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View Full Version : will Enna ever match Serena in greatness?


bandabou
Feb 25th, 2005, 09:42 PM
The tally is 7 majors for Serena to 3 for Enna. Serena has all four and wimbledon twice, while Enna has just one final at Wimbledon.

Do u think that Enna will at least win one wimbledon so that we can start discussing this, ' cause we all know that no wimbledon=no great, or is she gonna go down in the same league as the Pierces, Davenports, etc?

what do u guys think?

Knizzle
Feb 25th, 2005, 09:45 PM
Who cares? :shrug:

!<blocparty>!
Feb 25th, 2005, 09:52 PM
Since when has the been called Enna? WTF?

bandabou
Feb 25th, 2005, 09:54 PM
You don't care, Knizz?

:Rawwb:
Feb 25th, 2005, 09:55 PM
Who is Enna? I hate all these stupid nicknames you all use, it confuses me

Knizzle
Feb 25th, 2005, 09:57 PM
You don't care, Knizz?

Not about Henin in particular matching Serena's greatness, no.

~Cherry*Blossom~
Feb 25th, 2005, 09:59 PM
What's the point of starting this thread? There have been soo many.

Anyways, I will say no!

Venus+Serena#1fan
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:02 PM
I dont think so.
Serena is still just as young and currently in better form than Henin (who obviously has been out). Justine could possibly win more slams but im pretty sure Serena will win quite a handful more, she still has alot ahead of her.

blumaroo
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:04 PM
why another thread about this? Don't sink to the level of Calimero please. If Justine comes back healthy, who knows what would happen. She works very hard unlike Serena so every succes is deserved.

tennislover
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:06 PM
if juju is 100% fit, she will......

bandabou
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:08 PM
Not about Henin in particular matching Serena's greatness, no.


people are wondering...

tennislover
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:10 PM
people are wondering...


people are hoping...... :lol:

bandabou
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:11 PM
Enna works harder than Serena, but Serena is the one with more majors....hmmm.....so Serena won by luck?

bandabou
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:15 PM
In a sense she's SUPPOSED too....she's more talented, she's better at her peak than Serena, has beaten better oposition in her major finals, etc......so yeah, if she's so much better than Serena, shouldn't be hard..

Besides...what do they say about injuries and greats? Only the great ones bounce back and reach a their old level...considering how Enna is already greater than Serena, and even Serena has won a major since coming back, enna should have an easier time...

Brαm
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:16 PM
:yawn: :help:

!<blocparty>!
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:19 PM
:yawn: :help:

That says is all really.

Ban, why do you want to start a thread like this? You know where its gonna end up and whats going to happen. This is GM.

tennislover
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:21 PM
In a sense she's SUPPOSED too....she's more talented, she's better at her peak than Serena, has beaten better oposition in her major finals, etc......so yeah, if she's so much better than Serena, shouldn't be hard..

Besides...what do they say about injuries and greats? Only the great ones bounce back and reach a their old level...considering how Enna is already greater than Serena, and even Serena has won a major since coming back, enna should have an easier time...

we'll see.....

Denise4925
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:23 PM
Who cares? :shrug:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Denise4925
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:25 PM
why another thread about this? Don't sink to the level of Calimero please. If Justine comes back healthy, who knows what would happen. She works very hard unlike Serena so every succes is deserved.
Oh Lawd...HELP ME PUHLEEZE LAWD!!!! :tape:

bandabou
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:25 PM
we'll see.....


where's the faith? We' ll see? I thought you KNEW...

Denise4925
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:26 PM
In a sense she's SUPPOSED too....she's more talented, she's better at her peak than Serena, has beaten better oposition in her major finals, etc......so yeah, if she's so much better than Serena, shouldn't be hard..

Besides...what do they say about injuries and greats? Only the great ones bounce back and reach a their old level...considering how Enna is already greater than Serena, and even Serena has won a major since coming back, enna should have an easier time...
:confused:

tennislover
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:28 PM
where's the faith? We' ll see? I thought you KNEW...


i hope henin will do well....
it will be be not easy for her to start playing again.....

Calimero377
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:32 PM
The tally is 7 majors for Serena to 3 for Enna. Serena has all four and wimbledon twice, while Enna has just one final at Wimbledon.

Do u think that Enna will at least win one wimbledon so that we can start discussing this, ' cause we all know that no wimbledon=no great, or is she gonna go down in the same league as the Pierces, Davenports, etc?

what do u guys think?


Same league as the Pierces, Davenports and Seleses ... until now.
But she will win some Wimbledons in the future. And Serena will be seen as the bridge between all-time greats Graf & Enna.

lucashg
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:32 PM
Enna? Why the heck Justine's nickname is Enna?

Well, "only time will tell" that but, I also think that Justine is more talented and works - at this time - harder than Serena, so she deserves to win a few more. I definitely want to see her winning RG and the Aussie once more and, of course, Wimbledon. It's gonna be TOUGH, but I think she can make it.

Oh, I figured that it means that she'll have six majors, not seven as you asked, hehe.

lilly
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:33 PM
Mrs Henin-Hardenne would like to inform you all to refer to Herself as Mrs Henin-Hardenne.
Her Royal Highness further states She has plans to fire the Argentinean help, kick the Brazilian street uchin out the house, extend Her cinema career in comedy and develop Her UJUJ-label.


More information at the H²HQ (http://www.wtaworld.com/forumdisplay.php?f=112).

bandabou
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:35 PM
Same league as the Pierces, Davenports and Seleses ... until now.
But she will win some Wimbledons in the future. And Serena will be seen as the bridge between all-time greats Graf & Enna.


As the bridge between all-time greats.....interesting. So where does that leave Serena?

Calimero377
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:37 PM
people are wondering...


You are obviously obsessed with Serena .....

:eek:

bandabou
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:39 PM
i hope henin will do well....
it will be be not easy for her to start playing again.....

But she's an all-time great and the most talented player, right? if Serena who afterall doesn't have ANY talent whatsoever could, why not Enna?

Calimero377
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:39 PM
Enna works harder than Serena, but Serena is the one with more majors....hmmm.....so Serena won by luck?


No, she won because she had to play big sis only most of the time ...

tennnisfannn
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:40 PM
. She works very hard unlike Serena so every succes is deserved.
Boy! that is a myth, serena doesn't roll out of bed to win a slam, if she did then SHAME ON THE REST OF THE TOUR. Serena and venus would have to be harder workers, anyone who can manage to do well out of the court and inside it would definitely be on double shifts. have you seen what serena is able to do, her schedule is chokers, that would mean she works so hard to stay fit, on her game, on her designaand whatever else tickles her fancy.

tennislover
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:40 PM
Mrs Henin-Hardenne would like to inform you all to refer to Herself as Mrs Henin-Hardenne.
Her Royal Highness further states She has plans to fire the Argentinean help, kick the Brazilian street uchin out the house, extend Her cinema career in comedy and develop Her UJUJ-label



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I definetely like calling her "Enna" (Bandabou copyright)

bandabou
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:40 PM
You are obviously obsessed with Serena .....

:eek:

Why would I be?

tennislover
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:43 PM
You are obviously obsessed with Serena .....

:eek:


to hear the word "obsessed" from you is so funny!!!! :haha:

tennislover
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:44 PM
But she's an all-time great and the most talented player, right? if Serena who afterall doesn't have ANY talent whatsoever could, why not Enna?
banda players are not machines so nothing is 100% sure....

bandabou
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:45 PM
No, she won because she had to play big sis only most of the time ...

Kim Clijsters or Venus Williams in a final of a major....who do you think enna herself would rather face? Is Enna the only all-time great to be bageled AND bradsticked in ONE major final?

tennislover
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:45 PM
No, she won because she had to play big sis only most of the time ...

sis? :confused:

bandabou
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:47 PM
banda players are not machines so nothing is 100% sure....

So you're saying talent alone isn't everything?

tennislover
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:47 PM
You are obviously obsessed with Serena .....

:eek:

yes, and all the (wta) world knew that, cali

1jackson2001
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:47 PM
Same league as the Pierces, Davenports and Seleses ...

OK putting Pierce and Davenport in the same league as Seles is just wrong. :o

Also, IMO, Mary is still a tier below Lindsay at least. Just look at their records.

Calimero377
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:49 PM
Kim Clijsters or Venus Williams in a final of a major....who do you think enna herself would rather face? Is Enna the only all-time great to be bageled AND bradsticked in ONE major final?


Venus of course. Clijsters still has the stuff to win a slam. Venus no more ...

tennislover
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:49 PM
So you're saying talent alone isn't everything?


obviously talent is no1 for me but there are one thousand elements:
1) fitness
2) luck
3) psycology
4) off-courts life

1jackson2001
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:50 PM
As for the thread's question, yes it is possible. But I don't think it will happen. I thought Justine's best chance to catch up was when Serena and Venus were out with injuries and Justine would continue to roll in 2004 after a great 2003. But then Justine got sick/injured herself (not really her fault) and who knows how she'll return.

If they started on the same footing it might be different, but Serena already has a 4 major (and the 4 consecutive slam thing) head start...so IMO, Justine won't be able to make up that much ground. But stranger things have happened...

Denise4925
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:51 PM
Enna? Why the heck Justine's nickname is Enna?

Well, "only time will tell" that but, I also think that Justine is more talented and works - at this time - harder than Serena, so she deserves to win a few more. I definitely want to see her winning RG and the Aussie once more and, of course, Wimbledon. It's gonna be TOUGH, but I think she can make it.

Oh, I figured that it means that she'll have six majors, not seven as you asked, hehe.
What makes you think Justine works harder? Because she's smaller or because she's less talented?

1jackson2001
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:54 PM
Venus of course. Clijsters still has the stuff to win a slam. Venus no more ...

