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View Full Version : A New Pope has been Chosen. He calls himself Pope Benedict XVI


Mase
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:07 PM
More to come....

schris
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:08 PM
HABEMUS PAPAM !!! :-) but who ????

KoOlMaNsEaN
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:11 PM
:bounce: !Rejoice! :bounce:

gentenaire
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:13 PM
please, don't let it be Ratzinger!! Please no Ratzinger!

I hadn't expected they'd come to an agreement so fast. Must be one of the frontrunners then.

tfannis
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:15 PM
please, don't let it be Ratzinger!! Please no Ratzinger!

I hadn't expected they'd come to an agreement so fast. Must be one of the frontrunners then.
As it happened so fast, it could be Ratzinger...horrible :(

Wojtek
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:15 PM
please, don't let it be Ratzinger!! Please no Ratzinger!

I hadn't expected they'd come to an agreement so fast. Must be one of the frontrunners then.

The same here

I hope it will be someone form Latin America

alfonsojose
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:18 PM
Alfonsus I :angel:

Mrs. Peel
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:22 PM
That was fast!


How long was conclave when JPII was chosen?

Infiniti2001
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:25 PM
http://img77.echo.cx/img77/2193/041912130115vr.jpg

http://img77.echo.cx/img77/3145/041912181181fa.jpg

http://img77.echo.cx/img77/525/041912181149rk.jpghttp://img244.echo.cx/img244/2576/0419122520104tz.jpg

http://img244.echo.cx/img244/1391/0419122520116os.jpg

Mase
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:28 PM
That was fast!


How long was conclave when JPII was chosen?

From MSNBC.com ;)

The conclave lasted for two days, and no conclave in the past century had lasted more than five days. The election that made John Paul II pope in October 1978 took eight ballots over three days.

Infiniti2001
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:28 PM
Why am I not as excited as all the folks at St Peter's Square? :shrug: It's like a rock concert atmosphere :eek:

Mrs. Peel
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:37 PM
Why am I not as excited as all the folks at St Peter's Square? :shrug: It's like a rock concert atmosphere :eek:

I still wish I could see the happenings live! It is so exciting!

ys
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:39 PM
This game is so exciting.. I wish they were doing it more often..

Sanneriet
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:40 PM
!

I hadn't expected they'd come to an agreement so fast. Must be one of the frontrunners then.


Not necessarily. John Paul II health issues were better known to the cardinals than to the masses.

KV
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:43 PM
Ratzinger is the new pope.

Sanneriet
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:44 PM
That makes me feel a bit sad. It seems the message is preserving teachings more than addressing some of the serious issues facing the church and the world.

-Ph51-
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:46 PM
please, don't let it be Ratzinger!! Please no Ratzinger!

I hadn't expected they'd come to an agreement so fast. Must be one of the frontrunners then.
Bad luck ;)

gentenaire
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:46 PM
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

-Ph51-
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:46 PM
Benedict 16

Infiniti2001
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:47 PM
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

You don't say. NOTHING will change :fiery:

Infiniti2001
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:48 PM
I still wish I could see the happenings live! It is so exciting!

You got MSN??
I can hook you up for a sec.

tfannis
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:49 PM
It's Radzinger :( :rolleyes: Another No-condoms pope? :smash:

ys
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:49 PM
The man is old. Vatican is just attention seekers.

Infiniti2001
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:49 PM
Meet the Pope elect http://img249.echo.cx/img249/6400/041912480430fb.jpg

Brαm
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:51 PM
Great :mad: That's the last thing the Catholic Church needs: an old conservative Pope :(

I was hoping for a non-European... :awww:

"Topaz"
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:51 PM
There you have it: A German Cardinal, 78 years old, known to be close to John Paul II.

! Joseph Ratzinger !

Will take up the name: Benedict XVI (the 16th)

:worship: :worship:
:angel:

pan
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:53 PM
hmmm, RATZINGER is a hardliner, so forget reforms... :(

Rocketta
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:53 PM
wow he is very old....what they have like ten years out of him? :confused: What's the point?

Knizzle
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:54 PM
So Pope John Paul's name wasn't really John Paul?? :confused:

Knizzle
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:55 PM
hmmm, RATZINGER is a hardliner, so forget reforms... :(

What do you want changed?

Rocketta
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:55 PM
There you have it: A German Cardinal, 78 years old, known to be close to John Paul II.


! Joseph Ratzinger !

Will take up the name: Benedict XVI (the 16th)

:worship: :worship:
:angel:




78! :eek:

Damn they may not even get 5 years out of him. :tape:

Cariaoke
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:55 PM
No surprise there!

I wonder where he'll hide the child molesting preachers... :unsure:

Mase
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:55 PM
wow he is very old....what they have like ten years out of him? :confused: What's the point?

Yeah Im confused as well hon.

arn
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:56 PM
pffff, bad choice :(

Pszczelny
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:56 PM
So Pope John Paul's name wasn't really John Paul?? :confused:

OMG :rolleyes:

gentenaire
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:56 PM
by the time he's dead, there won't be single catholic left in Europe! (Vatican excepted). He'll drive everyone away!

This is almost as bad as Bush's re-election!

Rocketta
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:56 PM
What do you want changed?

hmm, probably their stance on HIV & AIDS, birth control, priests and Nuns having to be celebate....probably many many more things. ;)

Knizzle
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:56 PM
Are you asking seriously :confused:

Yes.

Cam'ron Giles
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:57 PM
So Pope John Paul's name wasn't really John Paul?? :confused:

:o

Knizzle
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:57 PM
hmm, probably their stance on HIV & AIDS, birth control, priests and Nuns having to be celebate....probably many many more things. ;)

Were these things considered to be sin??

Rocketta
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:57 PM
So Pope John Paul's name wasn't really John Paul?? :confused:

yeah I didn't know that either until after he died. :o :o :o

Brαm
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:57 PM
What do you want changed?
I'd like to see women priests :)

Oh no more "condoms, abortion, euthanasia = evil" bullshit :( :mad:

Mase
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:57 PM
Are you asking seriously :confused:

I had no clue they chose psuedonyms. for lack of a better word.

Pszczelny
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:00 PM
:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:
RATZINGER
:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

VIVA CONSERVATIVES :worship: :worship: :worship:

Rocketta
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:00 PM
Were these things considered to be sin??

hmmm, I don't know I do know they put out information one time saying condoms was causing HIV/AIDS....telling their people that using them was causing the spread of the disease. I think they've backed away from it well I hope they did.

and no priests being married and having sex is not a sin it's a stupid rule that the church implemented...I can't remember why or when but it wasn't always that way.

Mase
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:03 PM
But since he's dead there's so much media coverage about him...

Guess I havent watched enough... Interesting fact though.

ktoles2005
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:04 PM
Ugh, there goes hoping for someone who would be slightly progressive. I'm so glad I choose to live as an Atheist. Thats all the world needs is another right wing nutjob telling people how to live their lives. I feel sorry for Catholics. This is truly a sad day for them.

gentenaire
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:06 PM
and I thought the previous pope was bad....he at least had one good feature, he tried to be open towards other religions. Take that one good feature away and ta-dam, you have the new pope!

Ratzinger wrote a doctrine saying the catholic faith is the one and only true faith, that all other faiths are deficient, etc.

griffin
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:07 PM
wow he is very old....what they have like ten years out of him? :confused: What's the point?

According to some, that WOULD be the point - I've heard a couple of people speculate that the Cardinals might look for an older Pope who might not last as long. The theory is that a Pope can become too powerful if he's in office too long (kinda like term limits). Although, if they were seriously concerned about a Pope becomeing too powerful, I don't know why they'd elect someone who's supposedly committed to very strong central authority within the church.

Sally Struthers
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:07 PM
http://www.dayofgod.net/Malachy/malachy.htm

John Paul II s successor is called " Gloria Olivae," or "glory of the olive. "traditionally, the olive branch has been associated with peace, but in both the Old and New Testaments it also serves as an emblem for the Jews. Putting the two together, some commentators believe that the reign of this pope will be a peaceful one during which the prophesied conversion of the Jews will take place.

However , Malachy s description may instead refer to St. Benedicts 6th century prophecy that a member of his order will lead the Church in its fight against evil just before the Apocalypse. The Benedictine Order is known by another name: Olivetans.

After Gloria Olivae comes Petrus Romanus, the final pope of Rome, during whose reign " the seven-hilled city will be destroyed. "The Church particularly- and understandably -repudiates St. Malachy's last, black prophecy. But it is striking that at least one pope had a similar mystical vision.


:o

ys
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:08 PM
wow he is very old....what they have like ten years out of him? :confused: What's the point?

Simple. They liked the show. They like to be the centre of attention of all world for a whole long month.. In few years we'll have it again - millions parading in front of a corpse and then the whole mysterious holy smoke business.. Good PR, if you ask me..

As to anti-condome pope .. People will always find a reason to be unhappy.. Pro-condome pope would probably still be anti-gay. And even if they miraculously find a pro-gay pope, they would demand a gay pope.. I mean.. who cares.. That's just circus..

GoDominique
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:09 PM
yeah I didn't know that either until after he died. :o :o :o
Yeah, since John Paul is such a popular name in Poland. :tape: :rolleyes:

gentenaire
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:09 PM
From the Times:

Ratzinger’s past includes brief membership of the Hitler Youth movement and wartime service with a German army anti- aircraft unit.

cynicole
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:10 PM
This is very disappointing...at least for this Catholic.

Josh
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:10 PM
Well they chose him because he's old and hopefully will die quickly. Maybe he can follow John Paul I's example.....

I guess this is the end of catholicism in Western Europe.

GoDominique
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:10 PM
Anyway I'm happy the decision wasn't taken earlier, because CBS wouldn't have shown The Price Is Right and I would have been mad. :)
You still have that show ????????????? :eek:

Here it got cancelled a few years ago. :( :(

JonBcn
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:11 PM
I personally enjoyed seeing him walk through those huge red velvet curtains. It looked like a giant vagina.

GoDominique
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:11 PM
Anyway, why do they choose this old mummy? :(

gentenaire
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:12 PM
Let's hope he'll do a PJPI

Infiniti2001
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:13 PM
This is very disappointing...at least for this Catholic.

I'm sadden by this choice :sad: My 83 year old grandma bless her heart has been after me to get back to the church, but I'm afraid it won't happen any time soon. It just kills me that the Pope and priests ( all sexless ) are men with absolutely no important relationships with women at all. They live in this little all-male colony and then make pronouncements about how feminism is the enemy of morals. They only think of womenas wives and mothers UGH. Mind you, I'm not at all for women becoming priest, but I still feel that women should be more involved in the church.

