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View Full Version : Kim! What is Justine's success doing to her?


tennnisfannn
Jun 4th, 2005, 11:43 PM
Kim and Justine have gone almost neck and neck in the way their careers have panned out. They have been so similar in every aspect except the slam tally. Now Justine just extended that lead to 4/0 lead, I always thought kim could catch up but it is now beginning to look like a distant dream.
Can anyone read Kim's mind around here? ;) On a serious note is this likey to spur kim on or get her down with frustration.
This is a valid point, look what venus success did to serena, it forced her to get to another level and when serena overshadowed venus, venus began to take a dive.
Kim and justine are in this uniques postion coz they main stars out of their country, the russians are in sufficient numbers and don't have to be compared one on one.

manu
Jun 5th, 2005, 12:39 AM
Yes, I was thinking about posting a thread about how their comeback-paths split at this tournament, but decided not to because it would probably have caused hard feelings or fights.

However, to explain my theory in short ;) I thought their comebacks were pretty even until Roland Garros:

Kim loses in QF of first tournament back, but goes on to win 2 very big titles on her best surface in impressive style. Then she loses in the semi's of Warschau - which after all wasn't a major shock considering the surface and Kuzzie's ability on it. Then she gets injured in Berlin - so no valid loss to Patty for me.

Justine loses in QF of first tournament back, but goes on to win even 3 (2 really big) titles in equally impressive style (esp Berlin) on her best surface.

So pretty similar until 4th round of Roland Garros. Then Kim loses after having a very dominant lead over Lindsay, Justine has matchpoints against her, so both had very close matches where the line between winning and losing was very thin. I was watching Justine fall 3-5 and 15-40 behind and was stunned by how similar their paths would look once again and ready to post a thread about it. But then Justine's mental toughness saw her trough somehow (maybe also Kuzzie's mental fragileness). I somehow knew that, after that 4th round win, Justine was over her toughest opponent and would probably win the title (easily said, I know ;) but look at some prediction threads if you don't agree). So I feel that the difference in mental strength saw their paths diverge here, and it's actually the first time the gap was so big.

*JR*
Jun 5th, 2005, 12:53 AM
I expect Justine to retire in 2 or 3 years (especially if she completes the career Slam) given the toll that playing @ this level would likely take on her health again. (Including the brutal workouts that make it possible to ovacome the "size factor"). Kim can likely play @ a high level to "30 plus". Unless Flipper or whoever becomes a force, Kim will be "the Belgian", post JHH.

Shenanigans
Jun 5th, 2005, 01:08 AM
If Kim can sort her head and body out in time for the US open she has a really big chance.
She seems to love playing on hard courts and don't know if I am psychic ;) but think she is gonna win US open.

harloo
Jun 5th, 2005, 01:30 AM
I'm pretty sure Kim is finally at home getting ready to slit her wrists after watching Mary choking against Justine today.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

roarke
Jun 5th, 2005, 02:26 AM
Based on the play I saw from Mary today I wanted to slit my wrist so I can imagine Kim felt worst. That was the saddest FO finals in 17 years! Mary shoud have just forfeited the match without even getting on court. What a joke!

Sam L
Jun 5th, 2005, 02:56 AM
Unfortunately, I think Kim is finished. I don't see her been competitive with Justine again. There was a time when Kim had a winning head-to-head record against Justine (in fact, she owned Justine). But even then, I knew it was just a matter of time before Justine sorted out little problems in her game and got her head on straight. She did that in early 2003 and it's been the point of no return. Whereas Kim, she had already reached her peak by then.

tenn_ace
Jun 5th, 2005, 03:01 AM
not sure that Kim will have a longer career... It seems like her body is not holding that great either.

alexusjonesfan
Jun 5th, 2005, 04:22 AM
I expect Justine to retire in 2 or 3 years (especially if she completes the career Slam) given the toll that playing @ this level would likely take on her health again. (Including the brutal workouts that make it possible to ovacome the "size factor"). Kim can likely play @ a high level to "30 plus". Unless Flipper or whoever becomes a force, Kim will be "the Belgian", post JHH.

talk about doom and gloom :o

tennnisfannn
Jun 5th, 2005, 07:01 AM
I hope kim and amelie get to meet in a slam final one of these days, at least one would win a title then.

azmad_88
Jun 5th, 2005, 07:10 AM
kim wil win wimbledon and US Open and shock u guys :eek:

Juju #1
Jun 5th, 2005, 07:30 AM
I expect Justine to retire in 2 or 3 years (especially if she completes the career Slam) given the toll that playing @ this level would likely take on her health again. (Including the brutal workouts that make it possible to ovacome the "size factor"). Kim can likely play @ a high level to "30 plus". Unless Flipper or whoever becomes a force, Kim will be "the Belgian", post JHH.


