of it.
Try to make better arguments. Mary Pierce hits flat and yet she is not a good grass court player, Grass is in fact her worse surface.
Let me help you a lot more now and bring up some stats to support my theory.
This is Date´s overall carreer stats by surface:
125-48 (173)72,25% hard
25-16 (41) 60,97% clay
21-13 (34) 61,76% carpet
22-14 (36) 61,11 grass
It may surprise you but Date was marginally better on grass than she was on clay, that says a lot.
And there should be NO question about which was her best surface.. :rolleyes:
Date has 7 hard courts tournament wins. 0 tournament wins on grass. That says a lot too. Go and do your math man. Then come here and talk.

pcrtennis
Jul 10th, 2005, 07:50 AM
Okay if you know math so well you qwould realize that there are substantially fewer grass court tournaments than there are clay and harcourt and carpet. In fact there are only 2 weeks of grass tennis before Wimbledon, so that means WAY FEWER GRASS COURT MATCHES!!! I would hope you know how that affects percentages like that.

Before you start pulling out these stats, try to understand thema bit better buddy...you just made yourself look really ignorant...and well....stupid as well! haha

Date's shots stayed very low to the ground and she hit the ball extremely ealry, if you knew something about how tennis works you would see how that is effective on grass (ie Tamarine Tanasugarn)...Mary Pierce hits flat as well but not the same kind of flat...

spencercarlos
Jul 10th, 2005, 08:01 AM
Okay if you know math so well you qwould realize that there are substantially fewer grass court tournaments than there are clay and harcourt and carpet. In fact there are only 2 weeks of grass tennis before Wimbledon, so that means WAY FEWER GRASS COURT MATCHES!!! I would hope you know how that affects percentages like that.

Before you start pulling out these stats, try to understand thema bit better buddy...you just made yourself look really ignorant...and well....stupid as well! haha

Date's shots stayed very low to the ground and she hit the ball extremely ealry, if you knew something about how tennis works you would see how that is effective on grass (ie Tamarine Tanasugarn)...Mary Pierce hits flat as well but not the same kind of flat...

What?
No no no. Take a pause and think again before talking. Percentages have nothing to do with the "amount" of tournaments played during the year. If Date was really a good grass court player she would be better than the 22-14 match record she had, she could easily be at 27-9 for example and be 75% win/loss record and be better than she was on hard courts which is 72,25% no matter how many grass court events are played during the year.
And at least have some grass court tournaments win, then i can accept an statement like that. But Date´s best surface being grass? No. Period.

Now that you mention it.. Tell me the kinds of flat (strokes) that exists in tennis? :confused:

pcrtennis
Jul 10th, 2005, 08:06 AM
You've lost the point, you insist on bringing down her career and you know you've lost and so you harp on what I said her best or favorite surface was......I don't think those numbers are nearly as telling as you seem to, but anyway...

You know that Pierce's groundstrokes and Date's ground strkes are different. Date takes the ball earlier and her balls stay very low (Graf said this exact thing about why Date is so tough) while Pierce does not take the ball as early and because of her height her shots don't stay as low, so they arent quite as effective.

Now just concede she's a very good player with a verygood player and just shut up and away. You've run out of things to criticize here to find somewhere else to go....

HAVE FUN !!!!

spencercarlos
Jul 10th, 2005, 08:37 AM
You've lost the point, you insist on bringing down her career and you know you've lost and so you harp on what I said her best or favorite surface was......I don't think those numbers are nearly as telling as you seem to, but anyway...

You know that Pierce's groundstrokes and Date's ground strkes are different. Date takes the ball earlier and her balls stay very low (Graf said this exact thing about why Date is so tough) while Pierce does not take the ball as early and because of her height her shots don't stay as low, so they arent quite as effective.

Now just concede she's a very good player with a verygood player and just shut up and away. You've run out of things to criticize here to find somewhere else to go....

HAVE FUN !!!!
Do i have lost my harp? Why? Because you think those numbers means nothing?
.. wrong again. I could easily say that your words means nothing, but not the statistics, because they are there, and they are every explicit. Grass was Date´s third best surface and marginally better than clay. Numbers don´t lie. 0 tournament wins on grass don´t lie. Im not manipulating anything im bringing up the stats, so you are completly wrong.
Ok Date is a VERY good player. Not impressive.
But her carreer is not up to par with the Coetzer, Huber, Fernandez, Sukova, Tauziat types. So they are ULTRA VERY GOOD PLAYERS?
Then what Sabatini, Martinez, Novotna´s carrers are?
Then what Hingis,Venus, Henin, Mandlikova´s carrers are?
Then what Serena, Seles´s carrers are?
And finally what Graf, Navratilova, Evert, Court´s carrers are?
You really need to fix your standards. Period.

