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View Full Version : Serious Discussion: Are the Russians a Level Below the Fab Five??


Foot_Fault
Jul 4th, 2005, 03:14 PM
Fabulous Five
Serena Williams - 7 Slams
Venus Williams - 5 Slams
Justine H-Hardenne- 4 Slams
Lindsay Davenport- 3 Slams
Kim Clijsters- 4x Slam RU

The Russian Assault
Maria Sharapova - 1 Slam
Svete Kuznetsova- 1 Slam (Current Holder)
Anastasia Myskina- 1 Slam
Elena Dementieva- 2x Slam RU
Nadia Petrova
Dinara Safina
Elena Likhotseva
Elena Bovina
and 900 Others


OK, The Russians DOMINATED 2004. There was a huge void on tour with the Willi's and Belguims injured and not playing well during that year. Not at the level where we expected them. Davenport didnt turn it on till late in the summer. We were all surprised by how well they all played last year and they truly took advantaged (IMO) of weak fields and sub par play for the people we all expected to do well.

Are they a level Below the Fab 5? 2005 has been Very telling. With most of the Top Players coming back in shape....It's no doubt the Russians are contending, but where are all the dominating wins we've expected. Kim, Serena, and Lindsay have been cutting them off at the hip so-to-speak in the major tournaments. It seems as if Sharapova has broke away from the pack yet....Dementieva, Myskina, Petrova and other Russians are not far behind her. But 2005 Has seen some sort of an ORDER RESTORING type of year w/ Serena winning OZ, Justine winning FO, and Venus winning WB and there are no Russians in sight besides Maria(who's american by default).

Will the Russians re-eclipse women's tennis with the Fab Five all healthy? What has contributed to their Fall? Will they rise again or just Maintain that Contenders card?

ezekiel
Jul 4th, 2005, 03:27 PM
How many variations of the same thread can there be? :banghead:
Russians are here and have been coming strong but there is a correction time when the old guard pulls their tricks. Road to the top is never easy, unless your name is steffie graf and your competition is a bunch of 30 year olds. All the russians are young anyway so don't judge them too early.

Derek.
Jul 4th, 2005, 03:29 PM
The Russians have just began their era. Rome wasn't built in a day.

Doc
Jul 4th, 2005, 03:31 PM
Yes. the Fabulous Five have had a lot longer to gather their honours, so bare totals are not comparable.

This year the Old guard have had their comebacks, and most of the Russians have dropped off in form. Maria has done better, but has met some tough performers at their best at crucial times. The future however for the Russians looks better.

Foot_Fault
Jul 4th, 2005, 03:33 PM
The Russians have just began their era. Rome wasn't built in a day.
so can we fault the media for making the public and tennis fans feel that the Russian Domination of a year ago would eclispe all other armada's in tennis?
Yeah Most of them are young from ages 29-18 but...aren't those tennis prime ages?

We have all been lead to believe that they HAVE arrive, Not Arriving.

No Name Face
Jul 4th, 2005, 03:34 PM
Russians are here to stay.

sartrista7
Jul 4th, 2005, 03:34 PM
In years to come, 2004 will be seen as just an hors-d'oeuvre. The main course is yet to come, and make no mistake, it's full of Russian cooking :)

The answer, btw, is because Kuznetsova is having a sophomore slump, which all great players do; Sharapova is in fact performing above expectations by NOT having a sophomore slump; and Myskina's performances this year have nothing to do with what she's capable of, given that she's been struck by family tragedy. Pete Sampras took three years after his first breakthrough to win his second Slam. ASV and Mary Pierce took five years. Serena took three years. Different players adjust to life among the elite at different rates.

Derek.
Jul 4th, 2005, 03:41 PM
There are a few young Russians up and coming in the juniors who could make big news.

Anastasia Pavlyuchenkova
Maria Mokh
Alisa Kleybanova
Ekaterina Makarova
Ekaterina Kosminskaya
Evgeniya Rodina
Elena Chernyakova

Plus in a year or two, I think the likes of Kirilenko, Chakvetadze, Douchevina, Linetskaya, Safina will become a force as well.

Kart
Jul 4th, 2005, 03:41 PM
Sharapova has been a force to reckon with this year on all but clay and one point more for Sveta could have given us a different French open champion this year.

Both are still teenagers so I'd expect them to challenge the 'fabulous five' as you put it in years to come.

In a sense they've achieved slam wins before their time.

Lady
Jul 4th, 2005, 03:43 PM
Foot_Fault, just a minute ago in the other thread you were saying how Petrova, Kuznetsova, Sharapova are all above Justine on all surfaces exept clay, be consistent.

Derek.
Jul 4th, 2005, 03:46 PM
Sharapova has been a force to reckon with this year on all but clay and one point more for Sveta could have given us a different French open champion this year.

Both are still teenagers so I'd expect them to challenge the 'fabulous five' as you put it in years to come.

In a sense they've achieved slam wins before their time.

Kuznetsova is 20.

_LuCaS_
Jul 4th, 2005, 03:50 PM
Kuznetsova is 20.
Actually she's only 20 :lol:

Kart
Jul 4th, 2005, 03:53 PM
Kuznetsova is 20.

In that case it's time for retirement.

skanky~skanketta
Jul 4th, 2005, 04:00 PM
Foot_Fault, just a minute ago in the other thread you were saying how Petrova, Kuznetsova, Sharapova are all above Justine on all surfaces exept clay, be consistent.:haha:

Foot_Fault
Jul 4th, 2005, 04:00 PM
Foot_Fault, just a minute ago in the other thread you were saying how Petrova, Kuznetsova, Sharapova are all above Justine on all surfaces exept clay, be consistent.

i really didnt think you would be one to Lie. I said...that Kuzzy can beat Justine on HardCourt. Petrova PROVED she can Beat Justine on HardCourt, Sharapova PROVED she can Beat Justine On Hard Court. I NEVER SAID the phrase ALL SURFACES.

You really want an argument huh? I dont engage in that. If we can't discuss like adults(maybe you're not, i dont know) then we can cease reply. Dont follow me around Lying. I never said ALL SURFACES xcept Clay. We were talking about one surface THE US OPEN which is Hard Tru. Me Being consistent? You stop Lying. SHAME ON YOU!:o

GogoGirl
Jul 4th, 2005, 04:01 PM
Hey All,

The second page of article just shows all the Wimby winners.

