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View Full Version : Do you find the black housekeeper on "Tom & Jerry" offensive?


GoDominique
Jun 24th, 2005, 10:38 AM
And do you agree on cutting her out and replacing her with a white woman, or replacing her original voice?

Here's a soundfile and a pic (obviously she's also known as "Mammy Two-Shoes"):

http://www.geocities.com/godominique2/icebox.wav

http://www.geocities.com/godominique2/rockin.jpg

Josh B.
Jun 24th, 2005, 11:35 AM
i dont think it is offensive!

Oneofakind0490
Jun 24th, 2005, 11:38 AM
Yes, delete your post now:rolleyes::p;)

-Kieron-
Jun 24th, 2005, 11:39 AM
Erm, no. But then I am a white male so why would I? :shrug:

Helen Lawson
Jun 24th, 2005, 12:48 PM
It's a product of its time. You think that's bad, try watching Dumbo and really listen to some of that dialog and song lyrics.

If you cut out the Tom and Jerry maid, next they'll be deleting out Butterfly McQueen and Hattie McDaniel from Gone with the Wind!

Knizzle
Jun 24th, 2005, 12:55 PM
I guess it was originally intended to be offensive like several other racial jokes in Tom and Jerry, but I prefer they leave the original cuts of the cartoons in instead of changing voices and cutting out scenes. Tom and Jerry is THE best cartoon ever made, end of story. :worship:

Wigglytuff
Jun 24th, 2005, 01:20 PM
It was the 1940s and 1950s. when i first say it was offended, but we i found about when it was, i was less offended. but i dont she comes on anymore, just her voice.

what was really offensive is some early mickey mouse ones and the bugs ones from WWII.

Wigglytuff
Jun 24th, 2005, 01:22 PM
It's a product of its time. You think that's bad, try watching Dumbo and really listen to some of that dialog and song lyrics.

If you cut out the Tom and Jerry maid, next they'll be deleting out Butterfly McQueen and Hattie McDaniel from Gone with the Wind!
i agree with you. as for gone with the wind, how i hate that movie. to me its nothing more than birth of a nation in color.

Cariaoke
Jun 24th, 2005, 02:57 PM
I think it's pivotal to keep it to show that racism was a part of every aspect of life. If it's censored, people would deny it even happened.

It's offensive to me, personally, but I take into consideration the time period.

GoDominique
Jun 24th, 2005, 03:14 PM
I think it's pivotal to keep it to show that racism was a part of every aspect of life. If it's censored, people would deny it even happened.

It's offensive to me, personally, but I take into consideration the time period.
May I ask whether you think the portrayal of the woman is racist itself?

Not being aware of the context, I never thought her image was a negative one, or something to point and laugh at. I mean, she always gave Tom hell and had the rule in that household.

Cariaoke
Jun 24th, 2005, 03:17 PM
May I ask whether you think the portrayal of the woman is racist itself?

Not being aware of the context, I never thought her image was a negative one, or something to point and laugh at. I mean, she always gave Tom hell and had the rule in that household.
the extra dark skin, the big white lips coupled with her size, yep that's offensive enough in itself. ya add broken english and you've got yourself a Mamie.

SelesFan70
Jun 24th, 2005, 03:19 PM
I hate Tom and Jerry! :o

"Sluggy"
Jun 24th, 2005, 03:35 PM
I NEVER watch T & J, but just judging from the picture, yes probably it is offensive. it reminds me of the Ant Jemima look, of a heavy black woman ,etc, yes its probably offensive to Black Americans, and White Americans who are sensitive to racial stereotyping.

GoDominique
Jun 24th, 2005, 03:36 PM
the extra dark skin, the big white lips coupled with her size, yep that's offensive enough in itself. ya add broken english and you've got yourself a Mamie.
Are you sure her face was ever shown? :confused: I can't remember ever seeing it.

Knizzle
Jun 24th, 2005, 03:36 PM
May I ask whether you think the portrayal of the woman is racist itself?

Not being aware of the context, I never thought her image was a negative one, or something to point and laugh at. I mean, she always gave Tom hell and had the rule in that household.

