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tennisIlove09
Jun 6th, 2005, 08:04 AM
5.The most feared weapon in women's tennis is Henin-Hardenne's guts. It is she -- and not Serena Williams (http://sports.yahoo.com/ten/players/134/) or Maria Sharapova (http://sports.yahoo.com/ten/players/403/) -- who now has the regal aura and intimidation factor good for a few games a set.

per4ever
Jun 6th, 2005, 08:25 AM
Serena still has it too I believe, but less then before. Venus totally lost hers..and Maria is losing it it seems..

pigam
Jun 6th, 2005, 08:50 AM
nothing personal, but did Maria ever have it?
Serena most definetly still has her aura, IMHO.

Greenout
Jun 6th, 2005, 08:53 AM
nothing personal, but did Maria ever have it?
Serena most definetly still has her aura, IMHO.



Jon Wertheim is a bandwagon hopper! :lol:


Let's not mistake "WINNER's GLOW" with the "INTIMIDATION
FACTOR"? I personally wouldn't know this answer the hell
he does either. You would have to ask the players, and I doubt
they would tell you what they really think. :p

SJW
Jun 6th, 2005, 09:06 AM
i wonder who he'll say next week...

Lady
Jun 6th, 2005, 09:15 AM
nothing personal, but did Maria ever have it?
Serena most definetly still has her aura, IMHO.

Agreed again!
No surprise, really! ;)

volta
Jun 6th, 2005, 09:25 AM
Maria is starting to build one but saying that Rena doesnīt have it shows how much he knows about Tennis. Vee just lost it and i donīt see the intimidation factor in JH people tend to forget that she won the slam in her best surface from now one things will change

per4ever
Jun 6th, 2005, 09:40 AM
Maria is starting to build one but saying that Rena doesnīt have it shows how much he knows about Tennis. Vee just lost it and i donīt see the intimidation factor in JH people tend to forget that she won the slam in her best surface from now one things will change

saying that JH doesn't have an intimidation factor just shows how much you know about tennis :tape: :tape:

justine&coria
Jun 6th, 2005, 09:43 AM
Serena's intimidating factor is decreasing (she lost to Schiavone 7-5 6-1). And I hope it'll make Serena work harder to find it once again.

Hagar
Jun 6th, 2005, 10:18 AM
BTW, Wertheim mentioned ME in his 50 points! No kidding.

volta
Jun 6th, 2005, 10:41 AM
saying that JH doesn't have an intimidation factor just shows how much you know about tennis :tape: :tape:
:haha: :haha: :haha:

bandabou
Jun 6th, 2005, 11:10 AM
hmm...I think in majors Serena still has it...remember that the girl had to rally from 2-6 4-5 and then 4-5 and saving three mpīs at the Oz...how did she do that?

pigam
Jun 6th, 2005, 11:11 AM
BTW, Wertheim mentioned ME in his 50 points! No kidding.
really? where? :)

lucashg
Jun 6th, 2005, 11:13 AM
IMO - Serena, Justine and even Maria have it. You could also throw Kim in the mix.

moby
Jun 6th, 2005, 11:14 AM
I don't think Maria has an intimidation factor yet. Maybe on grass, but I'm not sure. Serena still has hers for sure, while Venus' one has almost completely diminished.

JHH's one is interesting. I don't get the sense that players are scared of her right off the bat, that is they don't freeze like they do when they had to play Serena, Steffi or Venus and Martina in their heydays. However, the players do get very tight once they are about to close out the set (and especially match). They start questioning themselves "What is she going to do now? Oh no, I don't want to be on the wrong end of a comeback."

Junex
Jun 6th, 2005, 11:22 AM
This just confirms Wertheims credibility!
I think his sense of knowledge is comaprable to some posters in this board.

I dnt really think Justine has intimidating factor, like what Serena had and Venus used to have 00-03.

Justine doesn't blow away opponents, other players were never afraid to play her. She is a very playable opponent only that Justine has always a reserve for everything and her sheer talent and determination makes her win matches, not her being unbeatable!

bandabou
Jun 6th, 2005, 11:24 AM
And really like the match against Sveta, wasnīt it more Sveta being afraid to hit the winner than Justine scaring her? I mean she did it against Myskina too last year...and never accused Myskina of having any aura.

mykarma
Jun 6th, 2005, 11:34 AM
Serena still has it too I believe, but less then before. Venus totally lost hers..and Maria is losing it it seems..I don't think Maria has ever been a fear factor. She's good and has the game to get to that point in the future. but is not there yet.

Junex
Jun 6th, 2005, 11:37 AM
I don't think Maria has ever been a fear factor. She's good and has the game to get to that point in the future. but is not there yet.


with the crop of players coming, and the popularity of sports psychologist nowadays, i think that "intimidating factor" would become obsolete!IMHHO

Lady
Jun 6th, 2005, 11:42 AM
Serena has it, and Justine, for whatever reason, has it too. Otherwise, Justine couldn't be able to win so many titles on clay this year, because honestly her level of tennis wasn't that good!

Serena rarely blows away opponents these days either, just look at her AO, but she won in the end. ;)

Lady
Jun 6th, 2005, 11:44 AM
I don't think Maria has ever been a fear factor. She's good and has the game to get to that point in the future. but is not there yet.

I agree. Maria never dominated yet, never.

She just won Tokyo & Doha, but was beaten by Lindsay later (6-0 6-0), Kim - in 2 sets (where was the intimidation then), lost to Justine - twice in 2 sets.

Rub
Jun 6th, 2005, 12:03 PM
justine has built up hers... it's the most formidable! :dance:

SerenaSlam
Jun 6th, 2005, 12:07 PM
Serena has it, and Justine, for whatever reason, has it too. Otherwise, Justine couldn't be able to win so many titles on clay this year, because honestly her level of tennis wasn't that good!