Clijsters who has no slams herself? The Clijsters that choke away a 5-1 lead against Serena in the semis of AO??:confused:

Also just look at Justine's record against Venus...not very pretty. :lol:

Denise4925
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:55 PM
Clijsters who has no slams herself? The Clijsters that choke away a 5-1 lead against Serena in the semis of AO??:confused:

Also just look at Justine's record against Venus...not very pretty. :lol:
:worship: :worship: :worship:

bandabou
Feb 25th, 2005, 10:55 PM
obviously talent is no1 for me but there are one thousand elements:
1) fitness
2) luck
3) psycology
4) off-courts life


Interesting.....so Serena has to be plenty good in those other departments to overcome the talent-department gap between she and Enna, then?

tennislover
Feb 25th, 2005, 11:04 PM
Interesting.....so Serena has to be plenty good in those other departments to overcome the talent-department gap between she and Enna, then?

yes

blumaroo
Feb 25th, 2005, 11:04 PM
Serena has said it herself that she didn't train much and that is why she got injured. Of course Serena has got more natural power and dare I say "talent". But Justine really worked her butt off to become such a force with such a small body. She overtrained so much and hence the burn-out. Serena was busy with all the other stuff and lost her focus for awhile. It seems she needed some losses to shake her up and now she is winning again. That is why I said Justine worked hard and deserved her succes.
This whole greatness thing is just silly. Can't you two bandabou and calimero just discuss this further in pm or something. It would only start more riots. Both ladies are talented and will win more slams in the future.

bandabou
Feb 25th, 2005, 11:13 PM
yes


At least that she got going for her, I guess....

tennnisfannn
Feb 25th, 2005, 11:16 PM
No, she won because she had to play big sis only most of the time ...
You sure got a point there, the WTA was gracious enough to give venus 6 byes to the final. How easily you forget, THE TOUR WASN'T BEATING VENUS EITHER! Venus was the toughest opposition serena could have played in all those finals.
When Justine won slams, Kim was the toughest opposition for her two ask navritalova who she beat majority of the time for her many slams.

bandabou
Feb 25th, 2005, 11:19 PM
:haha: :rolls: Exactly tennisfan....when Serena was beating Venus, Venus was no.1 and then no.2.....so you wanna tell me that isn't hard enough for Cali?

Calimero377
Feb 25th, 2005, 11:27 PM
You sure got a point there, the WTA was gracious enough to give venus 6 byes to the final. How easily you forget, THE TOUR WASN'T BEATING VENUS EITHER! Venus was the toughest opposition serena could have played in all those finals.
When Justine won slams, Kim was the toughest opposition for her two ask navritalova who she beat majority of the time for her many slams.


Navi won 12 of her slams on grass. Most of the time against a famous non-grass-courter ....

Calimero377
Feb 25th, 2005, 11:29 PM
:haha: :rolls: Exactly tennisfan....when Serena was beating Venus, Venus was no.1 and then no.2.....so you wanna tell me that isn't hard enough for Cali?


#1 and #2 doesn't mean a lot today. Don't forget this is the time when the Davenports and Mauresmos can reach those spots ...

vettipooh
Feb 25th, 2005, 11:31 PM
Let's see if her mystery virus disappears when she returns to the tour, before we discuss whether or not she is even capable of winning another slam. At the rate these players are improving,her slam days may already be numbered.:lol:

bandabou
Feb 25th, 2005, 11:32 PM
I see.....so Kim is a tougher opponent than Venus of course....conviniently so I guess, no Cali.

Denise4925
Feb 25th, 2005, 11:38 PM
#1 and #2 doesn't mean a lot today. Don't forget this is the time when the Davenports and Mauresmos can reach those spots ...
And your point is what? The No. 1 and 2 then were in the finals and won all of the slams and major tournaments.

Calimero377
Feb 25th, 2005, 11:41 PM
And your point is what? The No. 1 and 2 then were in the finals and won all of the slams and major tournaments.


But only after Graf had retired and Hingis started her slow decline (post-FO99) ...

Denise4925
Feb 25th, 2005, 11:43 PM
But only after Graf had retired and Hingis started her slow decline (post-FO99) ...
And what?? I still don't get your point. Besides why are you turning this thread from a Henin vs. Serena to a Graf vs. everybody?

bandabou
Feb 25th, 2005, 11:44 PM
But BOTH of them already victories over graf by then....in fact Venus almost made it three wins in a row in 1999..

bandabou
Feb 25th, 2005, 11:46 PM
But so did Enna...in fact Enna didn't really really get going until BOTH sisters were off the tour.....and in her last match against Serena, Enna got dismissed on the holiest of all tournaments: wimbledon...

Calimero377
Feb 25th, 2005, 11:48 PM
And what?? I still don't get your point. Besides why are you turning this thread from a Henin vs. Serena to a Graf vs. everybody?


You mean a "benchmark vs. everybody" thread?

Well, we always should have a look what was possible in tennis. And what might one day - one day in a distant future! - be possible again. The fusion of power and grace. Maybe the redeemer has been born already but we just don't know it? Maybe a young kid, 4 or 5 years old only today which will set the tennis world alight some day as Graf did some 20 years ago?

Calimero377
Feb 25th, 2005, 11:52 PM
But BOTH of them already victories over graf by then....in fact Venus almost made it three wins in a row in 1999..

Almost?
Even an over-the-hill Graf won at Wimbledon against a young and fresh Venus who went on to win the event the next two years. That tells us a lot about the level of women's tennis in 2000 & 2001 ... :eek:

R&J
Feb 25th, 2005, 11:54 PM
And what?? I still don't get your point. Besides why are you turning this thread from a Henin vs. Serena to a Graf vs. everybody?

Cause he is Gunther Parche in my mind. He has to turn everything into a Graf discussion. You can almost tell by his post that it hurts him to see other players celebrated. No wonder why Graf got married and moved to the states, to get away from him.

bandabou
Feb 25th, 2005, 11:57 PM
Probably......yet you want to make enna an all-time great when she can't even beat those bad and unuseful players.....and can't even make finals at wimbledon...is she really that much different than Seles? Maybe a Seles-lite, only thing is that she plays one-handed....their results on grass sure are comparable and much alike, though.

Fingon
Feb 25th, 2005, 11:58 PM
Enna works harder than Serena, but Serena is the one with more majors....hmmm.....so Serena won by luck?

how about being longer in the tour?

VeeDaQueen
Feb 26th, 2005, 12:55 AM
Enna works harder than Serena, but Serena is the one with more majors....hmmm.....so Serena won by luck?

Serena has more natural talent.

Brooks.
Feb 26th, 2005, 12:57 AM
No, she won because she had to play big sis only most of the time ...

this has to be one of the most idiotic theories i have ever read............HELLO VENUS BEAT EVERYONE IN 2002 ON A CONSISTENT BASIS EXCEPT SERENA...........im sorry but only a moron would argue that the second best opposition on the tour is not a challenge for the world number 1 in slam finals.......just because their finals were not high quality does not mean that they were not the two best players........if venus hadnt been around serena would have had many more of those shit finals of 6-0 6-1 scores that you so preciously cherish (you constantly bring up the dumbest graf slam finals just b/c she won easily) so get a freaking reality check.....SERENA BEAT THE SECOND BEST PLAYER ON THE TOUR IN FOUR MAJOR FINALS IN A ROW WHICH IS MORE THAN YOU CAN SAY ABOUT YOUR PRECIOUS GRAF NOW ISNT IT. :wavey: :rolleyes: :devil: :lol:

tennisjunky
Feb 26th, 2005, 01:02 AM
I emphatically, strongly, straight out hate 'enna' as a nick name for Justine!!!!

vettipooh
Feb 26th, 2005, 01:36 AM
I emphatically, strongly, straight out hate 'enna' as a nick name for Justine!!!!Its not really a nickname. Justine pronounces her last name Henin, as ( enna and is called Justine enna-(h)ardenne. Cali just likes to say "enna".

Serena!
Feb 26th, 2005, 01:38 AM
I don't think she ever will. I just don't think Justine will even be able to win Wimbledon. Even if she did, Serena is much "greater" than Justine, never.

Wannabeknowitall
Feb 26th, 2005, 01:48 AM
She can win Wimbledon. She got to that first final by playing all out. Her backhand was scary during the match against Capriati. She would have to be agressive. Come to net more, she has the game where she approach the net on spinned and flat shots. That should help her. Use her slice. Maybe watch some Steffi Graf tapes to see when to use the slice and when to go flat.

Denise4925
Feb 26th, 2005, 02:31 AM
this has to be one of the most idiotic theories i have ever read............HELLO VENUS BEAT EVERYONE IN 2002 ON A CONSISTENT BASIS EXCEPT SERENA...........im sorry but only a moron would argue that the second best opposition on the tour is not a challenge for the world number 1 in slam finals.......just because their finals were not high quality does not mean that they were not the two best players........if venus hadnt been around serena would have had many more of those shit finals of 6-0 6-1 scores that you so preciously cherish (you constantly bring up the dumbest graf slam finals just b/c she won easily) so get a freaking reality check.....SERENA BEAT THE SECOND BEST PLAYER ON THE TOUR IN FOUR MAJOR FINALS IN A ROW WHICH IS MORE THAN YOU CAN SAY ABOUT YOUR PRECIOUS GRAF NOW ISNT IT. :wavey: :rolleyes: :devil: :lol:
:worship: :worship: :worship:

Denise4925
Feb 26th, 2005, 02:32 AM
I emphatically, strongly, straight out hate 'enna' as a nick name for Justine!!!!
Me too. :worship:

Denise4925
Feb 26th, 2005, 02:34 AM
Its not really a nickname. Justine pronounces her last name Henin, as ( enna and is called Justine enna-(h)ardenne. Cali just likes to say "enna".
Well can't we just type Henin and pronounce it enna in our heads when we read it? Like we don't type fone for phone, but we pronounce it fone in our heads when we read it. :p :lol:

vettipooh
Feb 26th, 2005, 02:51 AM
Well can't we just type Henin and pronounce it enna in our heads when we read it? Like we don't type fone for phone, but we pronounce it fone in our heads when we read it. :p :lol:I agree. :lol:

Calimero377
Feb 26th, 2005, 04:21 AM
Well can't we just type Henin and pronounce it enna in our heads when we read it? ...