July 4, 2005 latimes.com : Sports : Tennis Single page Print E-mail story

Sisters Shifting Balance of Power From Russia
By Lisa Dillman, Times Staff Writer


WIMBLEDON, England — Revolution, interrupted.

So, what of the Russian Revolution in women's tennis? Three of the four Grand Slam events are completed, meaning it's time for an update after the Russians took three of the four majors in 2004.

ADVERTISEMENT

The numbers: Williams Family 2, Russians 0.

The number of Grand Slam titles in the Williams household in 2005 doubled when Venus completed an astonishing career restoration project, defeating defending champion Maria Sharapova of Russia in the semifinals and Lindsay Davenport, 4-6, 7-6 (4), 9-7, in one of the best women's finals at Wimbledon. Serena Williams defeated Davenport in the Australian Open final in January. Belguim's Justine Henin-Hardenne took the French Open in May.

Here, Davenport served for the title in the second set and was broken at love, and Venus Williams saved a match point in the third set. No wonder Williams' mother, Oracene Price, said she felt "emotionally drained" after watching the final.

Is this just a temporary resurfacing for Venus, or does this mean there is yet another player in the increasingly crowded mix for the year's final major, the U.S. Open?

"Without a doubt. This is just the thing she needed," said former No. 1 Tracy Austin, who is working here for the BBC. "Just beating Sharapova, she was back. She needed something to get over the hump, beating Maria and the way she did it."

The Russians are well behind the pace of 2004. Sharapova has done the best this year, reaching two Grand Slam semifinals and a quarterfinal.

In 2004, Venus Williams did not come close to contending. Her era of dominance seemed over — her last Grand Slam title coming at the U.S. Open in 2001 — and the questioning grew pointed this year when she lost in the fourth round of the Australian Open and the third round of the French Open.

But doubts did not extend to Williams' family members.

"No. She may have a little bit, but I didn't," Price said. "I knew what she's got in her."

Williams would never admit such a fact but gave hints of how difficult it was to deal with the hard times, the injuries and the shooting death of her older half sister, Yetunde Price, in 2003.

"Last year was a tough year because I had a lot of injuries, even before the Olympics, and I was always getting sick too and never could train," Williams said. "When I went on the court, I had so much to think about: 'Is your racket back? Are you on the baseline? Are you looking at the ball?'

"I had all this stuff, and I wasn't really ready, so it was very tough to play."

She was helped in that grass-court tennis is a game of instinct, which was on display for a riveting 2 hours 45 minutes against Davenport, the longest Wimbledon women's final. In fact, they played 64 minutes longer than Roger Federer and Andy Roddick did in Sunday's final.

Equal prize money, anyone? Williams was busy on that issue, speaking with her racket Saturday and speaking with members of the Grand Slam Committee on Friday about the matter. Wimbledon and the French Open are the Grand Slam events that don't offer women equal money.

Williams joined WTA Tour Chief Executive Larry Scott at the meeting, even though it was the day before the final.

"A lot of times, they probably think that Larry is trying to put a point across that is maybe his agenda, but it isn't," Williams told a small group of U.S. reporters Saturday.

"The women players, we feel we're very much deserving of this. I think the modern world, all constitutions say there shouldn't be discrimination based on religion or sex or race or any of those things, and I think it's time to put an end to it because we're in the modern world.

"We shouldn't be arguing whether or not someone played five sets or what. Let's face it. If women played five sets, none of these tournaments would ever finish. In fact, playing three sets is tougher because you don't have time to re-gather. You have to play good right away. In that way, it's probably more stressful."

CONTINUED 1 2 next >>
Single page

http://www.latimes.com/sports/tennis/la-sp-tenwomen4jul04,1,4598143.story?coll=la-headlines-sports-tennis

Foot_Fault
Jul 4th, 2005, 04:04 PM
Hey All,

The second page of article just shows all the Wimby winners.

July 4, 2005 latimes.com : Sports : Tennis Single page Print E-mail story

Sisters Shifting Balance of Power From Russia
By Lisa Dillman, Times Staff Writer


WIMBLEDON, England — Revolution, interrupted.

So, what of the Russian Revolution in women's tennis? Three of the four Grand Slam events are completed, meaning it's time for an update after the Russians took three of the four majors in 2004.

ADVERTISEMENT

The numbers: Williams Family 2, Russians 0.

The number of Grand Slam titles in the Williams household in 2005 doubled when Venus completed an astonishing career restoration project, defeating defending champion Maria Sharapova of Russia in the semifinals and Lindsay Davenport, 4-6, 7-6 (4), 9-7, in one of the best women's finals at Wimbledon. Serena Williams defeated Davenport in the Australian Open final in January. Belguim's Justine Henin-Hardenne took the French Open in May.

Here, Davenport served for the title in the second set and was broken at love, and Venus Williams saved a match point in the third set. No wonder Williams' mother, Oracene Price, said she felt "emotionally drained" after watching the final.

Is this just a temporary resurfacing for Venus, or does this mean there is yet another player in the increasingly crowded mix for the year's final major, the U.S. Open?

"Without a doubt. This is just the thing she needed," said former No. 1 Tracy Austin, who is working here for the BBC. "Just beating Sharapova, she was back. She needed something to get over the hump, beating Maria and the way she did it."

The Russians are well behind the pace of 2004. Sharapova has done the best this year, reaching two Grand Slam semifinals and a quarterfinal.

In 2004, Venus Williams did not come close to contending. Her era of dominance seemed over — her last Grand Slam title coming at the U.S. Open in 2001 — and the questioning grew pointed this year when she lost in the fourth round of the Australian Open and the third round of the French Open.

But doubts did not extend to Williams' family members.

"No. She may have a little bit, but I didn't," Price said. "I knew what she's got in her."

Williams would never admit such a fact but gave hints of how difficult it was to deal with the hard times, the injuries and the shooting death of her older half sister, Yetunde Price, in 2003.

