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View Full Version : Graf vs. Navratilova...I just don't get it


JenFan75
Apr 18th, 2005, 04:40 AM
When it comes to singles (which, in my mind, matters more than doubles), Steffi Graf is the best player in the history of tennis. How could people argue against that? The only argument I have heard is the "Martina played longer! Therefore she is better!" argument. But that is complete bullshit, since Graf was able to win 4 more majors than Martina while having a considerably shorter career.

La Reine
Apr 18th, 2005, 04:46 AM
You can't compare two diff. players in slightly different eras. Stuff will never add up right.

F-R-E-A-K
Apr 18th, 2005, 04:49 AM
:bs: All these OLD SKOOL threads! :zzz:


Are we trying to determine:

Greatest Singles Player?

or

Greatest Player?

---------------------------

Graf:

Singles: 107 Doubles: 11

Navratilova:

Singles: 167 Doubles: 174



Navratilova holds 167 singles titles, more than any man or woman; won at least one tour event a year for 21 consecutive years; holds 173 doubles titles.


Enough said. :wavey:

Crazy Canuck
Apr 18th, 2005, 04:56 AM
If you don't believe that Nav has a case, given all of her stats, when why should anybody bother trying to convince you? Not only is your mind made up, but you've made it clear that you can only see one side of things.

Philbo
Apr 18th, 2005, 05:18 AM
If you don't believe that Nav has a case, given all of her stats, when why should anybody bother trying to convince you? Not only is your mind made up, but you've made it clear that you can only see one side of things.

Good call Crazy canuck.. But I'll indulge him anway..

Martina is the most dominant player since the open era, possibly ever.. She holds 3 of the top 5 winning streaks ever.. At one point she won 72 matches in a row, lost once, then won 50 something matches in a row.. that gave her something like 128 -1 match total over a period of about 1.5 years.

Martina won 6 consecutive slams without interruption. Something unequalled.

If all you have as 'evidence' that Martina doesnt have a claim to the best ever is the fact that Graf won 4 more slams, you really need to investigate why Graf ended up with 4 more slams..

The fact that during the early part of her career, from the mid 70's to around 81/82, the top players didnt play the Australian Open at all and often missed out on the French..Martina herself did not play the French Or Australian Open from 1976 thru to 1979. In 1980 she played Oz Open but still not the French... So the fact that for Graf's entire career, ALL the slams had all the top players present means she had more opportunity to rack up the victories..

I wont even bother going into a big spiel about the fact that Martina had one of the other top 5 players of all time as a rival during her entire peak - Chris Evert. Steffi got hers taken out of the game. It had an effect, how big is detabable, but for people to try claiming Graf didnt benefit is just a laughable joke.

On top of that, the HUGE thing in Martina's favour is LONGEVITY. Steffi's longevity just doesnt compare to Martina's at all. Martina from the age of 34+ went 2-2 with Graf the last 4 times they played in the 90's...That alone puts a question mark over Grafs claim - if-well-beyond-her-peak-martina can still compete equally with a PEAK Graf (early to mid 20's) it stands to logic that peak Martina will have an edge of peak Graf.

At age 36 Martina was still capable of beating peak Seles and peak Graf on a good day... She has totally dominant head to heads against many of the top players of the NEXT GENERATION..For example ASV, Sabatini, not to mention her 9-9 head to head against Graf which reflects way better on Martina than Graf IMO...

The only thing I'll say on doubles is this... Doubles results shouldnt count towards determining who the best SINGLES player ever is. However the fact that Martina won her 18 singles slams whilst also winning 31 odd doubles grand slams adds to Martina's claim for one simple fact - Martina won her singles championships with 3 TIMES THE WORKLOAD OF GRAF. Graf wasnt up to playing doubles in the same tournament which is her shortcoming. Martina deserves some credit for racking up her victories with a much tougher workload.

G1Player2
Apr 18th, 2005, 05:22 AM
Good call Crazy canuck.. But I'll indulge him anway..

Martina is the most dominant player since the open era, possibly ever.. She holds 3 of the top 5 winning streaks ever.. At one point she won 72 matches in a row, lost once, then won 50 something matches in a row.. that gave her something like 128 -1 match total over a period of about 1.5 years.

Martina won 6 consecutive slams without interruption. Something unequalled.

If all you have as 'evidence' that Martina doesnt have a claim to the best ever is the fact that Graf won 4 more slams, you really need to investigate why Graf ended up with 4 more slams..

The fact that during the early part of her career, from the mid 70's to around 81/82, the top players didnt play the Australian Open at all and often missed out on the French..Martina herself did not play the French Or Australian Open from 1976 thru to 1979. In 1980 she played Oz Open but still not the French... So the fact that for Graf's entire career, ALL the slams had all the top players present means she had more opportunity to rack up the victories..

I wont even bother going into a big spiel about the fact that Martina had one of the other top 5 players of all time as a rival during her entire peak - Chris Evert. Steffi got hers taken out of the game. It had an effect, how big is detabable, but for people to try claiming Graf didnt benefit is just a laughable joke.

On top of that, the HUGE thing in Martina's favour is LONGEVITY. Steffi's longevity just doesnt compare to Martina's at all. Martina from the age of 34+ went 2-2 with Graf the last 4 times they played in the 90's...That alone puts a question mark over Grafs claim - if-well-beyond-her-peak-martina can still compete equally with a PEAK Graf (early to mid 20's) it stands to logic that peak Martina will have an edge of peak Graf.

At age 36 Martina was still capable of beating peak Seles and peak Graf on a good day... She has totally dominant head to heads against many of the top players of the NEXT GENERATION..For example ASV, Sabatini, not to mention her 9-9 head to head against Graf which reflects way better on Martina than Graf IMO...

The only thing I'll say on doubles is this... Doubles results shouldnt count towards determining who the best SINGLES player ever is. However the fact that Martina won her 18 singles slams whilst also winning 31 odd doubles grand slams adds to Martina's claim for one simple fact - Martina won her singles championships with 3 TIMES THE WORKLOAD OF GRAF. Graf wasnt up to playing doubles in the same tournament which is her shortcoming. Martina deserves some credit for racking up her victories with a much tougher workload.

And remember, Navratilova was able to do this without her biggest rival and threat being stabbed in the back by a deranged fan...

Philbo
Apr 18th, 2005, 05:23 AM
And remember, Navratilova was able to do this without her biggest rival and threat being stabbed in the back by a deranged fan...

Thats correct.. See paragraph 4 of my post! ;)

FrauleinSteffi
Apr 18th, 2005, 06:06 AM
:) :) :) Why Steffi Graf is the greatest ever.

· Steffi is the ONLY player (man or woman) to have won a Golden Grand Slam - winning the four Grand Slam titles - the Australian Open, the French Open, Wimbledon and the US Open - in a single calendar year - 1988. In that year, Steffi also won the Olympic Gold Medal in Seoul - hence the name Golden Grand Slam.
·Steffi has won her 22 Grand Slam on four different surfaces - Rebound Ace at Flinders Park, Clay at Roland Garros, Grass at Wimbledon and cement Hard Court at Flushing Meadow. This fact, in itself, makes Steffi's Grand Slam unique.
· Steffi is the ONLY player (either male or female) to have won all four of the Grand Slam events at least 4 times.
· Steffi is the ONLY player (either male or female) to have won each of the four Grand Slam events in singles AND TO HAVE SUCCESSFULLY DEFENDED each and every one
· Steffi is one of only two players (either male or female) to have won the French Open and Wimbledon in the same year and to have done so four times. She achieved this in 1988, 1993, 1995 and 1996. Helen Wills Moody did it in 1928, 1929, 1930 and 1932. Bjorn Borg achieved it three times - 1978, 1979 and 1980
· Steffi had already won 7 Wimbledon titles by the age of 27
· It took Steffi only 9 years between her first and her eighteenth Grand Slam titles, while it took Margaret Court 11 years, and Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova 13 years each.
· Steffi holds the record for any player (either male or female) for the number of consecutive weeks as number 1 in the world - 186 weeks between 17th August 1987 and 10th March 1991.
· Steffi is the only player (either male or female) to have won all four Grand Slam singles titles in the 80s AS WELL AS in the 90s
· By winning the 1994 Australian Open, Steffi became only the second woman (Martina Navratilova was the other doing it in 1983/84) to win a non-calendar year Grand Slam, having already won the 1993 French Open, Wimbledon and US Open titles.
· Steffi holds the record for consecutive appearances in Grand Slam finals at 13 - from the 1987 French Open up to the 1990 French Open
· Steffi has won at least 3 Grand Slam titles in five different years - in 1988 she won all 4; in 1989 and 1993 she won 3 and was a finalist in the fourth; in 1995 and 1996 she won all three of the Grand Slams she played.
· Steffi has earned an Olympic Gold Medal (1988 at Seoul), a Silver Medal ( 1992 at Barcelona) and a Bronze Medal (1988 at Seoul in doubles).
· Steffi won the Lipton 5 times - a record for a man or woman. The Lipton is the biggest tournament outside the Grand Slams.
· Between 1986 and 1996, Steffi won at least 7 titles every year. Also she won at least one Grand Slam title every year between 1987 and 1996.
· Steffi has been the World Champion of Tennis seven times in ten years - 1987 to 1990, 1993 and 1995 and 1996. Seven times is a world record.
· Steffi has been the Corel WTA Player of the Year 1987 to 1990 and 1993 to 1996.
· Steffi holds a winning record against every significant player she has ever played, except Martina Navratilova (9-9) and Tracy Austin (1-1).
· Steffi holds the record as the player who has held the number 1 ranking in the world for the l o n g e s t period of time. As of the 24th March 1997, she had been in the top position for 377 weeks (over 7 years). The previous record was 331 weeks which was held by Martina Navratilova.
· Steffi won 107 titles

Special Moments in Steffi's career


This page lists important moments in Steffi's illustrious career.