Yasmine
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:13 PM
That makes me feel a bit sad. It seems the message is preserving teachings more than addressing some of the serious issues facing the church and the world.
I have to say I agree there, a lot of conservative cardinals have elected a conservative pope... The thing about his papacy is that being 78 years old, he won't be pope for more than 10 years I would imagine... A sort of transition period for the church.

galadriel
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:14 PM
Ratzinger is much too conservative :sad: :fiery:

Josh
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:15 PM
I'm sadden by this choice :sad: My 83 year old grandma bless her heart has been after me to get back to the church, but I'm afraid it won't happen any time soon. It just kills me that the Pope and priests ( all sexless ) are men with absolutely no important relationships with women at all. They live in this little all-male colony and then make pronouncements about how feminism is the enemy of morals. They only think of womenas wives and mothers UGH. Mind you, I'm not at all for women becoming priest, but I still feel that women should be more involved in the church.

You mean that women should do more than cooking, cleaning and washing for the priests? :o :eek:

;)

Yasmine
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:16 PM
It just kills me that the Pope and priests ( all sexless ) are men with absolutely no important relationships with women at all.
Definitely! :worship:

ys
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:16 PM
From the Times:

Ratzinger’s past includes brief membership of the Hitler Youth movement and wartime service with a German army anti- aircraft unit.

And you expected him to be a member of Resistance at an age of 18, right?

arn
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:16 PM
Look at it the positive way; After Ratzinger it can only go better again :tape: At least if it will not be too late at that time :tape:

Infiniti2001
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:17 PM
You mean that women should do more than cooking, cleaning and washing for the priests? :o :eek:

;)

YES ;) :lol: :haha:

Yasmine
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:17 PM
Ratzinger is much too conservative :sad: :fiery:
I agree but the thing is, he was elected with a 2/3 majority, so obviously he has behind him a huge majority of the church representatives! :eek:

GoDominique
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:19 PM
From the Times:

Ratzinger’s past includes brief membership of the Hitler Youth movement and wartime service with a German army anti- aircraft unit.
I guess that I wouldn't hold that against him though.

Yasmine
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:20 PM
You mean that women should do more than cooking, cleaning and washing for the priests? :o :eek:
sorry you forgot something... and playing tennis thanks you very much!!! :devil:

Josh
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:21 PM
I wonder how much of a boost this will give to protestantism in Latin America.

Rocketta
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:22 PM
sorry you forgot something... and playing tennis thanks you very much!!! :devil:

also forgot, having a bunch of children until their uterus falls out so the priests can have a congregation. :devil:

cynicole
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:23 PM
I agree but the thing is, he was elected with a 2/3 majority, so obviously he has behind him a huge majority of the church representatives! :eek:

Because John Paul II picked all but 3 of the voting Cardinals.

I'm guessing one of those 3 was Ratzinger and I know another one is Sin (one of the most amusing names ever for a Cardinal). Who's the other one?

Circe
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:23 PM
I agree but the thing is, he was elected with a 2/3 majority, so obviously he has behind him a huge majority of the church representatives! :eek:
you expected anything different after nearly three decades of JP II? he gave the conservatives have pretty much a vice-like grip on the church with his appointments over the long length of his term.

wayitis
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:25 PM
and no priests being married and having sex is not a sin it's a stupid rule that the church implemented...I can't remember why or when but it wasn't always that way.

it's not stupid, it's actually a brilliant plot to keep all the riches within firm grasp of the Catholic Church... just imagine how much of the incommensurable Real Estate value would be at stake if the Chrurch allowed priests to marry, procriate and divorce...

Lord Nelson
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:27 PM
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
what do you care, you're atheist, no? I'm very happy that Cardinal Ratzinger is the new Pope. He is a natural leader. Hooray for Pope Benedict. :worship:

raquel
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:27 PM
I wonder how much of a boost this will give to protestantism in Latin America.
Because it's not a Latin Pope? I don't think that will make much of a difference in terms of Catholics abandoning the religion there.

duck
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:29 PM
I guess this is the end of catholicism in Western Europe.

I thought pretty much the same thing. Ratzinger is a depressing choice. I wasn't expecting any kind of miracle: I don't expect the church to ever move on abortion or euthanasia for reasons I understand and respect even if I disagree with them. They will never move on homosexuality either so I felt that was a pipedream. But I thought that the election of a progressive who would review at least the Church's stance on contraception and on the place and position of women within and without the church was sorely needed.

Josh
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:29 PM
Because it's not a Latin Pope? I don't think that will make much of a difference in terms of Catholics abandoning the religion there.

Protestantism is growing very fast in Latin America. Different Protestant churches are active on the continent and there's actually a lot of people abandoning the Catholic church out of disappointment or disagreement with certain of its doctrines.

Mase
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:35 PM
Here's an article on the whole name thing..

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7540353/

Lynx
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:39 PM
by the time he's dead, there won't be single catholic left in Europe! (Vatican excepted). He'll drive everyone away!That's the only good thing about it. :tape:


To quote what's-his-name-again from the vrt-news yesterday night: "There ARE no progressive cardinals."

Thinking about it, I'd rather have a rightwinger who is out than one who is in hiding... talking placatingly and getting lots of respect from otherwise rational people... but all the while quietly taking the same devastating decisions.

raquel
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:40 PM
Protestantism is growing very fast in Latin America. Different Protestant churches are active on the continent and there's actually a lot of people abandoning the Catholic church out of disappointment or disagreement with certain of its doctrines.
I still think Latin America will be pretty much a Roman Catholic stronghold though for the foreseeable future. If people there disagreed with the last Pope's conservative doctrine then yes, they will continue to disagree with this Pope's doctrine. I thought you might be suggesting people there were expecting a Latin Pope and with this announcement would leave the religion because he wasn't Latin so I just read it the wrong way.

The news here said that there's actually been a rise in Roman Catholics in some places in recent years because of the more conservative stance, especially in Africa, which is ironic considering the huge numbers of AIDS deaths there every year while the Catholic church still frowns on contraception which would at least stem the spread of AIDS.

CC
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:41 PM
What a fantastical display of idolatry.

Yasmine
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:42 PM
Thinking about it, I'd rather have a rightwinger who is out than one who is in hiding... talking placatingly and getting lots of respect from otherwise rational people... but all the while quietly taking the same devastating decisions.
Good point Sir Lynx! :wavey: at least no surprises;)

Infiniti2001
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:44 PM
Protestantism is growing very fast in Latin America. Different Protestant churches are active on the continent and there's actually a lot of people abandoning the Catholic church out of disappointment or disagreement with certain of its doctrines.

That's happening because of the hardline of the catholic church. The Evangelical church is growing in Brazil -- the country with the most Roman Catholics of all places.

HectorMagnus
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:48 PM
May his pontificate will be successful....

Long life Benedict XVI. and good luck pope!

duck
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:49 PM
from thetablet.co.uk -a Catholic paper

18/09/2004
Cardinal Paradox


John Allen




At a time of an ailing Pope, the voice of Joseph Ratzinger is increasingly heard as that of the Vatican. And yet, the Church’s enforcer is also a singular freethinker. From American politicians, to women, and Turkey, his views have dominated the headlines this year

CARDINAL Joseph Ratzinger, the Catholic Church’s doctrinal tsar, is generally spoken well of around the water coolers of the Vatican, and not just out of fear of the legendary Panzer-kardinal. It is also because Ratzinger is seen as personally gracious and modest, someone who does not go out of his way to build empires, or to involve himself in other people’s business.

This does not mean, of course, that Ratzinger lacks opinions about their business, going well beyond matters that pertain directly to his competence as the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Nor has he ever been shy about expressing them.

At the Eighth International Church Music Congress in Rome in 1986, for example, Ratzinger blasted rock music as a “vehicle of anti-religion”. He said rock and roll is a secular variant of an age-old ecstatic religion, in which man “lowers the barriers of individuality and personality” to “liberate himself from the burden of consciousness”. Rock is thus “the complete antithesis of Christian faith in the redemption”.

In March 1997 Ratzinger offered a similarly harsh judgement on Buddhism, calling it “an auto-erotic spirituality” in an interview with a leading French newspaper. Buddhism, said Ratzinger, “seeks transcendence without imposing concrete religious obligations”.

Over the years Ratzinger has even been willing to express a few criticisms, however tame, about his boss.

In 1986, when John Paul II called religious leaders from around the world to Assisi to pray for peace, a move conservatives feared would promote a “one-religion-is-as-good-as-another” form of relativism, Ratzinger said: “This cannot be the model.”

In a 1995 interview, Ratzinger was asked to describe what John Paul meant when he said the third millennium would be a “springtime of the human spirit”. Ratzinger sketched the Pope’s hopeful vision that after two millennia of division, the third would be one of unity among peoples and religions. But “at the moment I do not yet see it approaching”, he added drily.

Every time Ratzinger makes such a statement, the official gloss is that he was merely expressing a “personal opinion”. John Paul II himself has sometimes agreed. In 1995, on the papal plane, when a reporter asked for a comment on Ratzinger’s book-length interview with Vittorio Messori called The Ratzinger Report, the Pope replied succinctly: “It’s his personal opinion.”

This is in many ways a perfectly defensible distinction. One would not want a Church so afraid of conversation that its senior officials were muzzled, especially someone with the intellectual baggage of Joseph Ratzinger. And it is not as if his word automatically becomes church policy: twice since 1986 the Pope has assembled religious leaders in Assisi, despite Ratzinger’s misgivings, and rock music is commonplace even at papal liturgies: World Youth Day would not be the same without at least one number from “Gen Rosso” or “Gen Verde”, the Focolare movement’s male and female pop troupes.

Recently, however, Ratzinger’s public statements have kicked up an unusual amount of dust – even by his own rather tumultuous standards.

During a series of spring ad limina visits by American bishops, Ratzinger gave several the private impression that he favoured “going slow” on denying Communion to pro-choice Catholic politicians. When a couple of these bishops passed the word to their colleagues, Ratzinger felt the need to strike a firmer line. He sent a letter to Cardinal Theodore McCarrick, the Archbishop of Washington DC, in which he said that if such a politician does not heed warnings from his pastor, then the pastor would be justified in withholding the Eucharist. This would not be a sanction, Ratzinger argued, but a response to the person’s public unworthiness. When that in turn was perceived as at odds with the stance taken by the Americans to allow each bishop to decide, Ratzinger wrote yet another letter on 12 July: the position of the US bishops was “very much in harmony” with his own, he said.

Then, in a 13 May speech at the Italian Senate, Ratzinger asserted that the United States is actively promoting a policy of “Protestantisation” in Latin America and the “dissolution” of the Catholic Church there in favour of “free Churches”. Ratzinger said the policy stems from an American conviction that the Catholic Church “cannot guarantee a stable political and economic system, and therefore fails as an educator of nations, while the free Churches will render possible a moral consensus and a democratic formation similar to that of the United States.” Officials of the US Government expressed bewilderment at the charge.

