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saki
Dec 29th, 2001, 11:28 AM
In the Career Grand Slam thread, people keep confidently predicting Venus to win Roland Garros and saying what a great clay court player she is. Well, I looked up the stats and it's rubbish!<br />While she doesn't have a terribly clay court record, it's certainly nothing in comparison to many other players on tour. E.g. Hingis, Seles, Henin, Mauresmo, ASV, Martinez et cetera.

I'm not saying that she won't win RG at some point, but to suggest that she's a serious contender this year is ridiculous. Her clay game needs an awful lot of work & until she takes the clay season as seriously as she does the hard-court tournis it's not going to happen.

<br />2001 record is:

Betty Barclay Cup Clay 1 Bye <br /> 2 Gala Leon Garcia W 6-1, 6-2 <br /> QF Silvia Farina Elia W 6-1, 6-1 <br /> SF Jelena Dokic W 6-3, 6-1 <br /> F Meghann Shaughnessy W 6-3, 6-0

German Open Clay 1 Bye <br /> 2 Karina Habsudova W 6-3, 6-3 <br /> 3 Justine Henin L 1-6, 4-6

French Open Clay 1 Barbara Schett L 4-6, 4-6

and 2000 is:

Betty Barclay Cup Clay 1 Bye<br /> 2 Irina Spirlea W 5-7, 6-2, 6-2 <br /> QF Amanda Coetzer L 3-6, 4-6

<br />Tennis Masters Series Clay 1 Bye <br />-- Roma 2 Chanda Rubin W 6-1, 6-2 <br /> 3 Jelena Dokic L 1-6, 2-6

<br />French Open Clay 1 Jana Kandarr W 6-0, 6-3<br /> 2 Tamarine Tanasugarn W 6-2, 6-2<br /> 3 Emilie Loit W 6-2, 6-2<br /> 4 Anke Huber W 7-6, 6-2<br /> QF Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario L 0-6, 6-1, 2-6

Tennisace
Dec 29th, 2001, 11:33 AM
Hmmm I don't know I think she's unpredictable on clay. For instance in 1999, which you forgot to include, she won Betty Barclay and Italian Open over Pierce in both events! <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

Tennisace
Dec 29th, 2001, 11:35 AM
Oh and 2000, she was just coming off her injury if that means anything, don't know. I stand by the fact that she's unpredictable. Like in 1999 losing to Schwartz after having match points! <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

saki
Dec 29th, 2001, 11:41 AM
Actually, I just didn't bother to look up 1999 as it seemed too long ago to be relevent given how much she's improved since.

But we may as well have them anyway.

1998:

Italian Open Clay 1 Yayuk Basuki W 6-2, 6-3<br /> 2 Maria Sanchez Lorenzo W 6-1, 6-4<br /> 3 Alexandra Fusai W 6-1, 6-1<br /> QF Serena Williams W 6-4, 6-2<br /> SF Arantxa Sanchez Vicario W 6-3, 2-6, 7-5<br /> F Martina Hingis L 3-6, 6-2, 3-6

French Open Clay 1 Tamarine Tanasugarn W 6-3, 6-1<br /> 2 Ai Sugiyama W 6-0, 6-2<br /> 3 Alexia Dechaume-Balleret W 6-2, 6-1<br /> 4 Henrieta Nagyova W 6-1, 6-3<br /> QF Martina Hingis L 3-6, 4-6

and 1999:

Bausch & Lomb Clay 1 Bye<br />Championships 2 Sonya Jeyaseelan L 4-6, 6-7<br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />Betty Barclay Cup Clay 1 Bye<br /> 2 Magui Serna W 6-3, 6-1<br /> QF Amanda Coetzer W 6-4, 6-3<br /> SF Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario W 6-1, 6-3<br /> F Mary Pierce W 6-0, 6-3 <br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />Italian Open Clay 1 Bye<br /> 2 Gala Leon Garcia W 7-5, 4-6, 6-4<br /> 3 Anna Kournikova W 6-2, 6-2<br /> QF Dominique Van Roost W 7-6, 6-2<br /> SF Martina Hingis W 6-4, 1-6, 6-4<br /> F Mary Pierce W 6-4, 6-2

