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apoet29
Jun 27th, 2005, 02:38 PM
I was reading about gender equality in education for an upcoming interview, and according to this article, in the 1970's, a psychologist came up with 4 basic rules of masculinity:

1 No Sissy Stuff. Masculinity is based on the relentless repudiation of the feminine.

2 Be a Big Wheel. Masculinity is measured by the size of your paycheck, and marked by wealth, power and status. As a US bumper sticker put it: 'He who has the most toys when he dies, wins.'

3 Be a Sturdy Oak. What makes a man a man is that he is reliable in a crisis. And what makes him reliable in a crisis is that he resembles an inanimate object. A rock, a pillar, a tree.

4.Give 'em Hell. Exude an aura of daring and aggression. Take risks; live life on the edge.

What do you guys think? Do these rules still apply today? Or has the feminine revolution changed the way that we look at men and women?

AjdeNate!
Jun 27th, 2005, 02:42 PM
I dunno... I like manly men, but they have to have a sensitive softer side.
I think things have changed. The de-masculation of society is an ever-evolving process, and is in tangent to the escalation in education as a people. More educated persons are typically not so rigid and set in older ways and values. Open mindedness, maybe?

"Sluggy"
Jun 27th, 2005, 02:51 PM
I was reading about gender equality in education for an upcoming interview, and according to this article, in the 1970's, a psychologist came up with 4 basic rules of masculinity:

Interesting, I will give you my take on this one.

1 No Sissy Stuff. Masculinity is based on the relentless repudiation of the feminine.

I dont really know what that means exactly. yes i would say acting like a wuss is not exactly masculine. Heterosexual men wearing dresses and painting their nails and being scared of a mouse would cause most guys to laugh. i have no other insights.

2 Be a Big Wheel. Masculinity is measured by the size of your paycheck, and marked by wealth, power and status. As a US bumper sticker put it: 'He who has the most toys when he dies, wins.'

Is this what most people think. Yes, a big paycheck helps a man appear masculine. but certainly a man who behaves with dignity and respect towards others is generally seen as 'masculine' by most people. Plenty of little fish are plenty masculine. Rocky Balboa was masculine before he got rich, and was still masculine when he lost his money.

3 Be a Sturdy Oak. What makes a man a man is that he is reliable in a crisis. And what makes him reliable in a crisis is that he resembles an inanimate object. A rock, a pillar, a tree.

Partially true. I think these days, both men and women who can handle crisies are admired. But it is not exclusive to men.

4.Give 'em Hell. Exude an aura of daring and aggression. Take risks; live life on the edge.

Not true. I dont think so. A man who knows his limits is not less masculine than a reckless person. in fact a reckless person is usually considered much more childish than a daring aggressive one.


What do you guys think? Do these rules still apply today? Or has the feminine revolution changed the way that we look at men and women?

I dont think these rules apply today. the people i have met tend to appreciate a man who is reasonable and reliable, who can handle himself in times of stress or worse. Men today can be fathers and sensitive and hold babies and it doesnt take away from their masculine images. what is the feminine revolution anyway. I thought the feminine revolution is a thing in the past. IMO, feminists made lots of ground in the workplace and in peoples minds, it changed society. But then feminism became CAREERISM, such that women who opted for families and not Careers were somehow thought to be less feminist, less strong and adult etc. Clearly that was not fair, because if ALL women were to be respected by society, certainly motherhood had to be respected too. Of course, womens studies programs and the like are very successful and beneficial to society, but i dont think we can talk about a feminine revolution anymore, it just seemed to have sizzled out. :)

Helen Lawson
Jun 27th, 2005, 03:27 PM
I'm all four of those.

Lord Nelson
Jun 27th, 2005, 04:55 PM
what is wrong with number 4? Also not many men including me are against number 1. We laugh at the metrosexuals. As for gays, there are those who are not feminin and they are ok.

Rtael
Jun 27th, 2005, 05:12 PM
OMG...those rules sounded like a parody. I can't believe someone was actually serious with them. And people are agreeing! Atleast we know sexism is still alive and well.

Lord Nelson
Jun 27th, 2005, 06:57 PM
OMG...those rules sounded like a parody. I can't believe someone was actually serious with them. And people are agreeing! Atleast we know sexism is still alive and well.
Why are you panicking. Is it because you fail all of the 4 rules. Relax, you can hang out with the beckham wannabes and so on.

decemberlove
Jun 27th, 2005, 07:30 PM
3 Be a Sturdy Oak. What makes a man a man is that he is reliable in a crisis. And what makes him reliable in a crisis is that he resembles an inanimate object. A rock, a pillar, a tree.

