PDA

View Full Version : Study Shows How Deeply Black Men Face Discrimination In Hiring


kiwifan
Jun 17th, 2005, 05:22 PM
http://www.jobbankusa.com/News/Hiring/hiring100803a.html

Study Shows How Deeply Black Men Face Discrimination In Hiring

By Tannette Johnson-Elie (telie@journalsentinel.com)
JSOnline - Milwaukee Journal Sentinel (http://www.jsonline.com/)

October 8, 2003

Yet another study finds that racial discrimination is alive and well in the hiring process, and it's keeping black men in metro Milwaukee on the unemployment rolls.

The study offers this fictional scenario:

A young, white, male high school graduate with a felony conviction applies in person for entry level jobs as a driver, a dishwasher, a laborer, warehouse worker and production worker that are advertised in the newspaper and admits to employers that he served 18 months in prison for possession of cocaine with intent to sell.

A young black man with similar education, work history and style of presentation, but with no criminal record, applies for the same jobs.

Who do you think is more likely to be called back?

If you picked the white man with the felony conviction, you guessed right.

This study offers evidence that discrimination remains a major factor in the economic lives of black men, and highlights the fear and misunderstanding of black males that permeate the local job market.

Devah Pager, a sociologist at Northwestern University in Evanston, Ill., sent equally matched pairs of testers - two black and two white - to apply for low-skilled jobs at 350 places of employment in the Milwaukee area and found that white ex-offenders were more likely to be called back for an interview than black applicants who had no criminal record.

Students test employers

In this detailed study, bright, articulate, college students posed as job applicants. Even though the results were strikingly close, black men without criminal records were called back only 14% of the time, while whites with criminal records were called back 17% of the time.

The study, titled "The Mark of a Criminal Record," was conducted in Milwaukee between June and December 2001, and the results were released last month.

"It shows there's a great deal of work that has to be done in the education of employers and working on attitudes," says Julia Taylor, president of the Greater Milwaukee Committee. "This type of racial disparity in employment practices really impacts us as a region. It impacts our work force, and it really impacts how the inner-city moves forward."

Pager chose Milwaukee for her experiment because it is representative of most large metropolitan areas in its size, racial demographics and industrial base, she says.

The study's findings would surprise few African-Americans in this city, who know from experience that this kind of discrimination exists in the job market. Research shows that white Americans, however, have been led to think that direct, racial discrimination of this nature has become less of a problem in our society.

It was even surprising to Pager, a young white woman.

"I expected that there would be an effect of race. I thought the effect of a criminal record would swamp other effects," Pager says. "That assumption was clearly wrong. It really suggests that stereotypes and assumptions about black males are very much a factor in hiring decisions."

Facing tougher odds

The study demonstrates the increased odds black male ex-offenders face in finding employment and successfully reintegrating into the economic mainstream, says Lenard Wells, chairman of the Milwaukee Parole Commission and a former Milwaukee police officer.

"It's as if there's a concerted effort to keep black men from getting employment, to keep them oppressed," says Wells, former president of the League of Martin, an organization of black Milwaukee police officers.

"We say we want to reintegrate individuals into the community. We say that we want to do something about unemployment in the black community, yet we want to pretend that it's a criminal record that prevents blacks from getting jobs. It's blatant, undisputed, racism," he says.

Combine the effects of race and a criminal record, and the problem becomes worse. For instance, only 5% of black men with criminal records received callbacks from employers, the study found.

White men without criminal records fared the best in the Milwaukee-area job market, with 34% receiving callbacks from employers.

Keep in mind that it's illegal to discriminate against applicants with criminal records unless the circumstances of the crime correspond closely to the requirements of the job, says Phoebe Weaver Williams, an associate professor of law at Marquette University who specializes in employment discrimination.

"What's frustrating is that, after so many years of having laws in place, the laws haven't corrected the problem," Weaver Williams says.

Clearly, the study's findings demonstrate that a criminal record closes doors on employment.

Still, employers are averse to taking risks on black applicants, whom they perceive to have criminal tendencies, the study says. For example, black testers were more likely to be asked by employers whether they had any convictions, yet none of the white testers were asked about their criminal histories up front.

Image problems

A couple of factors that work against young black men is their portrayal in the media as gangsters, thugs and rappers on the fringes of society, and the fact that more black men are going to prison than college, according to a report by the U.S. Justice Department.

The sad reality is that the majority of those inmates will be released back into communities where they have little opportunity to obtain legitimate work. Research shows that one of the factors for recidivism is employment.

Black felons face a hostile job market in Milwaukee, says Wendell Hruska, associate director of Project Return, a Milwaukee agency that helps felons and people convicted of misdemeanors find employment.

"Discrimination is very much a problem. That's what we've been hearing from our clients," Hruska says. "A lot of people get discouraged. Unfortunately, many of them give up. You really can't blame people when you've been out there for months putting in applications and you hear nothing back."

This research helps us measure the degree of discrimination that exists in the hiring process.

But the question remains: How do we attack a problem that so affects the economic lives of black men in Milwaukee, where many employers still make hiring decisions colored by fear and misunderstanding?

http://www.jsonline.com/bym/biz2biz/oct03/ (http://www.jsonline.com/bym/biz2biz/oct03/175535.asp)

The spoke about this on the Howard Stern show today...no one seemed that shocked...they just thought it was funny...:tape:

And you wonder why we need Affirmative Action??? :rolleyes:

CJ07
Jun 17th, 2005, 05:36 PM
This is leaving a HUGE part out. What about presentation? How you present yourself is key. I'm not arguing that discrimination does occur, especially at that level, but if you act like one of lower class AND don't look like the interviewer, of course you have lower chances of getting called back.

And that goes BOTH ways. Don't for a second don't believe a black interviewer wouldn't put a black man higher on the list for the exact same reason.

And please, don't get my started with "affirmative action" :o

lizchris
Jun 17th, 2005, 05:39 PM
This is leaving a HUGE part out. What about presentation? How you present yourself is key. I'm not arguing that discrimination does occur, especially at that level, but if you act like one of lower class AND don't look like the interviewer, of course you have lower chances of getting called back.

And that goes BOTH ways. Don't for a second don't believe a black interviewer wouldn't put a black man higher on the list for the exact same reason.

And please, don't get my started with "affirmative action" :o



Typical of someone who wants to believe that discrimination doesn't exists for blacks, but does for everyone else who isn't black.:rolleyes:

What the article is pointing out is that if you are a convicted felon, YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE HIRED FOR CERTAIN JOBS. The fact that a white person would be hired for a certain position when he is a convicted felon over a black man who isn't is blatant discrimination, but not surprising.

kiwifan
Jun 17th, 2005, 05:55 PM
This is leaving a HUGE part out. What about presentation? How you present yourself is key. I'm not arguing that discrimination does occur, especially at that level, but if you act like one of lower class AND don't look like the interviewer, of course you have lower chances of getting called back.

And that goes BOTH ways. Don't for a second don't believe a black interviewer wouldn't put a black man higher on the list for the exact same reason.

And please, don't get my started with "affirmative action" :o

"In this detailed study, bright, articulate, college students posed as job applicants."

Damn, you rushed to your oppressor's defense. :haha:

You got issues son. :devil: :p :devil:

lizchris
Jun 17th, 2005, 05:58 PM
"In this detailed study, bright, articulate, college students posed as job applicants."

Damn, you rushed to your oppressor's defense. :haha:

You got issues son. :devil: :p :devil:


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Helen Lawson
Jun 17th, 2005, 05:58 PM
I don't doubt the conclusions of the study in the least, but I think someone disclosing a felony conviction and being honest about it upfront in an interview, as opposed to lying about it and the employer only finding out with a background check, is a little different. I mean, when I interview a felon who's upfront about it, I'm thinking, first, if (s)he's upfront about it, maybe I should give the con a second chance. But more important, I'm figuring they're almost completely unemployable, so I can offer them like a total shit salary and treat them like dirt and they won't/can't leave. I distrust every employee like they were a felon anyway, so it's not like I have to be any more vigilant if I hire a felon. But that's just me.

ys
Jun 17th, 2005, 06:12 PM
This is leaving a HUGE part out. What about presentation? How you present yourself is key. I'm not arguing that discrimination does occur, especially at that level, but if you act like one of lower class AND don't look like the interviewer, of course you have lower chances of getting called back.

And that goes BOTH ways. Don't for a second don't believe a black interviewer wouldn't put a black man higher on the list for the exact same reason.

And please, don't get my started with "affirmative action" :o

I agree.. Presentation is the key in many cases. I remember at my previous work a couple of black kids were interviewed.. One of them, looking for R&D engineering position, slick and intelligent, MIT graduate, came to the interview in a good suit, tie. The other one was looking for a tester position, and came looking like those "cool" black kids are supposed to look. With earring, sacky pants, audioplayer visible in his bag. The company has serious customers, often coming in to visit us. Image is important. The first guy was hired. The second one was not even considered. The first type is rarity among black kids. The second type is typical. Who is to blame?

Helen Lawson
Jun 17th, 2005, 06:22 PM
The true diamond in the rough to me is a white collar person who's stolen money from a previous employer, whether there's an actual conviction or not. That person is TOTALLY not employable unless they're digging ditches. So I can filll a $50K-$60K a year job with one of them any pay them $25K, and they'll take it because it's that or digging ditches. And they'll never leave. You work them around the clock and on weekends, they'll take it and they'll take it and they'll take it. Because they don't have a choice. There are enough controls so that they can't steal when they're working for me either. It's not nice, but I didn't steal the money either.