French Open Clay 1 Alexandra Fusai W 6-1, 6-1<br /> 2 Natasha Zvereva W 7-6, 6-0<br /> 3 Alicia Molik W 6-3, 6-1<br /> 4 Barbara Schwartz L 6-2, 6-7, 3-6

turt
Dec 29th, 2001, 11:42 AM
Well, I don't think you can say that Venus is a threat on clay as she played well on this surface only 3 weeks (in a row) in 4 years!

saki
Dec 29th, 2001, 11:44 AM
But the point is that clay is not a surface you can afford to be unpredictable on. You need patience and consistency on clay which Venus hasn't yet developed. As I said before, I'm sure she'll get there if she wants to, but she's definitely not there now.

cheeky
Dec 29th, 2001, 02:06 PM
anybody can look up old facts and say that this person is not good on clay because results say this but we'll never know this unless that player actually goes out and plays,those results were from last year this is a new tennis season and anything is possible,once again we have to look at jennifer,she lost in the first round in 2000 and i'm sure nobody thought she would anything in 2001,but she ended going from losing in the first round in 2000 to the winner in 2001,so we can only say so much from old facts,also we don't know what kind of training venus has done to help herself on clay,until we know this we can't judge her or anyone else on there clay ability,i'm not automatically saying that venus will win the french open but no matter what the results she always be considered a favourite just because she is one of the higher ranked players.

Williams Rulez
Dec 29th, 2001, 03:17 PM
Bad stats does nothing when it comes to Venus. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Venus came from nowhere to win the Wimbledon. She has shown her ability to play on clay. So it is all a matter of putting in the work and the commitment, getting the timing right. Mostly, getting the mental approach right. Once that is set, I think Venus has a great chance of winning the RG one day <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Infiniti2001
Dec 29th, 2001, 03:27 PM
<img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> The regular season is barely upon us, but here "we" are talking about what Venus Williams can and cannot do. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

<br />http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/operatic/135/848fef60.jpg

saki
Dec 29th, 2001, 03:29 PM
Actually, I wouldn't say that Venus came out of nowhere to win Wimbledon. I always thought her game was well suited to grass, and I think a lot of people did the same.

With clay, it's a matter of putting in the work & effort. At the moment I get the impression that the clay season and RG isn't as important to Venus as the big hardcourt tournis and the U.S.Open. But, of course, if she does decide that she really wants to win RG she could do not. Not this year, and I don't think she could ever dominate RG but I wouldn't bet against her winning it at some point.

moon
Dec 29th, 2001, 04:20 PM
most of those people who you have named as having better records than Venus on clay, have been playing much longer than she has. The only 2 who have played less that have better records are Henin and Mauresmo. So if that's your argument for Venus not winning RG its a little wobbly.

She's won titles on clay in 2 out of the last 3 years, and she made it to the quarters of RG in 2000 after being out for 6 months. She lost to ASV in 3 sets who is no slouch, so as far as I'm concerned that was a good showing.

Venus has the game for clay. Her chances for winning RG THIS COMING YEAR are just as good as anyone of the people you mentioned earlier.

If Jennifer Capriati and Mary Pierce can win it, then certainly Venus can.

btw--if Venus wins Oz, look for her to complete the slam.

cynicole
Dec 29th, 2001, 04:28 PM
I love digging up stats as much as the next person. But I do think that Venus' chances of winning RG is a lot better than her stats say.

She tore through the draw at Hamburg. She's beaten players like Hingis on clay.

And look at Clijsters. She made a semifinal on clay and then lost 3 straight times on the surface and then made the RG final, and got to 2 points from winning the thing. And I think she lost first round in 2000.

And look at Henin's grass stats prior to this year. They were crap. I'm a huge Henin fan but I wouldn't read much into her clay stats either. Who did she beat on clay? Venus and who else? Who has Venus beaten? I think over the years she's gotten the better of Hingis, ASV and Pierce. Not bad there. She's won Hamburg and Rome. What does Henin have? Tier IV Antwerp.