The Pro
Jul 10th, 2005, 08:46 AM
For crying out loud, we have 2 Graf fans in this thread, almost point blank refusing to consider that Date would have beaten Graf.

Is it so bad to speculate about a match that was around 10 years ago?

This match was a semi final right? So she had the momentum against Graf and was close to a final, and then darkness set in and she lost. Of course people are gonna speculate and click their fingers and say "Oh crap, the dainty, cute, impressive oriental player missed out on a final."

And once you get to a final, anything can happen.

If my memory serves me correctly, Sugiyama (who also hits the ball rather flat, and is also rather popular -apparently HUGE, in Japan) got to the QF of Wimbledon last year, but lost to Davenport.

I remember being disappointed, thinking, if only she'd got to the semi-finals. It's the way people think, you know. No harm to Graf.

Lemonskin.
Jul 10th, 2005, 08:59 AM
"Definitely" = "not sure" .... ?

Graf is a modest girl.
But she DEFINITELY would have won the 3rd set anyway.
After all she has a 56-16 win/loss record as #1-ranked player in 3-set matches ...
Ya never know...

Coulda been #17 ;)

ashwu
Jul 10th, 2005, 09:34 AM
no rain? hehe, i do have bad memory. sorry~ don't overreact, i don't mean to say graf is a horrible player or something like that~

Wolfram Hart
Jul 10th, 2005, 09:46 AM
For crying out loud, we have 2 Graf fans in this thread, almost point blank refusing to consider that Date would have beaten Graf.

Is it so bad to speculate about a match that was around 10 years ago?

This match was a semi final right? So she had the momentum against Graf and was close to a final, and then darkness set in and she lost. Of course people are gonna speculate and click their fingers and say "Oh crap, the dainty, cute, impressive oriental player missed out on a final."

And once you get to a final, anything can happen.

If my memory serves me correctly, Sugiyama (who also hits the ball rather flat, and is also rather popular -apparently HUGE, in Japan) got to the QF of Wimbledon last year, but lost to Davenport.

I remember being disappointed, thinking, if only she'd got to the semi-finals. It's the way people think, you know. No harm to Graf.

It’s a fact and depressing at times, but the board if full of knee-jerk reactionaries.

It’s sad that a few try to undermine and undervalue the achievements of Kimiko. What Kimiko did accomplish from the culture she originated from was pretty good in my books, and in tennis standards. And for a player who was actually left handed to play right handed is an achievement within itself.
I do not read people claiming Kimiko to be a grand slam champion, or a champion period.
However I do read people praising and having enjoyed watching such a demure little lady, with a beaming smile, battle it out with many of the greats/greatest from the past decades.

Many people think she would have defeated Steffi that day, she proved she could, so why not here. The match was not stopped at the end of the second set some are stating. No, it was halted when midway through the third. When the impetuous was swinging Kimikos way. Who knows what may have happened, true it’s all conjuncture, but most people still believe that Kimiko would have won the match had it not been stopped, it‘s not as if she never defeated Steffi previously, because she did. Graf fans feel differently concerning the Wimbledon semi final, that’s their opinion and nothing wrong with it. Personally if I ever wanted a player to play for my life I would have choose Steffi, but she was not invulnerable at Wimbledon.


Kimiko retired when it’s highly possible/probable, she still had much improving and maturing as both a player and individual. Her career was not in freefall, but she retired due to personal reasons. So it was sad not to see her fulfil her potential on court, and who knows reach that elusive first slam final.

I for one miss her!

dukeblue5
Jul 10th, 2005, 10:29 AM
Do i have lost my harp? Why? Because you think those numbers means nothing?
.. wrong again. I could easily say that your words means nothing, but not the statistics, because they are there, and they are every explicit. Grass was Date´s third best surface and marginally better than clay. Numbers don´t lie. 0 tournament wins on grass don´t lie. Im not manipulating anything im bringing up the stats, so you are completly wrong.
Ok Date is a VERY good player. Not impressive.
But her carreer is not up to par with the Coetzer, Huber, Fernandez, Sukova, Tauziat types. So they are ULTRA VERY GOOD PLAYERS?
Then what Sabatini, Martinez, Novotna´s carrers are?
Then what Hingis,Venus, Henin, Mandlikova´s carrers are?
Then what Serena, Seles´s carrers are?
And finally what Graf, Navratilova, Evert, Court´s carrers are?
You really need to fix your standards. Period.

