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V.Melb
Apr 12th, 2005, 11:22 AM
The right to leave Australia................ A little too close toThe truth on some things.After hearing that the state of South Australia changed its opinionand let a Muslim woman have her picture on her driver's license withher face covered prompted this editorial written by an Australiancitizen, published in an Australian newspaper.He did quite a job; didn't he? Read on, please! You decide if youagree Quote: "IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT". I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians.However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled whenthe "politically correct" crowd began complaining about thepossibility that our patriotism was offending others. I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to Australia.However, there are a few things that those who have recently come toour country, and apparently some born here, need to understand.This idea of Australia being a multicultural community has servedOnly to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Australians, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed over 2 centuries of struggles,Trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom. We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, American or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the language! "In God We Trust" is our National Motto. This is not some Christian,right wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and thisis clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of ourschools.If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of theworld as your new home, because God is part of our culture.If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don't like (A Fair Go), then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from.This is OUR COUNTRY, Our Land, and Our Lifestyle, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about ourFlag, Our Pledge, Our National Motto, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, "THE RIGHT TO LEAVE".
........There you go. I think its a little extreme, but some ethnic minorities are very aggressive with their culture.... people don't like this. This article is written after a problem with muslims being overtly insistent that they show the world their muslim values.

your opinion?

Sam L
Apr 12th, 2005, 11:25 AM
I think Muslims should adapt. If you're leaving your country and living in another's, you should make an attempt to assimilate rather than just flaunting your own culture.

fifiricci
Apr 12th, 2005, 12:12 PM
What a narrow minded tosser that person is!! No wonder Kimmy dumped the potato, if that's representative of living in Southern Australia!!

cheesestix
Apr 12th, 2005, 12:29 PM
I agree with a lot of it!

But mostly, I think the idea of letting someone have their face covered on a photo ID is INCREDIBLY STUPID! What's the point? It is no longer an "identification" at that point. :rolleyes:

~ The Leopard ~
Apr 12th, 2005, 12:30 PM
Sounds a bit over the top to me, and I'd have to leave Australia according to this writer, since a lot of my beliefs are apparently unAustralian. If you don't believe in the Christian God, this person thinks you are unwelcome in his country. Guess it's just as well I'm always welcome back on the Serengeti, but they don't run a major tennis tournament there. ;)

It's also just as well that most Australians are not like this at all. Most Aussies have very secular and tolerant attitudes even if they are nominally religious - though maybe it's a li'l different in Adelaide, the City of Churches.

All that said, I do wonder what the point is of having someone's face veiled on a driver's licence pic meant for identification purposes. Allowing that seems to be going to the other extreme. I think that religious fundamentalists, or highly traditional people, of whatever stripe have got to make some attempt to meet legitimate concerns of law and order.

cheesestix
Apr 12th, 2005, 12:40 PM
Sounds a bit over the top to me, and I'd have to leave Australia according to this writer, since a lot of my beliefs are apparently unAustralian. If you don't believe in the Christian God, this person thinks you are unwelcome in his country.

That's NOT what he said. He said:

"In God We Trust" is our National Motto. This is not some Christian,right wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto becauseChristianmen and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, andthisis clearly documented.It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of ourschools.If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of theworld as your new home, because God is part of our culture."

He's not saying that you have to believe in or worship a Christian God. Where does he say that????

He's just saying that he doesn't want someone from another country or religion coming in an keeping him from doing it.

If you're a Christian and you move to a Muslim country, do you have the right to tell them to not wear veils because it offends you? Do you have the right to tell them not to carry a Koran because it offends you? No! and No! IMO, it's the same thing.

fifiricci
Apr 12th, 2005, 12:48 PM
If you're a Christian and you move to a Muslim country, do you have the right to tell them to not wear veils because it offends you? Do you have the right to tell them not to carry a Koran because it offends you? No! and No! IMO, it's the same thing.

Yeah right, so by the same token when the colony was set up 200 years ago, all the white settlers adopted Aborigine beliefs and customs! Dont make me laugh!!

V.Melb
Apr 12th, 2005, 12:53 PM
well. go try build a church in Saudi arabia..... they will kill you. their law forbids it.

Build a Mosque in Australia.... of course. If our government says no... the muslims will outrage! :rolleyes:

bionic71
Apr 12th, 2005, 01:08 PM
Hideous piece of writing...thinly veiled hate mongoring ...it actually reads like it was written by a 7 year old, or as an attempt at a piss take..it is reminiscent of talk back radio provocation to get a few people calling in.

Our nation founded on "Christian principles"....now thats not exactly something to be proud of when you consider exactly what that founding entailed?

