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View Full Version : Monica d Steffi French 92 - best final ever?


SM
Apr 20th, 2005, 07:11 AM
I was watching it yesterday for the first time in eons at radas place (both big monica fans) and we were incredulous at how well they played. I had not seen it in ages.

The angles, power and consistency of the groundies from both players were incredible. Especially Monica's angles ;) Best slam final ever? :eek:

SM
Apr 20th, 2005, 07:15 AM
the only thing i could critique about the tennis was the fashion sense!!!!!!! OMG Monica with the white scrunchie and purple (i think) headband and the retro tennis gear looked worse than dare i say serenas dress sense :o

vancouverite
Apr 20th, 2005, 09:19 AM
Well, it's right up there with the very best!:)

Evert-Navratilova '85 was a breathtaking match, as was Graf-Navratilova '87, Graf-Hingis '99, and Capriati-Clijsters '01...

I'd probably give Graf-Seles '92 the overall edge because of the incredibly close finish and the aggressive attitude of both players to the very end, with Evert-Navratilova '85 just a half-notch behind it.

Graf-Hingis '99 was a spectacular match, but the third set didn't offer the same level from both players, so it's at a slightly lower level in my book (but what drama!;) ).

Steffica Greles
Apr 20th, 2005, 11:37 AM
NO!!!

But nearly. Watch the Australian Open final of the following year. Again, Graf vs Seles.

Graf was in much better form. She was taking her backhand earlier, producing a cutting slice that reduced Seles' angles (or would have done had Monica not responded with better angles than she'd ever hit before). Graf was pounding Seles' corners with her forehand, and hitting the ball more cleanly than at Roland Garros. She was also moving as gracefully as ever.

After a close first set when both players had blasted winners from all over the court, Seles was forced to produce her best form. She served aces, serve-volleyed, hit drive volleys, her returns were like bullets, and her intensity was like that of a pit bull.

The 3rd set was close to begin with, and Graf had her chances with a breakpoint. But yet again, Seles' fearlessness prevailed - she served an ace. From then on, as the commentator said, Seles was "steaming" to victory.

She ended with a return winner from Graf's second serve and raised her arms. 4-6 6-3 6-2 to Seles. Nobody was in any doubt at that stage who was the better player. And it was just 3 months before the course of history was to change.

Steffica Greles
Apr 20th, 2005, 11:51 AM
Personally, the best slam finals I've seen are these...

Graf vs Seles 1992 French Open final 6-2 3-6 10-8 to Seles

Graf vs Seles 1993 Australian Open final 4-6 6-3 6-2 to Seles

Graf vs Sanchez-Vicario 1996 French Open final 6-3 6-7 10-8 to Graf.

Graf vs Hingis 1999 French Open final (forget the score but Graf won in 3)

...it's just coincidence that Graf features in all of them, LOL. I can think of many great matches where Graf doesn't feature, but not finals. And there haven't been many great finals in recent years.

tinkerbell
Apr 20th, 2005, 12:23 PM
as it was the match that got me interested in tennis i would have to say yes even though i didn't like the result:)

SM
Apr 20th, 2005, 01:04 PM
actually we did just watch aus open final 93 steffica :) its hard to say i loved em both!!!

SM
Apr 20th, 2005, 01:06 PM
that graf def hingis 99 french was the most entertaining but i dont know about in terms of quality ;). i actually fell asleep during that match cos we get very late coverage in aus but i did tape it...still it wouldve been much better *live*

mishar
Apr 20th, 2005, 01:37 PM
the ao 93 match was higher quality. I wouldn't say either monica or steffi played their best in 92.. but it was a match of incredible drama. So much seemed to be at stake, both players fought fantastically.. it is my favorite gs final for sure.

AlwaysGraf
Apr 20th, 2005, 02:22 PM
As a Graf fan, I was disappointed BY the FO 92 and AO 93. The two best players in the world at the time. I'm not gonna say Graf was the best. I'm not gonna say Seles is the best. People shouldn't say "Oh Seles was gonna dominate had she not been stabbed". People shouldn't say "Oh Graf was gonna dominate anyway despite the stabbing." Look at the results of those two finals, and the 92 W final. Can you honestly say either was gonna stand alone as the undisputed number one in the world. I do believe that Steffi would have gotten her act together and would have made more grand slam finals which is what she didn't do during the period Seles was winning hers.
But overall, among all our Seles/Graf debates, we fail to acknowledge the rivalry they had and its potential greatness! God, can you imagine the many more grand slam finals we would have been treated to by these two if it hadn't been for the stabbing! We as fans shouldn't slate each others favourite, but applaud them for bringing out magical tennis in each other :)

Steffica Greles
Apr 20th, 2005, 05:38 PM
AlwaysGraf: Couldn't agree more...

I tend to think Seles would have held a 60-40 edge on clay, a 55-45 edge on hard courts, and 55-45 on carpet....but Graf was 60-40 on grass. But if they'd played 10 times, that divides the matches quite evenly.

Graf would have been in more finals - I agree. She'd have got her act together. That would have been a major test for Seles, with Graf as a regular rival. And I think they'd have split them pretty much evenly, although I do think Seles was marginally a better player. Sanchez-Vicario would still have won 2 slams, in my opinion.

But the saddest thing is that we were denied the spectacle.

DA FOREHAND
Apr 20th, 2005, 05:41 PM
AlwaysGraf: Couldn't agree more...

I tend to think Seles would have held a 60-40 edge on clay, a 55-45 edge on hard courts, and 55-45 on carpet....but Graf was 60-40 on grass. But if they'd played 10 times, that divides the matches quite evenly.

Graf would have been in more finals - I agree. She'd have got her act together. That would have been a major test for Seles, with Graf as a regular rival. And I think they'd have split them pretty much evenly, although I do think Seles was marginally a better player. Sanchez-Vicario would still have won 2 slams, in my opinion.

But the saddest thing is that we were denied the spectacle.


Seles had an edge on Graf on hardcourts? Based on what? How many times has Monica beaten Steffi on a hardcourt? Before you answer A.O. is not a hardcourt. Indoor carpet was one of Steffi's strongest surfaces, she would def. have the edge there.

On clay Monica didn't enjoy a 60-40 advantage over GRAF.

Kart
Apr 20th, 2005, 06:07 PM
I've seen the French open 1992 and I can't say I thought it was the most amazing match I'd ever seen but it's probably because I knew the result beforehand.

I think there's a lot to lose out from not watching a match live, the suspense is gone.

SelesFan70
Apr 20th, 2005, 06:36 PM
Well, it's right up there with the very best!:)

Evert-Navratilova '85 was a breathtaking match, as was Graf-Navratilova '87, Graf-Hingis '99, and Capriati-Clijsters '01...

I'd probably give Graf-Seles '92 the overall edge because of the incredibly close finish and the aggressive attitude of both players to the very end, with Evert-Navratilova '85 just a half-notch behind it.

Graf-Hingis '99 was a spectacular match, but the third set didn't offer the same level from both players, so it's at a slightly lower level in my book (but what drama!;) ).

I'd give Chrissie/Martina the edge based on that one game where Evert was down 0-40, but she won that game by coming to the net..twice while Martina was approaching, too! :eek: Evert refused to look at Martina in that match, which was a brilliant idea because Martina was an emotional player and would glare or smile or rant at crucial times. It was like Heaven when Evert passed Martina down the line with her backhand to take that match. :worship:

fammmmedspin
Apr 20th, 2005, 06:41 PM
Great match but it kinda ended in a low key way - petered out rather than climaxed in the last couple of games.

tennislover
Apr 20th, 2005, 07:04 PM
i don't know if it's the best ever....
surely that final score made my century.....:cool:

R&J
Apr 20th, 2005, 07:16 PM
Dont know if it is the best ever (that would just be an opinion not a fact), but it was a damn good final! Even up to this day (13 years later), it is still remembered as one of the great matches.

http://www.monicaselessite.com/photogalleries/photogallery22/PG22_11.jpg

creep
Apr 20th, 2005, 07:22 PM
Fanbloodytastic!!! Not because of the outcome, I'm very impartial whenever it came to Monica and Steffi matches.

Btw....Am I the only one who finds Monica extremely cute? :)

mishar
Apr 20th, 2005, 07:30 PM
But overall, among all our Seles/Graf debates, we fail to acknowledge the rivalry they had and its potential greatness! God, can you imagine the many more grand slam finals we would have been treated to by these two if it hadn't been for the stabbing! We as fans shouldn't slate each others favourite, but applaud them for bringing out magical tennis in each other :)


I have a rule of not commenting on Monica-Steffi threads, but this was a wise comment and I agree. We really lost out on what could have the greatest of tennis rivalries. They were both such great competitors!

Watching the FO 92 final, I always think, Steffi should really have won, she was in many ways the better player that day, certainly fitter, the better athlete. But I think Monica was mentally tougher (that day, obviously not a few weeks later in London). And I think that was the advantage Monica had. In the 93 Ao, Steffi went away a little in the third set, almost as if giving in to Monica's superior desire.

They surely would have had a lot of great close gs finals.

faboozadoo15
Apr 20th, 2005, 08:20 PM
it's my favorite grandslam fina, for sure.
but yes, the australian open final in 1993 is the highest quality i've ever seen. some of those rallies were just amazing. it was an incredible display from seles in thelast 2 sets after having played poorly in the first. in this match, monica at times had points anyway she wanted them. she could hit the quick winner and win short points without making many errors, and it was certainly proof that she was far superior to graf in rallying capabilities. she also served better than graf which is something she had never come close to doing in their previous matches.

Calimero377
Apr 20th, 2005, 08:32 PM
AlwaysGraf: Couldn't agree more...

I tend to think Seles would have held a 60-40 edge on clay, a 55-45 edge on hard courts, and 55-45 on carpet....but Graf was 60-40 on grass. But if they'd played 10 times, that divides the matches quite evenly. ...


clay 50-50
ReboundAce (AO) 60-40 in Seles' favour
hard court 60-40 in Graf's favour
indoor (carpet) 65-35 in Graf's favour
grass 85-15 in Graf's favour

Graf was 10-5 H2H against Seles, 5-2 when Seles was #1 ...

Calimero377
Apr 20th, 2005, 08:34 PM
i don't know if it's the best ever....
surely that final score made my century.....:cool:


I prefer Graf-Navi Wimbledon 88 & 89 finals. The two greatest-ever at their favourite slam in peak prime form.

R&J
Apr 20th, 2005, 08:37 PM
clay 50-50
ReboundAce (AO) 60-40 in Seles' favour
hard court 60-40 in Graf's favour
indoor (carpet) 65-35 in Graf's favour
grass 85-15 in Graf's favour

Graf was 10-5 H2H against Seles, 5-2 when Seles was #1 ...

Up until that point, how many of those wins of Graf over Seles (5-2) were during 1989 during Monica's first PRO year on the tour (just wondering)?

Calimero377
Apr 20th, 2005, 08:37 PM
Dont know if it is the best ever (that would just be an opinion not a fact), but it was a damn good final! Even up to this day (13 years later), it is still remembered as one of the great matches.

http://www.monicaselessite.com/photogalleries/photogallery22/PG22_11.jpg


I agree.
AO 93 was damn good as well.
Both finals are Seles' two best matches ever without a doubt.
And they are among Graf's best 50 matches ever (maybe 40 ...?).

Calimero377
Apr 20th, 2005, 08:39 PM
Fanbloodytastic!!! Not because of the outcome, I'm very impartial whenever it came to Monica and Steffi matches.

Btw....Am I the only one who finds Monica extremely cute? :)


"Extremely" cute only if she hadn't screamed all the time when playing tennis.
So she is only "rather" cute .... :kiss:

Calimero377
Apr 20th, 2005, 08:43 PM
Up until that point, how many of those wins of Graf over Seles (5-2) were during 1989 during Monica's first PRO year on the tour (just wondering)?


Seles' first year on the pro tour was 1988 (when Graf won the Golden Grand Slam).

If you had read my post more diligently you would have noticed that "5-2" is the H2H "when Seles was #1".
That means that Graf won 5 of 7 matches when Seles was ranked #1 in the WTA rankings. Did you get it now ... ?

R&J
Apr 20th, 2005, 09:00 PM
Seles' first year on the pro tour was 1988 (when Graf won the Golden Grand Slam).

If you had read my post more diligently you would have noticed that "5-2" is the H2H "when Seles was #1".
That means that Graf won 5 of 7 matches when Seles was ranked #1 in the WTA rankings. Did you get it now ... ?

Monica's first year as a pro player was 1989 :wavey: she played Graf 3 times in that year and lost all 3 of them (Not surprising since she just started playing). So Steffi racked up those 3 wins during Monica's First year as a professional tennis player.

R&J
Apr 20th, 2005, 09:11 PM
Steffi did have an edge in the head to head before the stabbing, but Monica was catching up. Before the stabbing it looked like this.....

1989 Roland Garros: Semifinal 6-3, 3-6, 6-3 Steffi Graf
1989 Wimbledon: 4th round 6-0, 6-1 Steffi Graf
1989 Brighton International (Brighton): Final 7-5, 6-4 Steffi Graf
1990 Lufthansa Cup (Berlin): Final 6-4, 6-3 Monica Seles
1990 Roland Garros: Final 7-6, 6-4 Monica Seles
1991 Women's Hardcourt Champs (San Antonio): Final 6-4, 6-3 Steffi Graf
1991 Citizen Cup (Hambourg): Final 7-5, 6-7(4), 6-3 Steffi Graf
1992 Roland Garros (Paris): Final 6-2, 3-6, 10-8 Monica Seles
1992 Wimbledon: Final 6-2, 6-1 Steffi Graf
1993 Australian Open: Final 4-6, 6-3, 6-2 Monica Seles

In bold is when Monica was #1 - So Graf won 3 matches and Monica won 2.

ezekiel
Apr 20th, 2005, 09:13 PM
I was watching it yesterday for the first time in eons at radas place (both big monica fans) and we were incredulous at how well they played. I had not seen it in ages.

The angles, power and consistency of the groundies from both players were incredible. Especially Monica's angles ;) Best slam final ever? :eek:

Yes, I remember it vividly. Monica was out of her world while dealing with a tough situation in her homeland. There is no doubt she was going to dominate if not stopped by some outside force which unfortunatelly happened to be true later that year

R&J
Apr 20th, 2005, 09:15 PM
Here is a nice picture of Monica during the 92 French Open.

http://www.monicaselessite.com/photogalleries/photogallery22/PG22_09.jpg

LeRoy.
Apr 20th, 2005, 09:18 PM
Gunter also counts the wins Steffi had over Monica after she came back and was co-ranked # 1. :)

Calimero377
Apr 20th, 2005, 09:18 PM
Steffi did have an edge in the head to head before the stabbing, but Monica was catching up. Before the stabbing it looked like this.....

1989 Roland Garros: Semifinal 6-3, 3-6, 6-3 Steffi Graf
1989 Wimbledon: 4th round 6-0, 6-1 Steffi Graf
1989 Brighton International (Brighton): Final 7-5, 6-4 Steffi Graf
1990 Lufthansa Cup (Berlin): Final 6-4, 6-3 Monica Seles
1990 Roland Garros: Final 7-6, 6-4 Monica Seles
1991 Women's Hardcourt Champs (San Antonio): Final 6-4, 6-3 Steffi Graf
1991 Citizen Cup (Hambourg): Final 7-5, 6-7(4), 6-3 Steffi Graf
1992 Roland Garros (Paris): Final 6-2, 3-6, 10-8 Monica Seles
1992 Wimbledon: Final 6-2, 6-1 Steffi Graf
1993 Australian Open: Final 4-6, 6-3, 6-2 Monica Seles

In bold is when Monica was #1 - So Graf won 3 matches and Monica won 2.

Seles was co-#1 at USO 95 & 96.
Selesians ALWAYS count those weeks as co-#1.
And we must not forget that Seles played her best USOs ever in 95 & 96.

LeRoy.
Apr 20th, 2005, 09:21 PM
For me during her peak i.e. 90-93 Monica lead Steffi 4-3.:) . 1993 could have very well been the year Monica would have won THE GRAND SLAM had it not been for the poster above :sad:

KV
Apr 20th, 2005, 09:22 PM
I prefer Graf-Navi Wimbledon 88 & 89 finals. The two greatest-ever at their favourite slam in peak prime form.Navri her best years were 83 and 84. She's better than when she's above the age of 30 as in 88 & 89. Anyway best ever match I'd go for Navri vs. Mandlikova. You could see all the shots in the game. Don't forget their volleying/returning. One can't ask for more variety.

