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DA FOREHAND
Mar 1st, 2005, 05:55 PM
Steffi Graf

1)Monica Seles
2)Martina Hingis
3)ASV
4)Jana Novotna
5)Lindsay Davenport
6)Jennifer Capriati
7)Chris Evert
8)MJ Fernandez
9)Conchita Martinez
10) Natalie Tauziat

UDiTY
Mar 1st, 2005, 05:58 PM
By significant you mean has a good lead in H2H?:confused:

Calimero377
Mar 1st, 2005, 06:08 PM
Steffi Graf

1)Monica Seles
2)Martina Hingis
3)ASV
4)Jana Novotna
5)Lindsay Davenport
6)Jennifer Capriati
7)Chris Evert
8)MJ Fernandez
9)Conchita Martinez
10) Natalie Tauziat


Graf has a lead against NINE #1 players (and three draws - Navi, Austin and S. Williams):

Evert
Seles
ASV
Davenport
Capriati
Hingis
V. Williams
Clijsters
Mauresmo


:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

DA FOREHAND
Mar 1st, 2005, 06:09 PM
Graf has a lead against NINE #1 players (and three draws - Navi, Austin and S. Williams):

Evert
Seles
ASV
Davenport
Capriati
Hingis
V. Williams
Clijsters
Mauresmo


:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:


That may be true, but some she only played 2-3 times.

Knizzle
Mar 1st, 2005, 06:43 PM
Graf has a lead against NINE #1 players (and three draws - Navi, Austin and S. Williams):

Evert
Seles
ASV
Davenport
Capriati
Hingis
V. Williams
Clijsters
Mauresmo


:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

He said significant.

Brooks.
Mar 1st, 2005, 06:55 PM
Serena.........


Everyone!

lol j/k........but mostly everyone

tennislover
Mar 1st, 2005, 07:38 PM
Navratilova (almost a pensioner) vs Graf 9-9 :p

DA FOREHAND
Mar 1st, 2005, 07:53 PM
Navratilova (almost a pensioner) vs Graf 9-9 :p


Ugh, that's even, doesn't quite cut the mustard. If that's the best example you can come up w/ :tape:

faboozadoo15
Mar 1st, 2005, 07:55 PM
Ugh, that's even, doesn't quite cut the mustard. If that's the best example you can come up w/ :tape:
kinda significant though that martina in the latest stage of her LONG career still went toe to toe with someone that people misguidedly call the greatest player of all time.

DA FOREHAND
Mar 1st, 2005, 08:00 PM
kinda significant though that martina in the latest stage of her LONG career still went toe to toe with someone that people misguidedly call the greatest player of all time.


Yeah i guess that's significant if you have low standards.

Significant to me is 10-5....7-2
Funny how everyone's trying to pick apart Steffi's incredible record instead of coming up w/the goods from thier all time favorite.

faboozadoo15
Mar 1st, 2005, 08:03 PM
for monica seles

jennifer capriati
amanda coetzer
mary joe fernandez
anke huber
monica shut out the maleeva family bar the match in hamburg
conchita martinez
martina navratilova
gabriela sabatini
arantxa sanchez-vicario
ai sugiyama
nathalie tauziat
sandrine testud

blumaroo
Mar 1st, 2005, 08:07 PM
Lindsay Davenport

vs Capriati 9-3
vs dokic 9-0
vs Dementieva 10-4
vs Mauresmo 8-3
vs Pierce - 8-2
vs Seles 10-3
vs Zvonareva 5-0

:worship:

faboozadoo15
Mar 1st, 2005, 08:08 PM
Yeah i guess that's significant if you have low standards.

Significant to me is 10-5....7-2
Funny how everyone's trying to pick apart Steffi's incredible record instead of coming up w/the goods from thier all time favorite.

significant means meaningful or important, am i right?
it would be important to note that navratilova, playing in her twilight years was still able to beat steffi half the times they played right in the middle of steffi's career.

anyway, this is not the reason i came into this thread in the first place.

if anyone wanted to take a look at martina's incredible record, they could have fun and do that. i wouldn't be a good person to ask to do that because martina has dominant head to heads against probably everyone she ever played, and to rank them 1-10 isn't something i would be good at because i wasn't alive for a great deal of her domination.

DA FOREHAND
Mar 1st, 2005, 08:13 PM
significant means meaningful or important, am i right?
it would be important to note that navratilova, playing in her twilight years was still able to beat steffi half the times they played right in the middle of steffi's career.

anyway, this is not the reason i came into this thread in the first place.

if anyone wanted to take a look at martina's incredible record, they could have fun and do that. i wouldn't be a good person to ask to do that because martina has dominant head to heads against probably everyone she ever played, and to rank them 1-10 isn't something i would be good at because i wasn't alive for a great deal of her domination.
"List the top ten players your all-time fav. has a significant h2h over "

9-9 isn't over...that's even...get it :wavey: :retard:


It's also significant to point out that Martina, consciously avoided Steffi in those years.

Martina is still playing, so I don't think her twilight was anytime in the 80's

DA FOREHAND
Mar 1st, 2005, 08:16 PM
significant means meaningful or important, am i right?
it would be important to note that navratilova, playing in her twilight years was still able to beat steffi half the times they played right in the middle of steffi's career.

anyway, this is not the reason i came into this thread in the first place.

if anyone wanted to take a look at martina's incredible record, they could have fun and do that. i wouldn't be a good person to ask to do that because martina has dominant head to heads against probably everyone she ever played, and to rank them 1-10 isn't something i would be good at because i wasn't alive for a great deal of her domination.


At least you can admit you have no idea what you're talking about....

faboozadoo15
Mar 1st, 2005, 08:24 PM
At least you can admit you have no idea what you're talking about....
wow, i'm glad your mature enough to quote the same post twice just to hurl insults.

what qualifies as significant? is this just asking for the top 10 players your favorite player completely overwhelmed? because then, for sure, martina and steffi's head to head should stay out of this, they've even.

:haha: so wait... martina consciously avoided playing steffi, but you can't see hopw this is the same thing steffi did while monica was #1? gotcha.

never said i have no idea what i'm talking about, just that to rank the top 10 players martina dominated isn't something i would specialize in. my favorite player has a winning head to head over martina, so i guess i wouldn't really know how it would feel to be even with her or to be losing. didn't experience that.

R&J
Mar 1st, 2005, 08:26 PM
for monica seles

jennifer capriati
amanda coetzer
mary joe fernandez
anke huber
monica shut out the maleeva family bar the match in hamburg
conchita martinez
martina navratilova
gabriela sabatini
arantxa sanchez-vicario
ai sugiyama
nathalie tauziat
sandrine testud

I will add a few more faboozadoo15 :hug: :wavey:

Zina Garrison
Anna Kournikova
Chanda Rubin
Jelena Dokic
Kim Clijsters (although they havent played alot, Monica has yet to lose to her)
Silvia Farina Elia
Amy Frazier
Naoko Sawamatsu

tennislover
Mar 1st, 2005, 08:27 PM
Ugh, that's even, doesn't quite cut the mustard. If that's the best example you can come up w/ :tape:

the list of Martina's opponents who were beaten by her dozenz of times is simply endless......

DA FOREHAND
Mar 1st, 2005, 08:28 PM
wow, i'm glad your mature enough to quote the same post twice just to hurl insults.

what qualifies as significant? is this just asking for the top 10 players your favorite player completely overwhelmed? because then, for sure, martina and steffi's head to head should stay out of this, they've even.

:haha: so wait... martina consciously avoided playing steffi, but you can't see hopw this is the same thing steffi did while monica was #1? gotcha.

never said i have no idea what i'm talking about, just that to rank the top 10 players martina dominated isn't something i would specialize in. my favorite player has a winning head to head over martina, so i guess i wouldn't really know how it would feel to be even with her or to be losing. didn't experience that.


Steffi never avoided anyone.. Tennis commentators and historians (even those close to Martina) have gone on record to say Martina avoided Steffi. Where's your proof? Does 6-4 ring a bell?

Knizzle
Mar 1st, 2005, 08:40 PM
Just a few

Venus Williams:

4-0 vs Jennifer Capriati
6-2 vs Kim Clijsters
7-1 vs Justine Henin Hardenne
9-1 vs Monica Seles


Serena Williams:

10-4 vs Davenport
4-0 vs Dementieva
9-1 vs Mauresmo
7-1 vs Clijsters
7-5 vs Venus

R&J
Mar 1st, 2005, 08:43 PM
Steffi never avoided anyone.. Tennis commentators and historians (even those close to Martina) have gone on record to say Martina avoided Steffi. Where's your proof? Does 6-4 ring a bell?

Being on Monica's side of the draw wasnt too good for Martina either.

Smackie
Mar 1st, 2005, 08:44 PM
Just a few

Venus Williams:

4-0 vs Jennifer Capriati
6-2 vs Kim Clijsters
7-1 vs Justine Henin Hardenne
9-1 vs Monica Seles


Serena Williams:

10-4 vs Davenport
4-0 vs Dementieva
9-1 vs Mauresmo
7-1 vs Clijsters
7-5 vs Venus

Knizzle: You avatar pic is nice. They both look so cheerful and sweet!

Pengwin
Mar 1st, 2005, 08:46 PM
Steffi never avoided anyone.. Tennis commentators and historians (even those close to Martina) have gone on record to say Martina avoided Steffi. Where's your proof? Does 6-4 ring a bell?


Steffi NOW would not beat anyone in the top 100000, so I don't see how you can say that about Martina.

tennislover
Mar 1st, 2005, 08:51 PM
"
It's also significant to point out that Martina, consciously avoided Steffi in those years.



what???????? :eek:

Congratulations you have just won "the best joke of the year" prize! :lol: :lol: :lol:

DA FOREHAND
Mar 1st, 2005, 08:55 PM
Steffi NOW would not beat anyone in the top 100000, so I don't see how you can say that about Martina.


She could if she showed up w/your Avatar on her t-shirt...talk about scarey!

DA FOREHAND
Mar 1st, 2005, 08:57 PM
what???????? :eek:

Congratulations you have just won "the best joke of the year" prize! :lol: :lol: :lol:


Laugh if you will, I have Mary Carillo on tape relating a conversation she had W/BJK, talking about how spent so much time worrying about Steffi, and avoiding her.

tennislover
Mar 1st, 2005, 09:34 PM
Laugh if you will, I have Mary Carillo on tape relating a conversation she had W/BJK, talking about how spent so much time worrying about Steffi, and avoiding her.


yes, the entire universe wants to avoid Graf! :lol: :lol: :lol: ;)

j_dementieva27
Mar 1st, 2005, 09:40 PM
Elena Dementieva

1. Iva Majoli: 6-0
2. Lilia Osterloh: 5-0
3. Elena Bovina: 6-2
4. Daniela Hantuchova: 6-2
5. Chanda Rubin: 5-2

those are the top 5 that she has a commanding lead... then she has a lot more with 3-0 leads, some of them are players i have never heard of, so here are 5 more with some importance

6. Kristina Brandi: 3-0
7. Stephanie Cohen-Aloro: 3-0
8. Petra Mandula: 3-0
9. Magui Serna: 3-0
10. Katarina Srebotnik: 3-0

Pengwin
Mar 1st, 2005, 09:50 PM
Na Li is a newcomer but she has 1-0 over Garbin, Sugiyama, Jankovic, Penetta, Ruano Pascual and Washington

Calimero377
Mar 1st, 2005, 10:05 PM
kinda significant though that martina in the latest stage of her LONG career still went toe to toe with someone that people misguidedly call the greatest player of all time.


Navi was 5-1 H2H against young Graf in 85/86. Big deal.
When Graf had her great years in 87/89 and Navi still was by far the best player (with the exception of Graf of course .... :p ) Graf was 6-2. I don't call this toe-to-toe.

Only when Graf was slumping big-time in 91/93 Navi mananged a 2-2 H2H record. But 3 of those matches were on super-fast indoor carpet. Navi had a lot of luck that she could avoid Graf on clay or ReboundAce post-87 ....

Calimero377
Mar 1st, 2005, 10:10 PM
significant means meaningful or important, am i right?
it would be important to note that navratilova, playing in her twilight years was still able to beat steffi half the times they played right in the middle of steffi's career. ....

1985/86 Navi in the twilight and Graf right in the middle of her career?
Are you nuts?