Can you tell me where this "article" appeared? What publication?

As a school teacher in an inner city high school here in Sydney, with a diverse ethnic population, I can assure you such sentiment is not tolerated.

fifiricci
Apr 12th, 2005, 01:09 PM
well. go try build a church in Saudi arabia..... they will kill you. their law forbids it.

Build a Mosque in Australia.... of course. If our government says no... the muslims will outrage! :rolleyes:

That's the price we pay for living in a broadminded democratic system. Isn't that what we all wanted and what our ancestors fought so hard for? Isn't that why you dont want to live in Saudi Arabia?

V.Melb
Apr 12th, 2005, 01:14 PM
yes it is. i am commenting on the standards relevent in each society.
Western women are forced to cover themselves in many muslim countries or risk being attacked. they are far less tolerent then ourselves.

Anways... i don't know wich paper the article comes from.

bionic71
Apr 12th, 2005, 01:18 PM
Anways... i don't know wich paper the article comes from.

It would be nice if you could cite the source or web address of the article....I am interested in finding out where it originated....

Is there an author??

Such information is useful in determining the sentiment behind such "crap".


(Note to THE LEOPARD...Will you be booking the plane tickets or should I??)

fifiricci
Apr 12th, 2005, 01:34 PM
yes it is. i am commenting on the standards relevent in each society.
Western women are forced to cover themselves in many muslim countries or risk being attacked. they are far less tolerent then ourselves.

Anways... i don't know wich paper the article comes from.

Western women (and men for that matter) are also expected to cover up when they enter catholic churches. I wasn't brought up in the Catholic faith, but I was brought up to respect other people and their sensitivities, so that I have absolutely no problem respecting the wishes of the catholic church when I visit one of their establishments!!

I am sure you have some reasonable points to make on this complicated issue, but I think you are making the mistake of trying to do so on the back of an infantinely nationalistic and xenophobic newspaper article that I wouldnt even deign to eat my chips out of!

~ The Leopard ~
Apr 12th, 2005, 01:35 PM
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Hagar
Apr 12th, 2005, 01:35 PM
Well, I think the writer has a point in the sense that the fact that when Muslims immigrate to a Western country, they should adapt some Western values.
If you want to wear the veil outside public places and at home, fine, but it is indeed not acceptable that women are shown with a veil on ID-cards and driver's licence.

I personally think that everywhere in the Western world, we are really heading for trouble if we do not make it clear to Muslims that if they want to stay in our countries, they have to adapt to our culture to some extent. If they don't want to, fine, but then they should not come here.
Western culture: I think about language, about gender equality, choice to marry who you want to marry, secular state, etc...
I hear so much talk about Muslims having to be able to preserve their identity. But what exactly is that identity? And is that identity of any use to the Western culture if some basic human rights are not accepted by Muslims?
I've got huge problems with the veil. You can't forbid women to wear it because of the same human rights I want to see preserved. Yet, I cannot see a religion that wants women to wear a veil as not retarded.

V.Melb
Apr 12th, 2005, 01:36 PM
when i find out. i will post it here.
I would love to be an inner city school teacher! :D

Hagar
Apr 12th, 2005, 01:40 PM
Western women (and men for that matter) are also expected to cover up when they enter catholic churches.

That's not true, Fi. Maybe it used to be like that in the past but women can enter a Catholic church without wearing something on their head.
In any case, I am a Catholic and I simply refuse to wear something on my head, unless it's so cold that my ears are freezing off! I mean, if men don't have to do it, I don't have to do it!

In any case, the scarf a woman had to wear in Church is not comparable with the way Muslim women bandage their head and face.

~ The Leopard ~
Apr 12th, 2005, 01:41 PM
The editorial writer or whatever did say that something like: "If God offends you then go somewhere else." This was in the context of official use in schools etc of a motto about God, clearly referring to the Christian God. Well, as an atheist, I am offended by that kind of use of the idea of God. So I'd better leave, right? What's the problem, cheesestix? The society this guy is describing is quite plainly (to me) one that is very unlike the one I actually live in, and one where my religious and moral views would not be welcome.

