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View Full Version : Why did noone talk about Venus' behaviour when her serve was clearly out ?


justine&coria
Jul 6th, 2005, 03:23 PM
Well, I know it's a bit late, but I'm just watching the Wimbledon finals' now. And it's quite good (though Venus makes a bit too much errors).
I don't want to start a (big) fight here, but when Venus was serving in the second set at 4-4 I think, her ball was so out. The umpire didn't tell anything, but Lindsay was kinda shocked to see that such a fault wasn't seen by the linesmen or even the umpire.
Venus too knew the ball was out, but she just went to the other side as if her ball was in (and it made 30/00). She didn't hear "fault" and just went to the other side. :o (even before Davenport talked to the umpire)

That's a bit bitchy and I personaly loved it, loved Venus' face (sorry to Davy's fans! :o ), though it's not fair. (i love it when players are arrogant etc. -> it's often funny).

Had Justine, Serena or Sharapova done this, they would be so criticised !! :lol:
So why isn't it the case with Venus ? Now that she isn't dominating, has she more fans ?

slydevil6142
Jul 6th, 2005, 03:27 PM
B/c Venus never makes a fuse about lines calls. She has gotten plenty of bad calls and she knows that her only job is to play tennis not to call lines. Only time Ive seen Venus get "upset" about calls are on clay when she can clearly see them.

SJW
Jul 6th, 2005, 03:31 PM
i would have preferred she said the ball was out.
but we can't all be perfect :)
much credit to Lindsays fans for not making a song and dance about it, i probably would have :yeah:

Dawn Marie
Jul 6th, 2005, 03:31 PM
Oh please.


After all that Venus went through last year I wouldn't say shit either. Nor would Lindsay, Henin,Serena,Kim,Elena D,Sveta.. and the list goes on and on and on. Players get bad recieve bad calls all the time. Some more than others though imho.

JonBcn
Jul 6th, 2005, 03:32 PM
I noticed this too and didn't dare raise the subject ;) Nobody could say that Venus didnt deserve a free point after what happened to her last year, but when you think that Davenport was a point away from winning, and a point was clearly stolen from her...ouch!

Infiniti2001
Jul 6th, 2005, 03:32 PM
She was probably thinking "fuck Ted Watts" , it's my turn now :lol: Seriously though , I wish she had said something :sad:

cheo23
Jul 6th, 2005, 03:34 PM
[QUOTE=slydevil6142]B/c Venus never makes a fuse about lines calls. [QUOTE]
U Obviously Didn't SEe her "FUSE" IN her Match against Jana Novotna 1998 WIMbledon Quarters :lol:

Dawn Marie
Jul 6th, 2005, 03:37 PM
I wished she did what she did. Say nothing and play the tennis ball.

I remember when Venus's beads fell out and she got points taken from her.. whe let it get to her. She played Lindsay as well. This time she stayed focused and played the ball.:) Who knows her losing focus may have lost her her fifth slam.:)

FEARLESS VENUS WILLIAMS RULEZ!:)

slydevil6142
Jul 6th, 2005, 03:38 PM
[QUOTE=slydevil6142]B/c Venus never makes a fuse about lines calls. [QUOTE]
U Obviously Didn't SEe her "FUSE" IN her Match against Jana Novotna 1998 WIMbledon Quarters :lol:

Oh I saw that haha... and her meltdown in Aus against Davenport.... but she has come a looooooooong way and doesnt behavior like that anymore.

Infiniti2001
Jul 6th, 2005, 03:41 PM
was it really at one of Davy's match points??

No it wasn't. I believe it was when she was serving to get to 4-4 in the 2nd set.

Knizzle
Jul 6th, 2005, 03:42 PM
She was on the other side of the court, you definitely shouldn't say your own ball was out from the other side of the court if you're not sure. That's like an ump overuling the line furthest from him or her.

Dawn Marie
Jul 6th, 2005, 03:43 PM
Oh and one thing. Her BEHAVIOR was great. She remained silent and continued to play the ball. I saw some balls that I thought looked out that Lindsay hit and the look in Vee's eyes said this too. She remained focused and played the ball.

What did you want her to do? raise her hand? Cross over to the other side of the net?

Hell no! take it as a bad call gone toward Lindsay and play the yellow ball. After the match talk it over with your American team mate in the lockerroom or during Fed Cup.

alexusjonesfan
Jul 6th, 2005, 03:47 PM
Had Justine, Serena or Sharapova done this, they would be so criticised !! :lol:


Forget about those three, do you remember what some people said about Sprem last year? ;) That said, there was a thread about this, a couple threads I think, but they all died :p

rightous
Jul 6th, 2005, 03:58 PM
Lindsay's chat to Armstrong was hilarious when she said 'If I did my job as bad as you I wouldn't be here'!!!lol

DemWilliamsGulls
Jul 6th, 2005, 04:02 PM
Well everybody gets phucked by the ref every now and then...it happend with Venus last year against Sprem, Serena at the US open....shit happens u just have to keep moving on...Some players (like the williams sisters) get bad calls and still win.

cellophane
Jul 6th, 2005, 04:02 PM
was it really at one of Davy's match points??

No, but I think it was at an important point, like Lindsay would have had break points or 0-30 or something on Venus' serve.

JonBcn
Jul 6th, 2005, 04:03 PM
was it really at one of Davy's match points??

No, no - sorry I wasn't clear. It wasn't a match point. My point was just that if Davenport had been awarded that point things could have panned out differently, as she ultimately needed one more point to win at one stage.

the bambi
Jul 6th, 2005, 04:08 PM
Well, I know it's a bit late, but I'm just watching the Wimbledon finals' now. And it's quite good (though Venus makes a bit too much errors).
I don't want to start a (big) fight here, but when Venus was serving in the second set at 4-4 I think, her ball was so out. The umpire didn't tell anything, but Lindsay was kinda shocked to see that such a fault wasn't seen by the linesmen or even the umpire.
Venus too knew the ball was out, but she just went to the other side as if her ball was in (and it made 30/00). She didn't hear "fault" and just went to the other side. :o (even before Davenport talked to the umpire)

That's a bit bitchy and I personaly loved it, loved Venus' face (sorry to Davy's fans! :o ), though it's not fair. (i love it when players are arrogant etc. -> it's often funny).

Had Justine, Serena or Sharapova done this, they would be so criticised !! :lol:
So why isn't it the case with Venus ? Now that she isn't dominating, has she more fans ?

doesn't matter. lindsay stepped up to serve for the title and was broken at love, rendering that bad call on venus' serve insignificant.

alfonsojose
Jul 6th, 2005, 04:13 PM
It's not her job.

Rocketta
Jul 6th, 2005, 04:14 PM
How do y'all know Venus saw the ball as out? :scratch:

harloo
Jul 6th, 2005, 04:16 PM
The fact of the matter is that this was a heavily contested final and for most of the match Lindsay had many looks to close out Venus. Lindsay had many 15-30 points on Venus serve, served for the match, and had championship points.

Venus could of said something during that point but was it really her job? Last year when she was cheated by Ted Watts she did not make a big stink about it in her interview. Richard was right though, it was really her fault for playing poorly.

I honestly felt that Lindsay flinched when she served for it, and when she was so close to winning. IMO, that was the difference which allowed Venus to win. On the big points she stepped up while Lindsay faultered. That one point did not change the outcome of the match at all.

darrinbaker00
Jul 6th, 2005, 04:19 PM
No, but I think it was at an important point, like Lindsay would have had break points or 0-30 or something on Venus' serve.
It was 15-0, first serve. If the correct call had been made, it would have been 15-0, second serve. Since Venus won 47 percent of her second-serve points during that match, there's no guarantee that Lindsay would have won that point.

cellophane
Jul 6th, 2005, 04:21 PM
It was 15-0, first serve. If the correct call had been made, it would have been 15-0, second serve. Since Venus won 47 percent of her second-serve points during that match, there's no guarantee that Lindsay would have won that point.

Hmm, really? I thougt it was a second-serve point. Never mind that then.

alexusjonesfan
Jul 6th, 2005, 04:22 PM
How do y'all know Venus saw the ball as out? :scratch:

It was waay out (no need for shotspot on this one) and one would assume that she pays attention to where she serves. Still, it wasn't on a big point and it didn't really end up unsettling Lindsay, she still served for the match after that, choked, had a match point on Venus's serve, and was a point away from a 5-2 lead in the third. It's not like this robbed her of a chance. It was actually like last year when they screwed up the score in Venus's match. She had lots of setpoints despite that and failed to convert.

Master Lu
Jul 6th, 2005, 04:27 PM
How do y'all know Venus saw the ball as out? :scratch:

Venus is two centimeters shorter then I am, so I know her pow. The ball was wide of the center line by quite a margin. It wasn't the service line so she'd have a skewed pow, it was the center line - straight in front of her. There's no way in hell she didn't see it was wide. She should have said something. She didn't. I don't hold it against her. I do hold it against SOME of her fans who are still making nasty comments about Sprem that they said absolutely nothing about this instance, or worse are dissmissing it as payback.

cartmancop
Jul 6th, 2005, 04:29 PM
I think she thought it was out b/c she went to serve again & didn't hear a call so she just figured she saw it wrong....She knew it wasn't her call, if the linesperson & chair umpire saw it as good, although it wasn't, she wasn't in any position to argue it & why would she? it's not her fault and she & Lindsay understood that.

That is the hardest spot to see your own serve though IMO. That corner on the ad-side where it was near....

cellophane
Jul 6th, 2005, 04:31 PM
Hmm, really? I thougt it was a second-serve point. Never mind that then.

That's what happens when you don't read the original post. :o Strange though, I thought it was a more important point. I guess my memory is clouded by the ridiculousness of that call.

moby
Jul 6th, 2005, 04:36 PM
It was waay out (no need for shotspot on this one) and one would assume that she pays attention to where she serves.Apparently Pete Sampras thinks she doesn't. :p I stand by the opinion that one point in the middle of a game does not a match make. The dynamics of tennis scoring are such that it is difficult to predict which way the game would have fell unless a bad call occurs on game point or break point.

What annoys me is that Armstrong isn't getting the flake that many of the umpires (Watts, Alves, etc.) in a similar situation had gotten. That just isn't fair is it, especially since this happened in the final, the match of the tournament.

As I see it, Venus (and Williams) fans are generally consistent about this issue, although perhaps less vehement than they had been for our little RG 03 fiasco. That's understandable though.

justine&coria
Jul 6th, 2005, 04:39 PM
Just to clarify : It was 15/0, Venus serving a 1st serve which is soooooo out. However, point to Venus 30/0.
There was no second serve or whatever. It was a free point for Venus. (it's way worse than "The Hand" thing).

justine&coria
Jul 6th, 2005, 04:41 PM
What annoys me is that Armstrong isn't getting the flake that many of the umpires (Watts, Alves, etc.) in a similar situation had gotten. That just isn't fair is it, especially since this happened in the final, the match of the tournament.

I didn't think about that, but you're right !

Knizzle
Jul 6th, 2005, 04:42 PM
Just to clarify : It was 15/0, Venus serving a 1st serve which is soooooo out. However, point to Venus 30/0.
There was no second serve or whatever. It was a free point for Venus. (it's way worse than "The Hand" thing).

You can't be serious. :lol:

harloo
Jul 6th, 2005, 04:44 PM
You cannot even compare the bad call of Armstong to the errors of Ted Watts last year. That is absolutely insane.

AkademiQ
Jul 6th, 2005, 04:45 PM
Wait, now suddenly all the excuses used for other players don't apply to Venus, please!

