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Warrior
Apr 11th, 2005, 03:16 PM
China's anti-Japan rallies spread

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41017000/jpg/_41017395_schenzhenap203b.jpg Anti-Japanese protests have been building throughout the week

Anti-Japanese protests have erupted in China for the second day running, spreading from Beijing to the southern province of Guangdong.

The rallies follow a 10,000-strong march in the Chinese capital - the city's biggest protest since 1999.

Protesters are angry at a new Japanese history textbook which they believe plays down Japan's wartime atrocities.

Japan has protested to China after stone-throwing protesters attacked Japan's embassy in Beijing on Saturday.

Japan's foreign minister is to visit China next week to discuss "a number of bilateral and international issues", a spokesman for Japan's Foreign Ministry said.

Security measures

At least 3,000 people demonstrated at the Japanese consulate in the southern city of Guangzhou on Sunday, shouting for a boycott of Japanese goods and burning Japanese flags.

A Japanese diplomat said some windows in the consulate were broken.

Hong Kong cable television showed protesters with Chinese flags and banners reading "down with Japanese militarism".

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifhttp://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41017000/jpg/_41017419_flaggetty203b.jpg
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/inline_dashed_line.gif

In pictures: Anti-Japan rallies (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/4429621.stm)
The rape of Nanjing (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/223038.stm)



A city hall spokesman said the "spontaneous demonstration" was peaceful and under control.

China says it has mobilised a huge police force to maintain order.

Thousands more marched in Shenzhen, also in the southern Guangdong province, and threw objects at Japanese-owned businesses.

On Saturday, Japan summoned the Chinese ambassador to demand a formal apology, after windows at its embassy in Beijing were broken during a demonstration, despite the presence of Chinese police.

The ambassador, Wang Yi, said Beijing did not condone the protests.

However, correspondents say the fact that Saturday's demonstration took place at all signals tacit acceptance, if not approval, by the authorities.

'Whitewash'

The protests were sparked by new Japanese schoolbooks, which many Chinese say whitewash Japan's occupation of much of China during the 1930s and early 1940s.

Critics are angered that one of the books refers to the killing of more than 250,000 civilians by Japanese troops in the Chinese city of Nanjing in 1937 as an "incident", rather than the "massacre" it is known as elsewhere.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41016000/jpg/_41016941_police_ap_203.jpg China says it mobilised police to protect Japanese buildings



They also say it glosses over mass sex slavery of Asian women by Japanese troops.

Anti-Japanese sentiment has also been fuelled by Japan's campaign for a permanent seat on the UN Security Council.

Many Chinese feel Japan has not yet addressed its wartime history, and as such is not fit to take up such a position of responsibility, says the BBC's Rupert Wingfield-Hayes in Beijing. Tokyo says private companies, not the government, were responsible for the texts, and that it is up to individual school districts to decide which books they use. The book, approved by a local education authority, is one of many and has been taken up by a tiny proportion of schools in Japan, our correspondent says.

Veritas
Apr 11th, 2005, 03:42 PM
I think part of the reason why protests have gotten violent was because the CCP initiated a "patriotic education" scheme in the late 80s and 90s - a majort part of that scheme was to stir up anti-Japanese sentiments to both effect better control on the public and divert attention away from domestic problems.

I, for one, do not think that these "demonstrations" will do anyone any good. Look at how many times these nationalists have been burning up the Hinomaru in front of Japanese consulate buildings - has it achieved anything progressive besides gaining media attention and showing how violent these extremists can be? If anything, those media images will make many people think that Chinese and South Koreans are little more than violent xenophobes, which is completely unfair to those open-minded people who want to build good relations in Japan and don't take part in these demonstrations.

But these protesters do have a point: Japan has yet to offer an official apology. Plus much of the monetary compensations its made to its neighbours have been directed toward government spending (in China and South Korea) on rebuilding the domestic economy and infrastructure. Many of the victims of war crimes were left out because the money wasn't meant to be directed to them - it was for the nation(s) as a whole. They do have a right to demand for Japan to follow Germany's lead and do more to demonstrate remorse.

What they do not have a right to do is to make racist, blanket statements about Japanese people in general. It is outrageous how they unfairly label Japan as "little Japan" (a derogatory term used in China for centuries). If they want to vent their anger on specific rightist figures, such as Shintaro Ishihara, for making provocative statements, then they should direct it at them only. Pick out the individuals rather than generalise on the population as a whole. Can anybody honestly claim that they've met every one of the 127 million Japanese people on this planet?

It's also ridiculous to vilify the younger Japanese population as well. Many of them were born after the conclusion of WWII, and thus, are in no way directly responsible for the damages inflicted back then. Why should they be made to suffer racist attacks?

Take a recent incident for one: two Japanese students in Shanghai were brutally bashed by rampaging Chinese students. I mean, what on earth were those Chinese students thinking? Why injure innocent bystanders just to prove a point?

And let's not forget that rather violent Asia Cup incident last year, where soccer fans in China constantly booed, shouted and chanted racist, anti-Japan slogans. Rather stupid gestures if you ask me - a majority of those Japanese soccer players were in their 20s, so unless the Japanese army had a way of nurturing deadly fetuses to attack a nation of almost a billion, they had no part in inflicting damages on China.

IMO, the Japanese Education Ministry was extremely stupid and wrong to provoke China by approving those textbooks. And Koizumi really should've restrained from visiting the Yasukuni shrine. Plus an official apology from Japan is long overdue.

However, China has no right to fan the flames. Their politicians continually blame Japan for insitgating anti-Japan protests yet they themselves have done nothing more than give the usual round of excuses "there's nothing more we can do [to prevent violent demonstrations] except give weak assurances for our people to remain calm". It's their responsibility to control their citizens' behaviour.

Veritas
Apr 11th, 2005, 04:09 PM
China's anti-Japan rallies spread
A city hall spokesman said the "spontaneous demonstration" was peaceful and under control.

He/she has got to be kidding. If stone throwing, vandalism, publicly incinerating flags and chanting anti-Japanese slogans is considered "peaceful", then I wonder what the CCP considers "violent" :tape:

Besides, it was one of the biggest and most "active" demonstrations since the own thrown in America's 'honour' when the Chinese embassy in Yugoslavia was bombed a few years ago.