There's really so much that goes into filling a position with just the right person!

harloo
Jun 17th, 2005, 06:28 PM
I agree.. Presentation is the key in many cases. I remember at my previous work a couple of black kids were interviewed.. One of them, looking for R&D engineering position, slick and intelligent, MIT graduate, came to the interview in a good suit, tie. The other one was looking for a tester position, and came looking like those "cool" black kids are supposed to look. With earring, sacky pants, audioplayer visible in his bag. The company has serious customers, often coming in to visit us. Image is important. The first guy was hired. The second one was not even considered. The first type is rarity among black kids. The second type is typical. Who is to blame?

:rolleyes: You are beyond ignorant. Did you even read the article? The applicants were college kids who are very well educated.

lizchris
Jun 17th, 2005, 06:30 PM
I agree.. Presentation is the key in many cases. I remember at my previous work a couple of black kids were interviewed.. One of them, looking for R&D engineering position, slick and intelligent, MIT graduate, came to the interview in a good suit, tie. The other one was looking for a tester position, and came looking like those "cool" black kids are supposed to look. With earring, sacky pants, audioplayer visible in his bag. The company has serious customers, often coming in to visit us. Image is important. The first guy was hired. The second one was not even considered. The first type is rarity among black kids. The second type is typical. Who is to blame?


You for being ignorant.:rolleyes: (not surprising, considering you are not an American)

Maybe where you live, which I would guess is not around a lot of educated black people, the latter image is typical.. For those of us who are black and live around of a mixture of blakcs, the first example is typical.

PaulieM
Jun 17th, 2005, 06:31 PM
I agree.. Presentation is the key in many cases. I remember at my previous work a couple of black kids were interviewed.. One of them, looking for R&D engineering position, slick and intelligent, MIT graduate, came to the interview in a good suit, tie. The other one was looking for a tester position, and came looking like those "cool" black kids are supposed to look. With earring, sacky pants, audioplayer visible in his bag. The company has serious customers, often coming in to visit us. Image is important. The first guy was hired. The second one was not even considered. The first type is rarity among black kids. The second type is typical. Who is to blame?
this statement is very telling of the author :rolleyes:

Black Mamba.
Jun 17th, 2005, 06:31 PM
This study didn't tell me anything that I didn't already know. You can rationalize it all you want, but the study doesn't like. Speaking of Affirmative Action White Americans have benefited from defacto Affirmative Action for years so don't get me started.

Helen Lawson
Jun 17th, 2005, 06:33 PM
I interview a lot of people. I don't notice any appearance/presentation differences as far as Black v. white people interviewing. There are people who come to an interview too casually dressed, but that's about the worst of it. Oh, and that woman who showed up with a tongue stud for a professional position. That's my all-time favorite. She was really the perfect candidate in every way, but you have to question the judgment of someone who shows up with a great big tongue stud.

roarke
Jun 17th, 2005, 07:08 PM
I agree.. Presentation is the key in many cases. I remember at my previous work a couple of black kids were interviewed.. One of them, looking for R&D engineering position, slick and intelligent, MIT graduate, came to the interview in a good suit, tie. The other one was looking for a tester position, and came looking like those "cool" black kids are supposed to look. With earring, sacky pants, audioplayer visible in his bag. The company has serious customers, often coming in to visit us. Image is important. The first guy was hired. The second one was not even considered. The first type is rarity among black kids. The second type is typical. Who is to blame?

-----------------------------

This is a blatant racist argument. This is the kind of excuse people come up with all the time to hide behind their racist actions, attitudes, words and thoughts. Blame it all on how their clothes fit or the hair styles they wear. You didn't look a certain way so I won't hire you! Mind you it is not because you are black it is only because you wore jeans or braids while right beside you is the white person I will hire who looks ten times worst than you. Mind you he is white so I will overlook his clothes....and his criminal record. Blatant racism..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now I see you why so many negative comments on this board are dedicated to Venus and Serena...
Jeez.. don't you think it is time for you all to stop and get a conscience!

DemWilliamsGulls
Jun 17th, 2005, 07:18 PM
We sure do need Affirmative Action back because as you can see...everybody dont abide by their "Equal Opportunity" rule they CLAIM they have for their company. Black folk go through this all the time. Yeah some of us eventually get the job we want, but we have to be turned down or beated by somebody of another race a few times b4 we get it. This happens day in and day out for us...I believe a white male is the highest pick over race, and sex over a female. Women are not even paid as much as they should be and experience the same discrimination. Believe or not..but this is a white mans world when it comes to money.

ys
Jun 17th, 2005, 07:28 PM
:rolleyes: You are beyond ignorant. Did you even read the article? The applicants were college kids who are very well educated.

Do you think education always translates into appearance? And by the way, the second guy was not dimissed because of lack of expertise, in that sense he was on acceptable level. He was dismissed on presentation alone.

SJW
Jun 17th, 2005, 07:47 PM
"In this detailed study, bright, articulate, college students posed as job applicants."

Damn, you rushed to your oppressor's defense. :haha:

You got issues son. :devil: :p :devil:

"issues" is putting it lightly.

so would me saying his upbringing is obviously somewhat sheltered.

Joan Rivers
Jun 17th, 2005, 08:06 PM
I mean, when I interview a felon who's upfront about it, I'm thinking, first, if (s)he's upfront about it, maybe I should give the con a second chance. But more important, I'm figuring they're almost completely unemployable, so I can offer them like a total shit salary and treat them like dirt and they won't/can't leave.
I forgot to ask - Is Winona still doing some errands for you, Hel?

Helen Lawson
Jun 17th, 2005, 08:11 PM
I forgot to ask - Is Winona still doing some errands for you, Hel?

Hon, I'd hire her in a heartbeat for a film. Ain't no one gonna insure her until she's proven she's past her whack-job phase, and she's only going to able to do that if she's made a string of films, without incident. So, I hire her for a film, pay her scale, and she better be perfect. And I mean perfect, she better be on time, she better know those lines, and she's going to work the hours I tell her to work. If not, I tell others she's doped up again, and then she's back to square one with another mark against her.

Sadly, I guess with all that shoplifting and having never been married, she still has plenty of money!

CJ07
Jun 17th, 2005, 08:13 PM
what YS said isn't racist, its to a large extent true :shrug:

And Liz, DUH discrimination exists. lol. I'm not refuting that, I'm just saying that you have to be realistic with what you expect.

and Kiwi, I haven't been oppressed by anyone. I get treated just fine :wavey:
(at some point I'm sure I will, but thus far no problems)

CJ07
Jun 17th, 2005, 08:14 PM
and before I get jumped on, we're going to have different perspectives because we're looking at it from two different view points.

1) different generation
2) different backgrounds (from what I understand. Obviously I don't know all your business, nor do you know mine, nor should we, but it looks like thats the case)

SJW
Jun 17th, 2005, 08:19 PM
i dunno. from what i understand we're from a similar generation and a similar background, but it seems that i've been exposed to life more than you have. that's not meant to be mean i'm just being honest.

CJ07
Jun 17th, 2005, 08:21 PM
nope, its truthful. I live in a bubble :o :tape:
But its a nice bubble, haha I kinda like it :angel:

Stamp Paid
Jun 17th, 2005, 08:21 PM
Damn.

Well, good thing I'm articulate and have been called *ahem* a bit charismatic on occasion. :cool:

Stamp Paid
Jun 17th, 2005, 08:23 PM
"In this detailed study, bright, articulate, college students posed as job applicants."

Damn, you rushed to your oppressor's defense. :haha:

You got issues son. :devil: :p :devil:

:o

lizchris
Jun 17th, 2005, 08:25 PM
what YS said isn't racist, its to a large extent true :shrug:

And Liz, DUH discrimination exists. lol. I'm not refuting that, I'm just saying that you have to be realistic with what you expect.

and Kiwi, I haven't been oppressed by anyone. I get treated just fine :wavey:
(at some point I'm sure I will, but thus far no problems)


Then whites shouldn't be surprised when they are discriminated when trying to adopt black children (something I condone because adoption is a priviledge, not a right), but when they are, they start screaming (like I want to hear that shit).:rolleyes:

PaulieM
Jun 17th, 2005, 08:31 PM
what YS said isn't racist, its to a large extent true :shrug:

And Liz, DUH discrimination exists. lol. I'm not refuting that, I'm just saying that you have to be realistic with what you expect.

and Kiwi, I haven't been oppressed by anyone. I get treated just fine :wavey:
(at some point I'm sure I will, but thus far no problems)
i just want to ask what exactly you mean by that part of your post. thanks.

harloo
Jun 17th, 2005, 08:32 PM
Do you think education always translates into appearance? And by the way, the second guy was not dimissed because of lack of expertise, in that sense he was on acceptable level. He was dismissed on presentation alone.

YS, when discussing anything racial your credibility is pretty much shot. You can fool some people(like SMM) but most people see right through all that hot air you blow.

Knizzle
Jun 17th, 2005, 08:34 PM
"In this detailed study, bright, articulate, college students posed as job applicants."