This is a tennis forum. Tennis, which includes Kimiko Date. Sorry to break it to you but there are other players out there who may not have been as great as Graf, Evert or Navratilova who deserve some kind of recognition. It doesn't matter if they weren't great. People have their own standards, they don't have to agree with yours.

So shoo, go spread your ignorance someplace else and stop making such a big deal of someone starting a thread about a good player.

Rising Sun
Jul 10th, 2005, 10:56 AM
It’s a fact and depressing at times, but the board if full of knee-jerk reactionaries.

It’s sad that a few try to undermine and undervalue the achievements of Kimiko. What Kimiko did accomplish from the culture she originated from was pretty good in my books, and in tennis standards. And for a player who was actually left handed to play right handed is an achievement within itself.
I do not read people claiming Kimiko to be a grand slam champion, or a champion period.
However I do read people praising and having enjoyed watching such a demure little lady, with a beaming smile, battle it out with many of the greats/greatest from the past decades.

Many people think she would have defeated Steffi that day, she proved she could, so why not here. The match was not stopped at the end of the second set some are stating. No, it was halted when midway through the third. When the impetuous was swinging Kimikos way. Who knows what may have happened, true it’s all conjuncture, but most people still believe that Kimiko would have won the match had it not been stopped, it‘s not as if she never defeated Steffi previously, because she did. Graf fans feel differently concerning the Wimbledon semi final, that’s their opinion and nothing wrong with it. Personally if I ever wanted a player to play for my life I would have choose Steffi, but she was not invulnerable at Wimbledon.


Kimiko retired when it’s highly possible/probable, she still had much improving and maturing as both a player and individual. Her career was not in freefall, but she retired due to personal reasons. So it was sad not to see her fulfil her potential on court, and who knows reach that elusive first slam final.

I for one miss her!
What was the score in the 3rd set when play was halted? :confused:

gorecki
Jul 10th, 2005, 11:00 AM
It’s a fact and depressing at times, but the board if full of knee-jerk reactionaries.

It’s sad that a few try to undermine and undervalue the achievements of Kimiko. What Kimiko did accomplish from the culture she originated from was pretty good in my books, and in tennis standards. And for a player who was actually left handed to play right handed is an achievement within itself.
I do not read people claiming Kimiko to be a grand slam champion, or a champion period.
However I do read people praising and having enjoyed watching such a demure little lady, with a beaming smile, battle it out with many of the greats/greatest from the past decades.

Many people think she would have defeated Steffi that day, she proved she could, so why not here. The match was not stopped at the end of the second set some are stating. No, it was halted when midway through the third. When the impetuous was swinging Kimikos way. Who knows what may have happened, true it’s all conjuncture, but most people still believe that Kimiko would have won the match had it not been stopped, it‘s not as if she never defeated Steffi previously, because she did. Graf fans feel differently concerning the Wimbledon semi final, that’s their opinion and nothing wrong with it. Personally if I ever wanted a player to play for my life I would have choose Steffi, but she was not invulnerable at Wimbledon.


Kimiko retired when it’s highly possible/probable, she still had much improving and maturing as both a player and individual. Her career was not in freefall, but she retired due to personal reasons. So it was sad not to see her fulfil her potential on court, and who knows reach that elusive first slam final.

I for one miss her!
:yeah:

Calimero377
Jul 10th, 2005, 11:30 AM
no rain? hehe, i do have bad memory. sorry~ don't overreact, i don't mean to say graf is a horrible player or something like that~


Although you don't even remember whether the match was suspended due to rain or due to bad light you are quite sure that Graf would have lost, eh?

I recognize a Graf hater when I read him ...
























;) :wavey:

Calimero377
Jul 10th, 2005, 11:46 AM
It’s a fact and depressing at times, but the board if full of knee-jerk reactionaries. ...

Many people think she would have defeated Steffi that day, she proved she could, so why not here. The match was not stopped at the end of the second set some are stating. No, it was halted when midway through the third. When the impetuous was swinging Kimikos way. Who knows what may have happened, ...

