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Asmus
Apr 6th, 2005, 08:09 PM
Of active players, these are the ones with the most Tier II and above titles on clay:

Conchita Martinez: 11
Venus Williams: 6
Amelie Mauresmo: 5
Justine Henin-Hardenne: 4
Mary Pierce: 4
Jennifer Capriati: 3
Kim Clijsters: 2
Serena Williams: 2
Lindsay Davenport: 2
Elena Dementieva: 1
Jelena Dokic: 1
Anastasia Myskina: 1

Lemonskin.
Apr 6th, 2005, 08:12 PM
Why did you not call the thread Conchita the clay court specialist :retard:

UDiTY
Apr 6th, 2005, 08:13 PM
I think that's an impressive stat for Venus.

Surprised Lindsay only has 2:eek:

And cuz everyone KNOWS Conchita is a claycourt specialist Levo:retard:

LeRoy.
Apr 6th, 2005, 08:15 PM
Funny the top three clay court specialists in your list have won exactly ZERO French Open titles :eek:

DA FOREHAND
Apr 6th, 2005, 08:18 PM
Funny the top three clay court specialists in your list have won exactly ZERO French Open titles :eek:


yep the exact number Martina Hingis ended with ZERO!

Where's Monica Seles on the list?

Pengwin
Apr 6th, 2005, 08:19 PM
Last year I watched Venus play Berlin, she was absolutely Fawesome (fucking awesome), absolutely the best surface I have ever seen her play on.

LeRoy.
Apr 6th, 2005, 08:22 PM
yep the exact number Martina Hingis ended with ZERO!

Where's Monica Seles on the list?

Of active players, these are the ones with the most Tier II and above titles on clay:


Maybe the thread starter assumed they both have retired.:)

crazillo
Apr 6th, 2005, 08:23 PM
Last year I watched Venus play Berlin, she was absolutely Fawesome (fucking awesome), absolutely the best surface I have ever seen her play on.

In Berlin, she was lucky to esacpe Suarez and Sprem in exciting matches.

JennyS
Apr 6th, 2005, 08:23 PM
Do you count the Olympics as tier 2 and higher, cause Jen won the Olympics on clay.

Asmus
Apr 6th, 2005, 08:25 PM
I didn't count Monica Seles because she hasn't played for almost 2 years. It's much easier for me to not count her also because I'm not sure if old events such as Tampa, Houston and Barcelona were on clay and/or Tier II and above.

If they are, by the way, that means that Martinez has a couple more than I listed.

DA FOREHAND
Apr 6th, 2005, 08:25 PM
In Berlin, she was lucky to esacpe Suarez and Sprem in exciting matches.


so we can say she was unlucky in all her losses?

Asmus
Apr 6th, 2005, 08:26 PM
Do you count the Olympics as tier 2 and higher, cause Jen won the Olympics on clay.

Good point. I'll change it.

deja_entendu
Apr 6th, 2005, 08:26 PM
yep the exact number Martina Hingis ended with ZERO!

Where's Monica Seles on the list?

:hearts: the obsession continues! :hearts: :rolls:

:da forehand:

DA FOREHAND
Apr 6th, 2005, 08:27 PM
yes it does....are you now my lap dog?

venus_rulez
Apr 6th, 2005, 08:28 PM
Well this isn't reallly a surprise, Venus is a tremendous clay courter and if her detractors would take a look they would realize that this stat proves how versatile her game is. The reason she hasn't won the French Open is that when she's off clay by far more than any other surface makes it hard for her to hide her weaknesses. Her second serve sits up even more when she's not hitting it well, and because of the higher bounce her forehand can be even worse at times than it is on any other surface :lol: But I think this is true of all big hitters. But good job Venus another impressive stat :worship:

Asmus
Apr 6th, 2005, 08:31 PM
Updated to give Martinez and Capriati one more each, Martinez because I'm pretty sure that Barcelona was Tier II and was definitely on clay, and Capriati for winning the Barcelona Olympics.

Volcana
Apr 6th, 2005, 08:40 PM
#1 and #2 on the list have both made the finals at Roland Garros. It's not winning, of course, it'snot chopped liver either.

Dana Marcy
Apr 6th, 2005, 09:38 PM
Of active players, these are the ones with the most Tier II and above titles on clay:

Conchita Martinez: 11
Venus Williams: 6
Amelie Mauresmo: 5
Justine Henin-Hardenne: 4
Mary Pierce: 4
Jennifer Capriati: 3
Kim Clijsters: 2
Serena Williams: 2
Lindsay Davenport: 2
Elena Dementieva: 1
Jelena Dokic: 1
Anastasia Myskina: 1

That's impressive and here I was thinking that Capriati had more clay court titles than Venus. :o

_LuCaS_
Apr 6th, 2005, 09:40 PM
The first on the list is already out ;)
Next Venus and so on...lol Nastya is the last player standing :devil:

crazillo
Apr 6th, 2005, 09:56 PM
so we can say she was unlucky in all her losses?


Didn't mean that....... But I just wanted to say that she wasn't playing brilliantly at Berlin which someone said. Against sprem it was good yes, but Suarez, ugh. ;)

She is great on this surface though. :)

Jericho
Apr 6th, 2005, 10:34 PM
If Vee wins the German Open and Roland Garros, i think she'll join only Graf and Evert in winning all tier 2 and above clay titles.

Denise4925
Apr 6th, 2005, 10:37 PM
Of active players, these are the ones with the most Tier II and above titles on clay:

Conchita Martinez: 11
Venus Williams: 6
Amelie Mauresmo: 5
Justine Henin-Hardenne: 4
Mary Pierce: 4
Jennifer Capriati: 3
Kim Clijsters: 2
Serena Williams: 2
Lindsay Davenport: 2
Elena Dementieva: 1
Jelena Dokic: 1
Anastasia Myskina: 1
Then why do they call Jennifer and Justine specialists on clay and Venus isn't? I never knew this. Thanks for the info. :yeah:

Denise4925
Apr 6th, 2005, 10:38 PM
I think that's an impressive stat for Venus.

Surprised Lindsay only has 2:eek:

And cuz everyone KNOWS Conchita is a claycourt specialist Levo:retard:
:lol:

Denise4925
Apr 6th, 2005, 10:40 PM
In Berlin, she was lucky to esacpe Suarez and Sprem in exciting matches.
I saw that match against Sprem. Venus was playing terrific tennis and so was Sprem. Vee just outplayed Sprem. :shrug:

Denise4925
Apr 6th, 2005, 10:43 PM
:hearts: the obsession continues! :hearts: :rolls:

:da forehand:
There's deja, Julia's brother again in another Williams' thread. Seems as though he falls all over himself just to post in one. :lol: Pathetic. :rolleyes:

Tennisaddict
Apr 6th, 2005, 10:44 PM
Good stats from Venus :yeah:. I hope she stays healthy this year because she has a good chance to win Roland Garros.

Spunky83
Apr 6th, 2005, 10:49 PM
Didn't mean that....... But I just wanted to say that she wasn't playing brilliantly at Berlin which someone said. Against sprem it was good yes, but Suarez, ugh. ;)


Yep, although it was pretty interesting, I chose to attend that match instead of Momo-Kuzi on centre (sorry, Steffi-Graf-Stadium/Arena?). Venus struggled her way all through the match, Suarez played well.

But I guess you can say that in women´s tennis there is no real clay specialist...Conchi won Wimbledon for the clay´s sake ;)

volta
Apr 6th, 2005, 11:32 PM
an to think that people used to say that she was like Pete Sampras who never got great record in clay :rolleyes:

thelittlestelf
Apr 6th, 2005, 11:58 PM
Venus is an all-surface player (besides carpet, but who cares about carpet!). I still think she's at her best on grass, but there really isn't much change in the level of her game from surface to surface. She's great on all of them!

dreamgoddess099
Apr 7th, 2005, 12:19 AM
Venus is an all-surface player (besides carpet, but who cares about carpet!). I still think she's at her best on grass, but there really isn't much change in the level of her game from surface to surface. She's great on all of them! That's where Venus's awesome court coverage helps her so much. She gets her racket on balls the other girls can't touch.

CJ07
Apr 7th, 2005, 12:23 AM
I actually think when Venus is "on" her best surface is grass, then clay. Just because on clay, there's really nothing you can do to Venus outside of her errors. She just gets to everything...with interest

Dave B
Apr 7th, 2005, 12:30 AM
I think Venus has done well on clay in the past two or three years becaause her storkes have become more consistent and perhaps less risky. This would yield better results on clay.

VeeReeDavJCap81
Apr 7th, 2005, 12:39 AM
Venus is a smarter player than people give her credit for. That's why she's able to do well on all surfaces.

Junex
Apr 7th, 2005, 01:47 AM
yep the exact number Martina Hingis ended with ZERO!

Where's Monica Seles on the list?


hmmm.....obsession... :tape: :tape:

tennnisfannn
Apr 7th, 2005, 02:01 AM
venus' game on clay has been underrated simply because she was so overwhelimgly good on the hard court, same can be said of serena, she has won big on clay but becasue seh has extemely good results on other surfaces, clay appears to be a 'weakness' for her.
At the same time there is a myth perpetuated that clay neutralises power but except for myskina last year, the last 7 or so players have all been power players.
It is all about perception but results do show venus is very dangerous on clay.
Rg is obviously the ultimate prize but one can still be considered a specialist even withoutr winning it, think of the spaniards and the argetinians on the ATP. On the WTA, there is no such thing as a specialists, all the good payers can win oin anything, that is why i believe players like maria who are yet 'unproven' on clay can win RG, Lindsay has it in her to do so too but my heart wants to see Venus win it this year.

CJ07
Apr 7th, 2005, 02:20 AM
actually Serena is a perrenial quarter/semifinalist on the clay ;)

She has only made it past the SF of 4 clay events...3 in 2002 and the FCC in 2003

Veenut
Apr 7th, 2005, 03:03 PM
Venus is an all-surface player (besides carpet, but who cares about carpet!). I still think she's at her best on grass, but there really isn't much change in the level of her game from surface to surface. She's great on all of them!

You are exactly right!!!

abcd155
Apr 7th, 2005, 03:08 PM
Roland Garros is where Venus could shine again! If she keeps up her great play and stays healthy,then shes one of the favorites.

virtue05
Apr 7th, 2005, 03:45 PM
Yeah Vee is my favorite also to win Roland Garros, if she plays to her full potential, I don't see her loosing.

HumptyDumpty
Apr 7th, 2005, 03:52 PM
Of active players, these are the ones with the most Tier II and above titles on clay:

Conchita Martinez: 11
Venus Williams: 6
Amelie Mauresmo: 5
Justine Henin-Hardenne: 4
Mary Pierce: 4
Jennifer Capriati: 3
Kim Clijsters: 2
Serena Williams: 2
Lindsay Davenport: 2
Elena Dementieva: 1
Jelena Dokic: 1
Anastasia Myskina: 1


Venus didn't have a lot of success at the French Open however. Only ONCE in her long career was she able to advance further than the quarters (reached final in 02).
Compare that to the great clay-courters in the open era:

Evert won FO 7 times, made 2 finals and 3 semis.
Graf won FO 6 times, made 3 finals and 2 semis.
Sanchez won FO 3 times, made 3 finals and 4 semis.
Seles won FO 3 times, made 1 final and 3 semis.

HumptyDumpty
Apr 7th, 2005, 03:58 PM
Well this isn't reallly a surprise, Venus is a tremendous clay courter and if her detractors would take a look they would realize that this stat proves how versatile her game is. The reason she hasn't won the French Open is that when she's off clay by far more than any other surface makes it hard for her to hide her weaknesses. Her second serve sits up even more when she's not hitting it well, and because of the higher bounce her forehand can be even worse at times than it is on any other surface :lol: But I think this is true of all big hitters. But good job Venus another impressive stat :worship:


Venus was a great tennis player in her prime. But clay was her worst surface. In 1999-2001 she lost to Schwartz (!), an aging Sanchez, Schett (!) at the French Open. :eek: Compare this to her Wimbledon results just 4 weeks later each year: a loss to Graf in the best match of the tournament in 1999 and two title wins in 2000 + 2001.

HumptyDumpty
Apr 7th, 2005, 04:03 PM
Yeah Vee is my favorite also to win Roland Garros, if she plays to her full potential, I don't see her loosing.


Problem is Venus only played to her full potential in 4 slams - Wimbledon 2000, USO 2000, Wimbledon 2001, USO 2001.

Denise4925
Apr 7th, 2005, 04:40 PM
Venus was a great tennis player in her prime. But clay was her worst surface. In 1999-2001 she lost to Schwartz (!), an aging Sanchez, Schett (!) at the French Open. :eek: Compare this to her Wimbledon results just 4 weeks later each year: a loss to Graf in the best match of the tournament in 1999 and two title wins in 2000 + 2001.
:confused: Venus has six clay court titles. Of the active players, she is secondly only to Conchita Martinez with the most clay court titles in Tier II tournaments and above.

Denise4925
Apr 7th, 2005, 04:42 PM
Problem is Venus only played to her full potential in 4 slams - Wimbledon 2000, USO 2000, Wimbledon 2001, USO 2001.
How can you say that when she reached No. 1 in 2002 and reached four major finals in 2002 and 2003? That means she beat everybody else but Serena. :confused: Do you even watch tennis?

~CANUCK~
Apr 7th, 2005, 04:43 PM
i think that when Venus is playing well that clay is her 2nd best surface behind grass.

volta
Apr 7th, 2005, 05:00 PM
There's deja, Julia's brother again in another Williams' thread. Seems as though he falls all over himself just to post in one. :lol: Pathetic. :rolleyes:
:haha: :haha: the emancipation of Deja :haha:

Wojtek
Apr 7th, 2005, 05:01 PM
Clay court specialist :lol: and 30 ue in one set against player like Domachowska :lol:

jonny84
Apr 7th, 2005, 05:14 PM
I would say Venus is more a queen of hardcourts - especially the US ones :)

Though she is a good clay court player!

propi
Apr 7th, 2005, 05:19 PM
Of active players, these are the ones with the most Tier II and above titles on clay:

Conchita Martinez: 11

:hearts::hearts::hearts::hearts:
:worship::worship::worship::worship:
That says it all!!!
Conchita is still the queen :bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:


But I guess you can say that in women´s tennis there is no real clay specialist...Conchi won Wimbledon for the clay´s sake ;)
:) Wise words, I don't think you can/should talk about clay specialists anymore.

uNIVERSEmAN
Apr 7th, 2005, 05:52 PM
too many errors for a clay court game.

DA FOREHAND
Apr 7th, 2005, 05:57 PM
Clay court specialist :lol: and 30 ue in one set against player like Domachowska :lol:


yeah and Conchita was just bagelled and sent packing, what's your point?

DA FOREHAND
Apr 7th, 2005, 06:03 PM
Venus was a great tennis player in her prime. But clay was her worst surface. In 1999-2001 she lost to Schwartz (!), an aging Sanchez, Schett (!) at the French Open. :eek: Compare this to her Wimbledon results just 4 weeks later each year: a loss to Graf in the best match of the tournament in 1999 and two title wins in 2000 + 2001.


She also beat Hingis on the slowest courts on tour before the turn of the century when Hingis was in her prime.

Wojtek
Apr 7th, 2005, 06:24 PM
yeah and Conchita was just bagelled and sent packing, what's your point?

That she isn't clay court specialist. Henin or Mauresmo they're clay court specialist. In women it's easy to have good results in all surface for top players. You don't have to be clay specialist like players from South America in men to win titles.

If you heard "it's time for clay now" will you think "ok now it's time for Venus". Probably no (but who knows you're williams fan). Venus is superb player on hard court and grass but on clay there better players.

About Conchita, she is old, overweight and slow so it's no so hard to bagel her :rolleyes: and she didn't win on clay for long time so nice try from you

saki
Apr 7th, 2005, 06:47 PM
With the top players, none of them are really specialists on any surface. They all have their best surfaces and worst ones but none of the top 10-20 suck on any surface. Venus' game has evolved. I think she's still best on grass but she's now probably better on clay than on hard. Ditto Serena. Justine, on the other hand, is the other way around - she's still at her best on the dirt but she's got a pretty effective hardcourt game too now (can't argue with the U.S. Open & Oz Open titles she has!) and she always had a good game for grass.

PatM04
Apr 7th, 2005, 07:00 PM
Surprised Lindsay only has 2:eek:


Yep. Both are Tier II's at Amelia Island. She won there in 1997 and 2004. I am surprised by it as well. Even though she is not the best clay court player in the world I think everyone still knows that she can play on it. She showed that last year in taking AI in pretty nice form (barring the first half of the Petrova semi).

jj74
Apr 7th, 2005, 07:05 PM
Venus was a great tennis player in her prime. But clay was her worst surface. In 1999-2001 she lost to Schwartz (!), an aging Sanchez, Schett (!) at the French Open. :eek: Compare this to her Wimbledon results just 4 weeks later each year: a loss to Graf in the best match of the tournament in 1999 and two title wins in 2000 + 2001.

I agree with you, Venus in top form is able to win in any surface, but clay is her worst surface

CJ07
Apr 7th, 2005, 07:14 PM
I agree with you, Venus in top form is able to win in any surface, but clay is her worst surface
Carpet is Venus's worst surface by far

venus_rulez
Apr 7th, 2005, 08:34 PM
Though in all honesty our "clay court specialst" has frozen at the biggest clay court tounament of them all. How about this for a surprising stat she's never made the quarters of the French in consecutive years.

1997- 3rd
1998- Q
1999- 4th
2000- Q
2001- 1st
2002- F
2003- 4th
2004- Q

That's a very interesting (and worrisome) pattern. Because if this patter continues, Venus ain't makin it to the quarters this year. I'm not sure who she lost to in the third round to in 1997, but in all her previous pre -quarter exits, it's been against players she should have beaten.

DA FOREHAND
Apr 7th, 2005, 08:38 PM
That she isn't clay court specialist. Henin or Mauresmo they're clay court specialist. In women it's easy to have good results in all surface for top players. You don't have to be clay specialist like players from South America in men to win titles.

If you heard "it's time for clay now" will you think "ok now it's time for Venus". Probably no (but who knows you're williams fan). Venus is superb player on hard court and grass but on clay there better players.

About Conchita, she is old, overweight and slow so it's no so hard to bagel her :rolleyes: and she didn't win on clay for long time so nice try from you

On the womens tour i think of the same players i always think of....not Oh Amelie's gonna win the french...LOL or even justine....it's pretty much all Venus all the time...Mary, The Kuze, Kim , has nothing to do w/the surface.

Graf wasn't a clay court specialist either but she has 6 French Crowns

DA FOREHAND
Apr 7th, 2005, 08:39 PM
I agree with you, Venus in top form is able to win in any surface, but clay is her worst surface
indoor carpet...

jj74
Apr 7th, 2005, 08:43 PM
Wow, it's strange, Venus has a big serve, most of big servers do well in indoor carpet

samn
Apr 7th, 2005, 08:44 PM
Graf wasn't a clay court specialist either but she has 6 French Crowns

So what surface was Graf a specialist on? :lol: ;)

samn
Apr 7th, 2005, 08:45 PM
Wow, it's strange, Venus has a big serve, most of big servers do well in indoor carpet

Venus hardly ever plays on indoor carpet, however. I think her relatively low numbers on that surface have more to do with the time of year rather than the surface. It seems to me that VW is somewhat burned out by the time the fall indoor circuit begins.

DA FOREHAND
Apr 7th, 2005, 09:07 PM
So what surface was Graf a specialist on? :lol: ;)


she was great enough to be great on every surface...the greatest all surface player ever

saki
Apr 7th, 2005, 10:47 PM
she was great enough to be great on every surface...the greatest all surface player ever

Well, yes (see my above post on why all top 10-20 players aren't specialists) but, IMO, she was at her very best on grass. She was so comfortable on the surface - a complete joy to watch.

Julia1968
Apr 7th, 2005, 11:07 PM
#1 and #2 on the list have both made the finals at Roland Garros. It's not winning, of course, it'snot chopped liver either.

You can't be the Queen of Clay unless you have won the French Open.

VeeReeDavJCap81
Apr 7th, 2005, 11:08 PM
Venus is good on carpet as well. She's been in 3 Antwerp finals, taking the title twice, and has also won Paris Indoors as well. She just doesn't play indoors too often.

Asmus
Apr 7th, 2005, 11:29 PM
Venus also won Zurich in 1999 I believe, beating Hingis in the final.

Denise4925
Apr 8th, 2005, 05:01 AM
You can't be the Queen of Clay unless you have won the French Open.
Then I guess Serena is a Queen of Clay. :)

fOxYLiCiOuS
Apr 8th, 2005, 05:05 AM
Venus is good on carpet as well. She's been in 3 Antwerp finals, taking the title twice, and has also won Paris Indoors as well. She just doesn't play indoors too often.


:worship: I agree. :) Venus has a great game for Indoors, I think (If errors are minimal :p ) :hearts: I love watching Queen Vee when Indoor Tournie's are being played! ;)

I really want her to win Moscow :p :cool:

Clay is her weakest surface :rolleyes: She can win on any surface though ;)

Wojtek
Apr 8th, 2005, 05:05 AM
On the womens tour i think of the same players i always think of....not Oh Amelie's gonna win the french...LOL or even justine....it's pretty much all Venus all the time...Mary, The Kuze, Kim , has nothing to do w/the surface.

Graf wasn't a clay court specialist either but she has 6 French Crowns

Buhahahahaa :lol: :lol: That was funny and stupid

So only Gaudio or Kuerten from South America are clay court specialist because they won Grand Slam?

mishar
Apr 8th, 2005, 05:32 AM
Paris, Antwerp and Zurich are all indoor hard.

Moscow is on carpet, as is.. Tokyo? Linz?