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View Full Version : So what happened to the vaunted Russian 'domination'?


Volcana
Jul 8th, 2005, 05:19 PM
To some, the 'Russian Domination on the tour was a one hit wonder that was an effect of the truly great players on the tour being injured. SO I decided to do a quickie analysis. I looked at where the Russians were in the top hundred or the Porsche race, and where they finished last year. Hardly a perfect analytical tool, but not wretched either.

What I found, in a nutshell, was this. The Russians are doing BETTER than last year. There are 14 Russians in the top hundred of the Porsche standings. Eight of them are higher in the Porsche standings than they ended last year, Five are lower, and one esentially unchanged.

Of the five who are lower, one of them is Kuznetsova, who won the US Open last year. Since that tournament hasn't been played yet, it's to be expected that she'd be ranked lower than the end of last year. Another is Elena Bovina, who's only played eight tournaments this year because of injury. Take away those two, and it's eight Russians playing better, and only three playing worse. Of course, those three are Myskina, Dementieva and Zvonareva. So the five Russians playing below last year's pace were five of the six highest ranked Russians.

But as a group, they're still doing well, with eight players in the top 40 of this year's race. Notice that Douchevina and Linetskaya are really moving.
05 (04) name
-- ---- -------------- ------- --
02 (04) SHARAPOVA .... 2877.00 10
07 (12) PETROVA ...... 1695.00 14
11 (05) KUZNETSOVA* .. 1271.00 11
13 (06) DEMENTIEVA ... 1216.00 10
15 (24) LIKHOVTSEVA .. 1010.00 14
20 (44) SAFINA ....... _773.00 13
21 (03) MYSKINA ...... _771.00 12
27 (11) ZVONAREVA .... _629.00 13
29 (63) DOUCHEVINA ... _623.00 13
30 (95) LINETSKAYA ... _588.00 14
31 (107)KIRILENKO .... _571.00 15
32 (15) BOVINA** ..... _558.00 08
40 (83) CHAKVETADZE .. _511.00 14
78 (77) PANOVA........ _230.00 13

* Kuzzy gained a lot of points for the US Open last year, so it's to be expected she'd be behind last years pace.

** Elena B has been injured most of the year, and simply hasn't played as many tournaments.


And sorry about the thread title. I couldn't resist.:)

furrykitten
Jul 8th, 2005, 05:30 PM
Some people do talk nonsense, what happened to the Russain domination?. How many Russains are in the top 40 again?. :devil: :eek: :rolleyes: :wavey:

spartanfan
Jul 8th, 2005, 05:31 PM
Well three of the four majors have been played, and two of the three Russians did not defend their GS titles, and I just don't see Kuznetsova defending her US Open title either. Plus if the cut off date was today, which I know it isn't, then four of the five Russians who played at the YEC wouldn't be back, and losing a boat load of points in the process.

DemWilliamsGulls
Jul 8th, 2005, 05:34 PM
I dont think a russian will win a grand slam this year...if one does it will be Sharapova at the US...and I doubt she does that with Lindsay, Venus, Pierce, Serena, Clijsters, Henin, Capriati and other people there...those people are top hard court players...its going to make it even harder for the Russian to win the U.S. this time around. Last year they barely got past 2 shaky Americans (davenport and capriati), Venus out of form, Serena was cheated...this year its going to be more hunger for the title...and more players in top form...so I guess we will wait and see.

Andy T
Jul 8th, 2005, 05:36 PM
It'd be interesting to see where the Russians were in July 04, rather than Dec '04, compared to July 05.

Veenut
Jul 8th, 2005, 05:58 PM
My opinion on the Russians is that they will always be waiting in wings to cease any opportunity that come their way if the better players falter for any reason. The opportunity presented itself last year and they wisely made good use of it.

Their good position in the rankings is mostly due to their quantity of play rather than the quality. If you check their # of tournaments played you will notice that they play the most out of the top players.

