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icequeen
Jul 5th, 2005, 12:16 AM
Williams sisters top Woods in impact
Kevin B. Blackistone
Dallas Morning News
Jul. 4, 2005 12:00 AM

WIMBLEDON, England - It was a popular refrain a number of years ago: Venus and Serena Williams would do for tennis what Tiger Woods was doing for golf.

Now, with Woods eight seasons removed from winning his first major, the Masters, and the Williams sisters six years removed from taking their first Grand Slam, the 1999 U.S. Open that Serena captured, the verdict is in.

The Williams sisters haven't done for their once insular sport what Tiger did for his still heavily blinkered game. They've done more. advertisement

The Williams sisters and Tiger both boosted TV ratings for their sports to heights never before seen. The all-Williams final at the 2001 U.S. Open drew a larger audience than the Notre Dame-Nebraska football game on at the same time. Woods' final round at that '97 Masters produced a record golf audience in the cable era.

Both, no doubt, have created interest for their sport in pockets where traditionally there had been none.

Both caused sales of the prerequisite equipment for their respective sports to spike.

But there is one area where the Williams sisters, in shorter time, have trumped Tiger. And nothing is more indelible than this. It is legacy. They have already produced one. Tiger has not.

It is difficult to ignore that fact with Venus playing Saturday in her first Grand Slam final in two years and Tiger headed to the United Kingdom two weekends from now for the British Open.

For over on Court 18 at the All England Club early Friday afternoon was a 15-year-old kid with a diamond stud in his left ear and a white ball cap on his noggin cocked slightly over his forehead like Cleveland Indians pitcher C.C. Sabathia.

Donald Young is the No. 1 junior in the world, a title he claimed in January by winning the Australian Open juniors. He's the youngest ever to hold the No. 1 ranking. He hails from Chicago and now lives with his coaching parents in Atlanta. And he's Black.

Earlier in the week, Young was on a collision course to meet Timothy Neilly in Friday's boys semifinals. Born in the Bahamas and a resident of Miami, Neilly is the 15th-ranked junior in the world. He's 17 and Black, too.

Then there is 17-year-old Marcus Fugate out of Fairport, N.Y. He's the 67th-ranked junior on the planet. And he's Black.

Neilly lost in the quarterfinals Thursday. Young was felled Friday by France's top-ranked junior, a hard-hitting 18-year-old named Jeremy Chardy.

John McEnroe, among others, has said that Young is the future star of American tennis. Nike concurs. It already has picked him up.

The National Minority Golf Foundation's Web site does show two players in the top 100 in the boys rankings and four players in the top 100 in the girls rankings.

But Woods found no solace in the numbers.

"At the junior level, there are some players with some talent, but as you continue to move up more levels, the process of screening weeds them out," he told the media on the eve of the U.S. Open.

After all this time, Woods remains the lone Black player on the PGA Tour.

During the first week of Wimbledon, Serena was matched against 20-year-old Angela Haynes, one of the little kids who watched Serena growing up on the playground courts of Compton, Calif. Haynes is Black, too.

Then there is 20-year-old Shenay Perry from Washington D.C. She turned pro in 2000 and joined several other Black women on the tour.

The reasons are clear why the Williams sisters have had a greater impact bringing other Black athletes into tennis than Woods has had getting more Black players, or other minorities, into golf.

For one, Black kids identify more with the Williams sisters, reared in a well-known Black neighborhood by Black parents, than with Tiger. Tiger wasn't reared in a predominantly Black neighborhood. He is the product of a mixed marriage and appears to have championed his other roots far more than his Black roots.

The Williams sisters always seemed Afrocentric, whether with their braids and beads as teenagers or their ghetto fabulous hair weaves and big earrings as young adult women.

And when Tiger was asked to take a stand on an issue of import to the Black community, like Augusta, he balked. Serena respected the NAACP's travel ban against South Carolina and refused to play there.

Not only that, but golf, as Tiger alluded to recently, continues to struggle with making itself available.

"A lot of these kids don't have the opportunity to practice and play and compete around the country in junior golf events or individual amateur events," he lamented last month.

That's not the case with tennis. A racket doesn't cost nearly as much as a set of clubs. There isn't even a city fee to play on a municipal court. Anyone can play.

There are plenty of stories in tennis about working-class kids participating, especially now that the Williams sisters have shown the way.

ico4498
Jul 5th, 2005, 12:33 AM
luv Tiger ... but he's done everything possible to avoid being black. read a charity summation recently that placed him in the lowest teir of benifactors.

aint surprising that folks celebrate him ... success brings that. aint surprising that few are inspired to emulate him ... how many indentify themselves as Tiger folk?

Cybelle Darkholme
Jul 5th, 2005, 12:35 AM
great article.I noticed this too. I've seen a lot new up and coming tennis players but where are all the up and coming golfers??

VeeReeDavJCap81
Jul 5th, 2005, 01:02 AM
LMAO Who wrote that article??? "Ghetto fabulous weaves" :haha:

harloo
Jul 5th, 2005, 01:36 AM
LMAO Who wrote that article??? "Ghetto fabulous weaves" :haha:

I was wondering who wrote this because they must be someone who pays alot of attention to the sisters kitchens.:tape: :lol:

Paneru
Jul 5th, 2005, 01:48 AM
LMAO Who wrote that article??? "Ghetto fabulous weaves" :haha:
:haha:

Same Kevin Blackistone from
"Around the Horn"?

Black Mamba.
Jul 5th, 2005, 01:55 AM
:haha:

Same Kevin Blackistone from
"Around the Horn"?


Yep :lol:

DemWilliamsGulls
Jul 5th, 2005, 02:17 AM
To be honest..I respect Tiger woods for his ability to play golf well, but I don't appreciate the fact the he has a hard time to identify being black. Yeah you might be mixed with other races..but as long as you have some BLACK in you..dammit you are black. I'm not 100% black, but if you see me walking down the street...you will say I'm african american..same with tiger woods. Venus and Serena has always held it down for us...they have no shame of where they come from and their heritage...Thats why more blacks respect the Williams Sisters more than Tiger..and their impact is greater than his.

La Reine
Jul 5th, 2005, 02:26 AM
To be honest..I respect Tiger woods for his ability to play golf well, but I don't appreciate the fact the he has a hard time to identify being black. Yeah you might be mixed with other races..but as long as you have some BLACK in you..dammit you are black. I'm not 100% black, but if you see me walking down the street...you will say I'm african american..same with tiger woods. Venus and Serena has always held it down for us...they have no shame of where they come from and their heritage...Thats why more blacks respect the Williams Sisters more than Tiger..and their impact is greater than his.