Serena rarely blows away opponents these days either, just look at her AO, but she won in the end. ;)
i see what you are trying to say. its a clay initmiadtion thing. when justine hits the clay everyone will be so far from not intimidated and the thing about that is eve justine knows this.

i mean look at her. didin't she win the 2003 french beating serena on her best surface in a tough 3 set cheating match and serena came out on (you can say her best surface) and whipped her easily. its evident she really only EXCELLS on once surface put can play on the others. she just really has no chance against the big hitters when it comes to the likes of grass and hardcourts....thus why she has only beaten a williams and sharapova on clay in the career meetings.

densuprun
Jun 6th, 2005, 12:16 PM
A bit off-topic: to those who believe that Maria is now scared of Justine.
Maria is also the only one who beat Justine this year. She is not gonna be scared, afraid or even apprehensive about playing JHH at Wimbledon. Now they will be playing at Maria's turf, not Justine's. I am sure she will be looking forward to pay back one loss.
Of course, you will be saying that Justine lost at her first tournament but I doubt that Maria is thinking about that. You want to be confident and focused going into each match. To do that you don't need to know the "objective" relative strength of your opponent. Maria won't discount her victory over Justine as JHH's fans might. For her it will be more important than the subsequent two losses. She will concentrate on the fact that she is better than Justine on faster surfaces and will go confident into their future match at Wimbledon. Maria's confidence is as high as ever. She knows she did better on clay than last year and that is good enough for her at the moment. She will expect to beat everyone at Wimbledon. Whether that confidence will get into the opponents' heads... we'll have to wait and see.

Hagar
Jun 6th, 2005, 12:19 PM
really? where? :)

Point 7. It's about mens' tennis.
BTW, this is the first time EVER I send him something.
Someone on www.menstennisforums (http://www.menstennisforums) had posted this, I was reading it, I read "Hildegard Vandromme from Brussels" and a couple of seconds later, I realize: "This is ME."... :devil:

manu
Jun 6th, 2005, 12:37 PM
Point 7. It's about mens' tennis.
BTW, this is the first time EVER I send him something.
Someone on www.menstennisforums (http://www.menstennisforums/) had posted this, I was reading it, I read "Hildegard Vandromme from Brussels" and a couple of seconds later, I realize: "This is ME."... :devil:

:lol: though it's very clever, I have my doubts about the birthday-logic ;)

pigam
Jun 6th, 2005, 12:41 PM
Point 7. It's about mens' tennis.
BTW, this is the first time EVER I send him something.
Someone on www.menstennisforums (http://www.menstennisforums) had posted this, I was reading it, I read "Hildegard Vandromme from Brussels" and a couple of seconds later, I realize: "This is ME."... :devil:
cool :p (lil off topic and kinda stupid question, but do you know Hildegard Von Bingen?)

volta
Jun 6th, 2005, 01:11 PM
I don't think Maria has an intimidation factor yet. Maybe on grass, but I'm not sure. Serena still has hers for sure, while Venus' one has almost completely diminished.

JHH's one is interesting. I don't get the sense that players are scared of her right off the bat, that is they don't freeze like they do when they had to play Serena, Steffi or Venus and Martina in their heydays. However, the players do get very tight once they are about to close out the set (and especially match). They start questioning themselves "What is she going to do now? Oh no, I don't want to be on the wrong end of a comeback."
thank you for speaking my mind asside from the Maria one that is lol

DA FOREHAND
Jun 6th, 2005, 02:48 PM
5.The most feared weapon in women's tennis is Henin-Hardenne's guts. It is she -- and not Serena Williams (http://sports.yahoo.com/ten/players/134/) or Maria Sharapova (http://sports.yahoo.com/ten/players/403/) -- who now has the regal aura and intimidation factor good for a few games a set.


If that were the case why'd she struggle in so many of her matches on her favorite surface?

Hagar
Jun 6th, 2005, 02:50 PM
cool :p (lil off topic and kinda stupid question, but do you know Hildegard Von Bingen?)

I know who Hildegard von Bingen is, but I don't know her personally. I might be older than most posters here, but not that old. :devil:

pigam
Jun 6th, 2005, 02:52 PM
I know who Hildegard von Bingen is, but I don't know her personally. I might be older than most posters here, but not that old. :devil:
lol ;) Just that I have something with her music, and thought maybe you where named after her or something ;). Hildegard isn't such a common name is it?

ys
Jun 6th, 2005, 02:54 PM
Just wait for Wimbledon end and he'll change his tune again.. It's just clay, nothing else. On hardcourts Justine's intimidation factor against Maria didn't prove to be enough last time they played.

23TwentyThree23
Jun 6th, 2005, 03:20 PM
I tend to agree with him...serena is losing hers, venus has lost hers entirely, juju is the best at the moment, but maria has a certain air about her. i think people will be surprised at her level of play now she's back on the grass - i remember how awesome she seemed last year!

TF Chipmunk
Jun 6th, 2005, 03:21 PM
JHH's one is interesting. I don't get the sense that players are scared of her right off the bat, that is they don't freeze like they do when they had to play Serena, Steffi or Venus and Martina in their heydays. However, the players do get very tight once they are about to close out the set (and especially match). They start questioning themselves "What is she going to do now? Oh no, I don't want to be on the wrong end of a comeback."
:worship: :worship: :worship: Exactly what I was thinking. Justine's opponents get scared when they're ahead because they KNOW Justine can come back in an instant. That's what happened to Svetlana at the FO. She knew, from Warsaw, that Justine could come back and win. And she did! That's the aura that Justine has, her capability to come back.

rikvanlooy
Jun 6th, 2005, 03:48 PM
i see what you are trying to say. its a clay initmiadtion thing. when justine hits the clay everyone will be so far from not intimidated and the thing about that is eve justine knows this.

i mean look at her. didin't she win the 2003 french beating serena on her best surface in a tough 3 set cheating match and serena came out on (you can say her best surface) and whipped her easily. its evident she really only EXCELLS on once surface put can play on the others. she just really has no chance against the big hitters when it comes to the likes of grass and hardcourts....thus why she has only beaten a williams and sharapova on clay in the career meetings.

JHH : winner of US Open, AUS Open, Olympics

on hardcourt

Yes, she is shit on hardcourt :p

Lady
Jun 6th, 2005, 03:59 PM
If that were the case why'd she struggle in so many of her matches on her favorite surface?

Because she's not playing good tennis?
Because she's just back on tour and still lacks consistency in her matches? :scratch:

ys
Jun 6th, 2005, 04:02 PM
JHH : winner of US Open, AUS Open, Olympics

on hardcourt

Yes, she is shit on hardcourt :p

In how many of those great tournaments did the best hardcourt player of modern time - Serena Williams - feature?