Not counting Fed Cup, Clijsters doesn't even have a clay title.

I wouldn't read much into the stats.

I don't think that there really are any players particularly honed to clay. They just can't afford to be. So I don't think that there's any current player now who will dominate RG. Not Venus, not anyone. But I think they all pretty much have a shot at winning it...except for maybe Lindsay for attitude reasons (she just doesn't seem to like the stuff).

itsallvenus
Dec 29th, 2001, 04:33 PM
I'm with you Moon. Venus has a chance. I think Venus has a Steffi Graf-like clay mentality which I think means she will need to be much more patient on clay and not try to go for as many winners. Venus has played badly on clay and she has played great on clay. The matches she won and lost have been posted already.

I think Venus' main problem in Paris is she thinks she has improved her forehand so now she can win it b/c her strokes are consistent so she gets overconfident. She needs to take each player seriously and not think she is going to cruise through. She should realise that she is a huge target especially on clay b/c her serve and fast game is slowed down some.

Julian
Dec 29th, 2001, 04:38 PM
Interesting that Venus played my Arantxa at least once every year from 1998-2000. But I think 2000 was somewhat of a fluke. She SHOULD have beaten Jelena and Amanda. Not so sure of the French Open though. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Heavy_Hitta
Dec 29th, 2001, 06:03 PM
[quote]Actually, I just didn't bother to look up 1999 as it seemed too long ago to be relevent given how much she's improved since. <hr></blockquote>

<br />heeeheeeeee... but you managed to LOOK UP the year 2000 results right? The year Venus was OUT injured for months, then came back, right at the clay court season. 1999 is "too long ago" to be relevant, but THE VERY NEXT FOLLOWING YEAR IS?

Kart
Dec 29th, 2001, 08:16 PM
I find this an interesting topic - I think that Venus will one day win Roland Garros, maybe even this year.

I think that what she needs to do is play a full clay court season - to give her as good a chance as possible - the most important thing being to build up her confidence.

Her mental attitude is not as strong as on other surfaces I feel - I have seen it quoted that her ambition is to win the French open so she perhaps seems less confident on clay than on other surfaces.

In 2001 in France it looked to me that she was struggling for answers when in the tight match situation - and she looked underprepared against Schett who is an excellent player with the abilities to capitalise. When Venus gets into that situation she normally finds a way out but that day she didn't look like she believed she could.

Of course she could just turn around and win it with no warm up as she has a tendency to do, but I would like this year to see her fully committed and build herself up to peak there which depends on playing more clay matches than last year and not getting injured.

Pureracket
Dec 29th, 2001, 08:29 PM
Kart,<br />I agree with most of your synopsis in your topic. However, I think Venus was very prepared for the clay season in 2001. She played the proper amount of warmup tournaments (one tourney she actually didn't lose a set). In another, she lost to a hot Henin who was too much for Venus on that day (what do you do in a situation like that?).

Even as we saw the draw, we knew that Venus would have an interesting match against Schett. We knew that if Venus were not on the top of her game that day, then an upset was inevitable. Well, that's exactly what happened. To me, though, she looked like she was in wonderful physical condition, and in the match, she ran down every ball. Schett was wonderful and was not intimidated by the big match situation. I believe that if Venus would have gotten through Schett in that first round that she could have done some serious damage at the 2001 French.

Kart
Dec 29th, 2001, 08:39 PM
clocker <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

I agree - if she had beaten Schett she would have gone a long way.

Last year though Venus was entered for the Italian open but then pulled out through injury - meaning that she only really played six clay matches before, when she was planning to play more.

This year I'm hoping that she'll play the full three warm-ups instead of the two last year and I think that will improve her chances of playing more matches - assuming dhe doesn't run into players playing as well as Henin that day (although I didn't see it I heard she was very good).

Crazy Canuck
Dec 29th, 2001, 08:44 PM
"But I think 2000 was somewhat of a fluke. She SHOULD have beaten Jelena and Amanda."