It's a fact and depressing at times, but the board is full of people ignoring or twisting the FACTS.

1) The Graf-Date match was suspended due to nightfall at 08:56 p.m. GMT.
The score at that moment was 6-2, 2-6. The 3rd set hadn't been started yet.
I hope it's ignorance, but it could be blatant lying as it is often the case here with Graf detractors.

2) Graf was 6-1 H2H against Date at that point of their careers.

3) Graf was a 6-time Wimbledon champ.

4) Date is only 22-14 (win/loss) on grass.

You may conclude from 2)-4) that Date probably would have won. Although that is an idiotic assumption considering 2)-4).
But you are not allowed to bolster your assumptions by twisting fact 1).

Sadly Graf fans are subject to those fact twisters again and again.
Must be a psychological problem. Many fans of lesser players simply WANT to escape into parallel universes where there is not all-time great Steffi Graf. Some fans deliberately lie though ...
Somehow pathetic ...

Calimero377
Jul 10th, 2005, 11:48 AM
What was the score in the 3rd set when play was halted? :confused:


0-0, 00-00 ....

ashwu
Jul 10th, 2005, 11:58 AM
actually i watched that game just hope steffi could win. because mary lost to kimiko. actually if mary lost, i always hoped steffi could win. and yes, i don't remember the detail - sorry about that, but i do remember thinking kimiko was going to win, and worried a little bit. and even if she did win, so what? that doesn't means she's a better player than steffi. and no one said that. i don't understand why you are so overreacted. "hater"? can't believe it...
i still think that match suspended more than once? i must confuse with some other game...

Calimero377
Jul 10th, 2005, 12:04 PM
actually i watched that game just hope steffi could win. because mary lost to kimiko. actually if mary lost, i always hoped steffi could win. and yes, i don't remember the detail - sorry about that, but i do remember thinking kimiko was going to win, and worried a little bit. and even if she did win, so what? that doesn't means she's a better player than steffi. and no one said that. i don't understand why you are so overreacted. "hater"? can't believe it...
i still think that match suspended more than once? i must confuse with some other game...


"Hater" is GM language for "non-fan". I adopted that word here ...

It is OK to be "a little bit worried" when Graf had to play a 3rd set. But is far-fetched to say that Graf "definitely" or "most probably" would have lost.

azinna
Jul 10th, 2005, 12:54 PM
I'm a Graf fan. My fellow fans Calimero and spencercarlos have a point. Tennis is laced with momentum swings. We all know that. We've all seen challengers win middle sets and lose the 3rd. For an assortment of reasons. I'm not sure why folks would ever say that Date definitely would have won the match.

But I also understand that my fellow fans are being picky and defensive and almost single-handedly ruining the spirit of this thread. Graf has assured her legacy as one of the greatest women to ever pick up a racquet. And accordingly, we as fans should be among the most generous on these boards. So it's really surprising to see some getting their feathers ruffled over an imaginary 3rd set against Kimiko Date. Calimero, spencercarlos, all one needs to say in this situation is that "the 3rd set would likely have been tougher for Graf and her fans if the match had continued." Correct a few details, such as rain vs darkness and whether the 3rd set had begun. Then act Graf-like and continue on with other things. If folks want to give Date a little more lovin' and adoration then please let that occur. God knows Graf has more than enough coming her way.

The Pro
Jul 10th, 2005, 01:30 PM
It's a fact and depressing at times, but the board is full of people ignoring or twisting the FACTS.

1) The Graf-Date match was suspended due to nightfall at 08:56 p.m. GMT.
The score at that moment was 6-2, 2-6. The 3rd set hadn't been started yet.
I hope it's ignorance, but it could be blatant lying as it is often the case here with Graf detractors.

2) Graf was 6-1 H2H against Date at that point of their careers.

3) Graf was a 6-time Wimbledon champ.

4) Date is only 22-14 (win/loss) on grass.

You may conclude from 2)-4) that Date probably would have won. Although that is an idiotic assumption considering 2)-4).
But you are not allowed to bolster your assumptions by twisting fact 1).

Sadly Graf fans are subject to those fact twisters again and again.
Must be a psychological problem. Many fans of lesser players simply WANT to escape into parallel universes where there is not all-time great Steffi Graf. Some fans deliberately lie though ...
Somehow pathetic ...

My God you really are :banana: :banana:

I bet you wish you'd got to Seles first, don't you?