"Last year was a tough year because I had a lot of injuries, even before the Olympics, and I was always getting sick too and never could train," Williams said. "When I went on the court, I had so much to think about: 'Is your racket back? Are you on the baseline? Are you looking at the ball?'

"I had all this stuff, and I wasn't really ready, so it was very tough to play."

She was helped in that grass-court tennis is a game of instinct, which was on display for a riveting 2 hours 45 minutes against Davenport, the longest Wimbledon women's final. In fact, they played 64 minutes longer than Roger Federer and Andy Roddick did in Sunday's final.

Equal prize money, anyone? Williams was busy on that issue, speaking with her racket Saturday and speaking with members of the Grand Slam Committee on Friday about the matter. Wimbledon and the French Open are the Grand Slam events that don't offer women equal money.

Williams joined WTA Tour Chief Executive Larry Scott at the meeting, even though it was the day before the final.

"A lot of times, they probably think that Larry is trying to put a point across that is maybe his agenda, but it isn't," Williams told a small group of U.S. reporters Saturday.

"The women players, we feel we're very much deserving of this. I think the modern world, all constitutions say there shouldn't be discrimination based on religion or sex or race or any of those things, and I think it's time to put an end to it because we're in the modern world.

"We shouldn't be arguing whether or not someone played five sets or what. Let's face it. If women played five sets, none of these tournaments would ever finish. In fact, playing three sets is tougher because you don't have time to re-gather. You have to play good right away. In that way, it's probably more stressful."

CONTINUED 1 2 next >>
Single page

http://www.latimes.com/sports/tennis/la-sp-tenwomen4jul04,1,4598143.story?coll=la-headlines-sports-tennis


OMG:worship: :worship: Xcelent Article.

I feel JUSTIFIED. LOL

Pureracket
Jul 4th, 2005, 04:06 PM
Lookit Vee trying to be all political:


Williams joined WTA Tour Chief Executive Larry Scott at the meeting, even though it was the day before the final.

"A lot of times, they probably think that Larry is trying to put a point across that is maybe his agenda, but it isn't," Williams told a small group of U.S. reporters Saturday.

"The women players, we feel we're very much deserving of this. I think the modern world, all constitutions say there shouldn't be discrimination based on religion or sex or race or any of those things, and I think it's time to put an end to it because we're in the modern world.

"We shouldn't be arguing whether or not someone played five sets or what. Let's face it. If women played five sets, none of these tournaments would ever finish. In fact, playing three sets is tougher because you don't have time to re-gather. You have to play good right away. In that way, it's probably more stressful."

GogoGirl
Jul 4th, 2005, 04:10 PM
All,

Here Venus mentions her sister Yetunde and her fried chicken. We knew she took it hard. Bless her heart.

Positive vibe is the key for Venus

Williams banishes the dark days with a third triumph completing the unlikeliest of comebacks

Stephen Bierley at Wimbledon
Monday July 4, 2005
The Guardian

Negativity has always been anathema in the Williams household. "We were never allowed to say that we couldn't do something, otherwise we got into trouble," said a tired but radiant Venus Williams on Saturday evening. "There are so many people who want to put you down, so many people who thrive on negativity, so many people who are excited to see a story like that."
There was no bitterness, no recriminations, no gloating. She had left her public statement on court. She was Wimbledon champion again, and all those who had suggested that the elder, more cerebral, of sisters was washed up and finished were left marvelling at her ability to confound the lot of them.


Article continues

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just a few hours after she had beaten Lindsay Davenport 4-6, 7-6, 9-7 to become the Wimbledon singles champion for the third time, and win her fifth grand slam title, just two short of her sister Serena, Williams talked quietly and purposefully about the hard times. "You keep believing, even though you are finding it difficult to do the right thing at the right moment. Some times I was a little hard on myself, while at other times I had to congratulate myself, whether I played my best or not."
All those around her, and most particularly her father, Richard, her mother, Oracene, and Serena, had always stayed ultra-positive. Not for one instant did they stop encouraging her to believe that despite a succession of injuries, dating back two years, she would eventually re-discover the form that before the emergence of her younger sister had lifted her to the pinnacle of the women's game.

The hurt has been huge, the more so because Venus has always internalised her problems. Having finally all but freed herself of injury, she arrived at the French Open last month determined to make a clear statement of intent, only to lose early against the 15-year-Bulgarian Sesil Karatantcheva of Bulgaria, then ranked No98 in the world.

Once again Williams appeared a peripheral figure on the world scene. "I think I just thought ahead too much. I knew I could win, I knew I could do it and just didn't concentrate really on the round I was in. That hurt me a lot," she admitted.

The semi-final victory here over Russia's Maria Sharapova, the reigning champion, was of immense proportions, so much so that for well into a women's final lasting 2hrs 45min - the longest ever - the mental and physical exertions of that win had clearly taken their toll.

Yet here were shades of this year's Australian Open final when Serena, having also defeated Sharapova in an equally brutal semi-final, almost succumbed to Davenport's heavy hitting.

However, on that occasion Davenport never appeared to hold the belief that she could win. Against Williams on Saturday - despite back problems in the third set - she hung tough. "But Venus was just incredible. Whenever I felt I was just about to shut the door completely it was 'Oops, let's open that back up'," Davenport said.

The sheer exuberance of Williams's post-match joy may ultimately be remembered far longer than the match which, while being compulsively dramatic in the third set, after she had saved a match point in the second, was too lacking in contrast to be labelled great.

The dichotomy in the modern women's game is that the more feminine become the fashions, and the more frothy the off-court interviews that major on shopping and clothes, so the more unbendingly powerful, not to say brittle, becomes the tennis. There is little place left for subtlety, while the increasingly number of injuries continues to be a major problem.

The question will now be asked as to whether, having won her first slam since Wimbledon 2001, Williams can win more majors. Given her performance against Sharapova and Davenport there appears no reason why she should not. "It takes a strong person to come back to winning things again. A strong will, and determination. You've seen Serena has that will, but maybe you haven't seen it in Venus because she's more quiet," said Oracene.

Unlike Serena, she does not have as many off-court distractions as some have supposed. Commercially these are limited to a small interior design firm she owns in Florida, although obviously playing tennis is not her be all and end all. "I wake up in the morning, go to practice, go to the gym, train, and give my best effort. The other things that I do are because it makes me happy. I think my world also is as real as it gets."