Calimero377
Mar 1st, 2005, 10:16 PM
what???????? :eek:

Congratulations you have just won "the best joke of the year" prize! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Navi didn't play AO or FO post-88. She deliberately avoided 50 % of slam tournaments in 89-94. For 6 years!
Why?
Because she would have been belted by Graf!

I'm still sad that Zvereva beat Navi in FO 88 quarters. Imagine what Graf would have done with Martina in the final ....

Philbo
Mar 1st, 2005, 10:26 PM
Navi didn't play AO or FO post-88. She deliberately avoided 50 % of slam tournaments in 89-94. For 6 years!
Why?
Because she would have been belted by Graf!

I'm still sad that Zvereva beat Navi in FO 88 quarters. Imagine what Graf would have done with Martina in the final ....

Well you should be relieved that graf lost to Martina in the 91 US Semi's - Seles would have killed her in the final.

And the claim that Maritn avoided Graf has been PROVEN as bullshit by Andy T (who is really good at making you look stupid Cali - remember your bullshit thread about yearly winning %'s!! LMAO@ how he whupped your ass). Keep clutching at straws Sgt Schultz!

Philbo
Mar 1st, 2005, 10:28 PM
Navi was 5-1 H2H against young Graf in 85/86. Big deal.
When Graf had her great years in 87/89 and Navi still was by far the best player (with the exception of Graf of course .... :p ) Graf was 6-2. I don't call this toe-to-toe.

Only when Graf was slumping big-time in 91/93 Navi mananged a 2-2 H2H record. But 3 of those matches were on super-fast indoor carpet. Navi had a lot of luck that she could avoid Graf on clay or ReboundAce post-87 ....

Their last 4 matches, when Martina was 34-38 the head to ehad was 2-2.

They were EQUAL in the 90's,. YOu cannot hide from this fact and Graf will have to live with the shame of only being equal to Martina well into Martina's 30's!! Even Seles was able tog et the edge over Martina when Martina hit 30!! lol

tennislover
Mar 1st, 2005, 10:30 PM
Navi didn't play AO or FO post-88. She deliberately avoided 50 % of slam tournaments in 89-94. For 6 years!
Why?


because she was a (g-)"old" lady.... ;)

23TwentyThree23
Mar 1st, 2005, 10:53 PM
Just a few

Venus Williams:

4-0 vs Jennifer Capriati
6-2 vs Kim Clijsters
7-1 vs Justine Henin Hardenne
9-1 vs Monica Seles


Serena Williams:

10-4 vs Davenport
4-0 vs Dementieva
9-1 vs Mauresmo
7-1 vs Clijsters
7-5 vs Venus

those are actually very impressive statistics!:worship:

23TwentyThree23
Mar 1st, 2005, 10:55 PM
Navi didn't play AO or FO post-88. She deliberately avoided 50 % of slam tournaments in 89-94. For 6 years!
Why?
Because she would have been belted by Graf!

I'm still sad that Zvereva beat Navi in FO 88 quarters. Imagine what Graf would have done with Martina in the final ....

how could she have beaten martina any more that she did to poor natasha?!:sad:

tennislover
Mar 1st, 2005, 11:04 PM
how could she have beaten martina any more that she did to poor natasha?!:sad:

right!

poor natasha........ :sad:
we should charge Graf with cruelty against humanity ;)

Nacho
Mar 1st, 2005, 11:08 PM
some from Conchi's list

present players

M. Maleeva 11-1
A. Sugiyama 5-1
P. Schnyder 8-2
C. Rubin 9-3
J. Dokic 6-5
E. Dementieva 3-2
D. Hantuchova 3-2
N. Petrova 2-1
P. Suarez 2-0
L. Davenport 8-8

past players

A. Coetzer 15-3
N. Tauziat 8-2
J. Halard Decugis 8-2
N. Zvereva 8-4
K. Maleeva 7-1
Z. Garrison Jackson 6-1
S. Testud 6-2
K. Habsudova 6-2
A. Kournikova 5-3
I. Majoli 5-4
M.J. Fernandez 5-4
M. Navratilova 4-1
I. Spirlea 4-1
H. Sukova 4-2
B. Schultz McCarthy 4-2
B. Paulus 4-2
B. Schett 4-3
D. Van Roost 3-1

anabel
Mar 1st, 2005, 11:43 PM
Since Nacho posted Conchita's, i will post Arantxa's :):)

Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario leads Lindsay Davenport 7-5 :worship:
Amelie Mauresmo leads Arantxa Sanchez Vicario 2-1
Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario leads Serena Williams 4-3 :worship: :woohoo:
Venus Williams leads Arantxa Sanchez Vicario 6-3
Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario leads Jennifer Capriati 6-4 :worship:
Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario leads Justine Henin-Hardenne 1-0 :worship:

Becool
Mar 1st, 2005, 11:54 PM
S.Williams

5-1 vs Petrova
4-1 vs Seles
6-1 vs Schnyder
9-1 vs Mauresmo
3-0 vs Myskina
5-3 vs Henin

faboozadoo15
Mar 2nd, 2005, 12:25 AM
Laugh if you will, I have Mary Carillo on tape relating a conversation she had W/BJK, talking about how spent so much time worrying about Steffi, and avoiding her.
i also have mary carillo's opinion (during the 93 aus) on the head to head between monica and steffi in which she said:

"Monica can't beat Steffi if Steffi doesn't make the final. That's logic. Monica continues to dominate the slams whether or not she plays Graf. She's been beating, and easily, the players who have knocked Graf out. Steffi may have won twice last year in smaller events and three times early on, but Monica owns this matchup when it is important and should continue to do so. She's the stronger player. So enough about this 'head to head;' it's meaningless in my opinion."

faboozadoo15
Mar 2nd, 2005, 12:29 AM
:worship: the williams sisters are really commendable matchup players. serena has VERY few losing records to anyone, which is really impressive even though she doesn't play a whole lot. it will be interesting to see if she can keep this up the rest of her career: staying even or better with everyone.

lucashg
Mar 2nd, 2005, 01:01 AM
Justine Henin-Hardenne owns:
-- PLAYER -- H2H -- HIGHEST RANK --
- Elena Bovina 6-0 (#15)
- Nathalie Dechy 6-0 (#13)
- Elena Dementieva 6-1 (#4)
- Anna Kournikova 4-0 (#8)
- Svetlana Kuznetsova 5-1 (#4)
- Conchita Martinez 6-0 (#2)
- Anastasia Myskina 6-2 (#2)
- Nadia Petrova 5-1 (#6)
- Sarah Pitkowski-Malcor 4-0 (#29)
- Nicole Pratt 5-1 (#35)
- Patty Schnyder 4-0 (#8)
- Patricia Warstuch 4-0 (#65)

This is a list of all players Justine has a winning record with 4 or more victories of difference. All players listed in italic were/are top ten players. She also leads lots of players with 3 victories, such as Capriati, Farina-Elia and Schiavone.

Justine is owned solely by Venus Williams (1-7). Every other player that has a winning record against H² have no more than two victories of difference (Davenport, Montolio, Serna and S. Williams).

Serena!
Mar 2nd, 2005, 01:55 AM
Serena Williams

Kim Clijsters 7-1
Lindsay Davenport 10-4
Elena Dementieva 4-0
Amelie Mauresmo 9-1
Anastasia Myskina 4-0
Patty Schnyder 6-1
Tamarine Tanasugarn 6-0
Nathalie Dechy 5-0
Conchita Martinez 5-0

LDVTennis
Mar 2nd, 2005, 02:06 AM
i also have mary carillo's opinion (during the 93 aus) on the head to head between monica and steffi in which she said:

"Monica can't beat Steffi if Steffi doesn't make the final. That's logic. Monica continues to dominate the slams whether or not she plays Graf. She's been beating, and easily, the players who have knocked Graf out. Steffi may have won twice last year in smaller events and three times early on, but Monica owns this matchup when it is important and should continue to do so. She's the stronger player. So enough about this 'head to head;' it's meaningless in my opinion."

When it is important, huh? How about the '92 Wimbledon final? Can't think of a more important match than that. Seles wins it and she probably goes on to win all four majors in the same year. As we know, she won 3 out of 4 anyways.

Imagine how much stronger that would have made your case for Seles' superiority. But, it didn't happen. She was trounced by no other than Steffi Graf in the final.

As for Mary Carillo, can't trust a thing she ever said. Back then she was in Mark McCormacks back pocket. Mark was Monica's agent and founder of the very influential sports management agency, IMG. Mary had ties to Mark as a client of IMG Broadcasting and as a close friend of Besty Nagelsen (Mark's wife). So, of course, she was going to say whatever she had to to promote Seles, and by extension IMG.

Funny how alliances shift with time. Mark is dead. Seles failed to live up to expectations after her return. Steffi retired. But, instead of disappearing from the scene as everyone expected, the most popular figure in tennis Andre Agassi goes and falls in love with her. Damn that Steffi! She's just too lucky.

So, Mary whose job of course depends on getting as intimate with the top players as she can now takes every opportunity to suck up to Steffi Graf. Because like everyone else who wants contact with Andre, she's figured out that Steffi Graf holds the key to Andre's inner circle. Is it any surprise then that Mary has almost completely forgotten about Seles today and now has only the most complimentary things to say about Steffi? At last years TMC (Tennis Masters Cup) she even compared Federer's slice backhand to Steffi's.

This would all ring true, the comparison to Federer's slice backhand, except for the fact that Mary is also on record from '91 to '93 for criticizing Graf's reliance on the slice backhand. Back then, of course, such criticism served the purpose of promoting Seles over Graf. Now, that there is nothing to be gained by promoting Seles, the slice backhand is good enough to be compared to one hit by Roger Federer. I'd like to think that Mary is finally getting it. But, I know better.

Philbo
Mar 2nd, 2005, 02:15 AM
When it is important, huh? How about the '92 Wimbledon final? Can't think of a more important match than that. Seles wins it and she probably goes on to win all four majors in the same year. As we know, she won 3 out of 4 anyways.

Imagine how much stronger that would have made your case for Seles' superiority. But, it didn't happen. She was trounced by no other than Steffi Graf in the final.

As for Mary Carillo, can't trust a thing she ever said. Back then she was in Mark McCormacks back pocket. Mark was Monica's agent and founder of the very influential sports management agency, IMG. Mary had ties to Mark as a client of IMG Broadcasting and as a close friend of Besty Nagelsen (Mark's wife). So, of course, she was going to say whatever she had to to promote Seles, and by extension IMG.

Funny how alliances shift with time. Mark is dead. Seles failed to live up to expectations after her return. Steffi retired. But, instead of disappearing from the scene as everyone expected, the most popular figure in tennis Andre Agassi goes and falls in love with her. Damn that Steffi! She's just too lucky.

So, Mary whose job of course depends on getting as intimate with the top players as she can now takes every opportunity to suck up to Steffi Graf. Because like everyone else who wants contact with Andre, she's figured out that Steffi Graf holds the key to Andre's inner circle. Is it any surprise then that Mary has almost completely forgotten about Seles today and now has only the most complimentary things to say about Steffi? At last years TMC (Tennis Masters Cup) she even compared Federer's slice backhand to Steffi's.

This would all ring true, the comparison to Federer's slice backhand, except for the fact that Mary is also on record from '91 to '93 for criticizing Graf's reliance on the slice backhand. Back then, of course, such criticism served the purpose of promoting Seles over Graf. Now, that there is nothing to be gained by promoting Seles, the slice backhand is good enough to be compared to one hit by Roger Federer. I'd like to think that Mary is finally getting it. But, I know better.

Poor old LDV, anyone not subscribing to the train of thought that Steffi was a goddess must be motivated by things such as trying to get into certain players 'inner circle'.. Its that sort of cynicism that comes with being toooooo old and bitter.

Oh it must be so lonely in your insecure house built on fear and paranoia of anyone thinking someone other than Steffi graf has a claim to the title greatest ever. All you have for company is Cali lol..

faboozadoo15
Mar 2nd, 2005, 03:50 AM
:tape: what an unneeded post from ldv :haha:
someone posts something mary carillo said in effect to martina "avoiding" steffi, and i post something from the SAME commentator on how monica's head to head against steffi didn't make sense because steffi didn't even make it far enough (in tournaments monica dominated) to simply play monica.

all this "monica never beat steffi on a fast hardcourt" is a bunch of bullshit in my book. monica is a two time us open champion, a two time miami champion, and a 3 time masters champion. if steffi couldn't play well enough to even get to those finals (possibly out of fear of getting her ass kicked by monica) then there's no sense in holding it against monica that she didn't have the opportunity to play graf in these venues before a graf fan plunged a knife into her back.