OR DID YOU?

Calimero377
Jul 10th, 2005, 01:37 PM
I'm a Graf fan. My fellow fans Calimero and spencercarlos have a point. Tennis is laced with momentum swings. We all know that. We've all seen challengers win middle sets and lose the 3rd. For an assortment of reasons. I'm not sure why folks would ever say that Date definitely would have won the match.

But I also understand that my fellow fans are being picky and defensive and almost single-handedly ruining the spirit of this thread. Graf has assured her legacy as one of the greatest women to ever pick up a racquet. And accordingly, we as fans should be among the most generous on these boards. So it's really surprising to see some getting their feathers ruffled over an imaginary 3rd set against Kimiko Date. Calimero, spencercarlos, all one needs to say in this situation is that "the 3rd set would likely have been tougher for Graf and her fans if the match had continued." Correct a few details, such as rain vs darkness and whether the 3rd set had begun. Then act Graf-like and continue on with other things. ...

Graf was a goddess.
I'm no god though. And so I will continue to fight all Graf detractors day in day out with a rough hand.
The spirit in this thread was foul almost from the beginning. People were suggesting that Graf had luck because of the match suspension. Drivel like that will be fought from now on with no remorse whatsoever.

Graf haters beware!!!
You can run but you can't hide!!!!!!

Calimero377
Jul 10th, 2005, 01:39 PM
My God you really are :banana: :banana:

I bet you wish you'd got to Seles first, don't you?

OR DID YOU?



Seles was not the problem.

But I wish I'd got to Thust and Meissner first ....

Pengwin
Jul 10th, 2005, 01:39 PM
If my memory serves me correctly, Sugiyama (who also hits the ball rather flat, and is also rather popular -apparently HUGE, in Japan) got to the QF of Wimbledon last year, but lost to Davenport.

She was soooooo close to beating Masha in the QF but choked it away :sad:

spencercarlos
Jul 10th, 2005, 02:30 PM
For crying out loud, we have 2 Graf fans in this thread, almost point blank refusing to consider that Date would have beaten Graf.

Is it so bad to speculate about a match that was around 10 years ago?

This match was a semi final right? So she had the momentum against Graf and was close to a final, and then darkness set in and she lost. Of course people are gonna speculate and click their fingers and say "Oh crap, the dainty, cute, impressive oriental player missed out on a final."

And once you get to a final, anything can happen.

If my memory serves me correctly, Sugiyama (who also hits the ball rather flat, and is also rather popular -apparently HUGE, in Japan) got to the QF of Wimbledon last year, but lost to Davenport.

I remember being disappointed, thinking, if only she'd got to the semi-finals. It's the way people think, you know. No harm to Graf.
Me a Graf fan?.. hmmm. I liked her but im not a HUGE fan ala Calimero.
Yeah you can especulate anything you want whatever. But...
If its fair to say Date had the momentum going into the third set, it´s ridiculous to say that Graf was already out of the match and beaten. If this "kind of theory" it´s true, in matches the player who wins the second set wins the match? :confused: Sorry man the matches and sets are there to be played and it was indeed played with a final result like it or not.
You are talking about a then 19 time Grand Slam Champion playing against someone who never got to a grand slam final, Date was playing her best tennis, yet delay because of darkness or not Graf still won the match.

spencercarlos
Jul 10th, 2005, 03:34 PM
It’s a fact and depressing at times, but the board if full of knee-jerk reactionaries.

It’s sad that a few try to undermine and undervalue the achievements of Kimiko. What Kimiko did accomplish from the culture she originated from was pretty good in my books, and in tennis standards. And for a player who was actually left handed to play right handed is an achievement within itself.
I do not read people claiming Kimiko to be a grand slam champion, or a champion period.
However I do read people praising and having enjoyed watching such a demure little lady, with a beaming smile, battle it out with many of the greats/greatest from the past decades.

Many people think she would have defeated Steffi that day, she proved she could, so why not here. The match was not stopped at the end of the second set some are stating. No, it was halted when midway through the third. When the impetuous was swinging Kimikos way. Who knows what may have happened, true it’s all conjuncture, but most people still believe that Kimiko would have won the match had it not been stopped, it‘s not as if she never defeated Steffi previously, because she did. Graf fans feel differently concerning the Wimbledon semi final, that’s their opinion and nothing wrong with it. Personally if I ever wanted a player to play for my life I would have choose Steffi, but she was not invulnerable at Wimbledon.