In August, shortly before the Pope’s visit to Lourdes, Ratzinger came out against the candidacy of Turkey to join the European Union. In an interview with the French publication Le Figaro, Ratzinger said that Turkey has always been “in permanent contrast to Europe”, and that it should look instead to play a leadership role in a network of Islamic states. “In the course of history, Turkey has always represented a different continent,” Ratzinger said, giving as an example the Ottoman Empire, which once invaded Europe as far as Vienna. “Making the two continents identical would be a mistake,” he said. “It would mean a loss of richness, the disappearance of the cultural to the benefit of economics.”

It is perhaps unfair to add to this list the recent document of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on male/female collaboration, since it was not a personal stance of Ratzinger’s, but rather a text approved by members of the congregation and ratified by the Pope. Yet the document reflects, at least in part, Ratzinger’s own biases. Consider his comments about feminism from a 1988 conference on biblical scholarship in New York: “Whatever else one may say about them, [they] do not even claim to be interested in understanding the text itself in the manner in which it was originally intended ... they are no longer interested in ascertaining the truth, but only in whatever will serve their own particular agendas.”

This sort of commentary is often not reflective of a consensus, even at senior levels in the Vatican. Nor is Ratzinger becoming either more conservative or more outspoken as he ages; he has long been both – always in an urbane, intelligent fashion (see box above).

Why, then, have his latest comments created a ruckus?

For one thing, Ratzinger chose to wade into two of the hottest controversies of the moment: the debate over the bar on Communion which some bishops have favoured for the Democratic presidential challenger, John Kerry, and over Turkey’s prospects for EU membership. He had to know that doing so would generate a reaction, especially when, as on the American debate, he appeared to take somewhat shifting positions.

More profoundly, however, the reaction reflects not so much Ratzinger or what he had to say, but the moment in which the Catholic Church finds itself. With an ailing Pope functioning more at the level of symbolism than governance, Vatican policy is being set from the Apostolic Palace these days only on very big picture questions, and even then only in the most general sense. Normally some of this slack would be picked up by the secretary of state, who functions something like a prime minister to the Pope’s presidency. Yet the current occupant of the position, Cardinal Angelo Sodano, is largely captivated by Italian politics, preferring to leave most other questions to the relevant offices of the Roman Curia.

It is increasingly difficult to know what the “Vatican line” on any given question might be, with different officials staking out different positions. Thus the public comments of senior cardinals, even when they are voicing merely “personal opinions”, are scoured with unusual vigour to try to determine to what extent they might hint at an emerging official policy.

More and more, therefore, when Joseph Ratzinger speaks, it is difficult for people not to hear “the Vatican” – even when they ought to know better.

Despite these dynamics, there is little indication that Ratzinger or similarly outspoken Vatican colleagues, such as cardinals Alfonso López Trujillo in the Pontifical Council for the Family or Renato Martino in the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace, have any intention of lowering the volume. The idea that there exists a single entity out there called “the Vatican”, with one mind and one will, and hence only one view of any issue, has always been essentially a myth; that point has never been more clear than it is today.

John L. Allen Jr. is the Vatican correspondent for the National Catholic Reporter and the author of a biography of Joseph Ratzinger. His latest book is All the Pope’s Men: the inside story of how the Vatican really thinks (Doubleday, 2004).

Guardian of the doctrine

JOSEPH RATZINGER was born in Marktl am Inn, Bavaria, in 1927, and grew up under Hitler’s shadow in the Thirties. His family was anti-Nazi, but not involved in resistance; his father, a policeman, accepted assignments in progressively smaller towns in order to stay clear of politics. The young Ratzinger drew inward, immersing himself in the florid Bavarian piety of the era. In later reflection on the war and Nazism, many German theologians of Ratzinger’s generation, such as the famed moralist Bernard Häring, saw the dangers of blind obedience as its central lesson, fuelling a reform streak in German Catholicism. Ratzinger, however, drew a different conclusion. Only a Church with a strong central authority and rock-solid doctrinal verities, he concluded, can withstand a hostile state or culture. This conviction – one he shares with Pope John Paul II – has informed much of his later Vatican career.

Ratzinger was the peritus, or theological expert, of Cologne’s Cardinal Josef Frings at the Second Vatican Council. At the time, Ratzinger and his boss stood with the liberal conciliar majority. Ratzinger was the ghost writer of a famous speech by Frings at the council, in which he defined the office Ratzinger now heads as a “source of scandal”. His book from that era, Introduction to Christianity, is considered a classic even by many of his later theological opponents. Badly shocked by the student uprisings of 1968, however, Ratzinger adopted a steadily more conservative posture.

In 1977, Paul VI named Ratzinger to the archdiocese of Munich-Freising, and in 1978 made him a cardinal. As a member of the German Bishops’ Conference in 1979, he supported John Paul II’s decision to strip his erstwhile colleague, Hans Küng, of his licence as a Catholic theologian, cementing the rift between the two men. In 1980, Ratzinger was the relator, or chairman, of the Synod on the Laity, where he earned high marks. The Pope asked Ratzinger to head the Congregation for Catholic Education in 1979, but he demurred, saying he could not leave Munich so soon. In 1981, however, he took over as prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Over his 23 years in that role, Ratzinger has been the architect of some of the most controversial aspects of John Paul’s pontificate: the crackdown on liberation theology in Latin America, crusades against gay marriage and feminism, putting a brake on the theology of religious pluralism, and narrowing the boundaries of dissent. On the other hand, Ratzinger is believed to have on occasion acted as a moderating force, opposing, for example, a formal declaration of infallibility for the teaching on birth control. Inside the Vatican, Ratzinger is not seen as a bull in a china shop. Colleagues and subordinates say he is gracious and mild, not one for empire-building. At 77, his health is basically sound, and most observers believe he will remain by John Paul’s side as long as possible.

DevilishAttitude
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:50 PM
Why does the world need another pope. Surely it's time for religion to be modernized and have memories on something like this. Nothing lasts forever.

And why do people in Africa believe in God with the amount of shit and crap they have. But as they say the Lord works in mysterious ways :rolleyes: :lol:

Oh well... He's almost has old has the pope when he died isn't he so maybe I might get my wish ;) but probably not :sad: :p

Infiniti2001
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:53 PM
The news here said that there's actually been a rise in Roman Catholics in some places in recent years because of the more conservative stance, especially in Africa, which is ironic considering the huge numbers of AIDS deaths there every year while the Catholic church still frowns on contraception which would at least stem the spread of AIDS.

Now that's just immoral and unconscionable to demand people not use condoms or any form of birth control :fiery: :mad: Studies have found that the #1 thing you can do to fight poverty is to educate women and give them control over reproduction, but the old sexless boys club don't get it. :rolleyes:

CooCooCachoo
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:56 PM
:rolleyes: Why such an old bloke?

Yasmine
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:58 PM
Now that's just immoral and unconscionable to demand people not use condoms or any form of birth control :fiery: :mad: Studies have found that the #1 thing you can do to fight poverty is to educate women and give them control over reproduction, but the old sexless boys club don't get it. :rolleyes:
:yeah: couldn't have said it better ;)

M2k
Apr 19th, 2005, 07:07 PM
Now that's just immoral and unconscionable to demand people not use condoms or any form of birth control :fiery: :mad: . :rolleyes:

exactly! ..but make those fools understand---> :rolleyes: I for one won't think of myself as Catholic anymore.

Hagar
Apr 19th, 2005, 07:13 PM
by the time he's dead, there won't be single catholic left in Europe! (Vatican excepted). He'll drive everyone away!

This is almost as bad as Bush's re-election!

Looks like conservationists are ruling (also for the Muslims). :fiery: :fiery:
What a pity, I was hoping for someone from the progressive side. Well, difficult, as almost all cardinals have been chosen by Jean-Paul II so is there still something like a progressive side?

crazillo
Apr 19th, 2005, 07:18 PM
Not a good choice... I say it as a German.

He is just too conservative. He is very steady and doesn't move at all. This choice was to go sure... to start a new thing in 5 years... Because in some years it will be a different situation.

M2k
Apr 19th, 2005, 07:34 PM
re: Protestan Church and it's growing influence in Latin America (thanks to Josh for bringing up the subject)

Now as someone who is very ignorant when it comes to different religions, what exactly are the main differences between these two religions? I have known people that have gone protestan, but god I just see it as another narrow minded institution-->:tape:


re: The new pope :tape: I'm hoping against hope that this man will open up his views and create an atmosphere of tolerance within the narrow mindness/tradition of the church...hopfully..maybe?:o

Orangina
Apr 19th, 2005, 07:37 PM
i think the opinion on this board reflect the opinion from they younger generation
because this board has many user between 15 and 25

but i think the older generation will like him, and his conservative thoughts

and you can not expect miracles from the catholic church

and he is already 78years old - he has not the eternal life ;)

M2k
Apr 19th, 2005, 07:40 PM
Looks like conservationists are ruling (also for the Muslims). :fiery: :fiery:
What a pity, I was hoping for someone from the progressive side. Well, difficult, as almost all cardinals have been chosen by Jean-Paul II so is there still something like a progressive side?


A pity indeed! ...and to think I was actually exited about the proclamation of the new pope. :tape: :tape: I should have known. lol

Orangina
Apr 19th, 2005, 07:43 PM
i´m german but i´m really surprised that they choosed Ratzinger

sure, the german media always said he is one of the favorits
but now - it is so unreal
the pope is german :eek:

ClaudiaZ-S
Apr 19th, 2005, 07:47 PM
Good luck to the new Pope Benedict/Benedicto/Benoît XVI

Brαm
Apr 19th, 2005, 07:51 PM
but i think the older generation will like him, and his conservative thoughts
Hagar and Lynx aren't teenagers and they don't seem to like his conservative thoughts... Neither do my parents who are well over 40!

Orangina
Apr 19th, 2005, 07:52 PM
nearly all german TV channels show something about Ratzinger
he is just since 3 hours the new pope
but he already starts to annoy me :lol:
no just kidding

i´m realistically enough to know we will have alot of stuff about him on TV the whole week :eek:

Orangina
Apr 19th, 2005, 07:55 PM
Hagar and Lynx aren't teenagers and they don't seem to like his conservative thoughts... Neither do my parents who are well over 40!

sure, not all people have the same opinion just because they are the same ages
but it seems to me the most older people, or let me say the people over 50 years love the conservative thoughts

i dosen´t mean i like it
and btw. i´m not catholic - so i don´t care about his conservative thoughts

HectorMagnus
Apr 19th, 2005, 08:14 PM
"they call him...."

well he selected it himself ;)

name is kind of political oppinion or course he wan't to follow, a bit surprising for me, I expected Pius :angel:

beauty_is_pink
Apr 19th, 2005, 08:16 PM
Benedict..hm.. I like John Paul better :p

but congrats :)

ezekiel
Apr 19th, 2005, 08:18 PM
As a youth, Ratzinger was in the German Wehrmacht during WWII . He was in the Hitler youth as well. Nice choice there, especially being in late 70's .