The ambassador, Wang Yi, said Beijing did not condone the protests.

Of course not. Why would the CCP do that? They're aware of the reprucussions that such demonstrations can have on the country's social cohesion and stability as a whole, but the demonstrations aren't aimed at the domestic government - it's aimed at a foreign one. Plus, Japan is considered by China to be its main rival for dominance in Asia, so such demonstrations would be a blessing in disguise for the government.

Many Chinese feel Japan has not yet addressed its wartime history, and as such is not fit to take up such a position of responsibility, says the BBC's Rupert Wingfield-Hayes in Beijing.

Translation: Any attempts made by Tokyo to further its international prestige and standing will be immediately revoked by China, regardless of whether they feel past incidents have been properly "addressed".

I honestly think that even if Japan finally offers that long awaited apology and reparation, China will still oppose its entry into the UNSC. Why would China want to give up its status as the only Asian nation to have a presence in such a powerful and exclusive international body?

Don't get me wrong: Japan should still do what it should've done a long time ago and not drag this issue out any longer. It's worn dangerously thin.

But China should not give such an air of moral pretence when it knows very well that there's no chance in hell that they'll ever support any moves by Japan to increase her power.

Experimentee
Apr 11th, 2005, 05:17 PM
The protesters are wrong to carry on like this and should find more peaceful ways to get their point across, but Japan is to blame too. They should have already acknowledged their war crimes and not try to pretend it never happened. If they just did that it would put an end to all this rubbish, and I dont understand why its so hard for them.

Spunky83
Apr 11th, 2005, 05:43 PM
Ever since I was born, my parents (from Hong Kong) told me that Japanese were cruel cause they hide their past war-activities. Due to the fact that I was born in Germany, a country where you constantly get reminded at their past, I can definetly say that something is very wrong in the way Japan handles their portray of history and I am pretty mad about that.

The whole world knows which role Japan played during those times and it is pretty ironic that a lot of Japanese, of all people, donīt know that anymore due to their education.

Of course you canīt blame most of Japanīs population, as someone has already said, those were born after the incident, but people shouldnīt forget about their own countryīs past. A country is made up of history and it just pisses me off when they just change facts. Of course China also doesnīt have a clean record, but if Japan continues belittleing their deeds, China will continue protesting and someday Japanese donīt even know anymore why the Chinese protest...and so and so on...itīs like a doom loop: They fight each other without really knowing the reason anymore (like the beating someone mentioned before).

...and yes, I have japanese friends, I just hate the behaviour of the government

Spunky83
Apr 11th, 2005, 06:30 PM
Sad but true...and also thank you for showing that Germany really isnīt the country anymore at all which it was a few decades ago due to fact that Germany admits to its own failures. Itīs sad though that there are people who think that Germany is still full of Nazis :o and I am pretty glad that I never had to sing the national antheme anywhere (I bet 80% of all germans donīt even know the words to it...I know the first three lines).

However, this is not the main topic...

Lord Nelson
Apr 11th, 2005, 07:04 PM
Actually the Deutschland, Deutschland uber alles is pretty know amongst the German population. I don't see anything wrong with German national hymn. It's patriotic more than anything else. As for the anti Japanese violence it needs to cease.

Helas
Apr 11th, 2005, 07:35 PM
While I think these demonstrations were organised by the communist regime in China
I still think Japans record of acknowledging it's war crimes are pretty disgraceful for instance Japan has never paid compensation to the victims such as the British pows forced to build the Burma railroad as well as the millions of Asians who suffered under brutal Japanese occupation.

Spunky83
Apr 11th, 2005, 09:14 PM
Actually the Deutschland, Deutschland uber alles is pretty know amongst the German population. I don't see anything wrong with German national hymn. It's patriotic more than anything else. As for the anti Japanese violence it needs to cease.

:tape: ...I donīt know if you were joking but the song you are referring to was banned and is illegal!!! Itīs the old one! And I think you also donīt get the german culture. Patriotism is a "no-no" in Germany.

Our "new" hmyn is totally different!!!

Sam L
Apr 11th, 2005, 10:11 PM
The thing is Germany has changed; but Japan thinks it has changed.

Lord Nelson
Apr 12th, 2005, 12:04 AM
:tape: ...I donīt know if you were joking but the song you are referring to was banned and is illegal!!! Itīs the old one! And I think you also donīt get the german culture. Patriotism is a "no-no" in Germany.

Our "new" hmyn is totally different!!!
YOu have a new hymn, are you sure? I hear the deutschland one all the time at the Olympics. It was composed by a famous Austrian in the 19th or 18th Century. When Germany decided to make it their national hymn words were added. Look, patriotism exists everywhere including in Germany. Germans are like all of us & they have the right to be patriot. In fact the new generation of Germans are tired of feeling guilty for what the older generation did during WWII.
As for Hautebois, yes you are right. the Japanese should not modify their textbooks. But both of your nations should resolve this peacefully. It's good to see China & India (I'm part Indian) trying to improve relations & boost their trade.

Hulet
Apr 12th, 2005, 12:26 AM
Yup, I also hear the Deutschland at the World cup? So may be it's only the lyrics to the anthem that were changed/illegal.

As for Japan, apologize, compensate and get with grips with your past, or else don't be so surprised when these protests erupt.

Veritas
Apr 12th, 2005, 04:39 AM
The worst part is, that the Japanese soldiers that did this were not punished.

Some of them were. Tojo, the man behind most of Japan's war crimes, was hanged.

The problem is that a large number of Japanese soldiers were not punished to the extent that Nazi ones were.

Many Japanese refuse to acknowledge that it ever existed, and most don't think of it as a wrongdoing on Japan's part.

Please provide stats to show that "many" Japanese people don't "acknowledge" that those crimes ever happened.

I have many Japanese friends and each and every one of them admit that Japan was wrong in having killed 300,000 civilians in the Rape of Nanjing and that the government should issue a formal apology for it.

So far, the only ones who I've seen openly deny the past have come from right wingers within sections of the government and their affiliates.

Most Chinese people believe that Japan has not apologised for it's atrocities, and the fact that they did this in broad daylight, raping and murdering for their own pleasure and subsquently denying it, is something hard to forgive.