Damn, you rushed to your oppressor's defense. :haha:

You got issues son. :devil: :p :devil:

This is what I was picking up on in the "ask black people anything" thread.

Martian Willow
Jun 17th, 2005, 08:37 PM
What about Black Women?

Helen Lawson
Jun 17th, 2005, 08:41 PM
What about Black Women?

I don't think they carry the negative stereotype that Black men do, I've seen that in the workplace. I mean, people see a Black chick interviewing and think of like a Condaleeza Rice and "she's really ambitious" and all that. They're not thought of as like what's in the article above that is applied to Black men. I don't know why, but I see much less bias against Black woman than Black men.

lizchris
Jun 17th, 2005, 08:43 PM
What about Black Women?


A study isn't necessary because the statistical difference would be miniscule because incarceration rates due to felony convictions are similar.

CJ07
Jun 17th, 2005, 08:44 PM
eh, Should I defend myself? Why not, I'm bored.

Ok lookie hear. I'll admit I'm a bit in the dark about the whole race thing. But it just hasn't been an issue for me. It's NEVER came up. Maybe like 3 times that I can actually recall in my life. Why does that mean I have issues?

CJ07
Jun 17th, 2005, 08:47 PM
i just want to ask what exactly you mean by that part of your post. thanks.
IMO you have to expect some discrimination purely because it happens. Thats life. Thats all I'm saying.

Person A interviews person B and person C.
Person A identifies with person C.
Person B automatically is at a disadvantage.

Thats just the way it is. Is it fair, no. Should it be like that? no. Does it happen? yes

CJ07
Jun 17th, 2005, 08:49 PM
YS, when discussing anything racial your credibility is pretty much shot. You can fool some people(like SMM) but most people see right through all that hot air you blow.
Ys's posts may be a bit out there, but I agree with him about Presentation.
If you don't present yourself well, it puts you at a disadvantage regardless. Just because you have a Harvard degree, it doesn't mean anything. I can surely attest to that.

harloo
Jun 17th, 2005, 08:51 PM
.

I'll admit I'm a bit in the dark about the whole race thing.

A bit?:tape: :lol:

ys
Jun 17th, 2005, 08:53 PM
YS, when discussing anything racial your credibility is pretty much shot.

If anything, it is your credibility in racial issues that is simply zero, because you are an extremely biased. I have nothing to do with any discrimination, more than that, I am still a foreigner and an ethnic minority in this country too, and can not apply for huge amount of jobs on that merit alone.

CJ07
Jun 17th, 2005, 08:54 PM
A bit?:tape: :lol:
I dunno, I'm not seeing it. Where I live, race is not an issue :shrug: It just isn't

harloo
Jun 17th, 2005, 08:58 PM
I dunno, I'm not seeing it. Where I live, race is not an issue :shrug: It just isn't

Oops my bad, I forgot you were sheltered from reality. I understand it all now.;)

lizchris
Jun 17th, 2005, 09:00 PM
I dunno, I'm not seeing it. Where I live, race is not an issue :shrug: It just isn't



Cystic fibrosis and lice aren't issues for me, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't make myself aware that these things exist.

ico4498
Jun 17th, 2005, 09:02 PM
if the klan relaxed its entry criteria some black folks would join up.

harloo
Jun 17th, 2005, 09:04 PM
Ys's posts may be a bit out there, but I agree with him about Presentation.
If you don't present yourself well, it puts you at a disadvantage regardless. Just because you have a Harvard degree, it doesn't mean anything. I can surely attest to that.

It does matter how you present yourself, but since you claim to know nothing about the "race thing" let me tell you something. It is indeed difficult to secure employment if you are a black male with a record and that's reality. Until you have some experience with people in this situation then you do not have any idea what you are talking about.

My cousin experienced this for a period in his life until he finally found someone willing to give him a chance. It's plain and simple, black males with records are threatening to employers while white males with records are considered less threatening.

harloo
Jun 17th, 2005, 09:05 PM
if the klan relaxed its entry criteria some black folks would join up.

Are you a member of the KKK?:tape: :lol:

Pengwin
Jun 17th, 2005, 09:08 PM
if the klan relaxed its entry criteria some black folks would join up.

I remember a few years ago there was a protest for that there were too many Black people in some place (it was a long time ago) and for some reason more than half of the protesters were Black people themselves!.

It is the same for Chinese people too, I know someone that thinks there are too many immigrants in the country :rolleyes:

Martian Willow
Jun 17th, 2005, 09:13 PM
It does matter how you present yourself, but since you claim to know nothing about the "race thing" let me tell you something. It is indeed difficult to secure employment if you are a black male with a record and that's reality. Until you have some experience with people in this situation then you do not have any idea what you are talking about.

My cousin experienced this for a period in his life until he finally found someone willing to give him a chance. It's plain and simple, black males with records are threatening to employers while white males with records are considered less threatening.

The black males in the study didn't have records.

ys
Jun 17th, 2005, 09:16 PM
The black males in the study didn't have records.

Those with records should not even be considered. They all are at employer's merci, regardless of race. Not willing to deal with a person because of a record sounds like a legit reason to me.

CJ07
Jun 17th, 2005, 09:19 PM
Sheltered from reality? well for me, this IS reality. Bethesda is bethesda. if you live there, thats your reality. If you live in timbuctoo, whatever goes on in timbucto is your reality.

I'm not refuting your statement, I just think thats a good question to raise, what truly defines reality?

anyway, whatever. I'm not going to let internet kids bother me. i'm not saying your wrong, but at the same time, i'll let life experiences teach me whatever i need to learn. so far, so good. :)

Volcana
Jun 17th, 2005, 09:24 PM
I agree.. Presentation is the key in many cases. I remember at my previous work a couple of black kids were interviewed.. One of them, looking for R&D engineering position, slick and intelligent, MIT graduate, came to the interview in a good suit, tie. The other one was looking for a tester position, and came looking like those "cool" black kids are supposed to look. With earring, sacky pants, audioplayer visible in his bag. The company has serious customers, often coming in to visit us. Image is important. The first guy was hired. The second one was not even considered. The first type is rarity among black kids. The second type is typical. Who is to blame?Just in case you didn't manage to figure it out, the statement highlighted in bold simply isn't true. At least it isn't true in New York, New Jersey, Atlanta, Ga, Florida, California, Massachusetts or Texas.

Thus, the answer to your question is, no one is to blame, because the situation you posit does not exist. Also, your analogy would be flawed in any case. The authors of the study made an effort to match whites and blacks in presentation, appearance, and positions they applied for.
a sociologist at Northwestern University in Evanston, Ill., sent equally matched pairs of testers - two black and two white - to apply for low-skilled jobs at 350 places of employment in the Milwaukee area
In this detailed study, bright, articulate, college students posed as job applicantsAn 'R&D engineering position' is simply not on the same level as a position as a 'tester'. I wouldn't expect a software developer and a mechanic to go to job interviews dressed the same way.

Presentation IS important. But that had nothing to do with the outcome of this study.

CJ07
Jun 17th, 2005, 09:29 PM
Those with records should not even be considered. They all are at employer's merci, regardless of race. Not willing to deal with a person because of a record sounds like a legit reason to me.
seriously. btw, are you Republican? :p

ico4498
Jun 17th, 2005, 09:32 PM
Are you a member of the KKK?:tape: :lol:

no, i love my own.

kiwifan
Jun 17th, 2005, 09:32 PM
1. what YS said isn't racist, its to a large extent true :shrug:

And Liz, DUH discrimination exists. lol. I'm not refuting that, 2. I'm just saying that you have to be realistic with what you expect.

and Kiwi,3. I haven't been oppressed by anyone. I get treated just fine :wavey:
4. (at some point I'm sure I will, but thus far no problems)

1. you really think these black people (college kids) show up for these job interviews in do rags and flashing gang signs :p

2. Good thing Malcolm and Martin weren't realistic with thier expectations. ;) And any black man who doesn't see anything wrong with white convicts getting ahead of them in the employment line (all other factors being equal); please make sure that you never hold yourself out as speaking to or for other blacks when you hit college. You'd be doing us all and yourself a disservice. :tape:

3. if I had lived all my life in 5 of the 14 different places I lived in the USA, I might be in that same boat with you - luckily I hit Jackson, MS in 2nd grade and that set me straight. :haha:

4. the only wise statement you've made in this thread; just do your best not to make excuses for the people when you're being dissed. :devil:

:topic: I don't know why y'all are responding to ys' posts...you know in race based discussions...he's "insane in the membrane"; actually he's pretty lost in rugby discussions too, but at least I don't worry about him having any authority ever over the South African RFU. :p

SJW
Jun 17th, 2005, 09:33 PM
seriously. btw, are you Republican? :p

i didn't think immigrants were allowed to vote until they applied and were accepted for residency :shrug:

judging from what ys says. he's not a resident.

ico4498
Jun 17th, 2005, 09:34 PM
I remember a few years ago there was a protest for that there were too many Black people in some place (it was a long time ago) and for some reason more than half of the protesters were Black people themselves!

its a weird kinda self loathing.