Really? :lol:

I guess my whole life I've been dealing with the wrong men, cos they always seem to fall apart when shit gets tough.

The Crow
Jun 27th, 2005, 08:44 PM
lmfao. Probably a very sexist psychologist (even in the 70's).

manu
Jun 27th, 2005, 08:48 PM
I find 2 and 4 laughable, though I see some truth in 1 and 3.

James
Jun 27th, 2005, 08:49 PM
These four rules seem very outdated and based on stereotypes. Who defines what is sissy stuff for instance? To me every man should do what makes him feel good and not focus on what others think.

Crazy Canuck
Jun 27th, 2005, 08:59 PM
i dont think we can talk about a feminine revolution anymore, it just seemed to have sizzled out.

Has it really? Well then, I wish somebody would inform the local radical feminists who recently defaced public property and ripped hundreds of newspapers off the stands in response to a picture of a woman diving into a pool in a bikinin being on the cover :o Frankly, there are much better things to fight for than this particular matter, so I wish that somebody would tell these people that feminist issues are like, so 5 minutes ago.

Crazy Canuck
Jun 27th, 2005, 09:00 PM
what is wrong with number 4? Also not many men including me are against number 1. We laugh at the metrosexuals. As for gays, there are those who are not feminin and they are ok.
I've always considered men who laugh at metrosexuals somewhat insecure.

!!!--Duiz™--!!!
Jun 27th, 2005, 09:07 PM
What a pathetic set of protocols, which only demonstrates the worthless ego of a man during a time in the USA, where society strictly dictated that man is superior than women in each and every entire way, by having laws with lower wage for women, discrimination against women when getting jobs, and the constant propaganda which came along with the TV's evolution.

I am a guy, and a real masculine guy is noble, clever, and humble. A great sportsman in life, and a great person, not someone who can only produce fear, envy, annoyance, pride, and hate.

Martian Willow
Jun 27th, 2005, 09:09 PM
The first one is true.

Martian Willow
Jun 27th, 2005, 09:13 PM
I've always considered men who laugh at metrosexuals somewhat insecure.

Masculinity is in itself born of insecurity. That's why the first one is true. :)

Rohin.
Jun 28th, 2005, 03:23 AM
I agree to a certain extent.

There are other reasons that can make a man appear Masculin apart from having a big paycheck, big house, or reputation. And you can be sensitive without being a sissy.

I agree with number 3 and 4 or though with 4 i'm no good at taking risk's that involve feelings :( physical yep, i'm crazy and i'll jump out of a plain or whatever, those sorta risks i have no problem with.. But things like asking a girl out is really hard for me, the risk of rejection is much more scary for me than the risk or injury or whatever.

~ The Leopard ~
Jun 28th, 2005, 05:20 AM
Well, number 3 is pretty important in people of either sex. It's nice if you can hang in there for other people when times are tough. The rest sounds like a pretty crappy set of values, but I suppose it is often believed to be macho or masculine. It probably made some sense to act like that in the environment of evolutionary adaptedness (eh, Becca?) but not a lot of sense now.

I do like girls in bikinis, though. Or even not wearing bikinis. :drool: :) Some feminists have the wrong idea here. There's nothing wrong with enjoying the beauty of other people's bodies. Feminism is great, in itself, but it annoys me that it is often used as a rationalisation for another crappy set of values, i.e. prudishness.

decemberlove
Jun 28th, 2005, 05:32 AM
^ Yes, I am a feminist of the non-prude type. :)

I don't think that makes sense, but whatever. My brain is fried after finishing that Camus paper.

tennisIlove09
Jun 28th, 2005, 05:55 AM
I can see why Im gay...non of those apply to me :|

~ The Leopard ~
Jun 28th, 2005, 06:53 AM
^ Yes, I am a feminist of the non-prude type. :)

I don't think that makes sense, but whatever. My brain is fried after finishing that Camus paper.

And to make matters worse, you owe me a pm or two. :devil:

Wannabeknowitall
Jun 28th, 2005, 07:03 AM
I thought one of them would seriously be men don't sit on the toilet to pee. Luckily I can still do that one and still be masculine. :lol:

kabuki
Jun 28th, 2005, 07:04 AM
what is wrong with number 4? Also not many men including me are against number 1. We laugh at the metrosexuals. As for gays, there are those who are not feminin and they are ok.

More sage words from Lord Farqwad. :rolleyes:

And who is we? You and your imaginary friends?

