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!<blocparty>!
Apr 26th, 2005, 04:08 PM
With the general election coming up, Obatafan and I have been discussing the potential benefits of separate independent states.

What are your opinions, should Wales, Scotland, England, even Northern Ireland become completely independant of each other?

I'm not entirely convinced it would work, yet.

Discuss.

veryborednow
Apr 26th, 2005, 04:18 PM
Yes, it would be amusing to see them attempt to survive independently, might make them hate us a little bit less.

DevilishAttitude
Apr 26th, 2005, 04:19 PM
Yes. :)

I call myself English not British. It wouldn't bother me at all if Wales. Scotland & N.Ireland *Which should be part of Ireland itself instead of the UK* made there own countries.

Might get rid of our awful national anthem to :lol: :tape:

Grachka
Apr 26th, 2005, 06:37 PM
Aside from the economic arguments that necessitate independence, there are compelling social and political arguments for it too.

For a start, economic policy is formed and developed in Westminster, and in a union like the UK that is always going to be more biased (and rightly so) towards the larger, more populated country in that union. This is alright if the union has a purpose for all the people in it, which there doesn't appear to be now. There is predicted to be only a negligible financial difference (for Scotland at least) between independence and continuation in union, and those predictions can say that Scotland would be worse off or better of, depending on which economists you talk to. However, the economic power is based in and is controlled by England (and Bank of England) which necessarily has English interests at heart. If its not working for the different countries of the UK, why flog a dead horse? All the areas of the UK are capable of sustaining themselves quite well, so its a non-issue.

The social and political issues are interesting. There was/is quite a bit of resentment to what is perceived as England ignoring our interests which I think would be quite easily wiped with a divorce. The problem that the independence movement has now is that many of the originally self-made industries and media are now owned by the inevitably SNP-hostile or indifferent English or foreign companies, so the likelihood of the levers of power falling into the main independence party's hands are slim at best.

The basis and logic for the separation is there, as is the economic sense and potential, but at the moment the self-belief is not and neither is the political will. Until we have that, it will ultimately stagnate.

Martian Willow
Apr 26th, 2005, 06:40 PM
I think it would be pointless and quite silly but I don't care that much.

creep
Apr 26th, 2005, 06:42 PM
Just get rid of England. I cannot stand those pompous arrogant bastards. Especially that shitehawk up at Buck house!

Pdm1987
Apr 26th, 2005, 06:42 PM
I think the UK should divorce each other :) We all know that England is the far superior nation of the United Kingdom, and I'm sure we'd be able to cope fine on our own. The Scots & The Welsh would soon want to come back when they begin to struggle as an independant country!

veryborednow
Apr 26th, 2005, 06:48 PM
However, the economic power is based in and is controlled by England (and Bank of England) which necessarily has English interests at heart. If its not working for the different countries of the UK, why flog a dead horse? All the areas of the UK are capable of sustaining themselves quite well, so its a non-issue.

Scotland does get more back in government spending than it gives in taxes than any part of England.

Wales could not survive independently.

NI would combust.

Pdm1987
Apr 26th, 2005, 06:51 PM
If we want to save our marriage we have to stop saying things like that ;)

I didn't know our marriage was in crisis :eek: I'll keep quiet from now on ;)

creep
Apr 26th, 2005, 06:51 PM
Just think how many innocent lives would not have been lost if all the other countries didnít have to fight Englandís war for her in Iraq.

Pdm1987
Apr 26th, 2005, 06:53 PM
I think we need Scotland and Wales to keep the Labour government in power. Also we wouldn't have the likes of Tony Blair and Elena Baltacha without Scotland :worship:

Elena lives in Enfield, so Scotland does nothing for her.

Pdm1987
Apr 26th, 2005, 06:54 PM
also, if Elena had always been in England, she wouldn't ever have had such a silly accent :p

Avid Merrion
Apr 26th, 2005, 06:55 PM
We all know that England is the far superior nation of the United Kingdom
:lol: and the English wonder why we have a problem with them..... :p

Grachka
Apr 26th, 2005, 06:55 PM
Scotland does get more back in government spending than it gives in taxes than any part of England.

Wales could not survive independently.

NI would combust.
1) Again, it depends on which economists you ask, and the Barnett Formula for working out which area gets what, is now widely discredited. Besides, the economic direction of the country would be determined in the years after independence, so how much money is received now is of little relevance.
2) It could survive quite fine. It's not a barren land of permafrost and tumbleweed.
3) Well, you might have a point there ;)

veryborednow
Apr 26th, 2005, 06:59 PM
1) Again, it depends on which economists you ask, and the Barnett Formula for working out which area gets what, is now widely discredited. Besides, the economic direction of the country would be determined in the years after independence, so how much money is received now is of little relevance.
2) It could survive quite fine. It's not a barren land of permafrost and tumbleweed.
3) Well, you might have a point there ;)
I'm willing to conceed on point 1, because my knowledge does not go beyond a-level a few years ago. But Wales would not be self sufficient if they wanted to continue living in the same way. I suppose the EU could help them out for a while until they could, but then again this is the institution who left Wales off their map.

