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View Full Version : Has the bar been raised in womens tennis in 04/05?


DA FOREHAND
Apr 1st, 2005, 05:24 PM
I don't think the new generation(Maria being the lead) has raised the level needed to win major tournaments just yet.

As I watched Venus play Maria close, playing at a level below her dominating 01 form , I realized that while there are more players capable of playing great tennis, the level at the very top hasn't progressed much from 01(Venus) 02(Serena) 03(Henin)

your thoughts?

jrm
Apr 1st, 2005, 05:40 PM
It's unfair to demand of teenagers nowadays to win majors

DA FOREHAND
Apr 1st, 2005, 05:46 PM
It's unfair to demand of teenagers nowadays to win majors


Really? Why is that? And who's demanding? This thread isn't even about winning majors, but about the level of play at the top of the game.

mango
Apr 1st, 2005, 05:47 PM
There is a real inability for the new generation of players like Maria to play all court tennis. Justine brought tennis to an all time new level by introducing great net play, style grace, and variation of pace. The williams brought athleticsm and power to the game, However the likes of maria and kuznetzova haven't improved the game, because of the lack of variety. When justine gets back to her best she will be having the likes of maria for breakfast lunch and dinner!

It would be funny if someone would be clever enough to make sharapova hit one difficult volley after the other!

ys
Apr 1st, 2005, 06:03 PM
The level of Maria's groundstrokes - in terms of pace and precision combination is something that WTA tennis has not seen yet. And do not compare it to Willy's level of 2000-2002. They simply had no competition, no other active player who could run quick and hit the ball hard. As soon as JHH rose, they were no longer dominant, which is no wonder, given how technically imperfect their game is.. They simply could not improve without hurting themselves time after time. Women's tennis now is in much better shape than three years ago. And the average level is much, much higher.

DA FOREHAND
Apr 1st, 2005, 06:14 PM
The level of Maria's groundstrokes - in terms of pace and precision combination is something that WTA tennis has not seen yet. And do not compare it to Willy's level of 2000-2002. They simply had no competition, no other active player who could run quick and hit the ball hard. As soon as JHH rose, they were no longer dominant, which is no wonder, given how technically imperfect their game is.. They simply could not improve without hurting themselves time after time. Women's tennis now is in much better shape than three years ago. And the average level is much, much higher.


Oh really? It's funny how history is so quickly distorted, people have already forgotten that the belgians didn't rise to the top until after Venus and Serena were injured. JHH never won a hc event where Venus/Serena/Lindsay were all entered. As far as hitting hard and precise from both wings consistantly Maria is nothing new, Monica did it better, and Lindsay still does it better. Maria is nothing new under the sun, nor has she raised the bar.....YET?

DemWilliamsGulls
Apr 1st, 2005, 06:43 PM
PULEEZE! Sharapova aint raise no damn bar in tennis she and EVERYBODY ELSE has just adjusted to it......THE WILLIAM SISTERS raised the level of play in tennis...I dont know why ya'll are trying to stamp so much to miss Sharapova. If anything...everyone else has caught up to the bar..but still they are not as good as the originals (vee and rena) who raised, they;ve just fell off from where they use to be. But YES...the bar has been raised...by POWER tennis that was instilled by the Williams Sisters.

Denise4925
Apr 1st, 2005, 06:51 PM
The level of Maria's groundstrokes - in terms of pace and precision combination is something that WTA tennis has not seen yet. And do not compare it to Willy's level of 2000-2002. They simply had no competition, no other active player who could run quick and hit the ball hard. As soon as JHH rose, they were no longer dominant, which is no wonder, given how technically imperfect their game is.. They simply could not improve without hurting themselves time after time. Women's tennis now is in much better shape than three years ago. And the average level is much, much higher.

I truly think you're on some kind of hallucinagenic drugs. :lol:

Stamp Paid
Apr 1st, 2005, 06:57 PM
As long as Maria continues to improve, you'll see a dominant form reminiscent of Venus '01. Definitely not the level of Serena '02, she will not transcend surfaces and win all 4 slams consecutively, but she's more than capable of going on long streaks of wins at a time and picking up 2 majors a year.

deja_entendu
Apr 1st, 2005, 06:57 PM
As I've said before, Maria hits her groundstrokes way harder and more accurate than Venus ever has. And her second serve is way better, too. So yes the level has been raised, the level is raised gradually every year.

ys
Apr 1st, 2005, 06:57 PM
Only the fabulous Williams Sistaaazzzz raised the bar in womens tennis.