Rocketta
Jul 6th, 2005, 04:51 PM
Venus is two centimeters shorter then I am, so I know her pow. The ball was wide of the center line by quite a margin. It wasn't the service line so she'd have a skewed pow, it was the center line - straight in front of her. There's no way in hell she didn't see it was wide. She should have said something. She didn't. I don't hold it against her. I do hold it against SOME of her fans who are still making nasty comments about Sprem that they said absolutely nothing about this instance, or worse are dissmissing it as payback.

so in other words you don't know if she saw it or not....if she thought it was out or not...it's not like there's a picture of her looking dead at the ball while it falls out a few feet away from her?

We can all guess what Vee saw and knew but only she knows and somehow I suspect she and Lindsay have moved on.

Rocketta
Jul 6th, 2005, 04:54 PM
It was waay out (no need for shotspot on this one) and one would assume that she pays attention to where she serves. Still, it wasn't on a big point and it didn't really end up unsettling Lindsay, she still served for the match after that, choked, had a match point on Venus's serve, and was a point away from a 5-2 lead in the third. It's not like this robbed her of a chance. It was actually like last year when they screwed up the score in Venus's match. She had lots of setpoints despite that and failed to convert.

one would assume she pays attention to the score in a tiebreak but she didn't. So no Vee is a singular type focus kind of person and no I don't think you can assume that. It's funny because if someone had said that a player would not keep up with the score in the tiebreak everyone would say that's impossible but Vee proved it's not.

Calimero377
Jul 6th, 2005, 04:56 PM
Well, I know it's a bit late, but I'm just watching the Wimbledon finals' now. And it's quite good (though Venus makes a bit too much errors).
I don't want to start a (big) fight here, but when Venus was serving in the second set at 4-4 I think, her ball was so out. The umpire didn't tell anything, but Lindsay was kinda shocked to see that such a fault wasn't seen by the linesmen or even the umpire.
Venus too knew the ball was out, but she just went to the other side as if her ball was in (and it made 30/00). She didn't hear "fault" and just went to the other side. :o (even before Davenport talked to the umpire)

That's a bit bitchy and I personaly loved it, loved Venus' face (sorry to Davy's fans! :o ), though it's not fair. (i love it when players are arrogant etc. -> it's often funny).

Had Justine, Serena or Sharapova done this, they would be so criticised !! :lol:
So why isn't it the case with Venus ? Now that she isn't dominating, has she more fans ?


1) She is from the U.S. AND ...
2) she is black.

Criticising her would be racist ....

Rocketta
Jul 6th, 2005, 04:58 PM
What annoys me is that Armstrong isn't getting the flake that many of the umpires (Watts, Alves, etc.) in a similar situation had gotten. That just isn't fair is it, especially since this happened in the final, the match of the tournament.



That's because Armstrong did the correct thing if he didn't see it clearly then he can't overrule. Now maybe he blinked at the wrong time and missed a very bad call but the ball was not on his side of the court. What was he suppose to do if he wasn't sure? Overrule and possibly be wrong....that's much worse.

The fault lies with the linesman because clearly he didn't see the ball...maybe he was blocked by Lindsay or he just lost focus...I don't know but he should've signaled that he didn't see it if he didn't.

GoDominique
Jul 6th, 2005, 04:59 PM
EVERYONE was waiting for the "out" call, including Venus. No need to blame her though. Blame Gerry.

Knizzle
Jul 6th, 2005, 04:59 PM
1) She is from the U.S. AND ...
2) she is black.

Criticising her would be racist ....

You should talk, criticizing Graf must be treason then?? Off with their heads eh Cali??

alexusjonesfan
Jul 6th, 2005, 05:04 PM
one would assume she pays attention to the score in a tiebreak but she didn't. So no Vee is a singular type focus kind of person and no I don't think you can assume that. It's funny because if someone had said that a player would not keep up with the score in the tiebreak everyone would say that's impossible but Vee proved it's not.

I dunno, it's pretty hard not to see a ball that lands clearly wide right in front of you and the way she played, I'm pretty sure she didn't take her eye off the ball much ;). Of course there's no way to prove either way that she definitely saw it or definitely didn't see it but if I was Lindsay I'd be telling Armstrong: "I know it's out, she knows it's out, everyone knows it's out. But you don't know it's out," ;)

Rocketta
Jul 6th, 2005, 05:07 PM
I dunno, it's pretty hard not to see a ball that lands clearly wide right in front of you. Of course there's no way to prove either way that she definitely saw it or definitely didn't see it but if I was Lindsay I'd be telling Armstrong: "I know it's out, she knows it's out, everyone knows it's out. But you don't know it's out," ;)


I'm not saying she didn't see it out...I'm saying that we don't know for sure...especially with Venus because sometimes she's in a zone of her own. :)

JennyS
Jul 6th, 2005, 05:10 PM
I'd like to know how many of the people who thought Venus did the right thing bashed Jen after the 2004 USO qf.

GoDominique
Jul 6th, 2005, 05:11 PM
I'm not saying she didn't see it out...I'm saying that we don't know for sure...especially with Venus because sometimes she's in a zone of her own. :)
She did see it out. Look at her reaction.

Martian Willow
Jul 6th, 2005, 05:16 PM
Wait, now suddenly all the excuses used for other players don't apply to Venus, please!

Or, all the crap thrown at Sprem and Capriati (including, in the latter case, by me :) ) don't apply to Venus, please!

Venus knew it was out, but didn't say anything, because she never does, and possibly felt justified having been on the receiving end in the past.

Venus cannot be faulted in this regard. :)

It's just funny that *certain posters on this board* who were so quick to scream CHEAT!!!!! last year are the ones making excuses now. :D

faste5683
Jul 6th, 2005, 05:17 PM
Venus could of said something during that point but was it really her job?

:eek:

I can't believe what I'm seeing here...after all the shit Justine went through
for letting the umpire make the calls during the French...now the same situation occurs with Venus...and everything's just perfect?!

:haha: God damn! This is a freakin' riot!

Btw, I'm back from holiday, and must say that Venus truly deserved the win, whether she "cheated" or not. The difference from her performance at the French was uncanny: she made a 180 degree turn at Wimbly. Congrats to Vee and a great effort by Lindsay!

:wavey:

AkademiQ
Jul 6th, 2005, 05:19 PM
:eek:

I can't believe what I'm seeing here...after all the shit Justine went through
for letting the umpire make the calls during the French...now the same situation occurs with Venus...and everything's just perfect?!

I can't believe what I'm seeing here either. With all the justifications Justine received why is there even a question with Venus? It really is a riot. I keep on remembering a line that was used over and over, Get over it. Yeah, that's it.

AkademiQ
Jul 6th, 2005, 05:21 PM
Or, all the crap thrown at Sprem and Capriati (including, in the latter case, by me :) ) don't apply to Venus, please!

They should. If those players were excused from all the crap thrown at them, the same applies to Venus :)

Venus knew it was out, but didn't say anything, because she never does, and possibly felt justified having been on the receiving end in the past.

Venus cannot be faulted in this regard. :)

It's just funny that *certain posters on this board* who were so quick to scream CHEAT!!!!! last year are the ones making excuses now. :D

Yep, I agree, Venus can't be faulted :)

And it is funny that certain posters at this board would go after Venus after rejecting all the crap that was thrown at certain other players :D They are so quick to attack now.

pla
Jul 6th, 2005, 05:23 PM
They should. If those players were excused from all the crap thrown at them, the same applies to Venus :)



Yep, I agree, Venus can't be faulted :)

And it is funny that certain posters at this board would go after Venus after rejecting all the crap that was thrown at certain other players :D They are so quick to attack now.

No one is attacking Venus but some of the posters here.

AkademiQ
Jul 6th, 2005, 05:25 PM
No one is attacking Venus but some of the posters here.

Well this is a message board, that's the only venue I think we're all applying this to :)

Paneru
Jul 6th, 2005, 05:26 PM
EVERYONE was waiting for the "out" call, including Venus. No need to blame her though. Blame Gerry.

Wow, we actually agree!


As for people bringing up Capriati
& Sprem is total BS!


1. Jennifer was right at the line.
2. Karolina was confused and maybe didn't
know but that wasn't her fault.

I don't believe Karolina knew and as for Jenn,
it's very debateable that she saw it was good.


Venus was on the other side of the court away
from the line and chalk flew up so you can't
saw she knew or didn't.

As GD said, blame Gerry because unlike Venus
his veiw of the line was total unobstructed!

moby
Jul 6th, 2005, 05:31 PM
They should. If those players were excused from all the crap thrown at them, the same applies to Venus :)

And it is funny that certain posters at this board would go after Venus after rejecting all the crap that was thrown at certain other players :D They are so quick to attack now.The difference is, Venus hasn't had crap thrown at her yet. So her fans haven't had to go to the trouble to correctly vindicate her, and 'excuse' her from everything. ;)

Justine's thread went to 10 pages and the topic periodically crops up every few months. She's also known to some posters (especially Williams fans) as CHEATER. But I'm sure none of us wants this to apply to Venus. :p

justine&coria
Jul 6th, 2005, 05:32 PM
I can't believe what I'm seeing here either. With all the justifications Justine received why is there even a question with Venus? It really is a riot. I keep on remembering a line that was used over and over, Get over it. Yeah, that's it.
Come on, everyone here still remembers that thing.
Some people (not only here, but some commentators too) still call Justine a cheater. When we talk about "The Hand", one know who we're talking about.
Justine only did raise her hand, and there's no proof she didn't put it down when Serena served. Moreover the point didn't go to Justine, it was a second serve for Serena.
And many times, I said here that I would have prefered Justine to tell that she raised her hand, but I understand her behaviour.

But this point with Venus is funny as hell. I would have liked her to say something, but I understand the fact that she didn't.
And to some people here, do you really think she had time to think about what happened with Sprem last year ?

pla
Jul 6th, 2005, 05:34 PM
Well this is a message board, that's the only venue I think we're all applying this to :)

The fact is Venus is not under attack :lol: It's just a point, a justified point, someone makes about the attitude here. Anyways, I believe any board would gain a lot if only people were thinking a bit how would they react if the things they are writing are written aganst them. Oh well, at the end who cares, no one will ever change :D

AkademiQ
Jul 6th, 2005, 05:39 PM
Come on, everyone here still remembers that thing.
Some people (not only here, but some commentators too) still call Justine a cheater.

I definitely know of the fans who call Justine a cheater and other things, but I have yet to hear of one commentator to call Justine a cheater.

At Wimbledon JMac and Mary were speaking with the one commentator whose name I cannot remember and all that was primarily stated was if the roles were reversed and Serena had done what Justine had done there would have been a bigger stink over the situation. I found a lot more was made of Serena crying/being booed then Justine being called out.

When we talk about "The Hand", one know who we're talking about.
Justine only did raise her hand, and there's no proof she didn't put it down when Serena served. Moreover the point didn't go to Justine, it was a second serve for Serena.

It's good that this makes it okay.

And many times, I said here that I would have prefered Justine to tell that she raised her hand, but I understand her behaviour.

But this point with Venus is funny as hell.

I think the Venus stuff is amusing especially by the people who are going for a double standard or maybe a bit of hypocrisy being thrown Venus' way. This when in attempting to do so, they fall into that humorous valley of hypocrisy themselves. But if Venus had been asked if the ball was out and she basically stated she didn't care, or if Oracene had told the media that some of the girls in the locker room were happy at such an event and that if it were any other player than Lindsay that Venus would have owned up, then I'd be criticising Venus. Until then, yes it remains funny :D

Helen Lawson
Jul 6th, 2005, 05:41 PM
Who cares?