Grachka
Apr 26th, 2005, 06:59 PM
also, if Elena had always been in England, she wouldn't ever have had such a silly accent :p
Not half as silly as it sounds now, having lived in Enfield for a bit too long :p Hybrid accents are never a good idea!

Pdm1987
Apr 26th, 2005, 07:04 PM
Not half as silly as it sounds now, having lived in Enfield for a bit too long :p Hybrid accents are never a good idea!

at least now you can understand it, before it sounded terrible, poor girl

creep
Apr 26th, 2005, 07:05 PM
Tony Blair is SCOTTISH :worship:

Heís only a token Scot. He may have been born in Edinburgh, but he was reared in Durham.

And you can forward those sentiment to Black Watch. Think he was going to send some English outfit to central Baghdad? Not on your nelly!

Bezz
Apr 26th, 2005, 07:06 PM
Tony Blair is SCOTTISH :worship:

He may have been born there but he spent most of his childhood in England :p There are no reminants of his scottish roots left ;)

I agree we should split apart, it might stop the scots and welsh blaming the english for all thier problems :mad: :p ;) . It would be interesting to see if the scots have the guts to vote for independance, they moan about being run by westminster but its very comfortable position for them to be in. If the SNP really want an independant scotland they should organise the vote just after a England -Scotland match, they are guaranteed to win :cool:

Avid Merrion
Apr 26th, 2005, 07:07 PM
He’s only a token Scot. He may have been born in Edinburgh, but he was reared in Durham.

And you can forward those sentiment to Black Watch. Think he was going to send some English outfit to central Baghdad? Not on your nelly!
amen! :worship:

veryborednow
Apr 26th, 2005, 07:07 PM
Heís only a token Scot. He may have been born in Edinburgh, but he was reared in Durham.

Well , then he's a scummy northerner. Which isn't much better ;)

Bezz
Apr 26th, 2005, 07:15 PM
Well , then he's a scummy northerner. Which isn't much better ;)

I resent that comment :p , yu scummy southerner! ;)

veryborednow
Apr 26th, 2005, 07:24 PM
I resent that comment :p , yu scummy southerner! ;)
I'm trying to offend everyone contributing to the thread ;) Just need some Londoners and people from East Anglia and the West Country then my job is done.

!<blocparty>!
Apr 26th, 2005, 07:34 PM
I think Wales would manage fine on it's own. At the minute the NHS is a mess basically, and there is a shortage of GP's and Dentists. In Pembrokeshire there have been peple queing for miles just to get on the books with a new surgery.

Unemployment rates are some of the worst in the UK and we have a significantly lower average income than England.

I'm sure these problems would be better dealt with from a more localised standpoint rather than from Westminster, who are using us as guinea pigs for various schemes.

veryborednow
Apr 26th, 2005, 07:40 PM
You think Wales has the localized infrastructure to run itself independently? And well? Really?

You would have to pay more taxes to get the NHS better, to pay for public sector workers now working solely for a Welsh government, an attractive enough economy to entice people to live there, (Scotland are having major problems with that), a better transport infrastructure, something that will encourage businesses to stay in Wales when the taxes go up, and not bugger off to Eastern Europe/Asia... It's not straightforward.

jimbo mack
Apr 26th, 2005, 07:51 PM
At the minute the NHS is a mess basically, and there is a shortage of GP's and Dentists.

and us nurses! we need more nurses! british ones preferably

!<blocparty>!
Apr 26th, 2005, 07:54 PM
You think Wales has the localized infrastructure to run itself independently? And well? Really?

You would have to pay more taxes to get the NHS better, to pay for public sector workers now working solely for a Welsh government, an attractive enough economy to entice people to live there, (Scotland are having major problems with that), a better transport infrastructure, something that will encourage businesses to stay in Wales when the taxes go up, and not bugger off to Eastern Europe/Asia... It's not straightforward.

The answers don't always lie with paying more taxes. The way things are run could be much better.

At the minute there isn't exactly much to entice people to live here. Where I live in Mid Wales, the largest factory in my local town has closed, along with numerous other large employers in surrounding areas. All of them are buggering off to Asia.