Philbo
Mar 2nd, 2005, 04:15 AM
:tape: what an unneeded post from ldv :haha:
someone posts something mary carillo said in effect to martina "avoiding" steffi, and i post something from the SAME commentator on how monica's head to head against steffi didn't make sense because steffi didn't even make it far enough (in tournaments monica dominated) to simply play monica.

all this "monica never beat steffi on a fast hardcourt" is a bunch of bullshit in my book. monica is a two time us open champion, a two time miami champion, and a 3 time masters champion. if steffi couldn't play well enough to even get to those finals (possibly out of fear of getting her ass kicked by monica) then there's no sense in holding it against monica that she didn't have the opportunity to play graf in these venues before a graf fan plunged a knife into her back.

hallalelueah!! The truth has been spoken!:worship: :worship: :worship:

LDVTennis
Mar 2nd, 2005, 04:26 AM
all this "monica never beat steffi on a fast hardcourt" is a bunch of bullshit in my book. monica is a two time us open champion, a two time miami champion, and a 3 time masters champion. if steffi couldn't play well enough to even get to those finals (possibly out of fear of getting her ass kicked by monica) then there's no sense in holding it against monica that she didn't have the opportunity to play graf in these venues before a graf fan plunged a knife into her back.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Steffi was so scared of facing Seles in a match that from time to time she would lose in an earlier round so that she wouldn't have to face Seles.

So, if you actually believe this, what explains Steffi's appearance in the '92 Wimbledon Final? Successful therapy or transference? Medication?

The lengths some Seles fans will go to avoid the truth or to twist the facts so that it fits their picture of reality. Amazing.

The head to head record between Steffi and Monica, however, will show from now until eternity that Monica never beat Steffi on Grass, Carpets, and US hardcourts. Above all, it will show that the only "ass that was ever kicked" was Monica's in the 1992 Wimbledon Final.

As to what my post about Mary Carillo has to say about any of this, read Marcus Aurelius. Of each particular thing ask: What is it in itself? If you trust things whose nature you have never tried to undersand, then, it is your fault when under scrutiny those things turn out to be false.

LDVTennis
Mar 2nd, 2005, 04:33 AM
Poor old LDV, anyone not subscribing to the train of thought that Steffi was a goddess must be motivated by things such as trying to get into certain players 'inner circle'.. Its that sort of cynicism that comes with being toooooo old and bitter.

Oh it must be so lonely in your insecure house built on fear and paranoia of anyone thinking someone other than Steffi graf has a claim to the title greatest ever. All you have for company is Cali lol..[/size][/font]

"Tick Tock, Tick Tock"

--- Hannibal Lecter to Clarice Starling when she doesn't get what he is saying about the nature of things and appears to be wasting precious time.

Philbo
Mar 2nd, 2005, 04:51 AM
"Tick Tock, Tick Tock"

--- Hannibal Lecter to Clarice Starling when she doesn't get what he is saying about the nature of things and appears to be wasting precious time.


"What a load of bullshit"


- What my old football coach used to tell me when anyone on the team was speaking shit out their ass.

LDVTennis
Mar 2nd, 2005, 06:27 AM
Czechfan, if you were at all capable of reasonable dialogue, you and I could carry on a conversation like that which I and AndyT are having in another thread.

It has not gone unnoticed how you've gone missing in that thread. Now, why is that? Is it because you are allergic to reasonable conversation? Is it because you can't stand it when a poster you seem to respect and I reach a common understanding? Or, is it because you found it next to impossible to challenge the bare picture I painted of Martina?

Whatever the case, your tactics are by now so transparent to me. You go missing when the dialogue gets so complex rhetorically and conceptually that your own incompetence would reveal itself if you continued to participate. Or, you go missing when there isn't anyone else who will confirm your ad hominem attacks on others. (Where, for instance was Santorofan or faboozadoo15, when Alfa and AndyT showed up to lend the discussion I started some credibility?) When you do go missing, you predictably show up in other threads where you sense the dialogue is so underdeveloped by the poster or posters you don't like so that you can exert some false mastery with perfunctory refutations.

And, I am "bitter and old" according to you? Think again! Your very words and rhetorical actions tell us all we need to know about you.

DA FOREHAND
Mar 2nd, 2005, 02:31 PM
Well you should be relieved that graf lost to Martina in the 91 US Semi's - Seles would have killed her in the final.

And the claim that Maritn avoided Graf has been PROVEN as bullshit by Andy T (who is really good at making you look stupid Cali - remember your bullshit thread about yearly winning %'s!! LMAO@ how he whupped your ass). Keep clutching at straws Sgt Schultz!


YOu're a hoot! Monica never beat STEFFI on any fast surface ....EVER

Calimero377
Mar 2nd, 2005, 06:46 PM
Well you should be relieved that graf lost to Martina in the 91 US Semi's - Seles would have killed her in the final. ...



You think that a Graf who beat Superseles twice some months before USO 91 (once with 6-4, 6-3 on hardcourt) would have lost to a player who barely squeaked past a 15-year-old girl in the other semi?
You believe in Santa Claus, do you, Chokerfan? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


....
And the claim that Maritn avoided Graf has been PROVEN as bullshit by Andy T (who is really good at making you look stupid Cali - remember your bullshit thread about yearly winning %'s!! LMAO@ how he whupped your ass). Keep clutching at straws Sgt Schultz!

My "yearly winning thread" about the last 20 years with at least 45 matches a year for each player?
What was wrong about that?

BTW, who is this "Sgt Schultz"? A buddy of your's in the Australian army?
"Sgt" is "Sergeant" ... ?

Calimero377
Mar 2nd, 2005, 06:55 PM
Their last 4 matches, when Martina was 34-38 the head to ehad was 2-2.

They were EQUAL in the 90's,. YOu cannot hide from this fact and Graf will have to live with the shame of only being equal to Martina well into Martina's 30's!! Even Seles was able tog et the edge over Martina when Martina hit 30!! lol


Sabby was 8-4 against Graf in 90-92, Seles 4-3 in 90-93.

Your point being?

Calimero377
Mar 2nd, 2005, 06:57 PM
right!

poor natasha........ :sad:
we should charge Graf with cruelty against humanity ;)


Navi would have won 2 games maximum ....

:wavey:


(But I don't know how - to be honest ....)

Calimero377
Mar 2nd, 2005, 07:03 PM
i also have mary carillo's opinion (during the 93 aus) on the head to head between monica and steffi in which she said:

"Monica can't beat Steffi if Steffi doesn't make the final. That's logic. Monica continues to dominate the slams whether or not she plays Graf. She's been beating, and easily, the players who have knocked Graf out. Steffi may have won twice last year in smaller events and three times early on, but Monica owns this matchup when it is important and should continue to do so. She's the stronger player. So enough about this 'head to head;' it's meaningless in my opinion."


Steffi didn' win twice "last year" in smaller events.
But she won 6-2, 6-1 in the biggest event of them all. The most crushing defeat ever for a #1 player in a slam final. Seles has a record there that probably never will be broken. :lol:
And Steffi won the next two slam finals (post-AO93) against Seles as well ....

:wavey:

Calimero377
Mar 2nd, 2005, 07:06 PM
Poor old LDV, anyone not subscribing to the train of thought that Steffi was a goddess must be motivated by things such as trying to get into certain players 'inner circle'.. Its that sort of cynicism that comes with being toooooo old and bitter.

Oh it must be so lonely in your insecure house built on fear and paranoia of anyone thinking someone other than Steffi graf has a claim to the title greatest ever. All you have for company is Cali lol..


No.
He has the majority of tennis fans as company ...

:worship:

Calimero377
Mar 2nd, 2005, 07:11 PM
....

all this "monica never beat steffi on a fast hardcourt" is a bunch of bullshit in my book. monica is a two time us open champion, a two time miami champion, and a 3 time masters champion. ...


What about

"Steffi is a FIVE time USO champion, a FIVE time Key Biscayne champion, a FIVE time Masters champion, and leads Seles 3-0 (THREE vs. ZERO) on fast hardcourts (Seles was WTA #1 in all three matches"

didn't sink in, fabooby?

Calimero377
Mar 2nd, 2005, 07:13 PM
"What a load of bullshit"


- What my old football coach used to tell me when anyone on the team was speaking shit out their ass.


"Anyone on the team".

I can imagine which single person of your team was meant by this ...

:lol:

DA FOREHAND
Mar 2nd, 2005, 07:38 PM
guess i miss titled this thread...it was meant to list top ten ranked players your fav has a favorable h2h with.

R&J
Mar 2nd, 2005, 07:40 PM
What about

"Steffi is a FIVE time USO champion, a FIVE time Key Biscayne champion, a FIVE time Masters champion, and leads Seles 3-0 (THREE vs. ZERO) on fast hardcourts (Seles was WTA #1 in all three matches"

didn't sink in, fabooby?

What about

"Only took Monica 1 year to win a Grand Slam and won 9 titles in her 2nd year as a pro player. How many years did it take Steffi to win a GS?
How many titles did Steffi win during her first year on the tour?

"Monica over took Graf as the number 1 player. Sabatini tried...... many players tried, but couldnt.......But Monica did.
And it really didnt take her long before she was beating Graf." ;)

"Steffi over took Martina Navratilova to become the player who won most of the Grand Slams - but Seles jumped on the tour and over took both of them in such a short time."

"How about Graf only regained the Grand Slam winning tennis she had before, only after Seles was taken out of the game."

No one has won as much and as fast as Monica did......not even Steffi.


didnt sink in, Cali?

R&J
Mar 2nd, 2005, 07:47 PM
Just for you Cali....

Cliff Drysdale: "Seles played fifteen tournaments last year, she won ten of them. Tremendous record from #1 Monica Seles, and yet she's not that far in front of Steffi Graf."

Mary Carillo: "Well, she should be Cliff. That's just the ranking system, even Steffi admits that. You cant tell me that a woman whos won three out of the four grand slams in each of the last two years should be in danger of losing her Number One spot, thats ridiculous!" (1993)

CooCooCachoo
Mar 2nd, 2005, 07:48 PM
Carly Gullickson:

Emptiness.

Pengwin
Mar 2nd, 2005, 07:51 PM
What about

"Only took Monica 1 year to win a Grand Slam and won 9 titles in her first year a pro player. How many years did it take Steffi to win a GS?
How many titles did Steffi win during her first year on the tour?

"Monica over took Graf as the number 1 player. Sabatini tried...... many players tried, but couldnt.......But Monica did.
And it really didnt take her long before she was beating Graf." ;)

"Steffi over took Martina Navratilova to become the player who won most of the Grand Slams - but Seles jumped on the tour and over took both of them in such a short time."

"How about Graf only regained the Grand Slam winning tennis she had before, only after Seles was taken out of the game."

No one has won as much and as fast as Monica did......not even Steffi.


didnt sink in, Cali?


:worship:

Seles is and will always be the most talented player of all time.

Too bad something happened to her :(

Graf fans should always remember this when describing how great she is.

DA FOREHAND
Mar 2nd, 2005, 07:52 PM
What about

"Only took Monica 1 year to win a Grand Slam and won 9 titles in her first year a pro player. How many years did it take Steffi to win a GS?
How many titles did Steffi win during her first year on the tour?

"Monica over took Graf as the number 1 player. Sabatini tried...... many players tried, but couldnt.......But Monica did.
And it really didnt take her long before she was beating Graf." ;)

"Steffi over took Martina Navratilova to become the player who won most of the Grand Slams - but Seles jumped on the tour and over took both of them in such a short time."

"How about Graf only regained the Grand Slam winning tennis she had before, only after Seles was taken out of the game."

No one has won as much and as fast as Monica did......not even Steffi.


didnt sink in, Cali?


It's not how you start, but how you end.
Martina Hingis had a great start to here career, only to slowly fade and into the Swiss Alps. :sad:

Martina Navratilova, was a blubbering crying mess for a few years before she went on to become one of the all time greats :worship:

Pengwin
Mar 2nd, 2005, 07:55 PM
It's not how you start, but how you end.
Martina Hingis had a great start to here career, only to slowly fade and into the Swiss Alps. :sad:

Martina Navratilova, was a blubbering crying mess for a few years before she went on to become one of the all time greats :worship:


That's irrelevant, what matters in this point is that Seles started off AMAZINGLY but just as she was about to become super-duper-amazing, she was STABBED.