To me, Tiger Woods wouldn't actually qualify as black. Only when I came to America did anybody remotely close to black, no matter how white their skin color, have to identify as black.

In Nigeria, anybody who is not black as an African is automatically white, no matter how little white they have in them. So Tiger is white. Hell even Venus and Serena are white.

But...I see this as a matter of different contexts. It's not all Tiger's fault, he's just being technically correct.

No Name Face
Jul 5th, 2005, 02:34 AM
To me, Tiger Woods wouldn't actually qualify as black. Only when I came to America did anybody remotely close to black, no matter how white their skin color, have to identify as black.

In Nigeria, anybody who is not black as an African is automatically white, no matter how little white they have in them. So Tiger is white. Hell even Venus and Serena are white.

But...I see this as a matter of different contexts. It's not all Tiger's fault, he's just being technically correct.

Venus and Serena are VERY dark though. I'm mixed and I'm brown-skinned...I don't see how they'd classify as black because they're way darker than I am...and I classify myself as black (although I'm mixed).

And Tiger's sorta like me when it comes to the mixed thing. He doesn't really look that Asian at all, just like I don't really look white (but black is the dominant gene, anyway)...so Tiger should appeal to the black community more, that's what he's seen as.

spokenword73
Jul 5th, 2005, 03:52 AM
To me, Tiger Woods wouldn't actually qualify as black. Only when I came to America did anybody remotely close to black, no matter how white their skin color, have to identify as black.

In Nigeria, anybody who is not black as an African is automatically white, no matter how little white they have in them. So Tiger is white. Hell even Venus and Serena are white.

But...I see this as a matter of different contexts. It's not all Tiger's fault, he's just being technically correct.

ah, er, okay. let's not go off the deep end.

Venus and Serena are black as in American of African descent. Tiger is half black, half Thai (I think). In the USA we have the one-drop rule: if you have one drop of black blood, you are considered black. (Not saying I agree, biologically speaking )

But to me being black is really an attitude, a state of mind that Venus and Serena have, and folks like Tiger Woods don't:o

J_Migoe
Jul 5th, 2005, 04:57 AM
Agree

sixfeetfree
Jul 5th, 2005, 05:05 AM
LMAO Who wrote that article??? "Ghetto fabulous weaves" :haha:

Kevin Blackistone, a writer here in Dallas for the Dallas Morning News. Be glad you don't have to suffer through his stories in the sports section of the newspaper - genius I tell ya, pure genius... :unsure: :smash:

VeraNuVirgosFan
Jul 5th, 2005, 06:58 AM
"He is the product of a mixed marriage and appears to have championed his other roots far more than his Black roots."
It seems he hasn't championed his Thai roots either.
read a charity summation recently that placed him in the lowest teir of benifactors.
By the way, correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't heard about his donation to the people affected by tsunami in Thailand yet.

pav
Jul 5th, 2005, 08:24 AM
Isn't this sort of writing a crock of old racist shit,identifying Tiger and the Willies as black,Tiger is half Asian, what the hell colour is bloody VJ Sing if He's not black?
Christ He's blacker than Tiger and the Willies put together, Who are the real racists? I think the patronising idiots writing this crap, now I have to go round up a bloody sheep!

Jakeev
Jul 5th, 2005, 08:37 AM
In the USA we have the one-drop rule: if you have one drop of black blood, you are considered black. (Not saying I agree, biologically speaking )


Um ok in the USA according to who? If you are half black and asian than that is exactly what you are.

What the hell is wrong with embracing both?

Libertango
Jul 5th, 2005, 08:38 AM
I would definitely agree that Venus and Serena have done far more the black community than Tiger Woods has. I remember when he said that he wasn't black and when appeared on Oprah he apologised after she challenged him about it. (For the record he is mixed black, thai and chinese....I think his mother was born in Hawaii)

Anyway, whilst I certainly agree that if you have black gene's in you then it means you should acknowledge that side you, however I don't think it means that you are "black" as someone said earlier, or like the on-drop rule. To me that's stupid, saying if you have one drop of black blood in you it makes you black. I mean, isn't that disrespectful towards other mixes in you?

I'm half black half Japanese, and I was brought up completely aware of both mixes in me. My parents taught to think of both heritage's and cultures equally. I don't call myself a black person or a Japanese person. I'm of mixed heritage and that's how it always will be.

VeraNuVirgosFan
Jul 5th, 2005, 09:28 AM
(For the record he is mixed black, thai and chinese....
I think his mother was born in Hawaii)
I don't know whether or not she was born in Hawaii.

But I heard that his father met his mother in Thailand.

Staticbeef
Jul 5th, 2005, 09:41 AM
Williams sisters top Woods in impact
Kevin B. Blackistone
Dallas Morning News
Jul. 4, 2005 12:00 AM

WIMBLEDON, England - It was a popular refrain a number of years ago: Venus and Serena Williams would do for tennis what Tiger Woods was doing for golf.

Now, with Woods eight seasons removed from winning his first major, the Masters, and the Williams sisters six years removed from taking their first Grand Slam, the 1999 U.S. Open that Serena captured, the verdict is in.

The Williams sisters haven't done for their once insular sport what Tiger did for his still heavily blinkered game. They've done more. advertisement

The Williams sisters and Tiger both boosted TV ratings for their sports to heights never before seen. The all-Williams final at the 2001 U.S. Open drew a larger audience than the Notre Dame-Nebraska football game on at the same time. Woods' final round at that '97 Masters produced a record golf audience in the cable era.

Both, no doubt, have created interest for their sport in pockets where traditionally there had been none.

Both caused sales of the prerequisite equipment for their respective sports to spike.

But there is one area where the Williams sisters, in shorter time, have trumped Tiger. And nothing is more indelible than this. It is legacy. They have already produced one. Tiger has not.

It is difficult to ignore that fact with Venus playing Saturday in her first Grand Slam final in two years and Tiger headed to the United Kingdom two weekends from now for the British Open.

For over on Court 18 at the All England Club early Friday afternoon was a 15-year-old kid with a diamond stud in his left ear and a white ball cap on his noggin cocked slightly over his forehead like Cleveland Indians pitcher C.C. Sabathia.