The rankings seem to be slowly correcting it self as the year progress with the better players Serena, Venus, Lindsay, Justin, Maria and Moresmo at the top then the remainder of the Russians.

goldenlox
Jul 8th, 2005, 05:58 PM
Since February, the Russians have won 2 Tier III's. That's all.
So no domination at all.
But 12 in the top 35. So a lot of them are making a decent living.

densuprun
Jul 8th, 2005, 06:22 PM
There was no domination to begin with, at least in comparison to Williams and Belgian dominations.

goldenlox
Jul 8th, 2005, 06:26 PM
There was no domination to begin with, at least in comparison to Williams and Belgian dominations.Russians won 3 straight majors, and the YEC. Plus Fed Cup last year.
So that compares okay to Belgium.
Nowhere near the USA. But things might change in the next few years.

Bitter Blue Bong
Jul 8th, 2005, 06:40 PM
Russians won 3 straight majors, and the YEC. Plus Fed Cup last year.
So that compares okay to Belgium.

But let's not forget that three different Russians won the majors, it wasn't the same pair (Kim/Justine, Venus/Serena) pairing off in consecutive slam finals. So their 'domination' was a bit watered down to begin with.

Shenay La Soul
Jul 8th, 2005, 07:54 PM
They're doing well but I'm sure that Myskina and Sharapova that would've tarded a successful title defense over doing well. Never saw last year's results as domination. The trio of slam winners (and Demetieva) just played really well when it counted the most.

Volcana
Jul 8th, 2005, 09:25 PM
13 players in the top 40 of the Porsche race is pretty dominant, on a tour that ranks 1200 players. Not what most people mean by 'domination', of course. But if your real interest is in how the players from that country are doing as a whole, you have to be pleased. The rest of the decade bodes well.

UDiTY
Jul 8th, 2005, 09:32 PM
1/2 of the quarterfinalists at Wimbledon were Russian, so they are still doing pretty well.

I think the difference is the Belgians are back and Venus is playing better, so no luck for the Russians.

:p

matthias
Jul 8th, 2005, 11:42 PM
they benefit from the injuries from Clijsters, HeninHardenne, Davenport and the unmotivation from the Williams sisters

Kart
Jul 8th, 2005, 11:55 PM
They're not dominating the headlines which I suppose leads to the impression that they're not dominating the tour.

The truth is though that there always seems to be one or two Russians in the latter stages of big tournaments nowadays.

They're gradually putting more and more of themselves into contention.

It's not unreasonable that we'll see more results like last year - albeit probably not as dramatic.

Shonami Slam
Jul 9th, 2005, 12:05 AM
the russians are not slam winners and big tournament stars, they are an army threatning every title and player.

mboyle
Jul 9th, 2005, 12:06 AM
The sisters and the Belgians are more talented than any Russian other than Sharpie and Kuzzie (same level). However, Russia has the next 5 or 10 best players (well, Ivanovic and Vaidisova are right up there, but you get it;) ...)

TJL
Jul 9th, 2005, 12:26 AM
I never thought that there was a domination by Russians, but Russia is the top country in WTA. And no other country is even close. Domination by one country IMHO is more about about the depth of the countries' players (10-20, not just 2-5 top players) and because of that winning DS's is not as important as WTA rankings. Looking at the stages of top 50 players's careers at this point Russian domination in few years doesn't seem too unlikely though.

It seems that the question of Russian domination boils down to the question what you equal as the domination. If you only count in the number of GSs then Russians clearly dominated last year and have regressed this year. Does anybody want to bet whether the people who are now posting about the ending of the Russian domination are the same who last year posted about the Russian domination? I mean surely if they are consistent they were hailing about the Russian domination last year. Right? :p

Kudos for Volcano for posting this thread and backing his views with the stats.

CoolDude7
Jul 9th, 2005, 01:13 AM
There are just so many of them. They dont have to have a great performance to make it through to the later rounds.