LUIS9
Apr 20th, 2005, 09:26 PM
As a Graf fan, I was disappointed BY the FO 92 and AO 93. The two best players in the world at the time. I'm not gonna say Graf was the best. I'm not gonna say Seles is the best. People shouldn't say "Oh Seles was gonna dominate had she not been stabbed". People shouldn't say "Oh Graf was gonna dominate anyway despite the stabbing." Look at the results of those two finals, and the 92 W final. Can you honestly say either was gonna stand alone as the undisputed number one in the world. I do believe that Steffi would have gotten her act together and would have made more grand slam finals which is what she didn't do during the period Seles was winning hers.
But overall, among all our Seles/Graf debates, we fail to acknowledge the rivalry they had and its potential greatness! God, can you imagine the many more grand slam finals we would have been treated to by these two if it hadn't been for the stabbing! We as fans shouldn't slate each others favourite, but applaud them for bringing out magical tennis in each other :)

Very well said!:worship:

Calimero377
Apr 20th, 2005, 09:39 PM
For me during her peak i.e. 90-93 Monica lead Steffi 4-3.:) . 1993 could have very well been the year Monica would have won THE GRAND SLAM had it not been for the poster above :sad:

Monica's peak includes 1990?

OK, let's have a look at those years by comparing Graf and Seles (until April 25th, 1993):

win/loss record:
Graf 232-23, Seles 213-18

weeks as #1:
Graf 67, Seles 107

tournaments won:
Graf 27, Seles 31

And no-one suggests that Graf was at her peak in 90-April93 ..... :lol:

R&J
Apr 20th, 2005, 09:41 PM
And we must not forget that Seles played her best USOs ever in 95 & 96.

Says "you" - thats an opinion not a fact.

R&J
Apr 20th, 2005, 09:44 PM
Monica's peak includes 1990?

OK, let's have a look at those years by comparing Graf and Seles (until April 25th, 1993):

win/loss record:
Graf 232-23, Seles 213-18

weeks as #1:
Graf 67, Seles 107

tournaments won:
Graf 27, Seles 31

And no-one suggests that Graf was at her peak in 90-April93 ..... :lol:

No-one? You speak for everyone? :rolleyes:

Calimero377
Apr 20th, 2005, 09:44 PM
Navri her best years were 83 and 84. She's better than when she's above the age of 30 as in 88 & 89. Anyway best ever match I'd go for Navri vs. Mandlikova. You could see all the shots in the game. Don't forget their volleying/returning. One can't ask for more variety.


We must not forget that Navi had a 67-3 win/loss streak from spring 89 until winter 90. Her 3 losses ALL came against peak Steffi Graf.
So it is safe to say that WITHOUT Graf Navi would have had a 70-match winning streak. Navi herself is the only player ever in the open era who had a longer streak .... :worship:

Calimero377
Apr 20th, 2005, 09:49 PM
Says "you" - thats an opinion not a fact.


Simply take her results in the first 6 matches of USOs 91, 92, 95, 96 (without finals).
Seles lost LESS games in 95 & 96 than in 91 & 92.
Fact.

She never played a top 4 player at USO in 91 & 92.
In 95 & 96 she lost to #1, Miss Stefanie Graf.
Fact.

It's really no rocket science ....

Calimero377
Apr 20th, 2005, 09:51 PM
No-one? You speak for everyone? :rolleyes:


I rephrase it:
No sane person says that Graf was at her peak in 90-April93.

R&J
Apr 20th, 2005, 09:51 PM
Simply take her results in the first 6 matches of USOs 91, 92, 95, 96 (without finals).
Seles lost LESS games in 95 & 96 than in 91 & 92.
Fact.

She never played a top 4 player at USO in 91 & 92.
In 95 & 96 she lost to #1, Miss Stefanie Graf.
Fact.

It's really no rocket science ....

Actually the 92 US Open (with out losing a set) was her best US Open win defeating Sanchez-vicario in the final. And in 1991 she defeated Navratilova in the final - those are worthy opponents in my opinion.

Calimero377
Apr 20th, 2005, 09:56 PM
Actually the 92 US Open (with out losing a set) was her best US Open win. So once again, you are talking opinions not facts.


Beating unseeded Gigi Fernandez, unseeded Patricia Hy, 7th-seed MJ Fernandez and 5th-seed ASV in last 4 matches. Wow, must be toughest draw ever .....
:lol:

R&J
Apr 20th, 2005, 09:56 PM
I rephrase it:
No sane person says that Graf was at her peak in 90-April93.

Once again, you are all about "what ever makes Steffi look better." You spout out opinions as facts all the time.

R&J
Apr 20th, 2005, 09:58 PM
Beating unseeded Gigi Fernandez, unseeded Patricia Hy, 7th-seed MJ Fernandez and 5th-seed ASV in last 4 matches. Wow, must be toughest draw ever .....
:lol:

And before Monica came around, Steffi only had to deal with Navratilova and a few others. Look at all those GS she won with out Monica. Could go either way dude.

LeRoy.
Apr 20th, 2005, 10:01 PM
http://www.tennis-forum.net/tennis/Seles_at_US_Open_19911996_Questions_321951.html

Someone is obsessed with Seles and everything about her.

Calimero377
Apr 20th, 2005, 10:03 PM
And before Monica came around, Steffi only had to deal with Navratilova and a few others. Look at all those GS she won with out Monica. Could go either way dude.


We were comparing Seles at USO 91 & 92 with Seles at USO 95 & 96.

So what about

"Seles lost less matches in first 6 rounds in 95/96 compared to 91/92, didn't beat a top-4 player in 91/92, lost to #1 Graf in 95/96 finals."

you didn't grasp?

Calimero377
Apr 20th, 2005, 10:05 PM
http://www.tennis-forum.net/tennis/Seles_at_US_Open_19911996_Questions_321951.html

Someone is obsessed with Seles and everything about her.


What about

"Which Seles was better in Flushing Meadow? Seles of 91/92 or Seles of
95/96?

In 91/92 she lost 33 and 21 games in her 6 matches before the final.
In 1991 she defeated #7-seed Capriati (then 15 years old) in the
semis and #5-seed MN (almost 35 years old) in the final. In 1992 she
had to defeat #7 MJ Fernandez to reach the finals where she beat
#5-seed Sanchez.

In 95/96 Seles lost only 26 and 18 games in the pre-final matches.
Better than in 91/92.
Monica had to beat #11 Huber, #5 Novotna and #4 Martinez in 1995 to
reach the final where Graf defeated her. In 1996 Seles reached the
final with a victory over #4 Martinez, but there Steffi Graf was too
strong again.

The road to the finals was easier in 91/92 than in 95/96 judging from
the seeded players Seles had to eliminate.

Would Seles have beaten a 91-MN or a 92-ASV in the 95/96 finals?
Would Seles have beaten a 95/96-Graf in the 91/92 finals?
And of course: Would Seles have reached the finals in 93/94 and beaten
Graf (Graf *was* there)?
Hmm .... "


didn't sink in?

LeRoy.
Apr 20th, 2005, 10:05 PM
"Seles lost less matches in first 6 rounds in 95/96 compared to 91/92, didn't beat a top-4 player in 91/92, lost to #1 Graf in 95/96 finals."



Seles won all the seven matches in 91/92 and only six in 95/96.

R&J
Apr 20th, 2005, 10:07 PM
We were comparing Seles at USO 91 & 92 with Seles at USO 95 & 96.

So what about

"Seles lost less matches in first 6 rounds in 95/96 compared to 91/92, didn't beat a top-4 player in 91/92, lost to #1 Graf in 95/96 finals."

you didn't grasp?

What about it Cali?! What are you trying to get at?

Calimero377
Apr 20th, 2005, 10:08 PM
Seles won all the seven matches in 91/92 and only six in 95/96.


Why only six in 95/96?

I tell you - she played Graf in the finals ....

:worship:

R&J
Apr 20th, 2005, 10:10 PM
Cali, you are the only person I have ever heard/seen that acts like Monica ruined their world.

Brooks.
Apr 20th, 2005, 10:15 PM
clay 50-50
ReboundAce (AO) 60-40 in Seles' favour
hard court 60-40 in Graf's favour
indoor (carpet) 65-35 in Graf's favour
grass 85-15 in Graf's favour

Graf was 10-5 H2H against Seles, 5-2 when Seles was #1 ...

Cali you always claim what matters most are slams, right? so who really cares if steffi beat monica in the 91 hamburg finals........lets look at it this way........up to the stabbing steffi and monica were 3-3 in slam matches....with monica winning 3 of the last 4 slam matches.....and if you take out the two slam matches they played in 89' (seles' first year on the tour) you can see that seles comprehensively held the edge 3-1 in slam matches...therefore she was the better big match player and in turn the better player up to the stabbing :wavey:

SM
Apr 20th, 2005, 10:17 PM
Why only six in 95/96?

I tell you - she played Graf in the finals ....

:worship:


i think the final of us open provides further weight to my belief monica would have kicked her arse had she not been stabbed. she came back out of shape and without having played for 2 years, and still nearly kicked steffi's butt (probably wouldve if she hadnt been rippedoff on a line call in 2nd set)



monica would have dominated stefi for one simple indisputable reason - she had her number and was mentally tougher . fact. the last match they played at a slam as steffi simply looked like she was lost towards the end with no idea how to counter monica's tenacity and aggression:kiss:

SM
Apr 20th, 2005, 10:21 PM
veeree fan u hit the nail on the head m8 :)

Calimero377
Apr 20th, 2005, 10:23 PM
Cali, you are the only person I have ever heard/seen that acts like Monica ruined their world.


No way!
Graf scored many of her sweetest wins against Seles.
3 slam finals: USO 95 & 96 and of course the great Wimbledon 92 drubbing (record loss for a #1 player).
YEC quarters 98 (U.S. crowd overwhelmingly cheering for Steffi).
FO 99 semis.

On the other hand Seles took away only FO 92 title (Graf played great).
Steffi would have lost FO 90 (slump start) and AO 93 (pulled groin muscle) finals to any top player anyway.

GoDominique
Apr 20th, 2005, 10:26 PM
i think the final of us open provides further weight to my belief monica would have kicked her arse had she not been stabbed. she came back out of shape and without having played for 2 years, and still nearly kicked steffi's butt (probably wouldve if she hadnt been rippedoff on a line call in 2nd set)Hmmm but she still won the set 6-0 so I'm not sure whether that line-call had that much of an influence. :)

fOxYLiCiOuS
Apr 20th, 2005, 10:27 PM
GOOOO MONICA!! :hearts: :D :p :bounce:

Calimero377
Apr 20th, 2005, 10:34 PM
Cali you always claim what matters most are slams, right? so who really cares if steffi beat monica in the 91 hamburg finals........lets look at it this way........up to the stabbing steffi and monica were 3-3 in slam matches....with monica winning 3 of the last 4 slam matches.....and if you take out the two slam matches they played in 89' (seles' first year on the tour) you can see that seles comprehensively held the edge 3-1 in slam matches...therefore she was the better big match player and in turn the better player up to the stabbing :wavey:


:lol:
you take every match out of the equation that doesn't suit you ....

Never mind - EVEN those 4 slam finals in 90-93 don't prove anything.

1) Seles beat Graf at FO 90 with 74-73 on points-played. A squeaker win.
She beat Graf at FO 92 with 10-8 in 3rd set. Another squeaker win.
And she beat Graf at AO 93 with 86-78 on points-played, winning the last 7 points (= winning in last 4 minutes = squeaker win).
But who can forget Graf's demolition job at Wimbledon 92 (a 6-2, 6-1 win)?

2) In 91/92 ASV was 2-1 against Graf in slams. In 95/97 Coetzer was 2-1 against Graf in slams. In 86/87 Navi was 3-1 against Graf in slams. So what?

SM
Apr 20th, 2005, 10:36 PM
godominque wasnt there a line call that mightve cost monica the match? im not good with the stats, i think i read about it in monica's book.... wish i could see that match especially that 6-0 lol

Calimero377
Apr 20th, 2005, 10:43 PM
i think the final of us open provides further weight to my belief monica would have kicked her arse had she not been stabbed. she came back out of shape and without having played for 2 years, and still nearly kicked steffi's butt (probably wouldve if she hadnt been rippedoff on a line call in 2nd set) ...

Seles won the 2nd set ...

BTW, Graf played injured in the USO 95 final, was x-rayed in hospital the night before, played with heavily taped foot. And we must not forget that her dad had been thrown into the slammer just 4 weeks earlier. And Seles had her home crowd supporting her.





monica would have dominated stefi for one simple indisputable reason - she had her number and was mentally tougher . fact. the last match they played at a slam as steffi simply looked like she was lost towards the end with no idea how to counter monica's tenacity and aggression:kiss:


Steffi's number?
When Seles was #1 pre-stabbing Graf won 3 of 5 matches against her.
:lol:

Mentally tough?
Going AWOL for 2.25 years because of a 1-cm stab wound (needed ONE stitch to be closed)?
Good one ... :lol:

Looking lost "at the end"?
If we talked about "looking lost from start to end" I would mention Wimbledon 92 (Wimbledon is more important that AO, no?) ....
:lol:



(OMG ....... :lol: :lol: :lol:)

Calimero377
Apr 20th, 2005, 10:45 PM
godominque wasnt there a line call that mightve cost monica the match? im not good with the stats, ....

No need to tell us.
Selesians NEVER are good with the stats ....


:lol:

LeRoy.
Apr 20th, 2005, 10:46 PM
That horrendous line call was a clear ace serve that was called a "fault" and that would have given Monica a set point in the first set TB (I maybe wrong but i am sure it was in the first set and in the TB)

GoDominique
Apr 20th, 2005, 10:46 PM
godominque wasnt there a line call that mightve cost monica the match? im not good with the stats, i think i read about it in monica's book.... wish i could see that match especially that 6-0 lol
I think you are referring to the call in the first set tie-break. :)

Just wondering: How can you claim Monica was "ripped off" when you have never seen that point?
The serve might have caught the line, but it was by no means right on it.

R&J
Apr 20th, 2005, 10:55 PM
Like I said....Cali, you are the only person I have ever heard/seen that acts like Monica ruined their world. You sound like another lunatic named Gunther who lives in Germany. Where do you live?

SelesFan70
Apr 20th, 2005, 11:21 PM
I think you are referring to the call in the first set tie-break. :)

Just wondering: How can you claim Monica was "ripped off" when you have never seen that point?
The serve might have caught the line, but it was by no means right on it.

It was on set point to give Monica the 1st set (in a tie-breaker). Monica served what she thought was an ace and she jolted to the sideline, but it was called out. I have that match on tape, and Martina Navratilova was commentating along with Mary Carillo and Jim Nantz(I think). Martina was no fan of Steffi, and she never said it was good. The replays were bad, but had it been on the line, Martina, I'm sure, would have made the case. As it was, Monica simply ran out of gas in the 3rd set. :(

SM
Apr 20th, 2005, 11:22 PM
cali, why should i be obssessed with stats ? some of us have lives to live outside of this messageboard .. besides they dont tell the entire story. watching monica vs steffi in the slam finals is enough evidence for me :)

R&J
Apr 20th, 2005, 11:41 PM
I guess Cali is just upset cause the thread that we are discussing is about a final that Monica def Steffi in. I can see why he would be upset.

Philbo
Apr 20th, 2005, 11:42 PM
We must not forget that Navi had a 67-3 win/loss streak from spring 89 until winter 90. Her 3 losses ALL came against peak Steffi Graf.
So it is safe to say that WITHOUT Graf Navi would have had a 70-match winning streak. Navi herself is the only player ever in the open era who had a longer streak .... :worship:

Using Calimero's own logic to make him look like a fool..

Cali likes to state totally incorrectly that Navratilova was still PEAK Martina in 88, 89 - we all know this is utter crap with Martina losing to the likes of Zvereva, Savchenko and one or two other huge names..Martina was actually burnt out during 88,89..

However Cali's EVIDENCE is picking out one little section (spring 89 to winter 90) in those 2 years where she lost 3 times to Graf and then saying that if Graf wasnt there Martina would have had a 70 match winning streak which means Martina is at her peak...

However, in 1987 Calimero doesnt count this as a PEAK Graf year..

But If you look at it, Graf was undefeated til Wimbledon, and ONLY LOST 2 MATCHES THE ENTIRE YEAR.

Which matches??? THe Wimbledon and US Open Finals, - the two biggest matches, in straight sets, to Martina Navratilova.

The question is so obvious - if Steffi hadnt lost to Martina, she would have been UNDEFEATED THE ENTIRE SEASON..

So why does Calimero not also count 1987 as PEAK Graf years?? by his own logic, she was at her peak..