Donald Young is the No. 1 junior in the world, a title he claimed in January by winning the Australian Open juniors. He's the youngest ever to hold the No. 1 ranking. He hails from Chicago and now lives with his coaching parents in Atlanta. And he's Black.

Earlier in the week, Young was on a collision course to meet Timothy Neilly in Friday's boys semifinals. Born in the Bahamas and a resident of Miami, Neilly is the 15th-ranked junior in the world. He's 17 and Black, too.

Then there is 17-year-old Marcus Fugate out of Fairport, N.Y. He's the 67th-ranked junior on the planet. And he's Black.

Neilly lost in the quarterfinals Thursday. Young was felled Friday by France's top-ranked junior, a hard-hitting 18-year-old named Jeremy Chardy.

John McEnroe, among others, has said that Young is the future star of American tennis. Nike concurs. It already has picked him up.

The National Minority Golf Foundation's Web site does show two players in the top 100 in the boys rankings and four players in the top 100 in the girls rankings.

But Woods found no solace in the numbers.

"At the junior level, there are some players with some talent, but as you continue to move up more levels, the process of screening weeds them out," he told the media on the eve of the U.S. Open.

After all this time, Woods remains the lone Black player on the PGA Tour.

During the first week of Wimbledon, Serena was matched against 20-year-old Angela Haynes, one of the little kids who watched Serena growing up on the playground courts of Compton, Calif. Haynes is Black, too.

Then there is 20-year-old Shenay Perry from Washington D.C. She turned pro in 2000 and joined several other Black women on the tour.

The reasons are clear why the Williams sisters have had a greater impact bringing other Black athletes into tennis than Woods has had getting more Black players, or other minorities, into golf.

For one, Black kids identify more with the Williams sisters, reared in a well-known Black neighborhood by Black parents, than with Tiger. Tiger wasn't reared in a predominantly Black neighborhood. He is the product of a mixed marriage and appears to have championed his other roots far more than his Black roots.

The Williams sisters always seemed Afrocentric, whether with their braids and beads as teenagers or their ghetto fabulous hair weaves and big earrings as young adult women.

And when Tiger was asked to take a stand on an issue of import to the Black community, like Augusta, he balked. Serena respected the NAACP's travel ban against South Carolina and refused to play there.

Not only that, but golf, as Tiger alluded to recently, continues to struggle with making itself available.

"A lot of these kids don't have the opportunity to practice and play and compete around the country in junior golf events or individual amateur events," he lamented last month.

That's not the case with tennis. A racket doesn't cost nearly as much as a set of clubs. There isn't even a city fee to play on a municipal court. Anyone can play.

There are plenty of stories in tennis about working-class kids participating, especially now that the Williams sisters have shown the way.

:wavey: Thank You I.Q., what part of the world are you from?????

Jakeev
Jul 5th, 2005, 10:01 AM
I would definitely agree that Venus and Serena have done far more the black community than Tiger Woods has. I remember when he said that he wasn't black and when appeared on Oprah he apologised after she challenged him about it. (For the record he is mixed black, thai and chinese....I think his mother was born in Hawaii)

Anyway, whilst I certainly agree that if you have black gene's in you then it means you should acknowledge that side you, however I don't think it means that you are "black" as someone said earlier, or like the on-drop rule. To me that's stupid, saying if you have one drop of black blood in you it makes you black. I mean, isn't that disrespectful towards other mixes in you?

I'm half black half Japanese, and I was brought up completely aware of both mixes in me. My parents taught to think of both heritage's and cultures equally. I don't call myself a black person or a Japanese person. I'm of mixed heritage and that's how it always will be.

:worship: excellent post!!!!

nander
Jul 5th, 2005, 11:30 AM
This one drop of black blood making one black is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever heard. It is also very racist: being black is not a disease that you catch and become tainted with. What do drops of white blood make me?
Additionally, what does blood have to do with heritage? Enough of the scientific ignorance. We inherit genes from our parents and now that we know how similar we all are in terms of our genes, the whole idea of race is hardly tenable.
Tiger Woods is of African-American and Thai heritage. Why should he be put into a box. Let him be and live however he wants.

SJW
Jul 5th, 2005, 11:38 AM
This one drop of black blood making one black is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever heard. It is also very racist: being black is not a disease that you catch and become tainted with. What do drops of white blood make me?
Additionally, what does blood have to do with heritage? Enough of the scientific ignorance. We inherit genes from our parents and now that we know how similar we all are in terms of our genes, the whole idea of race is hardly tenable.
Tiger Woods is of African-American and Thai heritage. Why should he be put into a box. Let him be and live however he wants.

i think you have to appreciate thats the way people see you.
for example, Vijay is NOT black. but because he has dark skin people think of him as so.
technically speaking i'm not black either. i have white English in my blood also. but thats the way people see me. i'm hardly gonna waste my breath trying to put them right. :yawn:

auntie janie
Jul 5th, 2005, 11:43 AM
Isn't this sort of writing a crock of old racist shit,identifying Tiger and the Willies as black,Tiger is half Asian, what the hell colour is bloody VJ Sing if He's not black?
Christ He's blacker than Tiger and the Willies put together, Who are the real racists? I think the patronising idiots writing this crap, now I have to go round up a bloody sheep!

Excuse me, the writer of the article, Kevin Blackistone, is black. :rolleyes:

Sam L
Jul 5th, 2005, 12:09 PM
I would definitely agree that Venus and Serena have done far more the black community than Tiger Woods has. I remember when he said that he wasn't black and when appeared on Oprah he apologised after she challenged him about it. (For the record he is mixed black, thai and chinese....I think his mother was born in Hawaii)

Anyway, whilst I certainly agree that if you have black gene's in you then it means you should acknowledge that side you, however I don't think it means that you are "black" as someone said earlier, or like the on-drop rule. To me that's stupid, saying if you have one drop of black blood in you it makes you black. I mean, isn't that disrespectful towards other mixes in you?

I'm half black half Japanese, and I was brought up completely aware of both mixes in me. My parents taught to think of both heritage's and cultures equally. I don't call myself a black person or a Japanese person. I'm of mixed heritage and that's how it always will be.
You are much better than Tiger and probably much more interesting. :hearts:

And I agree 100% with this article.

calabar
Jul 5th, 2005, 01:17 PM
That's not the case with tennis. A racket doesn't cost nearly as much as a set of clubs. There isn't even a city fee to play on a municipal court. Anyone can play.