At age 13, Steffi won the German Junior 18s Championship and the European Junior 18s Championship.
18th October 1982 - Steffi turned professional and the next day played her first match against Tracy Austin in Filderstadt, Germany. Steffi lost 4-6,0-6. She was 13 years and 4 months old.
May 1983 - Steffi played through the qualification rounds of her first Grand Slam event - the French Open - and entered the main draw. She lost in the second round 0-6,6-7 to Beverly Mould of South Africa who is one of the few players to have a winning record against Steffi (1-0)! At this event, Steffi, being only 13, was mistaken for a ballgirl!
June 1983 - Steffi, playing on grass (at Roehampton, England) for the first time as a pro, lost in the second round of the Wimbledon qualies 6-1,3-6,2-6 to Nerida Gregory of the US, who maintains a winning record against Steffi too (1-0)!
22nd October 1983 - Steffi gets to her first pro quarter-final. It is at Brighton and she lost to Ma. Christine Calleja of France 6-7,7-5,4-6.
November 1983 - Steffi played in her first Australian Open and retired after the first set of her first round match against Liz Smylie of Australia 1-6.
June/July 1984 - Steffi made her first impact at Wimbledon. In a round of 16 match, Steffi came very close to the quarter-finals but lost a heartbreaker to Englishwoman Jo Durie 6-3,3-6,7-9.
August 1984 - Steffi won the Olympic Demonstration Event at the Los Angeles Games defeating Yugoslav Sabrina Goles 1-6,6-3,6-4. As a demonstration event, no medals were awarded. Steffi was the youngest competitor in the tournament.
August 1984 - Steffi played in her first U.S. Open and lost to compatriot Sylvia Hanika 4-6,2-6.
21st October 1984 - Steffi played in her first final at Filderstadt but lost to Catarina Lindqvist of Sweden 1-6,4-6.
16 February 1985 - Steffi first match against Chris Evert - a 4-6,2-6 loss for Steffi.
September 1985 - Steffi won a highly significant match at the U.S. Open in the quarter-finals against Pam Shriver 7-6(7-4)6-7(4-7),7-6(7-4). On a very hot day, Steffi moved to her first Grand Slam semi-final, after three tiebreak sets.
7th September 1985 - In the semis, Steffi lost to Martina Navratilova 2-6,3-6. This was Steffi's first match against Martina.
Steffi was ranked number 6 in the world at the end of 1985. She was 16.
13th April 1986 - Steffi won her first title, defeating Chris Evert at the Family Circle Cup, 6-4,7-5. Having won her first title, the dam was broken and Steffi quickly won 3 more titles in quick succession. This was Steffi's first win over Chris Evert and she would never lose to Evert again.
19th May 1986 - Steffi won her first German Championship and at the same time had her first win against Martina 6-2,6-3.
7th and 8th February 1987 - At the Lipton, Steffi defeated in succession, in the semis and the final, Martina Navratilova (6-3,6-2) and Chris Evert (6-1,6-2). Steffi was the third seed.
5th June 1987 - Steffi won her first Grand Slam title - the French Open - on a double fault by Martina Navratilova. The score 6-4,4-6,8-6. Steffi had trailed 3-5 in the final set.
In 1987 Steffi lost to Martina in the finals of Wimbledon (5-7,3-6) and the U.S. Open (6-7,1-6).
July/August 1987 - In Vancouver, Germany defeated the United States to win the Federation Cup. Steffi had defeated Evert 6-3,6-4 but it was the doubles match that decided it. Steffi and Claudia Kohde-Kilsch came from behind to win 1-6,7-5,6-4 against Chris Evert and Pam Shriver.
16th August 1987 - Steffi defeated Chris Evert 6-3,6-4 at the Virginia Slims of Los Angeles, not knowing that this victory gave her the number 1 ranking until her father told her after the match. Steffi would hold onto the number 1 ranking for a record 186 weeks - until the 10th March 1991.
22nd November 1987 - Steffi won her first Masters (Virginia Slims Championships) by defeating Gabriela Sabatini 4-6,6-4,6-0,6-4 - her first 4 set match.
Steffi ended 1987 having lost just two matches (75-2).
In 1988, Steffi showed what being the number 1 player in the world meant. She won all 4 Grand Slam titles and added an Olympic Gold Medal. All in all, Steffi won 11 titles in 1988 and had a 72-3 record. Her Golden Grand Slam remains unique. Only two other women players have won a calendar year Grand Slam - Maureen Connolly in 1953 and Margaret Smith Court in 1970.
10th June 1988 - Steffi defeated Natasha Zvereva 6-0, 6-0 in just 34 minutes to win her second French Open title.
6th July 1988 - Steffi won her first Wimbledon title, playing tennis of such high quality. Trailing 5-7,0-2 against Martina Navratilova, Steffi raised her game to a level that few, if any, had ever witnessed before and won 12 of the next 13 games to take the title 5-7,6-2,6-1. Definitely one of the finest matches in Steffi's career.
8th June 1989 - Steffi played her first match against Monica Seles in the semi-finals of the French Open. Steffi won 6-3,3-6,6-3.
In 1989, Steffi continued her incredible run, winning three of the Slams - the Australian, Wimbledon and the U.S. Open. She lost the French title to Arantxa Sanchez 6-7(6-8),6-3,5-7 thereby just missing a second consecutive Grand Slam.
Steffi considered 1989 a better year than 1988. She won 14 titles and had a 86-2 record.
27th January 1990 - Steffi won the Australian Open with a 6-3,6-4 over Mary Joe Fernandez.
9th June 1990 - Steffi lost to Monica Seles in the final of the French Open 6-7,4-6.
5th July 1990 - Steffi lost to Zina Garrison-Jackson 3-6,6-3,4-6 in the semi-final of Wimbledon.
8th September 1990 - Steffi lost to Gabriela Sabatini 2-6,6-7(4) in the final of the U.S. Open.
30th September 1990 - Steffi won the first tournament ever played in Leipzig by defeating Arantxa Sanchez Vicario 6-1,6-1. What made this such a special occasion was that Steffi was playing in what used to be East Germany but was now part of a united Germany. In a very moving award ceremony, Steffi, moved to tears, donated her prize money of $70,000 to aid in the development of tennis in the Eastern part of her country. She was given an extended standing ovation.
1990 was a mixed year for Steffi - only 1 Grand Slam title, a 72-5 record and 9 titles! Anyone else would consider this a wonderful year.
February 1991 - This may have been a low point in Steffi's career as she actually considered quitting tennis. 1990 had been a mediocre year for her high standards - 72 wins and 5 losses - only one Grand Slam title! - and when 1991 started out with a quarter-final loss in the Australian Open to Jana Novotna (7-5,4-6,6-8) and then a quarter-final loss in Tokyo a week later to Gabriela Sabatini (6-4,4-6,6-7(6)), Steffi was discouraged. Steffi didn't win a title in 1991 until the 31st March when she beat Monica Seles in San Antonio (6-4,6-3). That was the tonic she needed.
10th March 1991 - Steffi relinquished the number 1 ranking to Monica Seles becoming number 2. She had completed a record 186 consecutive weeks as number 1.
6th July 1991 - Steffi, getting back on track, had a come from behind win against Sabatini in the final at Wimbledon (6-4,3-6,8-6).
5th August 1991 - Steffi regained the number 1 ranking for one week only - enough to be seeded number 1 in the U.S. Open. Steffi lost to Martina in the semis 6-7(2-7),7-6(8-6),4-6 in the Open.
19th August 1991 - Steffi regained the number 1 ranking again.
8th September 1991 - Steffi slipped to number 2 behind Seles again.
October 1991 - The Steffi Graf Youth Tennis Centre was founded in Leipzig.
2nd October 1991 - Steffi won her 500th match - 6 months ahead of the pace set by Chris Evert in her own career.
Steffi was unable to play the Australian Open in 1992.
6th June 1992 - Perhaps one of Steffi's most heartbreaking losses occured in the final of the French Open. She lost to Monica Seles 2-6,6-3,8-10. The play was very high quality. Steffi trailed most of the final set. Trailing 3-5 and with Steffi serving, Steffi had to fight off 4 Championship points for Seles before she won that game. Steffi then took the next two games to lead 6-5 and then 7-6, but Seles levelled to 7-7. Seles then led 7-8 and Steffi broke service to level at 8-8. Seles won the next two games. One commiseration was that the crowd at Roland Garros gave Steffi a rapturous reception that moved her to tears.
4th July 1992 - Steffi exacted sweet revenge on Seles by whipping her 6-2,6-1 in the final of Wimbledon.
July 1992 - In Frankfurt, Steffi led Germany to a win over Spain to win the Fed Cup. Steffi defeated Sanchez Vicario 6-4,6-2 in the final.
August 1992 - Steffi lost to Jennifer Capriati (6-3,3-6,4-6) in the final of the Olympics in Barcelona.
January 1993 - Germany won the Hopman Cup for the first time defeating Spain 2-1. Steffi defeated Arantxa Sanchez Vicario 6-4, 6-3; Michael Stich beat Emilio Sanchez 7-5, 6-4. The Spaniards won the mixed doubles.
30th January 1993 - Steffi lost to Monica Seles 6-4,3-6,2-6 in the final of the Australian Open.
14th March 1993 - Steffi won her 600th match.
April 1993 - A so-called fan of Steffi's stabbed Monica Seles in Hamburg. This horrible event obviously damaged Monica Seles, but also had a big effect on Steffi.
5th June 1993 - Steffi defeated Mary Joe Fernandez 4-6,6-2,6-4 in the final of the French Open.
7th June 1993 - Steffi regained the number 1 ranking.
3rd July 1993 - Steffi defeated Jana Novotna 7-6(6),1-6,6-4 in the final of Wimbledon.
11th September 1993 - Steffi defeated Helena Sukova 6-3,6-3 in the final of the U.S. Open. Steffi is the only player, man or woman, to have won all 4 Grand Slam titles in the '90s.
21st November 1993 - Steffi defeated Arantxa Sanchez Vicario in the finals of the Masters (Virginia Slims Championships) 6-1,6-4,3-6,6-1.
29th January 1994 - Steffi blitzed Arantxa Sanchez Vicario 6-0,6-2 in the final of the Australian Open and thereby completed a non-calendar year Grand Slam, only the second woman to do so. Martina Navratilova was the other in 1983-84.
6th February 1994 - In Tokyo, Steffi played Martina for the last time and defeated her 6-2,6-4 in the final of the Pan Pacific Open. This win leveled their head-to-head record at 9 wins each.
7th February 1994 - Steffi's ranking average hit 441.1746 which is the highest ranking average ever achieved by any player. Steffi had 6617.6185 points divided by 15 tournaments to arrive at this average. She held on to this average for three weeks until 28th February 1994 when it slipped to 429.8512 which was based upon 6877.6185 points divided by 16 tournaments. On the 21st March, 1994 Steffi's points actually peaked at 6951.6185 points which when divided by 16 tournaments yielded an average of 434.4762.
February/March 1994 - Steffi won three tournaments within a three week period - winning in Indian Wells on 27th February, in Delray Beach on 6th March and at Key Biscayne on 19th March. Since the Lipton is played over 10 days, the win at Key Biscayne was, technically, not precisely within a three week period. It was still a great achievement.
19th March 1994 - In the final of the Lipton against Natasha Zvereva, Steffi lost the first set thereby ending a streak of 57 consecutive sets without loss. The streak started in the final set of the 1993 Masters and extended through 27 consecutive matches in 1994, breaking a record set by Monica Seles in 1990.
3rd June 1994 - Mary Pierce defeated Steffi 6-2,6-2 in the semi-final of the French Open.
21st June 1994 - Defending Champion Steffi lost in the first round of Wimbledon to Lori McNeil 5-7,6-7(5).
21st August 1994 - In a final that would take six hours to complete owing to rain delays, and with Steffi receiving treatment for her painful back, Steffi lost to Arantxa Sanchez Vicario 5-7,6-1,6-7(4) at the Canadian Open. This was the most courageous and inspiring match that one can imagine. Steffi, refusing to give into the agony she was suffering and with the constant rain delays, won the hearts of the crowd in Montréal. Steffi was in tears and she wasn't the only one!
10th September 1994 - Once again bothered by her back, Steffi lost the final of the U.S. Open to Arantxa Sanchez Vicario. Steffi won the first set 6-1 in 22 minutes, but lost the second 6-7(3) and the third 4-6.
6th February 1995 - Steffi lost the number 1 ranking to Arantxa Sanchez Vicario. She would regain the top position on the 20th February for one week.
After an extensive layoff which meant missing the Australian Open, Steffi returned to tennis in 1995 winning titles in Paris, Delray Beach, Key Biscayne and Houston. The Houston title was her 90th title.
10th April 1995 - Steffi regained the number 1 ranking.
15th May 1995 - Steffi slipped to number 2 again behind Arantxa Sanchez Vicario.
10th June 1995 - Steffi defeated Arantxa Sanchez Vicario 7-5,4-6,6-0 in the final of the French Open. Steffi's 4th French Open title.
Steffi regained the number 1 ranking again - which she has held ever since.
6th July 1995 - Steffi won her 750th match defeating Jana Novotna 5-7,6-4,6-2 in the semi-finals of Wimbledon.
8th July 1995 - Steffi defeated Arantxa Sanchez Vicario 4-6,6-1,7-5 to claim her 6th Wimbledon title. This match featured a titanic 11th game of the third set that featured 32 points, 13 deuces, 8 game points for Arantxa, 6 break points for Steffi, 1 ace (Arantxa) and no double faults. It lasted 20 minutes and Steffi won it. Very possibly one of the finest matches ever played.
15th August 1995 - Steffi and Monica Seles to share the number 1 ranking for a period.
9th September 1995 - Steffi defeated Monica Seles 7-6(8-6),0-6,6-3 in the final of the U.S. Open. This match was the first ever match between two co-number 1 players. Steffi's 4th U.S. Open title. This was Steffi's 18th Grand Slam title - tying Martina Navratilova and Chris Evert.
8th October 1995 - Steffi reached the 300 week mark as number 1 player in the world.
20th November 1995 - Steffi defeated Anke Huber in a thrilling five set final at the Masters (Corel WTA Tour Championships) 6-1,2-6,6-1,4-6,6-3. This was Steffi's first five set match.
30th March 1996 - Steffi became the only player, man or woman, to win a fifth Lipton title and the only player, man or woman, to have won three Lipton tiles in succession. She defeated Chanda Rubin 6-1,6-3.
13th May 1996 - Steffi became the player, either male or female, who has been number one in the world the
l o n g e s t. On this day, Steffi had been number 1 for a total of 332 weeks - over 6 years.
8th June 1996 - Steffi won her 5th French Open Championship defeating Arantxa Sanchez Vicario 6-3,6-7(4)10-8. This victory was considered by Steffi to be one of her greatest. Twice in the final set, Sanchez Vicario was broken by Steffi as she served for the Championship. This title gave her 19 career Grand Slam titles, moving her ahead of Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova and tying Helen Wills Moody.
6th July 1996 - Steffi won her 7th Wimbledon Championship by defeating Arantxa Sanchez Vicario 6-3,7-5. She moved into sole second place with 20 Grand Slam titles ahead of Helen Wills Moody. This win also marked Steffi's 100th career title.
13th July 1996 - Steffi won her 800th career singles match 6-1,3-6,6-2 against Judith Wiesner.
8th September 1996 - Steffi won her 5th US Open Championship, defeating Monica Seles 7-5,6-4. Steffi's 21st Grand Slam title. The second year in succession that Steffi has won all the Grand Slam events she has played in.
16th September 1996 - Steffi marks 350th week as world number one.
5th October 1996 - Steffi has to default a match in Leipzig against Anke Huber, marking only the second time in her career that she has had to withdraw from a tournament when it was already in progress. The first time was in November 1983 against Liz Smylie at the Australian Open.
24th November 1996 - Steffi won her fifth Masters title defeating Martina Hingis is a five set match - 6-3,4-6,6-0,4-6,6-0
23rd December 1996 - Steffi marked her seventh year (364th week) as the number one ranked player on the planet.
1st January 1997 - Steffi was named the 1996 World Champion by the International Tennis Federation - this for the seventh time which is a world record.
17th January 1997 - Steffi won her 45th consecutive Grand Slam match which tied the record with Martina Navratilova.
2nd February 1997 - Owing to a patella tendon injury in her left knee, Steffi had to default the final in Tokyo to Hingis and started a prolonged injury break.
19th March 1997 - Steffi was elected WTA Player of The Year by her peers for the eighth time in her career and a record eighth time in ten years. She was also elected the Most Exciting Player by tennis fans.
31st March 1997 - Steffi slipped to number 2 in the rankings, after not being able to defend 1996 points due to injury. She had been number 1 for a record 377 weeks.
12th May 1997 - Steffi returned to the Tour after her second longest period of injury.
16th May 1997 - Steffi lost to Amanda Coetzer 0-6, 1-6 in Berlin - her worst match ever.
9th June 1997 - Steffi slipped to ranking position #3 - the first time since March 1987 that she has not been ranked either #1 or #2.
10th June 1997 - Steffi Graf had a second operation on her left knee and started another prolonged injury break.
16th February 1998 - Steffi Graf returns to tennis in Hannover at the Faber Grand Prix after her longest layoff lasting eight months. She plays a doubles match with Barbara Rittner and they defeat Meike Babel and Wiltrud Probst 6-3,6-1.
10th March 1998 - Steffi Graf moved past Virginia Wade on the career wins list notching up win number 840 and taking position 3 after Martina Navratilova and Chris Evert.
12th March 1998 - Steffi injured her left hamstring in a match v. Lindsay Davenport at Indian Wells, defaulting the match. This injury led to an injury in her right ankle while practising on another comeback attempt.
4th May 1998 - In an interview in Focus, a German newsmagazine, Steffi admits that she may have to retire. She forgoes any attempt at a return to the clay court season and decides to try for Wimbledon instead.
8th June 1998 - Steffi dropped off the singles rankings as she no longer had played the required minimum of three tournaments in the past twelve months to have a ranking.
10th June 1998 - Steffi returns to the Tour in Birmingham on grass. She defeated her friend Rennae Stubbs 5-7, 6-2, 6-4.
18th June 1998 - Steffi lost her 100th career match and it took nearly 16 years!. That's an amazingly low average of just 6.5 losses a year. The match was against Anna Kournikova and the score was 6-7(4), 6-3, 6-4 to Kournikova.
29th August 1998 - Steffi plays in her first final since May 1997 and wins it 6-4, 6-1 against Jana Novotna. This marks her 104th career title and the 13th year in succession where Steffi has won at least one title.
7th November 1998 - Steffi Graf became the player who has earned more money than any other female athlete ever bypassing Martina Navratilova.
8th November 1998 - After all the injury problems of 1997 and 1998, Steffi won her 105th career title defeating Nathalie Tauziat in the final of the Sparkassen Cup 6-3, 6-4.
November 1998 - Steffi followed her tournament win in Leipzig with another one in Philadelphia, but what made this month so memorable was that in the space of five days she defeated the top three ranked players - Davenport (1), Hingis (2) and Novotna (3). Then to ice that cake, she also defeated two other top ten players Monica Seles (6) and Nathalie Tauziat (9) to finish a spectacular two weeks. Defeating the top three players in five days has never been done before by one player - Graf set another mark. This mark was even more special in that there were three players currently or formerly ranked at number 1 in this streak.
11th May 1999 - Steffi played her 1000th game and defeated Sandra Nacuk of Yugoslavia 2-6, 6-3, 6-4. Aptly, it happened in Berlin.
5th June 1999 - After a drought since September 1996, Steffi won her 22nd Grand Slam title, her 6th French Open title by defeating Martina Hingis 4-6, 7-5, 6-2. Steffi did this at age 29 years, 356 days. On the way to the title, Steffi defeated the number 3 player (Seles), the number 2 player (Davenport) and the number 1 player (Hingis) in consecutive matches. This was the first time this has been done in a Grand Slam. Steffi announced that this was her last match at Roland Garros.
28th June 1999 - Steffi won her 900th career match against Clijsters in the round of 16 at Wimbledon.
4th July 1999 - Steffi lost to Davenport in the final of The Championships 4-6, 5-7. She announced that this was her last match at Wimbledon.
13th August 1999 - Steffi announced her retirement from tennis.
11th July 2004 - Stefanie inducted into the International Tennis Hall of Fame in Newport, Rhode Island, USA.
:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :wavey: :wavey: :wavey: :worship: :worship: :worship:

Philbo
Apr 18th, 2005, 06:18 AM
:) :) :) Why Steffi Graf is the greatest ever.