On talent alone, perhaps she should have won those matches. However I see that she lost both in straight sets, and was crushed by Jelena.<br />In which cause she shouldn't have won, since the match was never in her grasp anyhow. Though I think you were just referring to my first sentance anyhow, in which case I already agreed.

" The regular season is barely upon us, but here "we" are talking about what Venus Williams can and cannot do. "

Well seeing as there are about 5 or 6 threads devoted to Jennifer Capriati's demise, I think its a legitimate topic. YOu might note that SK never said that Venus wouldn't win ROland Garros - she just said she wasn't picking her this year.

Furthermore, as a top player, Venus is open to analysis. I don't give a crap WHO she is - no top player is imune to it.

Heavy Hitta: I have a feeling sk only included the last 2 years, cause she didn't think about the year 200 injury. To be honest, when I read the stats, I didn't think about it either.

Beleive it or not, not EVERYONE is just trying to make Venus look bad. They were just stats - no reason to get all worked up about it <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: Becca ]</p>

Crazy Canuck
Dec 29th, 2001, 08:45 PM
moon: I tend to agree... If Venus won Oz, I personally might throw a few bucks down on her winning them all.

moon
Dec 29th, 2001, 10:58 PM
Becca--in defense of Infiniti--her comment was not about Venus being analyzed, but the tone sk in the post, in which she basically said, Venus can't play on clay. She also went on to say the Vee would not win RG this year. I think that was what Infiniti was referring to, and not the fact that there is a thread analyzing her clay record. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

btw--I completely agree with I think it was Kart who described Venus as underprepared for RG. I haven't seen that look on Vee's face in a long time if ever. She looked like a deer caught in headlights out there, like she really didn't know what to do. Luckily though, lightening doesn't seem to strike twice where Vee is concerned, and I think she will be better prepared.

Double Fault
Dec 29th, 2001, 11:10 PM
It wouldn't surprise me at all if Venus were to win RG. As Moon has already pointed out Venus looks very hungry this year.

I don't think much to past records on a surface. Lindsay didn't have a great grass court record before she won Wimbledon. If Venus can stay injury-free then she will be a force at RG. Afterall Venus is one of the favourites for any tournament she enters (if not the fav')

Venus is very fit, so the longevity of a clay court match shouldn't bother her too much just so long as she's healthy.

A4
Dec 29th, 2001, 11:23 PM
Well, I think the sample sizes of her clay court matches are too small to conclude that she isn't going to win RG this year. I personally think if she played more on clay, her record wouldn't be that different from some of the so-called stellar performers on clay. As it were, I wouldn't call her record exactly crap either, since I believe some top players will kill to have that record now. I don't buy the mental thing though. Sometimes, some players sometimes seem to play above themselves and beat her fair and square (see Barbara Schett).Based on her records, I'd have to go with her being pretty unpredictable, but always dangerous on any surface.

[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: A4 ]</p>

Infiniti2001
Dec 29th, 2001, 11:32 PM
Thank you Moon ... "SOME" people on this board are so contentious, they can't tell the forest from the trees <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/operatic/135/848fef60.jpg

-Sonic-
Dec 30th, 2001, 12:06 AM
I wholeheartedly believe venus will do a career grand slam, and will win a vast amount of clay titles.

saki
Dec 30th, 2001, 01:01 AM
As usual, what I said has been misinterpreted by various people.

I can only repeat:

1. I am not saying that Venus cannot play on clay.

2. I am not saying that she will never win RG.

3. I am saying that while her record on clay isn't terrible, it isn't demonstrably better than the rest of the top 10.

Basically, clay is a very equalising surface. E.g. players like Jelena Dokic, Amanda Coetzer wo who wouldn't have a hope in hell playing against Venus on hardcourts can and have beaten her on clay.

What doing well on clay requires is consistency and patience neither of which Venus has developed sufficiently.

I have no doubt that if she did decide to develop these two qualities she could do very well on clay.

What I am however arguing is that right now she is not the player to beat on clay.

On the other hand she is the player to beat on hardcourts and grass.