Why not type "Enna" then, Deneeze?

:confused:

Brooks.
Feb 26th, 2005, 04:31 AM
Why not type "Enna" then, Deneeze?

:confused:

u really dont want a good reputation anymore do you ;) :lol: :confused: :lol: :wavey: i have to say that i did laugh a little though

Calimero377
Feb 26th, 2005, 04:33 AM
this has to be one of the most idiotic theories i have ever read............HELLO VENUS BEAT EVERYONE IN 2002 ON A CONSISTENT BASIS EXCEPT SERENA...........im sorry but only a moron would argue that the second best opposition on the tour is not a challenge for the world number 1 in slam finals.......just because their finals were not high quality does not mean that they were not the two best players........


After Graf had retired and Hingis started her down-slide women's tennis lacked completely in quality (until the Belgians and the Russians arrived bigtime). Of course Serena and Venus were the best players for a short time. And Sir Richard decided who would win the finals - Serena or Venus.
Those finals were the most forgettable finals of the last 25 years. They weren't classics like Wimbledon 93, 95, FO 92, 96, 99 or USO 95 for example. And they were no awesome blow-out performances as was FO 88, Wim 88, Wim 92 or AO 94. I'd say those Williams slam wins only count 50 % each ...

xr6turbo
Feb 26th, 2005, 04:56 AM
After Graf had retired and Hingis started her down-slide women's tennis lacked completely in quality (until the Belgians and the Russians arrived bigtime). Of course Serena and Venus were the best players for a short time. And Sir Richard decided who would win the finals - Serena or Venus.
Those finals were the most forgettable finals of the last 25 years. They weren't classics like Wimbledon 93, 95, FO 92, 96, 99 or USO 95 for example. And they were no awesome blow-out performances as was FO 88, Wim 88, Wim 92 or AO 94. I'd say those Williams slam wins only count 50 % each ...
:rolleyes:

Brooks.
Feb 26th, 2005, 05:02 AM
After Graf had retired and Hingis started her down-slide women's tennis lacked completely in quality (until the Belgians and the Russians arrived bigtime). Of course Serena and Venus were the best players for a short time. And Sir Richard decided who would win the finals - Serena or Venus.
Those finals were the most forgettable finals of the last 25 years. They weren't classics like Wimbledon 93, 95, FO 92, 96, 99 or USO 95 for example. And they were no awesome blow-out performances as was FO 88, Wim 88, Wim 92 or AO 94. I'd say those Williams slam wins only count 50 % each ...

why did you cut out my part about how serena beat the number 2 player in the world in four straight grand slam finals (and lost only 1 set to add to that)......could it be b/c graf never did that :confused: :wavey: ......and by the way that b.s. about how richard deciding matches.......why would he let serena win 5 finals in a row you idiot (dont you think venus would have minded :rolleyes: )

Dominic
Feb 26th, 2005, 05:38 AM
Bandadou why dont you just shut up? I dont know what youre trying to prove here but you're not doing youreself any good.

Cybelle Darkholme
Feb 26th, 2005, 05:41 AM
Look the truth is that every player who is as young as serena and Justine and even Venus has the potential to not only match serena but to match Graf and Court. The slams are waiting to won it all comes down to who prepares, who stays healthy, who trains and focuses wants it the most.

So basically every player has the chance to equal and surpass court as the greates singles slam winner ever.

There happy?

Denise4925
Feb 26th, 2005, 05:54 AM
Why not type "Enna" then, Deneeze?

:confused:
Because that's not her name, just as my name is not pronounced Deneeze, it's pronounced Daneece, but it's spelled Denise. :)

Denise4925
Feb 26th, 2005, 05:56 AM
why did you cut out my part about how serena beat the number 2 player in the world in four straight grand slam finals (and lost only 1 set to add to that)......could it be b/c graf never did that :confused: :wavey: ......and by the way that b.s. about how richard deciding matches.......why would he let serena win 5 finals in a row you idiot (dont you think venus would have minded :rolleyes: )
:haha: :haha: :haha:

PatM04
Feb 26th, 2005, 06:17 AM
Pierces, Davenports, etc?


I can assure you, with 45 career singles titles (3 slams and 1 year end champs) and most likely she'll hit 50, 35 career doubles titles (3 slams and 3 year end champs), being ranked number 1 for 57 weeks as well as finishing the year number 1 three time, and being ranked number 1 in doubles at the same time as being number 1 in singles, ANY player is honored to have their name mentioned in the same category as Lindsay's. Serena said it herself at the Aussie during her speech "there is not better champion than Lindsay Davenport".

While Henin has already matched Lindsay in number of slams (and who is to say Lindsay won't take the lead again) she has a long way to go to get to the status Lindsay has achieved in her career. She has the talent to be the champ Lindsay is but she isn't there yet. I think she can do it but at the same time I think that they'll be two totally different types of success.

Good luck to all three girls Lindsay, Justine, and Serena this year and the rest of their careers in making their mark on Womens tennis history:bounce:

Stamp Paid
Feb 26th, 2005, 06:31 AM
Um...actually yeah, if Serena were to plateau and Henin were to peak. Anything is possible.

Calimero377
Feb 26th, 2005, 10:01 AM
why did you cut out my part about how serena beat the number 2 player in the world in four straight grand slam finals (and lost only 1 set to add to that)......could it be b/c graf never did that :confused: :wavey: ......and by the way that b.s. about how richard deciding matches.......why would he let serena win 5 finals in a row you idiot (dont you think venus would have minded :rolleyes: )


Do you think Venus wants to be beaten up?

BTW, Graf beat the #2 player in the world at Wim 88, Wim 89, USO 89, AO 94, Wim 95 - in FIVE slam finals.
Even more: She beat the #1 player of the world at FO 87, Wim 92, FO 95, USO 95 (Seles co-#1), USO 96 (Seles co-#1), FO 99 - in SIX slam finals. Navi, Seles, ASV and Hingis, FOUR different #1's!!!!!!
Among those wins were a 6-0, 6-2 drubbing of the #2 (ASV at AO 94) and a 6-2, 6-1 annihilation of the #1 (Seles at Wim 92).

No, Steffi never beat her sister in 4 straight slam finals. She had to play opponents who really wanted to beat her ...

VeraNuVirgosFan
Feb 26th, 2005, 10:49 AM
bandabou, after reading the thread title 2 times, I thought you wrote "Elena". Only when I read it for the 3rd time that I realised it's "Enna".

bandabou
Feb 26th, 2005, 08:13 PM
So now Cali wants to punish Serena for facing her sister in finals? Like it's her fault that she and her sister were the best two players at the time.

And Cali wants to say that the three belgian-finals or any of the all-russian finals were memorable?

Justeenium
Feb 26th, 2005, 08:16 PM
The tally is 7 majors for Serena to 3 for Enna. Serena has all four and wimbledon twice, while Enna has just one final at Wimbledon.

Do u think that Enna will at least win one wimbledon so that we can start discussing this, ' cause we all know that no wimbledon=no great, or is she gonna go down in the same league as the Pierces, Davenports, etc?

what do u guys think?

if she wins wimbledon, she'll have a golden singles slam. That alone puts her ahead of Rena regardless of the other stats, its the same reason why Andre would be ahead of Pete

Denise4925
Feb 26th, 2005, 08:20 PM
if she wins wimbledon, she'll have a golden singles slam. That alone puts her ahead of Rena regardless of the other stats, its the same reason why Andre would be ahead of Pete
Huh?? :confused:

bandabou
Feb 26th, 2005, 08:25 PM
if she wins wimbledon, she'll have a golden singles slam. That alone puts her ahead of Rena regardless of the other stats, its the same reason why Andre would be ahead of Pete


How's that? Serena won four in a ROW, hello?!

Brooks.
Feb 26th, 2005, 08:32 PM
Do you think Venus wants to be beaten up?

BTW, Graf beat the #2 player in the world at Wim 88, Wim 89, USO 89, AO 94, Wim 95 - in FIVE slam finals.
Even more: She beat the #1 player of the world at FO 87, Wim 92, FO 95, USO 95 (Seles co-#1), USO 96 (Seles co-#1), FO 99 - in SIX slam finals. Navi, Seles, ASV and Hingis, FOUR different #1's!!!!!!
Among those wins were a 6-0, 6-2 drubbing of the #2 (ASV at AO 94) and a 6-2, 6-1 annihilation of the #1 (Seles at Wim 92).

No, Steffi never beat her sister in 4 straight slam finals. She had to play opponents who really wanted to beat her ...

you are taking this way too far.........stop implying all this bullshit about the williams just b/c you are jealous......FACE IT CALIMERO VENUS AND SERENA HAVE MADE A BIGGER IMPACT ON THE GAME THAN HENIN AND GRAF......FIFTY YEARS FROM NOW PEOPLE WILL REMEMBER THE TWO AFRICAN AMERICAN SISTERS WHO BATTLED THEIR WAY TO THE TOP OF WOMENS TENNIS...........graf is just another navratilova,evert,court,seles......serena and venus stand on their own :wavey:

Denise4925
Feb 26th, 2005, 08:33 PM
you are taking this way too far.........stop implying all this bullshit about the williams just b/c you are jealous......FACE IT CALIMERO VENUS AND SERENA HAVE MADE A BIGGER IMPACT ON THE GAME THAN HENIN AND GRAF......FIFTY YEARS FROM NOW PEOPLE WILL REMEMBER THE TWO AFRICAN AMERICAN SISTERS WHO BATTLED THEIR WAY TO THE TOP OF WOMENS TENNIS...........graf is just another navratilova,evert,court,seles......serena and venus stand on their own :wavey:
Do you want to fight today or what Vee?? :lol:

Calimero377
Feb 26th, 2005, 08:46 PM
So now Cali wants to punish Serena for facing her sister in finals? Like it's her fault that she and her sister were the best two players at the time.