· Steffi is the ONLY player (man or woman) to have won a Golden Grand Slam - winning the four Grand Slam titles - the Australian Open, the French Open, Wimbledon and the US Open - in a single calendar year - 1988. In that year, Steffi also won the Olympic Gold Medal in Seoul - hence the name Golden Grand Slam.
·Steffi has won her 22 Grand Slam on four different surfaces - Rebound Ace at Flinders Park, Clay at Roland Garros, Grass at Wimbledon and cement Hard Court at Flushing Meadow. This fact, in itself, makes Steffi's Grand Slam unique.
· Steffi is the ONLY player (either male or female) to have won all four of the Grand Slam events at least 4 times.
· Steffi is the ONLY player (either male or female) to have won each of the four Grand Slam events in singles AND TO HAVE SUCCESSFULLY DEFENDED each and every one
· Steffi is one of only two players (either male or female) to have won the French Open and Wimbledon in the same year and to have done so four times. She achieved this in 1988, 1993, 1995 and 1996. Helen Wills Moody did it in 1928, 1929, 1930 and 1932. Bjorn Borg achieved it three times - 1978, 1979 and 1980
· Steffi had already won 7 Wimbledon titles by the age of 27
· It took Steffi only 9 years between her first and her eighteenth Grand Slam titles, while it took Margaret Court 11 years, and Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova 13 years each.
· Steffi holds the record for any player (either male or female) for the number of consecutive weeks as number 1 in the world - 186 weeks between 17th August 1987 and 10th March 1991.
· Steffi is the only player (either male or female) to have won all four Grand Slam singles titles in the 80s AS WELL AS in the 90s
· By winning the 1994 Australian Open, Steffi became only the second woman (Martina Navratilova was the other doing it in 1983/84) to win a non-calendar year Grand Slam, having already won the 1993 French Open, Wimbledon and US Open titles.
· Steffi holds the record for consecutive appearances in Grand Slam finals at 13 - from the 1987 French Open up to the 1990 French Open
· Steffi has won at least 3 Grand Slam titles in five different years - in 1988 she won all 4; in 1989 and 1993 she won 3 and was a finalist in the fourth; in 1995 and 1996 she won all three of the Grand Slams she played.
· Steffi has earned an Olympic Gold Medal (1988 at Seoul), a Silver Medal ( 1992 at Barcelona) and a Bronze Medal (1988 at Seoul in doubles).
· Steffi won the Lipton 5 times - a record for a man or woman. The Lipton is the biggest tournament outside the Grand Slams.
· Between 1986 and 1996, Steffi won at least 7 titles every year. Also she won at least one Grand Slam title every year between 1987 and 1996.
· Steffi has been the World Champion of Tennis seven times in ten years - 1987 to 1990, 1993 and 1995 and 1996. Seven times is a world record.
· Steffi has been the Corel WTA Player of the Year 1987 to 1990 and 1993 to 1996.
· Steffi holds a winning record against every significant player she has ever played, except Martina Navratilova (9-9) and Tracy Austin (1-1).
· Steffi holds the record as the player who has held the number 1 ranking in the world for the l o n g e s t period of time. As of the 24th March 1997, she had been in the top position for 377 weeks (over 7 years). The previous record was 331 weeks which was held by Martina Navratilova.
· Steffi won 107 titles

Special Moments in Steffi's career


This page lists important moments in Steffi's illustrious career.


At age 13, Steffi won the German Junior 18s Championship and the European Junior 18s Championship.
18th October 1982 - Steffi turned professional and the next day played her first match against Tracy Austin in Filderstadt, Germany. Steffi lost 4-6,0-6. She was 13 years and 4 months old.
May 1983 - Steffi played through the qualification rounds of her first Grand Slam event - the French Open - and entered the main draw. She lost in the second round 0-6,6-7 to Beverly Mould of South Africa who is one of the few players to have a winning record against Steffi (1-0)! At this event, Steffi, being only 13, was mistaken for a ballgirl!
June 1983 - Steffi, playing on grass (at Roehampton, England) for the first time as a pro, lost in the second round of the Wimbledon qualies 6-1,3-6,2-6 to Nerida Gregory of the US, who maintains a winning record against Steffi too (1-0)!
22nd October 1983 - Steffi gets to her first pro quarter-final. It is at Brighton and she lost to Ma. Christine Calleja of France 6-7,7-5,4-6.
November 1983 - Steffi played in her first Australian Open and retired after the first set of her first round match against Liz Smylie of Australia 1-6.
June/July 1984 - Steffi made her first impact at Wimbledon. In a round of 16 match, Steffi came very close to the quarter-finals but lost a heartbreaker to Englishwoman Jo Durie 6-3,3-6,7-9.
August 1984 - Steffi won the Olympic Demonstration Event at the Los Angeles Games defeating Yugoslav Sabrina Goles 1-6,6-3,6-4. As a demonstration event, no medals were awarded. Steffi was the youngest competitor in the tournament.
August 1984 - Steffi played in her first U.S. Open and lost to compatriot Sylvia Hanika 4-6,2-6.
21st October 1984 - Steffi played in her first final at Filderstadt but lost to Catarina Lindqvist of Sweden 1-6,4-6.
16 February 1985 - Steffi first match against Chris Evert - a 4-6,2-6 loss for Steffi.
September 1985 - Steffi won a highly significant match at the U.S. Open in the quarter-finals against Pam Shriver 7-6(7-4)6-7(4-7),7-6(7-4). On a very hot day, Steffi moved to her first Grand Slam semi-final, after three tiebreak sets.
7th September 1985 - In the semis, Steffi lost to Martina Navratilova 2-6,3-6. This was Steffi's first match against Martina.
Steffi was ranked number 6 in the world at the end of 1985. She was 16.
13th April 1986 - Steffi won her first title, defeating Chris Evert at the Family Circle Cup, 6-4,7-5. Having won her first title, the dam was broken and Steffi quickly won 3 more titles in quick succession. This was Steffi's first win over Chris Evert and she would never lose to Evert again.
19th May 1986 - Steffi won her first German Championship and at the same time had her first win against Martina 6-2,6-3.
7th and 8th February 1987 - At the Lipton, Steffi defeated in succession, in the semis and the final, Martina Navratilova (6-3,6-2) and Chris Evert (6-1,6-2). Steffi was the third seed.
5th June 1987 - Steffi won her first Grand Slam title - the French Open - on a double fault by Martina Navratilova. The score 6-4,4-6,8-6. Steffi had trailed 3-5 in the final set.
In 1987 Steffi lost to Martina in the finals of Wimbledon (5-7,3-6) and the U.S. Open (6-7,1-6).
July/August 1987 - In Vancouver, Germany defeated the United States to win the Federation Cup. Steffi had defeated Evert 6-3,6-4 but it was the doubles match that decided it. Steffi and Claudia Kohde-Kilsch came from behind to win 1-6,7-5,6-4 against Chris Evert and Pam Shriver.
16th August 1987 - Steffi defeated Chris Evert 6-3,6-4 at the Virginia Slims of Los Angeles, not knowing that this victory gave her the number 1 ranking until her father told her after the match. Steffi would hold onto the number 1 ranking for a record 186 weeks - until the 10th March 1991.
22nd November 1987 - Steffi won her first Masters (Virginia Slims Championships) by defeating Gabriela Sabatini 4-6,6-4,6-0,6-4 - her first 4 set match.
Steffi ended 1987 having lost just two matches (75-2).
In 1988, Steffi showed what being the number 1 player in the world meant. She won all 4 Grand Slam titles and added an Olympic Gold Medal. All in all, Steffi won 11 titles in 1988 and had a 72-3 record. Her Golden Grand Slam remains unique. Only two other women players have won a calendar year Grand Slam - Maureen Connolly in 1953 and Margaret Smith Court in 1970.
10th June 1988 - Steffi defeated Natasha Zvereva 6-0, 6-0 in just 34 minutes to win her second French Open title.
6th July 1988 - Steffi won her first Wimbledon title, playing tennis of such high quality. Trailing 5-7,0-2 against Martina Navratilova, Steffi raised her game to a level that few, if any, had ever witnessed before and won 12 of the next 13 games to take the title 5-7,6-2,6-1. Definitely one of the finest matches in Steffi's career.
8th June 1989 - Steffi played her first match against Monica Seles in the semi-finals of the French Open. Steffi won 6-3,3-6,6-3.
In 1989, Steffi continued her incredible run, winning three of the Slams - the Australian, Wimbledon and the U.S. Open. She lost the French title to Arantxa Sanchez 6-7(6-8),6-3,5-7 thereby just missing a second consecutive Grand Slam.
Steffi considered 1989 a better year than 1988. She won 14 titles and had a 86-2 record.
27th January 1990 - Steffi won the Australian Open with a 6-3,6-4 over Mary Joe Fernandez.
9th June 1990 - Steffi lost to Monica Seles in the final of the French Open 6-7,4-6.
5th July 1990 - Steffi lost to Zina Garrison-Jackson 3-6,6-3,4-6 in the semi-final of Wimbledon.
8th September 1990 - Steffi lost to Gabriela Sabatini 2-6,6-7(4) in the final of the U.S. Open.
30th September 1990 - Steffi won the first tournament ever played in Leipzig by defeating Arantxa Sanchez Vicario 6-1,6-1. What made this such a special occasion was that Steffi was playing in what used to be East Germany but was now part of a united Germany. In a very moving award ceremony, Steffi, moved to tears, donated her prize money of $70,000 to aid in the development of tennis in the Eastern part of her country. She was given an extended standing ovation.
1990 was a mixed year for Steffi - only 1 Grand Slam title, a 72-5 record and 9 titles! Anyone else would consider this a wonderful year.
February 1991 - This may have been a low point in Steffi's career as she actually considered quitting tennis. 1990 had been a mediocre year for her high standards - 72 wins and 5 losses - only one Grand Slam title! - and when 1991 started out with a quarter-final loss in the Australian Open to Jana Novotna (7-5,4-6,6-8) and then a quarter-final loss in Tokyo a week later to Gabriela Sabatini (6-4,4-6,6-7(6)), Steffi was discouraged. Steffi didn't win a title in 1991 until the 31st March when she beat Monica Seles in San Antonio (6-4,6-3). That was the tonic she needed.
10th March 1991 - Steffi relinquished the number 1 ranking to Monica Seles becoming number 2. She had completed a record 186 consecutive weeks as number 1.
6th July 1991 - Steffi, getting back on track, had a come from behind win against Sabatini in the final at Wimbledon (6-4,3-6,8-6).
5th August 1991 - Steffi regained the number 1 ranking for one week only - enough to be seeded number 1 in the U.S. Open. Steffi lost to Martina in the semis 6-7(2-7),7-6(8-6),4-6 in the Open.
19th August 1991 - Steffi regained the number 1 ranking again.
8th September 1991 - Steffi slipped to number 2 behind Seles again.
October 1991 - The Steffi Graf Youth Tennis Centre was founded in Leipzig.
2nd October 1991 - Steffi won her 500th match - 6 months ahead of the pace set by Chris Evert in her own career.
Steffi was unable to play the Australian Open in 1992.
6th June 1992 - Perhaps one of Steffi's most heartbreaking losses occured in the final of the French Open. She lost to Monica Seles 2-6,6-3,8-10. The play was very high quality. Steffi trailed most of the final set. Trailing 3-5 and with Steffi serving, Steffi had to fight off 4 Championship points for Seles before she won that game. Steffi then took the next two games to lead 6-5 and then 7-6, but Seles levelled to 7-7. Seles then led 7-8 and Steffi broke service to level at 8-8. Seles won the next two games. One commiseration was that the crowd at Roland Garros gave Steffi a rapturous reception that moved her to tears.
4th July 1992 - Steffi exacted sweet revenge on Seles by whipping her 6-2,6-1 in the final of Wimbledon.
July 1992 - In Frankfurt, Steffi led Germany to a win over Spain to win the Fed Cup. Steffi defeated Sanchez Vicario 6-4,6-2 in the final.
August 1992 - Steffi lost to Jennifer Capriati (6-3,3-6,4-6) in the final of the Olympics in Barcelona.
January 1993 - Germany won the Hopman Cup for the first time defeating Spain 2-1. Steffi defeated Arantxa Sanchez Vicario 6-4, 6-3; Michael Stich beat Emilio Sanchez 7-5, 6-4. The Spaniards won the mixed doubles.
30th January 1993 - Steffi lost to Monica Seles 6-4,3-6,2-6 in the final of the Australian Open.
14th March 1993 - Steffi won her 600th match.
April 1993 - A so-called fan of Steffi's stabbed Monica Seles in Hamburg. This horrible event obviously damaged Monica Seles, but also had a big effect on Steffi.
5th June 1993 - Steffi defeated Mary Joe Fernandez 4-6,6-2,6-4 in the final of the French Open.
7th June 1993 - Steffi regained the number 1 ranking.
3rd July 1993 - Steffi defeated Jana Novotna 7-6(6),1-6,6-4 in the final of Wimbledon.
11th September 1993 - Steffi defeated Helena Sukova 6-3,6-3 in the final of the U.S. Open. Steffi is the only player, man or woman, to have won all 4 Grand Slam titles in the '90s.
21st November 1993 - Steffi defeated Arantxa Sanchez Vicario in the finals of the Masters (Virginia Slims Championships) 6-1,6-4,3-6,6-1.
29th January 1994 - Steffi blitzed Arantxa Sanchez Vicario 6-0,6-2 in the final of the Australian Open and thereby completed a non-calendar year Grand Slam, only the second woman to do so. Martina Navratilova was the other in 1983-84.
6th February 1994 - In Tokyo, Steffi played Martina for the last time and defeated her 6-2,6-4 in the final of the Pan Pacific Open. This win leveled their head-to-head record at 9 wins each.
7th February 1994 - Steffi's ranking average hit 441.1746 which is the highest ranking average ever achieved by any player. Steffi had 6617.6185 points divided by 15 tournaments to arrive at this average. She held on to this average for three weeks until 28th February 1994 when it slipped to 429.8512 which was based upon 6877.6185 points divided by 16 tournaments. On the 21st March, 1994 Steffi's points actually peaked at 6951.6185 points which when divided by 16 tournaments yielded an average of 434.4762.
February/March 1994 - Steffi won three tournaments within a three week period - winning in Indian Wells on 27th February, in Delray Beach on 6th March and at Key Biscayne on 19th March. Since the Lipton is played over 10 days, the win at Key Biscayne was, technically, not precisely within a three week period. It was still a great achievement.
19th March 1994 - In the final of the Lipton against Natasha Zvereva, Steffi lost the first set thereby ending a streak of 57 consecutive sets without loss. The streak started in the final set of the 1993 Masters and extended through 27 consecutive matches in 1994, breaking a record set by Monica Seles in 1990.
3rd June 1994 - Mary Pierce defeated Steffi 6-2,6-2 in the semi-final of the French Open.
21st June 1994 - Defending Champion Steffi lost in the first round of Wimbledon to Lori McNeil 5-7,6-7(5).
21st August 1994 - In a final that would take six hours to complete owing to rain delays, and with Steffi receiving treatment for her painful back, Steffi lost to Arantxa Sanchez Vicario 5-7,6-1,6-7(4) at the Canadian Open. This was the most courageous and inspiring match that one can imagine. Steffi, refusing to give into the agony she was suffering and with the constant rain delays, won the hearts of the crowd in Montréal. Steffi was in tears and she wasn't the only one!
10th September 1994 - Once again bothered by her back, Steffi lost the final of the U.S. Open to Arantxa Sanchez Vicario. Steffi won the first set 6-1 in 22 minutes, but lost the second 6-7(3) and the third 4-6.
6th February 1995 - Steffi lost the number 1 ranking to Arantxa Sanchez Vicario. She would regain the top position on the 20th February for one week.
After an extensive layoff which meant missing the Australian Open, Steffi returned to tennis in 1995 winning titles in Paris, Delray Beach, Key Biscayne and Houston. The Houston title was her 90th title.
10th April 1995 - Steffi regained the number 1 ranking.
15th May 1995 - Steffi slipped to number 2 again behind Arantxa Sanchez Vicario.
10th June 1995 - Steffi defeated Arantxa Sanchez Vicario 7-5,4-6,6-0 in the final of the French Open. Steffi's 4th French Open title.
Steffi regained the number 1 ranking again - which she has held ever since.
6th July 1995 - Steffi won her 750th match defeating Jana Novotna 5-7,6-4,6-2 in the semi-finals of Wimbledon.
8th July 1995 - Steffi defeated Arantxa Sanchez Vicario 4-6,6-1,7-5 to claim her 6th Wimbledon title. This match featured a titanic 11th game of the third set that featured 32 points, 13 deuces, 8 game points for Arantxa, 6 break points for Steffi, 1 ace (Arantxa) and no double faults. It lasted 20 minutes and Steffi won it. Very possibly one of the finest matches ever played.
15th August 1995 - Steffi and Monica Seles to share the number 1 ranking for a period.
9th September 1995 - Steffi defeated Monica Seles 7-6(8-6),0-6,6-3 in the final of the U.S. Open. This match was the first ever match between two co-number 1 players. Steffi's 4th U.S. Open title. This was Steffi's 18th Grand Slam title - tying Martina Navratilova and Chris Evert.
8th October 1995 - Steffi reached the 300 week mark as number 1 player in the world.
20th November 1995 - Steffi defeated Anke Huber in a thrilling five set final at the Masters (Corel WTA Tour Championships) 6-1,2-6,6-1,4-6,6-3. This was Steffi's first five set match.
30th March 1996 - Steffi became the only player, man or woman, to win a fifth Lipton title and the only player, man or woman, to have won three Lipton tiles in succession. She defeated Chanda Rubin 6-1,6-3.
13th May 1996 - Steffi became the player, either male or female, who has been number one in the world the
l o n g e s t. On this day, Steffi had been number 1 for a total of 332 weeks - over 6 years.
8th June 1996 - Steffi won her 5th French Open Championship defeating Arantxa Sanchez Vicario 6-3,6-7(4)10-8. This victory was considered by Steffi to be one of her greatest. Twice in the final set, Sanchez Vicario was broken by Steffi as she served for the Championship. This title gave her 19 career Grand Slam titles, moving her ahead of Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova and tying Helen Wills Moody.
6th July 1996 - Steffi won her 7th Wimbledon Championship by defeating Arantxa Sanchez Vicario 6-3,7-5. She moved into sole second place with 20 Grand Slam titles ahead of Helen Wills Moody. This win also marked Steffi's 100th career title.
13th July 1996 - Steffi won her 800th career singles match 6-1,3-6,6-2 against Judith Wiesner.
8th September 1996 - Steffi won her 5th US Open Championship, defeating Monica Seles 7-5,6-4. Steffi's 21st Grand Slam title. The second year in succession that Steffi has won all the Grand Slam events she has played in.
16th September 1996 - Steffi marks 350th week as world number one.
5th October 1996 - Steffi has to default a match in Leipzig against Anke Huber, marking only the second time in her career that she has had to withdraw from a tournament when it was already in progress. The first time was in November 1983 against Liz Smylie at the Australian Open.
24th November 1996 - Steffi won her fifth Masters title defeating Martina Hingis is a five set match - 6-3,4-6,6-0,4-6,6-0
23rd December 1996 - Steffi marked her seventh year (364th week) as the number one ranked player on the planet.
1st January 1997 - Steffi was named the 1996 World Champion by the International Tennis Federation - this for the seventh time which is a world record.
17th January 1997 - Steffi won her 45th consecutive Grand Slam match which tied the record with Martina Navratilova.
2nd February 1997 - Owing to a patella tendon injury in her left knee, Steffi had to default the final in Tokyo to Hingis and started a prolonged injury break.
19th March 1997 - Steffi was elected WTA Player of The Year by her peers for the eighth time in her career and a record eighth time in ten years. She was also elected the Most Exciting Player by tennis fans.
31st March 1997 - Steffi slipped to number 2 in the rankings, after not being able to defend 1996 points due to injury. She had been number 1 for a record 377 weeks.
12th May 1997 - Steffi returned to the Tour after her second longest period of injury.
16th May 1997 - Steffi lost to Amanda Coetzer 0-6, 1-6 in Berlin - her worst match ever.
9th June 1997 - Steffi slipped to ranking position #3 - the first time since March 1987 that she has not been ranked either #1 or #2.
10th June 1997 - Steffi Graf had a second operation on her left knee and started another prolonged injury break.
16th February 1998 - Steffi Graf returns to tennis in Hannover at the Faber Grand Prix after her longest layoff lasting eight months. She plays a doubles match with Barbara Rittner and they defeat Meike Babel and Wiltrud Probst 6-3,6-1.
10th March 1998 - Steffi Graf moved past Virginia Wade on the career wins list notching up win number 840 and taking position 3 after Martina Navratilova and Chris Evert.
12th March 1998 - Steffi injured her left hamstring in a match v. Lindsay Davenport at Indian Wells, defaulting the match. This injury led to an injury in her right ankle while practising on another comeback attempt.
4th May 1998 - In an interview in Focus, a German newsmagazine, Steffi admits that she may have to retire. She forgoes any attempt at a return to the clay court season and decides to try for Wimbledon instead.
8th June 1998 - Steffi dropped off the singles rankings as she no longer had played the required minimum of three tournaments in the past twelve months to have a ranking.
10th June 1998 - Steffi returns to the Tour in Birmingham on grass. She defeated her friend Rennae Stubbs 5-7, 6-2, 6-4.
18th June 1998 - Steffi lost her 100th career match and it took nearly 16 years!. That's an amazingly low average of just 6.5 losses a year. The match was against Anna Kournikova and the score was 6-7(4), 6-3, 6-4 to Kournikova.
29th August 1998 - Steffi plays in her first final since May 1997 and wins it 6-4, 6-1 against Jana Novotna. This marks her 104th career title and the 13th year in succession where Steffi has won at least one title.
7th November 1998 - Steffi Graf became the player who has earned more money than any other female athlete ever bypassing Martina Navratilova.
8th November 1998 - After all the injury problems of 1997 and 1998, Steffi won her 105th career title defeating Nathalie Tauziat in the final of the Sparkassen Cup 6-3, 6-4.
November 1998 - Steffi followed her tournament win in Leipzig with another one in Philadelphia, but what made this month so memorable was that in the space of five days she defeated the top three ranked players - Davenport (1), Hingis (2) and Novotna (3). Then to ice that cake, she also defeated two other top ten players Monica Seles (6) and Nathalie Tauziat (9) to finish a spectacular two weeks. Defeating the top three players in five days has never been done before by one player - Graf set another mark. This mark was even more special in that there were three players currently or formerly ranked at number 1 in this streak.
11th May 1999 - Steffi played her 1000th game and defeated Sandra Nacuk of Yugoslavia 2-6, 6-3, 6-4. Aptly, it happened in Berlin.
5th June 1999 - After a drought since September 1996, Steffi won her 22nd Grand Slam title, her 6th French Open title by defeating Martina Hingis 4-6, 7-5, 6-2. Steffi did this at age 29 years, 356 days. On the way to the title, Steffi defeated the number 3 player (Seles), the number 2 player (Davenport) and the number 1 player (Hingis) in consecutive matches. This was the first time this has been done in a Grand Slam. Steffi announced that this was her last match at Roland Garros.
28th June 1999 - Steffi won her 900th career match against Clijsters in the round of 16 at Wimbledon.
4th July 1999 - Steffi lost to Davenport in the final of The Championships 4-6, 5-7. She announced that this was her last match at Wimbledon.
13th August 1999 - Steffi announced her retirement from tennis.
11th July 2004 - Stefanie inducted into the International Tennis Hall of Fame in Newport, Rhode Island, USA.
:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :wavey: :wavey: :wavey: :worship: :worship: :worship:

Did anyone at all actually read to the bottom of this post? you deserve a medal if you did!

Crazy Canuck
Apr 18th, 2005, 06:25 AM
Did anyone at all actually read to the bottom of this post? you deserve a medal if you did!
I didn't read any of that post. Though to be fair, I didn't read your stat post either. Only because I've compared their stats on my own time many years ago ;)

Philbo
Apr 18th, 2005, 06:30 AM
I didn't read any of that post. Though to be fair, I didn't read your stat post either. Only because I've compared their stats on my own time many years ago ;)

Understood.... mine was for the benefit of newbies..:)

SM
Apr 18th, 2005, 02:00 PM
fraulein stefi are u just gonna post facts or actually develop some form of argument with some reasoning? i actually read half of that (poor me)...

this is a topic u could debate forever and i enjoyed reading some of the posts :)

DA FOREHAND
Apr 18th, 2005, 02:04 PM
Steffi's greatness was established before the "stuck pig"(navratilova's words not mine) ever came on the scene.

vogus
Apr 18th, 2005, 02:07 PM
When it comes to singles (which, in my mind, matters more than doubles), Steffi Graf is the best player in the history of tennis. How could people argue against that? The only argument I have heard is the "Martina played longer! Therefore she is better!" argument. But that is complete bullshit, since Graf was able to win 4 more majors than Martina while having a considerably shorter career.


don't be an ignoramus - or, failing that, at least try not to start threads like one.

Mattographer
Apr 18th, 2005, 02:14 PM
Here we goes again :rolleyes:

schris
Apr 18th, 2005, 04:07 PM
Please, read this article...

http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?t=161878

Geisha
Apr 18th, 2005, 04:39 PM
This is very tough. I really don't know who to choose. But, I think it is important to look at the serious competition in these times:

Navratilova definitely had weaker competition than Graf, but unlike Graf, Evert was constantly battling Navratilova. Chris Evert could also be considered one of the Greatest Players of All-Time, while nobody Graf played against in her Prime, could be.

Also, I hate to bring it up again, but Graf's Slams would undoubtedly be shortened if Monica Seles was around. I am definitely not saying Monica would have won them all, but she could have won four of five more Slams.

I have said this involving Venus and Serena and many other players at many different times, we cannot use Steffi's injuries as an excuse for her results. Part of being an athlete is being fit and the best players are the ones who stayed fit the longest- Martina Navratilova.

Kart
Apr 18th, 2005, 05:08 PM
When it comes to singles (which, in my mind, matters more than doubles), Steffi Graf is the best player in the history of tennis. How could people argue against that? The only argument I have heard is the "Martina played longer! Therefore she is better!" argument. But that is complete bullshit, since Graf was able to win 4 more majors than Martina while having a considerably shorter career.

I take it you've seen both of them play at their best rather than relied solely on statistics.

Calimero377
Apr 18th, 2005, 06:23 PM
:bs: All these OLD SKOOL threads! :zzz:


Are we trying to determine:

Greatest Singles Player?

or

Greatest Player?

---------------------------

Graf:

Singles: 107 Doubles: 11

Navratilova:

Singles: 167 Doubles: 174



Navratilova holds 167 singles titles, more than any man or woman; won at least one tour event a year for 21 consecutive years; holds 173 doubles titles.


Enough said. :wavey:


Yeah, and don't forget the MIXED doubles. They don't call it the "legend maker" for nothing ....

:lol:

Calimero377
Apr 18th, 2005, 06:25 PM
If you don't believe that Nav has a case, given all of her stats, when why should anybody bother trying to convince you? Not only is your mind made up, but you've made it clear that you can only see one side of things.


We must not forget that EVEN in the U.S. most experts think that Graf was the greatest-ever.

:worship: :worship: :worship:

Calimero377
Apr 18th, 2005, 06:34 PM
And remember, Navratilova was able to do this without her biggest rival and threat being stabbed in the back by a deranged fan...


We must not forget that Austin overtook Evert & Navratilova in 1980 and was set to dominate the 80ies. But then injuries struck and she had to retire.
So Navi only had Evert as a serious contender for the big titles. As Chrissie was not very good on grass Navi was able grab a lot of Wimbledons (her main contribution to her legacy).
But then a young, beautiful blonde from Germany took Navi's crown away, beating her like a drum in Wimbledon, winning each slam a least 4 times, winning FO/Wim/USO in the same year a record 4 times, making year end's #1 a record 8 times, being #1 for a record 377 weeks.
As the BBC reporter said at the end of Graf's great Wimbledon 88 win: "But I think, this young German has lifted women's tennis to a new level."

Well said ...

:worship: :worship: :worship:

1jackson2001
Apr 18th, 2005, 06:37 PM
· Steffi won the Lipton 5 times - a record for a man or woman. The Lipton is the biggest tournament outside the Grand Slams.

This is false. Please research your facts well before trying to make an argument. :)

Andre Agassi has won it 6 times...

Calimero377
Apr 18th, 2005, 06:38 PM
Please, read this article...

http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?t=161878


Steve Flink (in his great book "The Greatest Tennis Matches of the Twentieth Century") comes to the same conclusion: Graf is the greatest-ever.
Fein and Flink both are Americans ....

tennislover
Apr 18th, 2005, 06:51 PM
:bs: All these OLD SKOOL threads! :zzz:


Are we trying to determine:

Greatest Singles Player?

or

Greatest Player?