Japan has made apologies before.

The problem is that the apology hasn't been an official one - i.e. a formal declaration. Rather, the apologies given from past Japanese PMs have been personal rather than binding.

Plus, monetary compensation has been made. Why else would China have been Japan's no.1 destination for foreign aid since diplomatic relations were established in the early 70s?

But the problem here is that the money being given did not go directly into the pockets of those who had suffered directly. Rather, it went into restoring the economy and infrastructures.

And because an official apology has not been made, former victims find it nearly impossible to lodge a plausible legal case in Japanese courts to sue for compensation. Legally, a personal apology does not encompass the entire nation. An official apology does.

So please be more specific when you say that no "apologies" have been given:)

There are a number of Japanese (I stress the word Japanese) websites that suggest that it never happened, that it was 'a figment of the imagination'. This is especially odd, considering that there were thousands, millions, of witnesses, French, English, American, German etc., who saw what was going on. As well as this there is VIDEO FOOTAGE and many many photographs and documents of this 'incident'.

In nearly all cases, these websites you speak of are manufactured and built by extremists.

There are a number of Chinese-made websites which not only point out Japan's past crimes, but also use it as an opportunity to vent racist diatribes.

Would it be fair of me to take those Chinese websites as an example of "many" Chinese people being outright racists?

I think not ;)

Japanese War Criminals received full military pensions and benefits from Japanese government

Maybe you should watch the Japanese-made documentary, "Riben Guizi". From what I saw, many Japanese war criminals did not receive anything close to that "full military pensions and benefits" you mentioned.

But millions of their victims and families suffered, and continue to suffer in poverty, shame, chronic physical and mental pain, WMD Death Toll and WMD Injuries including Children continue to rise due to Japanese abandonded WMD weapons to this day .........

And yet this all justifies those violent demonstrations?

Veritas
Apr 12th, 2005, 04:48 AM
Ever since I was born, my parents (from Hong Kong) told me that Japanese were cruel cause they hide their past war-activities. Due to the fact that I was born in Germany, a country where you constantly get reminded at their past, I can definetly say that something is very wrong in the way Japan handles their portray of history and I am pretty mad about that.

The whole world knows which role Japan played during those times and it is pretty ironic that a lot of Japanese, of all people, donīt know that anymore due to their education.

Of course you canīt blame most of Japanīs population, as someone has already said, those were born after the incident, but people shouldnīt forget about their own countryīs past. A country is made up of history and it just pisses me off when they just change facts. Of course China also doesnīt have a clean record, but if Japan continues belittleing their deeds, China will continue protesting and someday Japanese donīt even know anymore why the Chinese protest...and so and so on...itīs like a doom loop: They fight each other without really knowing the reason anymore (like the beating someone mentioned before).

...and yes, I have japanese friends, I just hate the behaviour of the government

That is an outstanding post! :yeah:

Veritas
Apr 12th, 2005, 05:01 AM
This is how I see the current situation:

Japan is wrong for not having done what Germany did and do more to show remorse, compensate for past crimes and have its leaders offer declarations of regret and apologies.

Japan is also wrong for having its Education Ministry not do much at all to prevent textbooks, which distort historical facts, from being published and distributed to high schools. Not only is it a painful jab at those who had suffered under Japanese occupation, it's also extremely unfair on the younger Japanese population who are mostly left in the dark about their nation's past. Don't they have a right to at least know the truth?

And by not properly acknowledging its own past, the reprucussions for Japan can turn out to be quite serious. Relations with its neighbours are not as warm as they could be. Plus, it is very sad and tragic that it's the younger generation who mostly suffer from these setbacks when they have done absolutely nothing to inflict past damages and yet they seem to be the ones who are being punished for things they did not do.

Which leads me to point that the Chinese and others should not act as if the younger Japanese population deserve to cop the flak. Blame their forefathers; criticise the ones who were and are directly responsible for damaging relations - but keep the innocent out of this. The young Japanese are also being victimised as well - their government does not honour their right to know about their country's past.

So IMO, no matter how understandable in most cases these demonstrations are, it does not excuse the violence, the vandalism or the balant generalisations.

From the way I see it, China is not completely innocent from having fanned the flames in its relations with Japan.

Fingon
Apr 12th, 2005, 05:50 AM
the way I see it is that the Chinese Government is losing control, which is to expect in a country that big when they introduced a market economy.

They are clearly making huge mistakes that they will regret, Taiwan was a big example, Japan is another.

Many big corporations are rethinking their investments in China, it's not the market paradise that many thought, the country's infrastructure needs huge, and I mean huge investments, and no matter how attractive the "potential" market is, if it's not safe, the money will go somewhere else.

Japan is the largest foreign investor in China, and Japan today is very close to western nations, despite its past. If Japan has that kind of problems (considering they can understand the Chinese culture a lot better), what can the rest expect?

This added to the Taiwas fiasco and you find that the Chinese governemnt is making huge mistakes, and will pay the price.

My opinion is that the dual model, communism in politics, capitalism in the economy will not survive, it might take a while (China has an enormous inertia), but eventually the governement won't be able to stay in power, and I think it will be difficult to keep the country united, it's just too big, too difficult to control.

Wigglytuff
Apr 12th, 2005, 05:54 AM
:topic:
i would like to remind people (particularly Americans) that American textbooks worship rapist, murders, child molesting slave owners as heros. and routinely refer to masacrares of native and African peoples as "incidents". for example they call the mass relocation of native peoples from their lands as "a trail", and the "theft" of lands lived on and used by native peoples as "purchases".

so on this issue i am ill willing to take japan to task, as i am trying to take the us book publishers to task for the lies that they print.

Scotso
Apr 12th, 2005, 05:59 AM
Japan needs to address its past atrocities. Whether or not the people there now are responsible, they have inherited the legacy and should try to make amends.

China was especially hurt by Japan during World War II, so I think they have a legitimate beef.

Scotso
Apr 12th, 2005, 06:01 AM
Jigglypoof, "purchases" are the historic term. In many cases they did actually purchase the land.

Yes, many of the "founding fathers" owned slaves, but that does not make them rapists, murderers, or child molesters.

