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Andy T
Jul 8th, 2005, 05:48 PM
From her column in "the Guardian" Monday July 4, 2005

.......The only consolation for Roddick and the rest is that the pecking order can change very suddenly in tennis. Venus Williams proved that with Saturday's stunning victory. What makes Venus's achievement all the more impressive is that it's so hard to get out of the kind of slump she was in. It's much easier to doubt yourself than it is to believe that you can do it and it only takes one person to ask you about the fact that you are not playing well and to put the negative thoughts in your head. Venus faced up to that and found a way to overcome the negativity.

Before this Wimbledon it was obvious that Venus didn't have much confidence and she also wasn't hitting the ball as hard or moving as well. Then, suddenly, in the second week, she turned into the player she was four years ago, and if she can back this performance, she is a contender for the No1 ranking.

That said I don't think that Venus is going to go from here and dominate the women's game because I don't see anybody doing that this year as it's such a wide open race for year-end No1. It's a truly fascinating time for women's tennis with players of different styles, different ages, and different personalities all competing. It could be Maria Sharapova, Lindsay Davenport, Justine Henin-Hardenne, Kim Clijsters, Venus Williams or, if she can get herself fit again, Serena Williams.

I wrote in this column during the first week of the Championships that it was unwise to write off the Williams sisters. I didn't think Serena had a chance to win but after seeing how Venus handled Jill Craybas, who had knocked Serena out, I think she was a different person. It was as if the moment Venus knew she wasn't going to have to face Serena, a big weight was lifted off her.

There are always opponents that you have a hang-up about and when they lose it gives you a big lift. As soon as Venus didn't have to worry about her sister any more, she could just play ball.

As much as Venus winning is great for the game, I do feel a great deal of empathy for Lindsay Davenport. I never lost a final being up a match-point so I can only imagine how devastating this loss is. You just want that moment back so you can do things differently.

The fairytale for Davenport now is to put it behind her and try to win the US Open. If she does that I would make a bet she will retire, just as I'm sure she'd have called it a day if she had won Wimbledon, because everybody wants to ride off into the sunset as a champion. I'm sure she regrets ever saying that she was going to retire because after a while it becomes a distraction to keep being asked about it. I'm certainly sorry that I ever said, in both 1994 and last year, that I was playing my last season because it means that, like Davenport, I get asked about it after every match I play........................

Cybelle Darkholme
Jul 8th, 2005, 06:05 PM
nice article.

Club_Fed
Jul 8th, 2005, 06:09 PM
great piece of writing Martin.

La Reine
Jul 8th, 2005, 07:44 PM
Wow...very well-balanced, well-written article.

DA FOREHAND
Jul 8th, 2005, 07:49 PM
"I wrote in this column during the first week of the Championships that it was unwise to write off the Williams sisters. I didn't think Serena had a chance to win but after seeing how Venus handled Jill Craybas, who had knocked Serena out, I think she was a different person. It was as if the moment Venus knew she wasn't going to have to face Serena, a big weight was lifted off her.

There are always opponents that you have a hang-up about and when they lose it gives you a big lift. As soon as Venus didn't have to worry about her sister any more, she could just play ball.
"


Hmmmm I wonder who that player was for Martina?......

quick question....When are you gonna ride off into the sunset?

servenrichie
Jul 8th, 2005, 09:03 PM
From her column in "the Guardian" Monday July 4, 2005

I never lost a final being up a match-point so I can only imagine how devastating this loss is. You just want that moment back so you can do things differently.

.......

What are we supposed to do with this piece of information? To make Lindsay feel better?:o

faboozadoo15
Jul 8th, 2005, 09:42 PM
Hmmmm I wonder who that player was for Martina?......

quick question....When are you gonna ride off into the sunset?
A) who knows? it was certainly never one person for too long. she trailed

goolagong-cawley head to head in slams after the first 2 times they played, and eventually martina paid her back twice in three set battles before their head to head came to an end. it's reasonable to say she would feel better after that lady was gone.

seles is navratilova's only real rival she trails in head to head in slams, 2-0. but the fact that monica beat her both at wimbledon and the us open stood to reason that IF monica ever lost early in a major (she didn't), martina would feel A LOT better about her chances.

she led graf narrowly 5-4 in majors and even scored wins over steffi in the twillight of her playing career.

in the beef of martina's career, it would obviously be chris evert whose losses in majors would make martina feel better about her game, but even there martina led 14-8 in majors. austin was dangerous too (2-2).

and B) whenever she feels like it.