---------------------------

Graf:

Singles: 107 Doubles: 11

Navratilova:

Singles: 167 Doubles: 174



Navratilova holds 167 singles titles, more than any man or woman; won at least one tour event a year for 21 consecutive years; holds 173 doubles titles.


Enough said. :wavey:


well said! :worship:

tennislover
Apr 18th, 2005, 06:55 PM
Good call Crazy canuck.. But I'll indulge him anway..

Martina is the most dominant player since the open era, possibly ever.. She holds 3 of the top 5 winning streaks ever.. At one point she won 72 matches in a row, lost once, then won 50 something matches in a row.. that gave her something like 128 -1 match total over a period of about 1.5 years.

Martina won 6 consecutive slams without interruption. Something unequalled.

If all you have as 'evidence' that Martina doesnt have a claim to the best ever is the fact that Graf won 4 more slams, you really need to investigate why Graf ended up with 4 more slams..

The fact that during the early part of her career, from the mid 70's to around 81/82, the top players didnt play the Australian Open at all and often missed out on the French..Martina herself did not play the French Or Australian Open from 1976 thru to 1979. In 1980 she played Oz Open but still not the French... So the fact that for Graf's entire career, ALL the slams had all the top players present means she had more opportunity to rack up the victories..

I wont even bother going into a big spiel about the fact that Martina had one of the other top 5 players of all time as a rival during her entire peak - Chris Evert. Steffi got hers taken out of the game. It had an effect, how big is detabable, but for people to try claiming Graf didnt benefit is just a laughable joke.

On top of that, the HUGE thing in Martina's favour is LONGEVITY. Steffi's longevity just doesnt compare to Martina's at all. Martina from the age of 34+ went 2-2 with Graf the last 4 times they played in the 90's...That alone puts a question mark over Grafs claim - if-well-beyond-her-peak-martina can still compete equally with a PEAK Graf (early to mid 20's) it stands to logic that peak Martina will have an edge of peak Graf.

At age 36 Martina was still capable of beating peak Seles and peak Graf on a good day... She has totally dominant head to heads against many of the top players of the NEXT GENERATION..For example ASV, Sabatini, not to mention her 9-9 head to head against Graf which reflects way better on Martina than Graf IMO...

The only thing I'll say on doubles is this... Doubles results shouldnt count towards determining who the best SINGLES player ever is. However the fact that Martina won her 18 singles slams whilst also winning 31 odd doubles grand slams adds to Martina's claim for one simple fact - Martina won her singles championships with 3 TIMES THE WORKLOAD OF GRAF. Graf wasnt up to playing doubles in the same tournament which is her shortcoming. Martina deserves some credit for racking up her victories with a much tougher workload.

:worship: :worship: :worship:
case closed

LDVTennis
Apr 18th, 2005, 08:55 PM
Czechfan, such tricks are for kids. So, how about some complexity to make things a little bit more interesting.

Major wins in a row or in a string:

So, you think 6 slams in a row is unequalled? How about Steffi's run of 8 of 9 majors from '88 to '90. That run includes a Calendar Year Grand Slam, something only Connolly and Court had ever done before. NOT MARTINA, only Steffi, Maureen, and Margaret. For Steffi, that Calendar Year Grand Slam came the first year after she won her first major. How many years did MARTINA try only to come up empty-handed?

Legitimacy of Major wins and/or Level of Competition:

If you really want to call into question the legitimacy of Graf's major wins on the basis of the competition level, perhaps we should do the same for Martina.

Isn't it questionable, for instance, how from your perspective Martina never competed or won/lost against anyone who wasn't at their peak? Primarily Chris and Steffi? Despite being two years older and having competed against the likes of Margaret Court at least 3 years before Martina ever faced the same level of competition, somehow we are supposed to believe that Chris was always at her peak against Martina.

Same goes for Steffi. Despite the fact that you've tried numerous times to mitigate Martina's losses to Steffi from '88 to '89 by claiming that Martina was "burn-out," somehow we are supposed to believe that Steffi was always at her peak against Martina, specifically from '91 to '93.

And, what about Martina's other competition? You are only so ready to call into question Steffi's competition because of the absence of Seles from mid '93 to late '95. Yet, somehow from your perspective the absence of Tracy Austin (due to a series of injuries), Andrea Jaeger (due to injury/burn-out), and Hana Mandlikova (due to mental inconsistency) made no difference whatsoever to the level of competition that Martina faced in her prime. I wonder why?

But, your cleverness doesn't stop there, does it? You seem bent on also suggesting that had Navratilova played in the FO and the AO from '76 to '79 she'd have more major titles to her name. What you don't see is that this argument works both ways. From the time she turned pro in '83, Steffi missed 7 of 17 AO's, 1 of 17 FO's, 3 of 17 Wimbledon's, and 3 of 17 US Opens. That is 14 missed opportunities to increase her total number of major wins.

Record against Steffi in the '90's:

I'll remind you about what I said earlier. From '91 to '93, Steffi experienced a period of burn-out. I know you have no trouble with the reality of being "burn-out" because you often use that that very excuse to explain Martina's losses to Steffi from '88 to '89. However good Martina's wins against Steffi look to you from '91 to '93, they are mitigated by the fact that Steffi was not anywhere near her peak form of '88 to '89. In '94, Steffi was nearly back to her peak form and in the last match they ever played she dismissed Martina, 6-2, 6-4.

Head to Head:

The head to head record did end up being 9-9. But, in your immortal words, this bears some investigation. From '87 (the year that Graf won her first major) to '94 (the last year of Martina's singles career), the head to head record is 8-4 in Steffi's favor. If we use '88 or the first full year that Graf held the No. 1 ranking as the starting point, the head to head record is 6-2 in Graf's favor. Of those two losses from '88 to '94, only one of them occurred while Graf was the No. 1 player in the world. That means that Martina's record against Steffi while she was No. 1 from '88 to '94 is 1-5. Yes, in as sardonic a tone as I can muster, that 1-5 record is a tribute to Martina's ability to compete against Graf at her peak.

Longevity:

Martina ended her first singles career in '94 at age 37. While that seems extraordinary at first when compared to Graf who retired at age 30, this age difference also bears some investigation.

Martina begain playing on the pro circuit in 1973 (at the age of 16). From 1973 to 1981 (7 years or so), she played in a physical condition that didn't in any way resemble the peak physical condition she would reach in '82. Prior to '82, in fact, she was often described as being chubby and lacking endurance. Martina would maintain her peak physical condition more or less from '82 to '93, almost 9 years.

Graf began playing on the pro circuit in 1982 (at the age of 13). From 1982 to 1986 (4 years or so), she was pretty much a skinny, lithe girl. By 1987, she had almost fully developed the body that would become her trademark for the next 12 years, long muscular legs, small hips, almost perfect proportions, and what seemed like not an ounce of fat. She would mantain and improve this level of conditioning from '87 to '99. That is almost 12 years.

Draw your own conclusions!

The Next Generation:

The most ridiculous claim Czechfan makes is to declare that Martina has a winning record against many of the top players of the NEXT GENERATION. As examples of that NEXT GENERATION, he cites ASV and Gabby.

Well, as it turns out, so does Steffi. And, Steffi played them (ASV and Gabby) more times and at stages in their careers when these two players were actually at their peak form.

Of course, any claim that a Martina fan can make with respect to the Next Generation pales in comparison to the claims a Graf fan can make. Here we simply have you beat. And, it is not even close. While Martina can claim to have a winning record against ASV and Gabby (contemporaries more or less of Steffi), Steffi can claim to have a winning record against Seles as well. But, here is the clincher. While Martina can hardly claim to have a winning record against Seles, Steffi can even claim to have a winning record against a group of No. 1 players from an even younger generation (i.e., Davenport, Hingis, Clijsters, and Venus Williams). Indeed, while Martina can barely compete against today's top doubles players, Steffi can still lay claim to having a winning record over the current No. 1 singles player, Lindsay Davenport and, moreover, to having a winning record against the hottest player on the tour right now, Kim Clijsters. How's that for transcending the generations?

Philbo
Apr 18th, 2005, 10:30 PM
LDV - I cant be bothered debating with you, as I said, my post was for the benefit of newbies..

You wont change my opinion, I wont dent yours.. Not in the mood to waste my time on you today..

Asmus
Apr 18th, 2005, 10:33 PM
Their head-to-head forever stands at 9-9. Let's leave it at that.

Calimero377
Apr 19th, 2005, 12:24 AM
Good call Crazy canuck.. But I'll indulge him anway..

....
Martina won 6 consecutive slams without interruption. Something unequalled.


Connolly 1952/53 ....

LDVTennis
Apr 19th, 2005, 01:51 AM
LDV - I cant be bothered debating with you, as I said, my post was for the benefit of newbies..

You wont change my opinion, I wont dent yours.. Not in the mood to waste my time on you today..

I didn't write that post for the benefit of you.

I didn't have any intention of changing your opinion. Why would I want to?

I think someone flatters himself much to much when he thinks that I was initiating a debate.

VeNuS#1LoVa
Apr 19th, 2005, 01:54 AM
It's not about longevity, it's about effectiveness.

Graf was the better player.

Philbo
Apr 19th, 2005, 01:58 AM
I didn't write that post for the benefit of you.

I didn't have any intention of changing your opinion. Why would I want to?

I think someone flatters himself much to much when he thinks that I was initiating a debate.

Oh really? Funny that considering you named me twice in the post, and addressed a large chunk of it to me... saying "you this and you that"...

There is so much easy to pick apart crap in your post - its littered with laughable bullshit.., but its all been done before and its a waste of time..

mboyle
Apr 19th, 2005, 02:12 AM
let's look at number of slams played (not including last year's Wimbledon/French Opens because those were seriously in jest, guys) vs. number won. Martina wins, no?

Let's look at who had better competition. Martina wins hands flat on the floor down (come on ASV? Sabatini? Martinez? Not even top 40/50 all time vs. Chris Evert, Evonne Goolagong, Court, Wade, etc.)

Let's look at who won more singles titles. Martina again.

Let's look at who was most dominant. Martina, clearly.

Oh wow Steffi won the olympics. That really matters a lot, doesn't it.

Oh wow Steffi won all four majors in one year. Who the hell cares whether they all come in one year? January to June (gap from Oz to Paris) is longer than September to January (gap from NY to Oz) because tennis doesn't really have an off season. Therefore, it is ludicrus to assign more value to winning 4 consecutive slams that happen to come in one year than to winning 4 consecutive slams across two years. Martina won 6 consecutive anyway, so...

DA FOREHAND
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:11 PM
"The Next Generation:

The most ridiculous claim Czechfan makes is to declare that Martina has a winning record against many of the top players of the NEXT GENERATION. As examples of that NEXT GENERATION, he cites ASV and Gabby.

Well, as it turns out, so does Steffi. And, Steffi played them (ASV and Gabby) more times and at stages in their careers when these two players were actually at their peak form.

Of course, any claim that a Martina fan can make with respect to the Next Generation pales in comparison to the claims a Graf fan can make. Here we simply have you beat. And, it is not even close. While Martina can claim to have a winning record against ASV and Gabby (contemporaries more or less of Steffi), Steffi can claim to have a winning record against Seles as well. But, here is the clincher. While Martina can hardly claim to have a winning record against Seles, Steffi can even claim to have a winning record against a group of No. 1 players from an even younger generation (i.e., Davenport, Hingis, Clijsters, and Venus Williams). Indeed, while Martina can barely compete against today's top doubles players, Steffi can still lay claim to having a winning record over the current No. 1 singles player, Lindsay Davenport and, moreover, to having a winning record against the hottest player on the tour right now, Kim Clijsters. How's that for transcending the generations?"


To me these debates don't really come down to # of titles won, # of mixed and doubles titles won, simply put who was the better player, and when you break that down there's no doubt in my mind that Steffi Graf is the best singles player of all time.

She not only beat an entire new generation of players, she literally owned the most dominant player from that era...Martina Hingis. That is a testament to a game that transcended generations a healthy Steffi Graf would easily be a top five player.

moby
Apr 19th, 2005, 06:04 PM
Their head-to-head forever stands at 9-9. Let's leave it at that.
:worship:

LDVTennis
Apr 19th, 2005, 08:18 PM
Oh really? Funny that considering you named me twice in the post, and addressed a large chunk of it to me... saying "you this and you that"...

There is so much easy to pick apart crap in your post - its littered with laughable bullshit.., but its all been done before and its a waste of time..

Two points of information and one answer.

Point #1: When you find a reference to yourself in one of my posts, do not by any means interpret that as a direct reference to you. In fact, take a clue from how I refer to you in the last paragraph of my first post, and identify yourself accordingly.

Point #2: Does everyone here know that Czechfan's obsession with Martina is rooted in the fact that by his own admission "he" (a man) looks like Martina. If it were not for all the crap he posts, I would actually feel sorry for him.

Answer #1: So, in response to JenFan's original query, I would say - I think that is what you don't get. Or, to put it another way, Would we be having these arguments if Czechfan didn't look like Martina?

raquel
Apr 19th, 2005, 08:35 PM
From '91 to '93, Steffi experienced a period of burn-out.
5 Grand Slams and 2 other GS finals - that must be the best 'burn out' period in history. I think Steffi's level was not as high during those years as it had been in the years before, off court distractions not helping, but if she was that burned out she would not have played as much as she did. I read in an interview that Andrea Jaeger burned out with too much tennis too young to the point that she was suffering from nervous exhaustion and literally couldn't face a tennis court. I don't think Steffi was like that in 1991-1993 when you look at what she did in those years. She just was not as good as she had been by her own high standards and Monica played better at the Slams 1991-Australia 1993 (Wimbledon 1992 excluded).

LDVTennis
Apr 19th, 2005, 08:44 PM
5 Grand Slams and 2 other GS finals - that must be the best 'burn out' period in history. I think Steffi's level was not as high during those years as it had been in the years before, off court distractions not helping, but if she was that burned out she would have played as much as she did. I read in an interview that Andrea Jaeger burned out with too much tennis too young to the point that she was suffering from nervous exhaustion and literally couldn't face a tennis court. I don't think Steffi was like that in 1991-1993 when you look at what she did in those years. She just was not as good as she had been by her own high standards and Monica played better at the Slams 1991-Australia 1993 (Wimbledon 1992 excluded).