And Cali wants to say that the three belgian-finals or any of the all-russian finals were memorable?


No, you can forget all the 21st century slam finals so far (with the sole exception perhaps of AO 02). Has there ever been a half-decade with less memorable slam finals than the 2000-2004 one? I don't think so.

We have to watch the slam finals from 1987-99 on video instead ...

Calimero377
Feb 26th, 2005, 08:51 PM
you are taking this way too far.........stop implying all this bullshit about the williams just b/c you are jealous......FACE IT CALIMERO VENUS AND SERENA HAVE MADE A BIGGER IMPACT ON THE GAME THAN HENIN AND GRAF....

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

....FIFTY YEARS FROM NOW PEOPLE WILL REMEMBER THE TWO AFRICAN AMERICAN SISTERS WHO BATTLED THEIR WAY TO THE TOP OF WOMENS TENNIS...........graf is just another navratilova,evert,court,seles......serena and venus stand on their own :wavey:

50 years from now people around the world will give even less a shit about whether players are "African Americans" or not. Or do you believe in a resurgence of racism in 50 years? :retard:

bandabou
Feb 26th, 2005, 08:57 PM
No, you can forget all the 21st century slam finals so far (with the sole exception perhaps of AO 02). Has there ever been a half-decade with less memorable slam finals than the 2000-2004 one? I don't think so.

We have to watch the slam finals from 1987-99 on video instead ...


Tjaa....so much for Enna reaching trascendent form...

Brooks.
Feb 26th, 2005, 09:34 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:



50 years from now people around the world will give even less a shit about whether players are "African Americans" or not. Or do you believe in a resurgence of racism in 50 years? :retard:

its not about their race or even the fact that they are sisters........its about coming from nothing and fighting your way to everything......people 50 years from now will remember that venus,serena,althea, and arthur changed the sport forever.....people dont remember stats cali......graf just simply did not have the cultural impact that vee and rena did except maybe in germany....everything graf did has been done before and you sure as hell cannot say that about venus and serena :wavey:

Justeenium
Feb 26th, 2005, 10:22 PM
How's that? Serena won four in a ROW, hello?!
does Serena have a golden singles slam?

bandabou
Feb 26th, 2005, 10:26 PM
Now I know what you mean.....but four in a row is still four in a row.

Calimero377
Feb 26th, 2005, 10:27 PM
its not about their race or even the fact that they are sisters........its about coming from nothing and fighting your way to everything......people 50 years from now will remember that venus,serena,althea, and arthur changed the sport forever.....people dont remember stats cali......graf just simply did not have the cultural impact that vee and rena did except maybe in germany....everything graf did has been done before and you sure as hell cannot say that about venus and serena :wavey:


Coming from nowhere? The Williams sisters had sponsors already when they were 10 years old. Don't believe the Richard W. hype machine (about bullets flying around the kids when they were exercising .... :lol: :lol: ).
In which way did "Vee" and "See" and Gibson and Ashe "change the sport forever"? Maybe in the U.S.? Their "cultural impact" in Germany, India, China is zero. Don't forget, the U.S. is not the world. Most of the world is not interested in the development of race relations in the U.S.A.

Speaking about Graf - seeing the French crowd cheer a German girl at the anniversary day of the German attack on France during WW2, almost adopting Graf as a Frenchwoman: That is cultural impact in Europe ....

BTW, a Golden Grand Slam has never been done before. Nor has winning each slam at least 4 times. Nor being #1 for 377 weeks, 186 of them consecutively. In contrast to that everything what Vee and See have done has been done many times before already.

Calimero377
Feb 26th, 2005, 10:28 PM
Now I know what you mean.....but four in a row is still four in a row.


When did Serena win the Olympic gold, Bandumbo ...?

bandabou
Feb 26th, 2005, 10:32 PM
So,so.....now Olympic gold is bigger than Wimbledon? Cali's changing his tune everyday...

Calimero377
Feb 26th, 2005, 10:39 PM
So,so.....now Olympic gold is bigger than Wimbledon? Cali's changing his tune everyday...


What about


Originally Posted by Justeenium:
"if she wins wimbledon, she'll have a golden singles slam. That alone puts her ahead of Rena regardless of the other stats, its the same reason why Andre would be ahead of Pete"

Bandumbo didn't understand?

Brooks.
Feb 26th, 2005, 10:39 PM
When did Serena win the Olympic gold, Bandumbo ...?

um.......how about she did win an olympic gold medal :lol:

and in regards to the 99' final........u didnt hear them chanting steffi steffi until after hingis acted like a total bitch......they would have cheered on any player that was playing hingis that day

please enlighten me with steffi's cultural impact..........german girl wins a bunch of slams.....i fail to see the uniqueness of what she brought to the sport :wavey:

bandabou
Feb 26th, 2005, 10:43 PM
Indeed....and what Enna has done, has already been done and better at that too..yet she is still the 3rd best player in history.

It's true, seles never won wimbledon in her best years, but she still was able to do well at the other three for years...Enna? can't win wimbledon, only one final, and heck her peak seems to have lasted for only like 11 months...

bandabou
Feb 26th, 2005, 10:45 PM
What about


Originally Posted by Justeenium:
"if she wins wimbledon, she'll have a golden singles slam. That alone puts her ahead of Rena regardless of the other stats, its the same reason why Andre would be ahead of Pete"

Bandumbo didn't understand?


Aha....ok....so 4 majors and olympic gold are enough to overcome 7 majors, including two wimbledons, at least?

Calimero377
Feb 26th, 2005, 10:50 PM
um.......how about she did win an olympic gold medal :lol:

and in regards to the 99' final........u didnt hear them chanting steffi steffi until after hingis acted like a total bitch......they would have cheered on any player that was playing hingis that day

please enlighten me with steffi's cultural impact..........german girl wins a bunch of slams.....i fail to see the uniqueness of what she brought to the sport :wavey:


Graf (Germany) being the crowd favourite in Roland Garros (France) from 1987 on (1987!! 1992!!! 1995!!!! 1996!!!!! 1999!!!!!!!!!!!) IS cultural impact. At least for everybody who has at least a basic knowledge of Europe's history in the last 200 years ....

What did Williamsx2 do in comparison? :confused:

BTW, Hingis acted like a total bitch before the tournament, before the final and right from the start of the final (racket throwing). On the other hand Graf was supported against Navi, Seles, ASV by the French crowd. Because the French appreciate class and grace.

bandabou
Feb 26th, 2005, 10:52 PM
That was indeed huge....although I don't think the crowd was really pro graf from the beginning at the ' 99 final, cali.

Brooks.
Feb 26th, 2005, 10:56 PM
Graf (Germany) being the crowd favourite in Roland Garros (France) from 1987 on (1987!! 1992!!! 1995!!!! 1996!!!!! 1999!!!!!!!!!!!) IS cultural impact. At least for everybody who has at least a basic knowledge of Europe's history in the last 200 years ....

What did Williamsx2 do in comparison? :confused:

BTW, Hingis acted like a total bitch before the tournament, before the final and right from the start of the final (racket throwing). On the other hand Graf was supported against Navi, Seles, ASV by the French crowd. Because the French appreciate class and grace.

drop the history lesson impression........nobodys impressed......u think all those french people were thinking..."WOW I AM PULLING FOR A GERMAN PERSON ON THE ANNIVERSARY OF BLAH BLAH BLAH"...oh please, they were pulling for graf b/c hingis was a bitch and graf was the underdog point blank

Calimero377
Feb 26th, 2005, 11:05 PM
That was indeed huge....although I don't think the crowd was really pro graf from the beginning at the ' 99 final, cali.


Wrong as always.

"... When Hingis held at the cost of only one point for 2-0, she seemed safely back in command, closing in rapidly on the title she coveted above all others. But on the first point of the third game, she lost her bearings. All along, the crowd had been fervently behind her opponent, cheering with wild enthusiasm for Graf, giving Hingis little more than reserved rounds of applause. In a dangerous lapse in judgment, Hingis changed the emotional texture of the match irreversibly. ... "
(Steve Flink, "The Greatest Tennis Matches of the 20th Century", Rutledge Books. Inc., 1999)

The rest is history.


:worship: :worship: :worship:

Calimero377
Feb 26th, 2005, 11:07 PM
drop the history lesson impression........nobodys impressed......u think all those french people were thinking..."WOW I AM PULLING FOR A GERMAN PERSON ON THE ANNIVERSARY OF BLAH BLAH BLAH"...oh please, they were pulling for graf b/c hingis was a bitch and graf was the underdog point blank


Graf never was an underdog post-86. Never.

bandabou
Feb 26th, 2005, 11:10 PM
Nice....cali...but Serena vs Enna....we already know the graf history.....

Brooks.
Feb 26th, 2005, 11:16 PM
Graf never was an underdog post-86. Never.

wow you are in more denial than i even had begun to think........graf was never an underdog even with her injuries and the fact that she was losing to joe blow nobodies left and right??????????....please hingis was number 1 in the world with five slams in less than three years (winning clay titles leading up to that french open by the way).....graf was the underdog by far and all the commentators and experts would agree with me on that

Calimero377
Feb 26th, 2005, 11:25 PM
wow you are in more denial than i even had begun to think........graf was never an underdog even with her injuries and the fact that she was losing to joe blow nobodies left and right??????????....please hingis was number 1 in the world with five slams in less than three years (winning clay titles leading up to that french open by the way).....graf was the underdog by far and all the commentators and experts would agree with me on that


Graf had beaten Hingis like a drum in Philadelphia 7 months earlier (6-1, 4-6, 6-0). And she lost to her in Tokyo 1999 only after a 6-3, 2-6, 4-2 lead when she injured herself. Graf had beaten world #2 and 3# at FO quarters and semis. She had won 5 FOs until then and Hingis zero. With those credentials you are no "underdog by far".