RVD
Jul 8th, 2005, 11:34 PM
From her column in "the Guardian" Monday July 4, 2005

.......The only consolation for Roddick and the rest is that the pecking order can change very suddenly in tennis. Venus Williams proved that with Saturday's stunning victory. What makes Venus's achievement all the more impressive is that it's so hard to get out of the kind of slump she was in. It's much easier to doubt yourself than it is to believe that you can do it and it only takes one person to ask you about the fact that you are not playing well and to put the negative thoughts in your head. Venus faced up to that and found a way to overcome the negativity. Excuse me but wasn't Martina the very one feeding Venus negativity?!?!? If she knew this, why did she herself do it?!

Before this Wimbledon it was obvious that Venus didn't have much confidence and she also wasn't hitting the ball as hard or moving as well. Then, suddenly, in the second week, she turned into the player she was four years ago, and if she can back this performance, she is a contender for the No1 ranking. Strongly disagree! If she actually followed the sisters' game, then she'd know that Venus gained a ton of confidence around the time of this year's NASDAQ100, and that she just grew from that meeting with Serena. So I guess you have to actually win a slam to demonstate confidence?
And what of Vee's title prior to the French? :shrug: Wasn't that a demonstration of confidence? If I recall, she never dropped a single set throughout that entire tourney. :confused:

That said I don't think that Venus is going to go from here and dominate the women's game because I don't see anybody doing that this year as it's such a wide open race for year-end No1. It's a truly fascinating time for women's tennis with players of different styles, different ages, and different personalities all competing. It could be Maria Sharapova, Lindsay Davenport, Justine Henin-Hardenne, Kim Clijsters, Venus Williams or, if she can get herself fit again, Serena Williams. Fair enough, but neither did she peg Venus to WIN any slams this year, let alone the prestigious Wimbledon title. She can find solice in the fact that she didn't completely eliminate the possibility. :yeah:

I wrote in this column during the first week of the Championships that it was unwise to write off the Williams sisters. I didn't think Serena had a chance to win but after seeing how Venus handled Jill Craybas, who had knocked Serena out, I think she was a different person. It was as if the moment Venus knew she wasn't going to have to face Serena, a big weight was lifted off her. Martina should have honestly stopped after the first sentence here, because I could accept that as her opinion, not fact. But to go on to suggest that Serena was what prevented Venus from being confident, is to again suggest that Venus wasn't confidant when she defeated Serena at NASDAQ this year. Damn! What's up with this woman? Alzheimer?

There are always opponents that you have a hang-up about and when they lose it gives you a big lift. As soon as Venus didn't have to worry about her sister any more, she could just play ball. See above.

As much as Venus winning is great for the game, I do feel a great deal of empathy for Lindsay Davenport. I never lost a final being up a match-point so I can only imagine how devastating this loss is. You just want that moment back so you can do things differently. I agree. i feel for Lindsay too. :sad: She was on a great roll at Wimbledon. And in fact, for most of the early part of the season. And to lose like that... :sad: :sad:

The fairytale for Davenport now is to put it behind her and try to win the US Open. If she does that I would make a bet she will retire, just as I'm sure she'd have called it a day if she had won Wimbledon, because everybody wants to ride off into the sunset as a champion. I'm sure she regrets ever saying that she was going to retire because after a while it becomes a distraction to keep being asked about it. I'm certainly sorry that I ever said, in both 1994 and last year, that I was playing my last season because it means that, like Davenport, I get asked about it after every match I play........................Agreed. Her, I can see where Martina can speak from her own experience. Still, I noticed that she COMPLETELY avoided mentioning Vee's and Rena's outside interests.