Because all he likes to do is take numbers and twist and skew them selectively to back up whatever bullshit claim he is trying to make.. Upon a slightly closer look at the numbers, you can see what an idiot this fool is...Him + LaDyV = two peas in a pod...

tennislover
Apr 21st, 2005, 11:50 AM
I prefer Graf-Navi Wimbledon 88 & 89 finals. The two greatest-ever at their favourite slam in peak prime form.

Navi in peak? :rolleyes:
navi was in peak in 1983-84.....

anyway how about to come back to that time (late 80's) with a time-machine and see again that amazing show (with a different score :lol: 1-1 )? it would be very cool......
it's nice daydreaming....

bandabou
Apr 21st, 2005, 12:41 PM
Using Calimero's own logic to make him look like a fool..

Cali likes to state totally incorrectly that Navratilova was still PEAK Martina in 88, 89 - we all know this is utter crap with Martina losing to the likes of Zvereva, Savchenko and one or two other huge names..Martina was actually burnt out during 88,89..

However Cali's EVIDENCE is picking out one little section (spring 89 to winter 90) in those 2 years where she lost 3 times to Graf and then saying that if Graf wasnt there Martina would have had a 70 match winning streak which means Martina is at her peak...

However, in 1987 Calimero doesnt count this as a PEAK Graf year..

But If you look at it, Graf was undefeated til Wimbledon, and ONLY LOST 2 MATCHES THE ENTIRE YEAR.

Which matches??? THe Wimbledon and US Open Finals, - the two biggest matches, in straight sets, to Martina Navratilova.

The question is so obvious - if Steffi hadnt lost to Martina, she would have been UNDEFEATED THE ENTIRE SEASON..

So why does Calimero not also count 1987 as PEAK Graf years?? by his own logic, she was at her peak..

Because all he likes to do is take numbers and twist and skew them selectively to back up whatever bullshit claim he is trying to make.. Upon a slightly closer look at the numbers, you can see what an idiot this fool is...Him + LaDyV = two peas in a pod...


Interesting.....

DA FOREHAND
Apr 21st, 2005, 03:18 PM
"clay 50-50
ReboundAce (AO) 60-40 in Seles' favour
hard court 60-40 in Graf's favour
indoor (carpet) 65-35 in Graf's favour
grass 85-15 in Graf's favour

Graf was 10-5 H2H "

That's about right

Calimero377
Apr 21st, 2005, 07:50 PM
cali, why should i be obssessed with stats ? some of us have lives to live outside of this messageboard .. besides they dont tell the entire story. watching monica vs steffi in the slam finals is enough evidence for me :)


Graf vs. Seles in slam finals:

matches won: 3-3 (Graf one Wimby & 2 USOs, Seles one AO & 2 FOs)
What would you prefer: 1 Wim/2 USOs or 1 AO/2 FOs ..... ?

sets won: 8-7 in Grafs favour

points won: 508-490 in Graf's favour


And we most not forget that Graf won 3 of 4 non-finals matches against Seles at slams.


So the nod goes to Graf without any doubt.


:worship:

Calimero377
Apr 21st, 2005, 07:54 PM
I guess Cali is just upset cause the thread that we are discussing is about a final that Monica def Steffi in. I can see why he would be upset.


No way!
That was one of the greatest slam finals ever!

BTW, let's try to choose, say, 6 slam finals where our faves played better tennis.

I'll start with Graf:

Wimbledon 88, 89, 92.
FO 88.
AO 94.
USO 96.

And now you with Seles .....


:wavey:

darren cahill
Apr 21st, 2005, 08:53 PM
I liked the match but it sure wasnt the best final ever. but it did have some dramatic moments. but man, the crowd was unreal in that last set. that made for some awesome moments. i think i remember that more than the match itself. the chanting of Steffis name. I think this was the beginning of the French crowds love affair with Graf. They were always on her side after this match.

Calimero377
Apr 21st, 2005, 09:30 PM
.....
However, in 1987 Calimero doesnt count this as a PEAK Graf year..
.....
So why does Calimero not also count 1987 as PEAK Graf years?? by his own logic, she was at her peak..
...


Of course Graf was at her peak in 1987 as well.
She had a 75-2 win/loss record, her 2nd-best ever.
At year's end she had a 49-pts. lead in the WTA rankings (Seles had a bigger lead only for a few months in 1991/92).
Steffi's loss against Navi at USO was caused by having flu (38.5 C fever). At Wimbledon Navi was more experienced still. But Graf destroyed Navi & Evert back-to-back at Key Biscayne (6-3, 6-2 & 6-1, 6-2).

It is debatable whether she was even better in 88/89 or 95/96, but 87 is definitely among Graf's 5 best seasons ever.

Next question, chokerfan?

R&J
Apr 21st, 2005, 10:32 PM
No way!
That was one of the greatest slam finals ever!

BTW, let's try to choose, say, 6 slam finals where our faves played better tennis.

I'll start with Graf:

Wimbledon 88, 89, 92.
FO 88.
AO 94.
USO 96.

And now you with Seles .....


:wavey:

Cali, you would still make an excuse no matter what I said.

Calimero377
Apr 21st, 2005, 10:40 PM
Cali, you would still make an excuse no matter what I said.


Hey, R&J tries to chicken out!

Name 6 slam final matches when Seles played better than at FO 92!
Graf has at least Wimbledon 88, 89, 92, AO 94, FO 88 and USO 96 ....
:cool:

Of course, a thundering silence.
As always .....

LeRoy.
Apr 21st, 2005, 10:52 PM
Hey R&J , i found this Monica interview from around AO 05. I dunno if you'll have it on your website . Just thought I'd share

Interview
http://mfile.akamai.com/8583/asf/ibmaus.download.akamai.com/8583/2005/aotv0128_hi_2.asx

R&J
Apr 21st, 2005, 11:04 PM
Hey, R&J tries to chicken out!

Name 6 slam final matches when Seles played better than at FO 92!
Graf has at least Wimbledon 88, 89, 92, AO 94, FO 88 and USO 96 ....
:cool:

Of course, a thundering silence.
As always .....

Nothing to do with being scared Cali, I just know that it doesnt matter what anybody says, you make excuses for everything.

Calimero377
Apr 21st, 2005, 11:09 PM
Nothing to do with being scared Cali, I just know that it doesnt matter what anybody says, you make excuses for everything.


Excuses for Seles playing even better than in FO 92 final .... ?
:lol:

clonesheep
Apr 21st, 2005, 11:33 PM
that graf def hingis 99 french was the most entertaining but i dont know about in terms of quality ;). i actually fell asleep during that match cos we get very late coverage in aus but i did tape it...still it wouldve been much better *live*
I agree. That match is high on drama but only moderate in quality. Graf was one month before her retirement and 10 years removed from her peak year (she won the Grand Slam at 19; She was 29 at that FO final.) She was no longer dominating, coming into the tournament as an underdog. Hingis, on the other hand, was expected to win and she desperately wanted to win. The result was a mental meltdown in the 3rd set. So, one could say that a determined, but not in best form, Graf beat a nervous and distracted Hingis on that day. But it was great drama and a nice comeback story.

faboozadoo15
Apr 21st, 2005, 11:36 PM
"clay 50-50
ReboundAce (AO) 60-40 in Seles' favour
hard court 60-40 in Graf's favour
indoor (carpet) 65-35 in Graf's favour
grass 85-15 in Graf's favour

Graf was 10-5 H2H "

That's about right
clay :rolleyes: rebound ace :rolleyes:
monica had lost one french open match in her entire career and that was to graf in 3 sets as a 15 year old. then she wn 3 straight RG titles, beating graf in 2 of them. there's no way they were even on clay.

there was no way steffi is/was/could ever defeat monica on a rebound ace court. it just wouldn't happen. steffi played one of her greatest matches ever and monica was just too tough in australia for her.

and who could care if steffi could beat monica in san antonio on these "fast hardcourts" monica was dragging home a much bigger trophy, the us open 2 straight years before she was stabbed. and she had three straight masters indoors titles before the stabbing. monica can't help it if steffi could't make it to those finals. but that's not a great case for steffi owning monica on those surfaces just because she beat her in san antonio.

Philbo
Apr 22nd, 2005, 12:23 AM
Of course Graf was at her peak in 1987 as well.
She had a 75-2 win/loss record, her 2nd-best ever.
At year's end she had a 49-pts. lead in the WTA rankings (Seles had a bigger lead only for a few months in 1991/92).
Steffi's loss against Navi at USO was caused by having flu (38.5 C fever). At Wimbledon Navi was more experienced still. But Graf destroyed Navi & Evert back-to-back at Key Biscayne (6-3, 6-2 & 6-1, 6-2).

It is debatable whether she was even better in 88/89 or 95/96, but 87 is definitely among Graf's 5 best seasons ever.

Next question, chokerfan?

LMAO @ the flu!! You really do have an excuse for everything Calimero.

Okay well if Graf lost the US due to flu, Martina only lost Wimbledon 88 due to her hip flexor injury that caused her to pull out of the mixed doubles semi final the day before the womens final..and she only lost the 89 final due to the fact that she had a sore throat the night before which bothered her during the match... wow this 'excuse game' is too damm easy!!

But Im happy you admitted Graf was at her peak in 1987 - up until now you've only ever used 1988 as the beginning of Graf's peak. I'll take that as a small victory..

So now we have it that PEAK Graf could only beat Martina 8-6 in the 3rd on clay, after Martina chokes the match away serving for it at 5-4 in the 3rd on clay - a surface much more suited to Graf..

And on grass we have clear superiority - straight sets demolition, and to prove it was no fluke, she followed it up with an almost identical straight sets victory at the US Open..

1987 is the year where Martina and Steffi were both closest to their peaks.. Martina wins the the two biggest tournaments beating PEAK Graf in straight sets in both finals..

Why are we even having this discussion???

bandabou
Apr 22nd, 2005, 12:48 AM
Oh, oh...Cali logic coming back to haunt him AGAIN?

Geisha
Apr 22nd, 2005, 12:57 AM
Seles had an edge on Graf on hardcourts? Based on what? How many times has Monica beaten Steffi on a hardcourt? Before you answer A.O. is not a hardcourt. Indoor carpet was one of Steffi's strongest surfaces, she would def. have the edge there.

On clay Monica didn't enjoy a 60-40 advantage over GRAF.

Rebound Ace is considered a hard court surface. Everybody knows that the Australian Open and US Open are played on hardcourts, and the French Open is played on clay, and Wimbledon is played on grass.

It's like clay. Green clay and red clay are different (made of different things, play a little different), but BOTH are considered clay courts.

Philbo
Apr 22nd, 2005, 01:09 AM
Rebound Ace is considered a hard court surface. Everybody knows that the Australian Open and US Open are played on hardcourts, and the French Open is played on clay, and Wimbledon is played on grass.

It's like clay. Green clay and red clay are different (made of different things, play a little different), but BOTH are considered clay courts.

Exactly...

R&J
Apr 22nd, 2005, 02:31 AM
Excuses for Seles playing even better than in FO 92 final .... ?
:lol:

So childish for a man in his 50's.

spencercarlos
Apr 22nd, 2005, 03:45 AM
What about

"Which Seles was better in Flushing Meadow? Seles of 91/92 or Seles of
95/96?

In 91/92 she lost 33 and 21 games in her 6 matches before the final.
In 1991 she defeated #7-seed Capriati (then 15 years old) in the
semis and #5-seed MN (almost 35 years old) in the final. In 1992 she
had to defeat #7 MJ Fernandez to reach the finals where she beat
#5-seed Sanchez.

In 95/96 Seles lost only 26 and 18 games in the pre-final matches.
Better than in 91/92.
Monica had to beat #11 Huber, #5 Novotna and #4 Martinez in 1995 to
reach the final where Graf defeated her. In 1996 Seles reached the
final with a victory over #4 Martinez, but there Steffi Graf was too
strong again.

The road to the finals was easier in 91/92 than in 95/96 judging from
the seeded players Seles had to eliminate.

Would Seles have beaten a 91-MN or a 92-ASV in the 95/96 finals?
Would Seles have beaten a 95/96-Graf in the 91/92 finals?
And of course: Would Seles have reached the finals in 93/94 and beaten
Graf (Graf *was* there)?
Hmm .... "


didn't sink in?
Hi again FooLIMERO Seles won a W/O at the Usopen 96, of course she would lose less games that year. Interesting that year she was clearly injured on her shoulder, the year before she was hitting serves past 106Mph, that year she could only serve at the high 80`s. I bet you never saw the matches but watch 95 vs Martinez and 96 vs Martinez, a clear evidence that Monica was notches below in 96. 95 was a complete demolution (6-2 6-2) and its even more interesting that Martinez 95 was better than Martinez 96.
Anyway in 1995 as great as Steffi was that year, how could you expect that Monica could survive a three setter against Graf after coming back from a 2 year abscence? She was clearly tired out in the third set but its ok Seles 95 was still as great as 90-93, the results show.. Same great as Graf did it in 91-92 :wavey:

Usopen 96
128 W Anne MILLER (USA) 6-0 6-1
64 O Laurence COURTOIS (BEL) W/O
32 W Dally RANDRIANTEFY (MAD) 6-0 6-2
16 W Sandrine TESTUD (FRA) 7-5 6-0
QF W Amanda COETZER (RSA) 6-0 6-3
SF W Conchita MARTINEZ (ESP) 6-4 6-3
FR L Steffi GRAF (GER) 5-7 4-6

Usopen 95
128 W Ruxandra DRAGOMIR (ROM) 6-3 6-1
64 W Erika DE LONE (USA) 6-2 6-1
32 W Yone KAMIO (JPN) 6-1 6-1
16 W Anke HUBER (GER) 6-1 6-4
QF W Jana NOVOTNA (CZE) 7-6 6-2
SF W Conchita MARTINEZ (ESP) 6-2 6-2
FR L Steffi GRAF (GER) 6-7 6-0 3-6


Usopen 92
128 W Audra KELLER (USA) 6-1 6-0
64 W Lisa RAYMOND (USA) 7-5 6-0
32 W Claudia PORWIK (GER) 6-4 6-0
16 W Gigi FERNANDEZ (USA) 6-1 6-2
QF W Patricia HY (CAN) 6-1 6-2
SF W Mary-Joe FERNANDEZ (USA) 6-3 6-2
FR W Arantxa SANCHEZ-VICARIO (ESP) 6-3 6-3

Usopen 91
128 W Nicole ARENDT (USA) 6-2 6-0
64 W Emanuela ZARDO (SUI) 6-0 4-6 6-0
32 W Sara GOMER (GBR) 6-1 6-4
16 W Regina RAJCHRTOVA (TCH) 6-1 6-1
QF W Gigi FERNANDEZ (USA) 6-1 6-2
SF W Jennifer CAPRIATI (USA) 6-3 3-6 7-6(3)
FR W Martina NAVRATILOVA (USA) 7-6(1) 6-1

Total games lost in first 6 matches
91=33
92=21
95=26
96=18*

Can`t believe you are counting 1996 :lol: that WO :rolleyes: typical you.

BTW im still waiting for your answer about the 1990 RG final, the winners-errors stuff you kept talking the other day.. :devil: :wavey:

spencercarlos
Apr 22nd, 2005, 03:51 AM
clay :rolleyes: rebound ace :rolleyes:
monica had lost one french open match in her entire career and that was to graf in 3 sets as a 15 year old. then she wn 3 straight RG titles, beating graf in 2 of them. there's no way they were even on clay.

there was no way steffi is/was/could ever defeat monica on a rebound ace court. it just wouldn't happen. steffi played one of her greatest matches ever and monica was just too tough in australia for her.

and who could care if steffi could beat monica in san antonio on these "fast hardcourts" monica was dragging home a much bigger trophy, the us open 2 straight years before she was stabbed. and she had three straight masters indoors titles before the stabbing. monica can't help it if steffi could't make it to those finals. but that's not a great case for steffi owning monica on those surfaces just because she beat her in san antonio.
An amazing how Daforehand rates AO at 60-40 when Monica won 100% of the matches played on the surface... even after the stabbing :lol:

DA FOREHAND
Apr 22nd, 2005, 02:27 PM
clay :rolleyes: rebound ace :rolleyes:
monica had lost one french open match in her entire career and that was to graf in 3 sets as a 15 year old. then she wn 3 straight RG titles, beating graf in 2 of them. there's no way they were even on clay.

there was no way steffi is/was/could ever defeat monica on a rebound ace court. it just wouldn't happen. steffi played one of her greatest matches ever and monica was just too tough in australia for her.

and who could care if steffi could beat monica in san antonio on these "fast hardcourts" monica was dragging home a much bigger trophy, the us open 2 straight years before she was stabbed. and she had three straight masters indoors titles before the stabbing. monica can't help it if steffi could't make it to those finals. but that's not a great case for steffi owning monica on those surfaces just because she beat her in san antonio.