As for the "Trail of Tears," that term is in no way meant to tone down what happened. You'd have to be an idiot to think otherwise.

Most textbooks I've seen are pretty critical of people like Andrew Jackson. Exactly how many of the 14452039847109837410978209348135 textbooks on history have you read?

Justeenium
Apr 12th, 2005, 06:22 AM
:topic:
i would like to remind people (particularly Americans) that American textbooks worship rapist, murders, child molesting slave owners as heros. and routinely refer to masacrares of native and African peoples as "incidents". for example they call the mass relocation of native peoples from their lands as "a trail", and the "theft" of lands lived on and used by native peoples as "purchases".

so on this issue i am ill willing to take japan to task, as i am trying to take the us book publishers to task for the lies that they print.

well well well Jiggly and I agree. Its kinda hard to see how Andrew Jackson was such a "great" president. Ignoring Supreme Court rulings to send the Indians to their death, so much for checks and balances, all heil King Andrew.

Plus he was the first to start appointing incompetent friends to high cabinet positions, the spoils system. And let's not even go to the Second National Bank :tape:

Justeenium
Apr 12th, 2005, 06:22 AM
Most textbooks I've seen are pretty critical of people like Andrew Jackson. Exactly how many of the 14452039847109837410978209348135 textbooks on history have you read?

well you read different textbooks than I did.

Justeenium
Apr 12th, 2005, 06:23 AM
anyways back on topic, the Chinese have not exactly been saints themselves. Perhaps they should be protesting their own seat

Scotso
Apr 12th, 2005, 06:45 AM
They were a founding member, they fought for the allies. It's an outdated system. Instead of giving another country a permanent seat, we should get rid of permanent seats altogether.

Veritas
Apr 12th, 2005, 07:48 AM
They were a founding member, they fought for the allies. It's an outdated system. Instead of giving another country a permanent seat, we should get rid of permanent seats altogether.

Wasn't the Nationalist Party one of the "founding members"? I had read that the CCP only got that UNSC seat after Taiwan was ruled "unfit" to sit in such an exclusive body.

Beefy
Apr 12th, 2005, 07:56 AM
I think Japan should teach the younger generations what actually happened during WWII

Lord Nelson
Apr 12th, 2005, 12:57 PM
The problem is that the UN's Security Council is pretty inefficient. The best thing is to get rid of the permanent members veto power. But permanent members who are influential nations should still be allowed to retain certain powers.
I'm happy that Japan did not suffer territorial losses like Germany. The Soviets only managed to get Kuril islands of which only the southern island are disputed by Japan. Compare this to almost 1/3 area that Germany lost. I do feel for the Chinese but there has to be a time when bygones have to be bygones. Japan is no longer a menace. By the way I hear Mushimato of Australia talking about right wing extremists in Japan. How about left-wing extremists in China? Extremists are not necessarily right-wing.

On a side note: I came across this site through menstennisforums. Since I'm only interested in menstennis I post only on 'non-tennis threads'. There are many interesting topics here. I wish menstennisforums would post interesting political topics in the non-tennis section. But congrats to you guys for these topics.

Beefy
Apr 12th, 2005, 01:16 PM
The whole UN's fucked up if you ask me. They do jack shit about so many important things

Chunchun
Apr 12th, 2005, 01:50 PM
I love this thread :worship: :hearts:

Those Japanese just pissssssssssss me off when i heart the news some weeks ago. They are ridiculously arrogant. Pffffffffffffff :fiery:

just look at my sig plzz ;) :D

Veritas
Apr 12th, 2005, 01:56 PM
just look at my sig plzz ;) :D

Your signature ( 反日本 ) says "friend Japan" ... it doesn't make sense :confused:

Chunchun
Apr 12th, 2005, 02:54 PM
Your signature ( 反日本 ) says "friend Japan" ... it doesn't make sense :confused:

:confused: :shrug:

y the hell does ( 反日本 ) = "friend Japan"??? :shrug:

( 反日本 ) means anti-Japan / to overthrow Japan. ;)

Wigglytuff
Apr 12th, 2005, 02:56 PM
Jigglypoof, "purchases" are the historic term. In many cases they did actually purchase the land.

Yes, many of the "founding fathers" owned slaves, but that does not make them rapists, murderers, or child molesters.

As for the "Trail of Tears," that term is in no way meant to tone down what happened. You'd have to be an idiot to think otherwise.

Most textbooks I've seen are pretty critical of people like Andrew Jackson. Exactly how many of the 14452039847109837410978209348135 textbooks on history have you read?

are you for real?

ok, let me say that "purchases" as about as accurate as "discovery". its flat out wrong. for many many reasons. in some cases the Indians they "bought" the land from and the ones who lived on it were nations that were at war with one another, in other cases the native people they bought the land from and the ones who lived on it had never had any contact once or ever. in other cases the land was "bought" from Europeans who had never had contact with the native people who live on the land. even more, many native people had different relationship with land. kind of how one can not "own" air it was believed that one can not "own" land. additionally, in those rare cases were native peoples 'sold' land that they themselves lived on and understood what they were selling and what they were getting in exchange was worth what the land was worth, it was almost unheard of for Europeans and Americans to actually "pay" what ever it is they had originally agreed to pay or give in exchange. and thats only going at the surface of these so called "purchases"

as for the trail of tears. it actual is meant very much to down play what actually happened. its rare for a history text book in America to go into the hypocrisy of political figures, but also the term "trail of tears" downplays the role that some of these native cultures played in the creation of America, and the fucked up lives they were forced to live afterward. by placing it as an "incident" it removes it for a historical context.

errr. the founding fathers is only the beginning dear.
by their own account Columbus and his men raped and murder hundreds with their own hands.
also, in what sick mindset is a 60 year old man who has wanton sex with a 14 year old girl NOT a child molester?
and speaking of "slave owners" a slave CAN NOT offer legal consent as she is not afford that legal right over her own body and so ANY relation with a slave can be and should be termed rape (think statutory rape)
and in my book, if you willing separate families against their will, in order to gain a buck or two like some slave owners did that does make you a monster.

ps.
i counted just a few days ago i have that i own, 142 academic historical texts that i have read cover to cover. thanx.

some YOU might want to check out:
a peoples history of the united states
they came before Columbus
lies my teacher told me (this one contains the fun fact that American history books are NOT written by historians at all.)
other peoples children
Africans in America


i like how people are so willing and able to just down another, but when it comes to their own short comings they are defensive as they come. one of those fun things about some people.