Here are Steffi's own words on the subject. She refers to that period in the context of discussing what new coach Heinz Gunthardt meant to her game:

"I would say that it started with Heinz. That is what I really have to say. He had a lot of ideas which I wasn't just -- at that moment, I needed a change, I needed a push. For a couple of years I wasn't working as hard. I didn't do anything different. I just was playing tennis as a routine and he changed that. He made it more difficult, but he just -- he just showed me things that I wasn't shown at that stage. So I would think that he was the biggest change, the best change that I have had" (1994 Lipton Postmatch NewsConference, http://steffigraf.8m.com/Interview/94lipq.htm).

jimbo mack
Apr 19th, 2005, 08:46 PM
steffi won a slam with hingis, davenport, novotna, seles, venus, serena, sanchez, pierce and martinez all playing

nav would have NEVER EVER been able to do that!! :lol:

i think thats answers the question that steffi was a much, much better player than nav

nav's has had the better career only cuz of longevity and a competition that was embarassingly weak compared to now

if graf played as many years as nav had, then graf would have no doubt over taken nav's achievements no problem

but steffi's life is not revolved all round tennis and wanted a life away from tennis making a family etc...... unlike some who wants to play til the day they die :tape: :tape:

darren cahill
Apr 19th, 2005, 08:53 PM
How many slams did Steffi play that Serena and Venus played as well?:confused: As much as i love Graf, i wouldnt go to that length to prove the depth. Steffi had a lot of tricky oppenents to deal with but i wouldnt call Novotna and Mary or Conchita real threats. sure they beat her, but she beat them more. I always thought Martina was more afraid of Graf then the other way around. Just my 2 cents. i thought that pretty much summed things up. BUt that said, i dont know why one has to be better then the other? and why people NEED to make one a better player? I love both and am grateful they shared their talents with us. I couldnt give a hoot which one everyone else thinks is better. its not like we havent all made up our minds anyhow and its not like someones post is going to change anyones mind and have us say "well you know, i now think Steffi was the best due to the post above"

Pamela Shriver
Apr 19th, 2005, 08:56 PM
I whipped and owned Steffi at the Garden once. Martina needed me to carry her. So thus, it is impossible to separate them.

jimbo mack
Apr 19th, 2005, 08:56 PM
How many slams did Steffi play that Serena and Venus played as well?:confused: As much as i love Graf, i wouldnt go to that length to prove the depth. Steffi had a lot of tricky oppenents to deal with but i wouldnt call Novotna and Mary or Conchita real threats. sure they beat her, but she beat them more. I always thought Martina was more afraid of Graf then the other way around. Just my 2 cents. i thought that pretty much summed things up. BUt that said, i dont know why one has to be better then the other? and why people NEED to make one a better player? I love both and am grateful they shared their talents with us. I couldnt give a hoot which one everyone else thinks is better. its not like we havent all made up our minds anyhow and its not like someones post is going to change anyones mind and have us say "well you know, i now think Steffi was the best due to the post above"

i was highlighting that steffi had many more contenders for her slams, where as in nav's prime day there were no where near as many

i wasnt suggesting that conchita could beat whovever etc etc

jimbo mack
Apr 19th, 2005, 09:01 PM
I whipped and owned Steffi at the Garden once. Martina needed me to carry her. So thus, it is impossible to separate them.

not as badly as steffi whipped pam in this match :p :devil:

1988 WIMBLEDON SEMI-FINAL- GRASS- S.GRAF BT P. SHRIVER 6-1 6-2

now thats what i call a whipping, not a 6/3 7/6 loss

darren cahill
Apr 19th, 2005, 09:02 PM
i was highlighting that steffi had many more contenders for her slams, where as in nav's prime day there were no where near as many

i wasnt suggesting that conchita could beat whovever etc etc

oh there were many who could have won majors if Martina wasnt so great. SHe just hardly lost before a final. Chris would have won a lot more had Martina not been around, Pam would have most likely won a couple, Andrea Jaeger made some finals. Tracy might have won more. they were there.

darren cahill
Apr 19th, 2005, 09:02 PM
not as badly as steffi whipped pam in this match :p :devil:

1988 WIMBLEDON SEMI-FINAL- GRASS- S.GRAF BT P. SHRIVER 6-1 6-2

now thats what i call a whipping, not a 6/3 7/6 loss

wasnt the 87 semi even worse? 60 62?:o

Calimero377
Apr 19th, 2005, 09:08 PM
let's look at number of slams played (not including last year's Wimbledon/French Opens because those were seriously in jest, guys) vs. number won. Martina wins, no? ...

Martina played 65 slams (not counting 2004) and won 18 of them.
Graf played 54 slams and won 22 of them.
Martina wins ... not.


...
Let's look at who had better competition. Martina wins hands flat on the floor down (come on ASV? Sabatini? Martinez? Not even top 40/50 all time vs. Chris Evert, Evonne Goolagong, Court, Wade, etc.) ...

Court won her last slam in 73, didn't play in 74 and had Wimbledon semis in 75 as best result in her last year.
Wade is a 3-time slam winner (last win at Wimbledon 77 when 32 years old).
Goolagong made exactly ONE slam final post-77 (won Wimbledon 80).
Navi won her first slam in Wimbledon 78 ....
Whom did Navi beat in her slam finals?
Evert, Evert & Evert. And young Graf in 87. And some journeywomen.
Wow ....

Graf beat Navratilova in 4 slam finals (twice in Wimbledon), Seles in 3 slam finals, Sanchez in 5 slam finals, Evert in one slam final, Hingis in one slam final. 5 different players who have won at least 4 slams each.



...
Let's look at who won more singles titles. Martina again.
...

Do we want to discuss the strength of the fields in many U.S. indoor tourneys around 1980?
Not really, no ... ?


...
Let's look at who was most dominant. Martina, clearly. ...


Which player had the most weeks as #1, was #1 at most year-ends?
Which player won 3+ slams in 5 years (and which only in 2 years)?
Hmmm .....


...
Oh wow Steffi won the olympics. That really matters a lot, doesn't it.

Oh wow Steffi won all four majors in one year. Who the hell cares whether they all come in one year? ...

Every tennis fan.
Exception are rabid Navratilovers only ...

darren cahill
Apr 19th, 2005, 09:12 PM
i thought that comment was dumb too...'who cares if they come in one year":rolleyes: :scratch: i mean if you want to win the GRAND SLAM, its in one year. thats just history there. if anyone wants to get technical, Steffi won the grand slam twice...the 1988 offical slam and then the last 3 of 93 and the aussie of 94. so poo poo ca choo to that

Calimero377
Apr 19th, 2005, 09:20 PM
oh there were many who could have won majors if Martina wasnt so great. SHe just hardly lost before a final. Chris would have won a lot more had Martina not been around, Pam would have most likely won a couple, Andrea Jaeger made some finals. Tracy might have won more. they were there.


Pam Shriver?
I remember what Steffi Graf did with her in 87 & 88 at Wimbledon.
Pam was 24/25 and top 5 when Steffi mauled her 6-0, 6-2 (1987) and 6-1, 6-2 (88) in semis ...

Jaeger, yeah.
Steffi really dodged a bullet there ...

Austin was double-bageled by Steffi in 1994 (OK, Tracy was over-the-hill).

darren cahill
Apr 19th, 2005, 09:22 PM
Pam Shriver?
I remember what Steffi Graf did with her in 87 & 88 at Wimbledon.
Pam was 24/25 and top 5 when Steffi mauled her 6-0, 6-2 (1987) and 6-1, 6-2 (88) in semis ...

Jaeger, yeah.
Steffi really dodged a bullet there ...

Austin was double-bageled by Steffi in 1994 (OK, Tracy was over-the-hill).

what are you talking about? I said those people could have won stuff back in Martinas day. good lord, back off a bit. I am Graf fan too ya know, you'd think you wouldnt try to annoy everyone who tries to make a point.

Calimero377
Apr 19th, 2005, 09:26 PM
what are you talking about? I said those people could have won stuff back in Martinas day. good lord, back off a bit. I am Graf fan too ya know, you'd think you wouldnt try to annoy everyone who tries to make a point.


Which point?
That without Navi some other players would have won slams?
Ahh ....

darren cahill
Apr 19th, 2005, 09:29 PM
Which point?
That without Navi some other players would have won slams?
Ahh ....

yes:worship:

Calimero377
Apr 19th, 2005, 09:32 PM
yes:worship:


Same with Pierce, Wade and Mandlikova.
Without them other players would have won the slams ...

:p

Calimero377
Apr 19th, 2005, 09:34 PM
Hate to remind you Cali, but Navvy won SIX Slams in a row.


Ask Navi whether she would prefer to have won 4 in the same calendar year ...

:lol:

darren cahill
Apr 19th, 2005, 09:50 PM
Umm, I don't think she actually gives a shit.

i think Martina was pretty upset when the 'officials' took away her supposed Grand slam status.

Calimero377
Apr 19th, 2005, 09:57 PM
Umm, I don't think she actually gives a shit.


I remember her going to great lengths to explain us that she DID make THE Grand Slam in 83/84.

Well, Martina, you didn't .... :p

darren cahill
Apr 19th, 2005, 10:07 PM
I remember her going to great lengths to explain us that she DID make THE Grand Slam in 83/84.

Well, Martina, you didn't .... :p

she got to keep the diamond bracelet though. or some sort of jewelery:tape:

Philbo
Apr 19th, 2005, 10:50 PM
Two points of information and one answer.

Point #1: When you find a reference to yourself in one of my posts, do not by any means interpret that as a direct reference to you. In fact, take a clue from how I refer to you in the last paragraph of my first post, and identify yourself accordingly.

Point #2: Does everyone here know that Czechfan's obsession with Martina is rooted in the fact that by his own admission "he" (a man) looks like Martina. If it were not for all the crap he posts, I would actually feel sorry for him.

Answer #1: So, in response to JenFan's original query, I would say - I think that is what you don't get. Or, to put it another way, Would we be having these arguments if Czechfan didn't look like Martina?

I bear a slight resemblance to Martina, although it has nothing to do with why I admire her - it got pointed out to me when I was already a fan of hers for quite a few years.. Just to correct you LDV, because as usual, you are speaking shit out your ass.

We all know LDV is biggest flaming queen on the messageboard who's idea of a good time is to walk around his house wearing high heels trying to act like a hybrid of Judy Garland and Barbara Stresiand, who is also AFRAID to even show the messageboard what he looks like, any potshots around appearance should be takenw ith a grain of salt..

Ive posted my pic many times LDV, why dont you do the same??

We could all do with a good laugh..and we may even raise some awareness about obesity in the USA...:lol: :lol: :lol:

LDVTennis
Apr 20th, 2005, 12:41 AM
I bear a slight resemblance to Martina, although it has nothing to do with why I admire her - it got pointed out to me when I was already a fan of hers for quite a few years.. Just to correct you LDV, because as usual, you are speaking shit out your ass.

Ha, ha, ha, ha... Someone has a sore spot, on their face.

Philbo
Apr 20th, 2005, 12:54 AM
Ha, ha, ha, ha... Someone has a sore spot, on their face.

Hahaha, post your own pic! Bit tooo scared of being laughed at LDV??

LDVTennis
Apr 20th, 2005, 12:58 AM
Martina played 65 slams (not counting 2004) and won 18 of them.
Graf played 54 slams and won 22 of them.


Winning percentage at majors:

Martina - 28%

Steffi - 41%.


Calimero, thanks for the numbers...

Philbo
Apr 20th, 2005, 01:04 AM
Winning percentage at majors:

Martina - 28%

Steffi - 41%.


Calimero, thanks for the numbers...

The silence speaks volumes!! hehehe :wavey:

Steffi - % over 16 years

Martina -% over 22 years

too easy...

bandabou
Apr 20th, 2005, 01:08 AM
Well, well....here we have, cali's favourite sidekick....LDV....." No Cali wouldn't say this, No Cali wouldn't say that..." " Leave my Cali, alone...."

I openly agreed with his comment about Enna being an all-time great, but when confronted....ooooppps, did I really say that? I was only agreeing with Cali...

LDVTennis
Apr 20th, 2005, 01:11 AM
Hahaha, post your own pic! Bit tooo scared of being laughed at LDV??

Yawn!

Philbo
Apr 20th, 2005, 01:30 AM
Well, well....here we have, cali's favourite sidekick....LDV....." No Cali wouldn't say this, No Cali wouldn't say that..." " Leave my Cali, alone...."

I openly agreed with his comment about Enna being an all-time great, but when confronted....ooooppps, did I really say that? I was only agreeing with Cali...

We all know LDV is Cali's lapdog.. LDV enjoys being submissive.. I think he see's Cali as his german, dominatrix 'master'.. yes sir, no sir, 3 bags full sir...

bandabou
Apr 20th, 2005, 01:33 AM
Kinda dissapointing....considering he loves to prans around that he has a college degree and reminding people how dumb they are....or how uninteligent they are compared to him.

LDVTennis
Apr 20th, 2005, 01:44 AM
Steffi - % over 16 years

Martina -% over 22 years



Didn't learn much in math class, did we?

It is pointless to qualify the winning percentage by number of years for two reasons:

First, because the winning percentage is only an estimate of the inherent capability of the player to win majors. And, therefore, it is unlikely to be a constant (over 16 or 22 years) because it is assumed almost by definition to vary over time.

Second, because as far as statistics is concerned, the quantity of time is already implicit in the quantity of majors won. Therefore, by qualifying the winning percentage by time as you do, you are, indeed, accounting for it twice.

So, in summary, your attempt to qualify the winning percentage by number of years is meaningless.

Philbo
Apr 20th, 2005, 01:50 AM
Didn't learn much in math class, did we?

It is pointless to qualify the winning percentage by number of years for two reasons:

First, because the winning percentage is only an estimate of the inherent capability of the player to win majors. And, therefore, it is unlikely to be a constant (over 16 or 22 years) because it is assumed almost by definition to vary over time.

Second, because as far as statistics is concerned, the quantity of time is already implicit in the quantity of majors won. Therefore, by qualifying the winning percentage by time as you do, you are, indeed, accounting for it twice.

So, in summary, your attempt to qualify the winning percentage by number of years is meaningless.

yawn

LDVTennis
Apr 20th, 2005, 02:02 AM
Kinda dissapointing....considering he loves to prans around that he has a college degree and reminding people how dumb they are....or how uninteligent they are compared to him.

Bandabou, does this post officially make you Czechfan's lapdog?

LDVTennis
Apr 20th, 2005, 02:04 AM
yawn

I see why you wouldn't want to reply. A stupidity about numbers is hard to hide.

bandabou
Apr 20th, 2005, 02:08 AM
Not really......because you DO have a history of agreeing with Cali...even in the absurd: mocking Monica's stabbing, calling Enna an all-time great, etc....whereas I DON'T have a history of agreeing with Czechfan...

Philbo
Apr 20th, 2005, 02:14 AM
I see why you wouldn't want to reply. A stupidity about numbers is hard to hide.

I see why you wouldnt want to post a pic.. Easy to take potshots at others appearance, but a pathetic insecurity about your own drag queen appearance is also hard to hide...

G1Player2
Apr 20th, 2005, 02:46 AM
I see why you wouldnt want to post a pic.. Easy to take potshots at others appearance, but a pathetic insecurity about your own drag queen appearance is also hard to hide...