Kimiko retired when it’s highly possible/probable, she still had much improving and maturing as both a player and individual. Her career was not in freefall, but she retired due to personal reasons. So it was sad not to see her fulfil her potential on court, and who knows reach that elusive first slam final.

I for one miss her!
What?
Get facts straight the match started the next day 0-0 in the third set. So it was stopped at the end of the second set. :wavey:
I agree pretty much with the other things you said except the first part.

spencercarlos
Jul 10th, 2005, 03:41 PM
This is a tennis forum. Tennis, which includes Kimiko Date. Sorry to break it to you but there are other players out there who may not have been as great as Graf, Evert or Navratilova who deserve some kind of recognition. It doesn't matter if they weren't great. People have their own standards, they don't have to agree with yours.

So shoo, go spread your ignorance someplace else and stop making such a big deal of someone starting a thread about a good player.
Ignorance? why?
Because, supported with the fact that a third set was being played between the 19 time Grand Slam champion Steffi Graf and Kimiko Date on Graf´s best surface, im against the ones who claim that Date was the winner of that third set if played that day? Who knows, in my book they were at 1 set all, it was not like Date was 6-1 3-0 and play was stopped. She was as close as winning as she was to win one entire set, deal with that. Anyway it was a nice effort from Kimiko. :drool:
Because i proved with stats that Date´s best surface WAS NOT GRASS? as another poster said? :tape:
Or because in my opinion Date had a good carreer and not a great/impressive one like others try to show? :tape:
I would be an ignorant if i would let some comments like that pass. Unsupported comments in fact. I came up with real arguments to support what im saying.

pcrtennis
Jul 10th, 2005, 08:36 PM
Ignorance? why?
Because, supported with the fact that a third set was being played between the 19 time Grand Slam champion Steffi Graf and Kimiko Date on Graf´s best surface, im against the ones who claim that Date was the winner of that third set if played that day? Who knows, in my book they were at 1 set all, it was not like Date was 6-1 3-0 and play was stopped. She was as close as winning as she was to win one entire set, deal with that. Anyway it was a nice effort from Kimiko. :drool:
Because i proved with stats that Date´s best surface WAS NOT GRASS? as another poster said? :tape:
Or because in my opinion Date had a good carreer and not a great/impressive one like others try to show? :tape:
I would be an ignorant if i would let some comments like that pass. Unsupported comments in fact. I came up with real arguments to support what im saying.


You're just a moron and now you've confused yourself and gotten lost in all of your Graf obsessing, bashing other players attitude.

Just let people appreciate Kimiko's great career, there's no need to try to criticize Kimiko because other people like her a lot.

That was your original beef, though you've seemed to forget it.

No one's saying she was better than Graf and this thread never had anything to do with Graf in the first place so go find a Graf appreciation thread and talk there...

pcrtennis
Jul 10th, 2005, 08:38 PM
this Thread Isn't About The Graf-date Wimbledon Semifinal!

That's Just What Spencercarlos Started Crying About For No Good Reason! Let It Go!!!!

pcrtennis
Jul 10th, 2005, 08:41 PM
Graf was a goddess.
I'm no god though. And so I will continue to fight all Graf detractors day in day out with a rough hand.
The spirit in this thread was foul almost from the beginning. People were suggesting that Graf had luck because of the match suspension. Drivel like that will be fought from now on with no remorse whatsoever.

Graf haters beware!!!
You can run but you can't hide!!!!!!


Tell me where in this K I M I K O D A T E T H R E A D that Graf was ever bashed BEFORE GRaf fans came in and started whinning about someone mentioning Kimiko's great preformance in Fed Cup and Wimbledon 1996. No one said Graf was bad, no one said Date was better...no one was bashing Graf. I respect Graf A TON, so there''s no need to be crying fowl over nothing...

Kart
Jul 10th, 2005, 08:47 PM
Kimiko was a fun player to watch and I really liked her.

She pushed Steffi in that Wimbledon semi but that's not all to define a career by because she played in a lot of other exciting matches like the Lipton semi 1995 :explode:. I think she pretty much achieved all she was going to with her career - she was never going to dominate womens' tennis but made the most of her abilities.

She retired whilst still at a very high ranking - lots of speculation why but really people make their own life decisions that we probably know little about in reality.