Hagar
Apr 19th, 2005, 08:19 PM
but i think the older generation will like him, and his conservative thoughts

These days you are only part of the "older generation" when you are older than 75... :p

ClaudiaZ-S
Apr 19th, 2005, 08:25 PM
According to the prophecy of Malachie, it would be the last pope !

Tylane
Apr 19th, 2005, 08:40 PM
Bad choice, depressing........ :(

snoop
Apr 19th, 2005, 08:51 PM
I never really liked his very conservative way, but we will have to wait and see how hes doing...

nice feeling to have a german pope tho


As a youth, Ratzinger was in the German Wehrmacht during WWII . He was in the Hitler youth as well. Nice choice there, especially being in late 70's .:help: we have a nazi pope

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

ClaudiaZ-S
Apr 19th, 2005, 08:59 PM
As a youth, Ratzinger was in the German Wehrmacht during WWII . He was in the Hitler youth as well. Nice choice there, especially being in late 70's .

He did but it's a fact ! You know in war, they fought for a country ( ie Germany), it's the notion of patriotism and a lot of them disagreed with the nazism idea !

Moreover, he was young and he was 12 when the war began & 17 when the war ended so we can't conclude anything about it !

Finally, he was among the first churchmen to reconize the torture and other treatments done by the Nazis to the Jews, gays and other minorities!

Gallofa
Apr 19th, 2005, 09:09 PM
I thought he may choose Giovanni Paolo III.

All the best to our new Pope :D!

Hulet
Apr 19th, 2005, 09:21 PM
Tbf to the new pope, as claudiaz, mentioned already that it's very unlikely for the youth in that age not to belong to Hitler Youth (I think it was actually mandatory by the end of the war). I think most German youth during the Nazi era also underwent anti-aircraft training after graduating from highschool. Actually, Ratzinger's parernts were reportedly anti-Nazi and tried to avoid being involved in Nazi politics. When Ratzinger was conscripted into the military, he defected soon after or something.

As for my opinion about him becoming a pope, I have absolutely none - since I am not catholic. But, I am wondering who will be the next pope already, as this one won't stay there for long.

ClaudiaZ-S
Apr 19th, 2005, 09:25 PM
, as claudiazTbf to the new pope, mentioned already that it's very unlikely for the youth in that age not to belong to Hitler Youth (I think it was actually mandatory by the end of the war). I think most German youth during the Nazi era also underwent anti-aircraft training after graduating from highschool. Actually, Ratzinger's parernts were reportedly anti-Nazi and tried to avoid being involved in Nazi politics. When Ratzinger was conscripted into the military, he defected soon after or something.

As for my opinion about him becoming a pope, I have absolutely none - since I am not catholic. But, I am wondering who will be the next pope already, as this one won't stay there for long.

He can stay 10 years !

Andy T
Apr 19th, 2005, 09:26 PM
CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH
LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
ON THE PASTORAL CARE OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS


"Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.
Therefore special concern and pastoral attention should be directed toward those who have this condition, lest they be led to believe that the living out of this orientation in homosexual activity is a morally acceptable option. It is not."

.............

It is only in the marital relationship that the use of the sexual faculty can be morally good. A person engaging in homosexual behaviour therefore acts immorally.
To chose someone of the same sex for one's sexual activity is to annul the rich symbolism and meaning, not to mention the goals, of the Creator's sexual design. Homosexual activity is not a complementary union, able to transmit life; and so it thwarts the call to a life of that form of self-giving which the Gospel says is the essence of Christian living. This does not mean that homosexual persons are not often generous and giving of themselves; but when they engage in homosexual activity they confirm within themselves a disordered sexual inclination which is essentially self-indulgent."

..............

"As in every conversion from evil, the abandonment of homosexual activity will require a profound collaboration of the individual with God's liberating grace."

Given at Rome, 1 October 1986.

JOSEPH CARDINAL RATZINGER
Prefect

Hulet
Apr 19th, 2005, 09:30 PM
He can stay 10 years !
Doubt it. Of course, miracles happen in the Catholic church, but I see us back at the same position in about five years. Which is ofcourse a "good" news for the media. At least two weeks of dedicated viewers, pope's special-edition-magazine buyers, etc.

Mase
Apr 19th, 2005, 09:33 PM
"they call him...."

well he selected it himself ;)

name is kind of political oppinion or course he wan't to follow, a bit surprising for me, I expected Pius :angel:

Point well taken, I adjusted the title... ;)

KoOlMaNsEaN
Apr 19th, 2005, 09:34 PM
im glad cardinal joseph ratzinger is the new pope. I find it weird the name he picked Pope Benedict XVI. Benedict hasnt been used since the early 1900's. He looks like an authoritive figure to me and it was great to see him smile when he came out :) He is conservative which will anger people but it makes people happy that he is conservative(people such as me) to enforce the catholic church more :D

ClaudiaZ-S
Apr 19th, 2005, 09:37 PM
they has chosen him quickly because they know they will be there in 5 years!

gentenaire
Apr 19th, 2005, 09:55 PM
More from Ratzinger's doctrine:

"One who denies a truth which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith, or who calls it into doubt, or who totally repudiates the Christian faith, and does not retract it after having been warned, is to be punished as a heretic or an apostate with major excommunication..."


so much for reaching out to other faiths, eh!

Josh
Apr 19th, 2005, 10:18 PM
:lol:

http://www.francesco.biz/papa.jpg

Mase
Apr 19th, 2005, 10:22 PM
Ok Josh thats too funny, hahahaha!

crazillo
Apr 19th, 2005, 10:26 PM
:lol:

http://www.francesco.biz/papa.jpg


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

And others are banned.......

Yasmine
Apr 19th, 2005, 10:36 PM
great one Josh! :clap2: :lol:

Pszczelny
Apr 19th, 2005, 10:37 PM
:lol:

http://www.francesco.biz/papa.jpg

on upper picture is Benedykt XVI :worship:
on lower is you? :confused:

XaDavK_Kapri
Apr 19th, 2005, 10:41 PM
:lol:

http://www.francesco.biz/papa.jpg
:haha:

Seriously though, I was happy a new Pope had been chosen. After reading his philosophies about many subjects though, it's about the worst choice there could have been... :rolleyes: Stuck-up catholics get on my nerves. I am a catholic, but I believe that this religion needs to open up a bit. With him, it's about the last thing that'll happen. I'm really disappointed. No women, no gays, no condoms... Pathetic and terrible for catholicism. And they say they want to appeal to the young generation! Please :rolleyes: I sometimes wonder in what kind of world these people think they live...

XaDavK_Kapri
Apr 19th, 2005, 10:45 PM
on upper picture is Benedykt XVI :worship:
on lower is you? :confused:
No!! I think what he was trying to say was that the guy from the upper picture (The Pope) looks like the guy below (Some monster). oh, some people, we need to explain them everything :) :hug: :lol: *this was sarcasm* :)

Pszczelny
Apr 19th, 2005, 10:50 PM
No!! I think what he was trying to say was that the guy from the upper picture (The Pope) looks like the guy below (Some monster). oh, some people, we need to explain them everything :) :hug: :lol: *this was sarcasm* :)

oh thank you :tape:

Hagar
Apr 19th, 2005, 10:51 PM
:lol:

http://www.francesco.biz/papa.jpg

AAAAAGGGGGHHHHHRRRRR!!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Joana
Apr 19th, 2005, 11:30 PM
At least John Paul II looked like a loveable little old man. This one is really scary. :unsure:
I don't like his views, but it's not like I really care. This isn't a Catholic country and anyway our religious leaders as conservative as he is.

SelesFan70
Apr 19th, 2005, 11:40 PM
Ah, thank Martin Luther for the Reformation...and my own reformation from it all. :worship:

Rocketta
Apr 20th, 2005, 12:06 AM
Many Third World Catholics Disappointed

1 hour, 55 minutes ago
http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/my/addtomyyahoo3.gif (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/addtomy/*http://add.my.yahoo.com/content?id=6082&.src=yn&.done=http%3a//news.yahoo.com/news%3ftmpl=story%26cid=518%26ncid=2357%26e=12%26u =/ap/20050419/ap_on_re_eu/pope_third_world_disappointment) Europe - AP (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/addtomy/*http://add.my.yahoo.com/content?id=6082&.src=yn&.done=http%3a//news.yahoo.com/news%3ftmpl=story%26cid=518%26ncid=2357%26e=12%26u =/ap/20050419/ap_on_re_eu/pope_third_world_disappointment)



By JOHN RICE, Associated Press Writer

TEGUCIGALPA, Honduras - From the shanty-covered hillsides of Tegucigalpa to the cosmopolitan streets of Buenos Aires and dusty villages in Africa, hopes had been high that the new pope would be someone intimately tied to the developing world and its challenges.

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20050419/thumb.cag13504192042.vatican_pope_cag135.jpg (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050419/481/cag13504192042)
AP Photo (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050419/481/cag13504192042)


Disappointment was evident when a German, Joseph Ratzinger — now Pope Benedict XVI — was chosen instead.



"I would have liked someone different: younger, with new ideas and perhaps with darker skin like us," said Alfonso Mercado, an ice cream seller in Pereira, Colombia. Many in the city in Colombia's coffee-growing region hoped Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, who preached in Pereira for 22 years, would be chosen.



Across the developing world, there was barely disguised disappointment — particularly among many Latin Americans, who make up roughly half the world's Catholics — that one of their own was not elected to lead the Roman Catholic Church.



"It should have been a Latino," said Gloria Vazquez, a 50-year-old housewife in Tegucigalpa. Yet she answered the call of the bells to a Mass in honor of the new pope at the Honduran capital's little cathedral.



"What are we going to do?" she asked. "We're Catholics."



The chimes sent waves of pigeons wheeling above the church, where dozens of the faithful had been listening to a radio broadcast of the papal announcement that echoed off the stained, peeling walls — a testimony to the poverty of this part of the Catholic world.



Julio Lancellotti, a priest who works with homeless and abandoned children in Sao Paulo, Brazil, frowned when he heard the papal announcement.



"We accept the pope who has been chosen," he said. "I accept in silence. We priests can have no opinion."



Many believed a pope from the developing world would be more focused on its problems, including poverty and the expansion of evangelical religions.



"Ratzinger's presence is a disaster for Latin America," snapped Bernardo Barranco, a Mexican sociologist and expert on religion, during a telephone interview from Rome.



"He took it upon himself to liquidate liberation theology. He didn't understand Latin America," said Barranco, referring to the blend of the Gospel with radical politics that rose in this region.



In Africa, the Vatican (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/pope_third_world_disappointment/14924013/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22Vatican%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw)'s announcement dashed hopes for those who were pulling for Cardinal Francis Arinze of Nigeria.