That must be the third commandment of Williemorons's bible.. :lol:

per4ever
Apr 1st, 2005, 06:58 PM
Oh really? It's funny how history is so quickly distorted, people have already forgotten that the belgians didn't rise to the top until after Venus and Serena were injured. JHH never won a hc event where Venus/Serena/Lindsay were all entered.
I could have sworn that Justine beat Serena on her way to her first GS, but i could be wrong :tape: Asking that every player is playing is crazy, there's almost always someone injured.

Shonami Slam
Apr 1st, 2005, 06:58 PM
i think it's harder being a youngster today.
vaidisova won two WTAtour titles and people are saying she's all crap cuz she still didn't get to the latter stages of the GS.
hingis, capriati, seles - they were rare. masha belongs to that group.
but other youngsters weren't as good as golovin, safina, ivanovic and strycova are.
mirza, masha k, na li and such bring the average class of a top100 player way way better than 5 years ago.
the fact is that veterans are getting pushed out of the very top.
the fact is that youngsters are trying to be the best nowadays, and not only good players.
the fact is that you can't moonball no more, or have general stamina. you have to be quick, strong, smart and more.

ys
Apr 1st, 2005, 06:59 PM
I could have sworn that Justine beat Serena on her way to her first GS, but i could be wrong :tape:

Of course you are wrong. they could not possibly be wrong, could they? Oh, wait.. Today is their day..They get it only once an year.. Let them enjoy themselves..:lol:

Denise4925
Apr 1st, 2005, 07:00 PM
Only the fabulous Williams Sistaaazzzz raised the bar in womens tennis, the rest suck. Now let's move on to another topic.

I'm glad you finally see the light. ;)

Denise4925
Apr 1st, 2005, 07:01 PM
I could have sworn that Justine beat Serena on her way to her first GS, but i could be wrong :tape: Asking that every player is playing is crazy, there's almost always someone injured.

Yeah, on clay and just barely with a little help from :bigwave:

SelesFan70
Apr 1st, 2005, 07:02 PM
The bar was raised in the late 1990's through 2003 (mainly due to Venus and Serena). The tour has caught up, and the next generation will surely raise it even higher. :D

DA FOREHAND
Apr 1st, 2005, 07:02 PM
I could have sworn that Justine beat Serena on her way to her first GS, but i could be wrong :tape: Asking that every player is playing is crazy, there's almost always someone injured.


Where did I deny that? Go back and read my reply w/your eyes and your mind, and not your heart.

DA FOREHAND
Apr 1st, 2005, 07:04 PM
The bar was raised in the late 1990's through 2003 (mainly due to Venus and Serena). The tour has caught up, and the next generation will surely raise it even higher. :D


LOL nobody seems to be answering the question posed. Surely to raise and raised are two diff. things....Has the bar been raised?


Yes..."xyz"
NO ..."XYZ"

LeRoy.
Apr 1st, 2005, 07:05 PM
I don't think the new generation(Maria being the lead) has raised the level needed to win major tournaments just yet.

As I watched Venus play Maria close, playing at a level below her dominating 01 form , I realized that while there are more players capable of playing great tennis, the level at the very top hasn't progressed much from 01(Venus) 02(Serena) 03(Henin)

your thoughts?

If Venus /Serena "raised the bar" then the new breed must be doing something "better" than them to defeat them all the time. So yes the bar has been raised since the players that were better before aren't anymore.:)

kosmikgroove
Apr 1st, 2005, 07:11 PM
Yeah, on clay and just barely with a little help from :bigwave:

Justine demolished Serena in Charleston months before the Roland Garros; in straight sets none the less. Justine had just begun her intense physical training and was well on her way up to the top. Serena, being the great competitor that she is managed to do the same to Justine @ Wimbeldon where Serena's game is far more favorable to grass. So don't dismiss the Belgian yet, each have a game that works best on different surfaces, there's no need to discredit anyone!

But in response to this thread: A barely in form & rusty Justine managed to take Maria to 3 sets.. i wouldn't go so far as to say that Maria has raised the bar. She's just implementing her game better than the rest of the field at the moment

shap_half
Apr 1st, 2005, 07:13 PM
Oh really? It's funny how history is so quickly distorted, people have already forgotten that the belgians didn't rise to the top until after Venus and Serena were injured. JHH never won a hc event where Venus/Serena/Lindsay were all entered. As far as hitting hard and precise from both wings consistantly Maria is nothing new, Monica did it better, and Lindsay still does it better. Maria is nothing new under the sun, nor has she raised the bar.....YET?

Justine won a few hc events with Lindsay in the game, but I do agree with you that Maria isn't really adding another level of play to the tour. She's doing nothing special except hitting with great vigour and playing with a lot of heart. Is that something special or new? Not really.