Graf was cheered because she had shown class and grace throughout her career. Whereas Hingis' character defects were well-known too ...

Brooks.
Feb 26th, 2005, 11:35 PM
Graf had beaten Hingis like a drum in Philadelphia 7 months earlier (6-1, 4-6, 6-0). And she lost to her in Tokyo 1999 only after a 6-3, 2-6, 4-2 lead when she injured herself. Graf had beaten world #2 and 3# at FO quarters and semis. She had won 5 FOs until then and Hingis zero. With those credentials you are no "underdog by far".

Graf was cheered because she had shown class and grace throughout her career. Whereas Hingis' character defects were well-known too ...

u are exhausting cali.........i am not saying that graf was not a good player in 99' but hingis was better up to that point......therefore graf was the underdog in that specific final

oh and what do the grayish blue dots mean in the rep pts. section, and if you were honestly offended by me calling you an idiot then i apologize ;) :wavey:

Denise4925
Feb 26th, 2005, 11:38 PM
See I told y'all Cali would turn this into a Graf vs. everybody else thread. I give props to Bandy for trying to lead it back to the original topic, but as soon as y'all respond to one of his posts, he sucks you back in. :lol:

Stamp Paid
Feb 26th, 2005, 11:41 PM
Once again, a thread ruined by the ubiquitous Steffi Graf.

bandabou
Feb 26th, 2005, 11:44 PM
So conclusion: Despite all talk about 3rd best player, this and that...until Enna can start reachingn wimbledon finals again and then win one, she's just another Pierce, Seles, etc.....no all-time great, just a blip on the radar....

Brooks.
Feb 26th, 2005, 11:56 PM
So conclusion: Despite all talk about 3rd best player, this and that...until Enna can start reachingn wimbledon finals again and then win one, she's just another Pierce, Seles, etc.....no all-time great, just a blip on the radar....

:rocker: :yeah: :bounce: :worship: u nailed it bandabou.....justine is just not on the slam level as serena point blank

Fingon
Feb 27th, 2005, 02:08 AM
Indeed....and what Enna has done, has already been done and better at that too..yet she is still the 3rd best player in history.

It's true, seles never won wimbledon in her best years, but she still was able to do well at the other three for years...Enna? can't win wimbledon, only one final, and heck her peak seems to have lasted for only like 11 months...

hmmm, and how do you know she can't win Wimbledon?

I remember people saying she couldn't win in american hardcourts and she comes and wins San Diego, Toronto and the US Open, and Indian Wells the next year.

And how do you know how long her peak lasted? she was at her peak when she got ill, how do you know what kind of form she will have when she comes back.
How long did Serena's peak last? from RG 2002 to Wimbledon 2003, 13 months, two more, it took her 2 more months to get injured.

Some times you twist the facts in a way that really amazes me. The strangest thing is that you don't need this bullshit to defend Serena, her results speak by themselves, but if you are trying to disminish the accomplishment of someone that OBVIOUSLY hasn't achieved the same, yet, then you are not too sure.

I don't really see the point of making predictions, who can predict? if Justine didn't get ill what would have happened? maybe she would have won the remaining 3 GSs (certainly possible) and at this point would have 6 titles, and who knows about Australian Open. Of course she could have won none.

She might win 10 more or none, so can Serena, either can break a leg and their careers would be over.

FYI, Justine has had only 3 full years in the tour. She started in 1999 but only play a few tournaments (winning the first one, something that Serena did not do).

In 2000 she got injured and missed most of the season.

in 2004 we know what happened (she still won a GS, IW and the Olympics, along with Dubai and Sydney).

So I don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

LDVTennis
Feb 27th, 2005, 03:39 AM
No, Steffi never beat her sister in 4 straight slam finals. She had to play opponents who really wanted to beat her ...

Brilliant!

LDVTennis
Feb 27th, 2005, 04:33 AM
its not about their race or even the fact that they are sisters........its about coming from nothing and fighting your way to everything......people 50 years from now will remember that venus,serena,althea, and arthur changed the sport forever.....people dont remember stats cali......graf just simply did not have the cultural impact that vee and rena did except maybe in germany....everything graf did has been done before and you sure as hell cannot say that about venus and serena :wavey:

If you actually believe what you are saying, then please explain why it is that even today most casual tennis fans would be able to tell who Chris Evert is, but not who Althea Gibson is.

In womens' tennis history, Althea Gibson is primarily remembered for breaking the racial barrier in tennis. She's not remembered as much for the number of majors she won, an incredible shot, or some other tennis accomplishment or feat. And, that's why her name doesn't often come up when tennis, as a set of records or as a set of techniques, is discussed in the broadcast booth.

Whose names do come up and keep coming up? Court, GRAF, Martina N., Chris Evert, Goolagong, Wills Moody, and a few others. Why Court? Because she won 24 majors (the most ever) and a Calendar Year Grand Slam and she was a great all-court player. Why Graf? Because she won 22 majors (second most ever), a Calendar Year Grand Slam, and each major at least four times. She held the No. 1 ranking for the most weeks in total and the most weeks consecutively. Moreover, she had a remarkable slice backhand and the best forehand ever. Why Martina N.? Because she won 18 majors, had the second most weeks at No. 1, both total and consecutively, went on a run of 8 majors, and she had a spectacular net game. Why Chris? Because she won 18 majors, won the most French Opens ever, had a phenomenal winning streak on clay, and she made the two-handed backhand popular. Are you catching on?

Breaking racial barriers in the abstract is a great thing. But, ultimately it has nothing to do with tennis. More power to the Williams sisters for bringing some color-balance to the sport. But, in the long run, their chances of being remembered (in the broadcast booth, by other tennis experts, and by tennis fans who follow the sport more than casually) will depend almost entirely on the records they set or break and/or the remarkable parts of their game.

Based on what I've seen, they haven't created many memories with the shots they can hit. Remember the standards are high in this category: the Graf forehand, the Graf slice, Martina's volley game, and the mechanics of Chris' backhand.

So, Venus' and Serena's chances of being remembered in tennis terms will probably depend in the end almost entirely on the records they set or break. Unfortunately, here the standards are even higher: you have two of the greatest ever with 24 and 22 majors respectively; you have one player with total weeks at No. 1 of nearly 400, about 180 consecutively; you have two of the most beloved champions ever at 18 majors each; you have one player who has won each major at least four times; you have two of the greatest ever with 9 and 7 Wimbledon's respectively; and, you have two of the greatest ever with a Calendar Year Grand Slam. You beginning to see the big picture.

Honestly speaking, I think Venus has squandered all her chances of being remembered in these terms. Serena's best chance could come from winning a Calendar Year Grand Slam. Don't think it is going to happen. But, she has a chance. Maybe, then, she could hope her name will be mentioned in series with that of Graf and Court. Anything less probably dooms her to the tennis archive where her name may not become the stuff of tennis broadcasts or long appreciation threads in the Blast from the Past section of this board, but it may become the subject of a documentary, just like Althea Gibson's name is now.

Brooks.
Feb 27th, 2005, 04:48 AM
tennis is bigger than a shot or a certain stat...........sports aren't about that......they are about entertainment and achieveing dreams.....they are meant to inspire people......the only reason we have sports is b/c the general public watches them....the most famous athletes have inspired people to do great things.

u are looking at it from the stand point of a tennis commentator or some diehard tennis fan who knows everything.........the general public will remember venus and serena because they inspired (not only black people) people to reach for their dreams.......venus and serena fit into the same category as greats such as micheal jordan,babe ruth,etc........these atheletes transcend their sports and will always be remembered.......no one will care about the graf forehand 50 years from now

bandabou
Feb 28th, 2005, 09:05 PM
If you actually believe what you are saying, then please explain why it is that even today most casual tennis fans would be able to tell who Chris Evert is, but not who Althea Gibson is.

In womens' tennis history, Althea Gibson is primarily remembered for breaking the racial barrier in tennis. She's not remembered as much for the number of majors she won, an incredible shot, or some other tennis accomplishment or feat. And, that's why her name doesn't often come up when tennis, as a set of records or as a set of techniques, is discussed in the broadcast booth.

Whose names do come up and keep coming up? Court, GRAF, Martina N., Chris Evert, Goolagong, Wills Moody, and a few others. Why Court? Because she won 24 majors (the most ever) and a Calendar Year Grand Slam and she was a great all-court player. Why Graf? Because she won 22 majors (second most ever), a Calendar Year Grand Slam, and each major at least four times. She held the No. 1 ranking for the most weeks in total and the most weeks consecutively. Moreover, she had a remarkable slice backhand and the best forehand ever. Why Martina N.? Because she won 18 majors, had the second most weeks at No. 1, both total and consecutively, went on a run of 8 majors, and she had a spectacular net game. Why Chris? Because she won 18 majors, won the most French Opens ever, had a phenomenal winning streak on clay, and she made the two-handed backhand popular. Are you catching on?

Breaking racial barriers in the abstract is a great thing. But, ultimately it has nothing to do with tennis. More power to the Williams sisters for bringing some color-balance to the sport. But, in the long run, their chances of being remembered (in the broadcast booth, by other tennis experts, and by tennis fans who follow the sport more than casually) will depend almost entirely on the records they set or break and/or the remarkable parts of their game.

Based on what I've seen, they haven't created many memories with the shots they can hit. Remember the standards are high in this category: the Graf forehand, the Graf slice, Martina's volley game, and the mechanics of Chris' backhand.

So, Venus' and Serena's chances of being remembered in tennis terms will probably depend in the end almost entirely on the records they set or break. Unfortunately, here the standards are even higher: you have two of the greatest ever with 24 and 22 majors respectively; you have one player with total weeks at No. 1 of nearly 400, about 180 consecutively; you have two of the most beloved champions ever at 18 majors each; you have one player who has won each major at least four times; you have two of the greatest ever with 9 and 7 Wimbledon's respectively; and, you have two of the greatest ever with a Calendar Year Grand Slam. You beginning to see the big picture.