Let me put this to rest...Monica Seles NEVER beat STEFFI GRAF on any fast surface...PERIOD.

Rebound Ace is a rubberized surface it is not a true hard court. And yes even on that surface I'd still put Monica at 60-40.


In fact if there were to square off today I'd let Selestials choose the surface and I'd still bet my 401K that STEFFI would be the victor.

G-Ha
Apr 22nd, 2005, 04:07 PM
An amazing how Daforehand rates AO at 60-40 when Monica won 100% of the matches played on the surface... even after the stabbing :lol:

And apparently, you are very selective in what you find amazing. At least Steffi was competitive against Monica on Rebound Ace. Monica won a WHOPPING 4 games total against Steffi in the 2 matches they played on grass, yet a poster in here would only give Steffi a slight 60-40 edge on grass. If anything deserves a :lol:, it's that statment!

R&J
Apr 22nd, 2005, 04:29 PM
In fact if there were to square off today I'd let Selestials choose the surface and I'd still bet my 401K that STEFFI would be the victor.

:lol: That would be great, I could use the money.

Calimero377
Apr 22nd, 2005, 04:36 PM
clay :rolleyes: rebound ace :rolleyes:
monica had lost one french open match in her entire career and that was to graf in 3 sets as a 15 year old. then she wn 3 straight RG titles, beating graf in 2 of them. there's no way they were even on clay.

there was no way steffi is/was/could ever defeat monica on a rebound ace court. it just wouldn't happen. steffi played one of her greatest matches ever and monica was just too tough in australia for her.

and who could care if steffi could beat monica in san antonio on these "fast hardcourts" monica was dragging home a much bigger trophy, the us open 2 straight years before she was stabbed. and she had three straight masters indoors titles before the stabbing. monica can't help it if steffi could't make it to those finals. but that's not a great case for steffi owning monica on those surfaces just because she beat her in san antonio.


In 17-year-long careers Seles won 3 FOs and Graf 6.
Seles made one more FO finals and Graf 3.
Graf has a 90 % winning-percentage on clay and Seles only 85 %.

That is far more telling than TWO final matches at FO in 90/92 - one of which Seles won with 74-73 on points-played (90) and another one which Seles won with 10-8 in 3rd set.

In 17-year-long careers Seles won 4 AOs and Graf won 4 AOs as well.
Graf reached another AO final, Seles didn't.
Graf played one of her best ever slam tournaments at AO 94, destroying ASV with 6-0, 6-2 (against same player she struggled mightily in 93 and lost subsequently to Seles in final).

Nevertheless I would give the edge to Seles as she beat Graf at AO 93 AND AO 99. ReboundAce was perhaps Seles' best and Graf's worst surface. But Graf proved that she could win 4 slams EVEN on her worst surface. Seles didn't prove that (grass).

Seles won USOs against #5 or #7 players. Not her fault that Graf didn't make the finals in 91/92. But WHEN made the finals against Seles, Seles was toast. And that is no surprise as Seles EVEN lost to Graf at her peak and Graf's worst slump (1991) on fast hard-courts: In San Antonio 1991 (6-4, 6-3 in Graf's favour).

We know that Seles didn't win a lot from 1995 until 2005. Why do you think it would have been different in 1993/95? Because of TWO good Seles years in 91/92? IMO, 10 years without much success are far more significant than 2 years of success. 10 vs. 2. It's no rocket science ....

:lol:

Calimero377
Apr 22nd, 2005, 04:43 PM
LMAO @ the flu!! You really do have an excuse for everything Calimero.

Okay well if Graf lost the US due to flu, Martina only lost Wimbledon 88 due to her hip flexor injury that caused her to pull out of the mixed doubles semi final the day before the womens final..and she only lost the 89 final due to the fact that she had a sore throat the night before which bothered her during the match... wow this 'excuse game' is too damm easy!!

But Im happy you admitted Graf was at her peak in 1987 - up until now you've only ever used 1988 as the beginning of Graf's peak. I'll take that as a small victory..

So now we have it that PEAK Graf could only beat Martina 8-6 in the 3rd on clay, after Martina chokes the match away serving for it at 5-4 in the 3rd on clay - a surface much more suited to Graf..

And on grass we have clear superiority - straight sets demolition, and to prove it was no fluke, she followed it up with an almost identical straight sets victory at the US Open..

1987 is the year where Martina and Steffi were both closest to their peaks.. Martina wins the the two biggest tournaments beating PEAK Graf in straight sets in both finals..

Why are we even having this discussion???


1) 1987 is one of Graf's best five years. No-one denies that.
She was 2-2 H2H against Navi in that year, won 11 tournaments (Navi 4), led the year-end's rankings with 49 points. And she had 38.5 Celsius fever in the USO final.

2) Navi of 1989 was far better than Navi of 1987.

3) Peak 1991 Seles lost all two matches against Graf that year.

Your point being ... ?

Calimero377
Apr 22nd, 2005, 04:44 PM
Rebound Ace is considered a hard court surface. Everybody knows that the Australian Open and US Open are played on hardcourts, and the French Open is played on clay, and Wimbledon is played on grass.

It's like clay. Green clay and red clay are different (made of different things, play a little different), but BOTH are considered clay courts.


Your point being?

Calimero377
Apr 22nd, 2005, 04:47 PM
<illogical spencercarlos drivel mercifully del>

BTW im still waiting for your answer about the 1990 RG final, the winners-errors stuff you kept talking the other day.. :devil: :wavey:


Answer?
Please repeat the question.
I don't know what you are talking about.

Calimero377
Apr 22nd, 2005, 04:49 PM
An amazing how Daforehand rates AO at 60-40 when Monica won 100% of the matches played on the surface... even after the stabbing :lol:


Schnyder won 100 % of the matches on all surfaces against Graf.

Your point being?

DownBoy!
Apr 22nd, 2005, 06:58 PM
Steffi (or Stephanie as she now prefers to be called!) is now retired. Monica is in limbo. I read an article on Natasha Zvereva, a brilliant doubles player. I agree with the article's summary - that Natasha may not have had the determination or drive in singles, but she ended up far happier and more content that either. Because Steffi's 'record' has a question mark over it (due to Monica's absence) and Monica is unfulfilled, and the drive and need and desire of both Monica and Steffi was never fully tested or resolved because of Hamburg. In my view, both Monica and Steffi will never rest totally in peace because of this never ending debate.

faboozadoo15
Apr 22nd, 2005, 08:46 PM
Let me put this to rest...Monica Seles NEVER beat STEFFI GRAF on any fast surface...PERIOD.

Rebound Ace is a rubberized surface it is not a true hard court. And yes even on that surface I'd still put Monica at 60-40.


In fact if there were to square off today I'd let Selestials choose the surface and I'd still bet my 401K that STEFFI would be the victor.
well i guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. there's no way steffi is anywhere near as good as monica on rebound ace courts, and yes, i'd take you up on that bet of who would win if they played today.

faboozadoo15
Apr 22nd, 2005, 08:47 PM
Steffi (or Stephanie as she now prefers to be called!) is now retired. Monica is in limbo. I read an article on Natasha Zvereva, a brilliant doubles player. I agree with the article's summary - that Natasha may not have had the determination or drive in singles, but she ended up far happier and more content that either. Because Steffi's 'record' has a question mark over it (due to Monica's absence) and Monica is unfulfilled, and the drive and need and desire of both Monica and Steffi was never fully tested or resolved because of Hamburg. In my view, both Monica and Steffi will never rest totally in peace because of this never ending debate.
i actually doubt either steffi or monica care much about this... i'm sure they will both rest well.

miranda_lou
Apr 22nd, 2005, 09:06 PM
In my view, both Monica and Steffi will never rest totally in peace because of this never ending debate.

I'm certain Stefanie and Monica could care less what people on stupid message boards have to say.:rolleyes: In fact, if either of them bothered to check this board or any other board, they would fall off their chairs laughing.:lol: You people are so ridiculous.

Stefanie has two babies,:angel: a husband:kiss: and three homes to look after, along with her and her husbands business interests. I'm sure she rests very easily knowing that she had a great career and what ever people think about this "debate" on who was "greater" it's out of her hands and worrying about it would just give her wrinkles.:lol: :tape:

Calimero377
Apr 22nd, 2005, 09:29 PM
well i guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. there's no way steffi is anywhere near as good as monica on rebound ace courts, and yes, i'd take you up on that bet of who would win if they played today.

We must not forget that Seles had some squeaker wins at AO 91 & 92:

1991 semis against Mary Joe Fernandez (6-3 0-6 9-7 - MJF having mp, IIRC)
1991 final against Jana Novotna (5-7 6-3 6-1)
1992 4th against Leila Meshki (6-4, 4-6, 6-3)
1993 quarters against Julie Halard (6-2 6-7 6-0)
Halard and Meshki were far outside of top 10 ...

Peak Graf on the other hand won AO in 1988-90 three times and lost only ONE set (to Sukova in 1990 - Sukova being #7).

It is the same with Seles at FO and AO pre-stabbing: She struggled often in earlier rounds but was a mentally extremely strong player (as it is often the case with teenagers).

bandabou
Apr 22nd, 2005, 09:53 PM
1988-90...and then came Seles.......

Calimero377
Apr 22nd, 2005, 10:03 PM
1988-90...and then came Seles.......


You really think peak Graf of 88/90 would have lost sets at AO to Meshki & Halard types???? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Or would have had match-point against her against MJF and won only with 9-7 in 3rd set?????????? :haha: :haha: :haha:


OMG, this Graf hate knows no boundaries .......

thelittlestelf
Apr 22nd, 2005, 10:23 PM
1988-90...and then came Seles.......It's as simple as that!

Calimero377
Apr 22nd, 2005, 10:34 PM
It's as simple as that!


Fans of third tier players like Venus should be quiet when fans of first tier players (Graf, Navi, Court, Evert) and second tier players (King, Goolagong, Mandlikova, ASV, Hingis, Seles, Serena) discuss tennis.
Especially when they are far too young to have watched tennis 15 years ago.

:wavey:

bandabou
Apr 22nd, 2005, 10:51 PM
You really think peak Graf of 88/90 would have lost sets at AO to Meshki & Halard types???? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Or would have had match-point against her against MJF and won only with 9-7 in 3rd set?????????? :haha: :haha: :haha:


OMG, this Graf hate knows no boundaries .......


Hmmm......but she nearly lost to ASV in ' 95 at RG and at Wimby.

R&J
Apr 22nd, 2005, 10:55 PM
You really think peak Graf of 88/90 would have lost sets at AO to Meshki & Halard types???? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Or would have had match-point against her against MJF and won only with 9-7 in 3rd set?????????? :haha: :haha: :haha:



Yes, I am sure that Graf would have lost to Coetzer in the early rounds. :wavey:

Geisha
Apr 22nd, 2005, 11:01 PM
You really think peak Graf of 88/90 would have lost sets at AO to Meshki & Halard types???? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Or would have had match-point against her against MJF and won only with 9-7 in 3rd set?????????? :haha: :haha: :haha:


OMG, this Graf hate knows no boundaries .......

Honestly, that is just pure stupidity on your part Cali. It really is pathetic.

You said Monica had some squeaker wins at the Australian Open in 1991 and 1992? She won 5-7, 6-3, 6-1- that is NOT squeaker at all. 6-4, 4-6, 6-3? Once again...6-2, 6-7, 6-0? What?! She lost the second set! That's it!

Okay, against MJF that is a squeaker win, but that was a tough match and it was only a one-time thing.

And they are only sets!! That is like saying Serena Williams lost four sets en route to winning the US Open in 1999, but Hingis, who lost in the finals, lost only three sets- that Hingis was the better player. Just because Serena didn't whipe out her opponents, it doesn't mean she didn't play better tennis.

And I also think it is hilarious when everybody in this topic knows when players were at their peaks. "Peak Graf would have never lost"- "Peak Seles would have never lost." I think this is bullshit.

Cali, you say Graf wasn't in her peak from 1991-1993- DUH she wasn't! MONICA was BETTER! You hear that?! BETTER! Is it just a coincidence that Monica happened to dominate at the time when Graf wasn't at her peak? No. The dropping form of Graf happened because Monica was playing better tennis. She drove Graf out of her dominance. When Monica left, Graf was able to regain form.

faboozadoo15
Apr 22nd, 2005, 11:06 PM
Fans of third tier players like Venus should be quiet when fans of first tier players (Graf, Navi, Court, Evert) and second tier players (King, Goolagong, Mandlikova, ASV, Hingis, Seles, Serena) discuss tennis.
Especially when they are far too young to have watched tennis 15 years ago.

:wavey:
well by that logic, someone who is a detroit tigers fan of 30 years shouldn't be able to discuss baseball with a yankees fan.
who you are a fan of has often little to do with sports knowledge. there are amazingly devoted tennis fans whose favorite players play challengers or are ranked outside the top 20. being a fan of venus williams (an amazing player) shouldn't be something held against anyone by any means.

Calimero377
Apr 22nd, 2005, 11:11 PM
Yes, I am sure that Graf would have lost to Coetzer in the early rounds. :wavey:


Graf beat Coetzer easily at FO 92, USO 94, Wimbledon 95 and in a tough 3-setter at USO 95.
She lost only at AO 97 and FO 97 when her knee was falling apart and Coetzer was top 10.

We are talking "peak".
And it is a fact that peak Seles struggled in early rounds in her winning slams while Graf regularily cruised when she was at her peak.
Peak Graf > peak Seles.
Case closed.

RenaSlam.
Apr 22nd, 2005, 11:14 PM
Cali, not Monica's fault Graf couldn't make the finals of the '91 + '92 USO...too bad. Get over it. :)

Calimero377
Apr 22nd, 2005, 11:21 PM
....

Cali, you say Graf wasn't in her peak from 1991-1993- DUH she wasn't! ....

Exactly. To say otherwise would be ridiculous.


....
MONICA was BETTER! You hear that?! BETTER! Is it just a coincidence that Monica happened to dominate at the time when Graf wasn't at her peak? No. The dropping form of Graf happened because Monica was playing better tennis. She drove Graf out of her dominance. When Monica left, Graf was able to regain form.

Of course peak Seles was better than slumping Graf.
No, it was no coincidence that Seles became #1 when Graf was slumping. Because without the Graf slump Seles never would have gained the top spot.
Graf's form started to drop with the start of her family scandal in spring of 1990. Sabatini beat her her like a drum in 90/91. Graf even thought about retirement in February 1991 - when she still was #1 ....
In 91/92 (Seles' peak years) Graf and Seles played 4 matches.
Graf won 3 of them.
Three of four.

Seles was not the problem.
Her dad, Sabatini and injuries were.
:sad:

Calimero377
Apr 22nd, 2005, 11:28 PM
well by that logic, someone who is a detroit tigers fan of 30 years shouldn't be able to discuss baseball with a yankees fan.
who you are a fan of has often little to do with sports knowledge. there are amazingly devoted tennis fans whose favorite players play challengers or are ranked outside the top 20. being a fan of venus williams (an amazing player) shouldn't be something held against anyone by any means.


But isn't it amazing that Graf fans know so much more about tennis than, say, Seles or Hingis or Sharapova fans?
No, that can't be a coincidence.
Watching the greatest-ever simply educates you a lot in assessing a sport properly (eg. LDVTennis, !Schris!, Julia68, me). There is no doubt about that.

Calimero377
Apr 22nd, 2005, 11:31 PM
Cali, not Monica's fault Graf couldn't make the finals of the '91 + '92 USO...too bad. Get over it. :)


But when she made it (95 & 96) Seles lost.

Seles never beat Graf on fast courts (grass, indoors, hard courts). Graf won all 7 matches.
So we all know who would have won if Graf had made the 91 & 92 USO finals ...

Philbo
Apr 22nd, 2005, 11:36 PM
You really think peak Graf of 88/90 would have lost sets at AO to Meshki & Halard types???? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Or would have had match-point against her against MJF and won only with 9-7 in 3rd set?????????? :haha: :haha: :haha:


OMG, this Graf hate knows no boundaries .......

There you go again Cali, now you're saying peak Graf begins in 1988. Ive just gotten you to admit Graf was peaking in 1987, so when you talk peak Graf please include 1987 - the year she won a French final against Martina 8-6 in the 3rd, and couldnt win a set in either WImbledon or US Open final....

Calimero377
Apr 22nd, 2005, 11:41 PM
There you go again Cali, now you're saying peak Graf begins in 1988. Ive just gotten you to admit Graf was peaking in 1987, so when you talk peak Graf please include 1987 - the year she won a French final against Martina 8-6 in the 3rd, and couldnt win a set in either WImbledon or US Open final....