Venus, like Serena, will always limit the number of tournaments she plays outside the slams, although there is some irony in the fact that too often over the last two years she had tried to play through injuries, thereby re-injuring herself, and not being able to regain her form.

Apart from a shoulder problem, which apparently continued to trouble her in Paris, she has been relatively healthy this year, which has allowed her to practise properly. And that is the primary reason she won the final on Saturday.

Her family and her religion have been integral, but above all else, like her sister, Venus needed to be fit to underline what an extremely fine player she is. And women's tennis is far more exciting and vibrant for having her back at the top of their powers.

On Friday, wearing her professional cap, Williams argued forcibly on the merits of equal pay at the French Open and Wimbledon. On Saturday night, in a touchingly intimate moment, she spoke fondly of her murdered half-sister Yetunde, remembering the way she cooked fried chicken "better than my Mom" and all the laughs they had. The Williams world is a world of contrasts, and tennis is the richer for it.

The wonder of Williams

·Venus Williams is the lowest seed (14) to have won the women's singles title.

·She is only the fifth player to have won three women's singles titles in the open era - after Billie Jean King, Chris Evert, Martina Navratilova and Steffi Graf.

·Williams passed career prize-money of $15m with her victory.

·No other woman has come from match point down to win Wimbledon in the open era. She is only the fourth ever to have done so. The others are Blanche Bingley Hillyard (1889), Suzanne Lenglen (1919) and Helen Wills Moody (1935).

·Only three women have had a longer wait between grand slam titles than Williams. Her three-year 10-month gap between winning the 2001 US Open and the 2005 Wimbledon is exceeded only by the delays endured by Hana Mandlikova, Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario and Virginia Wade. The Briton had an eight-year 10-month wait between winning the 1968 US Open and the 1977 Wimbledon.

Match stats

Williams v Davenport

74% first serves in 68%

4 aces 5

10 double faults 5

29 unforced errors 27

67% 1st serves won 61%

47% 2nd serves won 53%

49 winners 30

42% points v serve 38%

4/8 break points won 4/12

79% net approaches 69%

129 total points won 119

117mph fastest serve 112mph

105mph ave 1st serve 105mph

87mph ave 2nd serve 95mph


http://sport.guardian.co.uk/wimbledon2005/story/0,16055,1520769,00.html

joz
Jul 4th, 2005, 05:24 PM
[QUOTE=Foot_Fault]Fabulous Five
Are they a level Below the Fab 5? QUOTE]

Too many intangiables here... you're comparing careers to the last two years and there are not clear stats to base your info on.


You've got a 29-year-old #1 player (and she deserves it) who hasn't won a slam in more than 5 years in your Fab five list. She's only won three in 29 years, and the first came when she was 22.

You're touting "fab five" players for cutting the Russians off ... yet ignoring that your fab 5 also had these results... Henin 1R Wimbledon, V. Williams 3R French and 4R Aust., Clijsters 4R Wimbledon and French, Davenport Q French, S. Williams 3R Wimbledon... Not to mention the number of GS this year where they didn't play...Kim/Justine no Aussie, Serena no French.

You've got people in the Fab 5 who aren't even in the top 5 let alone top ten at the moment.

When you look at consistancy... you could tout Lindsey so far 1 Semi, 1 Quarter and 1 RU, and Sharapova 2 Semis 1 Quarter this year, and though not in a way she'd want... but consistant none the less, Dementiava 4th round at all three slams this year.

Fingon
Jul 4th, 2005, 06:56 PM
i really didnt think you would be one to Lie. I said...that Kuzzy can beat Justine on HardCourt. Petrova PROVED she can Beat Justine on HardCourt, Sharapova PROVED she can Beat Justine On Hard Court. I NEVER SAID the phrase ALL SURFACES.

You really want an argument huh? I dont engage in that. If we can't discuss like adults(maybe you're not, i dont know) then we can cease reply. Dont follow me around Lying. I never said ALL SURFACES xcept Clay. We were talking about one surface THE US OPEN which is Hard Tru. Me Being consistent? You stop Lying. SHAME ON YOU!:o

Petrova proved? what did she prove, that she can beat an exhausted virus ridden Justine? right.

Fingon
Jul 4th, 2005, 06:59 PM
Foot_Fault, just a minute ago in the other thread you were saying how Petrova, Kuznetsova, Sharapova are all above Justine on all surfaces exept clay, be consistent.

Kind of clear, this thread was really meant to compare the Russians with Venus and Serena, and praise Venus and Serena, but he couldn't leave current # 1 Davenport and FO champion Justine out without looking too biased. I think Kim as added to run out the numbers (kind of weird that he mentions the # of GS title as a proof of the greatness of the fabulous five and the mentions Kim's 4 final opposing the one GS win of 3 of the Russians)

Knizzle
Jul 4th, 2005, 07:02 PM
Maria is a top player to stay, I don't think she should be discredited like this.

SJW
Jul 4th, 2005, 07:03 PM
sport is full of ups and downs. at the moment the fab five are in better standing. who knows what will happen for the rest of the year.

i think the fab five are better than the Russians player for player right now. but the Ruskis are still improving

Lady
Jul 4th, 2005, 08:53 PM
i really didnt think you would be one to Lie. I said...that Kuzzy can beat Justine on HardCourt. Petrova PROVED she can Beat Justine on HardCourt, Sharapova PROVED she can Beat Justine On Hard Court. I NEVER SAID the phrase ALL SURFACES.

You really want an argument huh? I dont engage in that. If we can't discuss like adults(maybe you're not, i dont know) then we can cease reply. Dont follow me around Lying. I never said ALL SURFACES xcept Clay. We were talking about one surface THE US OPEN which is Hard Tru. Me Being consistent? You stop Lying. SHAME ON YOU!:o

There're 3 surfaces on WTA Tour - clay, hard, grass.
In the other thread you were implying that Justine can't beat healthy Petrova, Kuznetsova, Sharapova, Davenport or any other on hard, you said it. It's not hard to add grass here too as it's a faster surface. So that leaves clay for Justine.
I can see what you mean, you're kinda easy really.