DA FOREHAND
Mar 2nd, 2005, 07:57 PM
:worship:

Seles is and will always be the most talented player of all time.

Too bad something happened to her :(

Graf fans should always remember this when describing how great she is.


Really you think that? She's a pretty one dimensional player, that one dimension was great, but still not mutli faceted.

Great forehand, great backhand, so so serve, basic volleying skills, good overhead.

If we graded ea. shot on a point system 1-10, I could easily rattle off ten players who's overall total would be higher than Monica's

Pengwin
Mar 2nd, 2005, 08:00 PM
Really you think that? She's a pretty one dimensional player, that one dimension was great, but still not mutli faceted.

Great forehand, great backhand, so so serve, basic volleying skills, good overhead.

If we graded ea. shot on a point system 1-10, I could easily rattle off ten players who's overall total would be higher than Monica's

Seles:

Forehand: 10
Backhand: 10
Serve: 7
Volley & Overhead: 9

Graf (trying to be fair):

Forehand: 9
Backhand: 2
Serve: 9
Volley & Overhead: 1

faboozadoo15
Mar 2nd, 2005, 08:06 PM
YOu're a hoot! Monica never beat STEFFI on any fast surface ....EVER
it's hard to beat steffi when monica was unable to play her in any big tournament other than wimbledon. martina snuck past steffi, and monica totally outplayed her in the final. jennifer vs monica was the real final, with all due respect to martina. we can name scenario after scenario where graf was bounced out of a tournament before she would have played seles on a fast court. thing is, right in the middle of steffi's career, monica was winning every fast court title except wimbledon where she made the final after only playing the tournament three times (a better record than almost anyone EVER).

R&J
Mar 2nd, 2005, 08:08 PM
It's not how you start, but how you end.

That sounds like an opinion ;) Well maybe for you that is what you like about players - but that doesnt go for everybody.
I like Monica for more reasons then for what she won :wavey:
Although 53 titles and 9 Grand Slams is good enough for me and many fans :kiss: just because she didnt get to go on through 93 without the stabbing happening and REALLY get to prove what she could have done if her momentum hadnt been sabotaged - she is still fantastic in my opinion...and to many others as well.

R&J
Mar 2nd, 2005, 08:18 PM
:worship:

Seles is and will always be the most talented player of all time.

Too bad something happened to her :(

Graf fans should always remember this when describing how great she is.

Well some do. But some dont want to. Some dont want to acknowlenge that the stabbing did sideline Monica off her momentum. Because if it wasnt for Monica, Graf really would have had a clear easy way through her career. But Monica was really the only hicup in Graf's career. So if they can just act like Monica never happened or to make the stabbing seem less, maybe no one will remember that a mad man stopped Monica, not Graf.

DA FOREHAND
Mar 2nd, 2005, 08:25 PM
Steffi stopped Monica 10 of 15 times....and 6 of 10 times before the stabbing.

Monica was and is a great champion, and she is talented..

Most talented and greatest ever? NO

Calimero377
Mar 2nd, 2005, 08:25 PM
What about

"Only took Monica 1 year to win a Grand Slam and won 9 titles in her first year a pro player. ...

didnt sink in, Cali?


The part that Seles played her first tournament on the tour in March 1988 and won her first slam more than 2 years later.


What about

...
"Monica over took Graf as the number 1 player. Sabatini tried...... many players tried, but couldnt.......But Monica did. ...

didnt sink in, Cali?


That ASV and Hingis overtook Graf as the number 1 player as well but that Graf has a huge lead against ASV, Hingis and Seles H2H nevertheless.


What about

...
"Steffi over took Martina Navratilova to become the player who won most of the Grand Slams - but Seles jumped on the tour and over took both of them in such a short time." ...

didnt sink in, Cali?

That Graf overtook Navi in winning slams but that Seles never overtook Graf.


What about

...
"How about Graf only regained the Grand Slam winning tennis she had before, only after Seles was taken out of the game." ...

didnt sink in, Cali?

That Graf overtook Seles again twice in 1991 and that she fought off Seles in 1995 & 1996 to defend her #1.


What about

...
No one has won as much and as fast as Monica did......not even Steffi.

didnt sink in, Cali?

That Hingis won more and faster than Seles (3 slams and #1 spot as a 16-year-old). And that Hingis won her last slam with just 18, Seles with just 22 - but that Graf won 21 slam at an older age than Hingis and 12 slams at an older age than Seles. And that Hingis/Seles will only be a footnote in the history book of tennis.

Pengwin
Mar 2nd, 2005, 08:28 PM
The part that Seles played her first tournament on the tour in March 1988 and won her first slam more than 2 years later.

... blahblahblah
...an older age than Hingis and 12 slams at an older age than Seles. And that Hingis/Seles will only be a footnote in the history book of tennis.


You're still not ackknowledging the fact that Seles was better than Graf when she was stabbed, and was robbed of God knows how many Grand Slams.

G-Ha
Mar 2nd, 2005, 08:29 PM
Seles:

Forehand: 10
Backhand: 10
Serve: 7
Volley & Overhead: 9

Graf (trying to be fair):

Forehand: 9
Backhand: 2
Serve: 9
Volley & Overhead: 1

OMG, this is hysterical! :lol: Thanks for the laugh! You rate Monica's forehand above the greatest forehand the game ever saw?! And I'm not sure why you combined volley with overhead as they are two different shots, but Steffi gets a 1 there and a 2 for backhand? Have you ever even seen Steffi play? Better yet, based on your ratings, have you ever even seen Monica play?

Steffi's average score on your scale comes to 5.25 out of 10...a failing grade. You're not actually intending for people to take you seriously, are you?

And no need for the false pretense of "(trying to be fair)" when clearly you're not capable of being such with Steffi.

Calimero377
Mar 2nd, 2005, 08:31 PM
Just for you Cali....

Cliff Drysdale: "Seles played fifteen tournaments last year, she won ten of them. Tremendous record from #1 Monica Seles, and yet she's not that far in front of Steffi Graf."

Mary Carillo: "Well, she should be Cliff. That's just the ranking system, even Steffi admits that. You cant tell me that a woman whos won three out of the four grand slams in each of the last two years should be in danger of losing her Number One spot, thats ridiculous!" (1993)


Carillo was on the IMG bandwagon in 1993.
If she would be honest she would admit that a player who holds 3 slam titles of course must be in danger to lose her #1 spot if the player who holds the remaining one takes away one of those 3 slams (provided that both players had the same success in non-slam tournaments). That's no rocket science.

Graf didn't take away Seles' FO title in 92 because she lost the deciding set 8-10. That was the difference between both players. 8-10 ...

Calimero377
Mar 2nd, 2005, 08:36 PM
:worship:

Seles is and will always be the most talented player of all time.

Too bad something happened to her :(

Graf fans should always remember this when describing how great she is.


You attribute the fact that Seles won CanO 95 (her first tournament post-Stabbing), reached USO 95 final and won AO 96 - but didn't win a slam for the next 9 years to a Stabbing (1-cm wound that needed only one stitch to close) in spring of 93 that caused "post-traumatic stress syndrome" in spring 96 and thereafter?
Interesting theory.
Please elaborate ...

:haha: :haha: :haha:

Calimero377
Mar 2nd, 2005, 08:40 PM
That's irrelevant, what matters in this point is that Seles started off AMAZINGLY but just as she was about to become super-duper-amazing, she was STABBED.


Graf had FIVE years that were better than Seles best year ever.
Not very "super-duper", your Seles ...

Calimero377
Mar 2nd, 2005, 08:43 PM
That sounds like an opinion ;) Well maybe for you that is what you like about players - but that doesnt go for everybody.
I like Monica for more reasons then for what she won :wavey:
Although 53 titles and 9 Grand Slams is good enough for me and many fans :kiss: just because she didnt get to go on through 93 without the stabbing happening and REALLY get to prove what she could have done if her momentum hadnt been sabotaged - she is still fantastic in my opinion...and to many others as well.


Really great players rebound after their momentum has been interrupted.
Graf did so multiple times. Seles didn't.
That's the difference.

Calimero377
Mar 2nd, 2005, 08:46 PM
Well some do. But some dont want to. Some dont want to acknowlenge that the stabbing did sideline Monica off her momentum. Because if it wasnt for Monica, Graf really would have had a clear easy way through her career. But Monica was really the only hicup in Graf's career. So if they can just act like Monica never happened or to make the stabbing seem less, maybe no one will remember that a mad man stopped Monica, not Graf.


The main hicup in Graf's career was the 1990 Graf scandal. Seles took over more than a year later only. No wonder - she was the second best player at that time.

Pengwin
Mar 2nd, 2005, 08:47 PM
Really great players rebound after their momentum has been interrupted.
Graf did so multiple times. Seles didn't.
That's the difference.

Did Graf exeperience anything even in the same BALLPARK as Seles?

Nooooo...

Calimero377
Mar 2nd, 2005, 08:51 PM
You're still not ackknowledging the fact that Seles was better than Graf when she was stabbed, and was robbed of God knows how many Grand Slams.


ASV was better and Hingis were better than Graf at some time in Graf's career. Same with Seles.
But Graf is 28-8 vs. ASV, 7-2 vs. Hingis and 10-5 vs. Seles career-wise.
And Graf has 7 Wimbledons whereas Hingis has one and ASV & Seles ZERO each.

I don't think that Seles was robbed of many slams considering her success record in slams from February 1996 until February 2005 ......

Two successful years (when the greatest-ever was slumping) and 9 bleak years - 2 vs. 9 years ....

Philbo
Mar 2nd, 2005, 08:52 PM
LDV - Keep crying in your milk mate, ive tried going the 'high ground' with you, giving you your 'reasonable' dialogue but you keep acting like the biggest hypocrite Ive ever come across on here, and as a result I have no interest in 'reasonable dialogue' with such a phoney as yourself..

Calimero377
Mar 2nd, 2005, 08:53 PM
Did Graf exeperience anything even in the same BALLPARK as Seles?

Nooooo...


Don't overestimate a 1-cm wound that could be closed with a single stitch ...

Orion
Mar 2nd, 2005, 08:59 PM
Oh, lord. Another thread like this. Steffi is/was the best singles player of all time. Monica had the opportunity, but her career was interrupted. Regardless, what happened HAPPENED. There's no way to predict who would have done what in the following few years. Steffi cannot be blamed for winning everything in those years, and Monica cannot be blamed for not returning. Monica cannot realistically be considered the greatest ever, because she didn't have the chance to be considered the greatest ever. No matter what someones personal opinion on the brilliance that is Monica Seles's style of play, she is not a legitimate candidate. This is not her fault, but it is still true. Someday, we should actually have a productive discussion instead of rattling off the same old facts that EVERYONE has heard thousands of times. For instance, would someone, in kind, uninflammatory words, please explain their thoughts on Monica Seles victory in the '92 US Open, and her victories over Capriati and Navratilova? Or, would someon, in kind, uninflammatory words, please explain their opinion on the usefulness of Steffi Graf's backhand as an offensive weapon? I swear, this is like teaching my children to say please and thank you. At least a few of you learned good manners from your parents, but the rest of you, kindly grow up. It will make everyones message board experience SO much nicer, pleasanter, and perhaps even (gasp) educational. Everyone has their favorites, but there's no reason to be rude about it.

R&J
Mar 2nd, 2005, 09:00 PM
The main hicup in Graf's career was the 1990 Graf scandal. Seles took over more than a year later only. No wonder - she was the second best player at that time.

Cali, you sound more stupid everyday. Keep it up dumbo (as you seem to call everyone else) ;)

R&J
Mar 2nd, 2005, 09:03 PM
Don't overestimate a 1-cm wound that could be closed with a single stitch ...

See, now this is a perfect example. Trying to make it seem that even though it wasnt a deep wound, you try and make it seem like it didnt matter, and it did.

Orion
Mar 2nd, 2005, 09:06 PM
Don't overestimate a 1-cm wound that could be closed with a single stitch ...

I think what he was trying to express, albeit poorly communicated and rudely, is that the stabbing of Seles made her think that people were willing to not only wish bodily harm, but cause bodily harm to her simply because she was a very good player. A lot of players have threats, but I think Monica was the first player that somebody actually acted on. That made her question a lot of things. For example, simply for being good at her job, she could be stabbed. It doesn't matter how small the wound was, the psychological impact was there.
Steffi also dealt with some weighty things. But, I don't think that they are comparable because it wasn't bodily harm simply for being a great player. Steffi dealt with the damage of public humiliation very well, but her coping was for very different circumstances. While it is fair to say that Graf had her share of difficulty, I have trouble believing that they can be compared with one another as hurdles for both players to face.