In Onitsha, the city in southeastern Nigeria where Arinze once was bishop, people gathered in restaurants and shops — wherever they could find a television — to watch the announcement.



"The real Catholics of the world now are in Africa and Latin America, and it would have strengthened the church to have a pope from one of those places," said Okwudili Otti, a 45-year-old businessman.



Mary Ekpe, a 30-year-old Nigerian banker, said she never really expected an African pope to be elected.



"I know Europeans and Americans are not ready for that yet," Ekpe said. "But I thought they would've elected somebody from Latin America."







But she added: "I see something positive in the fact that they chose a German instead of an Italian. It shows at least the church is not returning to the tradition of having only Italian popes."

Matthew Hassan Kukah, a prominent Nigerian priest in the capital Abuja, said the faithful must not be disappointed.

"This is not the finals of the World Cup," Kukah said. "The sentiments are understandable, but this is the Catholic Church. We give thanks to God."

Colombian Bishop Jaime Prieto acknowledged that "we all had secret hopes that the next pope would be one of us." But he said Ratzinger's choice signals continued Vatican support for efforts to bring peace to Colombia, bloodied by a guerrilla war in which dozens of priests have been killed.

Monsignor Alejandro Goic, president of the Chilean Bishops Conference, defended the new pope, saying he "has a profound knowledge of Latin America" and speaks Spanish.

Marlyn Caceres, a 26-year-old selling candles, wooden crosses and rosaries outside La Candelaria Church in Caracas, Venezuela, said she remained hopeful Ratzinger will be a good pope.

"They say the man is humble. I hope he will be like the pope who died," said Caceres. "May it be as God wishes."

__ Associated Press writers Kim Housego in Bogota, Colombia; Margarita Martinez in Pereira, Colombia; Eduardo Castillo in Mexico City; Ian James in Caracas, Venezuela; Dulue Mbachu in Onitsha, Nigeria; and Stan Lehman in Sao Paulo, Brazil, contributed to this report.

Rocketta
Apr 20th, 2005, 12:09 AM
I had no idea that half the world's catholics are found in Latin America? :eek:

Mariangelina
Apr 20th, 2005, 12:14 AM
Well, it's not who I would have voted for, and I can't help but feel his leadership is not the best thing for the Church right now. I would feel the same if I were more conservative; I think he's too into doctrine and enforcement rather than the deeper essence of the faith- love,compassion, and understanding, and all the poor, struggling Catholics in the world need a leader who can represent them, rather than more of an orthodox watchdog type. I disagree with Arinze's conservative beliefs, but i feel he would have been a far better papal choice.

However, I guess it's all part of God's plan, and i can't hope to understand why it happened. I wish Ratzinger the best and hope he exceeds my expectations of him and has a good, loving pontificate.

XaDavK_Kapri
Apr 20th, 2005, 12:28 AM
"What are we going to do?" she asked. "We're Catholics."

Gosh, what a terribly submissive comment :sad:

selking
Apr 20th, 2005, 12:38 AM
Heil Ratzinger...Flipping hitler youth is our new pope.

martirogi
Apr 20th, 2005, 03:26 AM
the more i hear the more he sounds like the antichirst. people are born muslim and buddist and he condemns them. whos to say that hes right and they're wrong. how can he think that catholicism is the only way and everyone else is damned to hell. its just so closed minded. :sad: :sad: :sad: women are unequal, condoms are wrong, gays are the devil. how can these be the principles of a holy man.

Infiniti2001
Apr 20th, 2005, 03:43 AM
the more i hear the more he sounds like the antichirst. people are born muslim and buddist and he condemns them. whos to say that hes right and they're wrong. how can he think that catholicism is the only way and everyone else is damned to hell. its just so closed minded. :sad: :sad: :sad: women are unequal, condoms are wrong, gays are the devil. how can these be the principles of a holy man.

Troubling, isn't it? The more I read too , the more charming he gets :tape: This guy is a homophobic woman-hater who was openly working for Bush's election from the Vatican. :rolleyes: He felt that the whole child abuse thing should have been kept secret for crying out loud.

From americablog.blogspot.com



Ratzinger accused of cover-up in effort to shelter pedophile priests
by John in DC - 4/19/2005 07:51:00 PM

From ABC News:

"[Father Marcial Macie] pushed my hand onto his penis. And I didn't know anything about masturbation," Juan Vaca, who was first abused when he was 11 years old, told ABCNEWS. "And he says, 'You don't know how to do it. Let me show you.' And he gets my penis himself and starts to masturbate me. I was in shock."
Now read the rest of the story:

Then, four years ago, some of the men tried a last ditch effort, taking the unusual step of filing a lawsuit in the Vatican's secretive court, seeking Macial's excommunication.

Once again they laid out their evidence, but it was another futile effort — an effort the men say was blocked by one of the most powerful cardinals in the Vatican.

The accusers say Vatican-based Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who heads the Vatican office to safeguard the faith and the morals of the church, quietly made the lawsuit go away and shelved it. There was no investigation and the accusers weren't asked a single question or asked for a statement.

He was appointed by the pope to investigate the entire sex abuse scandal in the church in recent days. But when approached by ABCNEWS in Rome last week with questions of allegations against Maciel, Ratzinger became visibly upset and actually slapped this reporter's hand.

"Come to me when the moment is given," Ratzinger told ABCNEWS, "not yet."

"Cardinal Ratzinger is sheltering Maciel, protecting him," said Berry, who expressed concerns that no response was being given to the allegations against the man charged with sex abuse. "These men knelt and kissed the ring of Cardinal Ratzinger when they filed the case in Rome. And a year-and-a-half later, he takes those accusations and aborts them, just stuffs them."
The cardinals knew all of this, yet they still chose Ratzinger. They had a choice. They chose evil. Unfortunately, this is what the leadership of the Catholic Church has come to, and become. In a word, hubris. In two words, Tom DeLay.

Ratzinger defends pedophiles
by John in DC - 4/19/2005 06:36:00 PM

Ratzinger to the Catholic News Service in 2002, commenting on the Catholic church pedophile priest scandal:

"I am personally convinced that the constant presence in the press of the sins of Catholic priests, especially in the United States, is a planned campaign, as the percentage of these offences among priests is not higher than in other categories, and perhaps it is even lower."

"In the United States, there is constant news on this topic, but less than 1% of priests are guilty of acts of this type," he said. "The constant presence of these news items does not correspond to the objectivity of the information nor to the statistical objectivity of the facts.

"Therefore, one comes to the conclusion that it is intentional, manipulated, that there is a desire to discredit the Church. It is a logical and well-founded conclusion."
Like I said. Talk like a Hitler Youth, write like a Hitler Youth.

PointBlank
Apr 20th, 2005, 03:53 AM
Yeah, since John Paul is such a popular name in Poland. :tape: :rolleyes:

Translated it could be. How many non-Catholics no that it isnt there name? I didnt know until the old Pope died.

Da Bizzness
Apr 20th, 2005, 03:57 AM
i'll give him a year before he has a heart attack.

what's the point of picking some old fart that's not gonna be around very long?

PointBlank
Apr 20th, 2005, 03:58 AM
the more i hear the more he sounds like the antichirst. people are born muslim and buddist and he condemns them. whos to say that hes right and they're wrong. how can he think that catholicism is the only way and everyone else is damned to hell. its just so closed minded. :sad: :sad: :sad: women are unequal, condoms are wrong, gays are the devil. how can these be the principles of a holy man.

And God loves everyone..ugh :rolleyes: ..Religons confuse me..and Im gay and I dont understand why Im such a follower to Islam..but its what keeps me going..

PointBlank
Apr 20th, 2005, 03:58 AM
And you expected him to be a member of Resistance at an age of 18, right?

There were younger. :rolleyes:

KoOlMaNsEaN
Apr 20th, 2005, 04:25 AM
Religion shouldnt have to change for the world.... If you don't like it then move onto another religion and stop complaining about what the roman catholic church stands for. If we change the religion too much then it will go farther and farther away from the views of God and Jesus Christ...

Crazy Canuck
Apr 20th, 2005, 04:25 AM
the more i hear the more he sounds like the antichirst. people are born muslim and buddist and he condemns them. whos to say that hes right and they're wrong. how can he think that catholicism is the only way and everyone else is damned to hell. its just so closed minded. :sad: :sad: :sad: women are unequal, condoms are wrong, gays are the devil. how can these be the principles of a holy man.
People who preach that crap can call themselves "holy" all they want. They aren't :p And I'm sure there is a cold place in their imagined Hell for them when they are done here.

I'll leave the thread now :angel:

M2k
Apr 20th, 2005, 04:52 AM
Many Third World Catholics Disappointed

"It should have been a Latino," said Gloria Vazquez,


Awww Gloria Vazquez --->:hug: lol



"I know Europeans and Americans are not ready for that yet," Ekpe said.

How true~ :sad:

Tennis Fool
Apr 20th, 2005, 05:01 AM
:lol:

http://www.francesco.biz/papa.jpg

:haha: :haha:

You know, I was thinking THE SAME THING and then I came to the board :haha: :haha:

M2k
Apr 20th, 2005, 05:08 AM
I had no idea that half the world's catholics are found in Latin America? :eek:

The religious faith in latin America is both a blessing and a burden. As a latino I can tell you of beautiful religious traditions that take part in the latino community. Some of them so pure in essence...it's inspiring. :) but at the same time I have witness horrible acts done in the name of god.

M2k
Apr 20th, 2005, 05:18 AM
Religion shouldnt have to change for the world.... If you don't like it then move onto another religion and stop complaining about what the roman catholic church stands for. If we change the religion too much then it will go farther and farther away from the views of God and Jesus Christ...

--->:bs: ...many years of loyalty to the Catholic church have earn me the right to be upset if I want to.

Tati & Dani
Apr 20th, 2005, 06:56 AM
On a Belgian forum , a lot people post that Ratzinger is a Nazi and was a friend of Adolf Hitler, he was a member of the HitlerJugend and raped women in the past.

From Nazi to Pope, a sieg heil story :rolleyes:

Scotso
Apr 20th, 2005, 07:24 AM
Yes, he was a Nazi. What a comfort to us Jews everywhere! All hail the wise Catholic church, and our new Nazi pope! :rolleyes:

Fingon
Apr 20th, 2005, 07:40 AM
well, I can't really say I am dissapointed since I am an atheist.

I can't say I am surprised, as somebody pointed out, nearly all cardinals were elected by John Paul II and some people believed that in the last years of John Paul II Ratzinger was the real man in charge, due to John Paul II's health.

In any case, I do believe Ratzinger will damage the Church, not because of his conservative views, today catholics are catholics and really don't follow much what the Church says, they go to mass (some of them) and maybe go to see the Pope if he visits their country but that's about it. Really, how many catholics really don't use condoms or other ways of birth control? or follow the Church's teaching in any other way.