VeeReeDavJCap81
Jul 4th, 2005, 08:55 PM
Maria is a top player to stay, I don't think she should be discredited like this.

I agree, she belongs in the top 3.

ali
Jul 4th, 2005, 09:03 PM
I think Sharapova should be part of the "fab 5" above Kim, but what do I know?

Also it would rather spoil the whole fab 5 v Russians angle I guess!! ;)

Spunky83
Jul 4th, 2005, 09:25 PM
A lot of blaaaaaaaah going around in this forum...we´ll wait and see. The future is not settled yet;)

safinforlife
Jul 4th, 2005, 09:36 PM
YES! the russians are way below the fab 5 i only see maybe sharapova winning another slam.

Zippy
Jul 4th, 2005, 09:57 PM
I think Sharapova should be part of the "fab 5" above Kim, but what do I know?

Also it would rather spoil the whole fab 5 v Russians angle I guess!! ;)
Are you serious??

If so why, cause she (Maria's) won a Slam? Oh, I forgot...there's ONLY 4 Tournaments a year, and if you don't win any of them, than you ain't shyt. Let's just disregard that she's 3-0 vs Maria. Oh darn I forgot again... those sort of wins don't matter, unless it's for the championship of one of the 4 "Real" Titles. She may as well through her YEC's, IW's and Nasdaq-100 titles away, since that obviously don't mean shyt.
:rolleyes:

Knizzle
Jul 4th, 2005, 10:00 PM
Are you serious??

If so why, cause she (Maria's) won a Slam? Oh, I forgot...there's ONLY 4 Tournaments a year, and if you don't win any of them, than you ain't shyt. Let's just disregard that she's 3-0 vs Maria. Oh darn I forgot again... those sort of wins don't matter, unless it's for the championship of one of the 4 "Real" Titles. She may as well through her YEC's, IW's and Nasdaq-100 titles away, since that obviously don't mean shyt.
:rolleyes:

I see your point, but if you can't capitalize on the big moments on tour then all those other titles don't seem that great. I'd trade all those titles for just one slam. Yes Kim is 3-0 against Maria, but check Maria's records against the other top players then check Kim's. Maria is more likely to beat everyone else than Kim is.

LindsayRocks89
Jul 4th, 2005, 10:04 PM
i think when Serena, Venus, Lindsay, and justine are playing well that beats Maria, but Maria ofcourse i'm sure will win more slams and she is already a proven champion.

sartrista7
Jul 4th, 2005, 10:12 PM
YES! the russians are way below the fab 5 i only see maybe sharapova winning another slam.

You probably didn't "see" Nastya and Sveta winning Slams in the first place, though. And you were wrong about that, too :lol:

harloo
Jul 4th, 2005, 10:21 PM
I feel Sharapova is the real deal, but she will have to incorporate other elements to her game besides all power shots. Time is on her side, she is only 18. She has to learn how to deal with the pressure of expectations because as the annointed blond princess of the WTA she is starting to feel it.

The only other Russian I think can be dangerous and have a lasting career at the top contending for slams is Sveta. She is very dangerous and has a powerful forehand, can serve and volley also. It will be interesting to see how she does, she almost upset Justine at the FO.

The rest of the Russians are good players with pretty solid strokes which makes for good competition, but I don't think any of them will upcoming slams. JMO.

ali
Jul 4th, 2005, 10:51 PM
Are you serious??

If so why, cause she (Maria's) won a Slam? Oh, I forgot...there's ONLY 4 Tournaments a year, and if you don't win any of them, than you ain't shyt. Let's just disregard that she's 3-0 vs Maria. Oh darn I forgot again... those sort of wins don't matter, unless it's for the championship of one of the 4 "Real" Titles. She may as well through her YEC's, IW's and Nasdaq-100 titles away, since that obviously don't mean shyt.
:rolleyes:
Err, yes I was serious actually, really no need to jump down my throat. I feel like whenever I say anything positive about Maria, Venus or Serena recently, I should include a tag line about how I'm not really a fan of any of the players concerned (Mary all the way!) and I'm just trying to be objective.

Right now, I think Maria has to be included in the big 5 (if you want to narrow it down to just 5). She's number 2 in the world, a GS winner, 2 semis and still only really at the start of her career. She's made huge leaps forward in a year and I think there is more prestige for the players in beating her than Kim right now. That's not to say that I don't think Kim is a fantastic player and I genuinely hope she has a good US Open.

Just my opinion.

Zippy
Jul 4th, 2005, 11:17 PM
First off let me say agin that respect Maria's game ALOT, and I feel that she's one of the 6 best players in the world. I've frequenty stated that (in no order) Kim, JuJu, Linds, Masha, Rena, & Vee are the best players in the world, with Momo right behind them, then Sveta after her.

Anyways one interesting thing I just realized is that Maria has ONLY (minus Schnyder) lost to the players of the Fab Five. Yup, at least one lost to each one of them this year. Well I say the best only losses to the best, which proves she's one of them :cool:

fammmmedspin
Jul 4th, 2005, 11:46 PM
Fact is Justine, Serena, Kim and Venus have all demonstrated that they can be fabolous one day and losing due to illness, injury, bizarre chokes, lack of fitness or umpteen other causes the next week. Maria is understandably not as mentally tough as she was in 2004. Momo and Lindsay are fine until mentally or physically they fail to get the big win.

From a Russian perspective thats a big problem because someone who can beat the best Russian is likely to manage to perform in every GS - if we are lucky two might do it in the same GS. Its also quite promising for the future though. Age is on the Russians side as people retire and new Russians are already visible..Chokes, recurrent illnesses, injury and lost big matches will take their toll on the intermittently fabulous top 5 or 6. The Russians are also unlikely to continue to suffer from a collective collapse of form and have a lot of younger players on the way to add to the threats lurking for the sometimes fab five in the early rounds. At some point the draws are going to go their way and you will find Russians who can beat the fab 5 being drawn against them and Russians who can beat Russians finding Russians lining their route to the final.

Shonami Slam
Jul 4th, 2005, 11:50 PM
only by naming true giants of the modern game such as the williamses, davenport, henin and kim, that shared the number1 spot for so long these past few years, that you make the russians look bad - and that shows you how strong they have become in our sub-conscience.