Calimero377
Mar 2nd, 2005, 09:08 PM
See, now this is a perfect example. Trying to make it seem that even though it wasnt a deep wound, you try and make it seem like it didnt matter, and it did.


Of course it mattered.
Seles couldn't play FO and Wim 93.

Calimero377
Mar 2nd, 2005, 09:11 PM
I think what he was trying to express, albeit poorly communicated and rudely, is that the stabbing of Seles made her think that people were willing to not only wish bodily harm, but cause bodily harm to her simply because she was a very good player. A lot of players have threats, but I think Monica was the first player that somebody actually acted on. That made her question a lot of things. For example, simply for being good at her job, she could be stabbed. It doesn't matter how small the wound was, the psychological impact was there.
Steffi also dealt with some weighty things. But, I don't think that they are comparable because it wasn't bodily harm simply for being a great player. Steffi dealt with the damage of public humiliation very well, but her coping was for very different circumstances. While it is fair to say that Graf had her share of difficulty, I have trouble believing that they can be compared with one another as hurdles for both players to face.

You may have got a point here.
My point is that if we allow Seles to make a 2.25-year-long break in 93/95 than we must allow Graf to play bad tennis for 2.25 years in 90/92.

R&J
Mar 2nd, 2005, 09:11 PM
Two successful years (when the greatest-ever was slumping) and 9 bleak years - 2 vs. 9 years ....

You are such a joke. Making excuses for Steffi during the days when Monica was #1? Woulda coulda shoulda, you are no better Cali.

Graf would have been #1 if Monica wasnt around - but fortunately Monica did come around and pushed Graf down to second place for 2 1/2 years before the stabbing happened. Monica was the only one who could do that.

R&J
Mar 2nd, 2005, 09:13 PM
than we must allow Graf to play bad tennis for 2.25 years in 90/92.

She was playing bad tennis because Monica was around. But you just cant bring yourself to admit that, cause you are a freak!

DA FOREHAND
Mar 2nd, 2005, 09:17 PM
She was playing bad tennis because Monica was around. But you just cant bring yourself to admit that, cause you are a freak!
yes Steffi still managed to beat Seles 6 out of ten matches...odd how that worked out ey?

Calimero377
Mar 2nd, 2005, 09:21 PM
She was playing bad tennis because Monica was around. But you just cant bring yourself to admit that, cause you are a freak!


In 91/92 (Seles' two best years) Graf was 3-1 vs. Seles but 2-6 vs. Sabby ...

Orion
Mar 2nd, 2005, 09:21 PM
You may have got a point here.
My point is that if we allow Seles to make a 2.25-year-long break in 93/95 than we must allow Graf to play bad tennis for 2.25 years in 90/92.

But, Monica made the choice to stay out of the WTA for those years to reevaluate what she was doing with her career. Steffi chose to stay playing. If Graf had chosen to take two and a quarter years off, I could believe that the psychological impact of her family matters was damaging enough to force her off the tour. But she chose to continue, despite the difficulties. Strong woman and I applaud her for staying and giving us some memorable matches, but I don't think that's quite a fair comparison when Graf played on the tour badly, and Seles did not play on the tour at all.

Calimero377
Mar 2nd, 2005, 09:24 PM
But, Monica made the choice to stay out of the WTA for those years to reevaluate what she was doing with her career. Steffi chose to stay playing. If Graf had chosen to take two and a quarter years off, I could believe that the psychological impact of her family matters was damaging enough to force her off the tour. But she chose to continue, despite the difficulties. Strong woman and I applaud her for staying and giving us some memorable matches, but I don't think that's quite a fair comparison when Graf played on the tour badly, and Seles did not play on the tour at all.


And Seles chose to play again from 1995 until 2003. Rabid Selesians excuse her failure in those years with a 1-cm stabbing wound in 1993 ... :eek:

Orion
Mar 2nd, 2005, 09:25 PM
In 91/92 (Seles' two best years) Graf was 3-1 vs. Seles but 2-6 vs. Sabby ...

Now that's the friendly, interesting, and valid posting I like to see! Something we may not have seen before, posted in a relevant, kind, educational manner, not a derogatory, rude, offensive manner! Kudos.

Calimero377
Mar 2nd, 2005, 09:27 PM
Now that's the friendly, interesting, and valid posting I like to see! Something we may not have seen before, posted in a relevant, kind, educational manner, not a derogatory, rude, offensive manner! Kudos.


With certain posters you have to be rude to be educational ... ;)

Orion
Mar 2nd, 2005, 09:31 PM
I disagree. I think being friendly is far more helpful. Because if they like you, they are more likely to listen to you!

Philbo
Mar 2nd, 2005, 10:17 PM
its so funny reading Cali try and claim graf would have been back 2 months after the stabbing without any residual effect of the stabbing.

The pathetic fool uses Daddy graf fucking strippers and cheating on taxes as an excuse for Steffi slipping to the 2nd best on tour in the early 90's. but cannot fathom the stabbing having any emotional effect.

Ladies and Gentleman, welcome to the fucked up world of being a Grafanatic!!

Population - LDV and Cali and a few other wannabe's!!

faboozadoo15
Mar 2nd, 2005, 10:33 PM
yes Steffi still managed to beat Seles 6 out of ten matches...odd how that worked out ey?
well half her wins came in 1989, monica's first year as a professional tennis player.... :rolleyes:

Calimero377
Mar 2nd, 2005, 10:33 PM
..... (Calimero) uses Daddy graf fucking strippers and cheating on taxes as an excuse for Steffi slipping to the 2nd best on tour in the early 90's. ....

I never even mentioned taxes in relation to Graf's slump in the early 90ies (the tax scandal broke in August 1995).
What I did mention indeed was a high-profile blackmail scandal in 1990/92 that shook the whole Graf family to the core (because it was splashed out in the tabloids every day) and that almost made Steffi retire in winter 91 because she couldn't stand the media hunt anymore.

Hey, not everybody can be a tough cookie like Supermoni ...

faboozadoo15
Mar 2nd, 2005, 10:36 PM
In 91/92 (Seles' two best years) Graf was 3-1 vs. Seles but 2-6 vs. Sabby ...
monica's best year could very well have been 1993. she was playing quite well then. monica also played okay in 1990, beating graf twice, once in her FIRST grand slam final... and in straight sets.

Calimero377
Mar 2nd, 2005, 10:37 PM
well half her wins came in 1989, monica's first year as a professional tennis player.... :rolleyes:

And the Monica's best years ever (91 & 92) Graf led Seles 3-1 H2H.
Two of those 4 matches were two-setters. Graf won both.

faboozadoo15
Mar 2nd, 2005, 10:41 PM
And the Monica's best years ever (91 & 92) Graf led Seles 3-1 H2H.
Two of those 4 matches were two-setters. Graf won both.
why are you discluding 1993. clearly monica was the best player in the world in 1993.
why disclude monica's 1990? it was when she started winning slams and had a great year, winning the french open and the year end championships.

Calimero377
Mar 2nd, 2005, 10:43 PM
monica's best year could very well have been 1993. she was playing quite well then. ....


Woulda-coulda.

Seles would not have won a single match against Graf in the early 90ies without the 90/92 blackmail scandal. Graf would have had about 5 or 6 slams more.
And without her injuries from 93 until 99 Graf would have won another 4-7 additional slams. And two more Grand Slams (95 & 96).
Without her injuries she would have continued to play post-99 (Navi played until 37). Add another 4-6 slams.
If we add everything Graf well could have won 35+ slams (and 3 Grand Slams, probably a 2nd Golden Grand Slam in 1996).

It was not meant to be ...
:sad:

Calimero377
Mar 2nd, 2005, 10:47 PM
why are you discluding 1993. clearly monica was the best player in the world in 1993.
why disclude monica's 1990? it was when she started winning slams and had a great year, winning the french open and the year end championships.


Seles was stabbed in 1993 before the grass court, hard court and indoor season started (Seles never ever beat Graf on those surfaces).

In 1990 Graf was clearly the best player (leading Seles at year's end with a bigger margin in the WTA rankings than Seles ever had in 91/93).

91/92 were two complete years when both fought for the #1 spot.

faboozadoo15
Mar 2nd, 2005, 10:48 PM
omG... and people wonder why there's frustration... :rolleyes:

for the record, in response to me pointing out that monica was still #1 in 93 and had JUST beaten grad for the third time in a grand slam final

calimero replies

"woulda- coula"

about the year where monica was stabbed. i can understand people getting angry with seles fans for speculating how many slams monica would have won in 95, but it is far from "out there" to say that monica was still quite easily the dominant player on tour in 93. there was nothing stopping her.

faboozadoo15
Mar 2nd, 2005, 10:50 PM
91/92 were two complete years when both fought for the #1 spot.
and who came out on top of that fight? seles
who was still in front going into the clay season in 93? seles

please, spare me san antonio and berlin... :rolleyes: at the end of the day, only you will remember those.

Knizzle
Mar 2nd, 2005, 10:54 PM
oh boy, another Graf/Seles debating thread. :lol:

Philbo
Mar 2nd, 2005, 11:18 PM
I never even mentioned taxes in relation to Graf's slump in the early 90ies (the tax scandal broke in August 1995).
What I did mention indeed was a high-profile blackmail scandal in 1990/92 that shook the whole Graf family to the core (because it was splashed out in the tabloids every day) and that almost made Steffi retire in winter 91 because she couldn't stand the media hunt anymore.

Hey, not everybody can be a tough cookie like Supermoni ...

Oh Booo Hooo, waaa waaa waaaa..

Big deal that they got blackmailed.

Newflash claimero - every player has had emotional hardsips off the court to deal with. If Graf wasnt mentally tough enough to deal with it - thats a mark against her greatness..

All the top players have had to deal with nasty tabloid stories, thats no excuse for Graf to be losing to players during that period - her game just went through a low period like Navrat in 88, 89...

Tell your sob story to someone who cares.

Philbo
Mar 2nd, 2005, 11:20 PM
Poor old Steffi - a nasty story in the tabloids.. That justifies her losing to the likes of Lori McNeil, Gabriela (I dont have a serve) Sabatini, Coetzer etc..

Pathetic.

Noone had more to deal with from the tabloids than martina, your own excuses just get more and more pathetic.

LDVTennis
Mar 2nd, 2005, 11:42 PM
LDV - Keep crying in your milk mate, ive tried going the 'high ground' with you, giving you your 'reasonable' dialogue but you keep acting like the biggest hypocrite Ive ever come across on here, and as a result I have no interest in 'reasonable dialogue' with such a phoney as yourself..

You've assumed that I want to have a "reasonable" conversation with you. You've assumed incorrectly.

My only objective now is to annoy you as much as I can and to incite you whenever possible.

Look who took the bait!

Philbo
Mar 2nd, 2005, 11:56 PM
[QUOTE=LDVTennis]You've assumed that I want to have a "reasonable" conversation with you. You've assumed incorrectly.
[QUOTE]

Well at least we agree on something my feminine friend. (not that theres anything WRONG with that lol):lol: :lol:

Now Go back to sipping your chardonnay and listening to Streisand! lol

R&J
Mar 3rd, 2005, 12:57 AM
I never even mentioned taxes in relation to Graf's slump in the early 90ies (the tax scandal broke in August 1995).
What I did mention indeed was a high-profile blackmail scandal in 1990/92 that shook the whole Graf family to the core (because it was splashed out in the tabloids every day) and that almost made Steffi retire in winter 91 because she couldn't stand the media hunt anymore.

Hey, not everybody can be a tough cookie like Supermoni ...

Oh hell then, lets just bring out the fact that Monica had migrains to deal with, her dad dying of cancer, and you not going to jail. How about that?! :rolleyes:

This Seles / Graf debate will never end ;)

Brooks.
Mar 3rd, 2005, 01:23 AM
its funny how calimero says all this crap about how monica would have never beaten steffi in the early 90's if not for the blackmail scandal..........um i'm pretty sure that steffi would disagree with that considering she isnt crazy like cali.....then again she would probably think calimero was insane as well so...