You must have had lobotomy ...

Very s.l.o.w.l.y for loserfan:

1) Talking of "peak 88/90 Graf" doesn't say that she may have been at her peak in 95 or 96 or 87.

2) Graf didn't play AO 87. But we were talking AO.

R&J
Apr 23rd, 2005, 01:26 AM
Graf beat Coetzer easily at FO 92, USO 94, Wimbledon 95 and in a tough 3-setter at USO 95.
She lost only at AO 97 and FO 97 when her knee was falling apart and Coetzer was top 10.

We are talking "peak".
And it is a fact that peak Seles struggled in early rounds in her winning slams while Graf regularily cruised when she was at her peak.
Peak Graf > peak Seles.
Case closed.

Monica only got a few years, to get to her peak. Dont most players have more than just a few years to build up to their best tennis? I dont think we got to see Monica Seles at her peak, imo. I think she was stabbed before then.

But if you are counting her first couple of years on the tour as her peak before the attack - yes, she was winning titles faster than anyone thats ever played the game.

R&J
Apr 23rd, 2005, 01:35 AM
But when she made it (95 & 96) Seles lost.

Seles never beat Graf on fast courts (grass, indoors, hard courts). Graf won all 7 matches.
So we all know who would have won if Graf had made the 91 & 92 USO finals ...

No we dont. You are not God and you can not predict that.

R&J
Apr 23rd, 2005, 01:39 AM
Exactly. To say otherwise would be ridiculous.




Of course peak Seles was better than slumping Graf.
No, it was no coincidence that Seles became #1 when Graf was slumping. Because without the Graf slump Seles never would have gained the top spot.
Graf's form started to drop with the start of her family scandal in spring of 1990. Sabatini beat her her like a drum in 90/91. Graf even thought about retirement in February 1991 - when she still was #1 ....
In 91/92 (Seles' peak years) Graf and Seles played 4 matches.
Graf won 3 of them.
Three of four.

Seles was not the problem.
Her dad, Sabatini and injuries were.
:sad:

Then why did it upset you so much that you felt like you had to stop her?

SM
Apr 23rd, 2005, 01:41 AM
Monica only got a few years, to get to her peak. Dont most players have more than just a few years to build up to their best tennis? I dont think we got to see Monica Seles at her peak, imo. I think she was stabbed before then.

But if you are counting her first couple of years on the tour as her peak before the attack - yes, she was winning titles faster than anyone thats ever played the game.
winning titles faster than anyone and was on her way to becoming the best in the game :awww: imho

SM
Apr 23rd, 2005, 01:46 AM
im sure we missed out on seeing monica at the best she could play, she was on the rise but there was facet of her game like her serve and even fitness that would have kept improving imo. look at the difference of monicas serve in the early 90s and late 90s for one thing!

her so called 'peak years' were he first few years onher tour when her game was far from fully developed. to make an analogy of we looked at NAV in her first few yrs im sure we would all agree the best was yet to come ;)

faboozadoo15
Apr 23rd, 2005, 04:04 AM
So we all know who would have won if Graf had made the 91 & 92 USO finals ...
great logic there. monica was able to beat the players who had just beaten steffi. yet you find a way to say graf for sure would have beaten monica? hm

Calimero377
Apr 23rd, 2005, 05:08 AM
im sure we missed out on seeing monica at the best she could play, she was on the rise but there was facet of her game like her serve and even fitness that would have kept improving imo. look at the difference of monicas serve in the early 90s and late 90s for one thing!

her so called 'peak years' were he first few years onher tour when her game was far from fully developed. to make an analogy of we looked at NAV in her first few yrs im sure we would all agree the best was yet to come ;)


Why do you think her fitness would have improved without The Stabbing?
We KNOW today that Seles was an overweight young woman as an 21/31-year-old (time of her return until today).

BTW, her winning percentage in the last 52 weeks (April 25th 1992 until April 25th 1993) before The Stabbing was 92.1 %. But in 91/92 it was 93.5 %. Even in 90/91 (April 25 until April 25) it was 92.5 %!


92.5 - 93.5 - 92.1.
Plateauing on a high level.
Calendar-year-wise she lost 6 matches in 90, 5 in 91 and 5 in 92.
That is not dominating.

Graf and Navi only lost 1, 2 or 3 matches a year at their peaks.

Calimero377
Apr 23rd, 2005, 05:17 AM
great logic there. monica was able to beat the players who had just beaten steffi. yet you find a way to say graf for sure would have beaten monica? hm


Graf was slumping in 91/92 as we all know.
IF she had been able to beat the players in earlier rounds (= sign of peak Graf) she would have beaten Seles.

You can't discuss it away:

1) Graf and Seles played 7 matches on fast courts (grass, indoors, hard courts). Seles won zero of them.

2) Seles could beat Graf twice on ReboundAce. Monica's best and Graf's worst surface.

3) On clay it's 3 each (with 2 of Graf's losses coming in EXACTLY those 4 weeks of maximum personal turmoil in May/June 1990. I wouldn't count them any more than her win against young Seles in 1989 at FO.
So we are left with 3 clay court matches between those two players.
Graf won Hamburg 1991 final.
Seles won FO 92 final.
Graf won FO 99 semifinal.
The FO 92 match was the closest of those three ....
And Graf has a considerably better winning percentage on clay than Seles.

Julia1968
Apr 23rd, 2005, 07:17 AM
Up until that point, how many of those wins of Graf over Seles (5-2) were during 1989 during Monica's first PRO year on the tour (just wondering)?

Well, I don't recall Graf, but I remember Chris Evert, in her next to last professional match before retirement drub Seles 6-0, 6-2 in the fourth round of the US Open in 1989.

SM
Apr 23rd, 2005, 07:26 AM
blah blah blah calimero! everyone knows monica was on her way to do better and greater things, that her game and her fitness would all have kept on improving.

you dont seem to recognise that monica being stabbed caused mental wounds more than anything that she probably never fully recovered from. but no , you wouldnt understand that cos u seem like a heartless piece of crap with absolutely no interpersonal intelligence

rada
Apr 23rd, 2005, 09:17 AM
im sure we missed out on seeing monica at the best she could play, she was on the rise but there was facet of her game like her serve and even fitness that would have kept improving imo. look at the difference of monicas serve in the early 90s and late 90s for one thing!

her so called 'peak years' were he first few years onher tour when her game was far from fully developed. to make an analogy of we looked at NAV in her first few yrs im sure we would all agree the best was yet to come ;)
yes i agree. monica was much fitter pre-stabbing than she has been since...but even pre stabbing she still had room to improve and im sure she would have been motivated to get fitter, stronger and further extend her dominance over graf

i agree with the serve thing steve, but imagine if she had all those extra yrs to work on her serve and all other technical aspects of her game

that guy stabbed her for a reason, obviously he knew monica was starting to get more and more dominant over graf....heck look at the aus open 93 final just months b4 he did it

Calimero377
Apr 23rd, 2005, 12:23 PM
blah blah blah calimero! everyone knows monica was on her way to do better and greater things, that her game and her fitness would all have kept on improving.

you dont seem to recognise that monica being stabbed caused mental wounds more than anything that she probably never fully recovered from. but no , you wouldnt understand that cos u seem like a heartless piece of crap with absolutely no interpersonal intelligence


SM: "Davenport blasted Graf off the court in the 1999 Wimbledon final, winning 70-67 on points-played. While it was Lucic's match to win or lose in the semis although Graf won the match with 104-87 on points-played."

And a guy like you really wants to tell me that Seles would have won more tournaments post-95 without The Stabbing .... ?

:haha: :haha: :haha:

Calimero377
Apr 23rd, 2005, 12:31 PM
...

that guy stabbed her for a reason, obviously he knew monica was starting to get more and more dominant over graf....heck look at the aus open 93 final just months b4 he did it


That guy was a LUNATIC.

Heck, look at the most important match Graf and Seles ever played, the WIMBLEDON 1992 final. Graf trounced Seles thoroughly with 6-2, 6-1.

Seles had a winning percentage of 92.1 only in the 12 months before The Stabbing. 12 months before that time frame (April 91 until April 92) Seles had a 93.5 winning percentage. There was no improvement.
The ultimate proof for that is that Seles never won a lot when she returned to the circuit in summer of 1993 when she was TWENTY-ONE years old.

You REALLY want to excuse 10 years of mediocrity with a 1-cm stab wound received at age 19 ..... ????? You are nuts ...

Face it:
Seles was a good player who had her 15 minutes of fame.
She had a lot of luck that Graf slumped badly due to personal problems in 90/92. And she had bad luck that she was stabbed.
But she should be more than content with her 9 slam wins.

She simply never would have been able to reach the same league as Court, King, Evert, Navi and Graf.

SM
Apr 23rd, 2005, 01:00 PM
monica took steffi the wolrd no.1 to 3 sets in the semis of her FIRST french open.

nuff said.

SM
Apr 23rd, 2005, 01:01 PM
i think monica was 15 yrs old at the time ;)

Geisha
Apr 23rd, 2005, 01:27 PM
Guys, this debate will never end. We don't know if Monica would have won fifteen more Grand Slams or if Graf would have won every tournament she played. There are too many factors involved.

What we can say is that Monica didn't ever fully reach her peak, in my opinion. Graf had five years on the professional WTA Tour to reach her peak- she began in 1982 and in 1987, she began her dominance. Monica had two years- she began in 1988 and began her dominance in 1990. Yes, Monica's year in 1991 was better than 1992 or whatever statistics say.

But, we definitely can say that Monica probably didn't reach her peak, quite yet. I mean, it is unfair to suggest otherwise. Look at it like this:

In 1983- Graf's first full year on tour, she compiled a 21-15 record. In following years:

84: 19-14
85: 40-13
86: 63-6
87: 74-6

In 1988, it was Monica's first year on tour and she compiled a 5-3 record. In following years:

89: 33-8
90: 54-6
91: 74-6
92: 70-5

Graf's first five years on tour had a combined record of: 217-50. The winning percentage for those years was .813. Seles' first five years on tour had a winning percentage and record of: .893 and 236-28. Monica's first years on tour were much better. Of course, we all know what happened after Monica's first five years and Steffi's- Monica got stabbed four months after and Steffi began her Grand Slam run.

If Steffi had gotten stabbed in 1988, right after winning the Australian Open, many would say that she could have won the Slam with how good she was playing. Then Martina Navratilova comes through and wins three more Slams. Nobody is going to argue that Navratilova was an incredible player, but there SHOULD be speculation that Graf could have defeated Navratilova on many occasions.

And, about what you were saying with those 6, 6, 5 losses in Seles' peak years. In 1985, when Graf was still a teenager, she lost to a 31 year-old Chris Evert 6 straight times!!! Then Steffi would win the next seven. So, I doubt Monica would have ever kept on losing 5, 6, 6 times a year if she had reached her peak.

Calimero377
Apr 23rd, 2005, 01:57 PM
<anniflava drivel mercyfully del>



Please compare first 5 years on the tour of Navratilova with Hingis next.

We KNOW today that Seles from April 92 until April 93 had a worse winning percentage than between April 91 and April 92 or than between April 90 and April 91. There was NOTHING to suggest that Seles would improve. But admittedly nobody know that in April 93.
But TODAY we KNOW that Seles didn't win a lot in the TEN years between her return in summer of 1995 and today.

That really is no rocket science, anniflavia.
Of course I can't PROVE that you are dead-wrong. You can say that you BELIEVE Seles would have improved without The Stabbing. But there are NO signs in reality.
I'm sorry ....

:sad:

Geisha
Apr 23rd, 2005, 02:22 PM
Please compare first 5 years on the tour of Navratilova with Hingis next.

We KNOW today that Seles from April 92 until April 93 had a worse winning percentage than between April 91 and April 92 or than between April 90 and April 91. There was NOTHING to suggest that Seles would improve. But admittedly nobody know that in April 93.
But TODAY we KNOW that Seles didn't win a lot in the TEN years between her return in summer of 1995 and today.

That really is no rocket science, anniflavia.
Of course I can't PROVE that you are dead-wrong. You can say that you BELIEVE Seles would have improved without The Stabbing. But there are NO signs in reality.
I'm sorry ....

:sad:

Once again, one of us has to prove that you are a dumbass.

Graf had a better winning percentage in 1987 than in 1988- does that mean she wasn't still improving or getting to her peak? No. One loss more or one less win doesn't mean anything.

Calimero377
Apr 23rd, 2005, 02:34 PM
Once again, one of us has to prove that you are a dumbass.

Graf had a better winning percentage in 1987 than in 1988- does that mean she wasn't still improving or getting to her peak? No. One loss more or one less win doesn't mean anything.


YOU want to prove something. That Seles would have improved in 93/94/95/96/97/98 ... without The Stabbing.
The facts are
1) that Seles was not improving in 91/93 and
2) that she had not much success in 95/96/97/98/99/00/01/02/03/04.

Rabid Selesians have a simple excuse for #2 - a 1-cm stab wound in April 1993, that needed exactly 1 stitch to close.

I hope you are not surprised that I have to :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: , are you?

SM
Apr 23rd, 2005, 02:53 PM
that one centimetre stab wound lept her out of the game for over 2 years, obviously it wasnt an insignificant event to monica personally and could you blame her for needing so long to recover (not just pyhsically?). why cant u see that it did have a huge impact on monica herself and ultimately her entire career????

Geisha
Apr 23rd, 2005, 03:03 PM
YOU want to prove something. That Seles would have improved in 93/94/95/96/97/98 ... without The Stabbing.
The facts are
1) that Seles was not improving in 91/93 and
2) that she had not much success in 95/96/97/98/99/00/01/02/03/04.

Rabid Selesians have a simple excuse for #2 - a 1-cm stab wound in April 1993, that needed exactly 1 stitch to close.

I hope you are not surprised that I have to :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: , are you?

You're a heartless bastard.

And...It isn't fair to say that Monica wouldn't have improved because Steffi wasn't improving from 1987-1988 but she kept on improving. If she had gotten stabbed in 1988, nobody would be saying that she would have been declining. Nobody. Monica wouldn't have declined.

1 cm stab wound- yeah, 1cm wide. If it had been like 2 millimeters deeper, she would have been paralyzed.

Calimero377
Apr 23rd, 2005, 03:59 PM
that one centimetre stab wound lept her out of the game for over 2 years, obviously it wasnt an insignificant event to monica personally and could you blame her for needing so long to recover (not just pyhsically?). why cant u see that it did have a huge impact on monica herself and ultimately her entire career????


As long as we don't allow Graf to slump for 2 years due to a family sex/blackmail scandal we can't allow Seles to go AWOL for 2 years because of a 1-cm stab wound.

faboozadoo15
Apr 23rd, 2005, 04:11 PM
Seles had a winning percentage of 92.1 only in the 12 months before The Stabbing. 12 months before that time frame (April 91 until April 92) Seles had a 93.5 winning percentage. There was no improvement.

are you seriously going to use one percentage point of matches won/lost to show that monica was not imporving? if you just looked at her game, you would see that's not true. she was stronger and serving much much better in 93. one percentage point could be reflected in one more win with the same amount of losses.... and let's not forget that monica was about to play the clay season, where she was the queen, and her percentage would have unoubtedly risen that all important one percentage point.

Calimero377
Apr 23rd, 2005, 04:12 PM
You're a heartless bastard.

And...It isn't fair to say that Monica wouldn't have improved because Steffi wasn't improving from 1987-1988 but she kept on improving. If she had gotten stabbed in 1988, nobody would be saying that she would have been declining. Nobody. Monica wouldn't have declined.

1 cm stab wound- yeah, 1cm wide. If it had been like 2 millimeters deeper, she would have been paralyzed.

Not true. EVEN Seles writes in her book ONLY that ONE of the doctors said if the knife had struck a little bit more to the left a spinal paralysis COULD have been the consequence. But IIRC, Seles didn't allow her medical records to be introduced in the Parche trial (I'm not QUITE sure whether she ONLY held back her psychological medical records that could have proven the alleged psychological impact of the attack). The D.A. was dismayed by the poor cooperation of the Seles clan in that trial.

You are right with Graf having been stabbed in spring of 1988.
Difference to the Seles case is we know
1) that Graf went on to win the Golden Grand Slam and 22 slams in total
2) that Seles didn't win a lot when she returned to the circuit with 21 years
3) that Graf improved in 93-96
4) that Graf doubtless is far better athlete than Seles

Calimero377
Apr 23rd, 2005, 04:48 PM
are you seriously going to use one percentage point of matches won/lost to show that monica was not imporving? if you just looked at her game, you would see that's not true. she was stronger and serving much much better in 93. one percentage point could be reflected in one more win with the same amount of losses.... and let's not forget that monica was about to play the clay season, where she was the queen, and her percentage would have unoubtedly risen that all important one percentage point.