Volcana
Jun 17th, 2005, 09:36 PM
The study's author, Devah Pager, repeated this study, on a larger scale, working with Bruce Western of Princeton University. An article on the results was published in today's (06-17-2005) New York Times. (Serendipity!:))

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/17/nyregion/17felons.html?oref=login

Race a Factor in Job Offers for Ex-Convicts


By PAUL von ZIELBAUER
Published: June 17, 2005

White men with prison records receive far more offers for entry-level jobs in New York City than black men with identical records, and are offered jobs just as often - if not more so - than black men who have never been arrested, according to a new study by two Princeton professors.
The study, the first to assess the effect of race on job searches by ex-convicts, also found that black men who had never been in trouble with the law were about half as likely as whites with similar backgrounds to get a job offer or a callback.

Black men whose job applications stated that they had spent time in prison were only about one-third as likely as white men with similar applications to get a positive response.

For every 10 white men without convictions who got a job offer or callback, more than 7 white men with prison records also did, the study found. But the difference grew far larger for black applicants: For every 10 black men without criminal convictions, only about 3 with records got offers or callbacks.

"It takes a black ex-offender three times as long to receive a callback or a job offer," said Devah Pager, an assistant professor of sociology and one of the study's two authors.

More than 630,000 people nationwide leave prison each year, including 27,000 in New York State, most of whom are from New York City, said Jeremy Travis, the president of John Jay College of Criminal Justice, which announced the results of the study yesterday. Nationwide, one in three black men with only a high school diploma will go to prison before turning 40, Professor Pager said.

Beginning in February 2004, Professor Pager and the study's other author, Bruce Western, also a sociology professor, sent 13 white, black and Latino men posing as ex-convicts to more than 3,500 job interviews throughout the city, most of them in Manhattan. (The study did not form any conclusions about Latino ex-convicts.) Saying they had completed only high school, they applied for a broad spectrum of jobs, from couriers to cashiers, deli clerks to telemarketers.

The study's authors said they took pains to minimize all applicants' nonracial differences - in personality, interpersonal skills, education levels, work history and the neighborhoods where they said they lived.

Applicants told prospective employers that they had spent 18 months in prison on a drug conviction, and listed a parole officer as a reference, the study said. The city's correction commissioner, Martin F. Horn, said he hoped the study would persuade elected officials to do more to integrate former prisoners back into society. "The world continues to be a very hard place for ex-offenders to succeed in," he said in an interview, "and it's clear that it's harder still if you're a black ex-offender."

Because ex-convicts with jobs are far less likely to commit further crimes, r, the ability to find work "is every bit as important as putting more police officers on the street," Mr. Horn said.

The chairwoman of the New York City Commission on Human Rights, Patricia L. Gatling, said that beginning next year, her office would invite employers willing to hire people who have been in prison to informal discussions about how to break down the racial disparities in hiring found by the Princeton study.

Volcana
Jun 17th, 2005, 09:42 PM
And that goes BOTH ways. Don't for a second don't believe a black interviewer wouldn't put a black man higher on the list for the exact same reason.I DON'T believe it. Please provide the results of any study showing this to be true. Anti-Black discrimination is an American disease. Blacks discriminate against Blacks too. Your skin color doesn't control who you're biased for or against. Note Hautbois' last post.
I remember a few years ago there was a protest for that there were too many Black people in some place (it was a long time ago) and for some reason more than half of the protesters were Black people themselves!.

It is the same for Chinese people too, I know someone that thinks there are too many immigrants in the country :rolleyes:

ico4498
Jun 17th, 2005, 09:58 PM
i didn't think immigrants were allowed to vote until they applied and were accepted for residency :shrug:

judging from what ys says. he's not a resident.

a legal immigrant already has already been granted residency. supposedly, only citizens, born or naturalized, can vote.

Cybelle Darkholme
Jun 17th, 2005, 10:01 PM
If anything, it is your credibility in racial issues that is simply zero, because you are an extremely biased. I have nothing to do with any discrimination, more than that, I am still a foreigner and an ethnic minority in this country too, and can not apply for huge amount of jobs on that merit alone.
Haven't you realized by now that your words and threads and posts on this subject have very clearly spelled out that you are extremely biased?

Which makes it double ironic since you seem to face a different brand of discrimination based on your immigrant status.

So sad.

RVD
Jun 17th, 2005, 10:06 PM
:lol: I'm sorry, but I don't believe SMM and ys are that ignorant. I have to believe that they are either jerking your chains or have reading comprehension difficulties. :lol: I mean the study in both cases were exceedingly clear about the applicants. To actually try to argue racism is pure folly when the study is RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF YOU. :lol: Wake up guys, these posters are just playing with ya. ;)

Anyway, topic related...

I posted an article similar to this some time back detailing housing discrimination conducted by a major university here in California. In fact, I have a very close acquaintance (white) who argued his case as SMM and ys. That is until I showed him SEVERAL current SPECIFIC articles and studies on this very topic. Then he tells me that he knew racism existed, but now at such a very high level.

So SMM and ys, rather than argue points that you seem to have (extremely) limited knowledge in, instead, try to learn from people who actually experience these things. You guys don't fool me one bit. Any intelligent person knows full well that racism is more prevalent today than ever before. Especially in the US. The only difference now is that it's hidden within the culture of business practices and the legal system.

This stuff is elementary knowledge. :wavey: The only people who need these studies are whites in denial, or blacks who refuse to believe it exists. ;)

kiwifan
Jun 17th, 2005, 11:08 PM
This stuff is elementary knowledge. :wavey: The only people who need these studies are whites in denial, or blacks who refuse to believe it exists. ;)

That's why I started this thread with a ":D"; I didn't think there would be much of a debate.

I was made aware of this reality more than 30 years ago and its been reinforced at least 3 time a year (and trust me, there have been years where its been reinforced 100s of times ;) ).

That's why I went and got myself a JD from a "Top 25" school...

...so I could compete with white high college grads who've never been in jail :devil: :p :devil:

Okay everyone, catch y'all laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaater!!! :wavey:

CJ07
Jun 18th, 2005, 01:03 AM
well you guys, I'll agree to disagree. I don't really find it that serious. (not discrimination, but arguing it) My legs are tired from playing 3 hours of tennis, and I have to get up early to go to Manhattan tomorrow. So I'll just let bygones be bygones.

Rocketta
Jun 18th, 2005, 01:53 AM
well just wanted to post that I ain't surprised either! :wavey:

Study Suggests Bias Against 'Black' Names On Resumes



Employers may be selecting or overlooking prospective job candidates
for interviews based on their potential race as suggested by names,
according to a recent study by two professors from the University of
Chicago and Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT).

To test whether employers might discriminate against job applicants
with black-sounding names, associate professors of economics Marianne
Bertrand with Chicago's Graduate School of Business and Sendhil
Mullainathan with MIT conducted an elaborate experiment. They
fabricated resumes for multiple "phantom" job seekers with common black and white names. The professors then sent out nearly 5,000 resumes for 1,300 job openings advertised in newspapers and on online job sites throughout
Chicago and Boston.

"We searched online and selected resumes of actual job seekers," says
Bertrand. "We then used those to create models for several different
realistic resumes with the appropriate education and experience needed
for typical job openings advertised in newspapers."

Most job openings for which the researchers sent resumes were
administrative, sales, clerical and managerial positions. Bertrand and
Mullainathan randomly assigned the applicants names common to either
black men, black women, white men or white women and were careful not
to send identical resumes to the same employer.

Bertrand and Mullainathan then tracked which of their "applicants" were
called for job interviews. Bertrand said that more resumes were sent to
Chicago area employers simply because it is the larger metropolitan
area but added that the rate for interview requests was virtually identical
between the two cities.

The results are a bit disturbing, the researchers admit. Applicants
with white-sounding names were 50 percent more likely to be contacted for job interviews than those with typical black names. There were no significant differences between the rates at which men and women were contacted.


"Once we compiled the data and got a good look at it, I was immediately
struck by the disparities in the response rates," said Bertrand. "I
expected that there would be a difference, but not one that was so
striking."

Bertrand acknowledged that employers could not conclusively determine
the race of a job applicant from a resume. However, she contended that
the study clearly showed a bias among employers based on perceptions.

"I believe our study clearly shows that when employers or hiring
managers see a name that might indicate race, or at least the
applicant's social class, they appear to react negatively towards it,"
Bertrand says.

"Once you take into account the large size of our sample and the
comparable response rates of the two cities, we believe it is a very
good indicator that employers treat applicants with African
American-sounding names much differently," Bertrand says.