Crazy Canuck
Jun 28th, 2005, 08:06 AM
Feminism is good stuff - it's radical feminism that is the problem. But don't let them hear me say that, for it would mean that I'm part of the conservative feminist blacklash ;)

~ The Leopard ~
Jun 28th, 2005, 08:39 AM
Yes, Becca, I agree (depending on the definition of "radical" but I get your drift).

But you know the question we are all interested in at the moment where you're concerned. Someone asked it on another thread, and I was also wondering. Is that your butt in your avatar? If so, it's a rather nice one. :)

CooCooCachoo
Jun 28th, 2005, 08:53 AM
Yes, Becca, I agree (depending on the definition of "radical" but I get your drift).

But you know the question we are all interested in at the moment where you're concerned. Someone asked it on another thread, and I was also wondering. Is that your butt in your avatar? If so, it's a rather nice one. :)

But if it is, someone ought to tell Rebecca that that skirt ought to go!

Crazy Canuck
Jun 28th, 2005, 08:56 AM
But if it is, someone ought to tell Rebecca that that skirt ought to go!
Shorts. And yes, they are rather ugly. I never actually wear them.

Leapord - who asked and in what thread?

CooCooCachoo
Jun 28th, 2005, 08:57 AM
Shorts. And yes, they are rather ugly. I never actually wear them.

Leapord - who asked and in what thread?

It looks more like a skirt to me :o And I am glad you don't go public in them too often, though I wonder what you do wear :help: ;)

Crazy Canuck
Jun 28th, 2005, 08:59 AM
Yes, Becca, I agree (depending on the definition of "radical" but I get your drift).


I tried to read my way through "Women hating" by Andrea Dworkin, just as an intellectual exercise. I ... didn't quite make it. I read all the way through something by Wendy McElroy though, and it was quite good. It made for an interesting contrast reading the two back to back ;)

Crazy Canuck
Jun 28th, 2005, 09:01 AM
It looks more like a skirt to me :o And I am glad you don't go public in them too often, though I wonder what you do wear :help: ;)
:tape:

I make the occasional fashion faux pas, but not usually that bad. Those shorts are like, 4 years old.

CooCooCachoo
Jun 28th, 2005, 09:03 AM
:tape:

I make the occasional fashion faux pas, but not usually that bad. Those shorts are like, 4 years old.

I bet they are comfy though ;)

Crazy Canuck
Jun 28th, 2005, 09:05 AM
I bet they are comfy though ;)
They actually aren't. I've worn them once this year, to go biking.. and that was a bad idea. They don't flatter the thighs because they are fairly restrictive. And like, I wasn't any thinner when i bought them - so what was I thinking?

CooCooCachoo
Jun 28th, 2005, 09:13 AM
They actually aren't. I've worn them once this year, to go biking.. and that was a bad idea. They don't flatter the thighs because they are fairly restrictive. And like, I wasn't any thinner when i bought them - so what was I thinking?

So it's more than a fashion faux-pas? It illustrates a temporary mental breakdown. Poor you :hug:

Crazy Canuck
Jun 28th, 2005, 09:17 AM
So it's more than a fashion faux-pas? It illustrates a temporary mental breakdown. Poor you :hug:
I actually think that my other clothes were dirty, and my only options were the shorts or a pair of jeans. I figured shorts would be more comfortable. I have since solved this problem by buying lots of ugly 3/4 length pants to bike in.

As for why I'm wearing them in the picture - meh, long story. It's probably actualyl fairly self explanatory.

Bed time :p

Martian Willow
Jun 28th, 2005, 09:32 AM
I don't get it, because it doesn't look particularly fat to me.

I don't think feminism is anything particularly because it's more of a debate than an ideology, so it doesn't really have any set values. I would recommend The Skeptical Feminist by Janet something something if you're interested in that sort of thing.

:)

~ The Leopard ~
Jun 28th, 2005, 09:45 AM
Shorts. And yes, they are rather ugly. I never actually wear them.

Leapord - who asked and in what thread?

I can't recall, but I saw it and thought: "Yes, I wanted to know that, too." :D

James
Jun 28th, 2005, 09:47 AM
I can't recall, but I saw it and thought: "Yes, I wanted to know that, too." :D

It was Sam L in the "Are you racist" thread.