From January 1st until 27th April 1992 (week before Hamburg 1992) Monica Seles won 26 of 27 matches losing only 4 sets.
She lost 124 games in 58 sets (average 2.1 games)

From January 1st until April 26th 1993 (week before Hamburg 1993) Monica Seles won 15 of 16 matches losing 6 sets.
She lost 94 games in 39 sets (average 2.4 games)

Where is the improvement?
Your "gut feeling" again?

Seles a clay queen?
She won 5 of 8 clay tournaments (62.5 %) but 16 of 25 non-clay tournaments (64 %) in 91/93.

"Gut feeling" again .... ?



Stop embarrassing yourself ....
:lol:

bandabou
Apr 23rd, 2005, 05:13 PM
That guy was a LUNATIC.

Heck, look at the most important match Graf and Seles ever played, the WIMBLEDON 1992 final. Graf trounced Seles thoroughly with 6-2, 6-1.

Seems like he wasn't the only one who is a lunatic.

I know somebody who insists that despite the fact Enna lost the biggest match of her life during her peak 6-3 6-2 to Serena at wimbledon SF, that Enna is better and greater than Serena.

Calimero377
Apr 23rd, 2005, 05:14 PM
Seems like he wasn't the only one who is a lunatic.

I know somebody who insists that despite the fact Enna lost the biggest match of her life during her peak 6-3 6-2 to Serena at wimbledon SF, that Enna is better and greater than Serena.


Greater than Serena?
I know no such fool.

faboozadoo15
Apr 23rd, 2005, 05:20 PM
From January 1st until 27th April 1992 (week before Hamburg 1992) Monica Seles won 26 of 27 matches losing only 4 sets.
She lost 124 games in 58 sets (average 2.1 games)

From January 1st until April 26th 1993 (week before Hamburg 1993) Monica Seles won 15 of 16 matches losing 6 sets.
She lost 94 games in 39 sets (average 2.4 games)

Where is the improvement?
Your "gut feeling" again?

Seles a clay queen?
She won 5 of 8 clay tournaments (62.5 %) but 16 of 25 non-clay tournaments (64 %) in 91/93.

"Gut feeling" again .... ?



Stop embarrassing yourself ....
:lol:
do you realize how insane this is? you're saying winning 15/16 as if it's noweher near as good as 26/27... when in reality monica would hve been enormously favored to win in germany, rome, and in paris. she could have easily gotten another win steak started and probably would have.

lmao at how you make winning a set 6-2.4 or winning a set 6-2.1 a huge difference.

bandabou
Apr 23rd, 2005, 05:28 PM
Greater than Serena?
I know no such fool.

His name is Calimero..

Calimero377
Apr 23rd, 2005, 05:46 PM
do you realize how insane this is? you're saying winning 15/16 as if it's noweher near as good as 26/27... when in reality monica would hve been enormously favored to win in germany, rome, and in paris. she could have easily gotten another win steak started and probably would have.

lmao at how you make winning a set 6-2.4 or winning a set 6-2.1 a huge difference.


The question is:
Is fabbozaddo so stupid or is he only faking?

Of course the difference is not "huge".
But when some posters gloat how "Monica improved and improved" than it is funny as hell when you can produce stats that show even a SLIGHT decline.

It is always the same here in GM: People blab about their gut feelings and go berserk when they are proven wrong by numbers, facts and stats.


NOTHING indicated that Seles would improve post-93.
Her results post-95 are almost a 100% proof that she wouldn't have.
But "The Stabbing" is so convenient - the ultimate mega-excuse for a whole 10 years without success. Sorry, I can only make fun of that ... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Calimero377
Apr 23rd, 2005, 05:50 PM
His name is Calimero..


What about a quote, bandyliar ... ?

R&J
Apr 23rd, 2005, 06:14 PM
Well, I don't recall Graf, but I remember Chris Evert, in her next to last professional match before retirement drub Seles 6-0, 6-2 in the fourth round of the US Open in 1989.

Thats exactly my point, being that it was Monica's first year as a professional tennis player.

bandabou
Apr 23rd, 2005, 06:18 PM
Yet Cali....can come out and say on gut feeling that enna's greater than Serena...and her peak too.

faboozadoo15
Apr 23rd, 2005, 07:41 PM
like i said, all you had to do was look at monica's game in 1993 to see that she had again improved. her serve was much better, her defense had gone up a notch too, and her mastery and control of points was also superior. just because she was 15/16 (one third set tiebreak loss to nav) doesn't mean that she was in decline. overall, in 93, she was playing better than in 92. that doesn't necessaruly mean that she should be averaging 6-1 sets instead of 6-2 sets.

Calimero377
Apr 23rd, 2005, 07:59 PM
like i said, all you had to do was look at monica's game in 1993 to see that she had again improved. her serve was much better, her defense had gone up a notch too, and her mastery and control of points was also superior. just because she was 15/16 (one third set tiebreak loss to nav) doesn't mean that she was in decline. overall, in 93, she was playing better than in 92. that doesn't necessaruly mean that she should be averaging 6-1 sets instead of 6-2 sets.


What about

"Seles lost only 4 sets in 27 matches and 2.1 games each set in 1992 but 6 sets in only 16 matches and 2.4 games each set in 1993."

you didn't understand?


Maybe she was not in "decline" but she most certainly was not "improving".
OK, maybe in your parallel universe.


When everybody starts with his/her gut feeling here we can stop any serious discussions and concentrate on "Oh, Maria has a new outfit!" or "Who is hotter, Dokic or Hantuchova?" threads again. :)

bandabou
Apr 23rd, 2005, 08:05 PM
Talking about close calls....Graf was at peak form in 95 but she too had close calls even then....

Calimero377
Apr 23rd, 2005, 08:09 PM
Talking about close calls....Graf was at peak form in 95 but she too had close calls even then....


Who talked about "close calls"?

Perhaps you should learn to quote the post you are referring to.

:wavey:

R&J
Apr 23rd, 2005, 08:17 PM
Monica was almost duplicating each year.

She won 10 titles in 1991 (3 GS).
10 titles in 1992 (3 GS).
1993 she started off winning the Australian again as she had the past 2 years....seems to me that she was right on track as she had the previous years ;)

Not even you Cali, can take that away from her.

bandabou
Apr 23rd, 2005, 08:32 PM
You said Monica had close calls during her wins in ' 92-' 93, so it was no sure thing that she would keep winning....or don't you remember saying that either?

Just like you want to act like you never said Enna is greater than Serena?

Calimero377
Apr 23rd, 2005, 08:50 PM
Monica was almost duplicating each year.

She won 10 titles in 1991 (3 GS).
10 titles in 1992 (3 GS).
1993 she started off winning the Australian again as she had the past 2 years....seems to me that she was right on track as she had the previous years ;)

Not even you Cali, can take that away from her.


Seles would have been a threat to Graf at FO, considering that she had won 1 of 2 matches against Steffi on clay when being #1.
Wimbledon - we can forget that for Seles as she only made the semis or better once in her 16-year-long career.
At USO 93 Seles would have had to beat Graf on fast hard-courts which she never did during her long career.


9-22 slams is a fair count. Considering that Seles is 5-10 H2H against Steffi.
We both should not take anything away from Graf and Seles ....

:wavey:


BTW, your Seles website is nice.
Although everything seems a little bit obsessive to me .... ;)

Calimero377
Apr 23rd, 2005, 09:15 PM
You said Monica had close calls during her wins in ' 92-' 93, so it was no sure thing that she would keep winning....or don't you remember saying that either?


<remaining bandybabble mercyfully del>




Monica had many close calls in 90/93 on her way to the finals when she won her 8 slams.
6-4 in 3rd against Kelesi and 7-5 in 3rd against Manuela Maleeva at FO 90.
9-7 in 3rd against MJ Fernandez (fending off mp) at AO 91.
7-6 in 3rd against Capriati at USO 91 (JenCap was WTA #6 only).
6-4 in 3rd against Kijimuta at FO 92.
And losing sets to Zardo, Cecchini, Meshki types.
And one set to Sabby at FO 92.

Peak Seles lost 9 sets before finals in 8 successful slams.

Steffi lost only one set before the finals in her 6 winning slams in 95/96.
She didn't lose a set before finals in 1988.
In 1989 she lost only one set in her 3 successful slams that year (against #3 Sabby at USO).

Peak Graf lost 2 sets before finals in 13 successful slams.

Graf was definitely far more dominating those slams during her 4 best years.
Nevertheless she didn't win much in 90/91 or 97/98 (the years after those successful slam years). What makes you think Seles would have been better in 93/95?

Monirena Wiles
Apr 23rd, 2005, 09:20 PM
You would have to be ALL-KNOWING to suggest that Seles had peaked before being stabbed or would not have continued to improve if the stabbing never occured, there's nothing to suggest otherwise. And if you can even make that suggestion then you have to be open enough to validate the opposite as at least just as likely to occur. I can at least say that we don't know, even though it is more likely that Seles would have continued along her winning path. Even if Graf was slumping, the fact the someone younger, and maybe more talented is stealing your thunder is enough pressure to add to her stress. It's true that Monica didn't have to face Steffi too many times to win her slams, but who's to say that Steffi didn't play as well because Monica was playing really good, maybe that caused Steffi additional stress which affected her play. Monica would routinely beat Gaby, and maybe when Steffi played Gaby that caused her to want to beat Gaby that much more, which turned out to have a bad psychological effect on Steffi. For every story or theor you want to make up about tax problems and daddy problems stressing Steffi out, there's know way to know if the real stress didn't come from Monica dominating the rest of the tour.

bandabou
Apr 23rd, 2005, 09:30 PM
Monica had many close calls in 90/93 on her way to the finals when she won her 8 slams.
6-4 in 3rd against Kelesi and 7-5 in 3rd against Manuela Maleeva at FO 90.
9-7 in 3rd against MJ Fernandez (fending off mp) at AO 91.
7-6 in 3rd against Capriati at USO 91 (JenCap was WTA #6 only).
6-4 in 3rd against Kijimuta at FO 92.
And losing sets to Zardo, Cecchini, Meshki types.
And one set to Sabby at FO 92.

Peak Seles lost 9 sets before finals in 8 successful slams.

Steffi lost only one set before the finals in her 6 winning slams in 95/96.
She didn't lose a set before finals in 1988.
In 1989 she lost only one set in her 3 successful slams that year (against #3 Sabby at USO).

Peak Graf lost 2 sets before finals in 13 successful slams.

Graf was definitely far more dominating those slams during her 4 best years.
Nevertheless she didn't win much in 90/91 or 97/98 (the years after those successful slam years). What makes you think Seles would have been better in 93/95?

But her sets lost at the FINALS and other close calls wasn't that high compared to graf..

bandybrabble huh? We all know that you said this...so don't play the fool.

Calimero377
Apr 23rd, 2005, 09:41 PM
You would have to be ALL-KNOWING to suggest that Seles had peaked before being stabbed or would not have continued to improve if the stabbing never occured, there's nothing to suggest otherwise. And if you can even make that suggestion then you have to be open enough to validate the opposite as at least just as likely to occur. I can at least say that we don't know, even though it is more likely that Seles would have continued along her winning path. Even if Graf was slumping, the fact the someone younger, and maybe more talented is stealing your thunder is enough pressure to add to her stress. It's true that Monica didn't have to face Steffi too many times to win her slams, but who's to say that Steffi didn't play as well because Monica was playing really good, maybe that caused Steffi additional stress which affected her play. Monica would routinely beat Gaby, and maybe when Steffi played Gaby that caused her to want to beat Gaby that much more, which turned out to have a bad psychological effect on Steffi. For every story or theor you want to make up about tax problems and daddy problems stressing Steffi out, there's know way to know if the real stress didn't come from Monica dominating the rest of the tour.

We don't know. Of course we don't.
We only can speculate.
Admittedly I tend to believe Graf herself who has repeatedly said how the 1990/91 scandal affected her. Don't forget that she almost retired in winter of 1991 even before Seles took over as #1.

Why don't I think Seles would have continued to win 3 slams each year post-93?

1) Seles had plateaued in 92/93 (on a high level of course). The stats show that her results weren't improving.
2) Seles visibly gained weight.
3) There are many players who had a lot of success in younger years but struggled mightily in later years (Austin, Jaeger, Sabatini, Hingis, Venus, even Graf herself).
4) Winning 3 consecutive FOs doesn't mean a lot. Only one of four players after WW2 managed to win a 4th consecutive title in one of the slams.
5) Graf improved in 93/96, making 12 of 14 slam finals again (while reaching only 4 of 9 from summer 90 until end of 92).
6) But the most important hint that Seles would not have had the same great success in 93, 94, 95 is that she didn't have much success after her return in 95. After-effects of The Stabbing can't explain that away.
If Seles never had returned you might have a case, my arguments 1)-5) notwithstanding.
But argument 6) clinches it for me:
Most probably Seles would not have won tons of slams even without The Stabbing.

Calimero377
Apr 23rd, 2005, 09:50 PM
But her sets lost at the FINALS and other close calls wasn't that high compared to graf..

bandybrabble huh? We all know that you said this...so don't play the fool.


In her 22 winning slam tournaments Graf only lost 12 sets before the finals.
But Seles lost 10 sets before the finals in her 9 successful slams.

spencercarlos
Apr 23rd, 2005, 09:58 PM
Seles would have been a threat to Graf at FO, considering that she had won 1 of 2 matches against Steffi on clay when being #1.
Wimbledon - we can forget that for Seles as she only made the semis or better once in her 16-year-long career.
At USO 93 Seles would have had to beat Graf on fast hard-courts which she never did during her long career.


9-22 slams is a fair count. Considering that Seles is 5-10 H2H against Steffi.
We both should not take anything away from Graf and Seles ....

:wavey:


BTW, your Seles website is nice.
Although everything seems a little bit obsessive to me .... ;)
By Wimbledon 93 Seles had already a 16 year old career interesting :lol:
Your arguments are stupid as usual.
Seles was the better player, winning more important events than Graf since 1990, that was why she was stabbed.
If Steffi was disturbed by Daddy`s scandal for 3 years (1990-1993), something that was done by her parent, not her, Monica could have and still is being affected by the stabbing during a tennis match in germany. Something that really happened to her, not her parents.
Anyway Cal live with that Seles > Graf in most important events won from 1990- april 1993.
:wavey:

Calimero377
Apr 23rd, 2005, 10:10 PM
...
Anyway Cal live with that Seles > Graf in most important events won from 1990- april 1993.
:wavey:

Grafans live with 22-9 slams, 7-0 Wimbledons and 10-5 H2H vs. Seles.
And with 2-0 Wimbledons even in Seles' two most successful years (91/92).
And of course with a fairy-tale ending for Graf in 1999, winning FO by beating the #2, #3 and #1 player.

:angel:

bandabou
Apr 23rd, 2005, 10:49 PM
yeah...the numbers speak in Graf's favour...you want to people to accept that.

Then you turn around and say that Enna is better than Serena and greater as well, while the stats completely tell another story.

Why's that?

spencercarlos
Apr 24th, 2005, 12:11 AM
Grafans live with 22-9 slams, 7-0 Wimbledons and 10-5 H2H vs. Seles.
And with 2-0 Wimbledons even in Seles' two most successful years (91/92).
And of course with a fairy-tale ending for Graf in 1999, winning FO by beating the #2, #3 and #1 player.

:angel:
That is indeed great by Graf, i loved the way her career ended too :p

Veritas
Apr 24th, 2005, 12:37 AM
Monica d Steffi French 92 - best final ever?

Of course!

Julia1968
Apr 24th, 2005, 12:46 AM
That is indeed great by Graf, i loved the way her career ended too :p

It was a case in which the overly confident #1 Hingis had condescending remarks towards Graf during Graf's comeback and Graf reduced Hingis to tears on one of the largest stages in tennis. Hingis had just won the Australian Open, but never won a Grand Slam singles after Graf dismantled her at the French.

Hingis' meltdown completely destroyed her career at the majors in singles.

As stated in another participants signature, it was one of the biggest parting shots in the history of tennis.

R&J
Apr 24th, 2005, 02:18 AM
http://www.monicaselessite.com/photogalleries/photogallery22/PG22_12.jpg

Steffica Greles
Apr 24th, 2005, 12:33 PM
Czechfan: I think you just about nailed him there - well done!! :)

Calimero's denial of Monica Seles is the tennis equivalent of holocaust denial, while he's as selective with facts as Goebbels.