PHOTO (COLOR): Marianne Bertrand

PHOTO (COLOR): Sendhil Mullainathan

~~~~~~~~

By Bill Leonard

_____

Copyright of HR Magazine is the property of Society for Human Resource
Management
Source: HR Magazine, Feb2003, Vol. 48 Issue 2, p29, 2p
Item: 9030064

Knizzle
Jun 18th, 2005, 02:05 AM
well just wanted to post that I ain't surprised either! :wavey:

Study Suggests Bias Against 'Black' Names On Resumes



Employers may be selecting or overlooking prospective job candidates
for interviews based on their potential race as suggested by names,
according to a recent study by two professors from the University of
Chicago and Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT).

To test whether employers might discriminate against job applicants
with black-sounding names, associate professors of economics Marianne
Bertrand with Chicago's Graduate School of Business and Sendhil
Mullainathan with MIT conducted an elaborate experiment. They
fabricated resumes for multiple "phantom" job seekers with common black and white names. The professors then sent out nearly 5,000 resumes for 1,300 job openings advertised in newspapers and on online job sites throughout
Chicago and Boston.

"We searched online and selected resumes of actual job seekers," says
Bertrand. "We then used those to create models for several different
realistic resumes with the appropriate education and experience needed
for typical job openings advertised in newspapers."

Most job openings for which the researchers sent resumes were
administrative, sales, clerical and managerial positions. Bertrand and
Mullainathan randomly assigned the applicants names common to either
black men, black women, white men or white women and were careful not
to send identical resumes to the same employer.

Bertrand and Mullainathan then tracked which of their "applicants" were
called for job interviews. Bertrand said that more resumes were sent to
Chicago area employers simply because it is the larger metropolitan
area but added that the rate for interview requests was virtually identical
between the two cities.

The results are a bit disturbing, the researchers admit. Applicants
with white-sounding names were 50 percent more likely to be contacted for job interviews than those with typical black names. There were no significant differences between the rates at which men and women were contacted.


"Once we compiled the data and got a good look at it, I was immediately
struck by the disparities in the response rates," said Bertrand. "I
expected that there would be a difference, but not one that was so
striking."

Bertrand acknowledged that employers could not conclusively determine
the race of a job applicant from a resume. However, she contended that
the study clearly showed a bias among employers based on perceptions.

"I believe our study clearly shows that when employers or hiring
managers see a name that might indicate race, or at least the
applicant's social class, they appear to react negatively towards it,"
Bertrand says.

"Once you take into account the large size of our sample and the
comparable response rates of the two cities, we believe it is a very
good indicator that employers treat applicants with African
American-sounding names much differently," Bertrand says.

PHOTO (COLOR): Marianne Bertrand

PHOTO (COLOR): Sendhil Mullainathan

~~~~~~~~

By Bill Leonard

_____

Copyright of HR Magazine is the property of Society for Human Resource
Management
Source: HR Magazine, Feb2003, Vol. 48 Issue 2, p29, 2p
Item: 9030064

We were taught in college that this could happen and also not to list your address on a resume so they don't discriminate by where you live.

Rocketta
Jun 18th, 2005, 02:12 AM
We were taught in college that this could happen and also not to list your address on a resume so they don't discriminate by where you live.

yeah I guess they can tell how you are going to dress or act just by a name or address. :rolleyes:

Volcana
Jun 18th, 2005, 02:51 AM
Well...not much to disagree with in the original article, it seems rather straight-forward. However, some of the comments by black people in this thread are just plain ignorant. I know I'm gonna get bad-repped for what I say, but I'll say it anyway. I know this isn't true for ALL black men, but most of the time, black men are assholes. Just straight up fucking jerks. Period. This is not to say that all are, I do have black male friends (yes yes this is that "old excuse" but it makes sense...if I was racist, why would I have black friends? :retard: ) but really I've lived in three different southern states: Louisiana, Alabama, and Mississippi, and the of the four schools I've been to in those three states, three of them have had a black majority or 50/50 split. And I know black males are assholes from personal experience. I have been taunted, mocked, and harrassed by these people, so I KNOW it's true. This doesn't mean I won't give someone I don't know a fair chance, but I will be more wary because of my experiences. My opinions are not based on racism, or pre-conceived notions, these are based on personal experience, and there's not much that anyone can say to argue that.Well, let's not overlook the possiblity that YOU'RE an asshole, and are being treated as you deserve. After all, we don't have the benefit of a study about you, or how you treat Black men. Maybe YOU treat THEM badly, and so are treated badly in return.

Of course, I don't know you. But the experience you report has more than one possible cause. And it's certainly far likely that one person is an asshole, than a whole group of people selected by skin color.

Simply put, statistically, it's lot likelier that you're an asshole than that a disproportionate number of Black men are.

Rocketta
Jun 18th, 2005, 03:06 AM
Well...not much to disagree with in the original article, it seems rather straight-forward. However, some of the comments by black people in this thread are just plain ignorant. I know I'm gonna get bad-repped for what I say, but I'll say it anyway. I know this isn't true for ALL black men, but most of the time, black men are assholes. Just straight up fucking jerks. Period. This is not to say that all are, I do have black male friends (yes yes this is that "old excuse" but it makes sense...if I was racist, why would I have black friends? :retard: ) but really I've lived in three different southern states: Louisiana, Alabama, and Mississippi, and the of the four schools I've been to in those three states, three of them have had a black majority or 50/50 split. And I know black males are assholes from personal experience. I have been taunted, mocked, and harrassed by these people, so I KNOW it's true. This doesn't mean I won't give someone I don't know a fair chance, but I will be more wary because of my experiences. My opinions are not based on racism, or pre-conceived notions, these are based on personal experience, and there's not much that anyone can say to argue that.

well lets see the fact that you are saying most black men are assholes like you have even possible interacted with any significant number of black men is all the argument anyone needs to know.

If black people went around calling most white people assholes based on personal experience with some that's all we would say 24/7/52/365.....

I didn't know that's all it takes to call majority of groups of people assholes because someone has been an asshole to me....well damn.....white people's names would be mud. :o

tennis ace
Jun 18th, 2005, 03:17 AM
I would like to hear Julia's oppinion on this :lol:

Rtael
Jun 18th, 2005, 03:20 AM
Well, let's not overlook the possiblity that YOU'RE an asshole, and are being treated as you deserve. After all, we don't have the benefit of a study about you, or how you treat Black men. Maybe YOU treat THEM badly, and so are treated badly in return.

Of course, I don't know you. But the experience you report has more than one possible cause. And it's certainly far likely that one person is an asshole, than a whole group of people selected by skin color.

Simply put, statistically, it's lot likelier that you're an asshole than that a disproportionate number of Black men are.


:retard: Yes, it's very likely that I treat them badly when alot of it is from people I don't even know. You're right on target there.

Rtael
Jun 18th, 2005, 03:23 AM
well lets see the fact that you are saying most black men are assholes like you have even possible interacted with any significant number of black men is all the argument anyone needs to know.

If black people went around calling most white people assholes based on personal experience with some that's all we would say 24/7/52/365.....

I didn't know that's all it takes to call majority of groups of people assholes because someone has been an asshole to me....well damn.....white people's names would be mud. :o

I do admit that I'm generalizing here. Sorry. But, come on, I've been exposed to approximately 1000 black males in the last couple of years, and I'd say that's a pretty large number. Now I will atleast say that my experience has been limited to the south, so perhaps it just has to do with the fact that most blacks in the south tend to be poorer than whites, therefore less-educated, therefore more likely to be homophobic assholes. That doesn't change my personal experience and my wariness. From your last post, I can clearly see you're atleast somewhat jaded towards white people, so you're not much different from me. :shrug:

Volcana
Jun 18th, 2005, 03:38 AM
:retard: Yes, it's very likely that I treat them badly when alot of it is from people I don't even know. You're right on target there.Thank you. Obviously, there's no requirement that you know people in order to treat them badly.

Justeenium
Jun 18th, 2005, 03:44 AM
Why don't you do a study on white people face discrimination in college admissions, especially at private universities???

Or are you just a blinded tool?

Rtael
Jun 18th, 2005, 03:46 AM
Thank you. Obviously, there's no requirement that you know people in order to treat them badly.


You know very well what I meant asshole. Not only people I didn't know but people I had never spoken to, about, or interacted with in any way whatsoever. Is that clear enough for you, or would you like me to draw a picture?

Volcana
Jun 18th, 2005, 03:48 AM
You know very well what I meant asshole. Not only people I didn't know but people I had never spoken to, about, or interacted with in any way whatsoever. Is that clear enough for you, or would you like me to draw a picture?I'd like you to draw a picture, thank you.

Rtael
Jun 18th, 2005, 03:50 AM
I'd like you to draw a picture, thank you.


I'll get right on that.

Rocketta
Jun 18th, 2005, 03:53 AM
I do admit that I'm generalizing here. Sorry. But, come on, I've been exposed to approximately 1000 black males in the last couple of years, and I'd say that's a pretty large number. Now I will atleast say that my experience has been limited to the south, so perhaps it just has to do with the fact that most blacks in the south tend to be poorer than whites, therefore less-educated, therefore more likely to be homophobic assholes. That doesn't change my personal experience and my wariness. From your last post, I can clearly see you're atleast somewhat jaded towards white people, so you're not much different from me. :shrug:

No if I was jaded I would make gross generalizations about white people which I don't. What you should've gotten from my post is that if I used your criteria I and a lot of black people would be calling white people assholes in general.

Also, if you think 1000 black people are a lot of black people in the south well ... :tape:

Finally, I do not believe you've had personal experiences with a thousand black males ..... I think another one of your generalizations.

The fact that you think homophobia is somehow exclusive to black men well is kind of telling. So southern straight white males are cool with it right?

Yeah you're right it's these black people's lack of education that is the problem. :o :o :o

Rocketta
Jun 18th, 2005, 03:55 AM
Why don't you do a study on white people face discrimination in college admissions, especially at private universities???

Or are you just a blinded tool?

which white ones do you want a study on? The ones who get in because of legacy or the ones whose family donate money to the school?

Cariaoke
Jun 18th, 2005, 03:56 AM
Somehow I find it hard to believe that Rtael would call all white men assholes if it was a bunch of white men making fun of the fact that he was gay. I guess all black gay men hate themselves since homophobia is so ingrained in black culture. :tape: :rolls:

What a tool. Maybe they made fun of you cuz you're a racist twit. :wavey:

CJ07
Jun 18th, 2005, 04:00 AM
Why don't you do a study on white people face discrimination in college admissions, especially at private universities???