Lady
Jun 6th, 2005, 04:04 PM
In how many of those great tournaments did the best hardcourt player of modern time - Serena Williams - feature?

In how many tournaments the best hardcourt player of modern time - Serena Williams - will play this year?

ys
Jun 6th, 2005, 04:05 PM
In how many tournaments the best hardcourt player of modern time - Serena Williams - will play this year?

I don't know.. But in those that, I suppose, JHH is not going to win.. :lol:

Lady
Jun 6th, 2005, 04:08 PM
I don't know.. But in those that, I suppose, JHH is not going to win.. :lol:

Yep, as Serena played Miami, Dubai, Paris on hard courts this year, and won them all!

You know, even if Justine loses to Serena on hard courts, that means she's shit on this surface by your logic? Damn, i thought better of you!

But keep on predicting! :banana:

After all Sveta won RG 2005, and Justine didn't win any tournaments on hardcourts in 2003 according to your brilliance.
So, honestly, thank you for remimding us, how bad Justine is! :)

DA FOREHAND
Jun 6th, 2005, 04:08 PM
Because she's not playing good tennis?
Because she's just back on tour and still lacks consistency in her matches? :scratch:
And the players playing her aren't afraid to play thier games and go for it...hence less intimidation.

Lady
Jun 6th, 2005, 04:10 PM
And the players playing her aren't afraid to play thier games and go for it...hence less intimidation.

Yes, but those days players are not afraid to play their games against Serena as well, you know.

Spunky83
Jun 6th, 2005, 04:15 PM
My mother was commentating on my brotherīs facial expression lately (we were laughing about him, he was mad) using the words: "Donīt give me that intimidating Sharapova look, it wonīt work anyway!" :lol:

I was laughing my ass off!

DA FOREHAND
Jun 6th, 2005, 04:15 PM
Yes, but those days players are not afraid to play their games against Serena as well, you know.
ok and?


I was addressing the thread, didn't know Serena had anything to do w/it.

Put Lindsay on a hardcourt in the summer in California, and you've got intimidation.

bandabou
Jun 6th, 2005, 04:47 PM
Yep, as Serena played Miami, Dubai, Paris on hard courts this year, and won them all!

You know, even if Justine loses to Serena on hard courts, that means she's shit on this surface by your logic? Damn, i thought better of you!

But keep on predicting! :banana:

After all Sveta won RG 2005, and Justine didn't win any tournaments on hardcourts in 2003 according to your brilliance.
So, honestly, thank you for remimding us, how bad Justine is! :)


So say it: Justine is the better hardcourt player than Serena? Ok...can be.

ys
Jun 6th, 2005, 04:49 PM
Yep, as Serena played Miami, Dubai, Paris on hard courts this year, and won them all!

I know.. Justine did..

rottweily
Jun 6th, 2005, 04:52 PM
I know.. Justine did..

She didn't participate in Dubai and Paris :p
And equalled Serena's performance in Miami, after a long layoff :p

harloo
Jun 6th, 2005, 05:03 PM
I was not impressed with any female tennis player at the FO this year. Justine was the best of the bunch but that is not saying much.

Weirthless likes to bandwagon hop anyways. Next week he will be saying Serena is the best if she has a good showing somewhere. :rolleyes:

Julia1968
Jun 6th, 2005, 05:15 PM
This just confirms Wertheims credibility!
I think his sense of knowledge is comaprable to some posters in this board.

I dnt really think Justine has intimidating factor, like what Serena had and Venus used to have 00-03.

Justine doesn't blow away opponents, other players were never afraid to play her. She is a very playable opponent only that Justine has always a reserve for everything and her sheer talent and determination makes her win matches, not her being unbeatable!

2005

Justine Henin-Hardenne 27-1, undefeated on clay.
Most victories on tour: 4

Enough said.

Julia1968
Jun 6th, 2005, 05:18 PM
I was not impressed with any female tennis player at the FO this year. Justine was the best of the bunch but that is not saying much.

Weirthless likes to bandwagon hop anyways. Next week he will be saying Serena is the best if she has a good showing somewhere. :rolleyes:

If you look at the results in the four tournaments preceeding the French Open and add it to the French Open, Justine simply dominated. 27-1, undefeated on clay, most wins on tour in 2005.

Julia1968
Jun 6th, 2005, 05:19 PM
Yes, but those days players are not afraid to play their games against Serena as well, you know.

Or Venus. Notice how those young girls really tee-off when they play her.

VeeReeDavJCap81
Jun 6th, 2005, 05:21 PM
2005

Justine Henin-Hardenne 27-1, undefeated on clay.
Most victories on tour: 4

Enough said.

Come on now, everyone knows that Justine is far and beyond the best clay courter on the women's side. She does have an intimidation factor on clay, I'll agree with that. However, who do you think a player would be more scared to play at Wimbledon, Maria or Justine? Who do you think a player would be more scared to play at the US Open Serena or Justine? Keep it real. Not to take anything away from Justine because she has the goods to beat anyone. However, there are players who have the goods to beat her as well

harloo
Jun 6th, 2005, 05:24 PM
Come on now, everyone knows that Justine is far and beyond the best clay courter on the women's side. She does have an intimidation factor on clay, I'll agree with that. However, who do you think a player would be more scared to play at Wimbledon, Maria or Justine? Who do you think a player would be more scared to play at the US Open Serena or Justine? Keep it real. Not to take anything away from Justine because she has the goods to beat anyone. However, there are players who have the goods to beat her as well

Summed it up quite well. IMO, noone really stepped up during the clay season, so the best clay courter won everything. I

bandabou
Jun 6th, 2005, 05:32 PM
Come on now, everyone knows that Justine is far and beyond the best clay courter on the women's side. She does have an intimidation factor on clay, I'll agree with that. However, who do you think a player would be more scared to play at Wimbledon, Maria or Justine? Who do you think a player would be more scared to play at the US Open Serena or Justine? Keep it real. Not to take anything away from Justine because she has the goods to beat anyone. However, there are players who have the goods to beat her as well

Brilliant...