She definitely was there to point and laugh at. Cause we all (my family) laughed at her at some point. Like I said before though I'd take the original over the "politically correct" version anytime. They waited too long to change it anyway. I think it should be kept in for reasons rokkstarr already stated. I think it's important for kids watching these cartoons to know that there are racial undertones to some of them. Otherwise it's sorta playing like it never happened.

Knizzle
Jun 24th, 2005, 03:37 PM
Are you sure her face was ever shown? :confused: I can't remember ever seeing it.

I never saw her face either, but there were a few incidents where Tom and Jerry were presented in black face.

Cariaoke
Jun 24th, 2005, 03:39 PM
Are you sure her face was ever shown? :confused: I can't remember ever seeing it.
if not in tom and jerry, how abou bugs bunny and the "african bush baby" he had to fool. there are several racist cartoons back in the day that actually show the Mamie face, show black men with big eyes and big lips eating watermelon and every other stereotype that were prevalent at the time.

Rtael
Jun 24th, 2005, 03:55 PM
And do you agree on cutting her out and replacing her with a white woman, or replacing her original voice?

Here's a soundfile and a pic (obviously she's also known as "Mammy Two-Shoes"):

http://www.geocities.com/godominique2/icebox.wav

http://www.geocities.com/godominique2/rockin.jpg


I find you much more offensive.

azza
Jun 24th, 2005, 04:00 PM
Why would it be offensive?

Sam L
Jun 24th, 2005, 04:11 PM
i agree with you. as for gone with the wind, how i hate that movie. to me its nothing more than birth of a nation in color.
Birth of a Nation was all about the Klan and its beginnings. Gone with the Wind is about Scarlett O'Hara (who is Roman Catholic). Sure, the latter has some stereotypical racial characters in it but it's NOT racist. Birth of a Nation is. But that doesn't mean that either hasn't contributed to cinema.

Both were and still are huge, ground-breaking films in the world of cinema.

Sam L
Jun 24th, 2005, 04:12 PM
And do you agree on cutting her out and replacing her with a white woman, or replacing her original voice?

Here's a soundfile and a pic (obviously she's also known as "Mammy Two-Shoes"):

http://www.geocities.com/godominique2/icebox.wav

http://www.geocities.com/godominique2/rockin.jpg
I used to watch Tom & Jerry all the time when I was young, I never really even noticed this character. :confused:

Dava
Jun 24th, 2005, 04:46 PM
Urm, I didnt think of her as the housemaid i thought she was Tom's owner. I always thought it was kinda weird for the times to have a single black woman running a house by herself in the middle of a town in a tv show. Never thought of her as the housemaid like.

SJW
Jun 24th, 2005, 04:50 PM
it never occured to me to be honest. then again, i'm not American so its understandable.

Shenay La Soul
Jun 24th, 2005, 04:58 PM
It’s racist in the way that was described already (exaggerated features, stereotypical ethnic posturing, poor grammar). It wouldn’t be so bad if the cartoons of yesteryear showed a balance of black characters but they didn’t. They were all buffoonish like the maid in Tom & Jerry. I agree that they should remain intact in order to demonstrate to today’s generation the racist slant of a lot of TV shows of the past.

lizchris
Jun 24th, 2005, 06:07 PM
It is offensive now, but it wasn't then.


BTW, I always thought she owned the house because she was the only one who seemed to live there.

tennislover
Jun 24th, 2005, 06:18 PM
It’s racist in the way that was described already (exaggerated features, stereotypical ethnic posturing, poor grammar). It wouldn’t be so bad if the cartoons of yesteryear showed a balance of black characters but they didn’t. They were all buffoonish like the maid in Tom & Jerry. I agree that they should remain intact in order to demonstrate to today’s generation the racist slant of a lot of TV shows of the past.

i agree

Pengwin
Jun 24th, 2005, 06:39 PM
I find you much more offensive.


Me too :)

Lord Nelson
Jun 24th, 2005, 06:59 PM
And do you agree on cutting her out and replacing her with a white woman, or replacing her original voice?