Or are you just a blinded tool?
oh man. I have to comment on this.
And i have exact figures for Dartmouth. Just cause I know their shit:

Cold, Hard Numbers:
Blacks are admitted at a 147% higher rate than whites
Blacks average 218 points lower on the SAT
Blacks average 1.4 points lower on the GPA scale once they attend the college

HOWEVER
Only 50% of blacks graduate high school*
Only 1.5% of blacks score a 1300 or higher ( :o :tape: )

On the one hand, blacks are very much at an advantage just by checking the box. And dont anyone say they aren't just because of their race...its TRUE.
At Dartmouth, the files are seperated, and marked with a blue tage :tape:
They then re-read all the blue tags (as well as the other minority tags) seperately before making their admissions decisions. If thats not wrong, I don't know what is.
It's something that I really disagree with, and I've been vocal about it. I refused to meet with the minority recruiter, and I turned down the 10 or so colleges (Yale, Amherts, etc.) who offered to fly me up simply because I'm black. I wanted to get into college because of what I achieved, not because of the color of my skin.

Think of me what you will, but thats what I strongly believe in, and I think you gotta stick to your guns.

HOWEVER, Colleges have a problem in that there are only so many of us to go around. There are more Jewish people in my high school than there are Blacks with 1400's in the whole damn country. And while we could argue all day about why this is true, its true. And while grades and SAT's aren't the only college indicators, they're a pretty big damn part, no?

Eh, I shouldn't have said anything as I'll get attacked, but whatever.

*Dartmouth's figures are from their admissions stats from 2000 (i think, maybe 1999)
Bill Cosby noted that 50% figure, it may be wrong, but it sounds right
1.5% figure is from the collegeboard

CJ07
Jun 18th, 2005, 04:02 AM
which white ones do you want a study on? The ones who get in because of legacy or the ones whose family donate money to the school?
admissions rates for blacks is more than twice that of legacies @ most of the Ivy League......at some schools, like Pomona (might be wrong on that exact school, but of that league) its close to 3x

you may not like what some of these kids have to say, but there is some truth behind it

Rocketta
Jun 18th, 2005, 04:07 AM
oh man. I have to comment on this.
And i have exact figures for Dartmouth. Just cause I know their shit:

Cold, Hard Numbers:
Blacks are admitted at a 147% higher rate than whites
Blacks average 218 points lower on the SAT
Blacks average 1.4 points lower on the GPA scale once they attend the college

HOWEVER
Only 50% of blacks graduate high school*
Only 1.5% of blacks score a 1300 or higher ( :o :tape: )

On the one hand, blacks are very much at an advantage just by checking the box. And dont anyone say they aren't just because of their race...its TRUE.
At Dartmouth, the files are seperated, and marked with a blue tage :tape:
They then re-read all the blue tags (as well as the other minority tags) seperately before making their admissions decisions. If thats not wrong, I don't know what is.
It's something that I really disagree with, and I've been vocal about it. I refused to meet with the minority recruiter, and I turned down the 10 or so colleges (Yale, Amherts, etc.) who offered to fly me up simply because I'm black. I wanted to get into college because of what I achieved, not because of the color of my skin.

Think of me what you will, but thats what I strongly believe in, and I think you gotta stick to your guns.

HOWEVER, Colleges have a problem in that there are only so many of us to go around. There are more Jewish people in my high school than there are Blacks with 1400's in the whole damn country. And while we could argue all day about why this is true, its true. And while grades and SAT's aren't the only college indicators, they're a pretty big damn part, no?

Eh, I shouldn't have said anything as I'll get attacked, but whatever.

*Dartmouth's figures are from their admissions stats from 2000 (i think, maybe 1999)
Bill Cosby noted that 50% figure, it may be wrong, but it sounds right
1.5% figure is from the collegeboard

now give us the figures for legacy admissions and children of donors?

don't forget to give us the #'s of black students who go to schools that don't offer honors programs where they are working on a 4.0 scale where a lot of the other students are working on a 4.5/5.0 scale.

and of course we won't get into how this all reflects in SAT which is of course not even reflective of who will do well in college and a lot of schools are not even using them anymore.

Finally let us know about all the rich kids who pay for special tutors or someone to actually take their SATs for them.

and then we can have a discussion. :wavey:

Let me get this right though.....you're ok with most blacks don't know how to act, and they don't deserve to get into college....everybody but you right? :rolleyes:

Volcana
Jun 18th, 2005, 04:10 AM
oh man. I have to comment on this.
And i have exact figures for Dartmouth. Just cause I know their shit:

Cold, Hard Numbers:
Blacks are admitted at a 147% higher rate than whites
Blacks average 218 points lower on the SAT
Blacks average 1.4 points lower on the GPA scale once they attend the college

http://www.asianam.org/2005.htm[quote]

5/11/04 The Dartmouth: "Admittance rates differ drastically by race for Class of 2008,"
Dartmouth accepted 44.6 percent of African Americans who applied -- 2.5 times higher than the overall rate of 18.3 percent. Native Americans were accepted at 34.6 percent and Latinos at 29 percent. White students, on the other hand, had a more difficult time getting accepted; only 16.2 percent of white, non-international students received letters of acceptance.
Dean of Admissions Karl Furstenberg cited two reasons for the higher acceptance rates. First, the College recruits minority populations aggressively, producing "a very well cultivated applicant pool," he said. Second, Dartmouth and other prestigious institutions are competing for the same small pool of highly qualified minority students. The College has to accept more of them, therefore, to compensate for a lower yield. "Its supply and demand," Furstenberg said.

But not all minorities are receiving preference. The number of Asian American college applicants has grown substantially over the last decade, so that Asian Americans no longer receive a significant preference for being a minority sub-population. Asian Americans applying for the Class of 2008 at Dartmouth enjoyed just a four percent boost over the average applicant, being accepted at a rate of 22.8 percent.
This is partially attributable to the higher number of Asian American applicants compared to the other minority groups. A record 1,513 Asian Americans applied for a spot in the Class of 2008, compared to just 437 African Americans.
Michele Hernandez '89, author of the book "A is for Admission," and currently a private college consultant, noticed the disparity when she worked for the Dartmouth admissions office in the mid-1990s.
"Colleges count Asian Americans in the numbers of students of color, but Asians receive no preference in the admissions process. I can't believe Asians aren't outraged," Hernandez said.



<SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold"><FONT face=Verdana size=2>5/20/04 Harvard University Gazette: “College's new financial aid initiative keeps yield near 80%,”
Harvard's new financial aid initiative aimed at students from low and moderate economic backgrounds helped support close to an 80 percent yield on students admitted to the College Class of 2008 entering in September.

Rocketta
Jun 18th, 2005, 04:11 AM
admissions rates for blacks is more than twice that of legacies @ most of the Ivy League......at some schools, like Pomona (might be wrong on that exact school, but of that league) its close to 3x

you may not like what some of these kids have to say, but there is some truth behind it

so what? My point is there is affirmative action for whites in college always has been and always will be. So justify it all you want but it exists and basically some are not crying about that affirmative action because it's always the minority that took their spot. :rolleyes:

well all the blacks took their spot except for you, right? :tape:

Volcana
Jun 18th, 2005, 04:16 AM
admissions rates for blacks is more than twice that of legacies @ most of the Ivy LeagueNot at Columbia, and not at Cornell. Of course, there are the black legacies ...

CJ07
Jun 18th, 2005, 04:22 AM
now give us the figures for legacy admissions and children of donors?
I don't know. I'm not one, so I didn't look it up. Legacies have an advantage, but not that big. I think blacks were admitted at Dartmouth at 47%, legacies 20-30ish, reg. 14-16ish...I'm not 100%.

don't forget to give us the #'s of black students who go to schools that don't offer honors programs where they are working on a 4.0 scale where a lot of the other students are working on a 4.5/5.0 scale.
Just like white kids, asian kids, everyone else. Not everyone goes to an elite school.

and of course we won't get into how this all reflects in SAT which is of course not even reflective of who will do well in college and a lot of schools are not even using them anymore.
I can only talk about Ivy League schools as they're the ones I did extensive research on, but they sure as hell look at SAT scores veeeery closely. They are flawed, but its the only measuring stick equal for everyone.

Finally let us know about all the rich kids who pay for special tutors or someone to actually take their SATs for them.
Oh, everyone does. Our school requires us to start taking practice tests in 7th grade. Thus, we have one of the highest averages in the country...nearly 30 people in our class is going Ivy. It is an advantage for those with more money. Everything is. But are we talking black people or poor people? Two completely different things. I'm ALL for helping out the poor, but I'm NOT for helping out people just because they happen to be black. A Black kid whose parents make 7 figures gets just as much help as the one whose parents only make 4. Is that right? I am all for, ALL FOR, affirmative action based on socioeconomic status. Just not on race.

and then we can have a discussion. :wavey:

Let me get this right though.....you're ok with most blacks don't know how to act, and they don't deserve to get into college....everybody but you right? :rolleyes:

I know how to act, my mother tought me better. I'm not saying anyone doesn't deserve to get into college, all I'm saying is that it shouldn't be because they checked a box.