Note though what the official Australian government site say in the bit that I bolded: there is no official Australian motto.

bionic71
Apr 12th, 2005, 01:45 PM
I missed the beginning where it says it was an editorial piece written by a "citizen"...mmmm
I am still interested in finding out which publication it appeared in though.

kabuki
Apr 12th, 2005, 01:50 PM
The initial post reeks of fear. Fear of the different, fear of the unknown. Yes, that woman should have been photographed properly, but the ensuing tirade is basically dominant culture garbage IMHO. Speaking as an American, in a country with tremendous immigration, and more of a salad bowl than a melting pot, the author's fears are unwarranted. People are people, even if they don't look, act, or worship like you. Some of my most fulfilling friendships and interactions have involved "crossing cultural lines" and finding not differences, but similarities. Get out and interact, for God's sake. If that answer doesn't work for you, here in the States, within one generation, the kids of immigrants are integrated and Americanized. If you don't like the cultural distinctness of the new immigrants, (which is due to unwillingness or inability?) trust me, you'll like their kids much better. And, for that matter, the whole "we were here first" argument is pathetic. If that was the way things should work, then "Australians" should have adapted to the Aboriginal culture, not the other way around.

Cassius
Apr 12th, 2005, 02:02 PM
I agree with some of the views expressed in the article.
Immigrants should not come here (Britain) and then complain about it. If you don't like it here, go somewhere else.

There was a case last year which really pissed me off.
It was St. George's Day, and people were waving the St. George Cross that is the English flag.
A taxi driver in Liverpool (where I live), was suspended for 1 month for having an English flag in his cab because it offended 2 Chinese businessmen.
It offended them because St. George slayed a dragon, which the Chinese revear.
It made me so angry that an Englishman could be suspended from his job for being proud of his own country's flag.
If the Chinese don't like our flag (the very symbol of our nation), then go home, China's plenty big enough.

Epigone
Apr 12th, 2005, 02:04 PM
Australian Government Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade...Damn, you beat me to it :p

It looks like this letter was lifted from this (http://pwa.dns4me.com/pwa/usaus/home2002.htm) website.

Look at these passages:
We speak English, not Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society - learn our language!"
We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, American or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the language!Adjusted to suit Australian conditions :rolleyes:, but :lol: at them dissing Americans after stealing the document from them :D
In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some off-the-wall, Christian, Right Wing, political slogan - it is our national motto. It is engraved in stone in the House of Representatives in our Capitol and it is printed on our currency. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation and this is clearly documented throughout our history. If it is appropriate for our motto to be inscribed in the halls of our highest level of Government, then it is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools.
"In God We Trust" is our National Motto. This is not some Christian,right wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto becauseChristianmen and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, andthisis clearly documented.It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of ourschoolsOther sections were lifted as well, but I can't be bothered wasting my time on it any longer.

The original was "sent by a 78 yr old former nun" in the US, and this Aussie one was just a tweaked version to make it "relevant" to Australia

bionic71
Apr 12th, 2005, 02:08 PM
Damn, you beat me to it :p

It looks like this letter was lifted from this (http://pwa.dns4me.com/pwa/usaus/home2002.htm) website.

Look at these passages:

[color=black]Adjusted to suit Australian conditions :rolleyes:, but :lol: at them dissing Americans after stealing the document from them :D

Other sections were lifted as well, but I can't be bothered wasting my time it any longer.

The original was "sent by a 78 yr old former nun" in the US, and this Aussie one was just a tweaked version to make it "relevant" to Australia


As I suspected...
I have seen a number of these so called "opinion pieces from concerned citizens" popping up recently.
Thanks for the detective work!

Bezz
Apr 12th, 2005, 02:08 PM
I agree the article is a little direct and harsh, but i think the main points are valid. Many immigrants come to the west becuase it offers freedom of many things, yet when they get here they try turn it into a little part of the country they came from, they dont try and adapt to life in that country, it seems the want the economic and educational benefits of a western society without the cultural ones.

I often wondered why immigrants still come to the west, they must know before they get here the values and traditons are different, and if they cant cope with that, then stay where they are.

There is nothing wrong with other peoples cultures and values but it seems the west is the only place where we have to accomodate everyone, sometimes at the expense of ourselves. I remember during the world cup a few years ago local buses and taxi's were not allowed to display the English flag in case it offended someone :rolleyes: . Yet when divali happend a few months ago, the whole of the city was goin off with fireworks.

Hagar
Apr 12th, 2005, 02:24 PM
I agree the article is a little direct and harsh, but i think the main points are valid. Many immigrants come to the west becuase it offers freedom of many things, yet when they get here they try turn it into a little part of the country they came from, they dont try and adapt to life in that country, it seems the want the economic and educational benefits of a western society without the cultural ones.

I often wondered why immigrants still come to the west, they must know before they get here the values and traditons are different, and if they cant cope with that, then stay where they are.