Wigglytuff
Apr 12th, 2005, 02:58 PM
well well well Jiggly and I agree. Its kinda hard to see how Andrew Jackson was such a "great" president. Ignoring Supreme Court rulings to send the Indians to their death, so much for checks and balances, all heil King Andrew.

Plus he was the first to start appointing incompetent friends to high cabinet positions, the spoils system. And let's not even go to the Second National Bank :tape:

too true.

:sad: :sad:

Lord Nelson
Apr 12th, 2005, 03:42 PM
I don't subscribe to the theory that the natives were the good guys and the Europeans were the bad ones. The natives were fighting each other too for land & some of them scapled their victims. Women and children were enslaved too. The American Indians also came from Central Asia thus also traveled to distant lands in order to settle there like the Europeans.

To me the Europeans just happened to be the winners in their fight against the natives. I also don't see the founding fathers as being racist or whatever. Slavery existed and was practiced by everyone, whites, blacks, Indians, native americans etc.. The Ottoman Empire had European slaves, various African tribes had slaves too. Native AMericans also had slaves. The world was more brutal back then but I don't see the founding fathers as being racist. To me they were noble men.

I'm a big fan of Colombus and other adventurers such as Marco Polo, Magellan, Vasco da Gama etc.. Colombus will always be a controversial figure but Idon't see why he should be taken heat and not Saladdin, Vasco da Gama etc..

Spunky83
Apr 12th, 2005, 03:48 PM
Ok...JIGGLYPUFF, you have a point, of course Japan isnīt the only country which did something wrong (nearly every country has had a dark historical period) and the US-history has been discussed a lot of times. Basically the US is founded by british people who came to the US to spread out their religion and as a RESULT of that Indians got killed. Itīs wrong to assume Indians were all killed by the Puritansī hands but more because of the illnesses they brought along with them. Columbus and his Spaniards woulndīt have made population growing at the southern part of the US and the Caribbean as they only tried to earn as much money as possible but they didnīt reproduce due to a lack of female immigrants. So thereīs definetly a different in that.

1992 was the 500th anniversary of the first time Columbus stepped a foot on that ground and guess what? Big parties and celebrations have been cancelled due to the fact that a vast number of people (not only native Ameriacans) protested against it. Japan doesnīt even give a damn about an official apology.

You know, in Germany there are still a small number of idiots who think that Hitler and his assholes of buddies did something right, but at least the majority knows what really happened in those years and I would love to see that the school-kids and young people in Japan get to know that the country they live in, the country which tells them that they are a great society and which wants to set a standart to their population, is definetly not as innocent as they appear to be.

Japanese are betraying themselves, itīs not only sad, but also pretty stupid. Mostly history is just made up of facts, but history also contains emotions and values which stick to every generation of the population. Japan tries to make people forget step by step, in a few decades Japan wonīt even have particapted anymore and this is definetly wrong. Germany wouldnīt be the country as it is of today when the people wouldnīt have been constantly reminded about their awful past, every school-children learns that the country they live in hasnīt always been the nice country they know. At least once the school makes a trip to one of the former concentration camps, at least once you have to watch "Schindlerīs List", you read at least TWO books about it (mostly Anne Frankīs diary). You would never hear a German say they are proud of their country (unless itīs world cup football)...but they way it handles its past, makes me damn proud!

Japan has A LOT to do...this just canīt be right.

Spunky83
Apr 12th, 2005, 04:01 PM
Spunky, I'm afraid to say this but you seem to know very little of Germans. I don't know were you are from but even if you are German I would say this.

I have been living my whole life in Germany...and I am chinese. I certainly know more than you about Germany. I know its history, trust me;)

btw..."deutschland deutschland uber alles" really isnīt up-to-date anymore ( :rolleyes: ). After the second world war has ended, only the third verse was sung, others got banned. When the former eastern german part and the western part got united in 1990 it was decided the third verse would be the official national hymn.

Veritas
Apr 12th, 2005, 04:25 PM
y the hell does ( 反日本 ) = "friend Japan"??? :shrug:

I thought the first character meant "friend" :tape:

( 反日本 ) means anti-Japan / to overthrow Japan. ;)

How mature of you to do so :tape:

ginger_fish668
Apr 12th, 2005, 04:35 PM
I thought the first character meant "friend" :tape:



How mature of you to do so :tape:



No, the first character meast 'against' in Chinese, maybe it means different in Japanese, I dunno.... :p

Anyways, this whole thing is totally overblown. Japan should be brave enough to stand up and admit their past mistakes. Who do they think they're fooling? :rolleyes:

While the Mainland Chinese should just lighten up a little. The demonstrations and violence is unnecessary. I don't see people here in Hong Kong demonstrating. It's their education and the brainwashing that the Chinese government have done to them. And that is exactly why I think that both the Japanese and Chinese governments are the ones to be blamed. I wished the people would sit back and let the governments do their job.

But having said this, I really don't think this is a matter that can be resolved anytime soon. Probably not in my lifetime.

MisterQ
Apr 12th, 2005, 04:40 PM
I have learned a lot from reading this thread.

It proves more than ever that history is not absolute --- there is a tremendous amount of interpretation involved in recounting it.

The best one can do is read a variety of sources, and always remain skeptical.

Spunky83
Apr 12th, 2005, 04:41 PM
No, the first character meast 'against' in Chinese, maybe it means different in Japanese, I dunno.... :p

Anyways, this whole is totally overblown. Japan should be brave enough to stand up and admit their past mistakes. Who do they think they're fooling?

While the Mainland Chinese should just lighten up a little. The demonstrations and violence is unnecessary. I don't see people here in Hong Kong demonstrating. It's the brainwashing that the Chinese government have done to them. And that is exactly why I think that both the Japanese and Chinese governments are the ones to be blamed. I wished the people would sit back and let the governments do their job.

But having said this, I really don't think this is a matter that can be resolved anytime soon. Probably not in my lifetime.

Yep, true. There has to be an easy way out of all this crap.

People in HK are not demonstrating? But then they could stand in lines and they would have so many people around them, itīs a Hong Kong chineseīs dream;)...just kidding. Where in HK do you live?

Teachers should be allowed to teach the truth.

Spunky83
Apr 12th, 2005, 04:44 PM
I have learned a lot from reading this thread.

It proves more than ever that history is not absolute --- there is a tremendous amount of interpretation involved in recounting it.

The best one can do is read a variety of sources, and always remain skeptical.

Thatīs true as well...but hoping that young japanese students go online to make some history researchs about their own country canīt be expected.

ginger_fish668
Apr 12th, 2005, 04:51 PM
Yep, true. There has to be an easy way out of all this crap.

People in HK are not demonstrating? But then they could stand in lines and they would have so many people around them, itīs a Hong Kong chineseīs dream;)...just kidding. Where in HK do you live?

Teachers should be allowed to teach the truth.



Nah, people in Hong Kong are to busy with their own lives. Who has the time? I know I'm too busy with my own shit. :p

I live on Honk Kong Island, in Happy Valley. :wavey:

Anyways, parts of the Chinese history are also nasty, but they don't try to hide or distort the truth. Same with all other countries. I really don't understand what the Japanese are trying to do. They are a great nation in every other sense. Imagine the world without Japanese technology? Or Japanese food! :eek: I'd die! :p

They might think that they are protecting their younger generation, but can you imagine these uninformed kids growing up and then finding out the truth from other people? How would they feel then? Sigh....this is a very sensitive and complicated matter.

Veritas
Apr 12th, 2005, 05:00 PM
The problem is that the UN's Security Council is pretty inefficient. The best thing is to get rid of the permanent members veto power. But permanent members who are influential nations should still be allowed to retain certain powers.

Indeed.

I'm happy that Japan did not suffer territorial losses like Germany. The Soviets only managed to get Kuril islands of which only the southern island are disputed by Japan. Compare this to almost 1/3 area that Germany lost.

The Kurile Islands are and should be called the Northern Territories.

I strongly believe that Kunashiri, Etofuru, Habomai and Shikotan are Japan's rightful properties. The USSR had no right to grab them, since none of the islands were explicitly authorised by other Allied powers to be taken from Japan. Unfortunately, the Russians are stubborn and Japan won't sign a peace treaty until all islands are returned to Japanese sovereignty.

But I do believe Japan should give back the Diaoyu island to China. Despite the fishing rights that ownership of the island will guarantee, it's a small piece of uninhabitable rock which is far too worthless to be squabbling over about.

I do feel for the Chinese but there has to be a time when bygones have to be bygones. Japan is no longer a menace.

This is one of those rare moments where I will side with the Chinese nationalists on this issue.

China should not simply let "bygones" be "bygones". Firstly, it will be an insult to those who've directly suffered under Japanese occupation. Secondly, it would show Japanese extremists that they can invade their neighbours and not have to apologise or compesate for the damages imposed. Thirdly, it is crucial that China and others should insist that Japan's leaders must properly teach their young about the nation's past. It will at least do something to ensure that such tragedies won't be repeated in the future.

However, again I repeat that China should not stage anymore outrageous protests and anti-Japanese activities.

Doing so will only make the Japanese feel resentful. Since the current generation aren't directly responsible for what happened in the past, they don't carry as much guilt - and they shouldn't. Therefore, they won't be as...oh, I don't know..."submissive" or "guilt-burdened" maybe?

So how can there be any hope for a China-Japan friendship when neither country will act responsibly?

Japan provokes China with the way she handles her textbooks and her past.

China infuriates Japan with her blatant hypocrisy and her inability to effectively control anti-Japanese activities from getting out of hand.

It works both ways. Both countries won't act responsibly because neither one is taking intiative. So I hope people will at least investigate this issue more in depth before pointing fingers exclusively at either side.

By the way I hear Mushimato of Australia talking about right wing extremists in Japan. How about left-wing extremists in China? Extremists are not necessarily right-wing.

It's MUSASHINO. My username may not be of Anglo-Saxon origin, but it's not that difficult to spell.

Secondly, in Japan's case, it's the far right side who've been causing a bit of trouble. Japan's ruling party is, and has always been since post WWII, the LDP, which itself is mostly a rightist party. Think of it as the Japanese version of the Republicans. Of course, I'm not saying that the entire party is full of crap, but it's largely to blame for not doing enough to stop extremists within their group from embarassing the nation and arousing tensions with neighbours.

And of course extremists aren't necessarily right-wing. I never said such a
ridiculous thing.

As for my opinon regarding extremists on the Chinese side, I believe they're just as ignorant (though, more violent), except they don't have that extra burden of a criminal past.

ex hopman
Apr 12th, 2005, 06:20 PM
well, i was born in the states...but lived in japan for 15yrs total on and off, anyway, we don't study only with textbooks, you know...

and in school classes, i've seen the pictures/videos of the japan's attacking and cruel punishments over the Asian people during the war time, even pearl habor. most of us think the japan did so much of terrible things to hurt people and we really believe that that was wrong.
and overall, we really wish the world peace and non-violent environment.
we never meant to "glorify" our past invasion or any single wars in the world. We all know that the violence won't produce anything better. Maybe the citizens of Japan at the time knew that how tough their life was and we hear the stories and we never want any wars again. That's for sure.
I am completely lost how do some of the anti-Japanese groups think and say "let's stop the Japanese militarism"!? no way, the word "nationalism" in Japan sounds soooo behind the times here.

i wonder how can some people say that we, the young generations in japan don't know what was really happened during the war!? only because of the some textbook?

of course, i personally think the prime ministers shouldn't do the annual visit to the Yasukuni Shrine which the Asian people would like to call it "the war shrine" since the action itself has been hurting the people still. Maybe he could find some other ways to wish the peace.
and the minister of education's comment today!? that was hilarious!! "china is a scary country!!" she's such an idiot! she's the one of the politicians who have to act and do something!! that's their jobs!

However, the shrine is actually for everyone, not only for those Japanese soldiers who died during the war, there are for the Taiwanese soldiers and Korean soldiers or Chinese soldiers who were forced to sacrifice their precious lives. Koizumi often made a comment that he goes there to wish the world peace, not only to pray for the Japanese soldiers or "criminals".

Anyway... Prime Minister Murayama has apologized to asian countries once... I wasn't sure if that was an "official" or not..(from Musashino's info, that was not an "official") well, Koizumi should make a thoughtful comment and apologize one more time if the action will quiet down on everything...
but I doubt it'll come out sooner or later again when the Chinese protestants find "good" reasons, I think, unfortunately...

I feel sad really. I hope the people who protested could give their opinions to the government more freely, directly and more peacefully...

Anyway... I do believe that violance won't produce anything better. hate doesn't bring anything better. of couse, japan is not perfect at all. our government should do more and be more thoughtful for the people's feelings.

Musashino, I am really impressed with your information.

Wigglytuff
Apr 13th, 2005, 04:57 AM
I don't subscribe to the theory that the natives were the good guys and the Europeans were the bad ones. The natives were fighting each other too for land & some of them scapled their victims. Women and children were enslaved too. The American Indians also came from Central Asia thus also traveled to distant lands in order to settle there like the Europeans.

To me the Europeans just happened to be the winners in their fight against the natives. I also don't see the founding fathers as being racist or whatever. Slavery existed and was practiced by everyone, whites, blacks, Indians, native americans etc.. The Ottoman Empire had European slaves, various African tribes had slaves too. Native AMericans also had slaves. The world was more brutal back then but I don't see the founding fathers as being racist. To me they were noble men.

I'm a big fan of Colombus and other adventurers such as Marco Polo, Magellan, Vasco da Gama etc.. Colombus will always be a controversial figure but Idon't see why he should be taken heat and not Saladdin, Vasco da Gama etc..

you are not serious? are you?

Wigglytuff
Apr 13th, 2005, 05:04 AM
I have learned a lot from reading this thread.

It proves more than ever that history is not absolute --- there is a tremendous amount of interpretation involved in recounting it.

The best one can do is read a variety of sources, and always remain skeptical.

yep that is very true.

and that is case pretty much no matter where you are from.

Veritas
Apr 13th, 2005, 08:00 AM
Anyways, parts of the Chinese history are also nasty, but they don't try to hide or distort the truth. Same with all other countries.

Governments covering up or distorting history is nothing new. Japan is not the only country to have done something so blatantly wrong.

For example, let's take a look at China.

Between 1949-1975, Mao's China had resulted in the loss of over 40 million lives. The Great Leap Forward alone accounted for somewhere between 20-30 milllion deaths. Add that figure to the ones accumulated from incidents such as the Cultural Revolution, the Invasion of Tibet and various other military-related incidents, the CCP has quite a fair bit of Chinese blood on its hands. Yet how often do we hear about the CCP expressing "remorse" about its past? Why, it even forbids its citizens to talk openly about the infamous Tiananmen Square massacre :tape:

So can you honestly prove that China doesn't "try to hide or distort the truth" in regards to its own history? Japan is wrong for doing so itself, yet why are similar criticisms against the CCP conspicuously absent?

On a side note, it's rather ironic how Chinese Premier Wen said "Only a country that respects history, takes responsibility for past history and wins over the trust of people in Asia and the world at large can take greater responsibility in the international community". Yet despite its own past and its woeful human rights record, the CCP gets a seat on the UNSC. My oh my :tape:

I am not trying to make China look like a fool here. What I am trying to point out is that every country has been dishonest and because of that, Japan should not be singled out.

It is true that the Japanese government does officially sanction those controversial textbooks. And it is also true that their political personnels have often stopped short from offering an official apology. It's a disgrace that the the government still hasn't properly come to terms with its past. However, it is blatantly hypocritical of China to criticise Tokyo for the way it handles its history. How dare Beijing lectures others on "facing up to history" (again, Premier Wen's words) when it itself has glossed over much of its past.

In this regard, Tokyo is the liar and Beijing is the outright hypocrite.

And it is extremely suspect how Beijing tolerates anti-Japanese demonstrations when protests held about social issues and civil rights are routinely suppressed.....

Lastly, I think this entire issue about Japan "distorting" history has been blown out of proportion. Yes the LDP has not taken the initiative to act a little more responsibly and prevent any offensive materials from being published. However, what I find wrong is that not one single Chinese, Korean, and most other media outlets pointed out that the number of textbooks approved and the number of schools accepting them is miniscule. Instead, they make it seem as if all Japanese textbooks are are riddled with distortions, or that every Japanese school will be using them. Only 15 Junior high schools have confirmed they would be using those textbooks. Since Japan has, altogether, 11,134 junior high schools, the number of schools using the textbooks is roughly around 0.13%.

(http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/FJ26Dh01.html.).

ginger_fish668
Apr 13th, 2005, 08:12 AM
I agree with you Musashino, and that is precisely why I absolutely detest the Mainland Chinese government. They're liars and hyprocrites. I also hate the issues that China has with Hong Kong, Tibet, Taiwan......etc. But that's another story.

Still, in this matter, I'd say both parties are to be blamed. Afterall, it takes two hands to clap. But the greater part of the blame definitely lies with the Japanese government.

The Chinese people shouldn't use violence, as it does nothing but add fuel to the fire. But I would say that they were provoked. If the book didn't exist, then we wouldn't even be talking about this, right? :)

Veritas
Apr 13th, 2005, 08:21 AM
I agree with you Musashino, and that is precisely why I absolutely detest the Mainland Chinese government. They're liars and hyprocrites. I also hate the issues that China has with Hong Kong, Tibet, Taiwan......etc. But that's another story.

Still, in this matter, I'd say both parties are to be blamed. Afterall, it takes two hands to clap. But the greater part of the blame definitely lies with the Japanese government.

The Chinese people shouldn't use violence, as it does nothing but add fuel to the fire. But I would say that they were provoked. If the book didn't exist, then we wouldn't even be talking about this, right? :)

:clap2:

Exactly my thoughts.

I am glad that we have managed to hold a discussion and understand each other as well. Your comments are much appreciated.

I hope the CCP and those demonstrators will eventually be as open-minded and intelligent as you. It is far better to settle differences through peaceful dialogue rather than resorting to violence or verbal attacks.