Here's a soundfile and a pic (obviously she's also known as "Mammy Two-Shoes"):

http://www.geocities.com/godominique2/icebox.wav

http://www.geocities.com/godominique2/rockin.jpg
That is kind of silly to do. Replace her with a white woman. Is this really your opinion. I personally don't se anything wrong with it in fact I laugh when she scolds Tom all the time. As for her original voice what's wrong with it. People talked like that. It would be great if you contributed a little to your own thread. What your your views on this.
I will go further. I saw the jazz singer and even that was not offensive. People wore blackfaces in the past but this was not meant to be racist. Also times were different back then and it's interesting tos ee how society has changed.

GoDominique
Jun 24th, 2005, 07:01 PM
That is kind of silly to do. Replace her with a white woman. Is this really your opinion. I personally don't se anything wrong with it in fact I laugh when she scolds Tom all the time. As for her original voice what's wrong with it. People talked like that. It would be great if you contributed a little to your own thread. What your your views on this.
I will go further. I saw the jazz singer and even that was not offensive. People wore blackfaces in the past but this was not meant to be racist. Also times were different back then and it's interesting tos ee how society has changed.
Erm they HAVE cut her out and replaced her voice. That's why I mentioned it. :retard:

lizchris
Jun 24th, 2005, 07:10 PM
That is kind of silly to do. Replace her with a white woman. Is this really your opinion. I personally don't se anything wrong with it in fact I laugh when she scolds Tom all the time. As for her original voice what's wrong with it. People talked like that. It would be great if you contributed a little to your own thread. What your your views on this.
I will go further. I saw the jazz singer and even that was not offensive. People wore blackfaces in the past but this was not meant to be racist. Also times were different back then and it's interesting tos ee how society has changed.


I take serious issue with that argument.

Lord Nelson
Jun 24th, 2005, 10:11 PM
Eh GoDominique if they have cut here out and replaced her, show us the link. Lets see what the new character looks like.

LizChris:blackface was genrally racist, you are right. But not all people who wore them were racist.It was viewed as being vaudeville back then. Blacks also wore blackface. Al Jolson from the Jazz singer himself was not a racist.

From Wikipedia
'His legacy is considered by many to be severely neglected today because of his use of stage blackface, at the time a theatrical convention used by many performers (both white and black) but today seen by many as a racial slur. Jolson was billed as "The World's Greatest Entertainer", which is how many of the greatest stars (including Bing Crosby, Frank Sinatra, Judy Garland, Elvis Presley, Mick Jagger, Rod His legacy is considered by many to be severely neglected today because of his use of stage blackface, at the time a theatrical convention used by many performers (both white and black) but today seen by many as a racial slur. Jolson was billed as "The World's Greatest Entertainer", which is how many of the greatest stars (including Bing Crosby, Frank Sinatra, Judy Garland, Elvis Presley, Mick Jagger, Rod Stewart, Jackie Wilson, etc.) referred to him.

Wigglytuff
Jun 24th, 2005, 10:16 PM
Birth of a Nation was all about the Klan and its beginnings. Gone with the Wind is about Scarlett O'Hara (who is Roman Catholic). Sure, the latter has some stereotypical racial characters in it but it's NOT racist. Birth of a Nation is. But that doesn't mean that either hasn't contributed to cinema.

Both were and still are huge, ground-breaking films in the world of cinema.

we get it you like gone with the wind, but it was a racist movie. no less the birth of a nation. (i mean the woman runs a mill from slave labor, It depicts a semitic looking man as greedy carpetbagger and has a black man sitting in a carriage with him--as if that is supposed to be wrong. Even the IDEA of trying to put a sympathetic spin on the woes of people (slave owning) living in the confederacy is offensive to me. they were MONSTERS. the thought of having one one millionth of an once of sympathy for these "people" is racist. and the act itself is unforgivable.

but thats me. other people think that people who own human beings are the victims. :shrug:

Wigglytuff
Jun 24th, 2005, 10:21 PM
Eh GoDominique if they have cut here out and replaced her, show us the link. Lets see what the new character looks like.