Philbo
Mar 3rd, 2005, 01:45 AM
Oh hell then, lets just bring out the fact that Monica had migrains to deal with, her dad dying of cancer, and you not going to jail. How about that?! :rolleyes:

This Seles / Graf debate will never end ;)


Absolutely.. Its the funniest, most amusing of all Calimero's inconsistencies/hypocrisy - Monica doesnt get to use the stabbing as an 'excuse' as to why she was never the same player, yet Graf having a few articles written in tabloids about her is enough to explain away, and JUSTIFY a 2-3 year long slump..

Its a joke to anyone with any amount of common sense - even his # 1 supporter LDV disagrees with that theory, but when you're dealin with a grafantic such as Cali, common sense and logic are pretty much unheard of.

LDVTennis
Mar 3rd, 2005, 01:57 AM
She was playing bad tennis because Monica was around. But you just cant bring yourself to admit that, cause you are a freak!

Steffi was not playing bad tennis because Monica was around. Steffi was playing bad tennis, period.

By 1991, Steffi's game had become predictable. This was not by design, since her two best shots (forehand and backhand slice) have always had the potential for a lot of variety. This was due to the inability of herself and her coaches to explore new strategies. Hence, by 1991, Steffi had settled into a very readable shot pattern. She was hitting a majority of her shots, both slice backhands and inside-out forehands, to the AD court.

If I had been coaching against her in those years, I would have advised Seles or any other player to do just what Seles' coaches told her to do. Camp out in the AD corner. Feed her a few balls to her favored spot on the court, the backhand corner, and wait for a ball to the AD court that you can hit down the line. You could have bet the house in those years that Steffi was going to hit the ball back to you in the AD corner at least 95% of the time. Stubborn as she was, Steffi hardly saw what was happening. I am almost certain that when she went back and examined her few losses to Seles in those years she actually thought it was due to the fact that she wasn't hitting her inside-out forehand well enough.

Now, this strategy didn't always work. It had less of a chance of working when it was a fast surface and when Steffi was hitting her slice backhand really well to Seles' forehand. You see on fast surfaces Steffi could always rely on her atleticism to overcome the consequences of most of her bad decisions on the court. Moreover, when Steffi could breakdown Seles' lesser shot, the forehand, with her slice, Seles really couldn't implement the strategy I outlined above.

In 1992, Steffi began working with Heinz Gunthardt. I wish I knew exactly when he joined the team, if it was before or after the 1992 Wimbledon Final. Whatever the case, Heinz had already figured out what the problem was. This is evident from the steps he took to solve it and what remarkable changes there were in the Graf game from late '93 to '99. In searching the net for the date when Steffi began working with Heinz, I happened to come across this statement by Steffi on what Heinz had meant to her game: "I would say that it started with Heinz. That is what I really have to say. He had a lot of ideas which I wasn't just -- at that moment, I needed a change, I needed a push. For a couple of years I wasn't working as hard. I didn't do anything different. I just was playing tennis as a routine and he changed that. He made it more difficult, but he just -- he just showed me things that I wasn't shown at that stage. So I would think that he was the biggest change, the best change that I have had" (1994 Lipton Postmatch NewsConference, http://steffigraf.8m.com/Interview/94lipq.htm). Uncanny to hear her say what I figured out by myself without knowing that she had ever said this.

Now, it took a while for Heinz's ideas to take hold. In the third set of the '93 AO Final, for instance, Steffi was back to the same old routine and predictably on a slower surface she lost playing that way to a player who knew exactly what to do against the crosscourt pattern of slice backhands and inside-out forehands.

Heinz brought a lot of things to Steffi's attention: her typical shot patterns, her shot placement, the placement of her serves, her full repertoire of shots, specifically the short slice backhand, the slice backhand dtl, the dropshots, and the forehand dtl. He also taught her how to add more topspin to her forehand. But, above all, he showed her how to break the pattern of hitting to the AD Court, specifically against opponents like Seles who were only too ready to take advantage of that tendency in order to neutralize Graf's athleticism.

Unfortunately for Heinz I think, he would have to wait a couple of years to see if the strategy would work. As a Graf fan, there are many reasons to regret the stabbing of Seles. The least known reason of them all would have to be that we didn't get to see Steffi test some of Heinz's more advanced ideas against Seles any earlier than 1995.

In the 1995 US Open final, we saw almost all the elements of that strategy: Make Seles play the whole court by alternating inside-outside forehands with forehands dtl. Let's see how athletic she is. Do not fall into her trap of following a slice crosscourt with an inside-outside forehand. Play it straight to get her to play it straight. For the most part, hit backhands from the backhand corner and forehands from the forehand corner. When you manage to get her off balance when she's in the AD Court, do not hit back to the spot where she is most likely to be, the AD Court. Resist the tendency to go there for the winner. Instead, curl the forehand for a winner dtl to the Deuce court. When she's off balance and tries to buy herself time by hitting to your backhand, slice short and wide to the open court. She's expecting you not to be able to hit a winning drive with your backhand. So, show her how you can take advantage of her lack of speed by exploiting the short court, not only with short, wide-angled slices, but drop shots. Extrapolating from what I saw Graf do in the first and third sets of this match, this must have been the strategy that Heinz outlined for her. It worked!

It worked even better when they met in the 1996 US Open Final. Hitting drop shots and slices into the short court, always opposite of Seles' position on the court, unbalanced Seles to such a degree that she really just started going for impossible winners on almost any shot she could get to, in obvious frustration. In that match, Steffi also added a new element to the strategy. Defuse Seles' advantage on the return of serve by continually alternating the placement of the first serve: from both extremes, into the body, and down the T.

At her Hall of Fame Induction Ceremony, Steffi thanked Heinz for encouraging her to follow her feelings with respect to Andre. I remember thinking to myself as I heard this, "What is this guy, some Guardian Angel?" He shows up, fixes her game, gives her the motivation to continue playing for seven more years, and then helps Steffi to recognize true love when she sees it. Amazing, but true!

LDVTennis
Mar 3rd, 2005, 02:14 AM
Well at least we agree on something my feminine friend. (not that theres anything WRONG with that lol):lol: :lol:

Now Go back to sipping your chardonnay and listening to Streisand! lol

I'm not even going to bother.

I'm satisfied just knowing what a poor excuse for a gay man you are because clearly you have issues with anything "feminine." It is all making sense to me now. It is classic Freud. Only a boy who deep down questions his own masculinity would adopt a butch lesbian as his icon. (Of course, not that there is anything wrong with butch lesbians!)

Philbo
Mar 3rd, 2005, 02:24 AM
Steffi was not playing bad tennis because Monica was around. Steffi was playing bad tennis, period.

By 1991, Steffi's game had become predictable. This was not by design, since her two best shots (forehand and backhand slice) have always had the potential for a lot of variety. This was due to the inability of herself and her coaches to explore new strategies. Hence, by 1991, Steffi had settled into a very readable shot pattern. She was hitting a majority of her shots, both slice backhands and inside-out forehands, to the AD court.

If I had been coaching against her in those years, I would have advised Seles or any other player to do just what Seles' coaches told her to do. Camp out in the AD corner. Feed her a few balls to her favored spot on the court, the backhand corner, and wait for a ball to the AD court that you can hit down the line. You could have bet the house in those years that Steffi was going to hit the ball back to you in the AD corner at least 95% of the time. Stubborn as she was, Steffi hardly saw what was happening. I am almost certain that when she went back and examined her few losses to Seles in those years she actually thought it was due to the fact that she wasn't hitting her inside-out forehand well enough.

Now, this strategy didn't always work. It had less of a chance of working when it was a fast surface and when Steffi was hitting her slice backhand really well to Seles' forehand. You see on fast surfaces Steffi could always rely on her atleticism to overcome the consequences of most of her bad decisions on the court. Moreover, when Steffi could breakdown Seles' lesser shot, the forehand, with her slice, Seles really couldn't implement the strategy I outlined above.

In 1992, Steffi began working with Heinz Gunthardt. I wish I knew exactly when he joined the team, if it was before or after the 1992 Wimbledon Final. Whatever the case, Heinz had already figured out what the problem was. This is evident from the steps he took to solve it and what remarkable changes there were in the Graf game from late '93 to '99. In searching the net for the date when Steffi began working with Heinz, I happened to come across this statement by Steffi on what Heinz had meant to her game: "I would say that it started with Heinz. That is what I really have to say. He had a lot of ideas which I wasn't just -- at that moment, I needed a change, I needed a push. For a couple of years I wasn't working as hard. I didn't do anything different. I just was playing tennis as a routine and he changed that. He made it more difficult, but he just -- he just showed me things that I wasn't shown at that stage. So I would think that he was the biggest change, the best change that I have had" (1994 Lipton Postmatch NewsConference, http://steffigraf.8m.com/Interview/94lipq.htm). Uncanny to hear her say what I figured out by myself without knowing that she had ever said this.

Now, it took a while for Heinz's ideas to take hold. In the third set of the '93 AO Final, for instance, Steffi was back to the same old routine and predictably on a slower surface she lost playing that way to a player who knew exactly what to do against the crosscourt pattern of slice backhands and inside-out forehands.

Heinz brought a lot of things to Steffi's attention: her typical shot patterns, her shot placement, the placement of her serves, her full repertoire of shots, specifically the short slice backhand, the slice backhand dtl, the dropshots, and the forehand dtl. He also taught her how to add more topspin to her forehand. But, above all, he showed her how to break the pattern of hitting to the AD Court, specifically against opponents like Seles who were only too ready to take advantage of that tendency in order to neutralize Graf's athleticism.

Unfortunately for Heinz I think, he would have to wait a couple of years to see if the strategy would work. As a Graf fan, there are many reasons to regret the stabbing of Seles. The least known reason of them all would have to be that we didn't get to see Steffi test some of Heinz's more advanced ideas against Seles any earlier than 1995.

In the 1995 US Open final, we saw almost all the elements of that strategy: Make Seles play the whole court by alternating inside-outside forehands with forehands dtl. Let's see how athletic she is. Do not fall into her trap of following a slice crosscourt with an inside-outside forehand. Play it straight to get her to play it straight. For the most part, hit backhands from the backhand corner and forehands from the forehand corner. When you manage to get her off balance when she's in the AD Court, do not hit back to the spot where she is most likely to be, the AD Court. Resist the tendency to go there for the winner. Instead, curl the forehand for a winner dtl to the Deuce court. When she's off balance and tries to buy herself time by hitting to your backhand, slice short and wide to the open court. She's expecting you not to be able to hit a winning drive with your backhand. So, show her how you can take advantage of her lack of speed by exploiting the short court, not only with short, wide-angled slices, but drop shots. Extrapolating from what I saw Graf do in the first and third sets of this match, this must have been the strategy that Heinz outlined for her. It worked!

It worked even better when they met in the 1996 US Open Final. Hitting drop shots and slices into the short court, always opposite of Seles' position on the court, unbalanced Seles to such a degree that she really just started going for impossible winners on almost any shot she could get to, in obvious frustration. In that match, Steffi also added a new element to the strategy. Defuse Seles' advantage on the return of serve by continually alternating the placement of the first serve: from both extremes, into the body, and down the T.

At her Hall of Fame Induction Ceremony, Steffi thanked Heinz for encouraging her to follow her feelings with respect to Andre. I remember thinking to myself as I heard this, "What is this guy, some Guardian Angel?" He shows up, fixes her game, gives her the motivation to continue playing for seven more years, and then helps Steffi to recognize true love when she sees it. Amazing, but true!

*Phil waits to see Cali come in and attack LDV's theory - after all, according to cali, the only reason for the form reversal was a few bad tabloid articles!!*

This is getting good.

Philbo
Mar 3rd, 2005, 02:30 AM
I'm not even going to bother.

I'm satisfied just knowing what a poor excuse for a gay man you are because clearly you have issues with anything "feminine." It is all making sense to me now. It is classic Freud. Only a boy who deep down questions his own masculinity would adopt a butch lesbian as his icon. (Of course, not that there is anything wrong with butch lesbians!)
As Ive said before LDV, I dont have issues with anything 'feminine' some of my best friends are feminine. You are the one with a big masculinity issue.

Seeing as you completely lack the quality, you abhor it in other people, especially people who dont fit your preconceived ideas of who and what should be masculine. The idea of a masculine gay man is abhorrent to you, as is the idea of a masculine gay female - hence your vilification of Martina, and worshipping of Steffi as the eptiome of female grace and beauty.