Calimero377
Jul 10th, 2005, 10:42 PM
this Thread Isn't About The Graf-date Wimbledon Semifinal!

That's Just What Spencercarlos Started Crying About For No Good Reason! Let It Go!!!!


Date's greatest achievements were

1) a 12-10 in 3rd FC win against .... Graf
2) a 3-set semi Wimbledon loss against .... Graf.

Calimero377
Jul 10th, 2005, 10:45 PM
Tell me where in this K I M I K O D A T E T H R E A D that Graf was ever bashed BEFORE GRaf fans came in and started whinning about someone mentioning Kimiko's great preformance in Fed Cup and Wimbledon 1996. No one said Graf was bad, no one said Date was better...no one was bashing Graf. I respect Graf A TON, so there''s no need to be crying fowl over nothing...


Some Dumbos suggested that Date most certainly would have won the 3rd set against Graf in the Wimby 96 semi match if it weren't for the match suspension due to "rain" or whatever.

Typical anti-Graf "woulda-coulda" drivel that is treated accordingly by neutral tennis fan like me.

dukeblue5
Jul 10th, 2005, 10:51 PM
Ignorance? why?
Because, supported with the fact that a third set was being played between the 19 time Grand Slam champion Steffi Graf and Kimiko Date on Graf´s best surface, im against the ones who claim that Date was the winner of that third set if played that day? Who knows, in my book they were at 1 set all, it was not like Date was 6-1 3-0 and play was stopped. She was as close as winning as she was to win one entire set, deal with that. Anyway it was a nice effort from Kimiko. :drool:
Because i proved with stats that Date´s best surface WAS NOT GRASS? as another poster said? :tape:
Or because in my opinion Date had a good carreer and not a great/impressive one like others try to show? :tape:
I would be an ignorant if i would let some comments like that pass. Unsupported comments in fact. I came up with real arguments to support what im saying.

This thread wasn't started to analyze her Wimbeldon SF against Graf. It was started to appreciate a good player. I am a Graf fan myself but I can join in to celebrate the careers of other players, instead of trying to belittle achievements which, while not spectacular, are still worth mentioning.

Your ignorance runs with your blind obsession of only one person's achievements.

spencercarlos
Jul 10th, 2005, 11:58 PM
This thread wasn't started to analyze her Wimbeldon SF against Graf. It was started to appreciate a good player. I am a Graf fan myself but I can join in to celebrate the careers of other players, instead of trying to belittle achievements which, while not spectacular, are still worth mentioning.

Your ignorance runs with your blind obsession of only one person's achievements.
I agree with the first part, just that many people mentioned how "close" she was from winning that semfinal against Graf.. yeah as close as a set to win. But..
BTW explain me why am i ignorant? Because i explained with facts and statistics how wrong people`s opinions were towards Date.? :lol:
And no im not an obsessed with Graf at all. LOL
I love Sabatini, not Graf.

spencercarlos
Jul 11th, 2005, 12:00 AM
Some Dumbos suggested that Date most certainly would have won the 3rd set against Graf in the Wimby 96 semi match if it weren't for the match suspension due to "rain" or whatever.

Typical anti-Graf "woulda-coulda" drivel that is treated accordingly by neutral tennis fan like me.
One of the few times that i can agree with Calimero :p

pcrtennis
Jul 11th, 2005, 04:06 AM
I just think you all got too wound up about perfectly valid opnions regarding that match between Graf and Date. The idea that Kimiko could have won that match without the interruption is perfectly logical...so stop acting like people are attacking Graf, she was beatable you know.......

spencercarlos
Jul 11th, 2005, 04:26 AM
I just think you all got too wound up about perfectly valid opnions regarding that match between Graf and Date. The idea that Kimiko could have won that match without the interruption is perfectly logical...so stop acting like people are attacking Graf, she was beatable you know.......
Yeah very beatable by the likes of Date, especially at Grand Slam tournaments. :rolleyes:

Robbie.
Jul 11th, 2005, 04:44 AM
Yeah very beatable by the likes of Date, especially at Grand Slam tournaments. :rolleyes:

The chances are that Steffi would have ended up winning even if they played on.

Great players lose sets all the time and still win. Especially Steffi as she would really play badly for a few games sometimes :shrug:

The odds were still in Steffi's favour. If Kimiko was leading 5-2 in the last set or something that would be a different matter.

spencercarlos
Jul 11th, 2005, 04:49 AM
The chances are that Steffi would have ended up winning even if they played on.