When you win an Oscar, you don't ask for a recount.

raquel
Jul 6th, 2005, 05:45 PM
Cyclops didn't make a noise, the linesman didn't call out, Gerry Armstrong didn't call out either - that's 3 seperate decisions saying the ball was in (wrongly maybe). If you're Venus down the other end of the court with not a perfect view of it, Cyclops doesn't make a noise and the umpire doesn't overrule it then you play on.

SJW
Jul 6th, 2005, 06:14 PM
It's just funny that *certain posters on this board* who were so quick to scream CHEAT!!!!! last year are the ones making excuses now. :D

like who? :)

*Karen*
Jul 6th, 2005, 06:17 PM
Theres absolutely no point in arguing about what an umpire said. They very rarely change their mind over a line call because a player argues about it.

Volcana
Jul 6th, 2005, 06:28 PM
Venus too knew the ball was out
a) How do you know Venus knew the ball was out? Seriously. How do you know that? The chalk came up from the service line, Venus is looking through the net, Cyclops didn't go off, no linesman called the ball out.

b) Venus virtually never says anything. Last year the umpire gave her opponent a point and she didn't say anything. You could see her expression change a couple times in the final when calls went against her, but she didn't say anything. She doesn't say anything. She leaves it to the chair umpire and the linespersons to call the lines.

c) I can't imagine Lindsay hugging a player she thinks deliberately stole a point from her. Lindsay herself said it best at the time. "if I did my job that badly I wouldn't be allowed to be out here." I suspect the chair umpire was caught not paying attention.

Anyway I expect that's why no one is making much of a deal out Venus' behaviour. No reasonable person expects a player to call the lines on the OTHER side of the net.

And on the whole, this wasn't nearly as bad as Mariana Alves or Ted Watts.

tennisbum79
Jul 6th, 2005, 06:44 PM
1) She is from the U.S. AND ...
2) she is black.

Criticising her would be racist ....
This is lazy reasoning at best.

Venus and Serena get criticized all the time. Some times justifiably so, other time unfairly so.

It is equally as lazy a reasoning as evoking political correctness as a defense all argument. Very often, once one utters that a proposition is politically correct or it is not politically correct to make an argument against, one does not have to try to search hard and construct a cogent argument supporting one’s disagreement.



Finally, once you make a strong argument, you should expect a strong and vigorous rebuttal. Calling all strong rebuttal political correctness is disingenuous.

StarDuvallGrant
Jul 6th, 2005, 06:48 PM
I think the Venus stuff is amusing especially by the people who are going for a double standard or maybe a bit of hypocrisy being thrown Venus' way. This when in attempting to do so, they fall into that humorous valley of hypocrisy themselves. But if Venus had been asked if the ball was out and she basically stated she didn't care, or if Oracene had told the media that some of the girls in the locker room were happy at such an event and that if it were any other player than Lindsay that Venus would have owned up, then I'd be criticising Venus. Until then, yes it remains funny :D

:yeah:

DevilishAttitude
Jul 6th, 2005, 06:53 PM
Double standards all round.

I remember the Jen/Serena incident on here. I was always a lurker who rarely came onto the board but after seeing the stupidity and complete :bs: some people *Mainly Williams fans* dished out I decided to look at the board more often and eventually joined.

It's funny really cos if that hadn't have happened I'd have probably never joined here :lol:

Anyway Venus was in the wrong but had no reason to say it's long. It's not her call to make. She did nothing wrong really.

I think it happened in a more important situation anyway. It was 6-4 4-4 15-0, when the US QF happened it was 2-6 6-4 1-0 40-40. We can all see Saturday's call was in a more important and potentially match destroying moment than the other one.

Anyway most Williams fans are probably jealous that Jen was superior to Serena last year :hearts:

Denise4925
Jul 6th, 2005, 06:58 PM
venus prolly thought, hey I deserve a point from last year:D ;) yeah..whatever...it didn't make or break the match, isn't that what we heard last year:)
:lol: Yeah, but Linds would say, "yeah she deserves a point from last year, but wait till she plays that bitch again, not me." :p

(Not that Sprem is a bitch, Sprem fans, it's just a figure of speech)

SJW
Jul 6th, 2005, 06:59 PM
It's funny really cos if that hadn't have happened I'd have probably never joined here :lol:

as if everyone didn't have enough reasons to wish that event never happened :)

Knizzle
Jul 6th, 2005, 06:59 PM
I think it happened in a more important situation anyway. It was 6-4 4-4 15-0, when the US QF happened it was 2-6 6-4 1-0 40-40. We can all see Saturday's call was in a more important and potentially match destroying moment than the other one.

Statements like this are why you should become a lurker once again. Some people weren't born to think and you, my friend, are one of them

Anyway most Williams fans are probably jealous that Jen was superior to Serena last year :hearts:

Further reinforcement of my statement above.

SJW
Jul 6th, 2005, 07:00 PM
Anyway most Williams fans are probably jealous that Jen was superior to Serena last year :hearts:

Serena's 2004 was better than Jens 2004. so there. :)

Calimero377
Jul 6th, 2005, 07:01 PM
Theres absolutely no point in arguing about what an umpire said. They very rarely change their mind over a line call because a player argues about it.

Nice try ...

If Venus had said to Armstrong "The ball was OUT!" that would have been it.
Second serve.

Denise4925
Jul 6th, 2005, 07:05 PM
Venus too knew the ball was out, but she just went to the other side as if her ball was in (and it made 30/00). She didn't hear "fault" and just went to the other side. :o (even before Davenport talked to the umpire)


How could she know the ball was out from the other side of the court? :confused: Especially as fast as the ball is going. That's what the lines judges are for. Besides, it shouldn't have made a difference in the outcome. At least that's what they say about a bad call against the sisters.

Denise4925
Jul 6th, 2005, 07:06 PM
Lindsay's chat to Armstrong was hilarious when she said 'If I did my job as bad as you I wouldn't be here'!!!lol
:lol: Yeah, that was funny. I said...good for you Lindsay. :lol:

Denise4925
Jul 6th, 2005, 08:34 PM
as if everyone didn't have enough reasons to wish that event never happened :)
:o :tape: :lol:

justine&coria
Jul 6th, 2005, 08:41 PM
How could she know the ball was out from the other side of the court? :confused: Especially as fast as the ball is going.
I'm just gonna say one thing : did you see the point ? :rolleyes:
Of course Venus saw the ball was out. And to the way she behaved, I even think she asked for a ball to make a second serve : she was gonna make a 2nd serve. But that's just my opinion.
Anyway, don't tell me Venus didn't see/feel the ball was out ! The ball wasn't long (one could understand that Venus wouldn't have seen it), but it was so left !!! (just in Venus' axis)

alexusjonesfan
Jul 6th, 2005, 09:00 PM
Come on, everyone here still remembers that thing.
Some people (not only here, but some commentators too) still call Justine a cheater. When we talk about "The Hand", one know who we're talking about.
Justine only did raise her hand, and there's no proof she didn't put it down when Serena served. Moreover the point didn't go to Justine, it was a second serve for Serena.
And many times, I said here that I would have prefered Justine to tell that she raised her hand, but I understand her behaviour.


Don't be ridiculous. Serena is so alert during her serve that if she sees her opponent's hand go up, she can correct it mid-serve and make the ball go into the net. Venus on the other hand doesn't even pay attention to where she hits the ball even if it happens to be right in front of her and wide by inches. They're different, is all :p

[/shitstirring]

Master Lu
Jul 6th, 2005, 09:01 PM
1) Venus isn't looking through the net at that time. She's looking just over the net.
2) Even if she's looking through the net the ball is wide, not long. It is fast, but she's not percieving a large portion of the speed because of the axis the ball was traveling on. One simply couldn't miss it beeing out by that big of a margin.
3) If she didn't see it, that would mean she wasn't paying attention to the ball at all, and considering her play, that's bull.
4) Can I prove any of this? Probably not beyond shadow of a doubt. But that's not the point. My point was that some, again some, people on the board are still extremely nasty to Karolina, while they dissmiss this. You can dissmiss this and chalk it up to the umpire, I actually do, but then you have to do the same to the last year's point. And there's also Justine's hand, and Jen's lines and...

Volcana
Jul 6th, 2005, 09:13 PM
Anyway, don't tell me Venus didn't see/feel the ball was out !Venus didn't see/feel the ball was out.:)
1) Venus isn't looking through the net at that time. She's looking just over the net.I'm the same height as Venus. I can't see the service line over the net from the baseline.
4) Can I prove any of this? Probably not beyond shadow of a doubt. But that's not the point. My point was that some, again some, people on the board are still extremely nasty to Karolina, while they dissmiss this. You can dissmiss this and chalk it up to the umpire, I actually do, but then you have to do the same to the last year's point. And there's also Justine's hand, and Jen's lines and...Sprem and Capriati and Henin-Hardenne are not analogous cases.

People being nasty to Sprem are just being, pardon the expression, stupid. She was 19 years old, playing one of the biggest stars in the sport and something seems wrong. Is Venus complaining? No. The chair umpire is acting like everything's fine. Sprem was nobody at that point. She did what almost anyone would. Deferred to her elders.

The Henin-Hardenne and Capriati incidents, OTOH, seemed more like dishonorable play.

Henin-Hardenne's coach came out and said that if it had been any other play, Henin-Hardenne would have admitted she held up her hand. Inother words, an admission of guilt. Anti-JH2 forces naturally jumped all over that.

Similarly, Capriati's answer of 'well I deserve to have some calls go my way', seemed admission of guilt. And of course, that match not only featured many bad calls, but also an apology from the tournament director, and a demotion for the chair umpire.

However, none of those individual calls determined the outcome of the match. Repeated bad calls did change how Serena played vs Jen, but that was the effect of so many.

Venus herself said she didn't lose to Sprem because of Ted Watts' mistake. She got outplayed.

Denise4925
Jul 6th, 2005, 09:20 PM
I'm just gonna say one thing : did you see the point ? :rolleyes:
Of course Venus saw the ball was out. And to the way she behaved, I even think she asked for a ball to make a second serve : she was gonna make a 2nd serve. But that's just my opinion.
Anyway, don't tell me Venus didn't see/feel the ball was out ! The ball wasn't long (one could understand that Venus wouldn't have seen it), but it was so left !!! (just in Venus' axis)
What difference does it make if I saw it or not? Do you play tennis? If you did, you'd know that it's very difficult to tell if a ball is in or out at the speeds the professionals are serving from the server's point of view. How do you know she was going to make a second serve? I didn't see all of that. I saw Lindsay dispute the call and a replay of the call. At the time the ball was served, it looked in to me, until they replayed it. Besides, you don't call your own balls in or out when serving. It's up to the opponent or the linesman. That's how the game is played.

Denise4925
Jul 6th, 2005, 09:21 PM
Don't be ridiculous. Serena is so alert during her serve that if she sees her opponent's hand go up, she can correct it mid-serve and make the ball go into the net. Venus on the other hand doesn't even pay attention to where she hits the ball even if it happens to be right in front of her and wide by inches. They're different, is all :p

[/shitstirring]
That's not true. :rolleyes:

Martian Jeza
Jul 6th, 2005, 09:28 PM
Because it's forbidden to talk in a negative way about the Sisters : that's simple :wavey:

Denise4925
Jul 6th, 2005, 09:31 PM
1) Venus isn't looking through the net at that time. She's looking just over the net.
2) Even if she's looking through the net the ball is wide, not long. It is fast, but she's not percieving a large portion of the speed because of the axis the ball was traveling on. One simply couldn't miss it beeing out by that big of a margin.
3) If she didn't see it, that would mean she wasn't paying attention to the ball at all, and considering her play, that's bull.
4) Can I prove any of this? Probably not beyond shadow of a doubt. But that's not the point. My point was that some, again some, people on the board are still extremely nasty to Karolina, while they dissmiss this. You can dissmiss this and chalk it up to the umpire, I actually do, but then you have to do the same to the last year's point. And there's also Justine's hand, and Jen's lines and...
Oh come on :rolleyes:
(1) Even if she's looking over the net, from her point of view you can't always tell if it's in or out.
(2) It IS fast, it's not in slow motion when it drops, so it's difficult to see where it drops.
(3) She can be paying attention and not see if it lands on the line or outside the box from her point of view across the net.
(4) You have to chalk it up to the linesman. That's who is responsible for calling the balls. The umpire cannot reverse something he didn't see, and should be taken to task for possibly not paying attention, or even if he were, maybe from his angle, he could not see it clearly.