We are not in the Middle Age, the influence of the Pope has been decreasing for centuries now, and at present times is nearly nil, they can't choose imperors or imposse their will, they are not consulted in world affairs, they drive huge crowds but that's about it.

the problem for the Church with the new Pope is more image than ideas. John Paul II looked like a nice old man that every one loved, despite his conservatism, Ratzinger doesn't look anything like that, he won't get people to automatically like him, and in today's world, image is everything.

The Catholic Church doesn't change easily, only when they are forced to, doesn't matter who the Pope is or whether he is conservative or not. Something like the protestant reform made them change, anything short of that won't change anything. Only if they perceive they are really losing it they will be willing to change, and I think the general climate favours right wingers now and the Church is not different.

Pszczelny
Apr 20th, 2005, 07:44 AM
Ratzinger was in hitler jugend, all young boys had to be there. Like in Soviet Union all young people had to belong to komsomol. You must understand those times before you call someone nazi.

bionic71
Apr 20th, 2005, 07:50 AM
:worship:


:lol:

http://www.francesco.biz/papa.jpg

Scotso
Apr 20th, 2005, 08:04 AM
Ratzinger was in hitler jugend, all young boys had to be there. Like in Soviet Union all young people had to belong to komsomol. You must understand those times before you call someone nazi.

The "I was just following orders" argument is total bullshit. A true man of God, a man who was to eventually become Pope, would have had nothing to do with that. He would have refused even if it meant sacrificing his life.

Forgiveness is fine, but electing a man Pope who was a Nazi is beyond belief.

HectorMagnus
Apr 20th, 2005, 09:00 AM
The "I was just following orders" argument is total bullshit. A true man of God, a man who was to eventually become Pope, would have had nothing to do with that. He would have refused even if it meant sacrificing his life.

Forgiveness is fine, but electing a man Pope who was a Nazi is beyond belief.


well, when you're 14 your will is will of your parents not yours....I can't see there was ever somebody who knows what he wants from very young age....
it's not good to say he was capable to refuse....

ClaudiaZ-S
Apr 20th, 2005, 09:11 AM
I don't understand these critisms ! Did U do the same things if it was Jew or Islam religion ? I think : "No!"

Veegeta
Apr 20th, 2005, 09:20 AM
what do you care, you're atheist, no? I'm very happy that Cardinal Ratzinger is the new Pope. He is a natural leader. Hooray for Pope Benedict. :worship:

Nothing

O.......your sig

Josh
Apr 20th, 2005, 11:08 AM
I loved Cardinal Danneels reacting to his election : "What I think about Cardinal Ratzinger? Well I'm gonna keep my feelings to myself but you can look up what I said about him in the past and my feelings haven't changed yet. Besides you all know who Cardinal Ratzinger is and what he stands for."

:yeah:

Hagar
Apr 20th, 2005, 11:23 AM
I loved Cardinal Danneels reacting to his election : "What I think about Cardinal Ratzinger? Well I'm gonna keep my feelings to myself but you can look up what I said about him in the past and my feelings haven't changed yet. Besides you all know who Cardinal Ratzinger is and what he stands for."

:yeah:

That is a very outspoken reaction from the normally not exactly outspoken Danneels. I'm pretty sure he did not vote for Ratzinger.

Mariangelina
Apr 20th, 2005, 11:29 AM
I'm hardly a fan, but I feel obligated to point out that you didn't join the Hitler Youth like the Boy Scouts. All teenage boys were basically members by definition, from what I've read. And you must remember that the Nazis weren't exactly filling in 14-year-old boys about the atrocities they were committing.

However, Cardinal Ratzinger's early exposure to dictatorship does seem to have rubbed off on him a bit.

And KoolManSteven- :bs: I personally think the current Catholic Church has dragged its message way too far away from Jesus' love, compassion, and justice for all who crossed his path into rigidly enforcing doctrine that is based on tradition more than logic or love. Am I going to fight this? Hell yes! Do you think God whispers in a bishop's ear every time they denounce homosexuality or women priests? People who are truly religious and love God should not be led around like passive little sheep by a bunch of mortal, celibate old men. They should think, they should question, and if something's wrong, they should protest.

Halardfan
Apr 20th, 2005, 11:46 AM
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition...

http://www.boomspeed.com/attachefan/si8abc.jpg

Ok, so maybe NOW we do... :eek:

XaDavK_Kapri
Apr 20th, 2005, 12:06 PM
I'm hardly a fan, but I feel obligated to point out that you didn't join the Hitler Youth like the Boy Scouts. All teenage boys were basically members by definition, from what I've read. And you must remember that the Nazis weren't exactly filling in 14-year-old boys about the atrocities they were committing.

However, Cardinal Ratzinger's early exposure to dictatorship does seem to have rubbed off on him a bit.

And KoolManSteven- :bs: I personally think the current Catholic Church has dragged its message way too far away from Jesus' love, compassion, and justice for all who crossed his path into rigidly enforcing doctrine that is based on tradition more than logic or love. Am I going to fight this? Hell yes! Do you think God whispers in a bishop's ear every time they denounce homosexuality or women priests? People who are truly religious and love God should not be led around like passive little sheep by a bunch of mortal, celibate old men. They should think, they should question, and if something's wrong, they should protest.
:worship:

XaDavK_Kapri
Apr 20th, 2005, 12:11 PM
Religion shouldnt have to change for the world.... If you don't like it then move onto another religion and stop complaining about what the roman catholic church stands for. If we change the religion too much then it will go farther and farther away from the views of God and Jesus Christ...
What kind of thinking is that ?! :eek:

~ The Leopard ~
Apr 20th, 2005, 12:13 PM
Funny thread. :lol:

Some people think that "Karol Wojtyla" can be translated into English as "John Paul". Some people think you are a Nazi because, at the height of Hitler's power, you got dragooned into the Hitler youth when you were only, like, 14. Some people imagine that 40-something baby boomers and Gen-Xers who grew up on the tail end of electric Kool-Aid and the summer of love are inherently more conservative than 20-somethings who grew up on Reagan, Thatcher, and "greed is good".

Oh well, getting back to Ratzinger ... It's not the choice I would have hoped for, but thank Thor I'm an atheist.

Tati & Dani
Apr 20th, 2005, 12:27 PM
I don't understand these critisms ! Did U do the same things if it was Jew or Islam religion ? I think : "No!"

I have nothing against Jew religion because nobody in europe have problem with jewish people, their always friendly

crazillo
Apr 20th, 2005, 12:30 PM
I just can't believe what I am reading here.

All Jews have found a new victim now...... Someone they can blame again.

But what you are doing in Israel with the Palestines is any better??? :rolleyes:

Every year many people in Germany go and say "yes, we are guilty. We know what we did" and we know that it won't happen again here. We have build sooo many relicts that show our past so that we will never forget it.

But now all the fucking people come out and say "a Nazi as a pope, great." In Germany, nobody said ANYTHING, because otherwise they would have been killed. Yes, killed. The grandfather of my grannie was killed because he listened to an English radio programme. NOBODY said ANYTHING and it has been reported that his parents were AGAINST Hitler, but you had no choice. But for sure, you guys are going to be prejudiced against any German again. Sure, it might be the way it is. Even if my buddie from a game made a mistake in the rankings a jewish member of the board said he did so on purpose and that he still has the killer blood in himself..... WTF is that???

If you don't stop complaining about us, then you should see what we are now -- a way better country than you are with your war against the Palestines.


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Tati & Dani
Apr 20th, 2005, 12:33 PM
Crazillo , i have my own opinion about this, but the jewish people in israel only react on the horrible things of the palestine people, they have the right to defend themself.

GoDominique
Apr 20th, 2005, 12:44 PM
I just can't believe what I am reading here.

All Jews have found a new victim now...... Someone they can blame again.

But what you are doing in Israel with the Palestines is any better??? :rolleyes:

Every year many people in Germany go and say "yes, we are guilty. We know what we did" and we know that it won't happen again here. We have build sooo many relicts that show our past so that we will never forget it.

But now all the fucking people come out and say "a Nazi as a pope, great." In Germany, nobody said ANYTHING, because otherwise they would have been killed. Yes, killed. The grandfather of my grannie was killed because he listened to an English radio programme. NOBODY said ANYTHING and it has been reported that his parents were AGAINST Hitler, but you had no choice. But for sure, you guys are going to be prejudiced against any German again. Sure, it might be the way it is. Even if my buddie S-T-E-V-E made a mistake in the rankings a jewish member of the board said he did so on purpose and that he still has the killer blood in himself..... WTF is that???

If you don't stop complaining about us, then you should see what we are now -- a way better country than you are with your war against the Palestines.


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
That last sentence is very unnecessary. Don't elevate Germany above Israel or any other country. :)
And not all Jewish people live in Israel. :)

crazillo
Apr 20th, 2005, 12:46 PM
That last sentence is very unnecessary. Don't elevate Germany above Israel or any other country. :)
And not all Jewish people live in Israel. :)


Since I am not German, it doesn't matter, does it? :)

GoDominique
Apr 20th, 2005, 12:48 PM
Since I am not German, it doesn't matter, does it? :)
Didn't you say "we"?

Eigenlob stinkt. :)

crazillo
Apr 20th, 2005, 12:49 PM
Didn't you say "we"?

Eigenlob stinkt. :)


1. Staatsangehöigkeit ist Kanadisch und 2. ist Deutsch. :)

I'll correct it: It's not any better..... ;)

GoDominique
Apr 20th, 2005, 12:51 PM
1. Staatsangehöigkeit ist Kanadisch und 2. ist Deutsch. :)Doesn't matter, you said "we are a better country" = you are part of Germany. :)

crazillo
Apr 20th, 2005, 12:59 PM
Doesn't matter, you said "we are a better country" = you are part of Germany. :)

Na, dann erwarte ich mal in meiner Zelle die Verbannung. :)

Andy T
Apr 20th, 2005, 01:07 PM
Any German person born after WWII has no more connection with the events that happened in that country in the Nazi period than any other person born anywhere else in the world. That means all german people under 60 - and let's make it 75 to include the kids of that time.

Lord Nelson
Apr 20th, 2005, 01:18 PM
As a Catholic & a Star Wars fan I think that Josh's comparision between Benedict and Palaptine is funny. Palpatine is actually one of my favourite characters. So please don't be offended by Josh.

Markus
Apr 20th, 2005, 01:22 PM
:lol:

http://www.francesco.biz/papa.jpg


:devil: :lol:

Gallofa
Apr 20th, 2005, 04:36 PM
As a Catholic & a Star Wars fan I think that Josh's comparision between Benedict and Palaptine is funny. Palpatine is actually one of my favourite characters. So please don't be offended by Josh.

While not all that funny, it is probably more judgemental than offensive. Of course, after reading the posts from those wishing him a swift death within the next month, the pictures could be considered a nice addition to the thread.