Great players lose sets all the time and still win. Especially Steffi as she would really play badly for a few games sometimes :shrug:

The odds were still in Steffi's favour. If Kimiko was leading 5-2 in the last set or something that would be a different matter.
Exactly, there was a long way still to go. A whole set to be played.
Steffi was beatable, yes she was not invincible, and thanks god then she would have had more than 22 slams wins if being a little more unbeatable? :p

pcrtennis
Jul 11th, 2005, 05:44 AM
Exactly, there was a long way still to go. A whole set to be played.
Steffi was beatable, yes she was not invincible, and thanks god then she would have had more than 22 slams wins if being a little more unbeatable? :p


This thread was never about that match it was about Kimiko Date and then you come in and turn the conversation on that match and Graf. Some people felt Kimiko could have won it, some don't. DOn't make such a fricken big deal out of it.....

Oh yes she could have won more than 22 slams, but some more players would have needed to be stabbed.... :rolleyes:

BACK TO KIMIKO DATE PLEASE AND HER CAREER!!!

Wolfram Hart
Jul 11th, 2005, 07:29 PM
What was the score in the 3rd set when play was halted? :confused:

It was 3-3 with Graf serving.

They began the very next day, Graf served 4-3. Kimiko dropped serve 5-3 Steffi, Steffi held for to wrap up the match.

Libertango
Jul 11th, 2005, 08:20 PM
Wolfrom Hart....didn't they stop play right after Kimiko won the 2nd, so they played the whole 3rd set on the Friday?

Anyway we can argue forever on that match....who knows what might have happened?!?! Fact is they had to stop for light, and Steffi came back to win. Either way it was a fantastic match, especially that 2nd set, beautifully played by both players.

Say whatever you like about Kimiko, there's one thing you can't deny....her influence in Japan (and even Asia) was enormous, and still lasts to this day. People still know and speak of Kimiko. She made the sport much more popular here, her effect has gone on long after her retirement. That's an awesome achievement in itself. :worship: :hearts:

Veritas
Jul 12th, 2005, 07:26 AM
It's a pity Kimiko never really had the motivation to keep pushing herself towards a better tennis career. Like someone mentioned before, it really was her lack of interest that stopped her career, not the "new tennis ranking system", since she did mention herself that she just doesn't find it worthwhile to travel and play all year long.

tommystar
Jul 12th, 2005, 10:46 AM
That semifinal day in 1996 had tons of rain delays, (as that whole week) 2 mens quarter was scheduled before the women's semis, and that 2 matches had a lot of rain delays, plus the Arantxa vs. McGrath match, and after that the Graf vs. Date, which didn't have rain delay...

Wolfram Hart
Jul 12th, 2005, 08:27 PM
Wolfrom Hart....didn't they stop play right after Kimiko won the 2nd, so they played the whole 3rd set on the Friday?
Anyway we can argue forever on that match....who knows what might have happened?!?! Fact is they had to stop for light, and Steffi came back to win. Either way it was a fantastic match, especially that 2nd set, beautifully played by both players.

Say whatever you like about Kimiko, there's one thing you can't deny....her influence in Japan (and even Asia) was enormous, and still lasts to this day. People still know and speak of Kimiko. She made the sport much more popular here, her effect has gone on long after her retirement. That's an awesome achievement in itself. :worship: :hearts:

You’re very mistaken. The match was halted during the third set when the score line was 3-3.During the start of the seventh game a person in the crowd shouted out to try and distract Kimiko. Just as Kimiko was about to serve a German man latter identified as Peter Graf shouted out hängetitten
several times. He was forcibly removed by other people in the crowd and handed over to the police.

Calimero377
Jul 12th, 2005, 08:32 PM
You’re very mistaken. The match was halted during the third set when the score line was 3-3.During the start of the seventh game a person in the crowd shouted out to try and distract Kimiko. Just as Kimiko was about to serve a German man latter identified as Peter Graf shouted out hängetitten
several times. He was forcibly removed by other people in the crowd and handed over to the police.


Why this?
IIRC, Serena didn't play .....

Wolfram Hart
Jul 12th, 2005, 08:41 PM
Why this?
IIRC, Serena didn't play .....

Why do you ask such stupid questions,and make ridiculous points? We all know Serena played up until the quarter final when she went into labour she was rushed to hospital where she gave birth to a beautiful baby daughter named Ashaki.