Oh well, at least she's not tearing the sisters down like she normally does. It's a step in the right direction.

icequeen
Jul 8th, 2005, 11:42 PM
Excuse me but wasn't Martina the very one feeding Venus negativity?!?!? If she knew this, why did she herself do it?!

Strongly disagree! If she actually followed the sisters' game, then she'd know that Venus gained a ton of confidence around the time of this year's NASDAQ100, and that she just grew from that meeting with Serena. So I guess you have to actually win a slam to demonstate confidence?
And what of Vee's title prior to the French? :shrug: Wasn't that a demonstration of confidence? If I recall, she never dropped a single set throughout that entire tourney. :confused:

Fair enough, but neither did she peg Venus to WIN any slams this year, let alone the prestigious Wimbledon title. She can find solice in the fact that she didn't completely eliminate the possibility. :yeah:

Martina should have honestly stopped after the first sentence here, because I could accept that as her opinion, not fact. But to go on to suggest that Serena was what prevented Venus from being confident, is to again suggest that Venus wasn't confidant when she defeated Serena at NASDAQ this year. Damn! What's up with this woman? Alzheimer?

See above.

I agree. i feel for Lindsay too. :sad: She was on a great roll at Wimbledon. And in fact, for most of the early part of the season. And to lose like that... :sad: :sad:

Agreed. Her, I can see where Martina can speak from her own experience. Still, I noticed that she COMPLETELY avoided mentioning Vee's and Rena's outside interests.

Oh well, at least she's not tearing the sisters down like she normally does. It's a step in the right direction.

A step in the right direction which will not last for long.

Rocketta
Jul 9th, 2005, 12:11 AM
decent article...

only two gripes....

1. That's :bs: about Serena being in the way of Venus' confidence and that once Serena lost Vee was free to play well now. Um, was Serena at the French? If all it took was Serena not being in the way what happened there? :confused:

2. She didn't need to mention that she never lost a championship match after having a championship point. I mean what was she trying to convey? :shrug:

spokenword73
Jul 9th, 2005, 12:37 AM
Her usual digs at the Williams sisters. :rolleyes: Compliment them, then throw them under the bus. What a hater.

I still remember how she said "Richard Williams would have never danced at my loss" the way he did when Vee beat Lindsay at the USO. Like, what was she going to do if he did?

Denise4925
Jul 9th, 2005, 01:16 AM
The article was somewhat positive in my opinion. But, as Ree pointed out, if she felt Vee could lose confidence without all the negativity, why did she contribute? :confused: I also think it's :bs: that if Serena had not been knocked out she would have been a distraction to Vee's eventual win. She would have just beat Rena, as she did at the Nasdaq. Lastly and most importantly, why wouldn't Rena be able to get herself fit? :retard:

DA FOREHAND
Jul 10th, 2005, 06:00 PM
What are we supposed to do with this piece of information? To make Lindsay feel better?:o
It's not about Lindsay....don't you get it...it's always about Martina, perhaps if she'd gotten the endorsements she felt entitled to during her career she wouldn't be interjecting herself into everything.

DA FOREHAND
Jul 10th, 2005, 06:04 PM
Her usual digs at the Williams sisters. :rolleyes: Compliment them, then throw them under the bus. What a hater.

I still remember how she said "Richard Williams would have never danced at my loss" the way he did when Vee beat Lindsay at the USO. Like, what was she going to do if he did?
She said on the air that she'd smack him....And he wasn't dancing to anyone's loss he was dancing to Venus' win...Haters always wanna make it about them.

DA FOREHAND
Jul 10th, 2005, 06:06 PM
A) who knows? it was certainly never one person for too long. she trailed

goolagong-cawley head to head in slams after the first 2 times they played, and eventually martina paid her back twice in three set battles before their head to head came to an end. it's reasonable to say she would feel better after that lady was gone.

seles is navratilova's only real rival she trails in head to head in slams, 2-0. but the fact that monica beat her both at wimbledon and the us open stood to reason that IF monica ever lost early in a major (she didn't), martina would feel A LOT better about her chances.

she led graf narrowly 5-4 in majors and even scored wins over steffi in the twillight of her playing career.

in the beef of martina's career, it would obviously be chris evert whose losses in majors would make martina feel better about her game, but even there martina led 14-8 in majors. austin was dangerous too (2-2).

and B) whenever she feels like it.