Now, with Public transport. There isnt really much, at all. Unless you have a car around here you're fucked. The railways have all closed down and there are buses running along the A470 every 2 hours, Monday to Saturday 9-6. I've missed the bus 4 out of 5 times due to them not running on time. I have to pay full price and they're almost always empty. A more reliable service, cheaper faires for Students would give them more money surely. It cant be good having buses running with no passengers for most of the time? Just little things like that.

creep
Apr 26th, 2005, 08:02 PM
amen! :worship:


Then again Scotland has nearly 70% of Europe's crucial oil reserves. They produce more, save more and export more than those south of the border, and yet Scots are told that they live off London taxes. For over twenty years Westminster governments have stolen Scottish oil revenues. And since 1979 £100,000 million in oil revenue has been squandered by the anti-Scottish/Welsh/N.Irish Tory/Labour Governments. Thatís £20,000 for every man, woman and child in Scotland alone. And if it's nor Scottish oil, it's our water, our gas, our coal reserves. Scottish taxpayers are paying £10 more in tax each week than people south of the border. You name it, Westminster robbed Scotland. :)

creep
Apr 26th, 2005, 08:08 PM
I guess it would be good for our Eurovision prospects ;)

lol That's hilarious, but so very true. Cause the whole of Europe also hates England.:)

Pdm1987
Apr 26th, 2005, 08:09 PM
Then again Scotland has nearly 70% of Europe's crucial oil reserves. They produce more, save more and export more than those south of the border, and yet Scots are told that they live off London taxes. For over twenty years Westminster governments have stolen Scottish oil revenues. And since 1979 £100,000 million in oil revenue has been squandered by the anti-Scottish/Welsh/N.Irish Tory/Labour Governments. Thatís £20,000 for every man, woman and child in Scotland alone. And if it's nor Scottish oil, it's our water, our gas, our coal reserves. Scottish taxpayers are paying £10 more in tax each week than people south of the border. You name it, Westminster robbed Scotland. :)

shame :p

!<blocparty>!
Apr 26th, 2005, 08:12 PM
We're sooooooooooooooooo sorry :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :p

Do you plan on saying anything constructive in this thread?

veryborednow
Apr 26th, 2005, 08:19 PM
The Danish and Italians usually give us good points in the Eurovision - they don't hate us. Norway and Iceland would appreciated our stance with regards to the EU.... Half of Malta likes us...

And just over 50% of NI don't hate us.

Is this Scottish Oil, or North Sea oil?

creep
Apr 26th, 2005, 08:21 PM
I guess it would be good for our Eurovision prospects ;)

Hold on!!! This is a crafty ploy.
If we have separate entries then thereís a possibility that either Scotland/Wales/Northern Ireland would have to host the competition should any win. Now what would the cost be? Because England would have no chance, so itís a ploy by England to cost the Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish economies more money.;)

creep
Apr 26th, 2005, 08:27 PM
The Danish and Italians usually give us good points in the Eurovision - they don't hate us. Norway and Iceland would appreciated our stance with regards to the EU.... Half of Malta likes us...

And just over 50% of NI don't hate us.

Is this Scottish Oil, or North Sea oil?


Britain's offshore oil fields are in Scottish waters, and Aberdeen has evolved into head-quarters of the new oil industry. Large refineries have been established at Grangemouth and Dundee.:)

And thatís a foolish misconception that just over 50% of N.I doesnít hate you (English)

I do not hate you either.:)

Grachka
Apr 26th, 2005, 08:31 PM
The Danish and Italians usually give us good points in the Eurovision - they don't hate us. Norway and Iceland would appreciated our stance with regards to the EU.... Half of Malta likes us...

And just over 50% of NI don't hate us.

Is this Scottish Oil, or North Sea oil?
Both.

creep
Apr 26th, 2005, 08:33 PM
Well I'm off for now. I won't be here tomorrow evening. I'm just going to stay at home and have a big wank instead!:)

Pdm1987
Apr 26th, 2005, 08:44 PM
Well I'm off for now. I won't be here tomorrow evening. I'm just going to stay at home and have a big wank instead!:)

what a thing to say on a respectable tennis message board! you should be truly ashamed of yourself

:p

SelesFan70
Apr 26th, 2005, 08:48 PM
Just give us (America) the British Virgin Islands and Bermuda no matter what happens! :wavey:

Bezz
Apr 26th, 2005, 08:50 PM
lol That's hilarious, but so very true. Cause the whole of Europe also hates England.:)

The whole of Europe do not hate us, just tony blair over Iraq :p .

tennislover
Apr 26th, 2005, 09:30 PM
that's not enough....
how about to deportate the English gentlemen (except Tony blair, ti_online, henmanhill and Mike T :worship: :lol: ) into a remote island in the middle of Pacific Ocean? :lol: :lol: :lol: ;)

tennislover
Apr 26th, 2005, 09:31 PM
The whole of Europe do not hate us, just tony blair over Iraq :p .
I LOVE TONY: HE IS GREAT! :worship:
EUROPE LOVES HIM!