However, I do keep in mind that the protestors, as barbaric as they have acted, have a very legitimate point to make. And for that, the Japanese government should not draw such tensions out any longer.

I hope there will be a China-Japan friendship in the near future, something along the likes of the Germany-France relationship of today.

Scotso
Apr 14th, 2005, 04:52 AM
Wasn't the Nationalist Party one of the "founding members"? I had read that the CCP only got that UNSC seat after Taiwan was ruled "unfit" to sit in such an exclusive body.

Yes, but the seats don't go to ruling parties, they go to the country. The United States was still a member with a Democrat or Republican in office. Whether or not the US or UN or whatever wanted to think after the Communists came to power in China, they were the legitimate ruling body.

Lord Nelson
Apr 15th, 2005, 01:49 AM
Chinese textbooks don't mention the millions who died during Mao's "Great Leap Forward."

Thousands of Chinese protesters take to the streets for a second day.

Japan seeks dialogue to ensure relations do not deteriorate further.

A weekend of protests heightened tensions between the rivals.

• What China textbooks don't say

• Long history of friction


SHANGHAI, China (AP) -- Some things you won't find in Chinese history textbooks: the 1989 democracy movement, the millions who died in a famine caused by misguided communist policies or China's military attacks on India and Vietnam.

As China criticizes Japan for new textbooks that critics say minimize wartime abuses like the Japanese military forcing Asian women into sexual slavery, Beijing's own schoolbooks have significant omissions about the communist system's own history and relations with its neighbors.

"With rising Chinese nationalism, the efforts to rewrite history, to reinterpret history according to the demands of nationalism have become a major national pastime," said Maochun Yu, a history professor at the U.S. Naval Academy in Annapolis, Maryland.

Experts say China's textbooks are written to heighten a sense of national victimhood and glorify the Communist Party that seized power in a 1949 revolution and lashes out at any threat to its rule.

The books describe those who died fighting Japan and other outsiders as having "gloriously sacrificed" themselves for China.

Propaganda paintings reproduced in schoolbooks show Chinese struggling against foreign invaders -- poses imitated by protesters who threw rocks at the Japanese Embassy in Beijing over the weekend during violent anti-Japanese demonstrations in several Chinese cities.

An eighth-grade history book used in Shanghai, China's most cosmopolitan city, repeatedly refers to Japanese by an insulting phrase that roughly translates as "Jap bandits."

The book focuses on Japanese atrocities and repeats China's claim that 35 million Chinese died or were injured during their 1937-45 war.

"Wherever the Japanese army went, they burned, killed, stole and plundered," the book says. "There was no wickedness they didn't commit."

Omissions of major events appear aimed at shoring up China's image of itself as a non-aggressor, especially since the 1949 revolution.

The books don't mention the brief but bloody 1962 border war with India that broke out when Chinese troops attacked Indian positions to enforce territorial claims.

There is nothing on the 1979 war when Chinese troops attacked Vietnam. The assault was ordered to punish Hanoi for ousting the murderous Khmer Rouge regime in Cambodia, which was an ally of Beijing.

Also missing:


The 1989 crackdown on democracy demonstrations, when Chinese troops killed hundreds and possibly thousands of unarmed protesters.


The estimated 30 million Chinese who starved to death during the 1958-61 "Great Leap Forward," revolutionary leader Mao Zedong's attempt to speed up China's farm and factory output through mass collectivization.

Textbooks gloss over ally North Korea's invasion of South Korea at the start of the 1950-53 Korean War, a conflict that drew in troops from the United States and other countries on the side of the South and China's army in support of the North.

The texts say only that "civil war broke out," without mentioning how it started. America is portrayed as an invader that forced Beijing to intervene by threatening Chinese territory.

A seventh-grade text also accuses the U.S. military of using biological weapons during the Korean War, repeating a claim made by China, North Korea and the former Soviet Union during the Cold War but never proven.

While Japan's distortions of its history appear driven by a reluctance to accept shame, China's are aimed at preserving communist rule, said Sin-ming Shaw, a China scholar at Oxford University in England.

"Not owning up is a calculated political policy," Shaw said.

Beefy
Apr 15th, 2005, 08:08 AM
I studied about China in year 11 (economics) and year 12 (history) and we saw in videos and books that China don't teach a lot about their past to this generation. A war against the British over tea (or something like that) was made into a film, and the Chinese put in the film some sea battle which they won, but failed to point out that the British ended up winning the war. Also how people aren't taught about Mao's regime

ginger_fish668
Apr 15th, 2005, 09:05 AM
Yeah, the Chinese Government are like that. Hypocrites. :(

There's gonna be a protest in Hong Kong this coming Sunday. I'm shocked, I didn't think that it would happen here too. Oh well....at least I'm sure it'll be more peaceful and orderly. I hope.

Veritas
Apr 16th, 2005, 01:36 AM
All of that is probably true.

So you're comparing Japan's democracy to China's communism/dictatorship?


OK fair enough.

Japan doesn't have a democracy. If it did, the LDP wouldn't have been in power since the end of WWII.

Veritas
Apr 16th, 2005, 01:56 AM
Wasn't there a Liberal Democrat vs Democrat party battle in the 2003 elections?

Yes, on November 9, 2003. It was the closest election yet, but the LDP managed to win 237 seats to the Democrat's 177 - a still sizeable margin. This means that the LDP will be in power until around 2007. Again, I don't think Japan will ever have a proper democracy. Non-authoritarian, yes. But U.S./Australia-style democracy - absolutely not. 'Gerrymandering' ensures this - The amount of voting power that farmers and people in rural areas have over those living in urban areas is enormously disproportionate. And they've been traditional supporters of the LDP, because of the protectionism the LDP issues for agriculture.

Lord Nelson
Apr 16th, 2005, 01:41 PM
All of that is probably true.

So you're comparing Japan's democracy to China's communism/dictatorship?


OK fair enough.
No, I'm comparing attitudes. The fact that China is a communist state should not excuse the governmentr for encouraging anti-Japanese rallies. I also see that this dispute relates to historical flaws written in ONE Japanese historical book. Bu I won't take sides here, I like both coutries. They need cooperation and focus on the future instead of continuing with these needless friction.