There is nothing wrong with other peoples cultures and values but it seems the west is the only place where we have to accomodate everyone, sometimes at the expense of ourselves. I remember during the world cup a few years ago local buses and taxi's were not allowed to display the English flag in case it offended someone :rolleyes: . Yet when divali happend a few months ago, the whole of the city was goin off with fireworks.

I agree. Everyone is welcome in my country but not if they undermine the values people have battled for.
Women can only vote in Belgium since 1948, that's pretty recent. Women's rights are way too fragile everywhere in the world, that's why I prefer not to see any of these bloody headscarfs!!!
Only solution for me is serious scrutinizing of who comes here. If they haven't adapted to the Belgian and European culture to some extent... OUT they go! We can't function as a society if some people deliberately refuse to adapt to the norms and language that rule in our countries. And by that I absolutely not mean that people can't have their own religion, language and food but they have to learn our language and be willing to subscribe to our values.

Benny
Apr 12th, 2005, 02:38 PM
"In God We Trust" is our National Motto. Is that a joke? It has to be - there is no way in the world that is Australia's national motto - and there is no way in the world someone could believe it is... I think the person seriously needs to check if they themselves are Australian.

This is not some Christian,right wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of ourschools.

This is a croc of sh*t honestly. They have to be talking about America right?

adss
Apr 12th, 2005, 02:40 PM
"I believe in diversity not assimilation" - Joe Canada

Cassius
Apr 12th, 2005, 02:44 PM
They have to be talking about America right?
Yes, the article was written about America, but some bits were added/taken away for an Oz audience, but who ever was checking it didn't do their job thoroughly enough.

~ The Leopard ~
Apr 12th, 2005, 02:53 PM
All starting to make sense now. Thank you to the detectives on the thread. :D

Bezz
Apr 12th, 2005, 02:58 PM
"I believe in diversity not assimilation" - Joe Canada

The world is a very diverse place anyway. Thats why people travel, to experience new and differen't cultures. If the whole world became multi-cultural yu wudnt ever have to leave your city and there wudn't be "cultures"; just one big one. That would make for a boring and plain world. :cool:

Lord Nelson
Apr 12th, 2005, 03:47 PM
Immigrants need to adapt to the country they live in. There is nothing racist in this. In France, Muslim female students are not allowed to wear the veil in public schools. I support this. In many Arab nations, Christian women are pressured to wear the veils.

Infiniti2001
Apr 12th, 2005, 04:04 PM
Immigrants need to adapt to the country they live in. There is nothing racist in this. In France, Muslim female students are not allowed to wear the veil in public schools. I support this. In many Arab nations, Christian women are pressured to wear the veils.

Couldn't agree more. Even the women in the American military protecting Saudi Arabia are forced to adapt to their customs when they're not in uniform. I'm all for diversity, but some muslims grate on my last nerve with their demands. They're the most difficult immigrants to please :tape:

fifiricci
Apr 12th, 2005, 07:06 PM
Immigrants need to adapt to the country they live in. There is nothing racist in this. In France, Muslim female students are not allowed to wear the veil in public schools. I support this. In many Arab nations, Christian women are pressured to wear the veils.

Fine, you've got your opinion and I've got mine, thats what this forum is all about, discussion and expressing views. But there's no need to bad rep me just because I don't agree with you! I won't sink so low as to bad rep you back, you big baby! :baby:

Hulet
Apr 12th, 2005, 09:04 PM
Seriously, someone list the top 10 things immigrants have to DO before they are considered "assimilated" (Such an ugly word - It's beyond me how it's considered as a virtue). From this thread, I have got some: not wearing head scarf (but what other clothing items are out of question?), draping your window with the flag of the host country, forgetting your language, what else? Are you allowed to grow a beard? Do you have to celebrate christmas and have to exchange expensive gifts - how many dollars in the minimum are you mandated to spend for gifts? Do you have to consider JLo a music goddess? How many hours of TV are you supposed to watch? Which realityTV shows should you watch to be considered "assimilated"? When should you lose your virginity? Is religious conversion necessary for "assimilation"? Which party should you vote for? Or shouldn't you align yourself with the majority and not vote claiming "voter apathy"? What type of individuals are you supposed to think of as sexy and which ones appropriate for marriage? Should you be promiscuious? What should your relationship with your parents and sibilings be? An angry one with no respect for each other? Is extended family out of the question? What type of names are you allowed to give to your children? Should you change your own name? What type of food should you eat? Should you cook or should you visit the nearest fast food joint or order pizza in? Where should your weight catagory lie? Do you have to be a bit overweight or obese? What colour should you paint your hair? Is curly hair not allowed? Must the women get a breast implant? How should your spend your money? Are you allowed to help out your relatives back home or do you have to spend it on the latest electronics gizmos? How deeply in debt do you have to be before considered truely "assimilated"?