Jakeev
Jul 5th, 2005, 12:16 AM
Here is a look at how Russia's top-ten players have done so far in 2005. Look at their win/loss records and you decide how they have done this year. (WTA ranking is in parenthesis)

1. (2) Maria Sharapova: 41-7. (only Russian player in 05 so far to have advanced in the quarters or better of all of her tournaments; has won 3 titles, including 1 Tier 1)

2. (4) Svetlana Kuznetsova: 25-11.

3. (5) Elena Dementieva: 25-10. (defaulted in Sydney)

4. (9) Nadia Petrova: 35-12. (defaulted in Gold Coast&Rome)

5. (10) Anastasia Myskina: 13-12. (Also won three matches at Hopman Cup)

6. (15) Vera Zvonareva: 17-13. (won Memphis)

7. (16) Elena Likhovtseva: 19-14.

8. (17) Elena Bovina: 13-8

9. (27) Dinara Safina: 21-12 (won Paris and Prague)

10. (31) Vera Douchevina: 20-13 (10 of those matches were in qualifying)

There you have it folks. You make your decision.

ali
Jul 5th, 2005, 12:22 AM
Here is a look at how Russia's top-ten players have done so far in 2005. Look at their win/loss records and you decide how they have done this year. (WTA ranking is in parenthesis)
..........
There you have it folks. You make your decision.

Thanks Jakeev :)
But I guess we need the same for the "fab five" to compare

jamatthews
Jul 5th, 2005, 12:40 AM
Maybe H2H might be better, but I think the only Russians to have beaten any of the Fab 5 this year are Sharapova and Kuznetsova.

Kuznetsova is 1-5 against the Fab 5 this year...
Sharapova is 3-6 against the Fab 5 this year...

joz
Jul 5th, 2005, 12:45 AM
Why not consider the # of titles this year:

Davey 2
Shara 3
Momo 2
Kuzzie 0
Lena D 0
Serena 1
Henin 4
Venus 2
Petrova 0
Myskina 0
Clijsters 3

So if you look at this years titles the Fab 5 should be Henin, Clijsters, Sharapova, and a tie with Momo and Venus and Davey... Edge could go to V for winning GS, or Davey for having the better record at GS's.

jamatthews
Jul 5th, 2005, 12:49 AM
Also this year:

Davenport against F5+Maria 4-5 (including 1 loss by retirement)
Serena against F5+Maria 2-1
Justine against F5+Maria 3-1 (including 1 win by retirement)
Venus against F5+Maria 4-2
Kim Against F5+Maria 2-3

sartrista7
Jul 5th, 2005, 01:03 AM
I don't think anyone is arguing that the Russians are better than the other five this year. It's no secret that they've been subpar. So these statistics are fairly pointless.

However, it would be a mistake to think that the Russians' results have regressed just because the old guard are back - there are valid individual reasons why each of them hasn't been able to match her 2004 record, and the signs that they will return to that level again in the future are promising.

Gowza
Jul 5th, 2005, 01:28 AM
atm i would say they are a level below, they find it difficult to get wins over those players but those players find it easier to get a win over the russians. but the russians are young, sharapova and kuznetsova imo have great potential to be at the top and compete with the top girls, dementieva is also one that may jump the gap to the top.

No Name Face
Jul 5th, 2005, 02:40 AM
everyone is once again writing off lenaD as a true contender for anything, and that's cool...but she is working on her serve and had some great finishes last season around this time. i really think she can take out anyone on her day and with a better serve, she'd easily be top 3 material. and that better serve is coming. i think lenaD has a great chance to win some titles and maybe the U.S. Open.

tennnisfannn
Jul 5th, 2005, 03:08 AM
when the williams and the belgians ruled the roost, the next tier of players were lindsay,amelie and jen. Take the top four out nad you ony expected lindsay, amelie and jen to take their place. jen got injured which left amleie and lindsay with every opportunity.
they should have won all the slams in 2004. But they didn't, the russians did! For that I will never take a swipe at the russians, they stepped it up and who is to say they are finished.
maria and kuzy are still very young and very solid top fivers.'
myskina is having a let down but she will be back!

Veritas
Jul 5th, 2005, 03:35 AM
everyone is once again writing off lenaD as a true contender for anything, and that's cool...but she is working on her serve and had some great finishes last season around this time. i really think she can take out anyone on her day and with a better serve, she'd easily be top 3 material. and that better serve is coming. i think lenaD has a great chance to win some titles and maybe the U.S. Open.

I don't think it's just 'the serve' that's troubling Lena. Her match against Myskina proved this - Lena didn't really have that many double faults and she should've taken advantage of that rare moment when she could capitalise on her good serving day and use her big groundies to hammer her opponent away. Instead, she choked and Myskina played very coolly on the points and moments that actually mattered: she controlled her unforced errors, made clean winners and waited for Lena to self-destruct. We can argue that all those years of poor serve and double faults have made her less confident and put a dent in her mental stability on the court (and against big returners) but she's only human and there are parts of her game that looks like it needs as much improvement as her serve. And the mental part of her game needs a lot of fine tuning as well, because she can't afford to choke, especially in those pre-QF stages. A GS title is not entirely out of the question, but with her current form, it's extremely unlikely.

Gowza
Jul 5th, 2005, 03:54 AM
dementieva's forehand was not working that day against myskina, she didnt go for it enough and when she did it was netted alot of the time, her current form is not as high as it was last year when she reached the slam finals. but she was in the final of RG last year then loses round 1 of wimbledon and then the final or us open, her form is unpredictable.

Veritas
Jul 5th, 2005, 03:58 AM
dementieva's forehand was not working that day against myskina, she didnt go for it enough and when she did it was netted alot of the time, her current form is not as high as it was last year when she reached the slam finals. but she was in the final of RG last year then loses round 1 of wimbledon and then the final or us open, her form is unpredictable.

I think she's at least worked on her consistency. There aren't any early round shock-exits so far this year, and she hasn't lost to sub-100-ranked qualifiers as well. Maybe she's a late bloomer...