You can't say the same for last year's point. Anyone on either side of the net can correct a point during play. It's proper tennis etiquette to do so. Regarding Justine's hand, Serena should have just served the ball down her throat whether she was ready or not, hand or no hand, if she's going to be that (pardon the pun) underhanded about it. Regarding last years USOpen, Jen had the opportunity to call it in or out, it's up to her or linesman, since she saw it and it was right in front of her, she could have said something, but obviously she chose not to. However, when serving in tennis, you do not call you own ball in or out. It's totally up to the opponent or the linesman.

faste5683
Jul 6th, 2005, 09:40 PM
What difference does it make if I saw it or not? Do you play tennis? If you did, you'd know that it's very difficult to tell if a ball is in or out at the speeds the professionals are serving from the server's point of view.

Sorry Dee, but that's incorrect. A good tennis player can "feel" whether a serve is in or out within a fraction of a second after striking the ball. Also, from the "server's point of view" it's very easy to see whether a serve is good or not, despite the speed. The pros have been doing this since they were rug-rats; they know exactly where the ball is going, for better or for worse. Look, it doesn't matter to me - Vee was gonna win anyway - but don't tell me that a champion player like Venus didn't see that ball way wide...it was that blatant.

:wavey:


:wavey:

darrinbaker00
Jul 6th, 2005, 09:51 PM
There seems to be a lot of revisionist history going on here, so let's look at some facts:

1. Television replays clearly showed that Justine Henin-Hardenne held up her hand to indicate she wasn't ready to receive serve. When asked about it by the chair umpire at the time, Justine lied and said she didn't.

2. The naked eye, as well as all television replays, clearly showed that Jennifer Capriati was (a) standing no more than five feet from the ball and (b) looking right at the ball when it landed in. The ball was correctly called good by the linesperson, but the chair umpire overruled. When asked about that call by reporters after the match, Jennifer lied and said she couldn't tell if the ball was good.

3. The naked eye, as well as all television replays, clearly showed that Venus Williams' first serve landed in the wrong service box. The linesperson incorrectly called the serve good, and the chair umpire did not overrule. To this day, as far as I know, Venus has never been publicly asked about that call (if she has, someone PLEASE post it).

If some of you still think Venus cheated and/or there is a double standard at work here, more power to you.

Denise4925
Jul 6th, 2005, 10:03 PM
Sorry Dee, but that's incorrect. A good tennis player can "feel" whether a serve is in or out within a fraction of a second after striking the ball. Also, from the "server's point of view" it's very easy to see whether a serve is good or not, despite the speed. The pros have been doing this since they were rug-rats; they know exactly where the ball is going, for better or for worse. Look, it doesn't matter to me - Vee was gonna win anyway - but don't tell me that a champion player like Venus didn't see that ball way wide...it was that blatant.

:wavey:


:wavey:
How do you know? :p Just kidding. ;)

Anyway, it still doesn't matter Ed, whether she saw it in or not, she's not supposed to call her serve in or out during play, correct??

HAIL-VENUS
Jul 6th, 2005, 10:04 PM
First of all, if I'm not mistaken, didn't Lindsay end up getting to 15-40 or 30-40 or deuce or something in this very game? It wasn't like she didn't have her chances to break Vee at that point. I do agree that the call was terrible. Hell, even I could see that it was out and I was watching from GA. LMAO. Anyway, I think Venus saw it wide as well and was about to serve from the same side again, but the umpire called the score for Venus, and she proceeded to the other side. Though I wish she had said something in Lindsay's defense, I can understand her possition. Afterall, she was coming out of a service motion at the time, and may not have been absolutely sure (just as the chair ump) that her serve was wide. I blame the linesman for not making this call. Now there should be no way in a blazing hott hell that he/she didn't see that ball wide right there in front of their faces. And I also have to give the leftover blame to the chair umpire because this is his damn job. To oversee the match. What in Heaven's name was he doing at the time that ball was struck. I guess he was wiping the strawberries and creme from his damn mouth while he should have been watching Vee's serve. This is what he gets paid for. So, Vee got a free point and he got a free check.

faste5683
Jul 6th, 2005, 10:05 PM
There seems to be a lot of revisionist history going on here, so let's look at some facts:

1. Television replays clearly showed that Justine Henin-Hardenne held up her hand to indicate she wasn't ready to receive serve. When asked about it by the chair umpire at the time, Justine lied and said she didn't.

:eek: You just "lied" twice.

Sigh. How many times has this been disproved? The umpire DID NOT ask Justine ANYTHING. HE COULDN'T, because it's against the WTA RULES! The umpire cannot ask a player anything during a match. Justine didn't "lie", because she wasn't asked a question.

Please don't perpetuate the myth, Darrin.

:wavey:

kiwifan
Jul 6th, 2005, 10:10 PM
Haters dig deep, for reasons to hate :haha:

I know guys who are better than the best women's players who think ever damn ball they hit is in if its within a foot of the line.

I haven't heard anyone state the Venus knew the ball was out and did anything deceptive with that knowledge.

so ::yawn:'s all around to the haters.

Go watch some old tapes, it might make you feel better. :devil:

darrinbaker00
Jul 6th, 2005, 10:14 PM
:eek: You just "lied" twice.

Sigh. How many times has this been disproved? The umpire DID NOT ask Justine ANYTHING. HE COULDN'T, because it's against the WTA RULES! The umpire cannot ask a player anything during a match. Justine didn't "lie", because she wasn't asked a question.

Please don't perpetuate the myth, Darrin.

:wavey:
This was not a WTA match, Ed. The International Tennis Federation has jurisdiction over the Grand Slam events, not the men's or women's tours. You know that. ;)

Diesel
Jul 6th, 2005, 10:14 PM
There seems to be a lot of revisionist history going on here, so let's look at some facts:

1. Television replays clearly showed that Justine Henin-Hardenne held up her hand to indicate she wasn't ready to receive serve. When asked about it by the chair umpire at the time, Justine lied and said she didn't.

2. The naked eye, as well as all television replays, clearly showed that Jennifer Capriati was (a) standing no more than five feet from the ball and (b) looking right at the ball when it landed in. The ball was correctly called good by the linesperson, but the chair umpire overruled. When asked about that call by reporters after the match, Jennifer lied and said she couldn't tell if the ball was good.

3. The naked eye, as well as all television replays, clearly showed that Venus Williams' first serve landed in the wrong service box. The linesperson incorrectly called the serve good, and the chair umpire did not overrule. To this day, as far as I know, Venus has never been publicly asked about that call (if she has, someone PLEASE post it).

If some of you still think Venus cheated and/or there is a double standard at work here, more power to you.

:worship:

faste5683
Jul 6th, 2005, 10:20 PM
This was not a WTA match, Ed. The International Tennis Federation has jurisdiction over the Grand Slam events, not the men's or women's tours. You know that. ;)

Same rule applies for the ITF. The chair umpire cannot ask a player anything which concerns a call.

:wavey:

HAIL-VENUS
Jul 6th, 2005, 10:20 PM
I thought Serena asked Justine if she held up her hand as if to say that she wasn't ready. The umpire in that match seemed to be lost as well. I agree with Denise on this one. Looking back, Serena should have just aced her little ass or served the ball right into her gut, then we would have no argument, at all, about that topic. But Justine did lie once she figured out that the chair umpire didn't see that she'd held her hand up to stop play. She manipulated her opponent on that one, but I bet Serena's gonna be more careful on that tip in the future.

GoDominique
Jul 6th, 2005, 10:25 PM
There seems to be a lot of revisionist history going on here, so let's look at some facts:

1. Television replays clearly showed that Justine Henin-Hardenne held up her hand to indicate she wasn't ready to receive serve. When asked about it by the chair umpire at the time, Justine lied and said she didn't.
Justine never said a single word. YOU are the one with revisionist history, imagining/inventing things that never happened. :)

Denise4925
Jul 6th, 2005, 10:28 PM
Well Knizzle, Rocketta, cartmancop and anyone else who said, maybe Venus didn't see whether the ball was in or out from her point of view, apparently if she didn't see it, she felt it was out. :p

Who knew tennis was for the blind too? :cool:

Dana Marcy
Jul 6th, 2005, 10:28 PM
What a surprise. The Williams fans' SLAVE is rather tame on this thread. Who woulda thunk it? :eek:

Paialii
Jul 6th, 2005, 10:31 PM
I think this topic has been well-replied on. The only thing I'd like to add, is the fact that folks, these aren't junior players playing. It's not as if the players will turn to each other and decide to replay a point because they're not sure of something. Rarely will you see a professional player conceive a point...VERY rarely.

Venus did nothing wrong, the linesperson made a bad call. This in no way decided the match or even that game. Not sure why this was brought up.

Denise4925
Jul 6th, 2005, 10:31 PM
What a surprise. The Williams fans' SLAVE is rather tame on this thread. Who woulda thunk it? :eek:
:lol:

jamatthews
Jul 6th, 2005, 10:59 PM
First of all, if I'm not mistaken, didn't Lindsay end up getting to 15-40 or 30-40 or deuce or something in this very game? It wasn't like she didn't have her chances to break Vee at that point.

I'm fairly certain Venus ended up serving it to love...even more amusingly the point before Venus got a lucky let cord to go 15-love up...

darrinbaker00
Jul 6th, 2005, 11:06 PM
Same rule applies for the ITF. The chair umpire cannot ask a player anything which concerns a call.

:wavey:
I'm not disputing you or the rulebook, Ed, but I have seen umpires ask players about calls, and I've also seen an umpire change a call at a player's request. Besides, I saw Justine shake her head at SOMETHING after Serena told the umpire she had her hand up. Was there a bug in her hair?

Denise4925
Jul 6th, 2005, 11:08 PM
I'm not disputing you or the rulebook, Ed, but I have seen umpires ask players about calls, and I've also seen an umpire change a call at a player's request. Besides, I saw Justine shake her head at SOMETHING after Serena told the umpire she had her hand up. Was there a bug in her hair?
:haha: :haha: :haha:

darrinbaker00
Jul 6th, 2005, 11:14 PM
Well Knizzle, Rocketta, cartmancop and anyone else who said, maybe Venus didn't see whether the ball was in or out from her point of view, apparently if she didn't see it, she felt it was out. :p

Who knew tennis was for the blind too? :cool:
Let's not kid ourselves, ladies and gentlemen. Venus had another ball in her hand and was standing in the ad court when Gerry Armstrong called 30-love, so she knew the serve was out. The fact of the matter is, Lindsay went on to serve for the match later in the set, so that blatantly bad call had no adverse effect on her mentally.

Bright Red
Jul 6th, 2005, 11:19 PM
...Sprem and Capriati and Henin-Hardenne are not analogous cases.