Who will decide all these things you have to do to be assimilated?

The more I think about it the better this "assimilation" sounds like. Someone else will decide for you everything you have to do, wear, see, hear, speak ahead of time. That's half of the worries of life out of the way then. Just like a programmable working robot, which is, of course, what many people want immigrants to be.

Andy Mac
Apr 12th, 2005, 09:36 PM
:confused:

SelesFan70
Apr 12th, 2005, 09:55 PM
I say take the Koran and the Bible and burn all of them :banana: and let people start thinking for themselves. :eek:

PointBlank
Apr 13th, 2005, 01:15 AM
Muslims adapt? :rolls:..It is nothing to do with the country they came from its there religon..you not gonna tell a man he cant wear a cross necklace in his picture in Israel because we are a majority Jewish country..

JustineTime
Apr 13th, 2005, 01:49 AM
DANG! :(

I was gonna repost it with "Australia" CROSSed :hehehe: out and America in its place! :p

:fiery:

JustineTime
Apr 13th, 2005, 01:59 AM
I say take the Koran and the Bible and burn all of them :banana: and let people start thinking for themselves. :eek:

...because it naturally goes without saying that you can't read the Bible AND think for yourself as well, n'est-ce pas? :hehehe:

:rolleyes:

Translation: if you read the Bible, you obviously lack the intellectual capacity to think independently, hence you require someone else (read cult leader/manipulator/Catholic priest between child molestings) to tell you what it REALLY means.

That about sum it up? :yeah:

DutchieGirl
Apr 13th, 2005, 02:17 AM
Sounds a bit over the top to me, and I'd have to leave Australia according to this writer, since a lot of my beliefs are apparently unAustralian. If you don't believe in the Christian God, this person thinks you are unwelcome in his country. Guess it's just as well I'm always welcome back on the Serengeti, but they don't run a major tennis tournament there. ;)

It's also just as well that most Australians are not like this at all. Most Aussies have very secular and tolerant attitudes even if they are nominally religious - though maybe it's a li'l different in Adelaide, the City of Churches.

All that said, I do wonder what the point is of having someone's face veiled on a driver's licence pic meant for identification purposes. Allowing that seems to be going to the other extreme. I think that religious fundamentalists, or highly traditional people, of whatever stripe have got to make some attempt to meet legitimate concerns of law and order.

:haha: I'd also have to leave Australia coz in God I don't trust, but then I wanna leave here anyway, so that's OK! ;) But on that note, if I went to live in another country, I would adapt to how they live, learn their language (if it wasn't english), and try to fit in with their culture. I think that's only fair! :D

ceiling_fan
Apr 13th, 2005, 02:38 AM
Umm since when is American a language? :confused: lol

alexusjonesfan
Apr 13th, 2005, 02:42 AM
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Hulet again. :(

btw, you wouldn't happen to ever go to a starbucks on Yonge and Wellesley would you? I saw someone there once and I had a feeling it was you :p

Hulet
Apr 13th, 2005, 03:03 AM
Thanks for the rep. In theory, atleast. :)

Nope, never went into that Starbucks at all (Don't like coffee or other caffinated stuff, which makes me wonder, how much of this stuff should I assimilate to be "assimilated"?). Even though, I walk past it often. Now, tell me, what make you think that person was me? :) :curious:

alexusjonesfan
Apr 13th, 2005, 03:13 AM
well...he (*you*) was talking on his cell about going back to Ethiopia in the summer (or that's all I caught :p). He was student age and had some presumably uni work he was working on and he kept looking at me, so I thought he recognized me or something...but it was probably because I thought I was listening in on his conversation :lol:

Circe
Apr 13th, 2005, 03:30 AM
Sounds a bit over the top to me, and I'd have to leave Australia according to this writer, since a lot of my beliefs are apparently unAustralian. If you don't believe in the Christian God, this person thinks you are unwelcome in his country. Guess it's just as well I'm always welcome back on the Serengeti, but they don't run a major tennis tournament there. ;)



or you could take me up on my long-standing invitation and come to my little part of the world. :kiss: we dont have a major tennis tournament here either though :(

Hulet
Apr 13th, 2005, 03:36 AM
well...he (*you*) was talking on his cell about going back to Ethiopia in the summer (or that's all I caught :p). He was student age and had some presumably uni work he was working on and he kept looking at me, so I thought he recognized me or something...but it was probably because I thought I was listening in on his conversation :lol:
hehe, You should have asked him whether he posts at WTAworld.