iWill
Jun 6th, 2005, 05:47 PM
Come on now, everyone knows that Justine is far and beyond the best clay courter on the women's side. She does have an intimidation factor on clay, I'll agree with that. However, who do you think a player would be more scared to play at Wimbledon, Maria or Justine? Who do you think a player would be more scared to play at the US Open Serena or Justine? Keep it real. Not to take anything away from Justine because she has the goods to beat anyone. However, there are players who have the goods to beat her as well

Exactly right! Justine is only intimidating on clay but not completely. She was the best clay court player this season so her winning the FO is in a way expected. Anything less would've been dissapointing to JHH fans. Same with Serena and Maria on grass if they took early losses people would be dissapointed because on their best surface they are expected to win. She stepped up in the clay season pretty much uncontested now lets see what happens on grass. And hardcourts where IMO only the strong survive since the surface is an even playing field.

shap_half
Jun 6th, 2005, 05:54 PM
I think Serena definitely still has it. I don't know if Justine is really that feared. I think she is probably feared in three sets. If you don't beat her in two, the likelyhood of beating her in three is pretty slim.

rottweily
Jun 6th, 2005, 06:15 PM
To end this stupid thread: No one has an intimidation factor nowadays.
I think Wertheim confuses intimidation factor with mental toughness.

tennisIlove09
Jun 6th, 2005, 06:18 PM
hmm...I think in majors Serena still has it...remember that the girl had to rally from 2-6 4-5 and then 4-5 and saving three mpīs at the Oz...how did she do that?

not by having an intimidation factor.

bandabou
Jun 6th, 2005, 06:25 PM
not by having an intimidation factor.

Well by some she wasnīt the better player either, so..

faste5683
Jun 6th, 2005, 06:29 PM
JHH : winner of US Open, AUS Open, Olympics

on hardcourt

Yes, she is shit on hardcourt :p

Thank you. Thinking that Justine can't kick ass on hardcourts or grass is
desperately wishful thinking.

:wavey:

Filip!
Jun 6th, 2005, 06:49 PM
Bandabou, first you say: Serena had to save matchpoints, so she has an intimidation factor. After that, you say: Justine had to save matchpoints, so she doesn't has an intimidation factor, because her opponent already lost before when she had matchpoints.

Come on, just be honest: nobody wants to play against Justine, just like nobody wants to see Serena's name in her half the draw. The way how Juju played already this season is incredible. She also won a lot of tournies on hardcourts too... Justine is not just a claycourter without an aura, this girls is a girl to beat. Just like Serena.

K.U.C.W-R.V
Jun 6th, 2005, 07:15 PM
So say it: Justine is the better hardcourt player than Serena? Ok...can be.

On a slowish AO hardcourt I think Justine will beat Serena - on fast USO hardcourt I have my doubts. On grass I have many doubts.

Only time will tell...

Alfie
Jun 6th, 2005, 07:23 PM
To end this stupid thread: No one has an intimidation factor nowadays.
I think Wertheim confuses intimidation factor with mental toughness.

Have to agree. No one has the intimidation factor now.

Part of the problem is that no one seems to be fit enough. Serena and Venus do not have the intimidation factor that they once had. Players believe that they have a chance against the WS because they're often injured and not playing at 100% fitness level. I am amazed by what Serena did to win against Sharapova at the Australian open, but Sharapova lost not because she was intimidated by Serena, but rather scared to lose/scared to hit an unforced error and stopped going for her shots while Serena in her supreme confidence stayed aggressive.

Justine has a fabulous game, but will never be as physically imposing as the Williams sisters due to her physique and health problems. She's not the kind of player who usually blows her opponents off the court, but has to work her way into matches like she did this year at the French Open. Like Sharapova at the Australian Open, Kuznetsova at the French lost because she was scared to lose and played passively on those match points. She stopped going for her shots while Justine held onto her nerve. Serena and Justine haven't been blowing their opponents off the court this year. Players believe they can give these girls a good match.

Denise4925
Jun 6th, 2005, 08:50 PM
Wertheim is a bandwagon jumper, like so many in this thread have said. There is no intimidation factor any more because the women's field is so deep. Personally, I'm glad all of this intimidation talk is gone. When my fave beats the crap out of another player, I want it said that it's because my fave is just that good, not because the other player was intimidated and choked.

I feel so many can win Wimby this year, but the faves still remain the faves, i.e. Serena, Maria and Lindsay. I just don't see Justine as being a fave at Wimby with her game, because when she was at her best in 2003, Serena blew her away at Wimby. But, I don't count her out either, as I do not count out Venus.

bandabou
Jun 6th, 2005, 10:03 PM
Bandabou, first you say: Serena had to save matchpoints, so she has an intimidation factor. After that, you say: Justine had to save matchpoints, so she doesn't has an intimidation factor, because her opponent already lost before when she had matchpoints.

Come on, just be honest: nobody wants to play against Justine, just like nobody wants to see Serena's name in her half the draw. The way how Juju played already this season is incredible. She also won a lot of tournies on hardcourts too... Justine is not just a claycourter without an aura, this girls is a girl to beat. Just like Serena.


Thatīs what Iīm saying....you donīt want to see either of them on your side of the draw, it ainīt like youīd rather have Justine than Serena or Serena than Justine like Wertheim is saying.

bandabou
Jun 6th, 2005, 10:06 PM
On a slowish AO hardcourt I think Justine will beat Serena - on fast USO hardcourt I have my doubts. On grass I have many doubts.

Only time will tell...

So the conclusion is still: the faster the surface the more doubtful a justine win becomes?

Bright Red
Jun 7th, 2005, 02:23 AM
To end this stupid thread: No one has an intimidation factor nowadays.
I think Wertheim confuses intimidation factor with mental toughness.

You beat me to the punch. I agree 100%.

The level of the women's game has risen. No one worth mentioning is really intimidated by anyone anymore. Not even a healthy Serena, Justine, Maria or anyone. Nothing wrong with that. That's good for the game.

tennisIlove09
Jun 7th, 2005, 02:29 AM
Well by some she wasnīt the better player either, so..

saving mps doesntmean you have an intimidation factor. Serena took it to Maria on those points, no lie. But Maria's level at 6-2 5-4 dropped considerably, so Serena got lucky as well. It was an amazing fight, no lie...but there was some luck involved. Whenever you save mp's, there's luck involved.

fammmmedspin
Jun 7th, 2005, 03:14 AM
And really like the match against Sveta, wasnīt it more Sveta being afraid to hit the winner than Justine scaring her? I mean she did it against Myskina too last year...and never accused Myskina of having any aura.