GoDominique
Apr 20th, 2005, 05:47 PM
Na, dann erwarte ich mal in meiner Zelle die Verbannung. :)
Versteh ich nicht. Aber ist ja nicht das erste Mal. :)

Cassius
Apr 20th, 2005, 06:01 PM
Well, "God's rottweiler" it is then.
He was also called the "Panzer Cardinal".

I've no other reason to post in this thread other than to say that.
Bye:wavey:

crazillo
Apr 20th, 2005, 06:26 PM
Versteh ich nicht. Aber ist ja nicht das erste Mal. :)

Erklärungsbedarf.^^

Steff_forever
Apr 20th, 2005, 06:41 PM
I just can hold the Vatican in contempt for its decision. The majority of the cardinals still are frightened of the world/the reality outside. Everything since the 16th century has changed around them but they won't. They see themselves as a rock in our times. But rocks erode as I have learned. See sooner the better.

sorry for all catholics who believed that this church will change its attitude towards birth control, the protection from aids, homosexual love, the origin of life, the dignity of women ...

sorry German PapaRatzi lovers, this Pontifex (which he isn't cause he won't build bridges to the more liberal thinkers) is a shadow of the Middle Ages and after his death in maybe 2 to 10 years another ideological dinosaur will appear.

Lord Nelson
Apr 20th, 2005, 07:12 PM
Pope Benedict is a welcome choice for the developing world. The developing world wants a Pope but from their homeland. But they don't care if he is a con or a lib. Remember, Anglican church is deeply divided too between lib West and con in Africa. The Pope has my full-backing snd I'm truly happy at his nomination. I do hope that the next Pope will come from Africa because Catholicism is competing with Islam but is expanding a a fast rate-we are converting a lot of animists such as Cardinal Arinze whose parents were animists.

Hantuchov
Apr 20th, 2005, 08:11 PM
:lol:

http://www.francesco.biz/papa.jpg


LMFAO!!! :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:

Joana
Apr 20th, 2005, 09:31 PM
I just can't believe what I am reading here.

All Jews have found a new victim now...... Someone they can blame again.

But what you are doing in Israel with the Palestines is any better??? :rolleyes:

Every year many people in Germany go and say "yes, we are guilty. We know what we did" and we know that it won't happen again here. We have build sooo many relicts that show our past so that we will never forget it.

But now all the fucking people come out and say "a Nazi as a pope, great." In Germany, nobody said ANYTHING, because otherwise they would have been killed. Yes, killed. The grandfather of my grannie was killed because he listened to an English radio programme. NOBODY said ANYTHING and it has been reported that his parents were AGAINST Hitler, but you had no choice. But for sure, you guys are going to be prejudiced against any German again. Sure, it might be the way it is. Even if my buddie from a game made a mistake in the rankings a jewish member of the board said he did so on purpose and that he still has the killer blood in himself..... WTF is that???

If you don't stop complaining about us, then you should see what we are now -- a way better country than you are with your war against the Palestines.


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I see you're very fond of Jews. :)

harloo
Apr 20th, 2005, 09:37 PM
The pope is a symbol of idol worship which I don't agree with when it comes to religious leaders. While watching the live coverage I realized how those in the streets were praising the Pope.

This type of cult like atmosphere is seen in many super churches here in the states. It's quite sad if you asked me because I only believe their is ONE God.

Lord Nelson
Apr 20th, 2005, 10:07 PM
I'm the opposite of you. I don't really believe in God but I still feel linked with my Christian heritage. To me hell and heaven don't exist as does re-incarnation. We only live one live which is on this beautiful planet. I'm happy that I won't live here in the next few centuries where Earth will have many extinct animals, rainforests will all but disappear, human overpopulation will be like in 'Blade Runner' etc..The world would be ascary place.

harloo
Apr 20th, 2005, 10:23 PM
I'm the opposite of you. I don't really believe in God but I still feel linked with my Christian heritage. To me hell and heaven don't exist as does re-incarnation. We only live one live which is on this beautiful planet. I'm happy that I won't live here in the next few centuries where Earth will have many extinct animals, rainforests will all but disappear, human overpopulation will be like in 'Blade Runner' etc..The world would be ascary place.

Interesting. I do believe that heaven exists, but their is no hell in the sense of a fiery pit that torments forever and ever.

I believe that on final judgement day you will go before God and your soul will be destroyed in a bottomless pit if your name is not written in the book of life.

We are going off on a tangent, lets get back to the pope.;) ;)

apoet29
Apr 20th, 2005, 10:34 PM
I just read an interesting article about the pope where his former students state that he is an arch conservative and that he is a holdover pope and nothing more.

I guess even in death John Paul still holds the reigns!

crazillo
Apr 20th, 2005, 11:07 PM
I see you're very fond of Jews. :)

I am friend with many of them, i.e. PointBlank from the board or so. But when people start to say things like that I don't see a reason not to answer the same way.

Rocketta
Apr 20th, 2005, 11:08 PM
I just read an interesting article about the pope where his former students state that he is an arch conservative and that he is a holdover pope and nothing more.

I guess even in death John Paul still holds the reigns!

This may be the article

New Pope's Ex-Students Express Skepticism

2 hours, 3 minutes ago
http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/my/addtomyyahoo3.gif (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/addtomy/*http://add.my.yahoo.com/content?id=6073&.src=yn&.done=http%3a//news.yahoo.com/news%3ftmpl=story%26cid=535%26ncid=535%26e=3%26u=/ap/20050420/ap_on_re_eu/pope_s_university_1) World - AP (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/addtomy/*http://add.my.yahoo.com/content?id=6073&.src=yn&.done=http%3a//news.yahoo.com/news%3ftmpl=story%26cid=535%26ncid=535%26e=3%26u=/ap/20050420/ap_on_re_eu/pope_s_university_1)


By MATT MOORE, Associated Press Writer

TUEBINGEN, Germany - In the cafeteria at Tuebingen University's theology department, students swapping lecture notes on a rainy Wednesday weren't preoccupied by their looming exams.

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20050420/thumb.xor11404201902.vatican_new_pope_xor114.jpg (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050420/481/xor11404201902)
AP Photo (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050420/481/xor11404201902)


Instead, they were concerned about where their school's most famous former professor would take the Roman Catholic Church as Pope Benedict XVI. And they didn't exude optimism.



"It's going to be interesting to see what he does," said Thomas Burchard, a 20-year-old Protestant studying for the ministry. "He's very conservative and, like the Catholic Church, he goes against what the Bible says."



Fellow student Simon Reinitz, clad in black, his hair long and a stud piercing his left eyebrow, declared that Ratzinger was a caretaker pope, nothing more.



"Why not an African pope? Why not a Latin American pope? The church will make changes," Reinitz said. "This is just someone to hold over the conservatives."



Students and faculty at Tuebingen remain skeptical of Ratzinger, who left in 1969 partly out of disenchantment with the Marxist enthusiasm then sweeping the campus. The university remains the outstanding center of liberal theological study in Germany, and trains both Roman Catholics and Protestants.



They are proud that a former professor has gone to such great heights, but criticize his actions as the Vatican (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/pope_s_university/14934879/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22Vatican%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw)'s chief enforcer of doctrinal orthodoxy. Those include decrees that many blame for barring priests from counseling pregnant teens about options including abortion and blocking German Catholics from sharing Communion with Lutherans.



Even the pontiff's former assistant, Bernd Jochen Hilberath, responded cautiously to his former teacher's elevation. Hilberath, who holds the same chair that Ratzinger once held, said the world's Catholics and other Christians are on edge, waiting to see if the papacy will change him.



"Joseph Ratzinger is a multidimensional person. He's not one-sided, but he has potential, it depends on his circle of advisers," Hilberath said.



While critics contend that the choice of the 78-year-old Ratzinger may signal a caretaker papacy, Hilberath said it is possible the German pontiff may surprise them as he tackles the tough issues of abortion, the church's ban on contraception, the sex abuse scandals and the ordination of women.



"He's informed about the issues, the facts, the history," he said, careful to note that only the pontiff himself knows what he is thinking. "We hope that the pope is a pope who regards the perspectives of the Gospels, but is also helpful to people in contemporary life."



Ratzinger had a few things to say about Tuebingen as well in his memoirs. He departed after left-wing student upheavals rocked the campus, and his classes were at one point interrupted by sit-ins.



"The Marxist revolution ignited the entire university, it shook its foundations," he wrote in his memoirs. "Hope remained, but into the place of God stepped the party and with it a totalitarianism of atheist worship, which is ready to sacrifice all of humanity to its false god."



Hoping to escape the endless disruption and confrontation, and wanting to be closer to his brother, Georg, Ratzinger left Tuebingen for the University of Regensburg in his native Bavaria.



In a statement Tuesday, Tuebingen's most famous scholar, the controversial Swiss theologian Hans Kueng, called Ratzinger's election "an enormous disappointment for all those who hoped for a reformist and pastoral pope."



Kueng, who has lost his official license to teach Catholic theology but continues to teach anyway, was the one who urged the theology department to hire Ratzinger, who later criticized his writings.



He has said that at the time he perceived Ratzinger as more moderate than he was during his years in the Vatican. Several of Ratzinger's students at Regensburg have described him as open to other people's ideas and eager for wide-ranging discussion.







That has inspired hope that Pope Benedict may be different from Cardinal Ratzinger. "But we must wait and see, for experience shows that the papacy in the Catholic Church today is such a challenge that it can change anyone," Kueng wrote. "Let us therefore give him a chance: as with a president of the USA we should allow a pope 100 days to learn."

Lord Nelson
Apr 20th, 2005, 11:22 PM
well if you read carefully you would see that many of his ex-students are Protestants and naturally they will criticize.

GoDominique
Apr 20th, 2005, 11:24 PM
I just read an interesting article about the pope where his former students state that he is an arch conservative and that he is a holdover pope and nothing more.

I guess even in death John Paul still holds the reigns!
Holdover? He seems to be at pretty good health so ... :shrug:

Infiniti2001
Apr 21st, 2005, 12:26 AM
Pope Benedict is a welcome choice for the developing world. The developing world wants a Pope but from their homeland. But they don't care if he is a con or a lib. Remember, Anglican church is deeply divided too between lib West and con in Africa. The Pope has my full-backing snd I'm truly happy at his nomination. I do hope that the next Pope will come from Africa because Catholicism is competing with Islam but is expanding a a fast rate-we are converting a lot of animists such as Cardinal Arinze whose parents were animists.

The Catholic chuch is isolating the American and European Catholics and growing in Africa where they are partly responsible for the spread of Aids. :tape: and you know the dying people are not going to pay for those embroidered robes that cost thousands of dollars. In every way, Rat ehhh Pope Benedict is a catastrophe for the developing world---
while Western countries will just pull even further away from the church and take their money with them.