And Becca is quite right that I only posted the last two years because I hadn't considered the injury. When someone pointed it out, I posted 1999 and 1998 to get a fuller picture. Believe it or not, I don't have an agenda here. I was just interested to see what others thought. My opinions aren't cast in stone!

And various people have brought up interesting points regarding players who've suddenly started doing well on a surface that you wouldn't expect like Henin on grass, Venus on grass, and Capriati on clay.

Infiniti2001
Dec 30th, 2001, 01:58 AM
[quote] Basically, clay is a very equalising surface. E.g. players like Jelena Dokic, Amanda Coetzer wo who wouldn't have a hope in hell playing against Venus on hardcourts can and have beaten her on clay.<hr></blockquote>

That may very well be true, but you fail to remember that Venus was just back from a 6 month lay off with wrist tendinitis at that time... Not that it's any excuse, but come on, how much practice do you think she had before getting back in the swing of things?? As far as I am concerned , these 2 matches are irrelevant . As always this is just my humble opinion <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

moby
Dec 30th, 2001, 03:14 AM
[quote]Originally posted by Williams_Rulez:<br /><strong>Bad stats does nothing when it comes to Venus. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Venus came from nowhere to win the Wimbledon. She has shown her ability to play on clay. So it is all a matter of putting in the work and the commitment, getting the timing right. Mostly, getting the mental approach right. Once that is set, I think Venus has a great chance of winning the RG one day <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> </strong><hr></blockquote>

actually that's not true<br />In 98 Wimby, Venus lost to eventual winner Jana<br />In 99 Wimby, Venus lost to finalist Steffi (we all know how steffi plays on grass)

so she didnt just come out of nowhere<br />she had a proven record

moby
Dec 30th, 2001, 03:17 AM
That said I'm not saying she wont win RG because she has shown that she can play on clay.

She just wont win it until martina does <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

Crazy Canuck
Dec 30th, 2001, 04:10 AM
moon: I simply interpreted what sk said differently than Infiniti2001; and as it turns out, I interpreted it correctly.

Some people on this board, such as Infiniti2001, tend to misinterpret what one means more often than none.

Crazy Canuck
Dec 30th, 2001, 04:18 AM
hmm...why do I feel like I should retract my claws or something? <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

Vanity
Dec 30th, 2001, 04:35 AM
You see, the problem with Venus' clay court record is that she simply doesn't prepare for the season. The reason her and Serena never make it far at Roland Garros is because, in terms of clay court match practice, they are way behind everybody else.

xcrtbckhnd
Dec 30th, 2001, 05:01 AM
Hold on a second! I'm not a poster that likes to argue with other posters, but to say that Amanda "wouldn't have a hope in hell playing against Venus on hardcourts" is simply an unfair statement. The topic of this thread is about past results, so check this one:

2001 Australian Open Hard (O) QF Venus WILLIAMS 6-2 1-6 6-8 d. Amanda COETZER

I think Amanda's results in this match were better than a "hope in hell"? She lost, but it was close enough that I'm sure one could conclude that she had a real chance to win this hardcourt match. Your thoughts?

Sorry, but I always try to defend my darling lil' 'sassin!!

Deira
Dec 30th, 2001, 05:24 AM
Venus has consistently whittled down criticisms about her game:

1. She will never win a tournament<br />2. She will never win an important tournament<br />3. She will never win a Grand Slam<br />4. She will never repeat her Grand Slam wins.

I'm hoping she will take all four Grand Slams in 2002 just to see what the critics will come up with then. They'll probably go back to criticizing Richard <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Infiniti2001
Dec 30th, 2001, 05:25 AM
[quote] Some people on this board, such as Infiniti2001, tend to misinterpret what one means more often than none. <hr></blockquote>

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/operatic/135/868b0850.jpg

tenn_ace
Dec 30th, 2001, 05:34 AM
the only thing these stats are showing is that she never really committed to a clay season. I'm sure that once she put some efforts and commitment, Venus will win FO.

Dawn Marie
Dec 30th, 2001, 05:44 AM
rolleseyes at Becca <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> Aren't you the same chic who got a little ticked at my Martina and baby Martina Poll? WE ALL get defensive about our favorites. I don't see why you came in here with that post??