Myskina was the number 1 Russian with the H2H on her side and was the player all Russians had trouble with. Game for game she still would be on her 2004 form, Sveta 2004 is perfectly understandable.

Sveta 2005 made no sense. Justine had been poor for much of the match and looked physicaly dubious. Sveta had done the hard work, had served out a GS by then and had a far bigger melt down.

deja_entendu
Jun 7th, 2005, 05:18 AM
Ever since she bulked up, Henin has been nothing short of one of the most brilliant hard court players of her generation, being one of the few to capture the Australian Open, US Open, and the Olympics. Not to mention her impeccable hard court whippings of hard court divas Kim Clijsters and Lindsay Davenport when Henin was playing well. She has not been a clay-court specialist or anything close to that since mid 2003 -- this is not the same Henin who will lose to any power player on a fast surface, because she IS a power player who averages harder serves and ground strokes than most of the women in the top 10.

jojoseph
Jun 7th, 2005, 06:00 AM
It's all about mentality. Going by her demeanor and comments, she's all about knowing she's gonna go out and demolish anyone she plays. I think most players pick up on this and since Justine rarely shows any sign of problems or nervousness, it's tough for an opponent to feed off of anything negative from her. While she's a great player, it's just gonna take an opponent with the desire to not only play tough, but really think she's gonna win, to knock her off.

Denise4925
Jun 7th, 2005, 06:38 AM
Ever since she bulked up, Henin has been nothing short of one of the most brilliant hard court players of her generation, being one of the few to capture the Australian Open, US Open, and the Olympics. Not to mention her impeccable hard court whippings of hard court divas Kim Clijsters and Lindsay Davenport when Henin was playing well. She has not been a clay-court specialist or anything close to that since mid 2003 -- this is not the same Henin who will lose to any power player on a fast surface, because she IS a power player who averages harder serves and ground strokes than most of the women in the top 10.
:haha: :haha: :haha:

Denise4925
Jun 7th, 2005, 06:39 AM
It's all about mentality. Going by her demeanor and comments, she's all about knowing she's gonna go out and demolish anyone she plays. I think most players pick up on this and since Justine rarely shows any sign of problems or nervousness, it's tough for an opponent to feed off of anything negative from her. While she's a great player, it's just gonna take an opponent with the desire to not only play tough, but really think she's gonna win, to knock her off.
She looked pretty nervous against Serena at Wimby '03.

Prizeidiot
Jun 7th, 2005, 07:30 AM
I think Serena can still intimidate to some extent (ask Elena D :sad: ) But as far as the most intimidating... definitely Justine at this point. Serena hasn't been consistent this year, and Justine has been in the form player on tour. From the quarters onwards, she really made short work of her opponents at Roland Garros, and those players certainly weren't hacks.

moby
Jun 7th, 2005, 10:52 AM
JHH : winner of US Open, AUS Open, Olympics

on hardcourt

Yes, she is shit on hardcourt :pOh come on. If you've been reading this board long enough, you'll know that Miami is the biggest hardcourt tournament in the whole world, and Justine hasn't won that, thereby proving that she's just another player on the hardcourts. QED.

Who cares about Grand Slams and Olympics when you can have a Tier 1? :tape:

pigam
Jun 7th, 2005, 11:10 AM
Oh come on. If you've been reading this board long enough, you'll know that Miami is the biggest hardcourt tournament in the whole world, and Justine hasn't won that, thereby proving that she's just another player on the hardcourts. QED.

Who cares about Grand Slams and Olympics when you can have a Tier 1? :tape:
:lol: you know my sister won a hardcourt tournament in my city, I think Wertheim forgot about her intimidation factor.

bandabou
Jun 7th, 2005, 11:12 AM
saving mps doesntmean you have an intimidation factor. Serena took it to Maria on those points, no lie. But Maria's level at 6-2 5-4 dropped considerably, so Serena got lucky as well. It was an amazing fight, no lie...but there was some luck involved. Whenever you save mp's, there's luck involved.

Yep...Serena was really lucky to hit those two winners on mp....

le bon vivant
Jun 7th, 2005, 02:40 PM
Serena wins a slam beating the World's #2, 3, and 1 in succession (#3 and #1 rather resoundingly, and its her swan song. Juju struggles on her best surface, the recipient of a Sveta choke, Masha on clay, beating headcase Petrova and 30 year old Mary Pierce in the final, and shes the favorite for Wimbledon and has the new intimidation factor. WTF?

le bon vivant
Jun 7th, 2005, 02:53 PM
saving mps doesntmean you have an intimidation factor. Serena took it to Maria on those points, no lie. But Maria's level at 6-2 5-4 dropped considerably, so Serena got lucky as well. It was an amazing fight, no lie...but there was some luck involved. Whenever you save mp's, there's luck involved.

Well seeing as how Serena was supposed to have broken Sharapova's serve when she was up 4-3 Ad-Serena, but got jacked by a bad call, there never should have been a 5-4 to begin with.

Plus, Maria level of play didnt drop until Serena held to go up 7-6, because you could see it in her eyes during the changeover, she did not have the energy/heart/belief/whatever to keep fighting to win the match 9-7 at the very least. She played a shitty game down 6-7, (error, error, stupid backhand volley) and Serena made her move. The only luck involved was that Serena was lucky that sharapova didnt ace her on that first match point and gave her a look at a second serve, thats it.

griffin
Jun 7th, 2005, 03:07 PM
Serena wins a slam beating the World's #2, 3, and 1 in succession (#3 and #1 rather resoundingly, and its her swan song. Juju struggles on her best surface, the recipient of a Sveta choke, Masha on clay, beating headcase Petrova and 30 year old Mary Pierce in the final, and shes the favorite for Wimbledon and has the new intimidation factor. WTF?

Your using logic/reason to argue something that is inherently illogical, Justin.