Gowza
Jul 9th, 2005, 01:25 AM
there was no domination just a lot of russians all jumping on an opporunity to do well. 3 different russian slam winners in the one year and another who was a 2 times grand slam finalist that year, so really there were 4 russians doing really well as opposed to just the 2 belgians or the 2 williams sisters. it was pretty much inevitable that the belgians and williams sisters would comeback and win the slams again, the most surprising thing is that davenport couldnt get a slam win out of it all. the russians are still doing well thought, petrova has been to the QFs or better in 3 of the last 4 slams, kuznetsova has done the same, sharapova has reached the QFs or better in 5 of the last 6 slams, dementieva has been to the final of slams twice in the last 6 and 3 times the 4th round, myskina in the last 6 has been to the QFs or better only twice but one includes her RG win and if you count the 2 slams before that she has been to the QFs or better 4 out of 8 slams. the others arent worth mentioning with a 4th round here or there for them but the russians are doing much better than a couple of years ago. they consistently get a number of players into the QFs or better of each slam now.

xan
Jul 9th, 2005, 01:48 AM
Okay. Let's take the Top twenty.

1. Lindsay Davenport usa
2. Maria Sharapova rus
3. Amelie Mauresmo fra
4. Svetlana Kuznetsova rus (+2)
5. Elena Dementieva rus
6. Serena Williams usa (-2)
7. Justine Henin-Hardenne bel
8. Venus Williams usa (+8)
9. Nadia Petrova rus (-1)
10. Anastasia Myskina rus
11. Alicia Molik aus (-2)
12. Patty Schnyder sui (-1)
13. Mary Pierce fra (+1)
14. Kim Clijsters bel (-1)
15. Vera Zvonareva rus (-3)
16. Elena Likhovtseva rus (+1)
17. Elena Bovina rus (-2)
18. Nathalie Dechy fra
19. Jelena Jankovic scg
20. Ana Ivanovic scg (+1)

Eliminate all players of 25 and over.

1.
2. Maria Sharapova rus

4. Svetlana Kuznetsova rus (+2)
5. Elena Dementieva rus
6. Serena Williams usa (-2)
7. Justine Henin-Hardenne bel

9. Nadia Petrova rus (-1)
10. Anastasia Myskina rus
11. Alicia Molik aus (-2)


14. Kim Clijsters bel (-1)
15. Vera Zvonareva rus (-3)

17. Elena Bovina rus (-2)

19. Jelena Jankovic scg
20. Ana Ivanovic scg (+1)


There's the Russian Domination.

~ The Leopard ~
Jul 9th, 2005, 03:49 AM
There was never a Russian domination. It was just media hype based on three GS wins by different Russian players. However, this was at a time when Serena, Venus and Justine had had bad breaks of various kinds - there was no underlying drift away from those players, as we've seen this year with them sharing the three GSs so far.

That said, there are lots of good Russian players and I hope they continue to do well. In particular, I hope Masha wins another slam soon. It would be good for the game if she consolidated and proved quickly that she is more than a one-slam wonder. She's playing at a level where she is now always going to be one of the favourites, so let's see her take the next step.

ico4498
Jul 9th, 2005, 04:50 AM
maybe if i scratch my head hard enough i'll understand the curious logic that explains why more Russians winning in 2004 is somehow "watered down". its really bad math, more winners (3 vrs 2) aint watered down its concentrated!

the return of the "oldies" but goodies was sure to alter the dynamic, but look closely. the thin line holding the status quo is surrounded by Russian contenders. i understand Volcana's facetious title but the "Russians are coming" is more true today than it ever was during the cold war.

Brooks.
Jul 9th, 2005, 05:01 AM
The sisters and the Belgians are more talented than any Russian other than Sharpie and Kuzzie (same level). However, Russia has the next 5 or 10 best players (well, Ivanovic and Vaidisova are right up there, but you get it;) ...)

I dont think kuznetsova even at her best really has the talent that venus, serena, and justine have.........sharapova's best attribute in my opinion is her mental toughness.......i mean lots of players have the strokes including many of the other russians but none of them have the mental strength that she has

ZAK
Jul 9th, 2005, 05:12 AM
I dont think kuznetsova even at her best really has the talent that venus, serena, and justine have.........sharapova's best attribute in my opinion is her mental toughness.......i mean lots of players have the strokes including many of the other russians but none of them have the mental strength that she has

She's also pretty consistent from tournament to tournament, which many Russians are not

JohnBoy
Jul 9th, 2005, 05:46 AM
The so called Russian domination was all media hype.. Apart from Sharapova & Kuznetsova i don't see any of the rest being a real threat in the grand slams..