I don't understand where this writer is coming from. I really believe that Tiger is getting a bum rap here. In one sense he is saying Tiger isn't "black enough" to pull minorities into the sport, in another sense he is citing economics as the reason. So which is it?

spokenword73
Jul 5th, 2005, 02:07 PM
Um ok in the USA according to who? If you are half black and asian than that is exactly what you are.

What the hell is wrong with embracing both?

The slavemasters made up the one-drop rule to keep more people in bondage.
Nothing wrong with embracing both ethnicities, but in the USA, Tiger is considered black.

TSequoia01
Jul 5th, 2005, 04:14 PM
The slavemasters made up the one-drop rule to keep more people in bondage.
Nothing wrong with embracing both ethnicities, but in the USA, Tiger is considered black.

Exactly more slaves, more workers, and more money. It was economics. As far as Tiger is concerned he knows what being black is about. He just does not dwell on it. His color is green, he will be the first billionaire athlete.

victory1
Jul 5th, 2005, 04:19 PM
I dont care what color he is, it's his cheapness that stands out. How can you only give $1.5 million to charity you when made more money then any athelete in 2004. Agassi who was #34 gave 11 Million!

Pureracket
Jul 5th, 2005, 04:20 PM
Yes, I respect all people, and people have the right to call themselves what they want; however, part of what we call ourselves is constructed by society.

The "Black" men who are unjustly profiled while driving on I-95 can call themselves Asian, Hispanic, half-White or whatever they deem necessary, but if the policemen see you as Black, you're going to probably be stopped.

The nature of racism is not as much of how you see yourself, but it's how others see you.

Jakeev
Jul 5th, 2005, 05:08 PM
The slavemasters made up the one-drop rule to keep more people in bondage.
Nothing wrong with embracing both ethnicities, but in the USA, Tiger is considered black.

Well those evil doer's are long dead and it's time America grew up and embrace each other for who we are instead of dwelling on skin color.

lizchris
Jul 5th, 2005, 05:37 PM
I don't understand where this writer is coming from. I really believe that Tiger is getting a bum rap here. In one sense he is saying Tiger isn't "black enough" to pull minorities into the sport, in another sense he is citing economics as the reason. So which is it?


The article is saying that because he doesn't embrace his blackness, he doesn't relate to black children who may want to enter the sport because they don't see him as black.

Veenut
Jul 5th, 2005, 06:39 PM
I think the dig on Tiger is not about his obvious skin color but his mentality. He is perceived as one who has difficulty embracing his African side. As an individual of mixed race myself (irish and black) I think it depends on how you are socialised. Tiger it would appear had to do more adaptation in order to be accepted in the environment he grew up in.

I don't think he wanted to abandon his African heritage but simpley wanted to be a great golf champion instead of a great black golf champion. The problem is in an ideal world that would be perfect but not currently in America. In any case, he does have an impact because he was the one who got me interested in golf and when Wei starts contending for titles I'll even watch the women.

IMO one of the ways we can solve the race problem is for us to all interbreed!!! Wouldn't that be fun!!! Then we can spend our time trying to figure out the mixture.

SelesFan70
Jul 5th, 2005, 07:14 PM
Tiger is to golf what Vanessa said happened to her when she won Miss America. She wasn't "black enough" for black Americans, but she was still "a black woman" to white America.

Serena and Venus have both played in Charleston, SC eventhough the NAACP still has an "official" boycott going on.

lizchris
Jul 5th, 2005, 07:16 PM
Tiger is to golf what Vanessa said happened to her when she won Miss America. She wasn't "black enough" for black Americans, but she was still "a black woman" to white America.

Serena and Venus have both played in Charleston, SC eventhough the NAACP still has an "official" boycott going on.



Vanessa was trying to run away from the fact that she was black, which was fine with whties, but when those pictures appeared in Penthouse, she became blacker than most black women in America to whites.

calabar
Jul 5th, 2005, 07:58 PM
The article is saying that because he doesn't embrace his blackness, he doesn't relate to black children who may want to enter the sport because they don't see him as black.

No matter how black Tiger becomes, as long as the sport remains expensive which golf (and ice hockey...and a few others) is, it will always be inaccessable to minorities.

lizchris
Jul 5th, 2005, 08:02 PM
No matter how black Tiger becomes, as long as the sport remains expensive which golf (and ice hockey...and a few others) is, it will always be inaccessable to minorities.

I agree with that to an extent. Tennis is still relatively expensive sport, but the cost is within reach of many nonwhites. In addition, you can go to most pubic parks to play tennis, that is not the case with golf.

icequeen
Jul 5th, 2005, 08:07 PM
Vanessa was trying to run away from the fact that she was black, which was fine with whties, but when those pictures appeared in Penthouse, she became blacker than most black women in America to whites.

Yep, and when all that crap went down with her the black people all pull together and stood behind her 100%; now she's blacker than black.

lizchris
Jul 5th, 2005, 08:17 PM
Yep, and when all that crap went down with her the black people all pull together and stood behind her 100%; now she's blacker than black.

You are 100% correct.

In addition, when she was trying to break into the music business, it was Luther Vandross, who died on Friday:sad: , who gave her a job as a backup singer on one of his tours in the late 1980's, when no one else would touch her. In fact, if I remember correctly, he almost lost a sponsor on his tour because he dared to hire her and he said he was sticking by her no matter what.:worship:

Anne K.
Jul 5th, 2005, 10:15 PM
:confused: I'm from the USA, and I don't understand why a half-black person
necessarily has to be considered black. They are just as much white as
they are black, and should be able to chose which heritage they want
to embrace, without being looked down at by blacks for not going the
African-American route, or by whites as being pseudo white. It's never
made sense to me. With reference to Vanessa Williams, that woman
looks more caucasian than I do! (I'm of Polish/Bohemian heritage) She
looks WAY more white than she looks black, IMHO. :eek:

AkademiQ
Jul 5th, 2005, 10:51 PM
Race is a very complicted and complex issue. That's all I can add because at this point I'm still trying to get back to the point and idea that this article was intended to be a positive thing :shrug:

mboyle
Jul 5th, 2005, 11:02 PM
Yeah you might be mixed with other races..but as long as you have some BLACK in you..dammit you are black.

What if he wants to celebrate his Asian or European heritages too:confused: .