:silly:

Fingon
Jun 5th, 2005, 07:44 AM
I expect Justine to retire in 2 or 3 years (especially if she completes the career Slam) given the toll that playing @ this level would likely take on her health again. (Including the brutal workouts that make it possible to ovacome the "size factor"). Kim can likely play @ a high level to "30 plus". Unless Flipper or whoever becomes a force, Kim will be "the Belgian", post JHH.

sorry but I really fail to understand that reasoning.

You are saying the toll that playing at this level will likely take on her, then the rest of the assumption is pretty bold.

She is extremely fit, and being in great shape will not take a toll, it's actually the other way around. Sure, overtraining can weaken her inmune system but then you are assuming she needs to overtrain to compete which is again, your opinion, not based on facts but just your perception.

As somebody pointed out, if someone's body seems to be taking a toll it's Kim.

I don't know how you can say that being small takes a toll when it's usually the opposite, yes, Justine has to work harder to get as strong as the other girls but as long as she doesn't cross the limits that's ok, being fit is healthy.

Kim on the other hand is heavier, her joints suffer more, especially with her style, she runs very fast and the splits, Justine on the other hand plays a much energy saving game (and I am not saying that one is better than the other, all I am saying is that Kim's style is more punishing to the body).

Additionally, and this is just an opinion, for Justine tennis is her life, she loves playing tennis, while I believe Kim has other interests, and that's a factor.

per4ever
Jun 5th, 2005, 08:57 AM
Kim always said she wouldn't play very long because she'd love to have a family right?

turt
Jun 5th, 2005, 09:00 AM
Kim always said she wouldn't play very long because she'd love to have a family right?
Yeah, but how would she do that right now?

saki
Jun 5th, 2005, 09:04 AM
Kim always said she wouldn't play very long because she'd love to have a family right?

Yeah, but I wonder whether that was Lleyton's influence. After all, he's the one who now has a baby on the way...

I'm not going to try and read Kim's mind but I do agree that it's very unlikely at this point that she'll catch Justine up in GS titles. We've not yet seen that she's capable of winning even one.

manu
Jun 5th, 2005, 09:28 AM
Justine will probably have a longer career than Kim.

Justine's always said that she's likely to play into her late twenties (27-29). You can tell by her interviews she really wants this, eg the long-term planning, careful scheduling, everything in function of her career, from now on never playing longer than 3 weeks in a row, etc.

Kim on the other hand has always said that she wouldn't be playing for a long time. In a recent interview, she said she wanted to retire @ 24, but now that she's lost nearly a year because of her wrist injury, she wants to keep playing until she's 25.

So I guess - barring injuries - Kim would be the one ritiring first, and as things stand now, that would be somewhere at the end of 2008.

An interesting fact about the original discussion in this thread:

Justine's coach Carlos said that he thought "Kim would do a lot better than reaching the final" when being asked if he tought Kim could have reached the final at this year's Roland Garros.
So that tells a lot about how they feel about Kim as a player and that she really isn't far behind Justine. I hope Kim herself can confirm that sometime in the future ;) .

Deuce Court
Jun 5th, 2005, 09:35 AM
The succes of Justine should encourage Kim to work even harder. Kim must know that its the work that pays off in the end. That said, I think Kim will win the US Open too and I will be glad for her when she does. She deserves that first slam more than anyone...

wateva
Jun 5th, 2005, 09:36 AM
kim needs to believe in herself. have a plan b when things dun go her way. those who watches the lindsay kim match would see that even when her forehand wasn't working, she still chose to hit the forehand. in my opinion, she should try to run around the forehand and hit some backhands. or trying adding more spin on the forehand. but she carried on with her errant hitting and inevitably lost the match. being such a good athelete, she is too good to be without a slam. and i'm pretty sure she would have given mary, justine a run for their money. she needs to sort out her brain. she won 2 tier 1s back-to-back, which means some of the mental toughness is there. i can only hope she brings it to the slams. you can do it kim! i have faith in you! :)