:lol:

LDVTennis
Apr 20th, 2005, 03:08 AM
:lol:

Another of Czechfan's lapdogs has made an appearance, it seems.

kabuki
Apr 20th, 2005, 03:27 AM
Didn't learn much in math class, did we?

It is pointless to qualify the winning percentage by number of years for two reasons:

First, because the winning percentage is only an estimate of the inherent capability of the player to win majors. And, therefore, it is unlikely to be a constant (over 16 or 22 years) because it is assumed almost by definition to vary over time.

Second, because as far as statistics is concerned, the quantity of time is already implicit in the quantity of majors won. Therefore, by qualifying the winning percentage by time as you do, you are, indeed, accounting for it twice.

So, in summary, your attempt to qualify the winning percentage by number of years is meaningless.

Sorry to jump up in someone elses convo, but this post is just plain wrong.

First, winning percentage is not "an estimate of the inherent capability of the player to win majors." It is simply a representation of the proportion of slams won by slams played. It is not a prediction of a player's future performance, but an indicator of her past performance. It is also not an estimate, it is a hard number.

Second, longevity of career is very important within the context of this discussion. Martina played well beyond her prime, while Steffi chose to exit close to the top of her game. Statistical voodoo does not allow you to deny that Steffi would have been hard pressed to win another slam after her RG triumph. If she had toiled another six years on the tour, Steffi could have very well gone slamless and shared a winning % very close to Martina.

That said, IMHO, there is no answer and no end to the Graf/Navi question. :wavey:

LDVTennis
Apr 20th, 2005, 03:44 AM
I see why you wouldnt want to post a pic.. Easy to take potshots at others appearance, but a pathetic insecurity about your own drag queen appearance is also hard to hide...

I don't know. Easy? How easy? As easy as it is for you to take potshots at arguments you don't get? Or, are "crap," "bullshit," and the adjective "laughable" the extent of your critical vocabulary?

Definition of potshot: "A criticism made without careful thought and aimed at a handy target for attack."

Based on this definition, it seems like you took the first "potshot," unless, of course, as I noted above, the words "crap," "bullshit," and the adjective "laughable" represent the extent of your critical vocabulary.

So, I think we're even.

As for what the future holds, let's try this. Since I don't like you and you don't like me, why don't we just ignore each other. It is not like we are learning anything from each other. Plus, appearances to the contrary, I actually don't enjoy the taunting and the snarking.

LDVTennis
Apr 20th, 2005, 04:03 AM
Sorry to jump up in someone elses convo, but this post is just plain wrong.

First, winning percentage is not "an estimate of the inherent capability of the player to win majors." It is simply a representation of the proportion of slams won by slams played. It is not a prediction of a player's future performance, but an indicator of her past performance. It is also not an estimate, it is a hard number.

I never said it was a prediction of a player's future performance. Where in my post on the subject do I say this? For your information, the English language considers the verb "to win" an infinitive. And, as an infinitive, it has no specific tense (past, present, or future).

As to whether the percentage is an estimate or a hard number, "hard number" suggests that it is a definitive solution to a problem, such as 2 + 2 = 4. In their statistical usage, however, there is nothing "hard" about the numbers representing each winning percentage. This is true for two reasons: (1) Neither one of those numbers represents the actual winning percentage of the player in question at every stage of their career. In '88, for instance, Steffi won 4 out of 4 majors. So, her winning percentage for that year alone was 100%; and (2); Because it does vary over time, from 100% in '88 to 25% in '99, it is assumed that the number has limited predictive value, thus making it a mere estimate.

Philbo
Apr 20th, 2005, 04:36 AM
As for what the future holds, let's try this. Since I don't like you and you don't like me, why don't we just ignore each other. It is not like we are learning anything from each other. Plus, appearances to the contrary, I actually don't enjoy the taunting and the snarking.

No thanks. I'll do whatever I want - you can please yourself. The time for politeness is long gone.

I know you dont enjoy the tuanting etc - which is why you send me the pathetic whining, 'cant we just get along' PM's...the answer is NO.

kabuki
Apr 20th, 2005, 04:39 AM
I never said it was a prediction of a player's future performance. Where in my post on the subject do I say this? For your information, the English language considers the verb "to win" an infinitive. And, as an infinitive, it has no specific tense (past, present, or future).

As to whether the percentage is an estimate or a hard number, "hard number" suggests that it is a definitive solution to a problem, such as 2 + 2 = 4. In their statistical usage, however, there is nothing "hard" about the numbers representing each winning percentage. This is true for two reasons: (1) Neither one of those numbers represents the actual winning percentage of the player in question at every stage of their career. In '88, for instance, Steffi won 4 out of 4 majors. So, her winning percentage for that year alone was 100%; and (2); Because it does vary over time, from 100% in '88 to 25% in '99, it is assumed that the number has limited predictive value, thus making it a mere estimate.

Sorry. You communicated your opinion poorly IMO. Capability and ability, while seemingly interchangable, are not the same in essence. Ability is usually associated with ableness or capacity, while capability's most precise definition is an ability that has potential for use, or it is a capacity to be developed. Next time, think about succinctly saying what you are trying to say rather than unnecessarily dressing up your words in order to try to appear intelligent.

So tell me, is there an estimated number of slams Steffi played? Estimated number of slams she won? Her winning percentage is the number of slams won by the number played. It is a rock hard number.

Of course the winning % will change depending on whether you are looking at a Grand Slam year or a 16 year total career. What's your point? :confused:

And there you go again talking about winning % as a predictive value, limited or not. I thought you said it was not a predictor at all. :confused: :confused:

Are we just having another communication breakdown due to your poor English skills?

hewittrok
Apr 20th, 2005, 04:42 AM
:bs: All these OLD SKOOL threads! :zzz:


Are we trying to determine:

Greatest Singles Player?

or

Greatest Player?

---------------------------

Graf:

Singles: 107 Doubles: 11

Navratilova:

Singles: 167 Doubles: 174



Navratilova holds 167 singles titles, more than any man or woman; won at least one tour event a year for 21 consecutive years; holds 173 doubles titles.


Enough said. :wavey:

But Martina N. is soooo uglyyyyy.

LDVTennis
Apr 20th, 2005, 05:10 AM
No thanks. I'll do whatever I want - you can please yourself. The time for politeness is long gone.

I know you dont enjoy the tuanting etc - which is why you send me the pathetic whining, 'cant we just get along' PM's...the answer is NO.

FYI

I have never initiated an email exchange with Czechfan. On various occasions, he has sent me an email, ranting about something or other that I have written.

In an effort to get him to stop sending me these emails, I've tried to get him to reflect on our differences.

To my chagrin, he actually responded to even that request. Before today, that was our last personal communication. I never responded formally to the message in which he detailed our differences.

I am glad I didn't. I almost gave him the benefit of the doubt. But, he doesn't deserve it.

I don't know what his attachment is to me. But, he just won't leave me alone.

He's been emailing me ever since I made the remark that he looks like Martina.

Yet, I am the pathetic one.

Whatever makes the days seem shorter for you.

Philbo
Apr 20th, 2005, 05:20 AM
Sorry. You communicated your opinion poorly IMO. Capability and ability, while seemingly interchangable, are not the same in essence. Ability is usually associated with ableness or capacity, while capability's most precise definition is an ability that has potential for use, or it is a capacity to be developed. Next time, think about succinctly saying what you are trying to say rather than unnecessarily dressing up your words in order to try to appear intelligent.



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Priceless...

Philbo
Apr 20th, 2005, 05:25 AM
You STARTED PMing me when I showed proof that Graf said Martina should probably just retire..

You STARTED another one asking how old I am and what my level of education is

Now you've ventured into outright lies.. Its been a bad day for you LaDy V

LDVTennis
Apr 20th, 2005, 06:06 AM
Sorry. You communicated your opinion poorly IMO. Capability and ability, while seemingly interchangable, are not the same in essence. Ability is usually associated with ableness or capacity, while capability's most precise definition is an ability that has potential for use, or it is a capacity to be developed. Next time, think about succinctly saying what you are trying to say rather than unnecessarily dressing up your words in order to try to appear intelligent.

So tell me, is there an estimated number of slams Steffi played? Estimated number of slams she won? Her winning percentage is the number of slams won by the number played. It is a rock hard number.

Of course the winning % will change depending on whether you are looking at a Grand Slam year or a 16 year total career. What's your point? :confused:

And there you go again talking about winning % as a predictive value, limited or not. I thought you said it was not a predictor at all. :confused: :confused:

Are we just having another communication breakdown due to your poor English skills?

Poor English skills?

So, what am I supposed to make of your use of the word "capacity" in defining both the word "ability" and "capability"? If the word "capacity," can in any way be defined by the words "potential for growth and development," I'd say you've got yourself quite a contradiction of your own making. Now, would be a good time to look up the definition of the word "capacity." Next time I suggest you do this before appearing like a sophist.

About this much we can agree, the word "capability" connotes some kind of projection into the future. That is a function of the prefix, "cap-" And, therefore, it was exactly the word I wanted in the orginal context because unlike you I seem to understand what is meant by the limited predictive value of the percentages.

I know you don't understand because you are so quick to make fun of values that I call estimates. Simply because most statistical problems result in estimates does not mean that the problems do not start out with numbers one can trust or in your words "hard numbers." In short, most statistical problems involve the use of empirical data to construct an estimate of some quantity or value that is otherwise unknowable.

At no point in the past did we know what Steffi's actual likelihood of winning a major was. Yet, based on her winning percentage at any given point in the past, we could have made an estimate. That is the statistical usage of the winning percentage. And, as any of the estimates, particularly after the years '88 and '89, would have proven, that estimate has limited predictive value.

What explains this breakdown in communication? If I had to guess, it would be your sophistry and/or your poor theoretical understanding of statistics.

G1Player2
Apr 20th, 2005, 06:38 AM
No thanks. I'll do whatever I want - you can please yourself. The time for politeness is long gone.

I know you dont enjoy the tuanting etc - which is why you send me the pathetic whining, 'cant we just get along' PM's...the answer is NO.

OWNED....:lol: :lol: :lol:

This is hilarious...

le bon vivant
Apr 20th, 2005, 06:44 AM
Whoa...keep the skid mark stained dirty laundry out of the public view guys... :lol: :lol: :ras:

kabuki
Apr 20th, 2005, 02:00 PM
Poor English skills?

So, what am I supposed to make of your use of the word "capacity" in defining both the word "ability" and "capability"? If the word "capacity," can in any way be defined by the words "potential for growth and development," I'd say you've got yourself quite a contradiction of your own making. Now, would be a good time to look up the definition of the word "capacity." Next time I suggest you do this before appearing like a sophist.

About this much we can agree, the word "capability" connotes some kind of projection into the future. That is a function of the prefix, "cap-" And, therefore, it was exactly the word I wanted in the orginal context because unlike you I seem to understand what is meant by the limited predictive value of the percentages.

I know you don't understand because you are so quick to make fun of values that I call estimates. Simply because most statistical problems result in estimates does not mean that the problems do not start out with numbers one can trust or in your words "hard numbers." In short, most statistical problems involve the use of empirical data to construct an estimate of some quantity or value that is otherwise unknowable.

At no point in the past did we know what Steffi's actual likelihood of winning a major was. Yet, based on her winning percentage at any given point in the past, we could have made an estimate. That is the statistical usage of the winning percentage. And, as any of the estimates, particularly after the years '88 and '89, would have proven, that estimate has limited predictive value.

What explains this breakdown in communication? If I had to guess, it would be your sophistry and/or your poor theoretical understanding of statistics.

*sigh* read it again. Capacity vs. capacity to be developed. *sigh*

Sophistry? Please. Your circuitous and psuedo-intellectual babblings are so transparent it is pathetic.

Steffi's winning percentage is not a statistical problem!!! It is not an estimate. She played 54 slams. She won 22. 40.74% It is a basic math question with a basic math answer. This is just your pathetic attempt to drag the conversation into a field where you think you have an advantage.
But believe me my friend, you are not the only one to have studied statistics, the bastard child of real mathematics. Stick that in your confidence interval and smoke it.

bandabou
Apr 20th, 2005, 02:23 PM
Ooh, ooh.........folks are having a field day with poor LDV......

DA FOREHAND
Apr 20th, 2005, 02:24 PM
Sorry to jump up in someone elses convo, but this post is just plain wrong.

First, winning percentage is not "an estimate of the inherent capability of the player to win majors." It is simply a representation of the proportion of slams won by slams played. It is not a prediction of a player's future performance, but an indicator of her past performance. It is also not an estimate, it is a hard number.

Second, longevity of career is very important within the context of this discussion. Martina played well beyond her prime, while Steffi chose to exit close to the top of her game. Statistical voodoo does not allow you to deny that Steffi would have been hard pressed to win another slam after her RG triumph. If she had toiled another six years on the tour, Steffi could have very well gone slamless and shared a winning % very close to Martina.

That said, IMHO, there is no answer and no end to the Graf/Navi question. :wavey:

Make sure you take the argument into the next GRAF -v- Seles debate...not that the Selestials will be able to grasp the concept.


As far as the other point you were trying to make. Steffi Graf, retired at #3 the highest ever, had she stayed healthy there's no reason to believe she wouldn't have been able to win at least two more slams. She has a winning h2h -v- Hingis, Capriati, Davenport, and Venus. The performance she put in in 99 French would have been more than sufficient enough to win the 04 French Open. Contrary to popular belief there have been only a few players who have been able to raise the bar from where Steffi was playing in 95/96, and Hingis isn't among them.

kabuki
Apr 20th, 2005, 02:31 PM
Make sure you take the argument into the next GRAF -v- Seles debate...not that the Selestials will be able to grasp the concept.


As far as the other point you were trying to make. Steffi Graf, retired at #3 the highest ever, had she stayed healthy there's no reason to believe she wouldn't have been able to win at least two more slams. She has a winning h2h -v- Hingis, Capriati, Davenport, and Venus. The performance she put in in 99 French would have been more than sufficient enough to win the 04 French Open. Contrary to popular belief there have been only a few players who have been able to raise the bar from where Steffi was playing in 95/96, and Hingis isn't among them.

Very possible. But like most of these greatest ever arguments, there is no definitive answer.

DA FOREHAND
Apr 20th, 2005, 02:47 PM
Exactly

kabuki
Apr 20th, 2005, 02:52 PM
Exactly

Pshew. Maybe now we can stop. :unsure: :lol:

DA FOREHAND
Apr 20th, 2005, 02:57 PM
Pshew. Maybe now we can stop. :unsure: :lol:


"WE CAN", but you know the beat will go on. :wavey: :rolleyes:

bandabou
Apr 20th, 2005, 03:21 PM
Just like all those: player A is more talented, better at her peak, etc than player B...wheras it's player B that has all the acomplishments and results to back up the claim of having the better career.