Volcana
Jul 9th, 2005, 06:53 AM
Eliminate all players of 25 and over.

1.
2. Maria Sharapova rus

4. Svetlana Kuznetsova rus (+2)
5. Elena Dementieva rus
6. Serena Williams usa (-2)
7. Justine Henin-Hardenne bel

9. Nadia Petrova rus (-1)
10. Anastasia Myskina rus
11. Alicia Molik aus (-2)


14. Kim Clijsters bel (-1)
15. Vera Zvonareva rus (-3)

17. Elena Bovina rus (-2)

19. Jelena Jankovic scg
20. Ana Ivanovic scg (+1)


There's the Russian Domination.Xan - that does NOT constitute a proof od 'domination' by any definition. At best, it show 'potential', 'future' domination. The age of the players has nothing to do with current performance. A '25 or older' just won WImbledon.

I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion. I'm saying your proof is flawed. Ask your logic professor.

Jakeev
Jul 9th, 2005, 09:07 AM
Seems like this was talked about last week but whatever. The top 10 Russians (Maria Sharapova to Vera Douchevina) so far this year as of Wimbledon have a combined 229-100 record.

Not really sure if that is better than last year, but considering in 2004, Russians had won two Grand Slams up to this point and had been doing well in many tournaments, it would seem they have fallen off a bit.

Sharapova is the only one of the group that has made it to the quarters or better of all of her tournaments. Meanwhile, the "big" guns, Kuznetsova, Dementieva and Myskina have not really performed consistently week end and week out.

Elena Bovina is still injured and if anything, Nadia Petrova has actually been the second-best Russian player in 2005 behind Maria.

And it cannot be denied that with the major resurgence of Lindsay Davenport and the return of the Williams sisters, Justine and Kim, those five have made an major impact on how Russia has not performed in 2005.

Point is though, Russia is going to keep coming and it's probably only due time that it actually becomes a major tennis power week end and out.

xan
Jul 9th, 2005, 12:00 PM
Xan - that does NOT constitute a proof od 'domination' by any definition. At best, it show 'potential', 'future' domination. The age of the players has nothing to do with current performance. A '25 or older' just won WImbledon.

I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion. I'm saying your proof is flawed. Ask your logic professor.

I don't know why I have to spell everything out step-by-step.

I thought my point was obvious....

THE RUSSIAN DOMINATION IS GROWING IN DEPTH

If you take out older players from the Top 20 (likely to retire in the next 1-5 years), we see what looks very like a crushing Russian domination.

2. Maria Sharapova rus
4. Svetlana Kuznetsova rus (+2)
5. Elena Dementieva rus
6. Serena Williams usa (-2)
7. Justine Henin-Hardenne bel
9. Nadia Petrova rus (-1)
10. Anastasia Myskina rus
11. Alicia Molik aus (-2)
14. Kim Clijsters bel (-1)
15. Vera Zvonareva rus (-3)
17. Elena Bovina rus (-2)
19. Jelena Jankovic scg
20. Ana Ivanovic scg (+1)

Over half the players left are Russian. Among the newer players at the top, the Russians (and ex-Yugoslavs) dominate. Not only are new elite Americans and West Europeans not evident, the ones that remain on the list often have problems playing a full tour.

Knizzle
Jul 9th, 2005, 12:05 PM
There isn't total dominance in winning tournies for the Russians, but they are in the QFs, SFs and Fs of tournies every week so you do have to go through them to be successful on tour, but they aren't winning every week yet. Though in about 5 years when others start to retire it looks like they will dominate.

CoolDude7
Jul 9th, 2005, 12:09 PM
There isn't total dominance in winning tournies for the Russians, but they are in the QFs, SFs and Fs of tournies every week so you do have to go through them to be successful on tour, but they aren't winning every week yet. Though in about 5 years when others start to retire it looks like they will dominate.
very true

Maria Croft
Jul 9th, 2005, 12:20 PM
No offence to this thread but the russian domination threads are getting so damn boring !!