All of what you say may or may not be true, but BJK, and Mary Carillo, have stated that Martina def. tailored her schedule to avoid Steffi Graf.

Paneru
Jul 10th, 2005, 06:08 PM
Her usual digs at the Williams sisters. :rolleyes: Compliment them, then throw them under the bus. What a hater.

I still remember how she said "Richard Williams would have never danced at my loss" the way he did when Vee beat Lindsay at the USO. Like, what was she going to do if he did?

Not a damn thing but stand their mutter
some things to herself and be bitter.

Richard was dancing cause his daughter won and IMO
just sticking it to the tennis establishment who called
him crazy. :lol:

1jackson2001
Jul 11th, 2005, 06:42 AM
I never lost a final being up a match-point so I can only imagine how devastating this loss is.

Uh, you lost the AO 2002 final while having FOUR matchpoints. :retard:

Must be selective memory.:angel:

StarDuvallGrant
Jul 11th, 2005, 07:07 AM
Uh, you lost the AO 2002 final while having FOUR matchpoints. :retard:

Must be selective memory.:angel:

The speaker isn't Hingis.

1jackson2001
Jul 11th, 2005, 07:17 AM
The speaker isn't Hingis.

Oh :o
*retreats to shelter*

Fair mistake I should say, considering how many Hingis threads have been going around lately.:p

tennislover
Jul 11th, 2005, 07:23 AM
great as usual..... :worship:

Rtael
Jul 11th, 2005, 07:24 AM
The article was somewhat positive in my opinion. But, as Ree pointed out, if she felt Vee could lose confidence without all the negativity, why did she contribute? :confused: I also think it's :bs: that if Serena had not been knocked out she would have been a distraction to Vee's eventual win. She would have just beat Rena, as she did at the Nasdaq. Lastly and most importantly, why wouldn't Rena be able to get herself fit? :retard:

Because she's a sports writer and commentator, you stupid twit. It's her job to make objective comments and analysis. God, what a stupid fucking question.

Rtael
Jul 11th, 2005, 07:25 AM
decent article...

only two gripes....

1. That's :bs: about Serena being in the way of Venus' confidence and that once Serena lost Vee was free to play well now. Um, was Serena at the French? If all it took was Serena not being in the way what happened there? :confused:

2. She didn't need to mention that she never lost a championship match after having a championship point. I mean what was she trying to convey? :shrug:

1. It was clay. Duh.

2. 'Cause it's true and she likes to toot her own. You're certainly not gonna' do it for her, so why not?

VeeDaQueen
Jul 11th, 2005, 07:25 AM
I think Lindsay won't retire until she wins a slam... even if it means playing until 2007. Same thing with Martina. Everyone notices that she is going to play until she breaks the Wimbledon record.

Andy T
Jul 11th, 2005, 09:39 AM
All of what you say may or may not be true, but BJK, and Mary Carillo, have stated that Martina def. tailored her schedule to avoid Steffi Graf.

Have either BJK or Carillo produced any evidence to support that claim, Da Forehand?

Denise4925
Jul 11th, 2005, 05:30 PM
Because she's a sports writer and commentator, you stupid twit. It's her job to make objective comments and analysis. God, what a stupid fucking question.
:retard: She's the one who brought up the fact that the comments were negative. Don't try and raise yourself above the fray when you were apart of it.

You must be the biggest idiot of them all if you think that when it comes to comments and sports analysis, negativity equals objectivity. Good God!!! :rolleyes:

Jasmin
Jul 11th, 2005, 05:39 PM
1. That's about Serena being in the way of Venus' confidence and that once Serena lost Vee was free to play well now. Um, was Serena at the French? If all it took was Serena not being in the way what happened there?