LizChris:blackface was genrally racist, you are right. But not all people who wore them were racist.It was viewed as being vaudeville back then. Blacks also wore blackface. Al Jolson from the Jazz singer himself was not a racist.

From Wikipedia
'His legacy is considered by many to be severely neglected today because of his use of stage blackface, at the time a theatrical convention used by many performers (both white and black) but today seen by many as a racial slur. Jolson was billed as "The World's Greatest Entertainer", which is how many of the greatest stars (including Bing Crosby, Frank Sinatra, Judy Garland, Elvis Presley, Mick Jagger, Rod His legacy is considered by many to be severely neglected today because of his use of stage blackface, at the time a theatrical convention used by many performers (both white and black) but today seen by many as a racial slur. Jolson was billed as "The World's Greatest Entertainer", which is how many of the greatest stars (including Bing Crosby, Frank Sinatra, Judy Garland, Elvis Presley, Mick Jagger, Rod Stewart, Jackie Wilson all white i need to add - jiggly , etc.) referred to him.

here you go again with your half baked "research". i swear!!

blacks did not choose to wear black face, it was usually the only way for these performers to make a living. they were a extremely conflicted and there are none to few stories of the tragic results of this internal (and external) conflict.

RVD
Jun 24th, 2005, 10:23 PM
And do you agree on cutting her out and replacing her with a white woman, or replacing her original voice?

Here's a soundfile and a pic (obviously she's also known as "Mammy Two-Shoes"):

http://www.geocities.com/godominique2/icebox.wav

http://www.geocities.com/godominique2/rockin.jpgI'm curious as to why you even care (which I know you don't). GoDominique, you don't fool me one bit. In fact, like two posters have already said, I find you more offensive than the pic or the depiction. Nice try, but no fish here. :rolleyes:

Lord Nelson
Jun 24th, 2005, 10:35 PM
I agree with you ReeveeDynasty. On top of that what GoDominique says is false. The character is not being replaced.

So for you Jigglypuff the blacks who wore blackface were 'forced' to do this. Are you really a history teacher? Peoples mentality was different back then. What is viewed as unacceptable now was not the case back then. But you don't seem to realize that.

Denise4925
Jun 24th, 2005, 10:43 PM
I'm curious as to why you even care (which I know you don't). GoDominique, you don't fool me one bit. In fact, like two posters have already said, I find you more offensive than the pic or the depiction. Nice try, but no fish here. :rolleyes:
I know that's right. :haha:

Denise4925
Jun 24th, 2005, 10:45 PM
I agree with you ReeveeDynasty. On top of that what GoDominique says is false. The character is not being replaced.

So for you Jigglypuff the blacks who wore blackface were 'forced' to do this. Are you really a history teacher? Peoples mentality was different back then. What is viewed as unacceptable now was not the case back then. But you don't seem to realize that.
No Lord Nelson, black performers were forced to wear black face in order to perform onstage. They could not perform without it. For some reason, whites didn't accept real black faces in performance, they wanted to see caracatures(sp? don't feel like spellchecking) of them.

Lord Nelson
Jun 24th, 2005, 10:53 PM
oh ok but I don't view Al Jolson as a racist. I wonder what Bunker thinks of him.

Wigglytuff
Jun 24th, 2005, 10:56 PM
I agree with you ReeveeDynasty. On top of that what GoDominique says is false. The character is not being replaced.

So for you Jigglypuff the blacks who wore blackface were 'forced' to do this. Are you really a history teacher? Peoples mentality was different back then. What is viewed as unacceptable now was not the case back then. But you don't seem to realize that.

stop it! you have NO IDEA what you are talking about!!

yes they were forced in order to perform on stage. are you so stupid as to think that black people had no idea about thier own opression.

YOU HAVE NO CLUE!! own it. everytime you wanna post something about american history, stop yourself: you are not in america, you have never read anything written by an america historian, you have never read any primary, secondary, source. i dont even think you have SEEN in person a first person account of a black american from this period let alone read on. you have no clue.