Anyhow Venus has just a good a shot as anyone in the current top 200. Fact is very few women in the current 20 have WON the thing. Hmmmmmm lets see. ASV, Seles,Jennifer who else has won the RG Slam and thus has a better shot at Venus this year? Venus has beaten alot of great clay courters and that is enough for me to count her in. If she's not that great or has no chance of winning RG this year then what does that say for the players who lost to her?

Dawn Marie
Dec 30th, 2001, 06:27 AM
Nah it will be the same excuse that martina hingis used when she withdrew from the canadian open last year. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

Also Venus played in many clay warm-up tourneys. Won Betty Barclay Cup. At least she won one. <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> I would rather enter two and win one then enter 4 and win elzero <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Infiniti2001
Dec 30th, 2001, 06:51 AM
Venus lost to 4 players ( I don't count her injury at IW as a loss) in 2001, and she did not make any excuses. She gave the much deserved credit to all her opponents...

post match interview at Roland Garos 2001

Q. When last we saw you, for me anyway, it was at the Ericsson. You were coming in and volleying brilliantly. I don't think you came in once of your own volition today.

VENUS WILLIAMS: Maybe once or twice, but not nearly as much as I should have.

Q. Now that you are out of the singles, what do you think of Serena's chances? How well do you think she's prepared for the tournament?

VENUS WILLIAMS: I think her chances are very good. Anyone who's focused and willing to put it all on the court.

Q. If you play the same match again, will you change your tactic, and what exactly would you change?

VENUS WILLIAMS: Well, I think I'd move in a lot more and I'd get my feet in better position.

Q. In the last year, especially with the Grand Slams that you've won, when you've had important games like you did in the last game, but today you had breakpoint chances, a number of chances to get on top of her, and you didn't. Were you not mentally in the space where you wanted to be?

VENUS WILLIAMS: Not mentally. I just think my groundstrokes were just off. I was just making quite a few errors for no apparent reason at all. So for me today it was quite difficult to control that aspect.

Q. When you saw her name in the draw beside yours, did you sort of think that was a little bit tougher than you could have had? Maybe the average-ranked player would have been an easier --?

VENUS WILLIAMS: Definitely she's in the Top 30. I had no problem with it at all. If anything, I thought it was an opportunity. I never dreamed it would turn out like this.

Q. Venus, when you say, for example, your groundstrokes just weren't there today, how much of it is waking up on the day and feeling that it's there or it's not there? How much of that can you control?

VENUS WILLIAMS: I try not to play on feelings, if I can. It's just if I feel good or if I'm feeling good, "Spin today." That doesn't really count for anything. You really have to go out there and do the right thing at the right time. That's what really lacked today.

Q. When it's a situation like that, is there anything you can do to try to turn it around?

VENUS WILLIAMS: Normally I do turn it around. But today it just wasn't there.

Q. How would you assess your year right now? Are you satisfied with January through June?

VENUS WILLIAMS: As far as the Grand Slams, not too well. This is my fourth loss of the year. Four too many losses maybe.

Q. If this were a faster surface, do you think you maybe could have hit enough winners, kept enough pressure on her? Did it have something to do with the fact that you do have to be steady and grooved on this surface, you do have to have your game in order to beat someone who is playing well?

VENUS WILLIAMS: Who's to say? I can't just tell myself, "Sure, if I was on a hard court, I would have won." I don't see it that way. <br />It's on a clay court, and I would have liked to have won on the clay.

I can't find the interview for Bank of West after she lost to Shaughnessy, but here's what Venus said :<br />"I think, more than anything, she served well throughout the match," Williams said. "I think that was the key."