Exactly. Venus also beat Serena in another competition and then went on to lose the next match. For those reason I do not believe this to be true.

zuluagafan
Jul 11th, 2005, 06:03 PM
nice article

DA FOREHAND
Jul 11th, 2005, 06:09 PM
Have either BJK or Carillo produced any evidence to support that claim, Da Forehand?


I'll get them to fax that right over....As far as BJK, is concerned she was an advisor and close friend of Martina's, and she related conversations they had about Steffi. She said on air that she thought Martina spent too much time concerned w/Steffi.

Andy T
Jul 11th, 2005, 06:18 PM
I'll get them to fax that right over.....

Thanks - 'cos it seems a wild accusation for them to make if they didn't back it up with cool hard facts. ;-)


As far as BJK, is concerned she was an advisor and close friend of Martina's, and she related conversations they had about Steffi. She said on air that she thought Martina spent too much time concerned w/Steffi.

I also think Martina was too obsessed with Steffi during the period 87-89 because Steffi was the person who stood in the way of a 9th Wimbly and the number one ranking, which Martina found it really tough to let go of. Going from that to saying she avoided her is a BIG jump though and the evidence about their schedules in that period suggests that it is not true.

After the 1990 season, at the top it was Steffi & Monica rather than Steffi & Martina (who was 34 that year) and various factors affecting either Steffi or Martina (plus changes in the tour calendar) altered the equation.

Rtael
Jul 11th, 2005, 07:32 PM
:retard: She's the one who brought up the fact that the comments were negative. Don't try and raise yourself above the fray when you were apart of it.

You must be the biggest idiot of them all if you think that when it comes to comments and sports analysis, negativity equals objectivity. Good God!!! :rolleyes:


She said other people's negative comments could put doubts in Venus' head, however, what is she supposed to say in her articles? That Venus will win everything for the rest of the year and will never lose a match? I don't get what your fucking deal is. Just because she predicts that someone won't win a certain event or whatever doesn't mean she's being "negative" towards that person. Get a grip. Your losing your grip on reality, dear.

Denise4925
Jul 11th, 2005, 07:42 PM
She said other people's negative comments could put doubts in Venus' head, however, what is she supposed to say in her articles? That Venus will win everything for the rest of the year and will never lose a match? I don't get what your fucking deal is. Just because she predicts that someone won't win a certain event or whatever doesn't mean she's being "negative" towards that person. Get a grip. Your losing your grip on reality, dear.
Obviously you fail to realize that she was part of the group making negative comments. It was not about one certain event, it was overall. What is she supposed to say, well maybe take a long hard look at Venus' work as a real tennis analyst and see the progression and comment on it. That would work for a start. No one is asking or expecting anyone to have predicted Venus' win, but by the same token, don't jump on the bandwagon, looking down on others for doing the very same thing you did yourself. What the hell was Venus' supposed to do, let the negativity get into her head? I don't get what your fucking deal is. Just because I have a negative opinion of Martina's self-agrandizing comments in this article, doesn't mean that I've lost my grip on the reality. I'd say on the contrary, you might want to check your grip. :rolleyes:

Philbo
Jul 12th, 2005, 12:39 AM
All of what you say may or may not be true, but BJK, and Mary Carillo, have stated that Martina def. tailored her schedule to avoid Steffi Graf.

What a load of crap this is.. YOu are confusing BJK and Carillo with Calimero.. Andy T blasted this bullsit, proGraf theory to the water months ago where he compared Martina's schedule from 1987 onward to prevously.. the only real change was that Martina stopped playing the French to allow more preparation time for wimbledon as she wanted the 9th title there..

Show quotes and back up your claims or shut the hell up with your bullshit.

Philbo
Jul 12th, 2005, 12:41 AM
Williams Fans - I do have to say that for all your bitching and moaning about 'negative comments' being written about the sisters, I mean what do you expect?

They were dominating the game 2 years ago, and these days were losing to the likes of Molik, Karatancheva, and now Serena loses to Jill Craybas.. I mean come on, any champion who has slipped down the pecking order to be losing to players mentioned above is gonna come under some negative press..