People being nasty to Sprem are just being, pardon the expression, stupid. She was 19 years old, playing one of the biggest stars in the sport and something seems wrong. Is Venus complaining? No. The chair umpire is acting like everything's fine. Sprem was nobody at that point. She did what almost anyone would. Deferred to her elders.

The Henin-Hardenne and Capriati incidents, OTOH, seemed more like dishonorable play.

Henin-Hardenne's coach came out and said that if it had been any other play, Henin-Hardenne would have admitted she held up her hand. Inother words, an admission of guilt. Anti-JH2 forces naturally jumped all over that...Venus herself said she didn't lose to Sprem because of Ted Watts' mistake. She got outplayed.

I couldn't have said it better. There are differences as you point out, and Sprem can't be called a cheat because even Venus didn't say anything!

I'd add if Venus saw the ball and didn't say anything, then yes, it would be poor sportsmanship. However, there's just too much doubt to accuse her, IMO, just as there's too much to accuse Sprem.

HAIL-VENUS
Jul 6th, 2005, 11:23 PM
Damn, you're gonna make me watch the match again just to see. Never the less, had Lindsay won, I doubt if we'd be having this debate over "who's to blame" for that call. It would definitely be a different story had that point decided the match, but it didn't. Lindsay served for the match on several different occassions, so that's why the media didn't jump all over the bad call. Venus certainly isn't to blame for the call. Who says that the chair ump would've overturned the call or decided that they should play the point again just because Venus agreed that the call was wide? He has to go from his own judgement, however wrong it may have been, but only he and the linesman should be to blame for that point.

Pureracket
Jul 6th, 2005, 11:27 PM
Double standards all round.

I remember the Jen/Serena incident on here. I was always a lurker who rarely came onto the board but after seeing the stupidity and complete :bs: some people *Mainly Williams fans* dished out I decided to look at the board more often and eventually joined.

It's funny really cos if that hadn't have happened I'd have probably never joined here :lol:

Anyway Venus was in the wrong but had no reason to say it's long. She did nothing wrong reallyIt's not her call to make..

I think it happened in a more important situation anyway. It was 6-4 4-4 15-0, when the US QF happened it was 2-6 6-4 1-0 40-40. We can all see Saturday's call was in a more important and potentially match destroying moment than the other one.

Anyway most Williams fans are probably jealous that Jen was superior to Serena last year :hearts:Umm. .. do YOU even know what you're talking about here? Seriously, do you?

Martian Jeza
Jul 6th, 2005, 11:32 PM
Umm. .. do YOU even know what you're talking about here? Seriously, do you?

Most of the time you don't know what you are talking about but if it's understandable for your RC friends : you are happy :wavey:

HAIL-VENUS
Jul 6th, 2005, 11:33 PM
Pure, he never has a valid argument. He's only here to terrorize the Royal Court. It's poster like him, Xan, Spiceboy and Julia68' who I believe, however discrete they may be, actually love Venus and Serena. It's the same :bs: every year.

moby
Jul 7th, 2005, 12:56 AM
This thread is gold.
So which fanbase was it that liked to toss the phrase "double standards" around? :tape:

Pureracket
Jul 7th, 2005, 01:00 AM
Most of the time you don't know what you are talking about but if it's understandable for your RC friends : you are happy :wavey:Martian,:wavey:

How's the therapy going?

moby
Jul 7th, 2005, 01:08 AM
Martian,:wavey:

How's the therapy going?How mature. :o

AkademiQ
Jul 7th, 2005, 01:09 AM
This thread is gold.
So which fanbase was it that liked to toss the phrase "double standards" around? :tape:

Double standards do apply here. In fact they stick.

HAIL-VENUS
Jul 7th, 2005, 01:22 AM
I'm going to say it, however disturbing it may be.....Venus would have to do some hellafied, outrageously, psychotic shit to turn her from Royalty, for me. Nothing short of shooting her opponent on court, where I can plainly see that she shot the bitch, and I'm talking about from the camera that was on Venus when she pulled the trigger, to the camera that was on her opponent when the bullet penetrated her body, will I be 100% against Venus in anything. Since my girl's an angel :angel:, you don't have to worry about this. So don't ever expect me to go against Venus about anything. Except her lack of being "Venus", that is.

Pureracket
Jul 7th, 2005, 07:06 AM
This thread is gold.
So which fanbase was it that liked to toss the phrase "double standards" around? :tape:Now, THAT'S mature.

DomenicDemaria
Jul 7th, 2005, 07:18 AM
I don't think you should blame Venus. It's not her fault the umpire and linesman made a mistake. Its the same situation as with Capriati and Sprem. It's not their fault the umpire and linesmen made mistakes (calling wrong score or making bad calls).

Veritas
Jul 7th, 2005, 07:20 AM
B/c Venus never makes a fuse about lines calls. She has gotten plenty of bad calls and she knows that her only job is to play tennis not to call lines. Only time Ive seen Venus get "upset" about calls are on clay when she can clearly see them.

Exactly. Besides the 1998 QF match against Jana Novotna, I've never seen Venus make a fuss about line calls. All she does is either pause for a moment, then look away, or put her hands on her hips and look a bit flustered if the call was especially bad. Other than that, I don't think she's ever argued openly about them.

justine&coria
Jul 7th, 2005, 09:47 AM
I do not blame Venus. She didn't do anything wrong. But, neither did she have the best behaviour . But, it's ok, I understand her reaction.

Anyway, how can people say she didn't see the ball was out ! :eek: I really don't understand that. Did those people even see the point?
And to those who think that, do you really think that if Venus saw the ball was out, she would have told the Umpire?

VeraNuVirgosFan
Jul 7th, 2005, 10:49 AM
Anyway, how can people say she didn't see the ball was out !
And how can people say she saw the ball was out???

VeraNuVirgosFan
Jul 7th, 2005, 10:53 AM
But, neither did she have the best behaviour.
And who do you think "has the best behaviour" on the tour then?

Master Lu
Jul 7th, 2005, 11:32 AM
(4) You have to chalk it up to the linesman. That's who is responsible for calling the balls. The umpire cannot reverse something he didn't see, and should be taken to task for possibly not paying attention, or even if he were, maybe from his angle, he could not see it clearly.


I wrote umpire, but meant the judges in general. Still, neither the linesman nor the umpire have any real excuse, apart from being human, which I guess is excuse enough. Both were in very good positions to see the ball wide. Davenport wasn't in front of the linesman when the ball hit the court, and the umpire also had a clear view.

As for the she saw it/she didn't see it argument, it's just the line in question that's bugging me. It's the center line where even if I dive down after a serve more then usual and end up having the service line obscured by the top of the net (which possibly happened to Venus - the obscuring part, I know I don't have the same service action as she does), I can still see the ball out, because I can see the center line clearly through the net, and the ball a moment after it bounces over the top of the net. The human visual perception system is wired in a way to interpolate the peices it's missing, and it does a very good job of it (too good a job sometimes).

Oh well, just as 'there's no way in hell Venus hasn't seen the ball' in my opinion, there's no way in hell it could be proven, and there's no way in hell it ultimately matters. The ball was out, and Davenport was rattled, but she, apparently, calmed down and still lost at the end. Venus definately deserved her win. She also wouldn't deserve any nasty comments about the whole affair, and she's not getting any, unlike Karolina. Saying "Venus should have said something", or "I hoped she'd say something" doesn't even come close to saying "I'm sooo glad the cheeting b*tch lost and is playing like sh*t she is" which still happens.

Experimentee
Jul 7th, 2005, 12:20 PM
Players dont overrule calls on the opponents side of the court. Its too far away to be sure that they are correct, and Venus doesnt pay attention to those things anyway, like we saw last year. She normally just follows the umpire's decision, whether its in her favour or not.
Its different if the ball was on the baseline right under her feet, that you can be sure of, but not when its so far away.

~ The Leopard ~
Jul 7th, 2005, 12:55 PM
The thing is, Venus probably would have won that game anyway. Yes, it was clearly out. Yes, Venus almost certainly knew this. Yes, it might have affected the outcome at the time for all the players could know, and yes it shows that every player is prepared to take advantage of an unfairly gained point, even Venus, who is as nice a person as any of them.

But it's not worth making a fuss over because:

(1) These things never are. Shit happens to everyone, and everyone does this when it's their opponent's turn. i.e. everyone seems willing to grab the free advantage (even though I wish it were not the case; I'd have loved Vee if she'd conceded the point).

(2) Once the match was over, it was clear that this particular point did not affect the outcome. In the end, Venus won the match fair and square.

Martian Willow
Jul 7th, 2005, 01:04 PM
Why are people trying to defend Venus when the whole point of this thread is that nobody is accusing her of doing anything wrong? :scratch:

Paneru
Jul 7th, 2005, 01:07 PM
Why are people trying to defend Venus when the whole point of this thread is that nobody is accusing her of doing anything wrong? :scratch:

Yeah, whatever!

Martian Willow
Jul 7th, 2005, 01:09 PM
Yeah, whatever!

You can't help but agree. :)

V-MAC
Jul 7th, 2005, 01:33 PM
I'm just gonna say one thing : did you see the point ? :rolleyes:
Of course Venus saw the ball was out. And to the way she behaved, I even think she asked for a ball to make a second serve : she was gonna make a 2nd serve. But that's just my opinion.
Anyway, don't tell me Venus didn't see/feel the ball was out ! The ball wasn't long (one could understand that Venus wouldn't have seen it), but it was so left !!! (just in Venus' axis)

Just out of interest, in other situations like this, what female players HAVE corrected a call that was first in their favour?? I would think hardly anyone so if Lindsay,Serena,Kim ( definitely Jen :devil: ) etc.. were all in Vee's shoes at that point, they would have done the exact same thing and carried on with the next point. I think the men though would show more sportsmanship, in fact, I remember a player not too long ago who corrected a call on a match point that was against him so he ended up handing the match to his opponent on a plate :eek: The men act way more honourable anyway when it comes to dodgy calls or non-calls, the female players just seem to be more ruthless :devil:

~ The Leopard ~
Jul 7th, 2005, 02:03 PM
I think the men though would show more sportsmanship, in fact, I remember a player not too long ago who corrected a call on a match point that was against him so he ended up handing the match to his opponent on a plate :eek: The men act way more honourable anyway when it comes to dodgy calls or non-calls, the female players just seem to be more ruthless :devil:

I was thinking this, too. I didn't want to say anything coz I can't back it up with clear examples ... and I don't want to be accused of being sexist. :eek: But I do have the same impression.

DevilishAttitude
Jul 7th, 2005, 02:43 PM
Serena's 2004 was better than Jens 2004. so there. :)

I didn't mean that. I meant in there H2H in 2004 ;) :)

Umm. .. do YOU even know what you're talking about here? Seriously, do you?

Yes. Of course I do. Venus was in the wrong. But it's not her duty to call the points.

harloo
Jul 7th, 2005, 03:06 PM
Honestly, how does the Wimbledon final this year even compare to those other controversial matches? I am sorry but some of you are grasping at straws for no apparent reason. Pretty predictable from a certain group of posters. I knew once that point became questionable during that match some paranoid poster was going to make a post about it.:lol:

TeamUSA#1
Jul 7th, 2005, 03:13 PM
It was a fair question to ask, since some posters are displaying their hypocrispy here-- condeeming some players for the same thing they are excusing for other players...


I dont think the players are to blame for bad calls or scoring mishaps....

the part about this thread that is sick is how some can condem one player but excuse another for THE SAME THING!!

DA FOREHAND
Jul 7th, 2005, 03:42 PM
No, no - sorry I wasn't clear. It wasn't a match point. My point was just that if Davenport had been awarded that point things could have panned out differently, as she ultimately needed one more point to win at one stage.