Bottom line is that only results matter.

LDVTennis
Apr 20th, 2005, 04:54 PM
*sigh* read it again. Capacity vs. capacity to be developed. *sigh*

Sophistry? Please. Your circuitous and psuedo-intellectual babblings are so transparent it is pathetic.

Steffi's winning percentage is not a statistical problem!!! It is not an estimate. She played 54 slams. She won 22. 40.74% It is a basic math question with a basic math answer. This is just your pathetic attempt to drag the conversation into a field where you think you have an advantage.
But believe me my friend, you are not the only one to have studied statistics, the bastard child of real mathematics. Stick that in your confidence interval and smoke it.

Bastard child of real mathematics? Is that one of your pseudo-intellectual babblings?

Or, could it be the case that you are completely ignorant of the fact that without probability theory or a statistical description of matter certain advances in science would not be possible?

You give some people enough rope and they always hang themselves.

Kart
Apr 20th, 2005, 06:13 PM
I actually don't enjoy the taunting and the snarking.

I find that hard to believe.

rjd1111
Apr 20th, 2005, 06:31 PM
When it comes to singles (which, in my mind, matters more than doubles), Steffi Graf is the best player in the history of tennis. How could people argue against that? The only argument I have heard is the "Martina played longer! Therefore she is better!" argument. But that is complete bullshit, since Graf was able to win 4 more majors than Martina while having a considerably shorter career.


The Same way They Argue against the Fact that Serena would beat both
of them even tho They played Longer and won more titles.

LDVTennis
Apr 20th, 2005, 07:12 PM
I find that hard to believe.

Is this a taunt or a snark? I'll take a pass.

bandabou
Apr 20th, 2005, 08:14 PM
How's the talented Hana Mandiklova's % of winning at the majors compared to the untalented Serena? That's something I'd like to know...

Pengwin
Apr 20th, 2005, 08:19 PM
All sources contain bias. Stats can easily be manipulated without losing accuracy.

Giving great lists of statistics is neither here nor there.

Calimero377
Apr 20th, 2005, 09:23 PM
You STARTED PMing me when I showed proof that Graf said Martina should probably just retire..

You STARTED another one asking how old I am and what my level of education is ...

You and EDUCATION?
Wow, what a retarded question.
LDVTennis must be nuts ...

Calimero377
Apr 20th, 2005, 09:26 PM
Just like all those: player A is more talented, better at her peak, etc than player B...wheras it's player B that has all the acomplishments and results to back up the claim of having the better career.

Bottom line is that only results matter.


You talking Enna & Serena?

bandabou
Apr 20th, 2005, 09:43 PM
You talking Enna & Serena?

Could be....but the case could be aplicated on many players...

Philbo
Apr 20th, 2005, 10:27 PM
*sigh* read it again. Capacity vs. capacity to be developed. *sigh*

Sophistry? Please. Your circuitous and psuedo-intellectual babblings are so transparent it is pathetic.

Steffi's winning percentage is not a statistical problem!!! It is not an estimate. She played 54 slams. She won 22. 40.74% It is a basic math question with a basic math answer. This is just your pathetic attempt to drag the conversation into a field where you think you have an advantage.
But believe me my friend, you are not the only one to have studied statistics, the bastard child of real mathematics. Stick that in your confidence interval and smoke it.

HAHAHA

LaDy V - SO. VERY. OWNED.

Philbo
Apr 21st, 2005, 05:57 AM
When it comes to singles (which, in my mind, matters more than doubles), Steffi Graf is the best player in the history of tennis. How could people argue against that? The only argument I have heard is the "Martina played longer! Therefore she is better!" argument. But that is complete bullshit, since Graf was able to win 4 more majors than Martina while having a considerably shorter career.

JenFan - Where have you gone?

Just wanted to ask why you think Graf is the # 1 of all time due to her tally of slams, but ignore Margaret Court?

If slam tally is your only criteria for judging, Steffi is, at best, # 2 of all time..

rada
Apr 21st, 2005, 06:27 AM
sorry to say but graf was better then nav ;)

SM
Apr 21st, 2005, 08:36 AM
czechfan, to most people slam tally is most important it seems. it seems as such from many reputable sources such as tennis magazines and commentators etc. I haveto personally agree that slams are most important.

Margaret Court would be #1 based on slams and steffi #2 but the level of competition steffi faced was much deeper and the statistics dont tell the whole story.

Ofcourse Martina's overall record when you look at the bigger picture and include much more stats than slams will never be bettered :worship: , so ofcourse its a legitimate argument that she can be viewed by some as the best ever. It just depends on how much emphasis you personally attach to slams vs overall records (slams and other)

SM
Apr 21st, 2005, 08:39 AM
but come on people, Jelena Dokic is better than both ;)

Sam L
Apr 21st, 2005, 09:01 AM
Remember though that Steffi rarely played doubles and almost never mixed.

stenen
Apr 21st, 2005, 09:19 AM
That said, IMHO, there is no answer and no end to the Graf/Navi question. :wavey:

I second to that.

random fan
Apr 21st, 2005, 09:30 AM
When Graf at 40 years old will win another slam in singles with her children cheering their mom from the tribunes, this debate will be over.

moby
Apr 21st, 2005, 11:16 AM
Just to let you all know, I agree with everything kabuki has said in this thread, especially the part dealing with Stats. :worship:

kabuki
Apr 21st, 2005, 12:23 PM
Bastard child of real mathematics? Is that one of your pseudo-intellectual babblings?

Or, could it be the case that you are completely ignorant of the fact that without probability theory or a statistical description of matter certain advances in science would not be possible?

You give some people enough rope and they always hang themselves.

Please. Real Mathematicians scoff at statisticians. Try and deny it.

Better yet, just let it go, snark-meister.

Calimero377
Apr 21st, 2005, 06:58 PM
JenFan - Where have you gone?

Just wanted to ask why you think Graf is the # 1 of all time due to her tally of slams, but ignore Margaret Court?

If slam tally is your only criteria for judging, Steffi is, at best, # 2 of all time..


Graf has 4 more Wimbledons and one more FO than Court.
Court has 7 AOs more than Graf, exactly those 7 AOs from 1960 until 1966 (amateur era, almost no top players went to Australian to compete).

Do you think Graf would swap 4 Wimby and one FO crown in professional era with Marge's 7 AO from the 60ies?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Next question ....

bandabou
Apr 21st, 2005, 07:19 PM
Thing is that Margaret was THE dominant player in the ' 60-ies...so it doesn't really matter who went or didn't go to Melbourne during those years.....it was a big deal when MAGARET was the one who didn't play...

Plus...why denigrade those titles? At the time players weren't earning nearly as much as they do now...so if they didn't feel it was worth to go and lose 1st round or stuff..there was no use to go.

Philbo
Apr 21st, 2005, 10:54 PM
Margaret Court would be #1 based on slams and steffi #2 but the level of competition steffi faced was much deeper and the statistics dont tell the whole story.


You hit the nail on the head there SM - statistics dont tell the whole story..

Statistics dont cover the fact that both Chris and Martina skipped the Ausse Open for a large chunk of their careers, and in Martina's case, also the French Open through the late 70's, early 80's...statistics dont cover the fact that Steffi's slam total is ABSOLUTELY inflated due to Monica's stabbing, statistics dont cover the fact that Martina might well have won more singles slams if she didnt do 3 times the workload during slams than Graf..

So you have a choice..

Either you take the numbers as they are and use them as your criteria... OR

You take a look behind the numbers and look at WHY their tallies are what they are..

When you talk about Court winning hers at the Aussie Open, weak competition etc etc you are delving into WHY Court has 24 slams..

So when you do the same for Steffi/Martina etc.. The fact that Martina skipped 2 slams a year through 3 or 4 years where she had a realistic chance of victory, plus the stabbing which took Monica out all had an effect on why Graf has 22 slams..

So which is it - the solid numbers themself, or WHY the numbers are what they are??????

Philbo
Apr 21st, 2005, 10:58 PM
Graf has 4 more Wimbledons and one more FO than Court.
Court has 7 AOs more than Graf, exactly those 7 AOs from 1960 until 1966 (amateur era, almost no top players went to Australian to compete).

Do you think Graf would swap 4 Wimby and one FO crown in professional era with Marge's 7 AO from the 60ies?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Next question ....

Whether she would swap thos titles for Graf's titles is irrelevant.

If you want slam tally as your criteria, you look at the slam tally ignoring why..

When you start talking about the level of competition Court had to face etc, you are delving into WHY she has 24 slams..

So when we look at WHY Graf has 22 slams, you automatically need to consider the stabbing.. It inflated her total in exactly the same way Court winning 9 Aussie Opens inflated hers..

So either you go with the hard numbers, or you analyse those numbers.. When analysis comes into it, the fact that Martian and Chis didnt play all the slams through all their winnable years, as well as the stabbing come into the equation.

Calimero377
Apr 21st, 2005, 10:59 PM
You hit the nail on the head there SM - statistics dont tell the whole story..

Statistics dont cover the fact that both Chris and Martina skipped the Ausse Open for a large chunk of their careers, and in Martina's case, also the French Open through the late 70's, early 80's...statistics dont cover the fact that Steffi's slam total is ABSOLUTELY inflated due to Monica's stabbing, statistics dont cover the fact that Martina might well have won more singles slams if she didnt do 3 times the workload during slams than Graf..

So you have a choice..

Either you take the numbers as they are and use them as your criteria... OR

You take a look behind the numbers and look at WHY their tallies are what they are..

When you talk about Court winning hers at the Aussie Open, weak competition etc etc you are delving into WHY Court has 24 slams..

So when you do the same for Steffi/Martina etc.. The fact that Martina skipped 2 slams a year through 3 or 4 years where she had a realistic chance of victory, plus the stabbing which took Monica out all had an effect on why Graf has 22 slams..

So which is it - the solid numbers themself, or WHY the numbers are what they are??????


OK, Graf & Court, that is a close race for the greatest-ever.
As is Evert, Navi, King for all-time great #3.

Calimero377
Apr 21st, 2005, 11:05 PM
Whether she would swap thos titles for Graf's titles is irrelevant.

If you want slam tally as your criteria, you look at the slam tally ignoring why..

When you start talking about the level of competition Court had to face etc, you are delving into WHY she has 24 slams..

So when we look at WHY Graf has 22 slams, you automatically need to consider the stabbing.. It inflated her total in exactly the same way Court winning 9 Aussie Opens inflated hers..

So either you go with the hard numbers, or you analyse those numbers.. When analysis comes into it, the fact that Martian and Chis didnt play all the slams through all their winnable years, as well as the stabbing come into the equation.


Graf didn't play
- AO 87, 92, 95, 96, 98
- FO 98
- Wim 97
- USO 97

She missed 8 slams during her winnable years.

And we must not forget that playing ALL slams in the 70ies and 80ies would have shortened Evertilova's career considerably.

And that Graf won 22 of 54 slams (41 %), Evert 18 of 56 (32 %) and Navi only 18 of 67 (27 %).

Philbo
Apr 22nd, 2005, 12:16 AM
Graf didn't play
- AO 87, 92, 95, 96, 98
- FO 98
- Wim 97
- USO 97

She missed 8 slams during her winnable years.

And we must not forget that playing ALL slams in the 70ies and 80ies would have shortened Evertilova's career considerably.

And that Graf won 22 of 54 slams (41 %), Evert 18 of 56 (32 %) and Navi only 18 of 67 (27 %).

You just have no idea do you Calimero? Why would playing all the slams in the late 70's and early 80's have shortened Martina's or Chris's career? They played World Team Tennis during that period because of the money on offer and the fact that the Aussie Open and French Open really werent anything like the world class events they were to become..

Graf missed those slams through injury Calimero. Injury is a natural part of the game. If Graf wasnt able to prepare and take care of her body as well as she needed to, thats her bad luck - just like Monica's injuries post stabbing...But I will say that Graf would probably have more slams if she wasnt injured so much..

So as you should be able to see, just looking at the numbers is misleading and too premature to draw conclusions from..

% of slams is just a bullshit stat. If Steffi had played until she was nearly 40 her % would be wayyyyyy below what it is..If Martina retired at age 30 her % would be way higher..next question?

Philbo
Apr 22nd, 2005, 12:17 AM
OK, Graf & Court, that is a close race for the greatest-ever.
As is Evert, Navi, King for all-time great #3.

Not close at all if you just go by the numbers. Going by the numbers, Court is clearly # 1, Graf clearly # 2. No close race at all.

Calimero377
Apr 26th, 2005, 07:59 PM
You just have no idea do you Calimero? Why would playing all the slams in the late 70's and early 80's have shortened Martina's or Chris's career? They played World Team Tennis during that period because of the money on offer and the fact that the Aussie Open and French Open really werent anything like the world class events they were to become..

Graf missed those slams through injury Calimero. Injury is a natural part of the game. If Graf wasnt able to prepare and take care of her body as well as she needed to, thats her bad luck - just like Monica's injuries post stabbing...But I will say that Graf would probably have more slams if she wasnt injured so much..

So as you should be able to see, just looking at the numbers is misleading and too premature to draw conclusions from..

% of slams is just a bullshit stat. If Steffi had played until she was nearly 40 her % would be wayyyyyy below what it is..If Martina retired at age 30 her % would be way higher..next question?


If Steffi played until age 38 she would be at about 27 slams by now.
You would not have liked that either ....
:lol:

Pengwin
Apr 26th, 2005, 08:01 PM
OK, Graf & Court, that is a close race for the greatest-ever.
As is Evert, Navi, King for all-time great #3.


I thought Martina was #2 and Enna #3? :confused:

Calimero377
Apr 26th, 2005, 08:15 PM
I thought Martina was #2 and Enna #3? :confused:


You are confusing "greatest" and "best-at-peak" again, sonny ....

daffodil
Apr 26th, 2005, 08:30 PM
If you don't believe that Nav has a case, given all of her stats, when why should anybody bother trying to convince you? Not only is your mind made up, but you've made it clear that you can only see one side of things.

I agree. I think that if you want to make an argument, you should go to the countless threads that have already been posted.

Philbo
Apr 26th, 2005, 10:55 PM
If Steffi played until age 38 she would be at about 27 slams by now.
You would not have liked that either ....
:lol:

What bullshit.

Her brittle body, in particular her knees would have collapsed after another 6 months. She could barely play on tour in her late 20's with her brittle body, let alone towards 40.. Keep dreamin grafanatic. All Steffi could do past 30 is lay on her back.

bandabou
Apr 27th, 2005, 12:06 AM
You are confusing "greatest" and "best-at-peak" again, sonny ....

Any stats to back up this claim?

FrauleinSteffi
Apr 29th, 2008, 01:43 AM
Steffi & now Serena hold the record for most Lipton/Sony Ericsson titles(5) for women and that is impled hello!...Andre Steffi's hubbie has the overall record (6 titles) but they kept it in the family! :)