RVD
Jun 24th, 2005, 11:02 PM
No Lord Nelson, black performers were forced to wear black face in order to perform onstage. They could not perform without it. For some reason, whites didn't accept real black faces in performance, they wanted to see caracatures(sp? don't feel like spellchecking) of them.Just to take this a bit further...
Even during those days, there were show houses that still didn't allow black performers whether they wore black face or not. I watched a very sad and painful documentary some time ago about how Al Jolson (Asa Yoelson in Lithuania.. he wasn't even American :shrug: ) took something that was very painful for actors of color back then and made a successful career of it (read: White male actor in black face). And THEN considered The World’s Greatest Entertainer. :eek: Granted, it was a sign of the times of what society would accept. Still, it gives you some perspective as to the cruel culture stage performing was, and entertainment as a whole. That would also include toons.

Now if you all want to REALLY be surprised, research Disney & Company. Especially Walt. :eek: :eek:

Oizo
Jun 24th, 2005, 11:05 PM
I love Tom & Jerry. It's my favourite cartoon :D I am in stiches every time she yells to Tom "Thomas!!!!!!!!!" :haha:

Stamp Paid
Jun 24th, 2005, 11:12 PM
I personally found the Sambo who sang "Is You Is or Is You Aint My Baby" on T&J to be much more offensive than Hattie.

Martian Willow
Jun 24th, 2005, 11:14 PM
I was aware it was a racial stereotype, but it's so old I don't see the point in being offended by it or editing it.

But that's not the official BNP policy on such things (as far as I'm aware).

Stamp Paid
Jun 24th, 2005, 11:16 PM
I was aware it was a racial stereotype, but it's so old I don't see the point in being offended by it or editing it.

But that's not the official BNP policy on such things (as far as I'm aware).

Theyre actually gonna edit it?!

Denise4925
Jun 24th, 2005, 11:59 PM
oh ok but I don't view Al Jolson as a racist. I wonder what Bunker thinks of him.
I never viewed him as being a racist, but you never know. I'm sure as a result of the time period, he had some stereotypical views of blacks, but I don't think he wore a hood either.

Denise4925
Jun 25th, 2005, 12:07 AM
I was aware it was a racial stereotype, but it's so old I don't see the point in being offended by it or editing it.

But that's not the official BNP policy on such things (as far as I'm aware).
Who the fuck is the BNP? Anyway, why don't you ask Native Americans how they feel about old Westerns and how Native Americans were portrayed? Or how they feel about American sports teams using them as mascots like they are animals? Why don't you ask Mexican Americans how they feel about how Mexicans were portrayed in movies and cartoons. Ask these often negatively portrayed races if they are still offended, and then come back and tell us that you still don't think that blacks should still be offended because it's so old. :rolleyes:

Knizzle
Jun 25th, 2005, 12:16 AM
I personally found the Sambo who sang "Is You Is or Is You Aint My Baby" on T&J to be much more offensive than Hattie.

I loved that episode. :haha:

Wigglytuff
Jun 25th, 2005, 12:47 AM
Just to take this a bit further...
Even during those days, there were show houses that still didn't allow black performers whether they wore black face or not. I watched a very sad and painful documentary some time ago about how Al Jolson (Asa Yoelson in Lithuania.. he wasn't even American :shrug: ) took something that was very painful for actors of color back then and made a successful career of it (read: White male actor in black face). And THEN considered The World’s Greatest Entertainer. :eek: Granted, it was a sign of the times of what society would accept. Still, it gives you some perspective as to the cruel culture stage performing was, and entertainment as a whole. That would also include toons.

Now if you all want to REALLY be surprised, research Disney & Company. Especially Walt. :eek: :eek:

oh my god so true

Black Mamba.
Jun 25th, 2005, 02:05 AM
This is one of the Darker moments in the history of animation. Bug Bunny did racist crap on the regular.

Denise4925
Jun 25th, 2005, 03:15 AM
This is one of the Darker moments in the history of animation. Bug Bunny did racist crap on the regular.
True that.