I wish Martina's article was more positive, so Im not defending her.. IM just telling you all that you should expect some negative press when your faves are playing like shadows of their former selves..

Dawn Marie
Jul 12th, 2005, 12:57 AM
Philbo, I know we do expect negative press because from day one that is all we've heard. Where Martina is concerned I find her negative where Venus and Serena are involved. Infact I think she should cut out all the V@S drivel and start speaking about them in positive terms. They have done alot for tennis as well as she. Yet Martina treats them just like she was treated for being gay. She holds them both to a different standard and this is why I dislike her hypocritical butt. I would love for V@S (V@S) to fall in rank and once just once have her say some postitive comments. Not jump on a fake ass semi- positive bandwagon.

Philbo
Jul 12th, 2005, 11:58 AM
Philbo, I know we do expect negative press because from day one that is all we've heard. Where Martina is concerned I find her negative where Venus and Serena are involved. Infact I think she should cut out all the V@S drivel and start speaking about them in positive terms. They have done alot for tennis as well as she. Yet Martina treats them just like she was treated for being gay. She holds them both to a different standard and this is why I dislike her hypocritical butt. I would love for V@S to fall in rank and once just once have her say some postitive comments. Not jump on a fake ass semi- positive bandwagon.

Look i agree dawn, Im getting tired of Martina's negativity around the sisters..and I also agree there are similarities between how V + S are written about (when it comes to their games only being based on athleticism, not on brains and thinking on court etc) and how Martina's accomplishments were downgraded due to her fitness etc.. there is a definite undercurrent which reminds me of racism/homophobia.. Im surprised Martina has never spotted this as well..

But my comments werent defending Martina per say, I was talking more generally that when the sisters results have slipped from what they once were, that questions will be asked about their commitment to tennis etc etc..

The best thing for them to do is exactly what Venus did at WImbledon - let the racquet do the talking..

icequeen
Jul 12th, 2005, 12:09 PM
Look i agree dawn, Im getting tired of Martina's negativity around the sisters..and I also agree there are similarities between how V + S are written about (when it comes to their games only being based on athleticism, not on brains and thinking on court etc) and how Martina's accomplishments were downgraded due to her fitness etc.. there is a definite undercurrent which reminds me of racism/homophobia.. Im surprised Martina has never spotted this as well..

But my comments werent defending Martina per say, I was talking more generally that when the sisters results have slipped from what they once were, that questions will be asked about their commitment to tennis etc etc..

The best thing for them to do is exactly what Venus did at WImbledon - let the racquet do the talking..

Even when their racquet does the talking they are still critized. They have no brains when they are on the tennis court but yet they have more GS than any other players who are suppose to have all the brains on the court....go figure. Why should V&S always have to keep proving themselves to people but everyone else slides by. You never hear them dogging Lindsay, Kim, Jen, and some of the other players....why always harp on the the sisters what the hell have those girls done to them?

Andy T
Jul 12th, 2005, 12:44 PM
For right or wrong (and maybe their father has some responsibility in this), I think V & S are hyped so much by the media that if they fall short of the highest standards, they become the subject of criticism.

Their off-court activities are hyped so much that everyone now has the impression that they are not fully committed to tennis. Whether or not this is true, it is important to note that the off-court activities of the other players (Lindsay, Kim, Justine, etc) don't get anywhere near the same level of publicity even though, presumably, they also have interests outside the game.

raquel
Jul 12th, 2005, 07:02 PM
When Martina mentioned that she had never lost a Championship final after holding a match point it wasn't to toot her own horn or to brag, it was to give her opinion on how it would affect Lindsay and how Lindsay would feel after the final. Martina is hired to write that column to talk from her experiences on what's going on and all she is saying is she's never lost a Championship final from match point up, so can't say exactly what Lindsay's thinking because she's never been there. Let's face it, if Martina really wanted to use that column purely as a place to brag about herself she's got a whole load of better things to brag about than that, especially at Wimbledon.

Pureracket
Jul 12th, 2005, 09:17 PM
From reading the title of this thread, I kinda expected to open it up and see some hot LEZ action between Martina and the top players of the WTA. :(