I was a little disappointed that Venus didn't say anything. She was awarded an ace, I don't think it changed the outcome of the match.


Had that ball been ruled a fault, the score would have remaine 15-love, and Venus would have delivered a second serve.

DA FOREHAND
Jul 7th, 2005, 03:46 PM
Just out of interest, in other situations like this, what female players HAVE corrected a call that was first in their favour?? I would think hardly anyone so if Lindsay,Serena,Kim ( definitely Jen :devil: ) etc.. were all in Vee's shoes at that point, they would have done the exact same thing and carried on with the next point. I think the men though would show more sportsmanship, in fact, I remember a player not too long ago who corrected a call on a match point that was against him so he ended up handing the match to his opponent on a plate :eek: The men act way more honourable anyway when it comes to dodgy calls or non-calls, the female players just seem to be more ruthless :devil:


What others would do is of no importance. It's will you do the right thing under all circumstances

Denise4925
Jul 7th, 2005, 07:28 PM
Let's not kid ourselves, ladies and gentlemen. Venus had another ball in her hand and was standing in the ad court when Gerry Armstrong called 30-love, so she knew the serve was out. The fact of the matter is, Lindsay went on to serve for the match later in the set, so that blatantly bad call had no adverse effect on her mentally.
Well, to be honest, I didn't see that she had another ball in her hand. They just kept showing the replay of the ball and Lindsay arguing with the umpire.

Denise4925
Jul 7th, 2005, 07:41 PM
I was a little disappointed that Venus didn't say anything. She was awarded an ace, I don't think it changed the outcome of the match.


Had that ball been ruled a fault, the score would have remaine 15-love, and Venus would have delivered a second serve.
I've never heard of making calls on your own serves, so why would she say anything?

DA FOREHAND
Jul 7th, 2005, 07:57 PM
I've never heard of making calls on your own serves, so why would she say anything?
I've seen Venus make a call on her own serve, got it on tape I belive her opponent was Hingis, the chair overruled as Venus was walking to the changeover.

Denise4925
Jul 7th, 2005, 07:58 PM
I've seen Venus make a call on her own serve, got it on tape I belive her opponent was Hingis, the chair overruled as Venus was walking to the changeover.
So what happened in that instance?

DA FOREHAND
Jul 7th, 2005, 08:10 PM
So what happened in that instance?
If memory serves me correctly it was Wimbledon 00 her first win over Hingis in a slam. It was overturned from a fault to an ace Venus won that game and of course went on to win the match.

WF4EVER
Jul 7th, 2005, 09:27 PM
I wasn't sure whether she saw that the ball was out or not, but in any event a mature Venus has never been known to fuss about line calls. She has said in the past that it's the linesperson's job to call the lines and even when Ted Watts robbed her blatantly by giving Sprem a point she hadn't even played for she said nothing. We all saw the ball was out as did Davy but she would have because of her position. Venus was on the other side of the net.

I heard people blaming the chair umpire but what happened to the linesperson? I did not hear an 'out' call and perhaps that's why Gerry just called the score.

I believe that Venus would have corrected a call if it had been made directly in front of her no matter whom it favoured.

Apart from that, some people are saying it was an important point because Davy would've been 30-0 on Vee's serve. The point was beaten like a dead horse last year that Venus had enough opportunities to save herself in last year's match versus Sprem despite that bad call. Does the same not apply to Lindsay who served for the match in the seocnd set, broke first in the third, lost match point at 5-4 30-40, had numerous games at 30 and deuce on Vee's serve during the third set? How much difference would that point have made? Well, I suppose as much as it made last year when Sprem won.

AT least I am glad it was a bad call and not a blatant robbery like Vee suffered at the hands of Ted Watts.

WF4EVER
Jul 7th, 2005, 09:40 PM
What I've always found remarkable about the umpiring is that umpires never accept when you say an opponents ball is out but they always accept when you say it's good. If they can accept me giving my opponent a point then why not give me the same benefit if I say their ball was out.

I think umpires and linesmen should make the calls no matter what the player says. Yes, tons of bad calls are made but look for a technological solution if you're not going to believe the players consistently.

Even if Venus might have known the ball was out Lindsay had already questioned it so it had not gone uncontested. The umpire must have stuck with it because he had not heard an out call by the linesperson.

This is not at all like what happened to Serena at the USO. However I woul dlike to hear Venus questioned about this call because if she denied it or gave a bullshit response like Capriati did I'd be very disappointed. I've seen Venus play and walk off with whatever call that has been made whether it benefitted her or not. SHe has obviously decided to let them do their job without any interference from her.

Justeenium
Jul 7th, 2005, 10:11 PM
She was on the other side of the court, you definitely shouldn't say your own ball was out from the other side of the court if you're not sure. That's like an ump overuling the line furthest from him or her.

:rolleyes: I would agree with you if it long or not long was the question. But it was wide or not and Venus should have no trouble seeing if the ball was wide from her side of the court.

Venus isn't an umpire, she's not required to give Davenport the second serve so I see nothing wrong.

But the thread starter is correct, the scenario above applied to another famous player that many Venus fans dubbed "cheater" :rolleyes:

mykarma
Jul 7th, 2005, 10:14 PM
She was on the other side of the court, you definitely shouldn't say your own ball was out from the other side of the court if you're not sure. That's like an ump overuling the line furthest from him or her.
I agee with you. The talking heads said the same thing.

mykarma
Jul 7th, 2005, 10:41 PM
Why are people trying to defend Venus when the whole point of this thread is that nobody is accusing her of doing anything wrong? :scratch::confused:

Dawn Marie
Jul 7th, 2005, 11:24 PM
Omg and again.


Venus has class behavior on the court. Jen acts like an ass alot of times and makes a huge do do about every single line call.


Jen has bad behavior on the court and Venus doesn't. The call was so bad and Jen should have said something the ball was right in front of her. Oh well Justine beat her down for my revenge at least. Actually I was pissed at the horrible umpiring and Jen's nasty remark.

I just can't see how one can compare the two calls. I mean my gosh.

Amorc
Jul 8th, 2005, 04:00 AM
Venus obviously did nothing wrong, no doubt she thought the serve was out but could she be 100% sure? How stupid would she look if she thought it was out and said so to the umpire only to disover later that the serve was actually good? Exactly the same applies to Capriati last year.
Again V&S are blameless but the vast majority of their fans are once more shown to be blatant hypocritical tards.

Denise4925
Jul 8th, 2005, 04:10 AM
Venus obviously did nothing wrong, no doubt she thought the serve was out but could she be 100% sure? How stupid would she look if she thought it was out and said so to the umpire only to disover later that the serve was actually good? Exactly the same applies to Capriati last year.
Again V&S are blameless but the vast majority of their fans are once more shown to be blatant hypocritical tards.
No more hypocritical than any other fan base or poster on this board.

Venus Forever
Jul 8th, 2005, 04:15 AM
Venus obviously did nothing wrong, no doubt she thought the serve was out but could she be 100% sure? How stupid would she look if she thought it was out and said so to the umpire only to disover later that the serve was actually good? Exactly the same applies to Capriati last year.
Again V&S are blameless but the vast majority of their fans are once more shown to be blatant hypocritical tards.
I agree with this completely.

She probably did think the ball was out, but when they called it good, she probably assumed she must have saw it wrong. It's just like the tie-break last year, she thought she knew the correct score (which she did), but figured she must have lost count, and just went with what the umpire said.

With all said and done, we DON'T know what was going through Venus' mind. We DON'T know what Jennifer was thinking on the court. It's trivial to bas an opinion on the situation when we don't know the full story and what's going on in the mind of the person we're blaming.

Amorc
Jul 8th, 2005, 04:49 AM
No more hypocritical than any other fan base or poster on this board.

Cant disagree with that :)

Denise4925
Jul 8th, 2005, 05:04 AM
I agree with this completely.

She probably did think the ball was out, but when they called it good, she probably assumed she must have saw it wrong. It's just like the tie-break last year, she thought she knew the correct score (which she did), but figured she must have lost count, and just went with what the umpire said.

With all said and done, we DON'T know what was going through Venus' mind. We DON'T know what Jennifer was thinking on the court. It's trivial to bas an opinion on the situation when we don't know the full story and what's going on in the mind of the person we're blaming.
Oh, I know what Jennifer was thinking on the court. :devil:

Master Lu
Jul 8th, 2005, 01:10 PM
lol how the color changes when you touch a wasp nest. :)
*goes back to his merry lurking*

mykarma
Jul 9th, 2005, 01:47 PM
lol how the color changes when you touch a wasp nest. :)
*goes back to his merry lurking*
After watching the match on ESPN Classic last night, I really don't think Venus could see if the ball was in or out. If there was any doubt that Venus saw that the ball was out, the talking heads would have been blasting it all over the television. Especially since Venus kept the women announcers so quiet. :lol:

Calimero377
Jul 9th, 2005, 01:58 PM
After watching the match on ESPN Classic last night, I really don't think Venus could see if the ball was in or out. If there was any doubt that Venus saw that the ball was out, the talking heads would have been blasting it all over the television. Especially since Venus kept the women announcers so quiet. :lol:


You obviously don't play tennis.

When you serve from the ad side and the ball is about a foot to the left from the box you must be blind not to see that.
Venus saw it.
To deny that is retarded.

A classy player would have admitted it. Obviously Venus thought of the Sprem incident last year and decided to be smart instead.

CoolDude7
Jul 9th, 2005, 02:06 PM
well it is over now, Venus won

raquel
Jul 9th, 2005, 02:09 PM
A classy player would have admitted it.
Cali how many times have you seen a player go to the umpire and say the call was wrong and lets replay the point? Specific incidents of classy players who always ask for a replay? It doesn't happen too often. If every player who saw a ball in instead of out asked for a replay it would be happening once or twice a match and that just doesn't happen.

bis2806
Jul 9th, 2005, 02:19 PM
I could tell that Venus knows that her serve was out. At that point, the same thing went through my mind Why the hell wouldn't she just admit it was out? However, the machine didn't beep, and it was for this stupid reason that the umpire didn't overrule. People make mistakes but so can machines - and this was demonstrated in this very match. It's a shame.

CoolDude7
Jul 9th, 2005, 02:21 PM
I could tell that Venus knows that her serve was out. At that point, the same thing went through my mind Why the hell wouldn't she just admit it was out? However, the machine didn't beep, and it was for this stupid reason that the umpire didn't overrule. People make mistakes but so can machines - and this was demonstrated in this very match. It's a shame.

OMG i love that pic of lindz in your avatar awww!

Calimero377
Jul 9th, 2005, 02:26 PM
Cali how many times have you seen a player go to the umpire and say the call was wrong and lets replay the point? Specific incidents of classy players who always ask for a replay? It doesn't happen too often. If every player who saw a ball in instead of out asked for a replay it would be happening once or twice a match and that just doesn't happen.


Most of the time the calls are controversial because the ball was only narrowly out/in. Or the circumstances don't allow the other player to really be sure that she has been given an unfair point. For example when your opponent hits the ball right to you baseline it can very difficult to decide for you whether was is in or out. Because of the angle and the trajectory.
But unlike the chair umpire Davenport AND Venus had a clear sight of the controversial ball. It was about a foot out (to the left!) and BOTH saw it.

Venus should have admitted it ....

Calimero377
Jul 9th, 2005, 02:28 PM
I could tell that Venus knows that her serve was out. At that point, the same thing went through my mind Why the hell wouldn't she just admit it was out? However, the machine didn't beep, and it was for this stupid reason that the umpire didn't overrule. People make mistakes but so can machines - and this was demonstrated in this very match. It's a shame.