VeeReeDavJCap81
Jun 25th, 2005, 05:42 AM
I used to watch Tom & Jerry when I was younger, and always would feel uncomfortable when the black housekeeper was on. Now I know why. However, it's dumb to change the cartoon after all these years....the people who originally did it are all probably dead now so what point would it prove.

Sam L
Jun 25th, 2005, 05:53 AM
we get it you like gone with the wind, but it was a racist movie. no less the birth of a nation. (i mean the woman runs a mill from slave labor, It depicts a semitic looking man as greedy carpetbagger and has a black man sitting in a carriage with him--as if that is supposed to be wrong. Even the IDEA of trying to put a sympathetic spin on the woes of people (slave owning) living in the confederacy is offensive to me. they were MONSTERS. the thought of having one one millionth of an once of sympathy for these "people" is racist. and the act itself is unforgivable.

but thats me. other people think that people who own human beings are the victims. :shrug:

I don't even know where to begin.

Scarlett ran a mill using convict labor. Yes, convicts as in white confederate prisoners not blacks. In the book, she was using freed black labor (NOT slave labor) but that was before it got too expensive. :lol: Yes, her parents were slave holding plantation owners but that was the way of the Old South. I don't see that as racism because Ancient Rome has never been talked about in respect to racism. Racism is what happened after the slaves were freed. The attempts by whites to segregate themselves from the blacks. Besides, Scarlett O'Hara was 16 when the book and movie started. What if you were born into her position, would you say or do things otherwise? It's not like she joined the Klan. In the book, some of the main male characters were Klan members but that this was the Reconstruction years in the South and to pretend otherwise would be a bigger joke. It's not racist to portray history as it happened.

The so-called "Semitic" man on a carriage was not Jewish. He was Slattery, a white northerner. I don't know where you got Semitic from? And about the black carpetbagger, so? It happened, there were blacks coming down to the South in the Reconstruction years.

I don't have sympathy for any of white characters in the book or the film. At least, not more or less than I would with any other fictional characters. Imo, Gone with the Wind isn't about asking for our sympathy but a portrayal of "life as it was in another time". But I admire Scarlett O'Hara because she was ruthless, manipulative and knew exactly what she wanted in life and how she was going to get it. She had a good head on her shoulders. She's one of the greatest characters in the history of cinema and literature.

Oh and btw, in the film, it may not have been made that clear but in the book certainly, Scarlett O'Hara also did not have any sympathy for the Confederates, former slave-owners and those who were longing for the good ol' days. She moved on and adapted to whatever life asked of her.

GoDominique
Jun 25th, 2005, 07:34 AM
I agree with you ReeveeDynasty. On top of that what GoDominique says is false. The character is not being replaced.

So for you Jigglypuff the blacks who wore blackface were 'forced' to do this. Are you really a history teacher? Peoples mentality was different back then. What is viewed as unacceptable now was not the case back then. But you don't seem to realize that.
You are a twat (not that this is something new).

http://mammytwoshoes.tripod.com/history.html

"By the early 50's, Mammy was a supporting character just as important as Spike or Nibbles. However, in 1954, the Supreme Court declared racisism unconstitutional, which took a great affect on Hollywood movies and cartoons. So Mammy was forced to retire in 1952's "Push-Button Kitty". The new law pressured MGM to reissue the cartoons with her in them. The "White Mammy Two-Shoes" versions were created back in the 1960s for CBS when they were airing these cartoons. The work was done by Chuck Jones's crew when Jones was making new Tom and Jerry theatricals. I recall reading Chuck's remarks that at the time MGM still had most of its old animation artwork on file, so it was pretty much just a matter of retracing and repainting the original pencil animation and photographing it against recreated backgrounds. This new "White Mammy" material was then cut into dupe negatives of the cartoons in question to replace the original "Black Mammy" footage. Voice actress June Foray was brought in to redub the soundtracks. (Incidentally, that voice is supposed to be Irish.) Instances where the "White Mammy" has a "Black Mammy" voice (or vice versa) is a result of carelessness. Picture and sound elements on film masters are stored separately. What happens is simply that someone isn't paying attention and matches a newer "White Mammy" picture element to the original "Black Mammy" sound element (or vice versa).