I find his posts simply amazing to read. He makes no end of excuses for the cult figure in this life - Steffi Graf - and yet somehow the stabbing of somebody at the peak of their game is not a valid excuse?

He has the emotional understanding of a sub-human species, while he seems to think Steffi was superhuman. The fact is, there were times when Graf was outplayed by Seles, Sanchez-Vicario, Navratilova, Novotna and Sabatini. She had weaknesses. Those with the power to attack her forehand were invariably successful. Her take-back was late, so a hard-hit shot to her forehand (or even Aranxta's sliceforehand on occasions) could induce errors from a shot that could at times be a liability. My point is NOT that Graf's forehand was a poor shot (it was, on balance, the greatest ever), it's that she had her frailties like any other player.

Despite that, Graf is, over all, the greatest player of all time. I get equally irritated by these Seles fans who think 7 of her last 8 would have become 14 of 16, and 28 of 32. For Seles to have been even close to Graf she would have had to overcome something that Graf was never faced with - a psychological trauma (it's okay, Calimero - you won't understand what I mean by that, so read on).

That's not fair, but life's not fair - and Monica knows that she was lucky to survive. There's more to life than tennis. So Steffi had the numbers and all of the triumphs, and she's arguably the greatest ever.

True, some people may have dealt with the trauma better than Monica and returned to the court within 9 months, but then, some players get distracted by all kinds of other things. Problems are all relative to our insecurities and other things that matter to us. The point is that Seles didn't create the problem, and showed no sign of distractions whatsoever before that event. In fact, Seles was, along with Maureen Connolly, the most intense competitor ever in women's tennis. If it wasn't Seles' relentless drives that had Steffi, then it was most certainly her steel will. The stabbing should never have happened, so for Calimero to paint it as irrelevant really shows what kind of human being he must be.

When we see how athletic injuries ruin the careers of today's players so often, it shows just how great Seles was to comeback at 70-80% of her best - I don't think anybody else could have done that.

And finally, on the subject of Monica Seles (because this really is a waste of time), when Steffi's so called "slump" began, it was when Monica beat her in Berlin. It was confirmed when Seles then beat her a month later in Paris.

My point is that slumps begin usually when a player's confidence is undermined. Graf was used to dominating through 87? 88 and 89. Nobody really came close to her if she raised her level. Then suddenly a skinny Yugoslav was pounding winners from all over the court like nobody before her.
Seles was the first (and, I believe, only) player never to be intimidated by the aura Graf brought to the court.

That's what undermined Graf's confidence. Just as Hingis' confidence was undermined by beatings from more powerful players (who she'd handled in 1997). Her game became more about counterpunching and she stopped taking the ball as early. Look at the Williams' these days. They're still great players, but there's something lacking because they know the other girls aren't scared of them any longer.

It was the same in 1987 and 88. Navratilova slumped to defeats she wouldn't normally have done because she was aware she was no longer the best. The evidence of this is her losses to Evert in those years, who she would normally have beaten on non-clay surfaces.

So the argument that Graf was in a slump doesn't cut ice. She was in a slump because she was aware that she could be matched shot-for-shot from the baseline for the first time. Her 66-match winning streak, non-coincidentally, was snapped by the player who also sparked her slump.

R&J
Apr 24th, 2005, 01:47 PM
LOL, Cali gave me a bad rep for posting the photo of Monica with the trophy. I guess seeing Monica hold the trophy hurt him so bad that he had to give me a bad rep because of it.

Steffica Greles
Apr 24th, 2005, 02:01 PM
R&J: LOL! I've said before that I think he's actually Gunther Parche. I mean, why not?! He's out there somewhere. Surely he must use the internet? I'm joking of course. (But...).

Actually, really Calimero's disacknowledgment of Seles should be taken as an appraisal. He has SOME regard for Sanchez-V, Sabatini, Novotna -- players Graf beat more often that not. But, strangely enough, he has a problem with Seles.

Why would that be? ;)

R&J
Apr 24th, 2005, 03:28 PM
R&J: LOL! I've said before that I think he's actually Gunther Parche. I mean, why not?! He's out there somewhere. Surely he must use the internet? I'm joking of course. (But...).

Actually, really Calimero's disacknowledgment of Seles should be taken as an appraisal. He has SOME regard for Sanchez-V, Sabatini, Novotna -- players Graf beat more often that not. But, strangely enough, he has a problem with Seles.

Why would that be? ;)

Yep.

bandabou
Apr 24th, 2005, 03:38 PM
Czechfan: I think you just about nailed him there - well done!! :)

Calimero's denial of Monica Seles is the tennis equivalent of holocaust denial, while he's as selective with facts as Goebbels.

I find his posts simply amazing to read. He makes no end of excuses for the cult figure in this life - Steffi Graf - and yet somehow the stabbing of somebody at the peak of their game is not a valid excuse?

He has the emotional understanding of a sub-human species, while he seems to think Steffi was superhuman. The fact is, there were times when Graf was outplayed by Seles, Sanchez-Vicario, Navratilova, Novotna and Sabatini. She had weaknesses. Those with the power to attack her forehand were invariably successful. Her take-back was late, so a hard-hit shot to her forehand (or even Aranxta's sliceforehand on occasions) could induce errors from a shot that could at times be a liability. My point is NOT that Graf's forehand was a poor shot (it was, on balance, the greatest ever), it's that she had her frailties like any other player.

Despite that, Graf is, over all, the greatest player of all time. I get equally irritated by these Seles fans who think 7 of her last 8 would have become 14 of 16, and 28 of 32. For Seles to have been even close to Graf she would have had to overcome something that Graf was never faced with - a psychological trauma (it's okay, Calimero - you won't understand what I mean by that, so read on).

That's not fair, but life's not fair - and Monica knows that she was lucky to survive. There's more to life than tennis. So Steffi had the numbers and all of the triumphs, and she's arguably the greatest ever.

True, some people may have dealt with the trauma better than Monica and returned to the court within 9 months, but then, some players get distracted by all kinds of other things. Problems are all relative to our insecurities and other things that matter to us. The point is that Seles didn't create the problem, and showed no sign of distractions whatsoever before that event. In fact, Seles was, along with Maureen Connolly, the most intense competitor ever in women's tennis. If it wasn't Seles' relentless drives that had Steffi, then it was most certainly her steel will. The stabbing should never have happened, so for Calimero to paint it as irrelevant really shows what kind of human being he must be.

When we see how athletic injuries ruin the careers of today's players so often, it shows just how great Seles was to comeback at 70-80% of her best - I don't think anybody else could have done that.

And finally, on the subject of Monica Seles (because this really is a waste of time), when Steffi's so called "slump" began, it was when Monica beat her in Berlin. It was confirmed when Seles then beat her a month later in Paris.

My point is that slumps begin usually when a player's confidence is undermined. Graf was used to dominating through 87? 88 and 89. Nobody really came close to her if she raised her level. Then suddenly a skinny Yugoslav was pounding winners from all over the court like nobody before her.
Seles was the first (and, I believe, only) player never to be intimidated by the aura Graf brought to the court.

That's what undermined Graf's confidence. Just as Hingis' confidence was undermined by beatings from more powerful players (who she'd handled in 1997). Her game became more about counterpunching and she stopped taking the ball as early. Look at the Williams' these days. They're still great players, but there's something lacking because they know the other girls aren't scared of them any longer.

It was the same in 1987 and 88. Navratilova slumped to defeats she wouldn't normally have done because she was aware she was no longer the best. The evidence of this is her losses to Evert in those years, who she would normally have beaten on non-clay surfaces.

So the argument that Graf was in a slump doesn't cut ice. She was in a slump because she was aware that she could be matched shot-for-shot from the baseline for the first time. Her 66-match winning streak, non-coincidentally, was snapped by the player who also sparked her slump.

Brilliant post....this is more like it. Cali...you really should take notice.

Calimero377
Apr 24th, 2005, 06:23 PM
R&J: LOL! I've said before that I think he's actually Gunther Parche. I mean, why not?! He's out there somewhere. Surely he must use the internet? I'm joking of course. (But...).

Actually, really Calimero's disacknowledgment of Seles should be taken as an appraisal. He has SOME regard for Sanchez-V, Sabatini, Novotna -- players Graf beat more often that not. But, strangely enough, he has a problem with Seles.

Why would that be? ;)


Parche was a lunatic because he thought Graf wouldn't regain the #1 spot without his help. I on the other hand have proven convincingly time and again that Graf would have been #1 again anyway in 1993. So I can't be G. Parche.

I don't "disacknowledge" Seles.
I repeatedly have said that she was the second best player of the 90ies and Graf's second-best opponent ever (behind Navi). And I have admitted that she most probably would have won some slams more without The Stabbing (eg. FO 94, AO 95), maybe even at the expense of Graf (FO 95?).

But of course I make fun of fanatical Selesians when they suggest that Seles was "dominating" Graf in 91/93 :lol:, that "she was on her way to be the greatest-ever" :lol: :lol: or that her failures post-95 can be explained and excused by a stabbing years ago.

:wavey:

Calimero377
Apr 24th, 2005, 06:48 PM
....
Calimero's denial of Monica Seles is the tennis equivalent of holocaust denial, while he's as selective with facts as Goebbels. ....


"Goebbels"? That will interest the admins ....

But mocking the fate of 6 million jews is even more distasteful.



....

I find his posts simply amazing to read. He makes no end of excuses for the cult figure in this life - Steffi Graf - and yet somehow the stabbing of somebody at the peak of their game is not a valid excuse?
...


Graf is not the cult figure in my life.
Reagan is.


I don't make excuses for Graf's slump and injuries.
But if we don't allow Graf to slump in 90/91 during the family/blackmail scandal can we allow Seles to go AWOL for 2 years and to fail from 1995 until today?
A stabbing is not the equivalent of a family/blackmail scandal and I never said so. But a 2-year slump is no equivalent of a 2-year break and 10 years of failure.


....
My point is NOT that Graf's forehand was a poor shot (it was, on balance, the greatest ever), it's that she had her frailties like any other player.

Despite that, Graf is, over all, the greatest player of all time. I get equally irritated by these Seles fans who think 7 of her last 8 would have become 14 of 16, and 28 of 32. ....

True, some people may have dealt with the trauma better than Monica and returned to the court within 9 months, but then, some players get distracted by all kinds of other things. .... In fact, Seles was, along with Maureen Connolly, the most intense competitor ever in women's tennis. ...

I don't think so.
Maybe you remember Connolly, I don't.
Seles was great fighter as a teen, as teens often are. It's about winning when the chips are down, when your personal life is in turmoil, when you are haunted by injuries. Graf did that, Seles not.


....
The stabbing should never have happened, so for Calimero to paint it as irrelevant really shows what kind of human being he must be.
....

I never painted it as irrelevant.
You are simple a liar.


....
And finally, on the subject of Monica Seles (because this really is a waste of time), when Steffi's so called "slump" began, it was when Monica beat her in Berlin. It was confirmed when Seles then beat her a month later in Paris.

My point is that slumps begin usually when a player's confidence is undermined. ...

That slump was undermined by the family/blackmail scandal that started 3 days before the Berlin final. The Graf family had about 30 title stories in "Bild" (6-million-circulation tabloid) in 90/91 with nasty stories about her parents' sex life. Maybe Steffi was a fragile flower that she was affected by it.
I'm sure that a mentally superior player like Seles would have laughed about something like that ....

Seles was in great form in those weeks. But a Graf in the mental shape of 88/89 would have prevailed. In summer of 90 Graf was a complete head-case, even losing to good old Garrison in Wimbledon. No wonder that Seles could beat her twice on clay.

We must not forget that after those two losses against Seles within 4 weeks (just after the Graf scandal exploded in 90) Graf beat Seles in 3 of 5 matches pre-stabbing. She was not afraid of Seles, she was afraid of Sabatini maybe.



Seles Stabbing = Holocaust, yeah - your comparison speaks volumes about your warped mind-set.
Unbelievable ....

bandabou
Apr 24th, 2005, 06:59 PM
blah blah cali....you said 1 cm stab....or didn't you say that?

R&J
Apr 24th, 2005, 08:10 PM
I don't make excuses for Graf's slump and injuries..

:lol: blah blah blah :lol:

Philbo
Apr 25th, 2005, 04:18 AM
Originally Posted by Calimero377
I don't make excuses for Graf's slump and injuries..


Oh please.. what bullshit..

Why did Peak Graf lose the 1987 US Open final to Navratilova?

DA FOREHAND
Apr 25th, 2005, 02:46 PM
"And finally, on the subject of Monica Seles (because this really is a waste of time), when Steffi's so called "slump" began, it was when Monica beat her in Berlin. It was confirmed when Seles then beat her a month later in Paris.

My point is that slumps begin usually when a player's confidence is undermined. Graf was used to dominating through 87? 88 and 89. Nobody really came close to her if she raised her level. Then suddenly a skinny Yugoslav was pounding winners from all over the court like nobody before her.
Seles was the first (and, I believe, only) player never to be intimidated by the aura Graf brought to the court. "

That would be a great arguement, if Seles lead the h2h, but as we all know and many more seem to try and forget...that wasn't the case at all, in fact Steffi had more problems w/Gabby than Monica.

Veritas
Apr 25th, 2005, 03:12 PM
That would be a great arguement, if Seles lead the h2h, but as we all know and many more seem to try and forget...that wasn't the case at all, in fact Steffi had more problems w/Gabby than Monica.

So? That doesn't change the fact that Monica's success from 1990-1993 had a significant impact in denting Graf's dominance in the late 80s. The H2H is telling, but how much significance does it have? Just because Steffi had more problems with Gabriela than Monica doesn't mean one is a better rival than the other. For one, the Graf-Sabatini rivalry consisted of 40 meetings, while Graf-Seles garnered only 15. A difference of 25 matches is pretty big. And anyway, would it be fair if I took Monica's H2H against Gabatini (11-3) as an example of her superiority over Graf (29-11)?

For the record, from 1985-1993, Graf lead 26-11 against Sabatini. That's a 70.27% winning percentage.

From 1989-1993, Graf lead 6-4 against Monica, which equals to a 60% winning percentage.

70.27% against 60%. Which rivalry did you say Steffi had more difficulty with?

And if you want, we'll add in the total H2H Graf had against both players.

29-11 against Sabatini, and 10-5 against Seles. That's a 72.5% and 66.67% winning percentage respectively.

Yep. Steffi sure had "more problems" against Gabriela than Monica.

DA FOREHAND
Apr 25th, 2005, 03:16 PM
We aren't discussing the time period before Monica came onto the scene...we are discussing the years Monica was on top, and in that time period Graf had more problems w/Gabby than Monica.

Veritas
Apr 25th, 2005, 03:30 PM
We aren't discussing the time period before Monica came onto the scene...we are discussing the years Monica was on top, and in that time period Graf had more problems w/Gabby than Monica.

Very well. The years that Monica "was on top" is between 1990-1993. During that period, the H2H between her and Steffi was 4-3. That's a 57.14% winning percentage for Monica.

In that same period, the H2H between Gabriela and Steffi was 8-8. That's a 50% winning percentage for both players.

Again, how did Steffi have "more problems" with Gabriela than Monica?

Calimero377
Apr 25th, 2005, 06:06 PM
Oh please.. what bullshit..

Why did Peak Graf lose the 1987 US Open final to Navratilova?


Because Navi made more points, games and sets.
And because Graf played bad.
Why could that have been?
Well, she was ill. A severe cold with fever (38.5 degree Celsius).
A fact and no excuse.

Calimero377
Apr 25th, 2005, 06:14 PM
Very well. The years that Monica "was on top" is between 1990-1993. During that period, the H2H between her and Steffi was 4-3. That's a 57.14% winning percentage for Monica.

In that same period, the H2H between Gabriela and Steffi was 8-8. That's a 50% winning percentage for both players.

Again, how did Steffi have "more problems" with Gabriela than Monica?


Monica was not on top in 1990. Graf was clear #1 at year's end.
She was in 91/92. In that time she was 1-3 H2H against Graf. Sabby was 6-2 against Graf in those years. If we add 1993 (until Stabbing) Seles is 2-3 and Sabby 6-4.

From November 90 until spring 92 (deepest slump time) Graf was 2-0 vs. Seles but 1-7 vs. Sabby.

SM
Apr 25th, 2005, 11:42 PM
Because Navi made more points, games and sets.
And because Graf played bad.
Why could that have been?
Well, she was ill. A severe cold with fever (38.5 degree Celsius).
A fact and no excuse.
I dont care what condition a player is in when the play a match if they can manage to get out there and play the whole match, then i dont wanna here excuses. Nav. playedreally well and we cant detract from her win bc of her opponent being sick (but obviously well enuf to play the match).:rolleyes:

SM
Apr 25th, 2005, 11:45 PM
FACT: Steffi played the match. She obviously would not play if she thought she was too sick to play.
EXCUSE: She was sick.