Why should Cyclops have beeped?
The ball wasn't long.

raquel
Jul 9th, 2005, 02:30 PM
But unlike the chair umpire Davenport AND Venus had a clear sight of the controversial ball. It was about a foot out (to the left!) and BOTH saw it.

Venus should have admitted it ....
Wasn't clear to the umpire? Look at the height he is at - he had a good view. He just didn't want to overrule the machine which was stupid. If the umpire doesn't have a clear view of that ball in the middle of the court then what's the point of an umpire ever being there?

Calimero377
Jul 9th, 2005, 02:38 PM
Wasn't clear to the umpire? Look at the height he is at - he had a good view. He just didn't want to overrule the machine which was stupid. If the umpire doesn't have a clear view of that ball in the middle of the court then what's the point of an umpire ever being there?


I knew it - you don't play tennis.

Venus and Lindsay had a far better angle. It is 10 times easier to see whether a ball is 30 cm more to the left or more to the right (players' perspecitve in this particular case) or whether it is 30 cm more away or not (umpire's perspective in this particular case).

And why was the machine stupid?
This machine is only there to detect a serve being too LONG.
Venus' serve wasn't too long. It hit the wrong service box though. Machine can't see that.

:wavey:
(And I thought ASV fans are intelligent .... )

raquel
Jul 9th, 2005, 02:49 PM
I knew it - you don't play tennis.

Venus and Lindsay had a far better angle. It is 10 times easier to see whether a ball is 30 cm more to the left or more to the right (players' perspecitve in this particular case) or whether it is 30 cm more away or not (umpire's perspective in this particular case).

And why was the machine stupid?
This machine is only there to detect a serve being too LONG.
Venus' serve wasn't too long. It hit the wrong service box though. Machine can't see that.

I didn't mean the machine was stupid. I said the umpire didn't want to overrule the machine's no call which was stupid on his part if that was his reason. It's obvious that Venus and Lindsay have a great view of the court as they are on it but the umpire is seated there so that he has a view of the whole court. Umpires overrule quite often on all parts of the court. So what's the rule? The umpire can only overrule on balls which are OK from his perspective. Anything beyond the halfway line of the court is out of the umpire's perspective? Doesn't always work that way.

The linesman didn't call it out either and he was only a few feet behind Lindsay so he had a pretty good view on court level.

At the end of the day it's irrelevant to the match result. Lindsay went on to break serve in that set and served for the match so the call didn't affect her level of play. Venus was just too good in the 5-6 game and the tiebreak.

:wavey:
(And I thought ASV fans are intelligent .... )
:lol:

I know you don't really think I'm stupid Cali ;) :p

Cybelle Darkholme
Jul 9th, 2005, 02:52 PM
If memory serves me correctly it was Wimbledon 00 her first win over Hingis in a slam. It was overturned from a fault to an ace Venus won that game and of course went on to win the match.HIngis also walked to her chair and so the umpire overruled.


Venus didnt do anything wrong. How do you know she didnt think she had it in? Did she speak about the point? Then this whole thread is really moot. Jennifer actually spoke about the point and knew the ball was out. Did Venus do this? No.

VeraNuVirgosFan
Jul 9th, 2005, 03:18 PM
well it is over now, Venus won
Yes, it's over. Get over it!

However, our celebrations of her 3rd Wimbledon title isn't over yet. Keep it going!!

Larrybidd
Jul 9th, 2005, 05:13 PM
Venus obviously did nothing wrong, no doubt she thought the serve was out but could she be 100% sure? How stupid would she look if she thought it was out and said so to the umpire only to disover later that the serve was actually good? Exactly the same applies to Capriati last year.
Again V&S are blameless but the vast majority of their fans are once more shown to be blatant hypocritical tards.

Hypocritical? No, simply unwilling to concede moral equivilence between Venus failing to concede a call that was on the OTHER SIDE OF THE COURT FROM HER. To the idiot that says it is virtually impossible for venus to not have been sure her serve was out, i say if the linesman who job it was to make the call missed it, than Venus coulda missed it. I have seem players concede line calls where the ball in question is on his/her own baseline. Roddick did that recently, and went on to loose the math. BUT that was on clay. All Roddick did was save the referee from coming down from the chair to check the mark. No big deal , happens all the time. But Venus failing to cocede something that happend on the other side of the net. Not even close ro unsportsmanlike.

Now, Sprem was also blameless in her incident last year. I found her explaination perfectly sensible. Sprem thought there was something wrong with the score, but was confused. And thought she could have been the one mistaken. Add to that the fact that her opponent didn't question it. Not Sprem's fault. Anyone who says she was it full of it. Richard Williams called it right.

Cappy takes advantage of a seres of bad line calls in her favor v. Serena. Not Cappy's respnsibility. Bad calls happen for and against all the time. they are judgement calls tha occur in every sport. And frankly when it comes to line calls, Players are as likely to get it wrong as officials. How many times do players argue line calls where shot spot shows them to be all wrong? Any players opinon on a line call is just that - an opinion - and not necesarrily fact.

Now, the true incident of unsportmanlike behavior, is JuJu Henin v. Serena at the FO. And the difference in the behavior is simply that of someone who witnesses a crime (ie. accepting the benifit of what appears to be a bad line call) and actually purpetrating a crime. It was JuJu's own bahavior that cased the let - no judgement was required on henin's part as to what actually happend. Once Serena complained about her distracting hand gesture on her serve. Henin should have given her the let. Extremely poor sportmanship. Even har coach said its something she wounldn't normally de. I will think of that whenever i see Henin play, and so will Serena.

Calimero377
Jul 9th, 2005, 05:20 PM
Hypocritical? No, simply unwilling to concede moral equivilence between Venus failing to concede a call that was on the OTHER SIDE OF THE COURT FROM HER. To the idiot that says it is virtually impossible for venus to not have been sure her serve was out, i say if the linesman who job it was to make the call missed it, than Venus coulda missed it. I have seem players concede line calls where the ball in question is on his/her own baseline. Roddick did that recently, and went on to loose the math. BUT that was on clay. All Roddick did was save the referee from coming down from the chair to check the mark. No big deal , happens all the time. But Venus failing to cocede something that happend on the other side of the net. Not even close ro unsportsmanlike.

Now, Sprem was also blameless in her incident last year. I found her explaination perfectly sensible. Sprem thought there was something wrong with the score, but was confused. And thought she could have been the one mistaken. Add to that the fact that her opponent didn't question it. Not Sprem's fault. Anyone who says she was it full of it. Richard Williams called it right.

Cappy takes advantage of a seres of bad line calls in her favor v. Serena. Not Cappy's respnsibility. Bad calls happen for and against all the time. they are judgement calls tha occur in every sport. And frankly when it comes to line calls, Players are as likely to get it wrong as officials. How many times do players argue line calls where shot spot shows them to be all wrong? Any players opinon on a line call is just that - an opinion - and not necesarrily fact.

Now, the true incident of unsportmanlike behavior, is JuJu Henin v. Serena at the FO. And the difference in the behavior is simply that ...


... Enna is European and a threat to U.S. supremacy in women's tennis.

Timariot
Jul 9th, 2005, 06:02 PM
This issue is such a dead horse that not only it's dead, it's been buried, exhumed, sold to sausage factory, processed, sold and consumed.

Players are not required to make their calls at top pro level, and should not be expected to do so. If they correct a call, fine, but if they choose to play by the rules and let umpire and linesmen do the calls, whether they be correct or not, they are entitled to do so and nobody has any say to that. As Cthulhu is my witness, if I had been for example in same situation as Henin in that RG semi, I'd take every friggin advantage I could possibly get within the rules, if some people don't like it, fuck them.

McEnroe once reminisced a story that when he was new in the Tour, he once conceded a point to his opponent who had a wrong call against him; after the match his opponent came to him and said something like "Sonny, this is the pros now, you don't give points away".

bis2806
Jul 9th, 2005, 06:05 PM
Why should Cyclops have beeped?
The ball wasn't long.

Then the linesman and umpire were both blind.

Justeenium
Jul 9th, 2005, 06:12 PM
Hypocritical? No, simply unwilling to concede moral equivilence between Venus failing to concede a call that was on the OTHER SIDE OF THE COURT FROM HER. To the idiot that says it is virtually impossible for venus to not have been sure her serve was out, i say if the linesman who job it was to make the call missed it, than Venus coulda missed it. I have seem players concede line calls where the ball in question is on his/her own baseline. Roddick did that recently, and went on to loose the math. BUT that was on clay. All Roddick did was save the referee from coming down from the chair to check the mark. No big deal , happens all the time. But Venus failing to cocede something that happend on the other side of the net. Not even close ro unsportsmanlike.

Now, Sprem was also blameless in her incident last year. I found her explaination perfectly sensible. Sprem thought there was something wrong with the score, but was confused. And thought she could have been the one mistaken. Add to that the fact that her opponent didn't question it. Not Sprem's fault. Anyone who says she was it full of it. Richard Williams called it right.

Cappy takes advantage of a seres of bad line calls in her favor v. Serena. Not Cappy's respnsibility. Bad calls happen for and against all the time. they are judgement calls tha occur in every sport. And frankly when it comes to line calls, Players are as likely to get it wrong as officials. How many times do players argue line calls where shot spot shows them to be all wrong? Any players opinon on a line call is just that - an opinion - and not necesarrily fact.

Now, the true incident of unsportmanlike behavior, is JuJu Henin v. Serena at the FO. And the difference in the behavior is simply that of someone who witnesses a crime (ie. accepting the benifit of what appears to be a bad line call) and actually purpetrating a crime. It was JuJu's own bahavior that cased the let - no judgement was required on henin's part as to what actually happend. Once Serena complained about her distracting hand gesture on her serve. Henin should have given her the let. Extremely poor sportmanship. Even har coach said its something she wounldn't normally de. I will think of that whenever i see Henin play, and so will Serena.


Take your head out of your ass you inbred Williams fan. How many times do we have to discuss this, you and any other Serena fan and/or Henin hater are idiots.

VeeReeDavJCap81
Jul 9th, 2005, 06:15 PM
Take your head out of your ass you inbred Williams fan. How many times do we have to discuss this, you and any other Serena fan and/or Henin hater are idiots.

Aren't you the one from Texas?

Calimero377
Jul 9th, 2005, 06:16 PM
Then the linesman and umpire were both blind.


The linesman's view was blocked by Davenport's body.
The umpire had a difficult perspective - his error is excusable.
Things like that happen.
Venus could have cleared it.
She chose not to do it.
Not very classy but understandable.

VeeReeDavJCap81
Jul 9th, 2005, 06:24 PM
The linesman's view was blocked by Davenport's body.
The umpire had a difficult perspective - his error is excusable.
Things like that happen.
Venus could have cleared it.
She chose not to do it.
Not very classy but understandable.

Venus has more class in her pinky nail than Steffi had in her whole body.

Calimero377
Jul 9th, 2005, 06:34 PM
Venus has more class in her pinky nail than Steffi had in her whole body.


When Graf retired the word "class" was all around in the newspaper articles ....

"Throughout her tennis career, Steffi exhibited extended excellence through many a crisis, showing CLASS and dignity ..."

"And more than anyone this side of Chris Evert, Graf did her spanking with a dignity and CLASS that Venus Williams, Martina Hingis, Monica Seles and Martina Navratilova would beg to have. ..."

"'She had an unbelievable career, and she did it with a lot of CLASS,' said Pete Sampras."

"And with all the CLASS and professionalism of a veteran champion, Miss Steffi Graf won her sixth* and final French Open title, out-poising her* younger, brasher, and more fragile opponent for* the Grand Slam championship. ..."