Honestly speaking, I think Venus has squandered all her chances of being remembered in these terms. Serena's best chance could come from winning a Calendar Year Grand Slam. Don't think it is going to happen. But, she has a chance. Maybe, then, she could hope her name will be mentioned in series with that of Graf and Court. Anything less probably dooms her to the tennis archive where her name may not become the stuff of tennis broadcasts or long appreciation threads in the Blast from the Past section of this board, but it may become the subject of a documentary, just like Althea Gibson's name is now.

Nice.....very nice. Of course, you not being black or african-american, doesn't have any reason to remember the sisters or even althea gibson...you don't have any link with them whatsoever...and obviously neither do any of the people in the booth...' cause they fall in the same category as you.

I think Serena already has shown she mastered a shot, heck, people are already talking about it: the Serena serve.....so I think she WILL come up in talks regarding technique too.

bandabou
Feb 28th, 2005, 09:07 PM
hmmm, and how do you know she can't win Wimbledon?

I remember people saying she couldn't win in american hardcourts and she comes and wins San Diego, Toronto and the US Open, and Indian Wells the next year.

And how do you know how long her peak lasted? she was at her peak when she got ill, how do you know what kind of form she will have when she comes back.
How long did Serena's peak last? from RG 2002 to Wimbledon 2003, 13 months, two more, it took her 2 more months to get injured.

Some times you twist the facts in a way that really amazes me. The strangest thing is that you don't need this bullshit to defend Serena, her results speak by themselves, but if you are trying to disminish the accomplishment of someone that OBVIOUSLY hasn't achieved the same, yet, then you are not too sure.

I don't really see the point of making predictions, who can predict? if Justine didn't get ill what would have happened? maybe she would have won the remaining 3 GSs (certainly possible) and at this point would have 6 titles, and who knows about Australian Open. Of course she could have won none.

She might win 10 more or none, so can Serena, either can break a leg and their careers would be over.

FYI, Justine has had only 3 full years in the tour. She started in 1999 but only play a few tournaments (winning the first one, something that Serena did not do).

In 2000 she got injured and missed most of the season.

in 2004 we know what happened (she still won a GS, IW and the Olympics, along with Dubai and Sydney).

So I don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

Don't talk to me about that....it's Cali with whom you should be angry.

K.U.C.W-R.V
Feb 28th, 2005, 10:21 PM
Not if greatness is measured in slams...

...so no.

But never forget...

...Henin-Hardenne: its all about the TALENT not the slams. ;)

Brooks.
Feb 28th, 2005, 10:30 PM
Not if greatness is measured in slams...

...so no.

But never forget...

...Henin-Hardenne: its all about the TALENT not the slams. ;)

i'm not trying to be mean or anything but why do you have a picture of the 03' roland garros semi on your name thing........i mean to me it is just like trying to slap all the serena fans in the face (when you know how difficult that match was for us).......why not put a picture from the final :confused:

Calimero377
Feb 28th, 2005, 10:33 PM
tennis is bigger than a shot or a certain stat...........sports aren't about that......they are about entertainment and achieveing dreams.....they are meant to inspire people......the only reason we have sports is b/c the general public watches them....the most famous athletes have inspired people to do great things.

u are looking at it from the stand point of a tennis commentator or some diehard tennis fan who knows everything.........the general public will remember venus and serena because they inspired (not only black people) people to reach for their dreams.......venus and serena fit into the same category as greats such as micheal jordan,babe ruth,etc........these atheletes transcend their sports and will always be remembered.......no one will care about the graf forehand 50 years from now


Babe what?

K.U.C.W-R.V
Feb 28th, 2005, 10:40 PM
i'm not trying to be mean or anything but why do you have a picture of the 03' roland garros semi on your name thing........i mean to me it is just like trying to slap all the serena fans in the face (when you know how difficult that match was for us).......why not put a picture from the final :confused:

PLEASE CALM DOWN, Its a gentle wind-up... I'm not trying to unduly upset or enrage people.

There is nothing wrong with a bit of banter & rivalry... this is WTA tennis, not war. :)

Brooks.
Feb 28th, 2005, 10:45 PM
Babe what?

leave me alone :lol: u are exhausting :)

Calimero377
Feb 28th, 2005, 10:49 PM
leave me alone :lol: u are exhausting :)


"Babe" Ruth - I don't even know in which sport she excelled ...

:lol:

Orion
Feb 28th, 2005, 10:52 PM
Babe Ruth. Male. Baseball player. 2nd most homeruns hit in his career, and he was a pitcher on top of that, which means he wasn't expected to be a good hitter. Thus, the all-time greatest baseball player ever.

Orion
Feb 28th, 2005, 11:03 PM
I've never understood why there is so much importance placed on four consecutive grandslam wins within a calender year, when four consecutive grandslam wins without a calender year is just as impressive. The only difference is which one you start on. And frankly, the Australian doesn't seem to be the most impressive starting point.

Brooks.
Feb 28th, 2005, 11:04 PM
thanks orion for backing me up and i agree four in a row is four in a row no matter how you slice it

tennisjunky
Feb 28th, 2005, 11:25 PM
If you actually believe what you are saying, then please explain why it is that even today most casual tennis fans would be able to tell who Chris Evert is, but not who Althea Gibson is.

In womens' tennis history, Althea Gibson is primarily remembered for breaking the racial barrier in tennis. She's not remembered as much for the number of majors she won, an incredible shot, or some other tennis accomplishment or feat. And, that's why her name doesn't often come up when tennis, as a set of records or as a set of techniques, is discussed in the broadcast booth.

Whose names do come up and keep coming up? Court, GRAF, Martina N., Chris Evert, Goolagong, Wills Moody, and a few others. Why Court? Because she won 24 majors (the most ever) and a Calendar Year Grand Slam and she was a great all-court player. Why Graf? Because she won 22 majors (second most ever), a Calendar Year Grand Slam, and each major at least four times. She held the No. 1 ranking for the most weeks in total and the most weeks consecutively. Moreover, she had a remarkable slice backhand and the best forehand ever. Why Martina N.? Because she won 18 majors, had the second most weeks at No. 1, both total and consecutively, went on a run of 8 majors, and she had a spectacular net game. Why Chris? Because she won 18 majors, won the most French Opens ever, had a phenomenal winning streak on clay, and she made the two-handed backhand popular. Are you catching on?

Breaking racial barriers in the abstract is a great thing. But, ultimately it has nothing to do with tennis. More power to the Williams sisters for bringing some color-balance to the sport. But, in the long run, their chances of being remembered (in the broadcast booth, by other tennis experts, and by tennis fans who follow the sport more than casually) will depend almost entirely on the records they set or break and/or the remarkable parts of their game.

Based on what I've seen, they haven't created many memories with the shots they can hit. Remember the standards are high in this category: the Graf forehand, the Graf slice, Martina's volley game, and the mechanics of Chris' backhand.

So, Venus' and Serena's chances of being remembered in tennis terms will probably depend in the end almost entirely on the records they set or break. Unfortunately, here the standards are even higher: you have two of the greatest ever with 24 and 22 majors respectively; you have one player with total weeks at No. 1 of nearly 400, about 180 consecutively; you have two of the most beloved champions ever at 18 majors each; you have one player who has won each major at least four times; you have two of the greatest ever with 9 and 7 Wimbledon's respectively; and, you have two of the greatest ever with a Calendar Year Grand Slam. You beginning to see the big picture.

Honestly speaking, I think Venus has squandered all her chances of being remembered in these terms. Serena's best chance could come from winning a Calendar Year Grand Slam. Don't think it is going to happen. But, she has a chance. Maybe, then, she could hope her name will be mentioned in series with that of Graf and Court. Anything less probably dooms her to the tennis archive where her name may not become the stuff of tennis broadcasts or long appreciation threads in the Blast from the Past section of this board, but it may become the subject of a documentary, just like Althea Gibson's name is now.

you're trying to use history to support your line of thinking, but the problem with that is the likes of venus and serena are unprecedented. the sport has never witnessed anything in the realm of venus and serena, two sisters who were ranked both number one and two in the world!! that feat only is enough to keep them in the record books for ages. steffi, chris, and martina never had the high profile that anna K, and serena have. so that i'm not misunderstood, serena is nowhere near breaking 'some' of the records that the other greats hold, but like it or not serena's probably the most popular tennis figure the sport has ever produced. in terms of accomplishments serena has already joined an elite group of players and is one of only five women to hold all four majors at one time!!! again, she’s in the great company of Maureen Connolly, Margaret Court, Martina Navratilova and Graf. One of only five women is very select company and if that was the only thing she ever did that would be enough to keep her name alive in the history of the sport, but thankfully serena's resume speaks for itself. If it's historical achievements you're after then consider this:
-serena is only the second women ever to come from match point down to win two different grand slams
-With her seventh Grand Slam singles championship, serena moved up to seventh on the Open Era list for most Grand Slam singles titles won, tied with Australian Evonne Goolagong
-After winning Oz Serena became the FIRST player in HISTORY to jump from outside the top 5 to No. 2 AFTER JUST ONE EVENT!!!!

to the dismay of a lot of people, the fact is that both serena AND venus have made their impact and will FOREVER be remembered in their sport for what they've accomplished. as to what the future holds, at this point it's all icing on the cake.

Fingon
Mar 1st, 2005, 01:15 AM
Don't talk to me about that....it's Cali with whom you should be angry.

1) I am not angry.

2) You said what I answered to.

3) I don't even bother reading Cali.

Philbo
Mar 1st, 2005, 01:51 AM
Brilliant!

Another example of LDV not reading Cali's posts!!