Two things:

1. The Williams sisters are two people. Woods is one person. Shouldn't two people have more impact than one?

2. Tiger is kind of a bland person. Serena giggles all the time and is very outspoken. Venus does a jig every time she wins a tournament, and smiles brightly enough to illuminate a city. They write books, make TV shows, go to movie premiers, and show up in network sitcoms. Woods plays golf. People see a whole lot more of the sisters. Doesn't that have something to do with it as well?

No Name Face
Jul 5th, 2005, 11:28 PM
:confused: I'm from the USA, and I don't understand why a half-black person
necessarily has to be considered black. They are just as much white as
they are black, and should be able to chose which heritage they want
to embrace, without being looked down at by blacks for not going the
African-American route, or by whites as being pseudo white. It's never
made sense to me. With reference to Vanessa Williams, that woman
looks more caucasian than I do! (I'm of Polish/Bohemian heritage) She
looks WAY more white than she looks black, IMHO. :eek:

that's true...but most of the time if you're mixed you tend to look more black than you do white. i think in girls it's more likely that you'll look white though, but i'm a mixed boy and i'm pretty black-looking. i mean i'm pretty light skinned, but still.

mykarma
Jul 6th, 2005, 12:12 AM
I don't understand where this writer is coming from. I really believe that Tiger is getting a bum rap here. In one sense he is saying Tiger isn't "black enough" to pull minorities into the sport, in another sense he is citing economics as the reason. So which is it?
I think he wrote the facts about Tiger and why do you think he's giving Tiger a bum rap.

mykarma
Jul 6th, 2005, 12:15 AM
Yes, I respect all people, and people have the right to call themselves what they want; however, part of what we call ourselves is constructed by society.

The "Black" men who are unjustly profiled while driving on I-95 can call themselves Asian, Hispanic, half-White or whatever they deem necessary, but if the policemen see you as Black, you're going to probably be stopped.

The nature of racism is not as much of how you see yourself, but it's how others see you.

:worship: :worship: :worship:

RVD
Jul 6th, 2005, 12:20 AM
I think the dig on Tiger is not about his obvious skin color but his mentality. He is perceived as one who has difficulty embracing his African side. As an individual of mixed race myself (irish and black) I think it depends on how you are socialised. Tiger it would appear had to do more adaptation in order to be accepted in the environment he grew up in.

I don't think he wanted to abandon his African heritage but simpley wanted to be a great golf champion instead of a great black golf champion. The problem is in an ideal world that would be perfect but not currently in America. In any case, he does have an impact because he was the one who got me interested in golf and when Wei starts contending for titles I'll even watch the women.

IMO one of the ways we can solve the race problem is for us to all interbreed!!! Wouldn't that be fun!!! Then we can spend our time trying to figure out the mixture.Fully agree Veenut. :yeah:

I used to believe that Tiger Woods was an incredible human being for enduring those many days of discrimination at and around the club houses and golf courses. But after he chose to mostly disassociate himself from his black heritage, I just couldn't watch him any longer, nor be a fan. His father is a bit of a racist as well. And before people ask me how I know, just read up on daddy-Woods' past interviews.
He's also blatantly disrespected Richard Williams and the entire Williams family when asked about Venus and Serena' domination of tennis and their personalities. Again, feel free to look the interviews up yourselves. I just don't have the patience nor drive today.

Anyway, as a multi-ethnic man of color, it's clear to me where Tiger stands, and that's cool. It's his choice, and he chose what he felt was best for him, and how he wants to be perceived. And it would seem that the author of this article is right on point about him, and is saying what most here in the US feel about Mr. Woods.

Bottom Line: Tiger Woods has successfully burned that bridge of an entire people who looked up to him and believed in him to at least represent his other half (Black). And he instead, out-and-out rejected them. Needless to say that since that year of the slight, I haven't seen one single game of his.

mykarma
Jul 6th, 2005, 12:22 AM
You are 100% correct.

In addition, when she was trying to break into the music business, it was Luther Vandross, who died on Friday:sad: , who gave her a job as a backup singer on one of his tours in the late 1980's, when no one else would touch her. In fact, if I remember correctly, he almost lost a sponsor on his tour because he dared to hire her and he said he was sticking by her no matter what.:worship:
Yeah reminds me of when OJ's stupid ass got in trouble, he went to a black church and put on a dashiki. Same goes for Michael Jackson's simple ass. Wait and see if Tiger ever gets in trouble, he'll be blacker than Rev. Al Sharpton.

AnDyDog621
Jul 6th, 2005, 12:25 AM
i thought Tiger Woods is not half black, but only 1/4 black, a quarter, his dad is half white and half black. Tiger's mom is pure Thai. So he is 1/2 Asian, 1/4 black, and 1/4 white.

He is more Asian than Black. PERIOD

mykarma
Jul 6th, 2005, 12:26 AM
:confused: I'm from the USA, and I don't understand why a half-black person
necessarily has to be considered black. They are just as much white as
they are black, and should be able to chose which heritage they want
to embrace, without being looked down at by blacks for not going the
African-American route, or by whites as being pseudo white. It's never
made sense to me. With reference to Vanessa Williams, that woman
looks more caucasian than I do! (I'm of Polish/Bohemian heritage) She
looks WAY more white than she looks black, IMHO. :eek:That's your opinion because she absolutely looks black to me. She just happens to be light complexion as many blacks are.

No Name Face
Jul 6th, 2005, 12:27 AM
i thought Tiger Woods is not half black, but only 1/4 black, a quarter, his dad is half white and half black. Tiger's mom is pure Thai. So he is 1/2 Asian, 1/4 black, and 1/4 white.

He is more Asian than Black. PERIOD

he still looks black to me. :confused:

AnDyDog621
Jul 6th, 2005, 12:30 AM
he still looks black to me. :confused:

yea he does look black to me, but he also looks asian to me as well.

mykarma
Jul 6th, 2005, 12:34 AM
i thought Tiger Woods is not half black, but only 1/4 black, a quarter, his dad is half white and half black. Tiger's mom is pure Thai. So he is 1/2 Asian, 1/4 black, and 1/4 white.

He is more Asian than Black. PERIODI think Earl Woods is black. I could be mistaken but I believe he's suppose to have some Indian in him as do a great number of blacks in this country. There are not many African Americans that are not mixed with some other race.