I will post her interviews from Nice,and the Austrailian Open as soon as I find them <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

Crazy Canuck
Dec 30th, 2001, 06:55 AM
Dawn Marie: I think we've came to the conclusion that I occasionally have a stick up my ass <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> This may or may not have been one of those times <img src="graemlins/wavey.gif" border="0" alt="[Wavey]" />

Infiniti2001 : Even though it was directed at me, that was actually rather amusing.

saki
Dec 30th, 2001, 12:14 PM
xcrtbckhnd: yeah, sorry about the Amanda comment. I was just in a slightly bad mood when I wrote the last post. I'm very fond of the little assasin too!

[quote]Originally posted by Deira:<br /><strong>Venus has consistently whittled down criticisms about her game:

I'm hoping she will take all four Grand Slams in 2002 just to see what the critics will come up with then. They'll probably go back to criticizing Richard <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> </strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm not anti-Venus in any way! I'm not a particular fan of hers - in fact I don't have a favourite player at all at the moment - but enjoy watching her play on grass in particular. All I was trying to do was see what other people thought of her clay court game. I don't think that makes me "a critic". And I couldn't care less what Richard says or does. I'm not interested in off-court antics.

Infiniti - lol @ your poster thingy!

cynicole
Dec 30th, 2001, 04:36 PM
[quote]Originally posted by Dawn Marie about Venus:<br /><strong>If she's not that great or has no chance of winning RG this year then what does that say for the players who lost to her?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Precisely. Thank you for bringing this up. Sums up what I generally think: you diminish one player's achievement(s) and it knocks everyone they've beaten.

And just a correction to Infiniti2000's post - Venus has 5 losses to 5 different players - Hingis (AO), Maleeva (Nice), Henin (Berlin), Schett (RG) and Shaughnessy (Stanford). (It's just something I'm very familiar with.)

[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: cynicole ]</p>

Infiniti2001
Dec 30th, 2001, 04:48 PM
[quote] And just a correction to Infiniti2000's post - Venus has 5 losses to 5 different players - Hingis (AO), Maleeva (Nice), Henin (Berlin), Schett (RG) and Shaughnessy (Stanford). (It's just something I'm very familiar with.)

<hr></blockquote>

<br />Thanks <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

Vanity
Dec 30th, 2001, 08:22 PM
Another year, another batch of withdrawls. I'm just curious to see what lame excuses she will come up with this year. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: Vanity ]</p>

cheeky
Dec 30th, 2001, 09:18 PM
i don't really care what venus' schedule is like as long as she keeps kicking everyone butts like she always does!!! <img src="graemlins/bounce.gif" border="0" alt="[Bounce]" />

TeeRexx
Dec 30th, 2001, 09:30 PM
The only ones coming up lame will be the opponets of VENUS as a result of hopelessly trying chasing to chase down the winners hit by the Goddess of Tennis. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

TR <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

Vanity
Dec 30th, 2001, 10:07 PM
Shows how much you all know about tennis. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

-Sonic-
Dec 30th, 2001, 10:17 PM
those 'lame withdrawals' are helping out every other player on the tour... many players would have fewer ranking points, fewer titles and fewer dollars in the bank if it wasn't for them.

Infiniti2001
Dec 31st, 2001, 12:19 AM
"Some" non-fans are so compelled and fascinated by the Williamses they can't look away. They just can't stop thinking about them, so they babble on endlessly about their every move <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: Infiniti2001 ]</p>

LucasArg
Dec 31st, 2001, 03:55 AM
Vanity , you re new here, and you have started with the wrong foot. If you expect a bad year for Venus Williams, or if you re hoping her to retire soon...

YOU'LL LIVE IN A NIGHTMARE ALL THE SEASON. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Williams Rulez
Dec 31st, 2001, 04:11 AM
*Yawn*... yours is worse.

You bash Williams and their fans for no reason. And you don't even support you *cough* *arguements* <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> with any satistics.

IAM#1
Dec 31st, 2001, 04:25 AM
Vanity you cannot hate the Williams' that much cause you are always in their threads.. stop perpertrating the truth you love them as much as we do.. and also they are 21 years old with a father and a mother and they can damn well do what they please. if they wanna pull out so be it.. they are not obligated to anyone but themselves and as long as their fans and themselves are not complaining why shouldn't you.. lindsay d. says she respects them fot that because a lot of times she feels like she has to play.. They are so well-rounded they do not have to depend on tennis...