This isn't about what Serena or Justine can do, it's what their opponents think THEY can do when they play against them. Do they believe they can beat them? (not will, CAN). People used to regularly walk on court versus Serena (Venus, too, at one point) and believe they had a snowball's chance in hell of winning. That's the "intimidation factor" and a player who has it can probably count on winning a couple of games per match on that alone - it can help them stay out of trouble when they screw up because their opponent isn't thinking she can win, so isn't ready to take advantage.

But the top players in particular don't think like that about Serena anymore. They've got it in their heads that they can beat her - doesn't mean they will, and it doesn't mean they disregard her abilities - but it does mean she's not going to get any free games off of the fear factor. And that's not a knock on Serena.

That said, I"m not sure Juju's really picked it up, either, and I don't think Maria ever had it.

tennisIlove09
Jun 7th, 2005, 03:36 PM
Yep...Serena was really lucky to hit those two winners on mp....

obviously you cant read. I clearly said in my post "Serena took it to her on those points" ;) Read the post entirely before you reply :)

Denise4925
Jun 7th, 2005, 04:09 PM
Serena wins a slam beating the World's #2, 3, and 1 in succession (#3 and #1 rather resoundingly, and its her swan song. Juju struggles on her best surface, the recipient of a Sveta choke, Masha on clay, beating headcase Petrova and 30 year old Mary Pierce in the final, and shes the favorite for Wimbledon and has the new intimidation factor. WTF?
:haha: :haha: :haha: My thoughts exactly. :rolleyes:

turt
Jun 7th, 2005, 04:24 PM
And when was the last time Justine lost her first match in a tournament? :haha:

Serena's abilities are not questioned, but seriously she hasn't performed so well since January, and she has been playing! She's played more tournaments than Justine but still Justine won 3 more (2 Tier I and 1 Tier II)...

bandabou
Jun 7th, 2005, 04:26 PM
obviously you cant read. I clearly said in my post "Serena took it to her on those points" ;) Read the post entirely before you reply :)

I thought I read something about being lucky...

bandabou
Jun 7th, 2005, 04:29 PM
And when was the last time Justine lost her first match in a tournament? :haha:

Serena's abilities are not questioned, but seriously she hasn't performed so well since January, and she has been playing! She's played more tournaments than Justine but still Justine won 3 more (2 Tier I and 1 Tier II)...

Very smart...comeback happened during the heart of the clay-season, which happens to be your best surface.

Now Serena playing her 1st match since injuring her ankle on clay, receipt for the disaster.

turt
Jun 7th, 2005, 04:33 PM
And since when is Miami played on clay? :confused:

Denise4925
Jun 7th, 2005, 04:37 PM
And when was the last time Justine lost her first match in a tournament? :haha:

Serena's abilities are not questioned, but seriously she hasn't performed so well since January, and she has been playing! She's played more tournaments than Justine but still Justine won 3 more (2 Tier I and 1 Tier II)...
Maybe the reason she hasn't performed well is because she's been either injured or ill. Justine didn't perform well either at RG '04 or Wimby '04 or US Open '04 or AO '05 (did she even play) because she was either sick or injured, so what's your point? Hopefully Serena will be healthier from now on, as Justine has been.

bandabou
Jun 7th, 2005, 04:43 PM
And since when is Miami played on clay? :confused:

Thx...you just made my point...after Miami, whatīs next? Amelia Island, Charleston, etc right?

bandabou
Jun 7th, 2005, 04:44 PM
Exactly....Serenaīs been start, stop, start, stop.....thatīs why her results havenīt been as nicely as Justineīs...

shap_half
Jun 7th, 2005, 04:59 PM
Very smart...comeback happened during the heart of the clay-season, which happens to be your best surface.

Now Serena playing her 1st match since injuring her ankle on clay, receipt for the disaster.

I'm not trying to add to the fire, but didn't Serena say after her loss that she was feeling well and that her ankle had nothing to do with her loss?

Justine came back on hardcourts on her first match back since being inflicted with an energy sapping virus and a knee injury and still managed to get to the same round as Serena (winning against better players and losing against a better player and atleast she managed to win a set). And this was on a surface that favored Serena than Justine.

turt
Jun 7th, 2005, 05:06 PM
Exactly....Serenaīs been start, stop, start, stop.....thatīs why her results havenīt been as nicely as Justineīs...
Well she said in Rome her ankle didn't bother her... Actually I was surprised to see her withdraw from RG because of an ankle injury and then going to movies premieres with high-heels shoes... :confused:

bandabou
Jun 7th, 2005, 05:14 PM
I see...man, this Justine really is something else. Much much better than Serena, for sure.

harloo
Jun 7th, 2005, 05:20 PM
Your using logic/reason to argue something that is inherently illogical, Justin.

This isn't about what Serena or Justine can do, it's what their opponents think THEY can do when they play against them. Do they believe they can beat them? (not will, CAN). People used to regularly walk on court versus Serena (Venus, too, at one point) and believe they had a snowball's chance in hell of winning. That's the "intimidation factor" and a player who has it can probably count on winning a couple of games per match on that alone - it can help them stay out of trouble when they screw up because their opponent isn't thinking she can win, so isn't ready to take advantage.

But the top players in particular don't think like that about Serena anymore. They've got it in their heads that they can beat her - doesn't mean they will, and it doesn't mean they disregard her abilities - but it does mean she's not going to get any free games off of the fear factor. And that's not a knock on Serena.

That said, I"m not sure Juju's really picked it up, either, and I don't think Maria ever had it.

I find that the "intimidation factor" theory was so overhyped when the sisters were dominating the tour. IMO, it was a way to discredit their ability as tennis players and to credit their success solely to brute power and scaring their oppponents shitless.

The fact is that Venus and Serena were just better than everyone else at the time. They both raised the bar for women's tennis and that should be celebrated. Other players worked harder and answered. Both sisters became disinterested in tennis and more interested in their other things which comes with age.

Denise4925
Jun 7th, 2005, 05:30 PM
I'm not trying to add to the fire, but didn't Serena say after her loss that she was feeling well and that her ankle had nothing to do with her loss?