Turner recently aqquired some redubbed prints which weren't quite as bad. Instead of a white woman providing her voice, they had another black woman provide the voice with less grammar mistakes. Recently, we've been seeing these "dubbed" prints air on CN (especially on late night showings). The following have recently aired dubbed: "Puss Gets the Boot", "The Midnight Snack", "Dog Trouble", "Puss n' Toots", "The Lonesome Mouse", "Old Rockin' Chair Tom", "Mouse Cleaning", "Polka Dot Puss", "Saturday Evening Puss", "The Framed Cat", and "Triplet Trouble". Dubbed versions of other cartoons, including "Part Time Pal" and "A Mouse in the House", have been said to have aired back a few years after Cartoon Network started. Hopefully in the near future, WB will release all of the Tom and Jerry cartoons uncut onto VHS or DVD, so everyone can see these treasures unedited."

vutt
Jun 25th, 2005, 07:48 AM
Thank God Tom is blue! Otherwise kids these days could not watch that...

If seriously then black maid reflected reality back then. Rewriting history by repainting characters would be even worse IMHO. Let it be as reminder for generations to come...

Martian Willow
Jun 25th, 2005, 09:36 AM
Who the fuck is the BNP?

A French bank.

Anyway, why don't you ask Native Americans how they feel about old Westerns and how Native Americans were portrayed? Or how they feel about American sports teams using them as mascots like they are animals? Why don't you ask Mexican Americans how they feel about how Mexicans were portrayed in movies and cartoons. Ask these often negatively portrayed races if they are still offended, and then come back and tell us that you still don't think that blacks should still be offended because it's so old. :rolleyes:

As usual, you are argueing about nothing, which is why I don't usually bother responding directly anymore, except to just laugh. The question was whether I was offended.

Pengwin
Jun 25th, 2005, 10:22 AM
Who the fuck is the BNP?

The largest Fascist party of Britain. Their name is 'British Nationalist Party' but they don't shy away from calling themselves the 'British Nazi Party' since that's their political stance...

Not to be confused with the French bank BNP of course.

beauty_is_pink
Jun 25th, 2005, 01:00 PM
I miss Tom & Jerry :sad:

Wigglytuff
Jun 25th, 2005, 02:22 PM
In the book, she was using freed black labor (NOT slave labor) but that was before it got too expensive. :lol: Yes, her parents were slave holding plantation owners but that was the way of the Old South. In the book, some of the main male characters were Klan members but that this was the Reconstruction years in the South and to pretend otherwise would be a bigger joke. It's not racist to portray history as it happened.

The so-called "Semitic" man on a carriage was not Jewish. He was Slattery, a white northerner. I don't know where you got Semitic from? And about the black carpetbagger, so? It happened, there were blacks coming down to the South in the Reconstruction years.

I don't have sympathy for any of white characters in the book or the film. At least, not more or less than I would with any other fictional characters. Imo, Gone with the Wind isn't about asking for our sympathy but a portrayal of "life as it was in another time". But I admire Scarlett O'Hara because she was ruthless, manipulative and knew exactly what she wanted in life and how she was going to get it. She had a good head on her shoulders. She's one of the greatest characters in the history of cinema and literature.

Oh and btw, in the film, it may not have been made that clear but in the book certainly, Scarlett O'Hara also did not have any sympathy for the Confederates, former slave-owners and those who were longing for the good ol' days. She moved on and adapted to whatever life asked of her.

ok, so what you are saying is that i am by an large right about what happened in the movie, but you dont like the way i said it? ummm ok......

now scroll back to my post, i did NOT say that it was racist to talk about what happened as it happened, i said and let make this clear again "Even the IDEA of trying to put a sympathetic spin on the woes of people (slave owning) living in the confederacy is offensive to me. they were MONSTERS. the thought of having one one millionth of an once of sympathy for these "people" is racist. and the act itself is unforgivable."

it is racist to sympathize with people who owned slaves. the movie is a racist movie, just as birth of a nation is.

and at 7 i had enough empathy and self love to know its wrong to treat other people like animals, so the fact that this brute did not have that at 16 only makes feeling sorry for her even more inexcuseable in book.