IAM#1
Dec 31st, 2001, 04:26 AM
i meant to say why should you..

Williams Rulez
Dec 31st, 2001, 04:28 AM
They pull out of tournaments, so what? If they are not you favourites, you should be glad they pull out of a tournament, so you don't have to watch them play at all. So you don't have to see them, or have any news of them.

I laugh at your arrogance, making assertions that aren't remotely close to fact. If you call us "cocky", think how impossible it is. How can every Venus fan be cocky? The real reason is that your own cockiness inspires a furious response from every and anyone who likes venus even remotely.

Jovon
Dec 31st, 2001, 04:45 AM
...Hmmmm, I'm not all that sure that Vanity is <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> "new"...

A4
Dec 31st, 2001, 04:49 AM
Well, Vanity, I guess your name says it all, right? Anyway, it isn't like you are coming up with some original analysis either. Where I come from in Mars, we call it Venus-bashing. We've also heard all those "standard" analysis and reasons and we are not one little bit impressed. Come up with something new, and we'll talk, okay?<br /> And if you doubt you are not being original, just go as the Queen of them all, Queenjennifer or Queensandrine. I forget the name!

Williams Rulez
Dec 31st, 2001, 04:58 AM
Haha... look at Vanity's signature:

[quote] The words of a true idiot:<br />"Don't bash Venus and Serena just because they ALWAYS beat your favorites. <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> " <hr></blockquote>

Looks like my harmless signature to almost everyone has hit a nerve. Right on the spot too. Some one is jealous. <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> Can't take a little humour eh?

Dawn Marie
Dec 31st, 2001, 05:03 AM
LMAO@VANITY <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> Look up VANITY is the DICKtionary.

And I dont believe your a NEW poster . I bet your some idiot who just wants to debate with Williams fans because your bored. Trying to get a rise out of Venus fans.

Williams fans lets ignore this faker poster. I mean we have nothing to explain to him/her because VENUS IS DOING OUR TALKING.

LMAO now watch my ass be the first to reply tomorrow to him/her . <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

Williams Rulez
Dec 31st, 2001, 05:05 AM
Anyway look Vanity, it is clear you do not like the Williams sisters. We do not see eye to eye. So why not we just put this aside. You try to keep these *bashes* to a minimum, and we try to leave you alone. How's that? <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

We could talk about other players though. I do like some of the players in your signature <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Vanity
Dec 31st, 2001, 05:13 AM
Yes, the signature did hit a nerve.. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Anyway, Williams_Rulez, you seem like a nice enough person, so I think you are right. I got a bit carried away, I'll admit. It's good to know you like some other players besides the Williams... like Iva Majoli for example <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> So therefore, I completely agree with what you said and we'll move on.

I can assure eveyrone though that I am new to this board. You can ask "cat in the hat", he knows me from the Anna K board <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Dawn Marie
Dec 31st, 2001, 05:18 AM
How about this signature?

Dont hate the wta because they beat your fav?

Williams Rulez
Dec 31st, 2001, 06:20 AM
Hi Vanity <img src="graemlins/wavey.gif" border="0" alt="[Wavey]" />

I agree with you, let's move on <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <br />We can do a lot more than argue about the Williams all day <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> lol

Vanity
Dec 31st, 2001, 06:45 AM
You are very right, Williams_Rulez

At least we agree on something <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

saki
Dec 31st, 2001, 12:20 PM
Hey, this wasn't supposed to be an argumentative topic! I'm not interested in what people think about Venus or Serena's personality, withdrawals et cetera. As far as I'm concerned, they're self-employed and can play whatever tournaments they damn well feel like. What I am interested in is what people think of Venus (note, not Serena, they aren't the same person) Williams' claycourt game.

Williams Rulez
Dec 31st, 2001, 12:59 PM
lol... sorry, we got a little carried away... <img src="redface.gif" border="0"> <img src="redface.gif" border="0"> I promise not to do it again! <img src="graemlins/angel.gif" border="0" alt="[Angel]" /> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">