CJ07
Jun 18th, 2005, 04:25 AM
so what? My point is there is affirmative action for whites in college always has been and always will be. So justify it all you want but it exists and basically some are not crying about that affirmative action because it's always the minority that took their spot. :rolleyes:

well all the blacks took their spot except for you, right? :tape:
Hey I have the same averages as everyone else. :wavey:

Look, i have no idea why i'm going over this with random internet people. If you want to believe me, fine, if you don't, fine. I really don't care.

CJ07
Jun 18th, 2005, 04:26 AM
Not at Columbia, and not at Cornell. Of course, there are the black legacies ...
6/8=most

Volcana
Jun 18th, 2005, 04:32 AM
SMM - What you're failing to look at is that 'diversity admissions' or 'affirmative action' or whatever you want to call it, is, at best, a second best solution.

In a perfect world, there wouldn't BE affirmative action at the university level. The reason we have it at that level is two-fold.

1) University administration are, by definition, populated with highly educated people. They recognize that American grade schools don't educate children equally, so the smartest student isn't necessarily the one with the best grades. Also, they see the value in diversity. The country went through virtually a second civil war in the 1960's because so many Americans knew so little about how oppressed some citizens of this country were. Even if the poor white kid from the Blue Ridge mountains, or the poor Black kid from Harlem doesn't graduate, I got to meet know, and hear about their lives first hand.

2) The obvious place to equalize education is at grades k through 6. But schools are controlled locally in this country. The State of Virginia closed it public schools altogether for five YEARS rather than educate Black students. Majority Black districts get fewer resources, less money spent ON students, and more decrepit facilities. Add to that the fact that America schools used to teach teachers that Blacks students had less of an ability to learn than white students. (My mother-in-law went to Columbia's (then Barnard's) Teacher's College, the most prestigious in the country, and they taught HER that. Teacher expectation is THE leading indicator of student performance. Teach the teachers that Black kids will do worse, and it's a pretty sure thing they will.

I'm off the point though. The Federal government couldn't force local school districts to educate Blacks on a par with Whites. They CAN control whether or not universities get funds from the Federal government. So affirmative action is enforced where the Federal government CAN enforce it. At the University level.

Give me an America where localities are willing to spend as much to educate Blacks as Whites, and I'll be first in line to end affirmative actions in universities.

Volcana
Jun 18th, 2005, 04:33 AM
6/8=mostSo far, you only provided stats for Dartmouth, and from memory at that. 1/6 is NOT 'most'.

ys
Jun 18th, 2005, 04:42 AM
seriously. btw, are you Republican? :p

No, I am common sense..

Rocketta
Jun 18th, 2005, 04:44 AM
I don't know. I'm not one, so I didn't look it up. Legacies have an advantage, but not that big. I think blacks were admitted at Dartmouth at 47%, legacies 20-30ish, reg. 14-16ish...I'm not 100%.


Of course you didn't.



Just like white kids, asian kids, everyone else. Not everyone goes to an elite school.


not good enough I want stats of the % of black college students in relation to the % of white college students.




I can only talk about Ivy League schools as they're the ones I did extensive research on, but they sure as hell look at SAT scores veeeery closely. They are flawed, but its the only measuring stick equal for everyone.




Do we really have to go into how flawed the SAT is and yes there are better ways to evaluate a student's possible success in college. There are many varied reasons why schools don't look into them most of them are purely political.


Oh, everyone does. Our school requires us to start taking practice tests in 7th grade. Thus, we have one of the highest averages in the country...nearly 30 people in our class is going Ivy. It is an advantage for those with more money. Everything is. But are we talking black people or poor people? Two completely different things. I'm ALL for helping out the poor, but I'm NOT for helping out people just because they happen to be black. A Black kid whose parents make 7 figures gets just as much help as the one whose parents only make 4. Is that right? I am all for, ALL FOR, affirmative action based on socioeconomic status. Just not on race.



so you're for poor people affirmative action? :retard: Which of course is just the same thing.

Let's be clear no not all students get SAT prepping or coaching or tutoring. The more affluent avail themselves of many resources to inflate their SAT numbers. That's a fact frankly not making the SAT a judge of anything but affluence.

and that includes public schools since they are funded based on tax bases...the higher the tax base the better the schools once again a reflection of affluence.



I know how to act, my mother tought me better. I'm not saying anyone doesn't deserve to get into college, all I'm saying is that it shouldn't be because they checked a box.

yeah you know how to act just not those 'other' black people, right? :rolleyes:

ys
Jun 18th, 2005, 04:47 AM
Which makes it double ironic since you seem to face a different brand of discrimination based on your immigrant status.


It never bothered me.. I know I am good enough to find my way regardless... The worst thing you can do about any discrimination is whining..

CJ07
Jun 18th, 2005, 05:03 AM
Volcana- I agree.

Rocketta- Whatever man, whatever. I'm going to NYC/Westchester/Westport in 5 hours and I'm going to have a great time. I'm not going to let internet debates bog me down. Its just a way to pass the time while I'm listening to Radiohead. One thing I DO agree with is.....Venus & Serena rock :)

Lets just leave it at that.

Justeenium
Jun 18th, 2005, 05:23 AM
so you're for poor people affirmative action? :retard: Which of course is just the same thing.

:

Look Rocketta. Everyone who doesn't have their head in the fucking clouds knows that black students with the same achievements as a white student has an easier time getting into college. That is an undeniable fact and if you can not admit this then their is no reason anyone should debate with you if you continue to deny reality.

and poor people AA is not the same thing, Idiot. If you do AA based on economic background and not race it helps poor white students as well.

Rocketta
Jun 18th, 2005, 05:30 AM
Look Rocketta. Everyone who doesn't have their head in the fucking clouds knows that black students with the same achievements as a white student has an easier time getting into college. That is an undeniable fact and if you can not admit this then their is no reason anyone should debate with you if you continue to deny reality.

and poor people AA is not the same thing, Idiot. If you do AA based on economic background and not race it helps poor white students as well.

ohhhhh, that hurteded me. You called me idiot. :rain:

Anyway, the argument isn't if AA with the same qualifications can get in easier it's that they don't have the same qualifications....some people feel that all things being equal they should be judged on SAT scores and grades but the point is ALL THINGS AREN'T EQUAL or haven't you bothered to read any of the studies posted in this thread? Nevermind I know the answer to that question.

VeeReeDavJCap81
Jun 18th, 2005, 03:32 PM
YS, when discussing anything racial your credibility is pretty much shot. You can fool some people(like SMM) but most people see right through all that hot air you blow.
:worship:

VeeReeDavJCap81
Jun 18th, 2005, 03:35 PM
It's really sad if you think about it. I've heard that even in many European countries such as France, and England blacks are treated 10x better than in the "land of the free and the home of the brave" :rolleyes:

Knizzle
Jun 18th, 2005, 06:09 PM
Well...not much to disagree with in the original article, it seems rather straight-forward. However, some of the comments by black people in this thread are just plain ignorant. I know I'm gonna get bad-repped for what I say, but I'll say it anyway. I know this isn't true for ALL black men, but most of the time, black men are assholes. Just straight up fucking jerks. Period. This is not to say that all are, I do have black male friends (yes yes this is that "old excuse" but it makes sense...if I was racist, why would I have black friends? :retard: ) but really I've lived in three different southern states: Louisiana, Alabama, and Mississippi, and the of the four schools I've been to in those three states, three of them have had a black majority or 50/50 split. And I know black males are assholes from personal experience. I have been taunted, mocked, and harrassed by these people, so I KNOW it's true. This doesn't mean I won't give someone I don't know a fair chance, but I will be more wary because of my experiences. My opinions are not based on racism, or pre-conceived notions, these are based on personal experience, and there's not much that anyone can say to argue that.

This is the most retarded shit I have ever heard.

Knizzle
Jun 18th, 2005, 06:21 PM
oh man. I have to comment on this.
And i have exact figures for Dartmouth. Just cause I know their shit:

Cold, Hard Numbers:
Blacks are admitted at a 147% higher rate than whites
Blacks average 218 points lower on the SAT
Blacks average 1.4 points lower on the GPA scale once they attend the college

Out of how many total though?? Everyone needs tokens to play the game.

On the one hand, blacks are very much at an advantage just by checking the box. And dont anyone say they aren't just because of their race...its TRUE.
At Dartmouth, the files are seperated, and marked with a blue tage :tape:
They then re-read all the blue tags (as well as the other minority tags) seperately before making their admissions decisions. If thats not wrong, I don't know what is.
It's something that I really disagree with, and I've been vocal about it. I refused to meet with the minority recruiter, and I turned down the 10 or so colleges (Yale, Amherts, etc.) who offered to fly me up simply because I'm black. I wanted to get into college because of what I achieved, not because of the color of my skin.

Think of me what you will, but thats what I strongly believe in, and I think you gotta stick to your guns.

I think you are absolutely right in doing this.

HOWEVER, Colleges have a problem in that there are only so many of us to go around. There are more Jewish people in my high school than there are Blacks with 1400's in the whole damn country. And while we could argue all day about why this is true, its true. And while grades and SAT's aren't the only college indicators, they're a pretty big damn part, no?

Us?? I don't understand what Jewish people have to do with anything in relation to black people's SAT scores, but OK.