Lady
Jul 9th, 2005, 01:31 PM
There isn't total dominance in winning tournies for the Russians, but they are in the QFs, SFs and Fs of tournies every week so you do have to go through them to be successful on tour, but they aren't winning every week yet. Though in about 5 years when others start to retire it looks like they will dominate.

In 5 years time maybe Ana Ivanovic & Nicole Vaidisova will be dominating, so I'n not that sure that Russians will dominate then. But there still will be plenty of Russian players, that's for sure. ;)

VeraNuVirgosFan
Jul 9th, 2005, 03:45 PM
In 5 years time maybe Ana Ivanovic & Nicole Vaidisova will be dominating, so I'n not that sure that Russians will dominate then.
But Sharapova will also be around.

manu
Jul 9th, 2005, 04:19 PM
I agree that Russia would probably be head and shoulders above the rest if we had a country-ranking. But otherwise, I think true 'domination' in the most litteral sense of the word, can only be measured in the highest ranges of a sport.

Who cares if there is a country with 19 top-20 players? If there's one other player who systematically beats them down to win the Slams, there is no true domination IMO.

Russia is one of the strongest forces in women's tennis right now, but they will only be a truely dominating force if they can develop multiple players who can consistently reach Slam semi's and finals and win them. Currently only Maria qualifies, and even she will have to prove herself again as a true Champion (and Slam finalist) after the loss of her Wimbledon title.

I think only Maria and Sveta have the potential to become this kind of really consistent top contenders. IF they keep developing that potential (eg play multiple Slam finals like the Belgians and the American girls, which I don't see happening in the near future), then we can really call the Russians 'dominating' in every sense of the word IMO.

Such a domination would be very impressive compared to 'Belgian or American domination' considering their number of lower-ranked players.

But right now, for me, the Russian domination is most of all a domination of numbers and stats (not to take anything away from their Slam titles last year, which they earnt, but IMO it was no true domination). Though they're obviously doing extremely well as a country.

RenaSlam.
Jul 9th, 2005, 04:22 PM
That's easy to explain. Maria has carried the "Russians" all year.

The End.

VeeReeDavJCap81
Jul 9th, 2005, 04:27 PM
That's easy to explain. Maria has carried the "Russians" all year.

The End.

She really has...she's the only one that's been consistent the whole year.

ys
Jul 9th, 2005, 04:43 PM
Look.. when top players play elsewhere, they are just there to play.. When Venus Williams, Anastasia Myskina and Elena Dementieva play in Moscow, they are specifically asked to spend a time with Russian young tennis players, who want to be like them. Tennis is a passion among Russian youngsters. Boys have football and hockey. For girls tennis is the only celebrity sport. There is an army of Russian girls wanting to be like Maria, Venus, Anastasia, Elena. And that;s Russia.. with its unparalleled work ethics in sports.

goldenlox
Jul 9th, 2005, 04:44 PM
That's easy to explain. Maria has carried the "Russians" all year.

The End.Nadia has equal results to Maria since the red clay season started.
Sveta has similar results.

Sam L
Jul 9th, 2005, 05:06 PM
That's easy to explain. Maria has carried the "Russians" all year.

The End.
Vamos! :clap2:

Maria Croft
Jul 9th, 2005, 05:11 PM
Nadia has equal results to Maria since the red clay season started.
Sveta has similar results.

equal results ?? Maria has won 3 tournaments this year !!

Nadia:

Gold Coast QF
Sydney QF
Australian Open 4th round
Paris SF
Antwerp 2nd round
Indian Wells 4th round
Miami 2nd round
Amelia Island SF
Charleston QF
Berlin F
Rome 3th round
Roland Garros SF
Rosmalen 3th round
Wimbledon QF

Maria:

Australian Open SF
Tokyo W
Doha W
Indian Wells SF
Miami F
Berlin QF
Rome SF
Roland Garros QF
Birmingham W
Wimbledon SF

you can't even compare them, and I'm not trying to make Nadia look bad because she had some great results this year BUT Goldenlox needs to stop comparing Maria to Nadia all the time, it's annoying and as you can see wrong !!

goldenlox
Jul 9th, 2005, 05:13 PM
I said since the red clay season started.
Nadia reached a Tier I final. Plus slam semi & quarter.
Maria's only final is in a Tier III.