I'm sorry, but I cannot turn a blind eye and be all happy with this nomination of a man who deliberately shielded child molesters and claimed the whole thing was a liberal media plot. He is also directly responsible for the election of George Bush :mad:-- shilling for a candidate in a political race is inappropriate and absolutely shameless. :o

Lord Nelson
Apr 21st, 2005, 01:14 AM
Pope Benedict XVI responsible for election of Bush? YOu must be kidding. Pope John Paul II was against the war in Iraq. In any case it's ok because a) I was for the Iraqi war (as I was for Nato intervention in ex-Yugoslavia) b) I strongly supported Bush in power. He got rid of Saddam, Arisitide, Taliban (as an Indian I feriously opposed that wretched regime), Charles Taylor. Mind you I like Clinton too for helping get rid of Milosevic. I wonder who is next?Hopefully that schmuck who likes to wear platform shoes because he hates being short, who fears flying and who is an unconditional fan of James Bond movies.

alexusjonesfan
Apr 21st, 2005, 02:17 AM
Pope Benedict XVI responsible for election of Bush? YOu must be kidding. Pope John Paul II was against the war in Iraq. In any case it's ok because a) I was for the Iraqi war (as I was for Nato intervention in ex-Yugoslavia) b) I strongly supported Bush in power. He got rid of Saddam, Arisitide, Taliban (as an Indian I feriously opposed that wretched regime), Charles Taylor. Mind you I like Clinton too for helping get rid of Milosevic. I wonder who is next?Hopefully that schmuck who likes to wear platform shoes because he hates being short, who fears flying and who is an unconditional fan of James Bond movies.

wow we get to learn so much about you from each post :drool:

PointBlank
Apr 21st, 2005, 04:39 AM
I just can't believe what I am reading here.

All Jews have found a new victim now...... Someone they can blame again.

But what you are doing in Israel with the Palestines is any better??? :rolleyes:

Every year many people in Germany go and say "yes, we are guilty. We know what we did" and we know that it won't happen again here. We have build sooo many relicts that show our past so that we will never forget it.

But now all the fucking people come out and say "a Nazi as a pope, great." In Germany, nobody said ANYTHING, because otherwise they would have been killed. Yes, killed. The grandfather of my grannie was killed because he listened to an English radio programme. NOBODY said ANYTHING and it has been reported that his parents were AGAINST Hitler, but you had no choice. But for sure, you guys are going to be prejudiced against any German again. Sure, it might be the way it is. Even if my buddie from a game made a mistake in the rankings a jewish member of the board said he did so on purpose and that he still has the killer blood in himself..... WTF is that???

If you don't stop complaining about us, then you should see what we are now -- a way better country than you are with your war against the Palestines.


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Our war against Palestine hasnt killed 6 million innocent Jews or Arabs..our numbers have never surpassed that..in about 50 years of war..that was a very ignorant post..besides me no one Israeli has posted in this thread so I take that comment directly at me..just like you are not really German but live there its like me from Israel..and all Jews found a victim :rolls:..most Jews dont even care or know about the fliggin Pope..or care less..and you take the words from 2 or 3 Jews and make it sound like thats what the whole religon thinks..being half Jew/and half Muslim I know that frankly I dont care but the fact he was in the Hitler Youth bothers me a bit but frankly what the fuck can I do..

PointBlank
Apr 21st, 2005, 04:41 AM
I take that last little bit out..it may have killed that many I dont know the numbers..I doubt it though..but those killed were not for technically "no" reason..we both are fighting for a land we think is ours..give and take you can fight back and forth over who rightfully owns it..but the British really left us to fight it out when they withdrew from the capital..

Lord Nelson
Apr 21st, 2005, 01:26 PM
Our war against Palestine hasnt killed 6 million innocent Jews or Arabs..our numbers have never surpassed that..in about 50 years of war..that was a very ignorant post..besides me no one Israeli has posted in this thread so I take that comment directly at me..just like you are not really German but live there its like me from Israel..and all Jews found a victim :rolls:..most Jews dont even care or know about the fliggin Pope..or care less..and you take the words from 2 or 3 Jews and make it sound like thats what the whole religon thinks..being half Jew/and half Muslim I know that frankly I dont care but the fact he was in the Hitler Youth bothers me a bit but frankly what the fuck can I do..
No offense but Turkey also should fess up to its genocide against the Armenians. 1 million of them were killed in 1915. The rest were booted out of the country. So you are half-Jewish, interesting. I had a Turkish Jewish friend. He was feriously nationalist and that means he hated so many countries. As a Turk, he hated Kurds, Bulgarians, Greeks, Srbs and as a Jew he hated fundementalist muslims. That's a lot of people to hate. But he was a good chap, I liked him. I like Turkey and really want it to join the EU. But Turks should be more tolerant towards minority groups. I'm half Swiss half Indian. India has its problems with minority groups too such as muslims that need to be solved.

crazillo
Apr 21st, 2005, 02:44 PM
No offense but Turkey also should fess up to its genocide against the Armenians. 1 million of them were killed in 1915. The rest were booted out of the country. So you are half-Jewish, interesting. I had a Turkish Jewish friend. He was feriously nationalist and that means he hated so many countries. As a Turk, he hated Kurds, Bulgarians, Greeks, Srbs and as a Jew he hated fundementalist muslims. That's a lot of people to hate. But he was a good chap, I liked him. I like Turkey and really want it to join the EU. But Turks should be more tolerant towards minority groups. In case you want to hit back at me, go ahead. I'm half Swiss half Indian. India has its problems with minority groups such as muslims that need to be solved.

Yes, and people who think like you are definitely on a good way.

But if both sides only see war as a solution then something with their mind cannot be right IMO.

I also think that Turkey needs to improve before they can come into the European Union. They have to solve deep problems first. We will wait for them.

Meteor Shower
Apr 21st, 2005, 06:30 PM
I just can't believe what I am reading here.

All Jews have found a new victim now...... Someone they can blame again.

But what you are doing in Israel with the Palestines is any better??? :rolleyes:

Every year many people in Germany go and say "yes, we are guilty. We know what we did" and we know that it won't happen again here. We have build sooo many relicts that show our past so that we will never forget it.

But now all the fucking people come out and say "a Nazi as a pope, great." In Germany, nobody said ANYTHING, because otherwise they would have been killed. Yes, killed. The grandfather of my grannie was killed because he listened to an English radio programme. NOBODY said ANYTHING and it has been reported that his parents were AGAINST Hitler, but you had no choice. But for sure, you guys are going to be prejudiced against any German again. Sure, it might be the way it is. Even if my buddie from a game made a mistake in the rankings a jewish member of the board said he did so on purpose and that he still has the killer blood in himself..... WTF is that???

If you don't stop complaining about us, then you should see what we are now -- a way better country than you are with your war against the Palestines.


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

EXCUSE ME?????
How do you EVEN CAN COMPARE BETWEEN THIS??

ok.. I calmed down a little bit and kept reading.. I won't repeat what Jordan (PointBlank) said, what he said is enough.

crazillo
Apr 21st, 2005, 06:52 PM
EXCUSE ME?????
How do you EVEN CAN COMPARE BETWEEN THIS??

ok.. I calmed down a little bit and kept reading.. I won't repeat what Jordan (PointBlank) said, what he said is enough.

I won't comment on that again. But I know many people who said I wouldn't be too wrong.

It's no comparison, but what many people did here was just terrible. Do you know how it is to be called a Nazi, although it's been 60 years since there? Do you know how it is that nobody is allowed to say we are proud of our nationality and then you are always called a Nazi again? Do you know how that does feel?
Do you know how it is to be called someone with killerblood in himself becuase you did a mistake in a game in which you counted the ranking points wrong? Don't you think that's totally wrong at all????

BTW, I think I can comapre that. For sure, it is a very different situation, but what is up between the Palestines and you is not a very good thing, too. Still, I think that things have to change in your country, because in 200 or so years it will be still the same. And then people will say how bad those things were and are which you do. Those people can't go anywhere. They are excluded. They have no rights. They are outsiders. I think people should think about that a bit more than you do actually.

Lord Nelson
Apr 21st, 2005, 07:41 PM
I won't comment on that again. But I know many people who said I wouldn't be too wrong.

It's no comparison, but what many people did here was just terrible. Do you know how it is to be called a Nazi, although it's been 60 years since there? Do you know how it is that nobody is allowed to say we are proud of our nationality and then you are always called a Nazi again? Do you know how that does feel?
Do you know how it is to be called someone with killerblood in himself becuase you did a mistake in a game in which you counted the ranking points wrong? Don't you think that's totally wrong at all????

BTW, I think I can comapre that. For sure, it is a very different situation, but what is up between the Palestines and you is not a very good thing, too. Still, I think that things have to change in your country, because in 200 or so years it will be still the same. And then people will say how bad those things were and are which you do. Those people can't go anywhere. They are excluded. They have no rights. They are outsiders. I think people should think about that a bit more than you do actually.
I'm all with you Carillo. Germany is much more than about Nazism. Nazis were actually anti-Catholic. When one keeps comapring Germans with Nazis it is only natural for one like Carillo to fight back. It's not about comparision it is about giving that person a taste of his own medicine. Germany has had great statesmen like Bismarck who united the German states instead of whacko Adolph.

Meteor Shower
Apr 21st, 2005, 07:41 PM
I won't comment on that again. But I know many people who said I wouldn't be too wrong.

It's no comparison, but what many people did here was just terrible. Do you know how it is to be called a Nazi, although it's been 60 years since there? Do you know how it is that nobody is allowed to say we are proud of our nationality and then you are always called a Nazi again? Do you know how that does feel?
Do you know how it is to be called someone with killerblood in himself becuase you did a mistake in a game in which you counted the ranking points wrong? Don't you think that's totally wrong at all????

I do think it is wrong. Very wrong. But you've gotta understand those people too, some of their family died there and its very hard for them to forgive. And some are just stupid and say stupid things :o
But just so you know, lots of ppl DO realize its a different country and when people visit there they comeback and say how nice some of the people there and the acknowledge the change in Germany...

BTW, I think I can comapre that. For sure, it is a very different situation, but what is up between the Palestines and you is not a very good thing, too. Still, I think that things have to change in your country, because in 200 or so years it will be still the same. And then people will say how bad those things were and are which you do. Those people can't go anywhere. They are excluded. They have no rights. They are outsiders. I think people should think about that a bit more than you do actually.

Of course lots of peope get killed and its bad. But lots of thing are bad in this world, but yet you can't compare between them and other bad things just because they are bad too. Some things are bad than others.
The Israeli-Palestines situations is not the subject here, and I don't think we should start a discussion about it here and now.

crazillo
Apr 21st, 2005, 11:07 PM
Hope we can live with that end of the conversation.

I just wanted to defend Germany - the new one. :)