!<blocparty>!
Apr 26th, 2005, 09:37 PM
The whole of Europe do not hate us, just tony blair over Iraq :p .

Yes, and some people still agree with it :scared: :p



that's not enough....
how about to deportate the English gentlemen (except Tony blair ) into a remote island in the middle of Pacific Ocean?

k. :unsure:

Halardfan
Apr 27th, 2005, 09:01 AM
If I were a Scot Id probably lean towards the SNP, but since Im not...

I don't think there is really an appetite for true independance in any of the countries concerned, certainly none of the Pro-independance parties are any way near having majoirty support, if that changes then they wil have independance. Certainly a Tory government would make it more likely.

Again its absoultely vital that if it does occur, then it do so from in a positive position, on being Pro-Scottish not Anti-English...while I understand some of the anti-English sentiment that exists, it wouldn't be healthy to found a new Scotland on it.

I think Braveheart and Mel Gibson have a lot to answer for in that regard! ;)

Northern Ireland is a special case...but those who would paint it neatly as a English v Irish conflict, overlook the fact that a large chunk of the original protestant settlers in Ireland, came from...Scotland! Add to that the fact the one place on the mainland in which the Irish Catholic/Protestant feuds of the past still hold great sway is not England but in Glasgow.

The English have a mixed history like anyone else, things have happened we should be ashamed of, things have happened we should be proud of. I don't think we are better or worse than anyone else, better or worse than Scotland.

rightous
Apr 27th, 2005, 09:05 AM
Agh you got to love my great conunty (Northern Ireland). There was some talk about an independent state, if only u would have left us alone, we would still we backward, lack basic literacy and speak a foreign language;)

Sam L
Apr 27th, 2005, 09:18 AM
The English lose Scotland and Wales and instead should try and gain a foothold in Europe again. How about fighting for Normandy and/or Aquitaine? :lol:

Dava
Apr 27th, 2005, 09:33 AM
No simply cos Scotland has the Oil (making them the only ones who could probably survive fiancially), Wales needs the rest cos all their industries have turned to shit, and they could not afford to exist without England, who concequently benefit from their farming, and the only way the UK could make a bigger fuck-up of Northern Ireland is by divorcing it The Channel Islands and the would only go back to France (remember people, they are part of the British Islands to), and does anyone really care about the Isle Of Mann???

controlfreak
Apr 27th, 2005, 11:06 AM
Yes they should split up, then Scotland could join the euro and I could go and live there and prosper amidst the permafrost and tumbleweeds :)

tennislover
Apr 27th, 2005, 01:16 PM
The English lose Scotland and Wales and instead should try and gain a foothold in Europe again. How about fighting for Normandy and/or Aquitaine? :lol:

wise words.....:lol:

!<blocparty>!
Apr 27th, 2005, 06:42 PM
No simply cos Scotland has the Oil (making them the only ones who could probably survive fiancially), Wales needs the rest cos all their industries have turned to shit, and they could not afford to exist without England, who concequently benefit from their farming, and the only way the UK could make a bigger fuck-up of Northern Ireland is by divorcing it The Channel Islands and the would only go back to France (remember people, they are part of the British Islands to), and does anyone really care about the Isle Of Mann???


Our industries have turned to shit for a reason. Wales, and Scotland would benefit from cutting corportion tax for starters. Where there are people, new companies would want to set up, with the right incentives.

What do we have that England doesn't? With the right people in charge, I don't see why we couldnt survive on our own, eventually.

Andy T
Apr 27th, 2005, 07:05 PM
If Scotland goes, then not only the UK but the union of Great Britain, i.e. England + Scotland, ceases to exist. Wales was conquered by England and is legally part of England. With no Great Britain, where does that leave Northern Ireland? Northern Ireland would then need to decide of it wants a link with England, with Scotland, with Eire or total independence.....

AleOrtu
Apr 27th, 2005, 08:20 PM
What about all the Islands and other places where Great Britain has power too?
Argentina would love to talk about the soberany of the Islas Malvinas (Falkland Islands) with North Ireland than with Britain!

Bezz
Apr 28th, 2005, 02:16 PM
What about all the Islands and other places where Great Britain has power too?
Argentina would love to talk about the soberany of the Islas Malvinas (Falkland Islands) with North Ireland than with Britain!

I'm sure they would :lol: .

Pretty soon most of Britains colonies will have thier independance. Its on the cards for many countries today :cool: .