Mon.
Jun 5th, 2005, 10:08 AM
I think it doesn't really bother Kim much, contrary to what you all think. Sure, this final sucked, but Kim was far from being ready to win Roland Garros and she knew that and proclaimed it. It was sad about the 4th round match, but that match just showed she wasn't ready. It was too bad though, she could have flown into the final quite easily, giving her opponents that she had to play against. But it's all done now, nothing we can do about it anymore. Justine won, respect to that. It may bug Kim a little, but don't think too much of it and Kim's time will come ;) And after watching her beat one top player after another quite easily during Indian Wells and Miami, I am confident that her time WILL come.

bandabou
Jun 5th, 2005, 10:43 AM
She should´ve reached at least the final....

But I think Justine´s comeback was carefully planned so that it concurred with the start of the clay-season.

Mercury Rising
Jun 5th, 2005, 11:24 AM
I think it doesn't really bother Kim much, contrary to what you all think. Sure, this final sucked, but Kim was far from being ready to win Roland Garros and she knew that and proclaimed it. It was sad about the 4th round match, but that match just showed she wasn't ready. It was too bad though, she could have flown into the final quite easily, giving her opponents that she had to play against. But it's all done now, nothing we can do about it anymore. Justine won, respect to that. It may bug Kim a little, but don't think too much of it and Kim's time will come ;) And after watching her beat one top player after another quite easily during Indian Wells and Miami, I am confident that her time WILL come.
The thing is she should be bothered by it. If she wasn't ready, she wasn't ready in her head. She had a good shot to win this slam.

DEETHELICK
Jun 5th, 2005, 11:38 AM
I was thinking the exact same thing.

Manu summed it up in her/his post. Its the mental barriers that Justine seems to overcome and Kim just can't.

Kim plays at a very high level, but she can't seem to up it when needed the most, especially against an elite player. Justine can struggle through rounds, but can UP her level immensely when required. See the Sveta and Maria matches.

I think Kim is going to feel more pressure, simply because their careers have been so similar and she is still slamless. It will continue adding up. I don't think it will help her in a positive way.

She is talented enough, but she needs to meet similarly brittle players in the final rounds of a Slam. Bring on Amelie and Elena D. Then we'll see who has the most guts to win a slam between the three of them.

Wombat
Jun 5th, 2005, 12:58 PM
I hope kim and amelie get to meet in a slam final one of these days, at least one would win a title then.
That would be VERY NICE

*JR*
Jun 5th, 2005, 01:09 PM
sorry but I really fail to understand that reasoning.

You are saying the toll that playing at this level will likely take on her, then the rest of the assumption is pretty bold.

She is extremely fit, and being in great shape will not take a toll, it's actually the other way around. Sure, overtraining can weaken her inmune system but then you are assuming she needs to overtrain to compete which is again, your opinion, not based on facts but just your perception.

As somebody pointed out, if someone's body seems to be taking a toll it's Kim.

I don't know how you can say that being small takes a toll when it's usually the opposite, yes, Justine has to work harder to get as strong as the other girls but as long as she doesn't cross the limits that's ok, being fit is healthy.

Kim on the other hand is heavier, her joints suffer more, especially with her style, she runs very fast and the splits, Justine on the other hand plays a much energy saving game (and I am not saying that one is better than the other, all I am saying is that Kim's style is more punishing to the body).

Additionally, and this is just an opinion, for Justine tennis is her life, she loves playing tennis, while I believe Kim has other interests, and that's a factor.
If Justine becomes really sick again, she may re-evaluate her priorities. (Carlos said he was quite concerned after the Sveta match). Pat Etcheberry has to work her so hard in training to achive the results we see that she's literally puked from the strain.