Maria Croft
Jul 9th, 2005, 05:16 PM
I said since the red clay season started.
Nadia reached a Tier I final. Plus slam semi & quarter.
Maria's only final is in a Tier III.

that's not fair, clay is Maria's worst surface and Nadia's best, and Maria won that tier 3, Nadia didn't !! I'm only trying to say they are not the same !! so stop comparing them !!

goldenlox
Jul 9th, 2005, 05:18 PM
I'm replying to people who are saying Maria is by far doing the best.
Since April, it's not true.
Now they all have to go prove themselves on hardcourt.
The last 2 years, Maria did much worse in the Rogers Cup & the US Open than she did on grass.

CoolDude7
Jul 9th, 2005, 05:21 PM
Maria and Kuz are the best Russian players. If kuz can get her mental game in order. Watch out.

Maria Croft
Jul 9th, 2005, 05:22 PM
I'm replying to people who are saying Maria is by far doing the best.
Since April, it's not true.
Now they all have to go prove themselves on hardcourt.
The last 2 years, Maria did much worse in the Rogers Cup & the US Open than she did on grass.

well duh !! two years ago she was 16 !! and last year she just won Wimbledon !! since April ?? that's crap, that's the clay season, you have to look at the whole year

goldenlox
Jul 9th, 2005, 05:24 PM
well duh !! two years ago she was 16 !! and last year she just won Wimbledon !! since April ?? that's crap, that's the clay season, you have to look at the whole year
16, 61, I don't care. Maria beat Dementieva, Dechy, Bovina and Dokic on grass in 2003.
Then lost round 1 to Likhovtseva in Canada, and round 2 to Loit in NYC.

Maria Croft
Jul 9th, 2005, 05:34 PM
16, 61, I don't care. Maria beat Dementieva, Dechy, Bovina and Dokic on grass in 2003.
Then lost round 1 to Likhovtseva in Canada, and round 2 to Loit in NYC.

:rolleyes:

and yet you don't mention that she made the third round in Los Angeles beating Petrova and pushing Clijsters to a third set, and you also don't mention that Petrova also lost in a first round match, against Vento-Kabchi

you know it's sad how you always make what Maria did look bad or not good, you always expect her to beat anyone at anytime, it doesn't work that way

goldenlox
Jul 9th, 2005, 05:35 PM
I hope Maria does great this summer and fall. Nadia also.
But the last 2 years, Maria's grass results are way above her summer hardcourt results.

After she beat Nadia in 2003, her next top 40 win was Smashnova. 8 months later.

Maria Croft
Jul 9th, 2005, 05:45 PM
I hope Maria does great this summer and fall. Nadia also.
But the last 2 years, Maria's grass results are way above her summer hardcourt results.

After she beat Nadia in 2003, her next top 40 win was Smashnova. 8 months later.

I'm not sure about that top 40 win 8 months later

but again you don't mention that she won her first 2 tournaments at the end of that year

goldenlox
Jul 9th, 2005, 05:46 PM
I'm not sure about that top 40 win 8 months later

but again you don't mention that she won her first 2 tournaments at the end of that yearI remember those well. I was up to 3 AM when she beat Kapros.
I was here, getting scores online.

Maria Croft
Jul 9th, 2005, 05:48 PM
I remember those well. I was up to 3 AM when she beat Kapros.
I was here, getting scores online.

your point being ?!

goldenlox
Jul 9th, 2005, 05:50 PM
I haven't forgotten them. We discussed them in Russian Roulette.
Maria didn't beat a top 40 player in those tournaments.
And she skipped the only tournament in Russia, the Kremlin Cup. Which Anastasia won in 2003 & 2004.
We discussed all that alot.

Maria Croft
Jul 9th, 2005, 05:58 PM
I haven't forgotten them. We discussed them in Russian Roulette.
Maria didn't beat a top 40 player in those tournaments.
And she skipped the only tournament in Russia, the Kremlin Cup. Which Anastasia won in 2003 & 2004.
We discussed all that alot.

you know it's okay, we both like Maria and want her too win and be the best, but sometimes I get to feeling you want her to do too much