But Newsflash LDV - people come in all shapes and sizes, there ARE masculine gay men out there who are completely comfortabale with their sexuality and who they are.

They dont feel the need to conform to every gay stereotype in order to be a part of the 'gay club' like yourself.

Orion
Mar 3rd, 2005, 02:50 AM
Does your conversation really belong here? I didn't think so.

Calimero377
Mar 3rd, 2005, 05:05 AM
...
In 1992, Steffi began working with Heinz Gunthardt. I wish I knew exactly when he joined the team, if it was before or after the 1992 Wimbledon Final. ...

Günthardt was hired in December 1991.

Calimero377
Mar 3rd, 2005, 05:10 AM
*Phil waits to see Cali come in and attack LDV's theory - after all, according to cali, the only reason for the form reversal was a few bad tabloid articles!!*

This is getting good.


No, there is no contradiction. LDVTennis' analysis is OK. Graf indeed hat became predictable. Why? She had lost her confidence and her joy playing the game. Why this? The family scandal.

BTW, to compare Navi's tabloid headlines with the Graf case is ridiculous. How many front page headlines in the tabloid with the biggest national circulation did Navi have?
I bet "zero".
Well, Graf had many dozens. It was the scandal of the year in her native country.

Calimero377
Mar 3rd, 2005, 05:13 AM
Does your conversation really belong here? I didn't think so.


Well, we could discuss our sexual preferences here as well.

Let's start with underage girls .... :drool:

faboozadoo15
Mar 3rd, 2005, 07:47 PM
BTW, to compare Navi's tabloid headlines with the Graf case is ridiculous. How many front page headlines in the tabloid with the biggest national circulation did Navi have?
I bet "zero".
Well, Graf had many dozens. It was the scandal of the year in her native country.
are you kidding me?
for years, martina was hated for being who she IS. stories flew all over the place about her, and they were all rooted in sexism. it seemed no one was ahppy for her success-- players today aknowledge that the biggest headlines were reserved for when someone beat martina, never for martina doing something sensational. couple that with the homophobic journalism/press, and i think dear martina has steffi's tabloids about her family scandal beaten.

Calimero377
Mar 3rd, 2005, 07:52 PM
are you kidding me?
for years, martina was hated for being who she IS. stories flew all over the place about her, and they were all rooted in sexism. it seemed no one was ahppy for her success-- players today aknowledge that the biggest headlines were reserved for when someone beat martina, never for martina doing something sensational. couple that with the homophobic journalism/press, and i think dear martina has steffi's tabloids about her family scandal beaten.


How many frontpage headlines in a 6-million circulation tabloid newspaper did Navi get?

Case closed, Fabooby ....

tennislover
Mar 3rd, 2005, 08:00 PM
tell me, cali, Graf was ever given a ten-minute standing ovation, out of germany? I doubt about it....
After 1994 Rome final lost to martinez, the crowd dedicated to Martina a ten-minute (literally!) :eek: wonderful standing ovation........

KV
Mar 3rd, 2005, 08:13 PM
M. Navratilova vs. P. Shriver

Philbo
Mar 3rd, 2005, 08:37 PM
No, there is no contradiction. LDVTennis' analysis is OK. Graf indeed hat became predictable. Why? She had lost her confidence and her joy playing the game. Why this? The family scandal.

BTW, to compare Navi's tabloid headlines with the Graf case is ridiculous. How many front page headlines in the tabloid with the biggest national circulation did Navi have?
I bet "zero".
Well, Graf had many dozens. It was the scandal of the year in her native country.



Okay, so now Cali believes that Graf was overtaken for # 1 because her game had become boring and predictable. I'll take that as a victory..

You are right, comparing Martina's and Steffi's battles with the tabloids is RIDICULOUS - ridiculous to think Steffi has it HALF as bad as Martina...you are a joke to claim that Graf had worse treatment off the press - the british tabloids - WAY WORSE THAN THE GERMAN TABLOIDS - never camped out on Steffi's doorstep throughout wimbledon to get a picture of who Steffi was sharing a room with - thats just one example..But you dont see me using pathetic bullshit like that as an excuse - Steffi's the one who needs bullshit excuses like that to justify poor form on the court.

Wake up you complete and utter german fool.

Calimero377
Mar 3rd, 2005, 08:45 PM
tell me, cali, Graf was ever given a ten-minute standing ovation, out of germany? I doubt about it....
After 1994 Rome final lost to martinez, the crowd dedicated to Martina a ten-minute (literally!) :eek: wonderful standing ovation........


Pity for the loser.

Watch the victory ceremonies of Wimbledon 92 or FO 99.
Navi never was cheered like this when she won slams.
At Wimbledon Graf even was showered with flowers ...

:worship: :hearts: :worship:

Graf, what a player!

Calimero377
Mar 3rd, 2005, 08:52 PM
Okay, so now Cali believes that Graf was overtaken for # 1 because her game had become boring and predictable. I'll take that as a victory..

You are right, comparing Martina's and Steffi's battles with the tabloids is RIDICULOUS - ridiculous to think Steffi has it HALF as bad as Martina...you are a joke to claim that Graf had worse treatment off the press - the british tabloids - WAY WORSE THAN THE GERMAN TABLOIDS - never camped out on Steffi's doorstep throughout wimbledon to get a picture of who Steffi was sharing a room with - thats just one example..But you dont see me using pathetic bullshit like that as an excuse - Steffi's the one who needs bullshit excuses like that to justify poor form on the court.

Wake up you complete and utter german fool.

The greatest-ever doesn't need excuses.
Most slams of all pro players, each won at least 4 times, 377 & 186 weeks as #1, most prize money, 4 different #1's beaten in slam finals, record slam final result (6-0, 6-0), best win against a reigning #1 (6-2, 6-1 vs. Seles, Wim 92), no negative H2H against any player who ever made the #1 spot, chosen by ATP players to be the most beautiful player, having won almost all greatest-ever polls, being married to the most popular male tennis player ever, first tennis player ever in the SI Swimsuit Issue, Vogue model many times - what else can be said ... ?


:worship: :hearts: :worship:

LDVTennis
Mar 3rd, 2005, 08:53 PM
As Ive said before LDV, I dont have issues with anything 'feminine' some of my best friends are feminine. You are the one with a big masculinity issue.

Seeing as you completely lack the quality, you abhor it in other people, especially people who dont fit your preconceived ideas of who and what should be masculine. The idea of a masculine gay man is abhorrent to you, as is the idea of a masculine gay female - hence your vilification of Martina, and worshipping of Steffi as the eptiome of female grace and beauty.

But Newsflash LDV - people come in all shapes and sizes, there ARE masculine gay men out there who are completely comfortabale with their sexuality and who they are.

They dont feel the need to conform to every gay stereotype in order to be a part of the 'gay club' like yourself.

I am not going to continue this line of questioning because if I did it would quickly become apparent that you do not have the intellectual resources, the basic analytical skills, or even the life experiences I have to make it interesting, let alone challenging to me. Your poor attempt to pscyhoanalyze me already demonstrates that.

Philbo
Mar 3rd, 2005, 08:55 PM
The greatest-ever doesn't need excuses.
Most slams of all pro players, each won at least 4 times, 377 & 186 weeks as #1, most prize money, 4 different #1's beaten in slam finals, record slam final result (6-0, 6-0), best win against a reigning #1 (6-2, 6-1 vs. Seles, Wim 92), no negative H2H against any player who ever made the #1 spot, chosen by ATP players to be the most beautiful player, having won almost all greatest-ever polls, being married to the most popular male tennis player ever, first tennis player ever in the SI Swimsuit Issue, Vogue model many times - what else can be said ... ?


:worship: :hearts: :worship:

You are right Martina doesnt need excuses (greatest ever)..

What puzzles me is why you spend 95% of your time on wtaworld posting excuses for every loss Graf ever suffered???? Graf had a great career, she doesnt need it tarnished by a deranged fan turning more people off her by excusing every loss she ever had due to some bad press about daddy fucking strippers or cheating on taxes...

Philbo
Mar 3rd, 2005, 08:55 PM
I am not going to continue this line of questioning because if I did it would quickly become apparent that you do not have the intellectual resources, the basic analytical skills, or even the life experiences I have to make it interesting, let alone challenging to me. Your poor attempt to pscyhoanalyze me already demonstrates that.

Okay then Professor!! lol:tape:

LDVTennis
Mar 3rd, 2005, 09:05 PM
No, there is no contradiction. LDVTennis' analysis is OK. Graf indeed hat became predictable. Why? She had lost her confidence and her joy playing the game. Why this? The family scandal.

BTW, to compare Navi's tabloid headlines with the Graf case is ridiculous. How many front page headlines in the tabloid with the biggest national circulation did Navi have?
I bet "zero".
Well, Graf had many dozens. It was the scandal of the year in her native country.

Just OK? I was expecting you to call it "brilliant." :)

As to the contradiction? You, Germans, have historically been gifted with superb dialectical minds. So, I just knew that you would find a way to resolve the obvious antithesis between my theory and yours.

Indeed, if one asks the question Why? on a personal level, then in true dialectical fashion one arrives at higher level of understanding of the problem.

I'm not, however, a German idealist like you my friend. So, if it is OK with you, I will continue to assert, being the materialist that I am, that it was a technical problem. And, please don't try to idealize the" technical" as you Germans are so prone to do. And, just so that no one mistakes what I am saying, I am referring to Heidegger's philosophy when I say that.

Orion
Mar 3rd, 2005, 09:17 PM
Well cited! I haven't heard someone use him in coversation in years. To jump right back in, I agree that no player ever has, and probably never will, have the dazzling singles career of Steffi Graf, and I also believe she is the greatest ever in singles. I only wish we could have seen her in doubles more often. Wouldn't it be clutch if she and Andre teamed for mixed someday? I bet they could sneak off with a US Open or two...

Philbo
Mar 3rd, 2005, 09:22 PM
Well cited! I haven't heard someone use him in coversation in years. To jump right back in, I agree that no player ever has, and probably never will, have the dazzling singles career of Steffi Graf, and I also believe she is the greatest ever in singles. I only wish we could have seen her in doubles more often. Wouldn't it be clutch if she and Andre teamed for mixed someday? I bet they could sneak off with a US Open or two...

Steffi's body isnt up to mixed doubles. Its too brittle and injury-prone.

She had her chance the other year when Andre wanted her to play but she was tooo chicken shit.

Calimero377
Mar 3rd, 2005, 09:42 PM
Just OK? I was expecting you to call it "brilliant." :)

As to the contradiction? You, Germans, have historically been gifted with superb dialectical minds. So, I just knew that you would find a way to resolve the obvious antithesis between my theory and yours. ....


We Germans saw cause and effect. That is no rocket science.
We knew that Graf was a national hero who suffered more and more from a nation's expecations, and whose family's life and scandals were every-day talk among Germans in 90/91. We saw her retire into herself and her game become predictable and we concluded that there must be a connection.
Most non-Germans didn't watch the cause and never understood her status in Germany. So they couldn't come up with this conclusion.


...
I'm not, however, a German idealist like you my friend. So, if it is OK with you, I will continue to assert, being the materialist that I am, that it was a technical problem. And, please don't try to idealize the" technical" as you Germans are so prone to do. And, just so that no one mistakes what I am saying, I am referring to Heidegger's philosophy when I say that.

I never understood Heidegger. Almost as unreadable as Hegel.
We don't need them to draw a direct line from a cause to an effect.

Calimero377
Mar 3rd, 2005, 09:47 PM
Steffi's body isnt up to mixed doubles. Its too brittle and injury-prone.




You got a point here.

If she had had an almost injury-free career like Navi she would have had 30+ slams. The talent was there. But it was not meant to be ...

And if Navi had had Graf's fragile body she would have ended with less than 10 slams under her belt.

That is the difference between Graf and Navi in a nutshell.

bandabou
Mar 3rd, 2005, 09:52 PM
Serena Williams:
Jennifer Capriati.
Kim Clijsters ( OWNED)
Lindsay Davenport
Monica Seles
Amelie Mauresmo ( OWNED)
Justine Henin

Philbo
Mar 3rd, 2005, 09:58 PM
You got a point here.

If she had had an almost injury-free career like Navi she would have had 30+ slams. The talent was there. But it was not meant to be ...

And if Navi had had Graf's fragile body she would have ended with less than 10 slams under her belt.

That is the difference between Graf and Navi in a nutshell.

Woulda shoulda coulda.. Ring a bell?