Gowza
Jul 5th, 2005, 04:56 AM
i agree she has worked on her consistency for sure, but when it comes to the better players ie top 10 she's finding it tougher this year, kind of like kuznetsova atm, they cruise through the early rounds but when it comes to the latter rounds they find it tougher, just like zvonareva last year rarely lost to someone ranked below her but found it tough to beat someone ranked above her. last year dementieva was getting some big wins in the slams, this year she isnt, watching her matches it seems to be her form that isnt quite as good as last year which is making the difference.

bello
Jul 5th, 2005, 05:19 AM
The 'fab five' and Maria Sharapova anre the best 6 players in women's tennis...followed closely by Amelie, Jen and the rest of the Russians

Prizeidiot
Jul 5th, 2005, 06:54 AM
In all honesty, I will admit that the Russians are below the top 5... I mean, the gap isn't as big as many are saying (like, they're not a level below), but there is a difference. Maybe Maria should be with the Fab Five though based on her recent results.

I think however, that the big difference isn't so much in ability. It's in the head. The Fab Five believe they can win, no matter what. The Russians, although they are always a chance to win, sometimes the fail to believe this. Dementieva and Kuznetsova are probably the best examples of this, as much as it pains me to say it.

Orion
Jul 5th, 2005, 07:02 AM
I think the only ones who can really keep pace with the top 5 are Kuznetsova and Sharapova. Myskina and Dementieva benefitted the most from the top players being away, as neither handle power tremendously well. Petrova is fishy, because she serves very rhythmically and consistently, but seems to buckle mentally. Zvonereva isn't a threat to many anymore, and the rest don't seem to be moving fast enough. I expect the top ten for the next few years to include Henin, Clijsters, V. Williams, S. Williams, Sharapova, Kuznetsova, Mauresmo, and of course Davenport for a while, and the other spots varying between a solid and deep top 20, primarily Petrova and Molik, with Myskina, Dementieva, Ivanovic, Golovin, Safina, Vaidisova, and co. making up the top 20 players, with forays into top 10 land.

The most promising to win in the upcoming tournaments are Sharapova and Kuznetsova, with solid results from Dementieva, Myskina, Petrova. In five years or so, Kuznetsova, Petrova, Safina, Sharapova, and maybe a couple others will make up the head of the Russian charge.

Orion
Jul 5th, 2005, 07:15 AM
everyone is once again writing off lenaD as a true contender for anything, and that's cool...but she is working on her serve and had some great finishes last season around this time. i really think she can take out anyone on her day and with a better serve, she'd easily be top 3 material. and that better serve is coming. i think lenaD has a great chance to win some titles and maybe the U.S. Open.

That's a fair point, Dementieva has fantastic shot production, and if only her serve wasn't defective she would certainly be challenging more. The most deceptive numbers on tour right now are Kuznetsova and Dementieva's titles of 2005. They have the game, they're just hitting sophomore slump. Next year, if Dementieva gets her serve on song, I can see her edging the top 5 (with everyone fit). But her serve is such a liability. The one perk is that it is consistently poor, it doesn't get worse as the match progresses.

Best of luck to Dementieva and Kuznetsova as they carry the banner of Moscow and St. Petersburg!

pav
Jul 5th, 2005, 08:03 AM
It's strange how Myskina, Kuzy,etc. are always desribed as in slumps, but they will be back, but Zvonareva's drop in form this year is nearly always referred to like it is where She belongs, is She disliked that much just because She sheds the occasional tear?

Jakeev
Jul 5th, 2005, 10:17 AM
Thanks Jakeev :)
But I guess we need the same for the "fab five" to compare

Yup:

1. (1) Lindsay Davenport: 38-6 (default in Sydney; thus has been to the quarters or better of all her events. Won Dubai&Amelia Island)

2. (6) Serena Williams: 17-5 (default in paris; won Australian Open)

3. (7) Justine Henin-Hardenne: 27-2 ( won 4 titles, including French Open& two Tier 1's)

4. (8) Venus Williams: 28-7 (won 2 titles, including Wimbledon)

5. (14) Kim Clijsters: 32-5 (won three titles, including two Tier 1's)

furrykitten
Jul 5th, 2005, 10:25 AM
Only time you can judge the young Russains on how their careers will go is when they reach the age of 23/24, by this time if they are going to be great they will have won 3 or more Grand Slams. Then again saying that Roger Federer is 23 now and has only won 4 so far, yet people are saying he will become the greatest of all time.

Its obvious Maria Sharapova at the moment is the best prospect for potential greatness as her results this year have proved, Quarter Final or better in every tournament this year proves that. No one on the tour can boast this record yet due to either bad luck or poor play on the day she hasn't won a Slam this year but I think at 18 she has 12 years or more ahead of her to change that.

Jakeev
Jul 5th, 2005, 09:25 PM
Only time you can judge the young Russains on how their careers will go is when they reach the age of 23/24, by this time if they are going to be great they will have won 3 or more Grand Slams. Then again saying that Roger Federer is 23 now and has only won 4 so far, yet people are saying he will become the greatest of all time.

Its obvious Maria Sharapova at the moment is the best prospect for potential greatness as her results this year have proved, Quarter Final or better in every tournament this year proves that. No one on the tour can boast this record yet due to either bad luck or poor play on the day she hasn't won a Slam this year but I think at 18 she has 12 years or more ahead of her to change that.

But like you said Roger is only 23. He technically has years ahead of him to win twice as many if it happens. I don't think it matters how old you are in tennis in terms of how long it takes you to win multiple slams.

alfonsojose
Jul 5th, 2005, 09:29 PM
Slutina Threadchokova :inlove:

smarties
Jul 5th, 2005, 09:51 PM
Instead, she choked and Myskina played very coolly on the points and moments that actually mattered: she controlled her unforced errors, made clean winners and waited for Lena to self-destruct.

just one advice: go take a look at the stats from that match and get back to me :rolleyes:

Zippy
Jul 5th, 2005, 09:55 PM
Also this year:

Davenport against F5+Maria 4-5 (including 1 loss by retirement)
Serena against F5+Maria 2-1
Justine against F5+Maria 3-1 (including 1 win by retirement)
Venus against F5+Maria 4-2
Kim Against F5+Maria 2-4
:confused:
Clijsters is 32-5 this season, with the 5 losses comming to Lindsay x2, Venus, Sveta, and Schnyder (after Retiring while UP a set)

That makes her 2W-3L (with wins over #1 & #2 in the world) against the Fab 5 + Maria ;)

Just a little fyi :wavey:

Volcana
Jul 5th, 2005, 10:07 PM
I'm not sure why you picked those five players as your 'fab five'. Mary Pierce's slam results for her career AND for 2005 are better than Kim Clijsters. And since you're basing this on career, Jennifer Capriati has had a much better slam career than Clijsters' as well.