OUT!
Jul 6th, 2005, 12:34 AM
What the hell is wrong with embracing both?
In England nothing. Mixed heritage is more accurate than black but leave definitions up to the individual. BTW those who stand by the drop of blood rule must also remember that blacks were considered 2/5ths a human being at the time that theory was introduced. :eek:

Tiger vs. Williamses? Why does one have to have a more profound impact than the other? How is it possible to measure the level of impact in any event?

AnDyDog621
Jul 6th, 2005, 12:35 AM
I think Earl Woods is black. I could be mistaken but I believe he's suppose to have some Indian in him as do a great number of blacks in this country. There are not many African Americans that are not mixed with some other race.

oh yea, that sounds familiar, that he is black, white, and little bit indian

RVD
Jul 6th, 2005, 12:44 AM
:confused: I'm from the USA, and I don't understand why a half-black person necessarily has to be considered black.All thanks to Jim Crow and the slave masters. As stated earlier in the thread, it was a way of establishing economic control AND white (social) superiority.

They are just as much white as they are black, and should be able to chose which heritage they want to embrace, without being looked down at by blacks for not going the African-American route, or by whites as being pseudo white.I understand where you're coming from and I wish that were the case. But as seen even on this message board, people never let you forget what and who you are. :shrug:
Moreover, you can't actually choose your heritage. The moment you are born of a particular ethnicity, it is chosen for you. The most you can choose is who you prefer to relate to. And in Tiger's case, he did just that.
It's never made sense to me. With reference to Vanessa Williams, that woman looks more caucasian than I do! (I'm of Polish/Bohemian heritage) She looks WAY more white than she looks black, IMHO. :eek:Here are pics of both...(including Tiger's wife).
http://www.vnn.vn/dataimages/original/images331387_va.jpg http://www.prisonpotpourri.com/ROYALSandCELEBS2/Tiger%20Woods%20and%20fianee%20Elin%20Nordegren.ap .jpg
(DAMN, but these women are fine! But that's besides the point) :lol:
I think it's easy to see that both tiger and Vanessa do more black than white. Simple contrast their hues to Tiger's wife.

Black Mamba.
Jul 6th, 2005, 12:48 AM
T.Woods and the sisters are inspiration to African Americans. Regardless of who does more T.Woods has done more for the African American community than some other Black athletes ie.. Kobe Bryant aka KB8. He can consider himself green for all I care, he did his job. His job is a job both him and the sisters have succeeded in doing and that job was to bring in diverse audiences and participants to predominatly white sports and for that I salute them both. Sure the PGA tour is still mostly white, but look at who watches golf now especially when T.Woods is in the hunt, I can promise you it just white people it is people of all ages, races, and nationalities. The biggest barrier to golf is the same barrier against swimming and that is they both are expensive sports that not only take a lot of money but a lot of time as well. Sure Tiger can be more active in the Black or Asian communities, but that won't make a set of golf clubs any less expensive.

Rocketta
Jul 6th, 2005, 01:02 AM
Vanessa Williams is NOT mixed!!! Clearly people who are saying this haven't seen her parents...*sigh*

I always go back and ask this question.....What is the definition of Black anyway? Is it 100% African, 80%, 75% ?? The minute the slave master started raping their slaves Black meant a mixture here in the good old United States. For me when someone says they are black I certainly don't think, "straight from the motha land" ... The other issue with Tigar is, fine he's rich he can call his trifling ass anything he wants but can the lowly brotha on the street? When his ass is getting shot 17 times by cops while walking home do you think the cops are thinking...hey he's kind of light maybe he's not black but is of mixed heritage? :tape:

One of my best friends in the world is half fillipino and half black...the girl eats rice everyday and speaks Tagalog.....when she walks out the door she's still black doesn't mean she isn't Fillipino either but she knows what people see when they look at her and she doesn't have money or a pulpit to announce to world she's not black...she has to deal with every piece of bullshit every other black person has to deal with. :rolleyes:

No Name Face
Jul 6th, 2005, 01:09 AM
Vanessa Williams is NOT mixed!!! Clearly people who are saying this haven't seen her parents...*sigh*

I always go back and ask this question.....What is the definition of Black anyway? Is it 100% African, 80%, 75% ?? The minute the slave master started raping their slaves Black meant a mixture here in the good old United States. For me when someone says they are black I certainly don't think, "straight from the motha land" ... The other issue with Tigar is, fine he's rich he can call his trifling ass anything he wants but can the lowly brotha on the street? When his ass is getting shot 17 times by cops while walking home do you think the cops are thinking...hey he's kind of light maybe he's not black but is of mixed heritage? :tape:

One of my best friends in the world is half fillipino and half black...the girl eats rice everyday and speaks Tagalog.....when she walks out the door she's still black doesn't mean she isn't Fillipino either but she knows what people see when they look at her and she doesn't have money or a pulpit to announce to world she's not black...she has to deal with every piece of bullshit every other black person has to deal with. :rolleyes:


exactly. i'm half black and half german but when i leave the house i'm black and just that. my sisters are lighter skinned than me so maybe they can get away with saying they're white (they look sorta spanish though) but i mean, i'm black and i relate that. people are just gonna think i'm ashamed of who i am if i'm all up in someone's face saying, "i'm half german and that's the side i'm gonna relate to..." so it's easier and more convenient to just say i'm black. it's annoying though because i guess i'm good looking and some people have actually said, it's because you're only half black...and i got pretty annoyed at that. there are so many beautiful black people (women) so it just shows how racist people are and how they think i will (as being half-black) will find it funny.


and yeah, people always assume every light skinned 'caucasian-esque' black person is mixed. but that's a misconception. i'm not sure if halle berry is mixed but that chick looks straight up black with few caucasian features.