DA FOREHAND
Apr 1st, 2005, 07:13 PM
If Venus /Serena "raised the bar" then the new breed must be doing something "better" than them to defeat them all the time. So yes the bar has been raised since the players that were better before aren't anymore.:)

YOU ARE A F'N IDIOT...or maybe you just started watching tennis.

Have you seen Serena's h2h record -v- top ten?
Lindsay Davenport just double bagelled the person many seem to have annointed as the future of tennis 6-0 6-0 :tape: :lol: :eek: :sad: :rolleyes: :wavey:

shap_half
Apr 1st, 2005, 07:19 PM
I think that with the absence of the Williams in 2003, Justine was definitely able to mold tennis into more her type of play. When she was playing it became increasingly important to come to net, play with variety, and play all-court tennis. That's how she was beating everyone she played. Even in Amelia Island against Zvonareva, who is a baseliner, came to net, served and volleyed, and hit a few drop shots against Justine and still lost in 2 sets. I think what Justine added to the game is something that combined both power and finesse. When the Williams were dominating, tennis was primarilly a baseliner's game with a lot of power and accuracy. In the present, tennis has really been about an all court mastery which I think is due to Justine's rise and minor dominance.

LeRoy.
Apr 1st, 2005, 07:19 PM
Sharapova leads Venus in H2H 2-0
Sharapova is tied with Serena 2-2

Venus alongwith her sister raised the bar of tennis and these days is getting beat by players like Sharapova , Myskina, Dementieva, Kuznetsova etc. So yes the "bar has been raised". :wavey:

Stamp Paid
Apr 1st, 2005, 07:40 PM
Sharapova leads Venus in H2H 2-0
Sharapova is tied with Serena 2-2

Venus alongwith her sister raised the bar of tennis and these days is getting beat by players like Sharapova , Myskina, Dementieva, Kuznetsova etc. So yes the "bar has been raised". :wavey:

Venus never lost to Svetlana.

Denise4925
Apr 1st, 2005, 07:42 PM
Justine demolished Serena in Charleston months before the Roland Garros; in straight sets none the less. Justine had just begun her intense physical training and was well on her way up to the top. Serena, being the great competitor that she is managed to do the same to Justine @ Wimbeldon where Serena's game is far more favorable to grass. So don't dismiss the Belgian yet, each have a game that works best on different surfaces, there's no need to discredit anyone!

But in response to this thread: A barely in form & rusty Justine managed to take Maria to 3 sets.. i wouldn't go so far as to say that Maria has raised the bar. She's just implementing her game better than the rest of the field at the moment

6-3, 6-4 is not a demolition. And, it took Justine three sets to beat Serena on her best surface. :tape: What does intense training have to do with anything? She still didn't win another slam until after Serena and Venus left the tour with injuries. No one is dismissing Justine, I just think she is not the all around player her fans wish her to be, because even with all her intense training, she's yet to capture the Wimbledon title.

Also in response to the thread, I know Maria has not raised the bar. She has no variety in her game, but what sets her apart is that she keeps her opponents pinned to the baseline and she's very accurate in her shot making.

jimbo mack
Apr 1st, 2005, 07:49 PM
Venus never lost to Svetlana.

she did, unfortunately. dubai last year

Szymanowski
Apr 1st, 2005, 07:50 PM
I reckon the Williams sisters were the ones who took tennis to a new level, simply because of their power of strokes. And while I do not particularly like either of them, I think this has only been a good thing for tennis in general, as it produced to sporting superstars for sports fans to watch, the media get a good family story, and the other players need to find a way either to match the power, as in Sharapova's and Kuznetsova's cases, or a better game, like Justine. I look at it as if the other players have caught up.

kosmikgroove
Apr 1st, 2005, 07:55 PM
6-3, 6-4 is not a demolition. And, it took Justine three sets to beat Serena on her best surface. :tape: What does intense training have to do with anything? She still didn't win another slam until after Serena and Venus left the tour with injuries. No one is dismissing Justine, I just think she is not the all around player her fans wish her to be, because even with all her intense training, she's yet to capture the Wimbledon title.

I was just making an assessment that even prior to Justine's intense training she was able to defeat Serena TWICE...in a row. That's an awesome accomplishment considering that Serena was the hottest player on the tour since she was coming off her Serena Slam. During Justine' domination she had the best opportunity to win the Wimbeldon title. It's in my OPINION that she could have won it last year had she been the player she was circa 04 Indian Wells had she not fallen victim to her illness.