Go LDV, you make a good lapdog for Cali!:lol: :lol:

bandabou
Mar 1st, 2005, 04:35 PM
And then LDV, where does that leave Enna? I mean....she is in a even worse position than Serena, resultswise, yet people are acting and talking like she's the greatest of the greatest....explain that to us, if you don't mind?

rjd1111
Mar 1st, 2005, 05:35 PM
In a sense she's SUPPOSED too....she's more talented, she's better at her peak than Serena, has beaten better oposition in her major finals, etc......so yeah, if she's so much better than Serena, shouldn't be hard..

Besides...what do they say about injuries and greats? Only the great ones bounce back and reach a their old level...considering how Enna is already greater than Serena, and even Serena has won a major since coming back, enna should have an easier time...




You are Joking , Right?

bandabou
Mar 1st, 2005, 05:40 PM
You are Joking , Right?

Not my words.....those words were uttered by some very famous posters on this board.

Calimero377
Mar 1st, 2005, 05:43 PM
Babe Ruth. Male. Baseball player. 2nd most homeruns hit in his career, and he was a pitcher on top of that, which means he wasn't expected to be a good hitter. Thus, the all-time greatest baseball player ever.


Baseball?
The game with two baskets at each side of the field?
Where the Harlem Globetrotters are World Champions?

bandabou
Mar 1st, 2005, 05:45 PM
:lol: No cali....the OTHER baseball...the one you're talking is the one Dirk Nowitski plays....but I shouldn't be surprised that you don't know about baseball....Germany never produced a decent baseball player, that's why.

Calimero377
Mar 1st, 2005, 05:49 PM
I've never understood why there is so much importance placed on four consecutive grandslam wins within a calender year, when four consecutive grandslam wins without a calender year is just as impressive. The only difference is which one you start on. And frankly, the Australian doesn't seem to be the most impressive starting point.


The chance to win a real Grand Slam is only one third of winning a non-calendar year slam.

BTW, winning a GOLDEN Grand Slam is about 40 times more difficult than winning a Grand Slam considering that the Olympics are only every 4 years and that at least 10 serious contenders usually are in the Olympic field.

Did I mention already that Graf won the Golden Grand Slam in 1988?

Calimero377
Mar 1st, 2005, 05:52 PM
thanks orion for backing me up and i agree four in a row is four in a row no matter how you slice it


With this retarded argument you can as easily say that winning AO, FO, Wim and USO in different years is winning AO, FO, Wim and USO no matter how you slice it ...

:lol:

(OMG, how dumb will it get today .... ?)

bandabou
Mar 1st, 2005, 05:58 PM
Blah blah Cali...all that talk is just to hide the fact that you can't bring yourself to say and accept that Justine's closer to Seles on her results on grass ( ZERO wimbledons, ONE wimbledon final) than she is to Graf...despite all the talk of 3rd best player this and that....and she's already entered prrime-years..

Calimero377
Mar 1st, 2005, 05:59 PM
you're trying to use history to support your line of thinking, but the problem with that is the likes of venus and serena are unprecedented. the sport has never witnessed anything in the realm of venus and serena, two sisters who were ranked both number one and two in the world!! that feat only is enough to keep them in the record books for ages. steffi, chris, and martina never had the high profile that anna K, and serena have. ...

:lol: :lol: :lol:

.... so that i'm not misunderstood, serena is nowhere near breaking 'some' of the records that the other greats hold, but like it or not serena's probably the most popular tennis figure the sport has ever produced.

<whisky spill>
:rolls: :rolls: :rolls: :haha: :haha: :haha:

Junky, do you believe this BS?
Serena could walk through a shopping mall in Europe and nobody would recognize her. I don't think Graf could do the same in Europe, the U.S. or India ...


:lol:

Calimero377
Mar 1st, 2005, 06:01 PM
1) I am not angry.

2) You said what I answered to.

3) I don't even bother reading Cali.


That is a mistake, son.
You could learn a lot. And, boy, you neeeeed that ....

:wavey:

Calimero377
Mar 1st, 2005, 06:04 PM
You are Joking , Right?


Bandyboy is ALWAYS joking.

Or when was the last time when you read a serious post from him?

There you are ...

Calimero377
Mar 1st, 2005, 06:06 PM
Blah blah Cali...all that talk is just to hide the fact that you can't bring yourself to say and accept that Justine's closer to Seles on her results on grass ( ZERO wimbledons, ONE wimbledon final) than she is to Graf...despite all the talk of 3rd best player this and that....and she's already entered prrime-years..


Bandyboy, you seem to be obsessed with this Enna girl. :eek:

bandabou
Mar 1st, 2005, 06:06 PM
Still not answering me Cali....

bandabou
Mar 1st, 2005, 06:07 PM
Bandyboy, you seem to be obsessed with this Enna girl. :eek:

Blah blah....answer the question. How can your 3rd best player be so comparable with a player whom you don't even have as a top 10 player?

Calimero377
Mar 1st, 2005, 06:09 PM
Still not answering me Cali....

OK.
Justine's closer to Seles on her results on grass ( ZERO wimbledons, ONE wimbledon final) than she is to Graf.

Wojtek
Mar 1st, 2005, 06:11 PM
The tally is 7 majors for Serena to 3 for Enna. Serena has all four and wimbledon twice, while Enna has just one final at Wimbledon.

Do u think that Enna will at least win one wimbledon so that we can start discussing this, ' cause we all know that no wimbledon=no great, or is she gonna go down in the same league as the Pierces, Davenports, etc?

what do u guys think?

Troll is back :rolleyes:

bandabou
Mar 1st, 2005, 06:14 PM
OK.
Justine's closer to Seles on her results on grass ( ZERO wimbledons, ONE wimbledon final) than she is to Graf.

And yet I, calimero, still want to argue that she is one of the all-time greats and the 3rd best player ever.....

Calimero377
Mar 1st, 2005, 06:45 PM
And yet I, calimero, still want to argue that she is one of the all-time greats and the 3rd best player ever.....


Well, when certain posters have a gut feeling that peak Seles was better than peak Graf although the facts say otherwise - why can't other posters have the gut feeling that peak Enna is better than peak Serena although the facts say otherwise?
:confused:

DA FOREHAND
Mar 1st, 2005, 07:24 PM
If you actually believe what you are saying, then please explain why it is that even today most casual tennis fans would be able to tell who Chris Evert is, but not who Althea Gibson is.

In womens' tennis history, Althea Gibson is primarily remembered for breaking the racial barrier in tennis. She's not remembered as much for the number of majors she won, an incredible shot, or some other tennis accomplishment or feat. And, that's why her name doesn't often come up when tennis, as a set of records or as a set of techniques, is discussed in the broadcast booth.

Whose names do come up and keep coming up? Court, GRAF, Martina N., Chris Evert, Goolagong, Wills Moody, and a few others. Why Court? Because she won 24 majors (the most ever) and a Calendar Year Grand Slam and she was a great all-court player. Why Graf? Because she won 22 majors (second most ever), a Calendar Year Grand Slam, and each major at least four times. She held the No. 1 ranking for the most weeks in total and the most weeks consecutively. Moreover, she had a remarkable slice backhand and the best forehand ever. Why Martina N.? Because she won 18 majors, had the second most weeks at No. 1, both total and consecutively, went on a run of 8 majors, and she had a spectacular net game. Why Chris? Because she won 18 majors, won the most French Opens ever, had a phenomenal winning streak on clay, and she made the two-handed backhand popular. Are you catching on?

Breaking racial barriers in the abstract is a great thing. But, ultimately it has nothing to do with tennis. More power to the Williams sisters for bringing some color-balance to the sport. But, in the long run, their chances of being remembered (in the broadcast booth, by other tennis experts, and by tennis fans who follow the sport more than casually) will depend almost entirely on the records they set or break and/or the remarkable parts of their game.

Based on what I've seen, they haven't created many memories with the shots they can hit. Remember the standards are high in this category: the Graf forehand, the Graf slice, Martina's volley game, and the mechanics of Chris' backhand.

So, Venus' and Serena's chances of being remembered in tennis terms will probably depend in the end almost entirely on the records they set or break. Unfortunately, here the standards are even higher: you have two of the greatest ever with 24 and 22 majors respectively; you have one player with total weeks at No. 1 of nearly 400, about 180 consecutively; you have two of the most beloved champions ever at 18 majors each; you have one player who has won each major at least four times; you have two of the greatest ever with 9 and 7 Wimbledon's respectively; and, you have two of the greatest ever with a Calendar Year Grand Slam. You beginning to see the big picture.

Honestly speaking, I think Venus has squandered all her chances of being remembered in these terms. Serena's best chance could come from winning a Calendar Year Grand Slam. Don't think it is going to happen. But, she has a chance. Maybe, then, she could hope her name will be mentioned in series with that of Graf and Court. Anything less probably dooms her to the tennis archive where her name may not become the stuff of tennis broadcasts or long appreciation threads in the Blast from the Past section of this board, but it may become the subject of a documentary, just like Althea Gibson's name is now.

If Serena's name won't be mentioned in history, then there goes every player who's played a match from 2000 on . Perserverance counts for something. Thanks to Althea there was an Ashe, McNeil, Garrison, Williams, Williams, and there will be others inspired by Venus and Serena who will come along and make thier mark on the game...that a great legacy in my eyes.

If you think a great shot, or winning slams is the only way to be remembered. Ivan Lendl had a great forehand, and won many slams but when the list of greats comes up, his name is rarely mentioned in lieu of less accomplished players.


By all accounts Martina Navratilova's record outshines that of Evert's yet how many players style of play was influenced by Martina....Chris? So before you go speaking for others remember that what inspires you may not get the next person out of bed.

bandabou
Mar 3rd, 2005, 10:22 PM
Well, when certain posters have a gut feeling that peak Seles was better than peak Graf although the facts say otherwise - why can't other posters have the gut feeling that peak Enna is better than peak Serena although the facts say otherwise?
:confused:

:haha: :rolls:.....you can go ahead and have the gut feeling.....I have the stats in case you need them.

ys
Mar 3rd, 2005, 10:23 PM
In terms of achievements tennis-wise, Henin is unlikely to match Serena. But in terms of individual successfullness she is already head and shoulders above Serena.

bandabou
Mar 3rd, 2005, 10:26 PM
If Serena's name won't be mentioned in history, then there goes every player who's played a match from 2000 on . Perserverance counts for something. Thanks to Althea there was an Ashe, McNeil, Garrison, Williams, Williams, and there will be others inspired by Venus and Serena who will come along and make thier mark on the game...that a great legacy in my eyes.