Rocketta
Jul 6th, 2005, 01:15 AM
Yes, Halle mixed.....Vanessa not. ;)

mykarma
Jul 6th, 2005, 01:20 AM
Vanessa Williams is NOT mixed!!! Clearly people who are saying this haven't seen her parents...*sigh*

I always go back and ask this question.....What is the definition of Black anyway? Is it 100% African, 80%, 75% ?? The minute the slave master started raping their slaves Black meant a mixture here in the good old United States. For me when someone says they are black I certainly don't think, "straight from the motha land" ... The other issue with Tigar is, fine he's rich he can call his trifling ass anything he wants but can the lowly brotha on the street? When his ass is getting shot 17 times by cops while walking home do you think the cops are thinking...hey he's kind of light maybe he's not black but is of mixed heritage? :tape:

One of my best friends in the world is half fillipino and half black...the girl eats rice everyday and speaks Tagalog.....when she walks out the door she's still black doesn't mean she isn't Fillipino either but she knows what people see when they look at her and she doesn't have money or a pulpit to announce to world she's not black...she has to deal with every piece of bullshit every other black person has to deal with. :rolleyes:
Damn, home girl. Right on the money. Hey everyone, look at Vanessa Williams. She is a light complexion, beautiful, black female.

spokenword73
Jul 6th, 2005, 01:39 AM
Vanessa was trying to run away from the fact that she was black, which was fine with whties, but when those pictures appeared in Penthouse, she became blacker than most black women in America to whites.

Whew! I don't remember Vanessa Williams ever trying to run from her blackness. In fact, she always made sure people knew her parents are black and she did marry two black men. :wavey:

Now Jennifer Beals, she is another story. She always claimed to be half, this that and the other. And to the person who suggested everybody be "interbred" there is nothing wrong with being all black. WE are the envy of the world.

OUT!
Jul 6th, 2005, 01:48 AM
I always go back and ask this question.....What is the definition of Black anyway? Is it 100% African, 80%, 75% ??
Hello Rocketta

Can I claim to be mixed? I have been stopped by the police on one occasion in my life, so does that me more black than mixed? Indeed. was I even stopped by the police due to skin colour? For the record, my father is black African (but moved in Jamaica) and my mother is white Irish. I am light skinned and I have racially ambiguous features. Do I qualify as mixed now or do I have to identify as black? These racial catergorisations can operate in a very oppressive manner. To identify as mixed does not mean to say that a person is ashamed of their black heritage. Ultimately racial identity is about how you define yourself, although I take your point that society usually defines mixed heritage people as black. But whose fault is that? :)

I agree that in the US few very people are 100% black, and that much of this is tied into the historical legacies of slavery and institionalised racism, but what about in other places of the world like Europe, where African and white Euopean relationships are commonplace, what is the status of their children? I think yours might be a more American perspective. In such a case, does a child identify him/herself as black or mixed heritage? In addition, what about children who pass as white? That throws the whole race debate b/c such a operson might identfiy themselves as black but they have all of the social advantages associated with having white skin.

This post should be in the Ask Black People Anything thread as I know we've had this discussion a few times before:lol:

SJW
Jul 6th, 2005, 01:53 AM
practically all African-Americans aren't purely black anyway. so i dont get what the beef is.
they must be the most diverse race on the planet. so much so, that other black people (afro-caribbean and african) consider them separate. if you put an african american next to me, if you look hard enough you'll see a million and one differences. just like africans dont claim afro-caribbeans either.

OUT!
Jul 6th, 2005, 02:00 AM
. just like africans dont claim afro-caribbeans either.

Yes, to those that don't know, Africans and Afro-Carribeans don't get along in the UK. Well at least that's the stereotype :tape:

SJW
Jul 6th, 2005, 02:05 AM
Yes, to those that don't know, Africans and Afro-Carribeans don't get along in the UK. Well at least that's the stereotype :tape:

its not a stereotype, it's generally true. africans look down their noses at west indians.they claim they're thick (stupid) and Afro-Caribbeans look down their nose at africans and claim they're uncivilised :lol: but when you get to know the people its ok. Africans stick to their own. us Afro Caribbeans stick to their own. there's a lot of slurs and joking going around. that's the world we live in unfortunately :)

Infiniti2001
Jul 6th, 2005, 02:58 AM
Vanessa Williams is NOT mixed!!! Clearly people who are saying this haven't seen her parents...*sigh*

Exactly!! There are people in the Caribbean who have fairer skin and lighter eyes than Vanessa and they call themselves black.

lizchris
Jul 6th, 2005, 03:11 AM
Whew! I don't remember Vanessa Williams ever trying to run from her blackness. In fact, she always made sure people knew her parents are black and she did marry two black men. :wavey:

Now Jennifer Beals, she is another story. She always claimed to be half, this that and the other. And to the person who suggested everybody be "interbred" there is nothing wrong with being all black. WE are the envy of the world.



Vanessa did, but it was at the suggestion of the Miss America organization, the same organization who turned their backs on her when those pictures were published (in some cases I think it may have been a safety issue because when she used to travel the South, she had to have bodyguards because people were sending her death threats).

Don't get me started on Jennifer Beales. I knew from the first time I saw her that bitch wasn't white, but she was claiming she was:rolleyes: . That was until Ebony magazine outed her in 1988 when they showed a picture of her parents; her father (who died in 1974) was black and her mother is (I think she is still alive) white. Because her father died when she was young and he was well off, her mother took the money, left the city of Chicago and moved to the suburbs of Chicago and passed her kids off as white. Ever since I read that article, I had little use for her:o

Rocketta
Jul 6th, 2005, 04:14 AM
Vanessa did, but it was at the suggestion of the Miss America organization, the same organization who turned their backs on her when those pictures were published (in some cases I think it may have been a safety issue because when she used to travel the South, she had to have bodyguards because people were sending her death threats).

Don't get me started on Jennifer Beales. I knew from the first time I saw her that bitch wasn't white, but she was claiming she was:rolleyes: . That was until Ebony magazine outed her in 1988 when they showed a picture of her parents; her father (who died in 1974) was black and her mother is (I think she is still alive) white. Because her father died when she was young and he was well off, her mother took the money, left the city of Chicago and moved to the suburbs of Chicago and passed her kids off as white. Ever since I read that article, I had little use for her:o

well the jig is up on Jennifer....:lol: Now for the most part she only gets "mixed girl" parts. ;)

Rocketta
Jul 6th, 2005, 04:23 AM
Hello Rocketta

Can I claim to be mixed? I have been stopped by the police on one occasion in my life, so does that me more black than mixed? Indeed. was I even stopped by the police due to skin colour? For the record, my father is black African (but moved in Jamaica) and my mother is white Irish. I am light skinned and I have racially ambiguous features. Do I qualify as mixed now or do I have to identify as black? These racial catergorisations can operate in a very oppressive manner. To identify as mixed does not mean to say that a person is ashamed of their black heritage. Ultimately racial identity is about how you define yourself, although I take your point that society usually defines mixed heritage people as black. But whose fault is that? :)

We are not talking about fault. We are talking about what is. Reality. Did I say someone who is viewed as black in public wasn't mixed? I think I was clear that my friend who clearly embraces both of her cultures is only viewed as one thing when in public. What your examples prove is that no matter what you call yourself or think of yourself others see you as black. Does that change your definition? No I never said it did. What I'm saying is for someone, ie Tiger to go out of their way to say they are this and that and a little of this is really :bs: most of the time because most black people in the us can say the same.