Wigglytuff
Jun 25th, 2005, 02:25 PM
you might want to carefully re-think what Racism is/means and how & why slavery came about...racism happened after slaves were freed??:eek: wow- i'm really hoping you were thinking and writing too fast...


ditto

Stamp Paid
Jun 26th, 2005, 12:37 AM
A French bank.

lmfao :haha:

Denise4925
Jun 27th, 2005, 05:10 AM
I don't even know where to begin.

Scarlett ran a mill using convict labor. Yes, convicts as in white confederate prisoners not blacks. In the book, she was using freed black labor (NOT slave labor) but that was before it got too expensive. :lol: Yes, her parents were slave holding plantation owners but that was the way of the Old South. I don't see that as racism because Ancient Rome has never been talked about in respect to racism. Racism is what happened after the slaves were freed. The attempts by whites to segregate themselves from the blacks. Besides, Scarlett O'Hara was 16 when the book and movie started. What if you were born into her position, would you say or do things otherwise? It's not like she joined the Klan. In the book, some of the main male characters were Klan members but that this was the Reconstruction years in the South and to pretend otherwise would be a bigger joke. It's not racist to portray history as it happened.

The so-called "Semitic" man on a carriage was not Jewish. He was Slattery, a white northerner. I don't know where you got Semitic from? And about the black carpetbagger, so? It happened, there were blacks coming down to the South in the Reconstruction years.

I don't have sympathy for any of white characters in the book or the film. At least, not more or less than I would with any other fictional characters. Imo, Gone with the Wind isn't about asking for our sympathy but a portrayal of "life as it was in another time". But I admire Scarlett O'Hara because she was ruthless, manipulative and knew exactly what she wanted in life and how she was going to get it. She had a good head on her shoulders. She's one of the greatest characters in the history of cinema and literature.

Oh and btw, in the film, it may not have been made that clear but in the book certainly, Scarlett O'Hara also did not have any sympathy for the Confederates, former slave-owners and those who were longing for the good ol' days. She moved on and adapted to whatever life asked of her.
I just loved and still love GWTW and see nothing racist about it. It was representative of the time. In fact they toned it down in the movie. A great book and a great movie. One of the best of all time. I love the characters and the actors who portrayed them.

I totally agree with you Sam about the movie and the book. :yeah: Not so sure about the racism part. I do believe the whole point of enslaving blacks was racism.

Denise4925
Jun 27th, 2005, 05:11 AM
A French bank.



As usual, you are argueing about nothing, which is why I don't usually bother responding directly anymore, except to just laugh. The question was whether I was offended.
That's because you're too stupid to respond. Why respond now? Because you saw a way out? :hehehe:

Yes, the original question was whether you were offended, but you stated that you didn't see the point in being offended by it, and your condescending tone implied that there was no point in anyone being offended by it. :rolleyes:

Martian Willow
Jun 27th, 2005, 08:19 AM
I'm too stupid to respond. :crying2:

Denise4925
Jun 27th, 2005, 03:53 PM
I'm too stupid to respond. :crying2:
Yeah, exactly the same way I feel about your trite and repetitive insults. :lol:

Halardfan
Jun 28th, 2005, 12:13 AM
I think even when I was kid I knew there was something wrong with that character (Im white and English by the way) it left a bitter taste in the mouth, even though I love and was raised on American cartoons, I didn't need anyone to tell me it was offensive...sometimes politcal correctness can got too far but this case really isn't about nuances or hard calls, the character IS screamingly, dreadfully racist, which depressingly a lot of the early cartoons tend to be...

Lets look at what has happened here in Britian to much more recent programs which were tainted with racism...

As recently as the 70's, there were some overtly racist sit-coms on British TV, and most of these simply never get re-shown now, despite the myriad nostalgia channels we have, which I think is a good thing. I do think since then we've come a long long way, what was seen as acceptable even 20 years ago, wouldn't be shown now.

I think either the cartoons in question should be edited or the offending episodes not shown at all.