"Steffi Graf exuded CLASS, character, charisma, consistency and convincing craft to reach the pinnacle."

"One-on-one, Graf has surpassed all the greats. The debate for anyone else is almost impossible to argue now after Graf rallied to beat Hingis when the tempestuous, self-absorbed Swiss teenager had a chance to serve out the match. It was a triumph of CLASS over crass. Poise over petulance. Grace over gross. Mind over mine. ..."

"And later that week, in keeping with the CLASS act that she always is, Steffi would place a half-page ad in the French newspaper, thanking the fans for their many years of support. The newspaper, so touched by her gesture, gave her the space for free - a fitting tribute to such a great lady, and a champion's champion. ... "


What do you think: when Venus retires, will they repeat those hymns?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

VeeReeDavJCap81
Jul 9th, 2005, 06:38 PM
When Graf retired the word "class" was all around in the newspaper articles ....

"Throughout her tennis career, Steffi exhibited extended excellence through many a crisis, showing CLASS and dignity ..."

"And more than anyone this side of Chris Evert, Graf did her spanking with a dignity and CLASS that Venus Williams, Martina Hingis, Monica Seles and Martina Navratilova would beg to have. ..."

"'She had an unbelievable career, and she did it with a lot of CLASS,' said Pete Sampras."

"And with all the CLASS and professionalism of a veteran champion, Miss Steffi Graf won her sixth* and final French Open title, out-poising her* younger, brasher, and more fragile opponent for* the Grand Slam championship. ..."

"Steffi Graf exuded CLASS, character, charisma, consistency and convincing craft to reach the pinnacle."

"One-on-one, Graf has surpassed all the greats. The debate for anyone else is almost impossible to argue now after Graf rallied to beat Hingis when the tempestuous, self-absorbed Swiss teenager had a chance to serve out the match. It was a triumph of CLASS over crass. Poise over petulance. Grace over gross. Mind over mine. ..."

"And later that week, in keeping with the CLASS act that she always is, Steffi would place a half-page ad in the French newspaper, thanking the fans for their many years of support. The newspaper, so touched by her gesture, gave her the space for free - a fitting tribute to such a great lady, and a champion's champion. ... "


What do you think: when Venus retires, will they repeat those hymns?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Yup, even more so. You're seriously smoking that sticky-icky if you think Steffi has/had more class than Venus.

Cybelle Darkholme
Jul 9th, 2005, 07:26 PM
When Graf retired the word "class" was all around in the newspaper articles ....

"Throughout her tennis career, Steffi exhibited extended excellence through many a crisis, showing CLASS and dignity ..."

"And more than anyone this side of Chris Evert, Graf did her spanking with a dignity and CLASS that Venus Williams, Martina Hingis, Monica Seles and Martina Navratilova would beg to have. ..."

"'She had an unbelievable career, and she did it with a lot of CLASS,' said Pete Sampras."

"And with all the CLASS and professionalism of a veteran champion, Miss Steffi Graf won her sixth* and final French Open title, out-poising her* younger, brasher, and more fragile opponent for* the Grand Slam championship. ..."

"Steffi Graf exuded CLASS, character, charisma, consistency and convincing craft to reach the pinnacle."

"One-on-one, Graf has surpassed all the greats. The debate for anyone else is almost impossible to argue now after Graf rallied to beat Hingis when the tempestuous, self-absorbed Swiss teenager had a chance to serve out the match. It was a triumph of CLASS over crass. Poise over petulance. Grace over gross. Mind over mine. ..."

"And later that week, in keeping with the CLASS act that she always is, Steffi would place a half-page ad in the French newspaper, thanking the fans for their many years of support. The newspaper, so touched by her gesture, gave her the space for free - a fitting tribute to such a great lady, and a champion's champion. ... "


What do you think: when Venus retires, will they repeat those hymns?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Yeah its really classy to tell the player who just beat you in the semi of wimbledon that they have no chance of winning the whole thing. Yes, thats class alright... no class.

Maryamator
Jul 9th, 2005, 07:37 PM
well the umpire decides not venus

Larrybidd
Jul 9th, 2005, 09:12 PM
Take your head out of your ass you inbred Williams fan. How many times do we have to discuss this, you and any other Serena fan and/or Henin hater are idiots.

WE don't have to discuss anything, dumbass. You chose to discuss it, same as I. If only you could only get your nose out of the narrow rear end of Henin long enuf you'd realize that even her coach as much as conceded Henin was a poor sport! You are quite right this issue is already decided.

Larrybidd
Jul 9th, 2005, 09:19 PM
The linesman's view was blocked by Davenport's body.
.

Com'on, it was a serve, the linesman was lined up right where he was supposed to be in the middle of the court. Davenport can't move over fast enuf to block his view of a serve. He just plain missed it.

Calimero377
Jul 9th, 2005, 09:21 PM
Yeah its really classy to tell the player who just beat you in the semi of wimbledon that they have no chance of winning the whole thing. Yes, thats class alright... no class.


A honest answer in the press conference.

BTW, the player lost 4-6, 1-6 in the final .....

VeeReeDavJCap81
Jul 9th, 2005, 09:22 PM
A honest answer in the press conference.

BTW, the player lost 4-6, 1-6 in the final .....

You can't tell me saying that someone has absolutely no chance in the final after being beaten is classy.

Pengwin
Jul 9th, 2005, 10:20 PM
... Enna is European and a threat to U.S. supremacy in women's tennis.

Mauresmo, Clijsters, Sharapova, Kuznetsova etc....

mykarma
Jul 9th, 2005, 11:14 PM
You obviously don't play tennis.

When you serve from the ad side and the ball is about a foot to the left from the box you must be blind not to see that.
Venus saw it.
To deny that is retarded.

A classy player would have admitted it. Obviously Venus thought of the Sprem incident last year and decided to be smart instead.Interesting because Mary Carillo said on live television that Venus probably couldn't see that the ball was out from where she was. Certainly Mary has played tennis and perhaps you're the retarded one.

Martian Willow
Jul 9th, 2005, 11:18 PM
Interesting because Mary Carillo said on live television that Venus probably couldn't see that the ball was out from where she was. Certainly Mary has played tennis and perhaps you're the retarded one.

So Mary Carillo is an expert now? :D

mykarma
Jul 9th, 2005, 11:32 PM
I knew it - you don't play tennis.

Venus and Lindsay had a far better angle. It is 10 times easier to see whether a ball is 30 cm more to the left or more to the right (players' perspecitve in this particular case) or whether it is 30 cm more away or not (umpire's perspective in this particular case).

And why was the machine stupid?
This machine is only there to detect a serve being too LONG.
Venus' serve wasn't too long. It hit the wrong service box though. Machine can't see that.

:wavey:
(And I thought ASV fans are intelligent .... )
You play tennis and I'm impressed. :worship: Since you're the expert, I hope you're getting paid big money for playing. I'm sure you're aware that on this board it is not a prerequisite to be a professional tennis player to post or to have an opinion. Instead of assuming that if someone doesn't agree with you they don't play tennis is what is retarded. Even if they don't play tennis doesn't mean they don't know the game as well as you do.

If you want to call anyone blind, it should be the people that get paid to make the calls.

mykarma
Jul 9th, 2005, 11:37 PM
Hypocritical? No, simply unwilling to concede moral equivilence between Venus failing to concede a call that was on the OTHER SIDE OF THE COURT FROM HER. To the idiot that says it is virtually impossible for venus to not have been sure her serve was out, i say if the linesman who job it was to make the call missed it, than Venus coulda missed it. I have seem players concede line calls where the ball in question is on his/her own baseline. Roddick did that recently, and went on to loose the math. BUT that was on clay. All Roddick did was save the referee from coming down from the chair to check the mark. No big deal , happens all the time. But Venus failing to cocede something that happend on the other side of the net. Not even close ro unsportsmanlike.

Now, Sprem was also blameless in her incident last year. I found her explaination perfectly sensible. Sprem thought there was something wrong with the score, but was confused. And thought she could have been the one mistaken. Add to that the fact that her opponent didn't question it. Not Sprem's fault. Anyone who says she was it full of it. Richard Williams called it right.

Cappy takes advantage of a seres of bad line calls in her favor v. Serena. Not Cappy's respnsibility. Bad calls happen for and against all the time. they are judgement calls tha occur in every sport. And frankly when it comes to line calls, Players are as likely to get it wrong as officials. How many times do players argue line calls where shot spot shows them to be all wrong? Any players opinon on a line call is just that - an opinion - and not necesarrily fact.

Now, the true incident of unsportmanlike behavior, is JuJu Henin v. Serena at the FO. And the difference in the behavior is simply that of someone who witnesses a crime (ie. accepting the benifit of what appears to be a bad line call) and actually purpetrating a crime. It was JuJu's own bahavior that cased the let - no judgement was required on henin's part as to what actually happend. Once Serena complained about her distracting hand gesture on her serve. Henin should have given her the let. Extremely poor sportmanship. Even har coach said its something she wounldn't normally de. I will think of that whenever i see Henin play, and so will Serena.
:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

mykarma
Jul 9th, 2005, 11:41 PM
Aren't you the one from Texas?
:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:

mykarma
Jul 9th, 2005, 11:44 PM
When Graf retired the word "class" was all around in the newspaper articles ....

"Throughout her tennis career, Steffi exhibited extended excellence through many a crisis, showing CLASS and dignity ..."

"And more than anyone this side of Chris Evert, Graf did her spanking with a dignity and CLASS that Venus Williams, Martina Hingis, Monica Seles and Martina Navratilova would beg to have. ..."

"'She had an unbelievable career, and she did it with a lot of CLASS,' said Pete Sampras."

"And with all the CLASS and professionalism of a veteran champion, Miss Steffi Graf won her sixth* and final French Open title, out-poising her* younger, brasher, and more fragile opponent for* the Grand Slam championship. ..."

"Steffi Graf exuded CLASS, character, charisma, consistency and convincing craft to reach the pinnacle."

"One-on-one, Graf has surpassed all the greats. The debate for anyone else is almost impossible to argue now after Graf rallied to beat Hingis when the tempestuous, self-absorbed Swiss teenager had a chance to serve out the match. It was a triumph of CLASS over crass. Poise over petulance. Grace over gross. Mind over mine. ..."

"And later that week, in keeping with the CLASS act that she always is, Steffi would place a half-page ad in the French newspaper, thanking the fans for their many years of support. The newspaper, so touched by her gesture, gave her the space for free - a fitting tribute to such a great lady, and a champion's champion. ... "


What do you think: when Venus retires, will they repeat those hymns?
:lol: :lol: :lol:
I guess you missed it when Mary Carillo who doesn't even like Venus talk about how gracious and what a great sport she is on the court. She said it when she was giving Lindsay her props. :lol: :lol: :lol:

mykarma
Jul 9th, 2005, 11:50 PM
So Mary Carillo is an expert now? :D
Did I say that Mary was an expert? :confused: One thing I do know is if she thought Venus was wrong she'd still be whinning about it. Also Mary Jo (I think) was the announcer on Espn Classic and she didn't say anything about Venus seeing the ball either.

mykarma
Jul 10th, 2005, 03:22 PM
Take your head out of your ass you inbred Williams fan. How many times do we have to discuss this, you and any other Serena fan and/or Henin hater are idiots.
If you don't won't to discuss this then don't. No one is forcing you to read or post in this thread. You're the one acting like an idiot. :rolleyes:

Denise4925
Jul 11th, 2005, 04:46 PM
Aren't you the one from Texas?
HEY!!! :p We don't do that in Texas. That's those hillbillies in W. Virginia and Arkansas. ;)