A perfect example of someone who is mixed but understands the world and isn't ashamed of one part or the other is Soledad O'Brian. She calls herself black when she's around black people, hispanic when she's around hispanic, Irish when she's around Irish. Wow!!! She's all three. She belongs to all three jounalist associations. That wasn't hard for to admit she's black because she knew by saying she was black didn't mean she couldn't say she was others as well. That's Tiger's and several others problems they feel like if they call themselves black then they can't also be the other when they can.


I agree that in the US few very people are 100% black, and that much of this is tied into the historical legacies of slavery and institionalised racism, but what about in other places of the world like Europe, where African and white Euopean relationships are commonplace, what is the status of their children? I think yours might be a more American perspective. In such a case, does a child identify him/herself as black or mixed heritage? In addition, what about children who pass as white? That throws the whole race debate b/c such a operson might identfiy themselves as black but they have all of the social advantages associated with having white skin.

This post should be in the Ask Black People Anything thread as I know we've had this discussion a few times before:lol:

I don't know about European places....I don't live there. :shrug:

If I was to guess, the situations probably aren't that different just the way people talk, react or admit to them are different but I don't know that for fact...it would be a guess.

Rocketta
Jul 6th, 2005, 04:25 AM
Haha, Joie you know if a black person has light eyes they have to be mixed. ;)

DemWilliamsGulls
Jul 6th, 2005, 04:44 AM
To me, Tiger Woods wouldn't actually qualify as black. Only when I came to America did anybody remotely close to black, no matter how white their skin color, have to identify as black.

In Nigeria, anybody who is not black as an African is automatically white, no matter how little white they have in them. So Tiger is white. Hell even Venus and Serena are white.

But...I see this as a matter of different contexts. It's not all Tiger's fault, he's just being technically correct.


Okay...tell that to BUD who said we are going to eat chitterling, collard greens and sweet potatoe pie...when Tiger beat him in that tournament.......Now ask yourself again...Tiger woods is what now?????? Boo this is not Nigeria..this is America...and if your hair is course, your skin is darker than a latino, asian or white person...then you are Black baby..thats what people will see VISUALLY..I guarantee you if Tiger Woods was not a pro golf player and he filled out a job application....select his ethnicity, his ass would select Black/African American because thats what everyone see him as. If you did not know anything about Tiger's race..you would automatically and VISUALLY identify him as a black man....and you know it. Its not about how many drops of black black in you...its about identifying who you are and not dis-owning your hertitage...and thats what "we" were not to kosher about with Tiger.

VeraNuVirgosFan
Jul 6th, 2005, 05:17 AM
as HOT as she was, I think she was too dark for the Tiger
For Tiger, it seems even a white girlfriend isn't good enough because she must also be a blonde.

RVD
Jul 6th, 2005, 08:36 AM
:haha: The way Tiger Woods defines his blackness, is the exact same way I describe non-dairy creamer...

It looks like milk and tastes like milk. And when you put it in your coffee, it swirls like milk. But everybody knows it ain't milk. :tape: :lol:

No Name Face
Jul 6th, 2005, 11:31 AM
that guy in the mariah carey video is mixed!?

wow. he looks completely white. but i guess that's the whole point, you can only go by what people tell you...

my grandma (on my dad's - black side) has bright blue eyes. crazy, right? I think it's cool though and so does everyone that sees her. They're like...as bright as Vanessa Williams's eyes.

servenrichie
Jul 6th, 2005, 12:41 PM
To me, Tiger Woods wouldn't actually qualify as black. Only when I came to America did anybody remotely close to black, no matter how white their skin color, have to identify as black.

In Nigeria, anybody who is not black as an African is automatically white, no matter how little white they have in them. So Tiger is white. Hell even Venus and Serena are white.

But...I see this as a matter of different contexts. It's not all Tiger's fault, he's just being technically correct.
That is not entirely true La Reine, what do you call the Fulanis?
They have long hair and light skin. Dont mistake the fact that, we call the Lebanese (all over Nigeria) white as the same thing as calling any person with lighter skin white, hell the calabar girls are all light-skined, as well as some Igbo girls. They are not being refered to as whites:(

servenrichie
Jul 6th, 2005, 12:54 PM
:confused: I'm from the USA, and I don't understand why a half-black person
necessarily has to be considered black. They are just as much white as
they are black, and should be able to chose which heritage they want
to embrace, without being looked down at by blacks for not going the
African-American route, or by whites as being pseudo white. It's never
made sense to me. With reference to Vanessa Williams, that woman
looks more caucasian than I do! (I'm of Polish/Bohemian heritage) She
looks WAY more white than she looks black, IMHO. :eek:
Unfortunately, in the western world not only in America, if you have a drop of black blood, then you are black. Any analyses whether you are mixed only comes in, when you have made it big. It is sickening, but that is how it is.
In Germany, little mixed kids come back from school crying, because their playmates called them "******". Dont mind that those little kids are fair and often have light blond hair. My advice, if you have a mixed child with black blood, make him/her to accept the black heritage first, the rest will come later. If the child resist black heritage first, he/she is in for a long bumby dissapointment in life, where he/she will end up not knowing where they belong to.
For people who never had to go through this, I konw it is fucking unbelievable, but that is how it is.

servenrichie
Jul 6th, 2005, 01:18 PM
...as for Tiger, the people defending him here says it all. Those same people are likely to criticise "afro-centricity" of V & S:confused:

servenrichie
Jul 6th, 2005, 01:19 PM
:haha: The way Tiger Woods defines his blackness, is the exact same way I describe non-dairy creamer...

It looks like milk and tastes like milk. And when you put it in your coffee, it swirls like milk. But everybody knows it ain't milk. :tape: :lol:
Tht sums it up nicely:lol:

lizchris
Jul 6th, 2005, 02:09 PM
well the jig is up on Jennifer....:lol: Now for the most part she only gets "mixed girl" parts. ;)

Every since 1988, that's true.