Justine came back on hardcourts on her first match back since being inflicted with an energy sapping virus and a knee injury and still managed to get to the same round as Serena (winning against better players and losing against a better player and atleast she managed to win a set). And this was on a surface that favored Serena than Justine.
Yeah, just like Serena came back last year after an 8 month lay off to win the whole thing. :rolleyes:

Denise4925
Jun 7th, 2005, 05:32 PM
Well she said in Rome her ankle didn't bother her... Actually I was surprised to see her withdraw from RG because of an ankle injury and then going to movies premieres with high-heels shoes... :confused:
Did you ever think that she could have reinjured the ankle training for RG? :confused: And, pray tell what movie premier did you see pics of her at with heels on after she withdrew from RG? Please provide a link.

bandabou
Jun 7th, 2005, 05:33 PM
I find that the "intimidation factor" theory was so overhyped when the sisters were dominating the tour. IMO, it was a way to discredit their ability as tennis players and to credit their success solely to brute power and scaring their oppponents shitless.

The fact is that Venus and Serena were just better than everyone else at the time. They both raised the bar for women's tennis and that should be celebrated. Other players worked harder and answered. Both sisters became disinterested in tennis and more interested in their other things which comes with age.

Bottom line...

Denise4925
Jun 7th, 2005, 05:34 PM
I find that the "intimidation factor" theory was so overhyped when the sisters were dominating the tour. IMO, it was a way to discredit their ability as tennis players and to credit their success solely to brute power and scaring their oppponents shitless.

The fact is that Venus and Serena were just better than everyone else at the time. They both raised the bar for women's tennis and that should be celebrated. Other players worked harder and answered. Both sisters became disinterested in tennis and more interested in their other things which comes with age.
That is exactly what I tried to say several posts ago. Who cares about the so called intimidation factor. If it's gone it's better for the sport. The field is deeper and now when my fav beats an opponent, it's because she was the better player on that day.

shap_half
Jun 7th, 2005, 05:50 PM
Yeah, just like Serena came back last year after an 8 month lay off to win the whole thing. :rolleyes:

Ok good for her. I'm not talking about that. I'm responding to Bandabou's comment about Justine coming back in the heart of the clay court season which is just not true. In fact, she came back in Miami on hard and reach the same round as Serena did after Justine just recently came back from a 7 month lay off.

And if Serena had to play who Justine this year to win last year, Serena wouldn't have won.

turt
Jun 7th, 2005, 05:55 PM
Did you ever think that she could have reinjured the ankle training for RG? :confused: And, pray tell what movie premier did you see pics of her at with heels on after she withdrew from RG? Please provide a link.
Here it is:
http://img134.echo.cx/img134/2713/fm5104825serenawikravit8ny.jpg

("Entourage" premiere)

griffin
Jun 7th, 2005, 05:56 PM
I find that the "intimidation factor" theory was so overhyped when the sisters were dominating the tour. IMO, it was a way to discredit their ability as tennis players and to credit their success solely to brute power and scaring their oppponents shitless.

The fact is that Venus and Serena were just better than everyone else at the time. They both raised the bar for women's tennis and that should be celebrated. Other players worked harder and answered. Both sisters became disinterested in tennis and more interested in their other things which comes with age.

Would it have made you feel better had I also mentioned Hingis, Graf and Nav having it at one point? Because I would have but I was trying to save myself the excess typing. They are the most recent examples, but the concept wasn't invented for them.

Of course they were flat-out better than everyone else - but that doesn't mean they were invincible. It DID help them that players were inclined to think they were - just like it helped Hingis/Graf/Nav/Seles...before them.

bandabou
Jun 7th, 2005, 05:57 PM
Ok good for her. I'm not talking about that. I'm responding to Bandabou's comment about Justine coming back in the heart of the clay court season which is just not true. In fact, she came back in Miami on hard and reach the same round as Serena did after Justine just recently came back from a 7 month lay off.

And if Serena had to play who Justine this year to win last year, Serena wouldn't have won.

No discussion, shap...Justineīs having the better comeback of the two. I can admit that. such a shame that Serenaīs been so unlucky with all those injuries since her comeback.

Dawn Marie
Jun 7th, 2005, 05:58 PM
Justine imho still doesn't have the intimadation factor over Serena. She doesn't scare the crap out of players before the match starts. Players know that Justine is powerful but not the type that when on a good day will blow one off the court. Justine has mental toughness more so than pure intimidation. Especially on other surfaces other than clay.


Serena imho still has it. Maybe not as much because of her injuries but she still has it. She can walk on the court and players will piss their fancy panties, esp. the younger kids. I think Justine's mental toughness is better than Serena's at the moment but not the pure ole intimidation factor. We still have grass and hard to deal with and Jon Wertheless is speaking too soon.

Maria's intimidation is decreasing imho.

Dawn Marie
Jun 7th, 2005, 06:01 PM
Why does Jon feel the need to diminish Serena and Maria to build up Justine??

I don't hear him stating that Roger has lost his intimidation factor ??

bandabou
Jun 7th, 2005, 06:01 PM
Here it is:
http://img134.echo.cx/img134/2713/fm5104825serenawikravit8ny.jpg

("Entourage" premiere)

Wow...those must be like 50 cms..

shap_half
Jun 7th, 2005, 06:07 PM
No discussion, shap...Justineīs having the better comeback of the two. I can admit that. such a shame that Serenaīs been so unlucky with all those injuries since her comeback.

She has been unlucky. And while I support her trying to get herself into other areas of the entertainment industry (tennis won't be forever and she has a lot of interests and support and understand her wanting to foster those interests), I believe that until she really focuses on tennis solely, she won't be properly taking care of her body.

There is no denying however how impressive her run at the Australian was.

bandabou
Jun 7th, 2005, 06:13 PM
She has been unlucky. And while I support her trying to get herself into other areas of the entertainment industry (tennis won't be forever and she has a lot of interests and support and understand her wanting to foster those interests), I believe that until she really focuses on tennis solely, she won't be properly taking care of her body.

There is no denying however how impressive her run at the Australian was.

Bottom line.

Denise4925
Jun 7th, 2005, 06:18 PM
Here it is:
http://img134.echo.cx/img134/2713/fm5104825serenawikravit8ny.jpg

("Entourage" premiere)
This pic was taken this month. :confused: You said after Rome.

Denise4925
Jun 7th, 2005, 06:22 PM
Ok good for her. I'm not talking about that. I'm responding to Bandabou's comment about Justine coming back in the heart of the clay court season which is just not true. In fact, she came back in Miami on hard and reach the same round as Serena did after Justine just recently came back from a 7 month lay off.