At the end of the day Steffi needs to take responsibility for her injuries. Her training and preparation obviously wasnt near Martina's advanced techniques. Fitness is the key to injury prevention and technique - ask Mauresmo or Edberg how their service actions were responsible for their reoccuring back problems.

If graf didnt train properly or played too much during her schedule to the point where her body continually broke down - thats her problem.

If Martina skipped event like Australian Open or french Open - it had more to do with maintaining her fitness and preventing wear and tear on the body -

Martina was smart with her preparation and schedule, Graf wasnt. Thats the difference between martina and Graf in a nutshell. lol:lol:

raquel
Mar 3rd, 2005, 10:18 PM
Pity for the loser.

Watch the victory ceremonies of Wimbledon 92 or FO 99.
Navi never was cheered like this when she won slams.
At Wimbledon Graf even was showered with flowers ...

:worship: :hearts: :worship:

Graf, what a player!
I have never seen the 1992 Wimbledon final but would have thought that the crowd that day would have been for Monica as Steffi had won it before a few times. Or was it Steffi who was seen as an underdog that day, even though it was grass? You know how much the Wimbledon crowd love an underdog to cheer on.

I remember that Champions parade at Wimbledon (I think it was 2000) and Steffi was given one of the biggest cheers by far (I think after the year before the crowds never got to say goodbye properly after the 1999 final). Steffi is certainly very popular here in the UK. I know tennislover often mentions how many of the Graf fans here have a British flag. But Martina was very popular here especially towards the end of her career (Wimbledon 1994 final) and when she won the mixed with Leander in 2003 it was probably the most popular win of the tournament, so Martina is definitely popular too.

Calimero377
Mar 3rd, 2005, 11:10 PM
Woulda shoulda coulda.. Ring a bell?

At the end of the day Steffi needs to take responsibility for her injuries. Her training and preparation obviously wasnt near Martina's advanced techniques. Fitness is the key to injury prevention and technique - ask Mauresmo or Edberg how their service actions were responsible for their reoccuring back problems.

If graf didnt train properly or played too much during her schedule to the point where her body continually broke down - thats her problem.

If Martina skipped event like Australian Open or french Open - it had more to do with maintaining her fitness and preventing wear and tear on the body -

Martina was smart with her preparation and schedule, Graf wasnt. Thats the difference between martina and Graf in a nutshell. lol:lol:


The difference is 22-18 (slams), 377-331 (weeks as #1), 8-7 (year-end #1's) and 4-1 (years with FO/Wim/USO in same year).

BTW, Graf had an inherited back problem. Her mother almost ended in a wheel chair ....

Calimero377
Mar 3rd, 2005, 11:18 PM
I have never seen the 1992 Wimbledon final but would have thought that the crowd that day would have been for Monica as Steffi had won it before a few times. Or was it Steffi who was seen as an underdog that day, even though it was grass? You know how much the Wimbledon crowd love an underdog to cheer on.

...

You should buy a video tape of this match!
Maybe Graf's best match ever. Better than AO 94 ....
Graf was the favourite with the bookies. And the overwhelming crowd favourite. She made the longest victory lap I ever witnessed after a Wimbledon final.
Don't forget: Seles played her best ever Wimbledon tournament that year. And was nevertheless thoroughly thrashed by Steffi! It was most devastating loss a #1 player ever suffered in a slam final!

Philbo
Mar 3rd, 2005, 11:28 PM
The difference is 22-18 (slams), 377-331 (weeks as #1), 8-7 (year-end #1's) and 4-1 (years with FO/Wim/USO in same year).

BTW, Graf had an inherited back problem. Her mother almost ended in a wheel chair ....

Boo Hoo re 'inherited back problem' - yet another excuse - this time for her brittle body.

Longevity was never gonne be Graf's biggest strength..

and the other difference between Martina and Steffi is that Martina's record was achieved by herself. Without the help of a deranged fan. Cant say that about Graf.

DA FOREHAND
Mar 3rd, 2005, 11:37 PM
Serena Williams:
Jennifer Capriati.
Kim Clijsters ( OWNED)
Lindsay Davenport
Monica Seles
Amelie Mauresmo ( OWNED)
Justine Henin


I think you can put the owned label next to Lindsay's name as well

LDVTennis
Mar 4th, 2005, 12:26 AM
Woulda shoulda coulda.. Ring a bell?

At the end of the day Steffi needs to take responsibility for her injuries. Her training and preparation obviously wasnt near Martina's advanced techniques. Fitness is the key to injury prevention and technique - ask Mauresmo or Edberg how their service actions were responsible for their reoccuring back problems.

If graf didnt train properly or played too much during her schedule to the point where her body continually broke down - thats her problem.

If Martina skipped event like Australian Open or french Open - it had more to do with maintaining her fitness and preventing wear and tear on the body.

Martina was smart with her preparation and schedule, Graf wasnt. Thats the difference between martina and Graf in a nutshell.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

Steffi did take care of her body. Her problem may not have been lack of training, but too much training.

She turned pro when she was 13. It would take 11 years of playing at or near her physical peak for her to get her first serious injury, the bone spur in her back (1994). Compare that to the Williams' sisters who sustained serious injuries after only 4-5 years of playing at or near their physical peak. And, compare that to Martina who for the first 8-9 years of her career was nowhere near her physical peak. Indeed, she was often chubby and out of breath.

Martina only reached her physical peak in 1982 after committing herself to a rigorous training regimen. She played at that physical peak from '82 to at least '89 (the last year she played in at least 3 out of 4 majors). If you are counting, that is only 7 years.

But, more about Steffi, the bone spur in the back was as Calimero reported a congenital condition. It began to bother her during the clay court season in 1994. It showed its worst effects during the US Open final that year. A formal treatment plan for the conditions was not put in place until the end of the year. Still bothered by the injury, Graf skipped the 1995 AO.

A stretching regimen over time helped to relieve the worst effect of the injury, back spasms. Graf returned to action at the Paris Open in 1995, beating Mary Pierce, the recently-crowned AO champion. She would go on to win the French, Wimbledon, and US Open titles. In retrospect, it seems like the back injury may not have been as debilitating an injury as it seemed in the 1994 US Open final. It did initially cause Steffi to cut back on her training, but by the 1996 FO Steffi admitted to again being in the best shape of her career.

The only injury that ever caused Steffi to not play in at least 3 out of the 4 majors was the knee injury she first sustained at Eastbourne in 1996. Playing with the injury in 1996, she finished with titles at Wimbledon, the US Open, and the Chase Championships. It wasn't until 1997 that the injury forced her off the tour.

In view of her success in '95 and '96, it could be argued that Steffi played without a truly debilitating injury, one that would have caused her to miss more than two majors, for 13 years. That's now 6 more years than Martina. And considering Martina played at her physical peak for only 7 years (7 years of at least 3 majors following her new found fitness level in 1982), it could be argued that Steffi performed at or near her physical peak for almost twice as many years as Martina did.

But, you know what Czechfan thinks. Read it above. Steffi was not nearly as well-prepared an athlete as Martina. Yeah, right!

Philbo
Mar 4th, 2005, 12:47 AM
Hahahahahaha, Now Ive read it all.. Steffi was a better prepared athlete than Martina? Thats pretty funny, even for you LDV..


you actually backed up what I was saying inadvertantly - "A stretching regimen over time helped to relieve the worst effect of the injury, back spasms" - exactly - preparation and training techniques were used to overcome the injury - now if Graf had better advice she would have been doing a stretching routine before the back injury ever became a problem - perfect example of what Im talking about.

You can use your stats around 2 or 3 out of 4 majors a year - stats can be twisted to prove anypoint at Cali has shown us many times until Andy T calls him up on how they are twisted to favour Steffi, but at the end of the day LDV - martina was ranked inside the top 5 for about 20 years, Graf was at the top for about 13 and a few of those latter ones she was injury prone.

But its very amusing watching you try and make the point that Graf performed at her physical peak longer than Martina - its almost as laughable as your best claim of all time - that Steffi was a bigger GAY icon than Martina - thats still your best fucked up quote by a long way..

LDVTennis
Mar 4th, 2005, 02:34 AM
Hahahahahaha, Now Ive read it all.. Steffi was a better prepared athlete than Martina? Thats pretty funny, even for you LDV..[/size][/font]

you actually backed up what I was saying inadvertantly - "[font=Times New A stretching regimen over time helped to relieve the worst effect of the injury, back spasms" - exactly - preparation and training techniques were used to overcome the injury - now if Graf had better advice she would have been doing a stretching routine before the back injury ever became a problem - perfect example of what Im talking about.

You can use your stats around 2 or 3 out of 4 majors a year - stats can be twisted to prove anypoint at Cali has shown us many times until Andy T calls him up on how they are twisted to favour Steffi, but at the end of the day LDV - martina was ranked inside the top 5 for about 20 years, Graf was at the top for about 13 and a few of those latter ones she was injury prone.

But its very amusing watching you try and make the point that Graf performed at her physical peak longer than Martina - its almost as laughable as your best claim of all time - that Steffi was a bigger GAY icon than Martina - thats still your best fucked up quote by a long way..

Points from my last post not addressed by Czechfan:

(1) Martina was not at or near her physical peak for the first 8-9 years of her professional career. She was quite the oppposite, chubby and out of breath.

(2) Martina reached her physical peak only in 1982 after a rigorous training regimen. That lasted only 7 years until 1989, the last year that Martina played in at least 3 majors or the last year that Martina's body didn't start to dictate her schedule so much that she had to miss more than one major.

Points from my last post that Czechfan took out of context:

(1) Graf began a stretching regimen to treat her back. He incorrectly assumed that she had not been stretching up to this point. She had.

Points that Czechfan makes that are incidental to the argument at hand:

(1) Martina was ranked in the top 5 for 20 years. [I thought this argument was about being a well-prepared athlete. Unless being chubby and out of breath for a number of those 20 years (at least 8 of them) counts as being well-prepared as an athlete, I don't see how this matters.]

One more in a long list of non sequitors that Czechfan is prone to make when he can't respond to the argument before him:

(1) Claiming Martina was not as well prepared an athlete for more of her career than Steffi must be wrong because I've claimed elsewhere she was a bigger gay icon. Huh? The reply clearly has no relevance to the argument that preceded it.

Philbo
Mar 4th, 2005, 02:43 AM
you assume incorrectly that I have some sort of obligation to post rebuttals to each and every point you bring up - this would come under 'reasonable dialogue' - which we've both agreed we cant be bothered doing. So I dont see why you are getting worked up.

Im waiting for my apology in the other thread where you accuse me of making stuff up!

Philbo
Mar 4th, 2005, 03:03 AM
(1) Martina was ranked in the top 5 for 20 years. [I thought this argument was about being a well-prepared athlete. Unless being chubby and out of breath for a number of those 20 years (at least 8 of them) counts as being well-prepared as an athlete, I don't see how this matters.]

One more in a long list of non sequitors that Czechfan is prone to make when he can't respond to the argument before him:




Im surprised you cannot see how being in the Top 5 for 20 consective years without a break is not PROOF of being a well prepared athlete. You cannot retain a top 5 position for 20 years without being well prepared LDV - Im sure this obvious point wasnt lost on other readers of the thread.

Can't is the wrong word to use when talking about responding to your points.. - NOT BOTHERED is more accurate. Why bother dissecting your post and rebutting to every point when it will only fall on deaf ears?

bello
Mar 4th, 2005, 03:03 AM
cant people keep to topic, this would actually be an interesting topic iof it was treated properly!

tennislover
Mar 4th, 2005, 12:33 PM
Pity for the loser.

Watch the victory ceremonies of Wimbledon 92 or FO 99.
Navi never was cheered like this when she won slams.
At Wimbledon Graf even was showered with flowers ...

:worship: :hearts: :worship:

Graf, what a player!


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

tennislover
Mar 4th, 2005, 12:40 PM
ISteffi is certainly very popular here in the UK.

I wonder how to beat that plague...... :lol:




But Martina was very popular here especially towards the end of her career (Wimbledon 1994 final) and when she won the mixed with Leander in 2003 it was probably the most popular win of the tournament, so Martina is definitely popular too.

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/sidjames/126/martina3.jpg

simply the most touching pic in the history of the game......

DA FOREHAND
Mar 4th, 2005, 02:13 PM
cant people keep to topic, this would actually be an interesting topic iof it was treated properly!


HELLO!!! :wavey: