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View Full Version : Clijsters vs Sharapova: Statistically God-Awful!


Volcana
Apr 2nd, 2005, 07:30 PM
Statistics aren't everything. For one thing, Clijsters' defense is so good that it forces opponents to go for more and more, often resulting in outsized numbers of UEs. However, that doesn't explain some of the other statistical oddities of this match.

Sharapova only winning 49% of the points on her FIRST serve!?!? Was she injured or something?
Clijsters herself having 30 UEs?
........................Clijsters..........Sharapo va

Winners (inc svc)..............10.................18
Unforced Errors................30.................34
Total Points Won...............75.................64

Break Conversions...06 of 12 = 50%.....04 of 08 = 50%
Net Approaches .....07 of 09 = 78%.....08 of 17 = 47%

1st Serve %....................67%............... 62%
1st Serve Win %.....25 of 42 = 60%.....23 of 47 = 49%
2nd Serve Win %.....11 of 21 = 52%.....14 of 29 = 48%

Fastest Serve Speed........106 MPH............107 MPH
Average Serve Speed.........99 MPH.............97 MPH

Aces.............................0................ ..1
Double Faults....................1..................3


I am also forced to point out that, if the statistics of the Venus vs Serena match had looked like this, we'd have had to endure 57 threads on how awful it was. It's likely though, that this just isn't a matchup that brings out the best in the other player. It certainly didn't this time.

ans
Apr 2nd, 2005, 07:31 PM
Have you seen the match? Have you seen how windy it was?

E. Blackadder
Apr 2nd, 2005, 07:33 PM
The thing is they don't make a difference between forced and unforced errors! When will they adapt stats and divide those two...

And yes Maria's 1st serve % was awful

Cybelle Darkholme
Apr 2nd, 2005, 07:34 PM
Champions find ways to figure out the conditions and win not come up with excuses.

Sure it was ugly as hell but the better player won.

Volcana
Apr 2nd, 2005, 07:38 PM
Have you seen the match? Have you seen how windy it was?There's a reason I started off the thread with 'Statistics aren't everything'. OTOH, we've been watching high wind matches all month, here and at IW. They don't all look like that.

However, having played in high wind, I certainly understand the difficulties players accustomed to aiming right at things must have. The bal doesn't stand still to be hit, or go where it's aimed.

Volcana
Apr 2nd, 2005, 07:44 PM
The thing is they don't make a difference between forced and unforced errors! When will they adapt stats and divide those two...They try. They just don't do a great job.

Sharapova 18 winners and Kim's 30 UEs only account from 48 of Sharapova's 64 points.

Clijsters' 10 winners and Sharapova's 34 UEs only account for 44 of Clijster's 75 points.

Theoretically, that leaves....

........................Clijsters..........Sharapo va
Winners (inc svc)..............10.................18
Unforced Errors................30.................34
Forced Errors..................16.................31

Total Points Won...............75.................64

Theoretically.

barmaid
Apr 2nd, 2005, 07:45 PM
Certainly the windy conditions are not going to give you impeccable tennis strokes. :rolleyes: Kim adjusted to the conditions much better than Maria..who was so frustrated that her shot selections were really "dumb" at times.:confused: Kim's superior athleticism certainly helped....that retrieval she made after Maria hit a screamer at her and it fell in for a winner was "unbelievable":worship: shot of the century!!:bounce: Kudos to Kim for a well deserved win!:hearts:


barmaid:wavey:

Szymanowski
Apr 2nd, 2005, 07:45 PM
Both players had the same conditions to cope with. I lost a match earlier today due to the wind, but I didn't cope with it how I should have. :sad:

lizchris
Apr 2nd, 2005, 07:57 PM
The wind doesn't account for the total of 12 breaks of serve because most of those break points were dumped into the net.


Volcana, you are so right. If the sisters posted stats like this, wind or not, some on ths board would be howling about how bad the match was.:rolleyes:

Joana
Apr 2nd, 2005, 07:57 PM
Please, we've seen far, far worse stats than those.

jacobruiz
Apr 2nd, 2005, 08:04 PM
The wind doesn't account for the total of 12 breaks of serve because most of those break points were dumped into the net.


Volcana, you are so right. If the sisters posted stats like this, wind or not, some on ths board would be howling about how bad the match was.:rolleyes:


When some posters complain that people always bring the Williams sisters into things remember that Williams fans do it too.

I think if it hadn't been so windy both players would have made fewer errors but that doesn't mean Kim still wouldn't have won.

SilK
Apr 2nd, 2005, 08:07 PM
statwise the match is deadawful, I agree...

but I saw the match, and next to fact that it was windy, for the both... I think quality-wise, speaking of tennis. it was a good match! there were a couple of mishits here and there, but most of the errors either game on a service return, or one of the two trying to do something 'extra' in the rally.

23TwentyThree23
Apr 2nd, 2005, 08:07 PM
The wind was everything! Kim MIGHT have won still if it had been a hot, windless day......but I don't think so.

WIMBLY2004
Apr 2nd, 2005, 08:08 PM
Break Conversions...06 of 12 = 50%.....06 of 12 = 50%

This must be wrong, how come they had the same breaks?

Just checked the nasdaq website, Maria has 4 of 8 = 50 %.

Volcana
Apr 2nd, 2005, 08:09 PM
This must be wrong, how come they had the same breaks?

Just checked the nasdaq website, Maria has 4 of 8 = 50 %.Bad cut-and-paste on my part. Thanx for catching that. Always appreciate help.

jenglisbe
Apr 2nd, 2005, 08:33 PM
And yes Maria's 1st serve % was awful
Since when is 62% awful?

bandabou
Apr 2nd, 2005, 08:40 PM
Good point though.....just like when Jen and Lindsay combined for 100+ufe at IW in ' 03....yet everybody was gushing how great the match was....and how bad the OZ open final was.....

lizchris
Apr 2nd, 2005, 08:41 PM
Since when is 62% awful?


I think he/she was talking about the winning % on her first serve.

SilK
Apr 2nd, 2005, 08:43 PM
The wind was everything! Kim MIGHT have won still if it had been a hot, windless day......but I don't think so.

Didn't they like... BOTH had to deal with the wind? :rolleyes:
That's not an excuse... EVER, for anybody! :o

Kart
Apr 2nd, 2005, 08:46 PM
Volcana I'm guessing you didn't see the match yet.

The conditions were much worse than any of the other matches I've seen this week.

It was obvious that both players were struggling but that in itself made compelling viewing.

When the weather calmed down towards the end of the match both players hit better shots.

Mercury Rising
Apr 2nd, 2005, 08:49 PM
I saw the match and thought it was great and thrilling with some great points. Stats are for nerds.

Oh yeah the wind was 100 times stronger than in any other match i saw these last 2 tournies...

WorldWar24
Apr 2nd, 2005, 08:54 PM
Well WHAT DID YOU EXPECT! If even Kim was struggling to put the ball in play for the first 2 games then perhaps the conditions weren't what I'd call perfect

"Topaz"
Apr 2nd, 2005, 08:58 PM
- Carried over from a similar thread -
- These stats show Maria needs a better net game and better defensive skills.

- Clijsters defense somewhat neutralized Maria's aggressiveness, thereby limiting the latter to only 18 winners despite some spirited attempts.

- One should also note Kim's superior winning percentages on 1st and 2nd serves, which are indicative of decent offensive skills. Too many people tend to deny her such skills.

- With a bit more variety and experience (plus improved defense, as I indicated before), Maria should remain highly competitive. That kid has most of the right stuffs.

BTW, didn't Hingis say Kim could end up #1 by yearend? As a former #1, she must have detected something most of us may have missed. The year is still young though and things are far from being settled. Yet, those impressive wins by Kim on her comeback are sending quite a message.

Isn't the tour great, with that many players producing superb tennis? :)

Infiniti2001
Apr 2nd, 2005, 09:11 PM
- These stats show Maria needs a better net game and better defensive skills.

Exactly!!! Relying on her serve only is a big mistake-- every player should be prepared for serving disaster days. Today she Kinda reminded me of Serena in her younger days.

Denise4925
Apr 2nd, 2005, 09:18 PM
The conditions were much worse than any of the other matches I've seen this week.


That's not what Maria said in her interview. She said that the conditions at IW were worse because the wind was swirling there and it wasn't in Miami, but it was windy and they both had to adjust.

Denise4925
Apr 2nd, 2005, 09:20 PM
- Carried over from a similar thread -
- These stats show Maria needs a better net game and better defensive skills.

- Clijsters defense somewhat neutralized Maria's aggressiveness, thereby limiting the latter to only 18 winners despite some spirited attempts.

- One should also note Kim's superior winning percentages on 1st and 2nd serves, which are indicative of decent offensive skills. Too many people tend to deny her such skills.

- With a bit more variety and experience (plus improved defense, as I indicated before), Maria should remain highly competitive. That kid has most of the right stuffs.

BTW, didn't Hingis say Kim could end up #1 by yearend? As a former #1, she must have detected something most of us may have missed. The year is still young though and things are far from being settled. Yet, those impressive wins by Kim on her comeback are sending quite a message.

Isn't the tour great, with that many players producing superb tennis? :)
When I watched the match, I thought the net game played a factor also. Kim was very good at net, whereas Maria missed a lot. Her volleys are not very good and it may be that the drop shots by Kim were at her feet and she's so tall, she couldn't get down to them.

WorldWar24
Apr 2nd, 2005, 09:23 PM
That's not what Maria said in her interview. She said that the conditions at IW were worse because the wind was swirling there and it wasn't in Miami, but it was windy and they both had to adjust.
Kart said it was the toughest conditions he saw THIS WEEK stupid

Denise4925
Apr 2nd, 2005, 09:26 PM
Kart said it was the toughest conditions he saw THIS WEEK stupid
Okay, glad you caught that. I misread the post. My apologies to Kart if I said anything to offend. :) Oh and thanks for the good rep. :) Opps, did you make a mistake too? ;)

fammmmedspin
Apr 2nd, 2005, 09:27 PM
1. its wet and windy in Miami.
2. The players played lots of long points which would have ended on an error who ever played them as it was difficult to get any winners past Kim. most of the top 10 can't sustain a point that long and make errors faster.
3. Statistics only mean something if they are not composd by bozos and the statisticians at Miami appear to be fully paid up members of the count anything and everything as an error school of bozo US tennis error counters.

Hawk
Apr 2nd, 2005, 09:29 PM
Exactly!!! Relying on her serve only is a big mistake-- every player should be prepared for serving disaster days. Today she Kinda reminded me of Serena in her younger days.

I didn't think Maria had a bad serving day though..It wasn't great, but it was pretty solid. Mary Carillo pointed out that neither player was really going for their serves due to the conditions.

Plus Kim gets an awful lot of returns back.

K.U.C.W-R.V
Apr 2nd, 2005, 09:30 PM
Windy.

WorldWar24
Apr 2nd, 2005, 09:32 PM
Okay, glad you caught that. I misread the post. My apologies to Kart if I said anything to offend. :) Oh and thanks for the good rep. :) Opps, did you make a mistake too? ;)
no, I never give people bad reps :)

Denise4925
Apr 2nd, 2005, 09:34 PM
no, I never give people bad reps :)
Okay, than thanks :) :yeah:

fOxYLiCiOuS
Apr 2nd, 2005, 09:50 PM
The match was actually okay. The wind annoyed Maria alot, not really Kim.

Kim's retrieving game is simply amazing. She was sliding all over the court, just chasing ball after ball. The wind made it more difficult for Sharapova's flat balls, and it resulted in a few too many erros from Masha. :(

Kim played the match too smart for maria :)

Stats are :eek: :sad: :tape:

faste5683
Apr 2nd, 2005, 10:08 PM
So, if the point of this thread is that the wind didn't cause a sloppy match, and that if Vee and Serena had played this badly there would have been 57 threads about "them", but so far only one about Kim and Maria?!

My brain hurts...


:wavey:

decemberlove
Apr 2nd, 2005, 10:15 PM
I am also forced to point out that, if the statistics of the Venus vs Serena match had looked like this, we'd have had to endure 57 threads on how awful it was. It's likely though, that this just isn't a matchup that brings out the best in the other player. It certainly didn't this time.

you are right, we'd see plenty of threads on how terrible it would've been.

but i don't understand how you whining about this match makes you any better than those who would've whined about the williams match...

ktwtennis
Apr 3rd, 2005, 12:47 AM
There's a reason I started off the thread with 'Statistics aren't everything'. OTOH, we've been watching high wind matches all month, here and at IW. They don't all look like that.

However, having played in high wind, I certainly understand the difficulties players accustomed to aiming right at things must have. The bal doesn't stand still to be hit, or go where it's aimed.He said that b/c of your Williams comment...

vogus
Apr 3rd, 2005, 01:08 AM
the statistical system used today in tennis is, putting it charitably, seriously flawed, because the so-called "statistics" of unqualified "winners" and "unforced errors" discriminate against great defenders like Clisters and Dementieva - there is no statistic that corresponds to good defense. The system really needs to be overhauled and broadened so that it presents more information about the match.

I didnt see today's match, so i can't comment on the quality. But i doubt it was awful, unless you are a Sharapova fan.

FaceyFacem
Apr 3rd, 2005, 01:22 AM
it was a crappy quality match for sure, and it is due to the wind definitely in part, i think they played average for each of them and the wind made it seem like they played terrible, as someone who has played in wind all my life, i can sympathize, it is no fun to play in weather like that and it totally messes up EVERYTHING you are trying to do, all in all, i'll remember kim won, and try and forget the low level

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2005, 01:33 AM
Net Approaches .....Kim = 07 of 09 = 78%.....Maria = 08 of 17 = 47%


Slices and drop shots. Make her come to the net. That's the key to beating Maria. IMO

Veenut
Apr 3rd, 2005, 03:02 AM
It is an established fact that UE's becomes the focus mainly when Williams play. As for everyone else they could make a thousand who cares?

For me, I'm not bothered by it because I love agressive tennis. Just hitting back and forth with no one taking the initiative to go for a winner is just so dull. My philosophy is go for winners, if you miss try and try again. What is exciting about hitting back and forth to see who tire first? Such tennis doesn't appeal to me so I don't waste my time watching it.

Dominic
Apr 3rd, 2005, 04:14 AM
I actually think that serena and venus' match was a lot worse in quality. The stats are just fucked up for this match. in the sisters match. sometimes it sincerely looked like they had never play tennis in their life. Especially serena, she was so so defensive it was incredible. And sometimes it looked like she just did not know how to swing. Many weird shots.