Kim can lose weight, as others have. Her err, Physical Problems seem to have resulted from ova-play (even in the recent comeback, where she was originally entered in Berlin AND Rome). Maybe she'll cut back to 22-24 events per year, maximum.

jenny161185
Jun 5th, 2005, 01:46 PM
I really hope Kim doesnt retire when she's 25 she has to much talent , I think Justine will play till shes about 30 - as someone already said she usually talks about her career in the long term

Rub
Jun 5th, 2005, 02:19 PM
i think kim doesn't care! she is focused and she's gonna be successful!:yeah:

let's wait! :wavey:

TF Chipmunk
Jun 5th, 2005, 04:32 PM
Justine is not going to retire before Kim does (as long as no career-threatening injury happens, of course). Kim said a couple of years ago in an interview on TV that she wants to have a nice short and sweet career BECAUSE of the way she plays and the physical toll it takes on her body. For Justine, I doubt that would hold true because she trains so much and she loves training, so all of that stuff will never get old for her.

Pengwin
Jun 5th, 2005, 04:35 PM
As Navratilova said yesterday:

'It doesn't matter where you are compared to other players, if you're world #10, and you're the best you can possibly be, then if the other 9 players weren't alive, you'd be world #1'

Something like that, I don't have the direct quote, but it's the best attitude you can have and is how sportspeople should be.

azmad_88
Jun 5th, 2005, 04:41 PM
kim is always focus in her game
i think she just will keep going

Hagar
Jun 5th, 2005, 05:07 PM
The thing is she should be bothered by it. If she wasn't ready, she wasn't ready in her head. She had a good shot to win this slam.

Well, Kim's initial planning was different... But she injured her knee so her preparation was far from ideal.
Of course, I regret she did not make it to the final, and I think she would have given Justine a better fight than Mary but hey, I'm glad Kim could play at all...

fifiricci
Jun 5th, 2005, 05:20 PM
I'm pretty sure Kim is finally at home getting ready to slit her wrists after watching Mary choking against Justine today.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Dunno if this will disappoint you, but unless Kim wrote her diary entry from Heaven today, it would seem she is still alive and kicking and has not shuffled off her mortal coil just yet ............ ;)

tfannis
Jun 5th, 2005, 05:40 PM
Kim stated right after her win in Miami she wanted the gravel season to be over. She didn't play one good match on the dirt this year and she got injured at the worst possible time to prepare for RG. Clearly her mind wasn't set on the Gravel Slam. I'm sure she didn't expect to win it and therefor I'm sure she isn't a mental wreck right now.
Her diary sounds pretty positive, allthough her knee is not healed quite yet :(

Brαm
Jun 6th, 2005, 10:58 AM
Her diary sounds pretty positiveDoesn't it always sound positive? :o

Nicjac
Jun 6th, 2005, 02:47 PM
Here is an adequate quote:

Leo Clijsters on why his daughter regularly gets pummeled by Justine Henin-Hardenne.

"You want me to tell you why Justine is beating Kim regularly? Because her muscle mass has doubled and she now has an arm like Serena's. Technically, she was already superior. This strength is the big difference, not what's going on in her head or in Kim's head."

TF Chipmunk
Jun 6th, 2005, 03:30 PM
Here is an adequate quote:

Leo Clijsters on why his daughter regularly gets pummeled by Justine Henin-Hardenne.

"You want me to tell you why Justine is beating Kim regularly? Because her muscle mass has doubled and she now has an arm like Serena's. Technically, she was already superior. This strength is the big difference, not what's going on in her head or in Kim's head."
:rolleyes: The muscle mass merely makes them EQUAL. Before, Justine would never be able to beat someone like Serena or Kim on everyday circumstances. Yet another insinuation by Leo Clijsters :rolleyes:

Juju #1
Jun 6th, 2005, 03:50 PM
:rolleyes: The muscle mass merely makes them EQUAL. Before, Justine would never be able to beat someone like Serena or Kim on everyday circumstances. Yet another insinuation by Leo Clijsters :rolleyes:


That's from 2003...

tfannis
Jun 6th, 2005, 04:32 PM
Doesn't it always sound positive? :o

Actually no, it doesn't...I remember one which made me and many other Kim fans feel pretty bad...I believe it was somewhere after Hasselt last year. She had enough reason to be unhappy at that time ;) So glad to have her back :D

TF Chipmunk
Jun 6th, 2005, 04:38 PM
That's from 2003...
Oh I thought it was another one from him :p :wavey:

Nicjac
Jun 6th, 2005, 05:26 PM
Oh I thought it was another one from him :p :wavey:

Yeah, I should have written that it is an old quote - sorry!

Still - the differences in achievements started in 2003.