Also in response to the thread, I know Maria has not raised the bar. She has no variety in her game, but what sets her apart is that she keeps her opponents pinned to the baseline and she's very accurate in her shot making. :worship: that's an exact description of Maria's game. anyone who can take her out of that groove has a great opportunity to take her out of the game.

SelesFan70
Apr 1st, 2005, 07:56 PM
LOL nobody seems to be answering the question posed. Surely to raise and raised are two diff. things....Has the bar been raised?


Yes..."xyz"
NO ..."XYZ"

The bar "was" raised...the next generation "will" raise it...so it's status quo for now, but serioulsy not for very long.

Stamp Paid
Apr 1st, 2005, 07:56 PM
she did, unfortunately. dubai last year

Ohhh....:o I forgot.

DA FOREHAND
Apr 1st, 2005, 08:00 PM
I reckon the Williams sisters were the ones who took tennis to a new level, simply because of their power of strokes. And while I do not particularly like either of them, I think this has only been a good thing for tennis in general, as it produced to sporting superstars for sports fans to watch, the media get a good family story, and the other players need to find a way either to match the power, as in Sharapova's and Kuznetsova's cases, or a better game, like Justine. I look at it as if the other players have caught up.


Catching up and raising the bar are two diff. things. Even when Hingis dominated the 97 season she didn't raise the bar, she was simply more skilled than the current players.

Raising the bar means you're playing at a sustained level above anything from previous generations. We haven't seen that since Serena 02.

LeRoy.
Apr 1st, 2005, 08:12 PM
Maria hasn't "caught up" with Venus. She has "gone past" her and yesterdays straight set demolition of an "in form" Venus was proof enough of that . :wavey:

Szymanowski
Apr 1st, 2005, 08:14 PM
Maria hasn't "caught up" with Venus. She has "gone past" her and yesterdays straight set demolition of an "in form" Venus was proof enough of that . :wavey:
True, Venus is in a real slump by her standards; I'll be very interested to see if she can get back out.

I was referring to Serena really; She's stayed at the very high standard, unlike Venus.

Szymanowski
Apr 1st, 2005, 08:16 PM
Catching up and raising the bar are two diff. things. Even when Hingis dominated the 97 season she didn't raise the bar, she was simply more skilled than the current players.

Raising the bar means you're playing at a sustained level above anything from previous generations. We haven't seen that since Serena 02.
I agree; what I meant, and what I thought I said in my post was that each williams sister, Venus, then Serena, raised the bar, then others came along and had to play catch up. Don't think I ever said anyone else really raised the bar.

alexusjonesfan
Apr 1st, 2005, 08:26 PM
people haven't argued about Justine in a GM thread in ages. this brings back memories :hearts:

Szymanowski
Apr 1st, 2005, 08:27 PM
Justine's backhand is possibly my favorite shot in all tennis, even more than Sharapova's 2 hander.

:D

nittanylionden
Apr 1st, 2005, 08:39 PM
Justine's backhand is possibly my favorite shot in all tennis, even more than Sharapova's 2 hander.

:D

Justine no doubt has the most beautiful backhand in tennis.

On another note, don't you think that today's top players would be hard pressed to compete against a Navratilova or Graf (among others) at their peek? For one thing, most of today's players are lost at the net. I don't think today's players have the all-court game to compete against the all-time greats.

Szymanowski
Apr 1st, 2005, 08:43 PM
Justine no doubt has the most beautiful backhand in tennis.

On another note, don't you think that today's top players would be hard pressed to compete against a Navratilova or Graf (among others) at their peek? For one thing, most of today's players are lost at the net. I don't think today's players have the all-court game to compete against the all-time greats.
Not with today's racquets. :sad:

But, yes, with wood;)

nittanylionden
Apr 1st, 2005, 08:46 PM
Not with today's racquets. :sad:

But, yes, with wood;)

I'm assuming that the all-time greats (Navratilova, Graf, etc.) are in their prime and using today's rackets when making that statement.

Szymanowski
Apr 1st, 2005, 08:49 PM
fair 'nuff;)

Cybelle Darkholme
Apr 1st, 2005, 08:56 PM
The future bar raiser of tennis is a six year old little girl somewhere waiting for her time to shine.


These things are cyclical.

Maria is just another Big Babe. Like someone said she's Lindsay with movement.


The girl who next raises the bar will bring something the women's side has never seen before. We've seen what Maria has to offer from other players. She does it well but she doesnt bring anything new and different.

The future is coming, just wait for it and enjoy what we have now while it lasts.

Its funny how people can't enjoy what they have in front of them instead of looking to the future for the next big thing.

Szymanowski
Apr 1st, 2005, 09:00 PM
Like someone said she's(Maria's) Lindsay with movement.

NOT true