Lord Nelson
Jun 28th, 2005, 01:03 PM
More sage words from Lord Farqwad. :rolleyes:

And who is we? You and your imaginary friends?
When I lived in Oman I was known as Abdallah Farqwad but since I was knighted by the Queen due to my heroic conquests I'm now known as Lord Nelson. But you can me Lord. Nice to see you being so interested in me. Sorry though I'm not interested in guys so you can try your luck elsewhere.

kabuki
Jun 28th, 2005, 03:26 PM
When I lived in Oman I was known as Abdallah Farqwad but since I was knighted by the Queen due to my heroic conquests I'm now known as Lord Nelson. But you can me Lord. Nice to see you being so interested in me. Sorry though I'm not interested in guys so you can try your luck elsewhere.

:haha:

:rolleyes:

Hmm. Now I can add delusional to your profile. I already knew you were idiotic, infantile, and bigoted. How very charming.

Wigglytuff
Jun 28th, 2005, 03:37 PM
I was reading about gender equality in education for an upcoming interview, and according to this article, in the 1970's, a psychologist came up with 4 basic rules of masculinity:

1 No Sissy Stuff. Masculinity is based on the relentless repudiation of the feminine.

2 Be a Big Wheel. Masculinity is measured by the size of your paycheck, and marked by wealth, power and status. As a US bumper sticker put it: 'He who has the most toys when he dies, wins.'

3 Be a Sturdy Oak. What makes a man a man is that he is reliable in a crisis. And what makes him reliable in a crisis is that he resembles an inanimate object. A rock, a pillar, a tree.

4.Give 'em Hell. Exude an aura of daring and aggression. Take risks; live life on the edge.

What do you guys think? Do these rules still apply today? Or has the feminine revolution changed the way that we look at men and women?

LMAO
with only those four rules what you get might look like this. 1-a guy who goes around crushing beer cans on his forehead, 2-still lives with his momma but has a shiny new BMW with all the extras, 3-the only emotion he can express is "grrrrr" 4-smells of old gym socks.

these rules don't make a man they make a fool, what makes a man: smarts, courage, self-love, respect, humanity (you know not beating your wife and kids), self sufficiency.

Andy T
Jun 28th, 2005, 03:43 PM
I was reading about gender equality in education for an upcoming interview, and according to this article, in the 1970's, a psychologist came up with 4 basic rules of masculinity:

1 No Sissy Stuff. Masculinity is based on the relentless repudiation of the feminine.

2 Be a Big Wheel. Masculinity is measured by the size of your paycheck, and marked by wealth, power and status. As a US bumper sticker put it: 'He who has the most toys when he dies, wins.'

3 Be a Sturdy Oak. What makes a man a man is that he is reliable in a crisis. And what makes him reliable in a crisis is that he resembles an inanimate object. A rock, a pillar, a tree.

4.Give 'em Hell. Exude an aura of daring and aggression. Take risks; live life on the edge.

What do you guys think? Do these rules still apply today? Or has the feminine revolution changed the way that we look at men and women?

Are you sure these aren't the 4 rules for being a wanker?
1) defining yourself in terms of NOT being feminine is pretty pathetic. Second, since when does feminine = sissy.
First you say "x, y and z" are feminine and then "feminine = sissy" and then "I'm not those things".

2) masculinity = materialism, power and status? If so, male construction workers, factory workers, farmers, firefighters, truck drivers etc, etc are not "masculine".

3 & 4) Reliability in a crisis (ie being like an inanimate object) is "masculine"?.......................................... how does that square with living life on the edge and being aggressive?

Lord Nelson
Jun 28th, 2005, 03:48 PM
Reliability in a crisis means you can adapt to any situation. Actually this is also valid for women. When you go for an interview people ask you if you can be reliable. As for power it can also mean strength which corresponds more to males.

Wigglytuff
Jun 28th, 2005, 05:47 PM
what also makes a decent human is also to be able to criticize yourself and your nation. For your case instead of always talking about americans exploiting the Red Indians you can talk about the Japanese expoliting the aboriginal Ainus.

and the award for the most :retard: poster ever goes to ...... LORD NELSON!!!



i mean how many times do i need to tell people that i am a black lesbian in NYC. with 15 threads started about life in NYC you would think people would get it. or maybe some people think that the flag option on wtaworld.com magically transports you and changes your race, nationality, and personal history. or maybe lord nelson is just really really really stupid. :wavey: :wavey:

apoet29
Jun 28th, 2005, 06:01 PM
Wow, I didn't expect so much intense debate over this topic! Just for the record, the remarks I posted are not mine own, but from Michael Kimmel's article, "'A Black Woman Took My Job.'" from the New Internationalist published in November 2004.