In fact, including Kim is by far the weakest part of your arguement. The other weakness is that the Russians are a much younger group. The average age of you 'fab five' is 24.4. The average age of the five ranked Russians is 21. Your 'Fab Five, as a group, won eight slams before age 22. Four by Venus, three by Justine, one by Serena. The Russians have three by pre-22 year olds. With many years worth of 'pre-22' left to go.

Comparing career accomplishments to date yields a pretty easy to figure out list.

1) Multi GS winners
2) Single GS winners
3) GS finalists
4) non-GS finalists

The only one of you 'fab five' with CONSISTENT good results in 2005 is Davenport.

In short, NO, 'the Russians' are NOT 'a level below the Fab Five'. A lot of different players are having a lot of different results. The most consistent good performers in GS events are Davenport and Sharapova.

The arguement you posit is too simplistic.

jamatthews
Jul 5th, 2005, 10:44 PM
:confused:
Clijsters is 32-5 this season, with the 5 losses comming to Lindsay x2, Venus, Sveta, and Schnyder (after Retiring while UP a set)

That makes her 2W-3L (with wins over #1 & #2 in the world) against the Fab 5 + Maria ;)

Just a little fyi :wavey:

Thanks, it was very late when I posted that... :worship:

Zauber
Jul 6th, 2005, 05:53 AM
add Sharapova and Kuznetsove and you have the players that could win the US open.
They are all about equal right now, with their own weaknesses and strengths.
I am not considering past accomplishments.
oh there is one more perhaps Amelie Mauresmo

selking
Jul 6th, 2005, 05:59 AM
I wish we could use the fed cup to settle this but thanks to maria and petrova/bovina and then serenas injury(is she injured or overweight? I've heard both) plus no cap or seles and that equals people like dinara and mashona playing

franny
Jul 6th, 2005, 06:06 AM
I just think that the Russians need time to develop. They are all so young, seriously. Watching Kuznetsova's match against Davenport, one can sense the greatness that is in her. She hit powerful forehands, big serves, wonderful volleys, and the occasional drop shot that was magnificient. She's just got to pull it all together and be consistent. Sharapova and Kuznetsova both acheived well ahead of pace. Right now, they are in their "sophomore slump" though I really wouldn't consider Maria in a slump, although she has had some surprising and dissapointing results (a la Davenport's drubbing). I just think that in time, they will develop more consistency. Maria needs to become a better volleyer, more patient, bigger serve, stronger arms and legs, slice shots perhaps, etc. There is just so much room to improve. Rome was not built in a day. Serena won the U.S Open well before even she expected to win it. But then she went awhile before winning again, and look at how successful her career has been. Venus was the one who I think won at the right time and she herself has pulled together a magnificient career. Same with Justine. Kim seems to be like a late bloomer like Davenport. Anyways, as I was saying, with time Sharapova and Kuznetsova will be huge legends. I really think they have the game and determination to become great. Myskina has a lot of potential and has so much talent, she herself can continually be a slam contender. Elena Dementieva, while I don't know if she will ever win a slam, will likewise always be a contender. She's got some of the best groundstrokes out there. Although the "Fab Five" have won slams, the Russians have been doing well and consistently challening for the top honors. While some of them may be going through slumps, others have competed and challenged the "fab five." So no, they are not a level below the five. Remember, there are only four slams a year, with many many contenders. Not everyone can win slams. BUt we have to believe that give or take a couple more years, some of the Russians will be multiple slam winners.

Lady
Jul 6th, 2005, 07:37 AM
In fact, including Kim is by far the weakest part of your arguement. The other weakness is that the Russians are a much younger group. The average age of you 'fab five' is 24.4. The average age of the five ranked Russians is 21. Your 'Fab Five, as a group, won eight slams before age 22. Four by Venus, three by Justine, one by Serena. The Russians have three by pre-22 year olds. With many years worth of 'pre-22' left to go.



1 by Serena before 22? Serena was born in September 1981, so in 2002 when she won 3 slams she was 21!! :wavey:

Russia-Rulez
Jul 6th, 2005, 11:08 AM
They are no longer coming............they are here!

Volcana
Jul 6th, 2005, 01:27 PM
I just think that the Russians need time to develop. They are all so young, seriously.
29 Likhovtseva ----- Sep 08, 1975
24 Myskina --------- Jul 08, 1981
23 Petrova --------- Jun 08, 1982
23 Dementieva ------ Oct 15, 1981
22 Bovina ---------- Mar 10, 1983
20 Zvonareva ------- Sep 07, 1984
20 Kuznetsova ------ Jun 27, 1985
19 Safina ---------- Apr 27, 1986
18 Douchevina ------ Oct 06, 1986
18 Linetskaya ------ Nov 30, 1986
18 Kirilenko ------- Jan 25, 1987
18 Chakvetadze ----- Mar 05, 1987
18 Sharapova ------- Apr 19, 1987

Thirteen Russians in the top hundred and Sharapova's the youngest (if the WTA website has their birthdays right).

Volcana
Jul 6th, 2005, 01:27 PM
1 by Serena before 22? Serena was born in September 1981, so in 2002 when she won 3 slams she was 21!! :wavey:oops

goldenlox
Jul 6th, 2005, 02:51 PM
Right now, 3 of the top 5 are Russian.
Lets remember that Maria and Sveta had mp's in the first 2 majors this year.
And Maria had won 22 straight on grass until she lost to Venus.
The Russians aren't dominating, but no one else is, either.

VeraNuVirgosFan
Jul 7th, 2005, 10:17 AM
The Russians aren't dominating, but no one else is, either.
That's a good point!

RenaSlam.
Jul 7th, 2005, 02:37 PM
Yep. Way below.