Philbo
Apr 25th, 2005, 11:55 PM
Because Navi made more points, games and sets.
And because Graf played bad.
Why could that have been?
Well, she was ill. A severe cold with fever (38.5 degree Celsius).
A fact and no excuse.

Posted previously by Calimero:

Of course Graf was at her peak in 1987 as well.
She had a 75-2 win/loss record, her 2nd-best ever.
At year's end she had a 49-pts. lead in the WTA rankings (Seles had a bigger lead only for a few months in 1991/92).
Steffi's loss against Navi at USO was caused by having flu (38.5 C fever). At Wimbledon Navi was more experienced still. But Graf destroyed Navi & Evert back-to-back at Key Biscayne (6-3, 6-2 & 6-1, 6-2).

It is debatable whether she was even better in 88/89 or 95/96, but 87 is definitely among Graf's 5 best seasons ever.


You cant have it both ways loser. Steffi's loss at USO was NOT caused by flu anymore than all of Seles losses to Graf post stabbing were due to the stabbing.

She lost because Martina won the points she needed to and got the ball back over the net due to having a stronger game than Graf.

Case closed.

faboozadoo15
Apr 26th, 2005, 12:24 AM
Monica was not on top in 1990. Graf was clear #1 at year's end.

that's just not true. graf may have had a sizable lead built up through winning a lot of small events, but monica won the french open and the masters, gaby took the uso, martina took wimbledon, and steffi had the aus open. that's not clearly #1 at all....

DA FOREHAND
Apr 26th, 2005, 12:59 PM
that's just not true. graf may have had a sizable lead built up through winning a lot of small events, but monica won the french open and the masters, gaby took the uso, martina took wimbledon, and steffi had the aus open. that's not clearly #1 at all....


It's as clear as the slim lead Seles had over GRAF in April 1993. :wavey:

denzuko
Apr 26th, 2005, 02:44 PM
Ah,
Calimero377 and DA FOREHAND the coward (hint: read the signature) still at large.
It's a sad case for tennis fans, they give them the bad name.
If they're not careful, they'll be no difference than Gunther Parche someday.
The difference only the weapon of choice.
Parche used knife, they're using word, numbers, and stats.

I'm amazing you all wasting your time to arguing with these guys.
Sir Winston Curchill once said: "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject"

DA FOREHAND
Apr 26th, 2005, 03:07 PM
Ah,
Calimero377 and DA FOREHAND the coward (hint: read the signature) still at large.
It's a sad case for tennis fans, they give them the bad name.
If they're not careful, they'll be no difference than Gunther Parche someday.
The difference only the weapon of choice.
Parche used knife, they're using word, numbers, and stats.

I'm amazing you all wasting your time to arguing with these guys.
Sir Winston Curchill once said: "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject"
translate that into something that makes sense.

you're here tyring to personally attack others, so it's you who are more in line w/ Parche.

denzuko
Apr 26th, 2005, 03:23 PM
translate that into something that makes sense.

you're here tyring to personally attack others, so it's you who are more in line w/ Parche.

Sorry, did I offended you ?
I was talking to the other guys in this thread, not to wasting their time.

It's sad, I have to use that last resort in order to do that, my bad... :rolleyes:

faboozadoo15
Apr 26th, 2005, 03:29 PM
It's as clear as the slim lead Seles had over GRAF in April 1993. :wavey:
i NEVER use ranking points to show monica's dominance over the tour. i look at the big events, and 2+ years in a row, monica won 4 of the top 5 biggest events of the year twice in a row and was continuing to do so in 1993.

starting with the masters in 1990, monica won that, the aus open, the french open, the us open, the masters, the aus open, the french open, lost in the wim final (only loss in a big event during run), won the uso, then the masters again, and then the aus open again. and then she was stabbed.

that's winning 10/11 of the BIGGEST events she played and 10/12 of all the biggest events through that span (seles missed 1991 wimbledon). i really don't care how close graf remained in the rankings by winning a bunch of less prestigious events.

but to say graf was still clearly the best player in the world in 1990 is a bit retarded when she came away with just one of the top 5 events and was beaten twice by the #2 player in the world during only her second year as a pro :tape:

denzuko
Apr 26th, 2005, 03:35 PM
Wow, I got a bad rep, my first !!
Thanks,
I must be said something right :)

DA FOREHAND
Apr 26th, 2005, 03:40 PM
i NEVER use ranking points to show monica's dominance over the tour. i look at the big events, and 2+ years in a row, monica won 4 of the top 5 biggest events of the year twice in a row and was continuing to do so in 1993.

starting with the masters in 1990, monica won that, the aus open, the french open, the us open, the masters, the aus open, the french open, lost in the wim final (only loss in a big event during run), won the uso, then the masters again, and then the aus open again. and then she was stabbed.

that's winning 10/11 of the BIGGEST events she played and 10/12 of all the biggest events through that span (seles missed 1991 wimbledon). i really don't care how close graf remained in the rankings by winning a bunch of less prestigious events.

but to say graf was still clearly the best player in the world in 1990 is a bit retarded when she came away with just one of the top 5 events and was beaten twice by the #2 player in the world during only her second year as a pro :tape:

I would agree...Monica was def. taking the lions share of the big titles. It's really unfortunate that we weren't allowed to watch the rivalry play out, I think it def. would have surpassed the NAV/Evert if not in quantity def. in quality. One can't use one arguement to support thier claims and then debunk that same reasoning when it doesn't support thier cause.

DA FOREHAND
Apr 26th, 2005, 03:41 PM
Wow, I got a bad rep, my first !!
Thanks,
I must be said something right :)


no that just means you said something stupid...but I take it English isn't your first language.

faboozadoo15
Apr 26th, 2005, 03:44 PM
I would agree...Monica was def. taking the lions share of the big titles. It's really unfortunate that we weren't allowed to watch the rivalry play out, I think it def. would have surpassed the NAV/Evert if not in quantity def. in quality. One can't use one arguement to support thier claims and then debunk that same reasoning when it doesn't support thier cause.
i agree-- i wasn't saying that in 1990 graf wasn't fully deserving of #1. she was extremely consistent and won a bunch of titles. i was (originally, to cali) saying that monica's head to head matches from 1990 on were an indication of where their rivalry was because that's when monica started winning big titles (during only her second year as a professional).

DA FOREHAND
Apr 26th, 2005, 03:52 PM
i agree-- i wasn't saying that in 1990 graf wasn't fully deserving of #1. she was extremely consistent and won a bunch of titles. i was (originally, to cali) saying that monica's head to head matches from 1990 on were an indication of where their rivalry was because that's when monica started winning big titles (during only her second year as a professional).


Sounds like the beginning of a very even h2h matchup...unfortantely it was derrailed by a loon.

denzuko
Apr 26th, 2005, 04:02 PM
I give up. :rolleyes:

Sorry for wasting space in this thread...
Anyway it was one of the great match.

I'll shut up now. :tape:

Calimero377
Apr 26th, 2005, 05:21 PM
that's just not true. graf may have had a sizable lead built up through winning a lot of small events, but monica won the french open and the masters, gaby took the uso, martina took wimbledon, and steffi had the aus open. that's not clearly #1 at all....


Graf won one slam (AO), made two more slam finals (FO & USO) and one slam semi (Wimbledon).
Seles won one slam (FO), made one quarters (Wimbledon) and one 3rd round (USO).

Graf had a 49 pts. lead in the WTA rankings.
When Seles was #1 for 2 years in 91/93 her maximum lead was 58 pts.; she had a bigger lead than 49 only for some weeks.

Of course ranking points do count. They reflect the value of the tournaments as seen by the body of women's tennis, the World Tennis Association. Everybody who wants to change those rules, may try to get elected to the boards of the WTA and then to make better ranking rules. Until then we should stick to the rules established by the WTA.

To say "Monica was on top in 1990" is delusional Selesian fantasy .....

Calimero377
Apr 26th, 2005, 05:26 PM
i NEVER use ranking points to show monica's dominance over the tour. i look at the big events, and 2+ years in a row, monica won 4 of the top 5 biggest events of the year twice in a row and was continuing to do so in 1993. ...


Graf won the two single most important tournaments in that time.
Wimbledon 1991.
And Wimbledon 1992.
Wimbledon is forever ...

"Oh, one last question: Exactly how many Wimbledon titles has, did, or will Seles win? Was that 'zero' I heard? it sure was. Enough said."
(Stephen Thomas, FOXSports.com, August 13, 1999)


:)

Martian Jeza
Apr 26th, 2005, 05:30 PM
When I was 10 years old ( 1990 ) : Graf was at her top but the player who I focused was Seles and NOT Graf ! I saw in Seles a very talented player and a great fighter : Respect for a teenager like Monica was at that time... Seles beat Graf at the FO because Seles was stronger than Graff and deserved her victory so no excuse Calimero.

spencercarlos
Apr 26th, 2005, 05:32 PM
i NEVER use ranking points to show monica's dominance over the tour. i look at the big events, and 2+ years in a row, monica won 4 of the top 5 biggest events of the year twice in a row and was continuing to do so in 1993.

starting with the masters in 1990, monica won that, the aus open, the french open, the us open, the masters, the aus open, the french open, lost in the wim final (only loss in a big event during run), won the uso, then the masters again, and then the aus open again. and then she was stabbed.

that's winning 10/11 of the BIGGEST events she played and 10/12 of all the biggest events through that span (seles missed 1991 wimbledon). i really don't care how close graf remained in the rankings by winning a bunch of less prestigious events.

but to say graf was still clearly the best player in the world in 1990 is a bit retarded when she came away with just one of the top 5 events and was beaten twice by the #2 player in the world during only her second year as a pro :tape:
I agree Seles had a better year than Graf in 1990, 2 of the biggest 5 titles won that year, and we have to add the Miami (the so called 5th major) title for Monica that year as well. :worship:
The only reason Graf was number one that year was that Monica did not play at the Australian Open, otherwise number one would have been within reach.
:devil: :kiss: Im amazed on how blind i was on this, Monica so darn too good, too tough to handle, too cold to hold... :p

DA FOREHAND
Apr 26th, 2005, 05:39 PM
I agree Seles had a better year than Graf in 1990, 2 of the biggest 5 titles won that year, and we have to add the Miami (the so called 5th major) title for Monica that year as well. :worship:
The only reason Graf was number one that year was that Monica did not play at the Australian Open, otherwise number one would have been within reach.
:devil: :kiss: Im amazed on how blind i was on this, Monica so darn too good, too tough to handle, too cold to hold... :p


If I, woulda, coulda, shoulda...

denzuko
Apr 26th, 2005, 05:39 PM
Graf won the two single most important tournaments in that time.
Wimbledon 1991.
And Wimbledon 1992.
Wimbledon is forever ...



:tape: Mmm mmmm mmmmmmm Mmmmm mmm mmm mmmmm m MM ??? :)* :tape:

(* You mean because Seles won the other 6 GS ??? :))

spencercarlos
Apr 26th, 2005, 05:42 PM
If I, woulda, coulda, shoulda...
1990
Big titles
Seles 2 > Graf 1

1991
Seles 3 > Graf 1

1992
Seles 3 > Graf 1

Maths is an unviersal language, i don`t think i need to explain you these numbers.
:wavey:

DA FOREHAND
Apr 26th, 2005, 05:49 PM
1990
Big titles
Seles 2 > Graf 1

1991
Seles 3 > Graf 1

1992
Seles 3 > Graf 1

Maths is an unviersal language, i don`t think i need to explain you these numbers.
:wavey:
no need to explain anything....I'm simply going by the rankings and points as they were awarded in the early 90's...

DA FOREHAND
Apr 26th, 2005, 05:52 PM
oh please! give me a decent logical reason why wimbeldon should be valued anymore than the other slams? tradition, prestige etc is just total tripe IMO as all the best players turn up at the majors and give it 120%, its not like they give any less effort at the other slams.

in my opinion wimbeldon should in fact be valued less.
-if grass was such a great surface for tennis why do we have so few grass tournaments?
- the fact we have so few tournaments also means most players arent used to playing on it so less players would be able to handle it, therefore less competition for those whose game is more suited to it ie. graf with her slice bh.
- and more..

So in effect what you're saying is...Court, King and Navratilova have inflated slam #'s because grass was the dominant surface at one time?


Steffi has more than proven herself on every surface winning at least 4 GRand slam titles on ea. slam event... :worship: :worship: :worship:

SM
Apr 26th, 2005, 05:52 PM
Graf won the two single most important tournaments in that time.
Wimbledon 1991.
And Wimbledon 1992.
Wimbledon is forever ...

"Oh, one last question: Exactly how many Wimbledon titles has, did, or will Seles win? Was that 'zero' I heard? it sure was. Enough said."
(Stephen Thomas, FOXSports.com, August 13, 1999)


:)
oh please! tell me one decent, logical reason why wimbeldon should be valued any more than the other slams? tradition, prestige = total tripe IMO. All the top players turn up at the slams and give 120%, not just at wimbeldon

there are some factors why wimby should be valued LESS imo :rolleyes:
- there are fewer grass events by FAR than other surfaces. if the surface is so great why dont we have many more tournaments on grass or similar surfaces????
- suits very few playing styles and unfair balance to those with particular game styles such as steffi with her slice bh. its not a surface fair to all players so it gives an advantage to some players that they would not have on a more neutral surface such as at aus or us opens
- there are so few grass tournaments that alot of players simply arent able to get used to it and how to play on it to give much competition to this with games more suited to it
- etc etc etc

SM
Apr 26th, 2005, 05:59 PM
daforehand, all im saying is that there are multiple positions on which slam should be given most weight and if ur gonna treat wimbeldon as such i atleast want some coherent argument put forward.
thanks.

DA FOREHAND
Apr 26th, 2005, 06:03 PM
I would agree, Wimbledon has historically been the crown jewel of the slams in the past, but all of them carry the same heft in this day in age. Very few flukey finals, and even fewer flukey wins in the open era.(Conchita)

spencercarlos
Apr 26th, 2005, 06:22 PM
no need to explain anything....I'm simply going by the rankings and points as they were awarded in the early 90's...
Good for you !
Ask Martina Hingis circa 2000-2001 :p

Calimero377
Apr 26th, 2005, 06:26 PM
...
The only reason Graf was number one that year was that Monica did not play at the Australian Open, otherwise number one would have been within reach.
... :p


They had an average point system back in 1990, Dumbo .....

Calimero377
Apr 26th, 2005, 06:29 PM
oh please! tell me one decent, logical reason why wimbeldon should be valued any more than the other slams?
...



Ask the players.


Then come back ....

faboozadoo15
Apr 26th, 2005, 07:02 PM
They had an average point system back in 1990, Dumbo .....
yes, and playing a grand slam and doing well there would significantly UP your tournament average, dumbo.

R&J
Apr 26th, 2005, 07:18 PM
http://www.monicaselessite.com/photogalleries/photogallery22/PG22_12.jpg

spencercarlos
Apr 26th, 2005, 07:19 PM
They had an average point system back in 1990, Dumbo .....
:rolleyes:
Points gained at grand slams = big amount of points = average increasing.. what a dumbo you are

Try harder cal, you can... :wavey:

DA FOREHAND
Apr 26th, 2005, 07:20 PM
Look how slim Monica was way back then...if she stuck to a fitness routine she would have hoisted a few more slam trophies.

Calimero377
Apr 26th, 2005, 07:23 PM
yes, and playing a grand slam and doing well there would significantly UP your tournament average, dumbo.


She would have had to make the finals to UP her average.
Even with a WIN at AO she would not have been #1.

Calimero377
Apr 26th, 2005, 07:25 PM
Look how slim Monica was way back then...if she stuck to a fitness routine she would have hoisted a few more slam trophies.


No, I don't think so.
It's the genes.
Monica was already gaining weight in 92/93 ....

DA FOREHAND
Apr 26th, 2005, 07:27 PM
No, I don't think so.
It's the genes.
Monica was already gaining weight in 92/93 ....
That doesn't mean she couldn't have trained to keep the weight at bay....Look at Lindsay? Hell even Steffi had to train to maintain the extra weight she felt she needed to stay competittion tough, she weighs less now after kids than she did during her playing days.

faboozadoo15
Apr 26th, 2005, 07:28 PM
No, I don't think so.
It's the genes.
Monica was already gaining weight in 92/93 ....
yea, she was 17 and 18 and her body was maturing... :rolleyes: she wasn't "putting on" fat. she was filling out her frame as every adult does.