Eh, I shouldn't have said anything as I'll get attacked, but whatever.
You get "attacked" because of your attitude.

harloo
Jun 18th, 2005, 07:36 PM
I do admit that I'm generalizing here. Sorry. But, come on, I've been exposed to approximately 1000 black males in the last couple of years, and I'd say that's a pretty large number. Now I will atleast say that my experience has been limited to the south, so perhaps it just has to do with the fact that most blacks in the south tend to be poorer than whites, therefore less-educated, therefore more likely to be homophobic assholes. That doesn't change my personal experience and my wariness. From your last post, I can clearly see you're atleast somewhat jaded towards white people, so you're not much different from me. :shrug:

I don't believe you have been exposed to a thousand black males. You probably have never talked to a black male because you are simply scared.

If I'm not mistaken wasn't it Bush who won the red states on homophobic rhetoric?I am pretty sure it was poor white less educated Republicans who voted him in office. Yes their are some black homophobes in the south, but they are not exclusive.

You are dealing with high school where guys in general are more crueler too effiminate males. You may have wen't to a school more populated by black people and are basing your judgement on how you were treated by some of those guys. However, if you went to a school populated by the majority of white students you would have the same problem. Homophobia does not discriminate.

Futhermore, you need to judge people individually on how they treat you. One bad experience with a person of another race does not mean all are the same way. Otherwise you will become paranoid.

WorldWar24
Jun 18th, 2005, 07:41 PM
It's really sad if you think about it. I've heard that even in many European countries such as France, and England blacks are treated 10x better than in the "land of the free and the home of the brave" :rolleyes:

Everyone is equal, nothing more, nothing less. I don't understand why this doesn't happen in the states. There's so much tension all the time and all sides are guilty imo. In the future everyone will be treated the same. It's just not going to take the same time in all societies, and I wonder where is the positive contribution this study has to offer. You should all just chill and try do understand the other points of view

lizchris
Jun 18th, 2005, 08:19 PM
Well...not much to disagree with in the original article, it seems rather straight-forward. However, some of the comments by black people in this thread are just plain ignorant. I know I'm gonna get bad-repped for what I say, but I'll say it anyway. I know this isn't true for ALL black men, but most of the time, black men are assholes. Just straight up fucking jerks. Period. This is not to say that all are, I do have black male friends (yes yes this is that "old excuse" but it makes sense...if I was racist, why would I have black friends? :retard: ) but really I've lived in three different southern states: Louisiana, Alabama, and Mississippi, and the of the four schools I've been to in those three states, three of them have had a black majority or 50/50 split. And I know black males are assholes from personal experience. I have been taunted, mocked, and harrassed by these people, so I KNOW it's true. This doesn't mean I won't give someone I don't know a fair chance, but I will be more wary because of my experiences. My opinions are not based on racism, or pre-conceived notions, these are based on personal experience, and there's not much that anyone can say to argue that.



I remember you saying that you are gay. I ddn't know if you are white, but if you are, chances are if black men treat you the way you say they do, you are probably brining the bad treatment on yourself. I say this because I do and work with white gay men and many of them do not like black men. Why? Because they have the same mentality about black ment that withe women do.

You also mention that you are in the South. As someone who parents were raised in the South, I can tell you that negative attitudes about gays is prevalent among both blacks and whites.

Rtael
Jun 18th, 2005, 08:23 PM
I don't believe you have been exposed to a thousand black males. You probably have never talked to a black male because you are simply scared.

If I'm not mistaken wasn't it Bush who won the red states on homophobic rhetoric?I am pretty sure it was poor white less educated Republicans who voted him in office. Yes their are some black homophobes in the south, but they are not exclusive.

You are dealing with high school where guys in general are more crueler too effiminate males. You may have wen't to a school more populated by black people and are basing your judgement on how you were treated by some of those guys. However, if you went to a school populated by the majority of white students you would have the same problem. Homophobia does not discriminate.

Futhermore, you need to judge people individually on how they treat you. One bad experience with a person of another race does not mean all are the same way. Otherwise you will become paranoid.


I do treat a person absed on how they treat me....maybe you would call ti racist or whatever, I just happen to be slightly more wary when it comes to black males, but I will give anyone the benfit of the doubt at first. As to the second paragraph, I have been to a mostly white school and two that are 50/50 and perhaps I should rephrase what I said...it's not necessarily even that black guys are the ones more likely to be assholeish about it, but they are more likely to be vocal/belligerent harrassers.

As for the first paragraph that's simply not true. When I lived in New Orleans I had four very close friends that I hung out with all the time, 3 black girls and one black guy, so saying I'm too scared to ever even talk to a black guy is simply ridiculous.

Rtael
Jun 18th, 2005, 08:27 PM
I remember you saying that you are gay. I ddn't know if you are white, but if you are, chances are if black men treat you the way you say they do, you are probably brining the bad treatment on yourself. I say this because I do and work with white gay men and many of them do not like black men. Why? Because they have the same mentality about black ment that withe women do.

You also mention that you are in the South. As someone who parents were raised in the South, I can tell you that negative attitudes about gays is prevalent among both blacks and whites.


As for the second paragraph, I address that in my previous post. :p

As for the first, that's not really true. Like I have said before I am wary in regards to black men but that does not mean that I go out of my way to avoid them or anything, and I certainly don't do anything to treat them poorly. Up until recently most of my friends have been black females so that automatically brings me into contact with many black males, and while I don't go out of my way to make friends, I don't do anything to antagonize either.

VeeReeDavJCap81
Jun 18th, 2005, 08:31 PM
. I know I'm gonna get bad-repped for what I say, but I'll say it anyway. I know this isn't true for ALL black men, but most of the time, black men are assholes. Just straight up fucking jerks. Period.

Ever heard of the law of reciprocation?? If you act like a jerk, you'll be treated like one. :wavey:

lizchris
Jun 18th, 2005, 08:40 PM
As for the second paragraph, I address that in my previous post. :p

As for the first, that's not really true. Like I have said before I am wary in regards to black men but that does not mean that I go out of my way to avoid them or anything, and I certainly don't do anything to treat them poorly. Up until recently most of my friends have been black females so that automatically brings me into contact with many black males, and while I don't go out of my way to make friends, I don't do anything to antagonize either.


If what you say is true, then how do you know that balck men are assholes and jerks? If you don't have any personal contract with them, to me it would be hard to know what that person is like.

Rtael
Jun 18th, 2005, 09:59 PM
If what you say is true, then how do you know that balck men are assholes and jerks? If you don't have any personal contract with them, to me it would be hard to know what that person is like.


I haven't had personal contact with them, but I have been harrassed by them, mocked, called names etc.

Diesel
Jun 18th, 2005, 10:48 PM
Ever heard of the law of reciprocation?? If you act like a jerk, you'll be treated like one. :wavey:

:worship: You tend to attract and surround yourself with what you are :lol:

Stamp Paid
Jun 19th, 2005, 01:05 AM
Only 50% of blacks graduate high school????!?!?!

Please son, go rest now. :zzz:

Seriously, the fact that that figure sounds totally plausible for you to use in an argument shows how limited your reaction with high-school age Black people MUST be.

Volcana
Jun 19th, 2005, 01:41 AM
oh man. I have to comment on this.
And i have exact figures for Dartmouth. Just cause I know their shit:

Cold, Hard Numbers:
Blacks are admitted at a 147% higher rate than whites
Blacks average 218 points lower on the SAT
Blacks average 1.4 points lower on the GPA scale once they attend the college

HOWEVER
Only 50% of blacks graduate high school*
Only 1.5% of blacks score a 1300 or higher

SMM - You gotta do research, not just repeat what misinformed celebrities say. Even basic research. I typed "High school graduation rate" into google. The third link down was the US census bureau.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/censusandstatistics/a/highschool.htm first two graphs
An all-time high 85 percent of U.S. adults age 25 and over had completed at least high school in 2003, according to the U.S. Census Bureau. Also in 2003, 27 percent of adults age 25 and over had a college degree, another record.
The percentage of non-Hispanic whites (89 percent) and blacks (80 percent) who had a high school diploma or higher marked new highs. The proportion of blacks rose by 10 percentage points from 1993 to 2003, while non-Hispanic whites saw an increase of 5 percentage points in this category.If you dig around some of the other links, you'll note that most private studies cite lower rates of high school graduation. (NONE as low as 50% for Blacks, but lower.) But the census bureau has far and away the biggest pool of data.

Bill Cosby is a funny and talented man. He's also rather uninformed on a number of educational issues. And his whole arguement that less-affluent Blacks have somehow failed MORE advantaged Blacks is simply devoid of reason. He isn't the first rich man to argue that the poor deserve their lot, and he won't be the last. Either way, he's not an authoritative source on educational issues, no matter how much money he's given to the colleges my parents graduated from.

Remember, errors of that magnitude make all the other statistics you provide seem suspect.

SelesFan70
Jun 19th, 2005, 04:35 AM
Most of my black male friends and lovers say they feel they have to work 1000% harder just to feel "equal" to their counterparts (even black women) at work. This study isn't really surprising to me. I went to a major department store with a black friend of mine, and he told me to watch how he was followed. So we split up and I swear I couldn't believe (at that time 15 years ago) that he was being watched like a hawk by the employees and security while I was totally left to browse and steal if I had wanted to. :o :mad: :(