And if Serena had to play who Justine this year to win last year, Serena wouldn't have won.
Oh please, Serena played who was in her draw. I think they played the same people, including Elena D and Maria Sharapova to win, I don't think they were in the slouch department.

turt
Jun 7th, 2005, 06:28 PM
This pic was taken this month. :confused: You said after Rome.
It was taken on May 25th, ie two days after the beginning of Roland Garros!

Denise4925
Jun 7th, 2005, 06:40 PM
It was taken on May 25th, ie two days after the beginning of Roland Garros!
Okay even if the date you have here is correct since I was under the impression it was taken recently this month, you said after Rome and now it's two days after the beginning of RG. I'm still not understanding your point.

Her ankle may have been healed enough to wear those low 1/2 or 1 inch heels, but not well enough to slip and slide, twist and turn on the red clay of RG to risk further injury before Wimby. :confused:

deja_entendu
Jun 7th, 2005, 07:02 PM
:rolls: It's clearly killing Denise that the target of her obsessions has been usurped as the undisputed best player in the game... :haha: :lol: :haha:

turt
Jun 7th, 2005, 07:08 PM
Okay even if the date you have here is correct since I was under the impression it was taken recently this month, you said after Rome and now it's two days after the beginning of RG. I'm still not understanding your point.
Well I don't understand what you are saying :confused: Of course it's after Rome, as far as I know Rome was played before RG...

She has withdrawn from RG on May 20th because of her ankle and then 5 days later she wears high-heels shoes. Not very professional if you ask me :scratch:

Denise4925
Jun 7th, 2005, 07:09 PM
:rolls: It's clearly killing Denise that the target of her obsessions has been usurped as the undisputed best player in the game... :haha: :lol: :haha:
:retard:

le bon vivant
Jun 7th, 2005, 07:09 PM
:rolls: It's clearly killing Denise that the target of her obsessions has been usurped as the undisputed best player in the game... :haha: :lol: :haha:

She is much closer to usurping Hingis' position in the game than Serena's....

Denise4925
Jun 7th, 2005, 07:13 PM
Well I don't understand what you are saying :confused: Of course it's after Rome, as far as I know Rome was played before RG...

She has withdrawn from RG on May 20th because of her ankle and then 5 days later she wears high-heels shoes. Not very professional if you ask me :scratch:
You made it seem as if you saw her immediately after Rome, i.e. before RG at a premiere in 5 inch stilletto heels.

What is so unprofessional about reinjuring your ankle in training and five days later wearing sandals with one inch heels to a movie. It's not like she was going dancing. :lol:

I just hope I don't see Justine out doing something not rest related before Wimby, but then again that would be very unlikely.

deja_entendu
Jun 7th, 2005, 07:14 PM
She is much closer to usurping Hingis' position in the game than Serena's....

Which is something I've stated many times on this board. :wavey:

:retard: :lol:

That being said, she's much much much closer to usurping Venus' position in the game... if it hasn't happened already! :haha:

Denise4925
Jun 7th, 2005, 07:16 PM
Which is something I've stated many times on this board. :wavey:

:retard: :lol:

That being said, she's much much much closer to usurping Venus' position in the game... if it hasn't happened already! :haha:
She'd have to win Wimbledon twice for that to happen. :lol:

turt
Jun 7th, 2005, 07:17 PM
You made it seem as if you saw her immediately after Rome, i.e. before RG at a premiere in 5 inch stilletto heels.

What is so unprofessional about reinjuring your ankle in training and five days later wearing sandals with one inch heels to a movie. It's not like she was going dancing. :lol:

I just hope I don't see Justine out doing something not rest related before Wimby, but then again that would be very unlikely.
Well the shoes look more like 5 inch shoes than 1 inch shoes...

And yes, it's unlikely Justine will be out partying or doing other stuff than resting or training ;)

le bon vivant
Jun 7th, 2005, 07:20 PM
Which is something I've stated many times on this board. :wavey:

:retard: :lol:

That being said, she's much much much closer to usurping Venus' position in the game... if it hasn't happened already! :haha:

Oh well, I just thought that it beared repeating, since you've obviously made Serena THE standard for this generation of female tennis players (As I have, as well)

lol...ouch...that bolded part hurt me so bad, you just have no idea....:tape: :lol:

Denise4925
Jun 7th, 2005, 07:24 PM
Well the shoes look more like 5 inch shoes than 1 inch shoes...

And yes, it's unlikely Justine will be out partying or doing other stuff than resting or training ;)
Oh come on, before you were just trying to be misleading, now you're lying about the five inch shoes. Do you even know what five inche heels look like? :lol:

Not because Justine is so professional, but probably because she's just not the type to get invited, if you know what I mean. :shrug:

pigam
Jun 7th, 2005, 07:27 PM
Oh come on, before you were just trying to be misleading, now you're lying about the five inch shoes. Do you even know what five inche heels look like? :lol:

Not because Justine is so professional, but probably because she's just not the type to get invited, if you know what I mean. :shrug:
let's stop turning everything into Serena vs. Justine (again) shall we?

deja_entendu
Jun 7th, 2005, 07:29 PM
Oh well, I just thought that it beared repeating, since you've obviously made Serena THE standard for this generation of female tennis players (As I have, as well)

lol...ouch...that bolded part hurt me so bad, you just have no idea....:tape: :lol:

:haha: You don't even know what you're trying to argue, do you? :haha: :rolls:

Denise4925
Jun 7th, 2005, 07:30 PM
let's stop turning everything into Serena vs. Justine (again) shall we?
You're right, but I got pushed into it. ;)

le bon vivant
Jun 7th, 2005, 07:31 PM
:haha: You don't even know what you're trying to argue, do you? :haha: :rolls:

Honestly, I'm not sure, but I felt a slight and felt the need to speak on it. :boxing: :armed: :roll: Sorry, Im bored at work. :o

pigam
Jun 7th, 2005, 07:33 PM
Honestly, I'm not sure, but I felt a slight and felt the need to speak on it. :boxing: :armed: :roll: Sorry, Im bored at work. :o
allez, duty calls :p
I gotta go study too. we can do this * p. drags himself from behind his computer* ;) Work hard and make your country proud :spit: ;) :p