If you think a great shot, or winning slams is the only way to be remembered. Ivan Lendl had a great forehand, and won many slams but when the list of greats comes up, his name is rarely mentioned in lieu of less accomplished players.


By all accounts Martina Navratilova's record outshines that of Evert's yet how many players style of play was influenced by Martina....Chris? So before you go speaking for others remember that what inspires you may not get the next person out of bed.

Exactly.....LDV thinks he represents the entire world...

Denise4925
Mar 3rd, 2005, 10:37 PM
In terms of achievements tennis-wise, Henin is unlikely to match Serena. But in terms of individual successfullness she is already head and shoulders above Serena.
:scratch:

bandabou
Mar 3rd, 2005, 10:43 PM
In terms of achievements tennis-wise, Henin is unlikely to match Serena. But in terms of individual successfullness she is already head and shoulders above Serena.

Mind to explain that to us? If Serena already is more acomplished...how is Justine more successful?

ys
Mar 3rd, 2005, 10:45 PM
Mind to explain that to us? If Serena already is more acomplished...how is Justine more successful?

That is similar to the discussion in that thread on Serena's statement. As I said, I have my own concept of success. But I won't discuss it in this kind of thread. I just stated my opinion.

Denise4925
Mar 3rd, 2005, 10:46 PM
That is similar to the discussion in that thread on Serena's statement. As I said, I have my own concept of success. But I won't discuss it in this kind of thread. I just stated my opinion.
How special :)

bandabou
Mar 3rd, 2005, 10:58 PM
That is similar to the discussion in that thread on Serena's statement. As I said, I have my own concept of success. But I won't discuss it in this kind of thread. I just stated my opinion.

what kind of lame explanation is that?

ys
Mar 3rd, 2005, 11:14 PM
what kind of lame explanation is that?

As I said I won't engage a serious discussion on the 5th page of this kind of thread..

bandabou
Mar 3rd, 2005, 11:21 PM
whatever ys....and is Enna more successfull indivually than maria or any russian as well?

ys
Mar 3rd, 2005, 11:24 PM
whatever ys....and is Enna more successfull indivually than maria or any russian as well?

I can't say about Maria. At this point we do not know what is going to be Maria's or Sveta's benchmark of being successful or not. But, definitely more successful than any other Russian of her age More successful than any currently active player. No question about. And I say that, given that as you probably know, she is my most disliked player on Tour.

bandabou
Mar 3rd, 2005, 11:33 PM
Ok Ys....your opinion..kinda vague, but it's ok.

K-Dog
Mar 3rd, 2005, 11:41 PM
In terms of achievements tennis-wise, Henin is unlikely to match Serena. But in terms of individual successfullness she is already head and shoulders above Serena.

Yes, personally Justine has accomplished a lot. But you've never probably experienced or seen what Compton is like. At least Henin lived in a good city where she didn't have to worry about drug-lords, pimps, gangs, or being shot at for walking down the street. Serena is also an African-American playing in a primarily white sport. Like there is no prejudice against African-Americans?! I think there is. Justine has had equally hard times with the death of her mother at 12, and now not really having much a relationship with her family. Serena and Justine have accomplished a lot in terms of tennis, but what each has gone through personally cannot be measured!

Allez-H
Mar 3rd, 2005, 11:43 PM
Yes, personally Justine has accomplished a lot. But you've never probably experienced or seen what Compton is like. At least Henin lived in a good city where she didn't have to worry about drug-lords, pimps, gangs, or being shot at for walking down the street. Serena is also an African-American playing in a primarily white sport. Like there is no prejudice against African-Americans?! I think there is. Justine has had equally hard times with the death of her mother at 12, and now not really having much a relationship with her family. Serena and Justine have accomplished a lot in terms of tennis, but what each has gone through personally cannot be measured!
I agree !

ys
Mar 3rd, 2005, 11:46 PM
Yes, personally Justine has accomplished a lot. But you've never probably experienced or seen what Compton is like.

Irrelevant.

At least Henin lived in a good city where she didn't have to worry about drug-lords, pimps, gangs, or being shot at for walking down the street. Serena is also an African-American playing in a primarily white sport. Like there is no prejudice against African-Americans?! I think there is.


Irrelevant.

Justine has had equally hard times with the death of her mother at 12, and now not really having much a relationship with her family. Serena and Justine have accomplished a lot in terms of tennis, but what each has gone through personally cannot be measured!

You don't see the difference, do you?

bandabou
Mar 3rd, 2005, 11:50 PM
irrelevant, irrelevant? So YOU decided what is tough and what isn't?

ys
Mar 3rd, 2005, 11:51 PM
irrelevant, irrelevant? So YOU decided what is tough and what isn't?

No.. I just do not see how it is relevant to striking the ball, that is..

K-Dog
Mar 3rd, 2005, 11:54 PM
Irrelevant.



Irrelevant.



You don't see the difference, do you?


Um, explain how it is irrelevant? Serena has had to also endure the death of her sister in the last 2 years. Living in Compton is HELL! Especially when you are training for a white sport. Serena practiced on courts with broken glass on them. That isn't irrelevant. Serena beat the odds of even becoming a pro form where she was brought up in. There isn't a difference in terms of the level of personal triumph, but the circumstances are different. Justine grew up in the French part of Belgium and trained at a sports academy. She also grew up in a place that it was possible to be a sports champion. ys, YOU ARE BEING A HARD-ASS! Open your damn mind and see both sides!!!! You are just a hater because Serena is way better than your fav and Justine!

bandabou
Mar 3rd, 2005, 11:54 PM
what? The death of one's mother of growing up in a bad neighbourhood?

Denise4925
Mar 3rd, 2005, 11:54 PM
Yes, personally Justine has accomplished a lot. But you've never probably experienced or seen what Compton is like. At least Henin lived in a good city where she didn't have to worry about drug-lords, pimps, gangs, or being shot at for walking down the street. Serena is also an African-American playing in a primarily white sport. Like there is no prejudice against African-Americans?! I think there is. Justine has had equally hard times with the death of her mother at 12, and now not really having much a relationship with her family. Serena and Justine have accomplished a lot in terms of tennis, but what each has gone through personally cannot be measured!
You forgot about the tragic shooting death of Serena's sister. To whom she was very close. So, if he's measuring in terms of personal success in the face of tragedy and overcoming hard times, each has had their own cross to bear and how can you compare or measure things like this? I think you have his number K-Dog, but he won't admit it. :rolleyes:

K-Dog
Mar 3rd, 2005, 11:56 PM
You forgot about the tragic shooting death last year of Serena's sister. To whom she was very close. So, if he's measuring in terms of personal success in the face of tragedy and overcoming hard times, each has had their own cross to bear and how can you compare or measure things like this? I think you have his number K-Dog, but he won't admit it. :rolleyes:

I just added it in my next reply! Thank you Denise!! This happens whenever I debate something and win. The other person keeps saying "so!", "doesn't matter!", or "that's completely wrong!". They can't see my side or admit that my point has put them in a stalemate position. They are just too dumb to compete with me in terms of a debate. It is sad that ys can't out-debate a 17 year old in high school.

Denise4925
Mar 3rd, 2005, 11:59 PM
Irrelevant.



Irrelevant.



You don't see the difference, do you?
He's saying "irrelevant" because he doesn't know how to answer that. Why are y'all even wasting your time on this hater. He has always been a Williams' hater and always will be and there's nothing anyone can say or do to change that. He will find ways to denigrate them or put them down below anyone else. I really think he sits up at night and tries to come up with some things. Which in and of itself is too pathetic to even imagine. :rolleyes:

ys
Mar 3rd, 2005, 11:59 PM
Um, explain how it is irrelevant? Serena has had to also endure the death of her sister in the last 2 years. Living in Compton is HELL! Especially when you are training for a white sport. Serena practiced on courts with broken glass on them. That isn't irrelevant. Serena beat the odds of even becoming a pro form where she was brought up in. There isn't a difference in terms of the level of personal triumph, but the circumstances are different. Justine grew up in the French part of Belgium and trained at a sports academy. She also grew up in a place that it was possible to be a sports champion. ys, YOU ARE BEING A HARD-ASS! Open your damn mind and see both sides!!!! You are just a hater because Serena is way better than your fav and Justine!

I can tell you that there are less Russian tennis players than there are African -American tennis players, and their training conditions are averagely much worse than those of African American blacks.. So if you want to start singing the same "disadvantaged minority" doleful song again, go do it somewhere else.. But again .. you are missing the point.. :)

Denise4925
Mar 4th, 2005, 12:01 AM
I can tell you that there are less Russian tennis players than there are African -American tennis players, and their training conditions are averagely much worse than those of African American blacks.. So if you want to start singing the same "disadvantaged minority" doleful song again, go do it somewhere else.. But again .. you are missing the point.. :)
No one is talking about the Russians. :rolleyes:

K-Dog
Mar 4th, 2005, 12:02 AM
I can tell you that there are less Russian tennis players than there are African -American tennis players, and their training conditions are averagely much worse than those of African American blacks.. So if you want to start singing the same "disadvantaged minority" doleful song again, go do it somewhere else.. But again .. you are missing the point.. :)


Um , you're stupid. There are like a ton of Russian tennis players ass-hole. Every commentator says so! You are going to piss off a ton of black people with that comment. Again, you aren't smart enough to answer my question. You lost the debate. I proved a point that you can't specifically respond to!

Martian Willow
Mar 4th, 2005, 12:40 AM
How old was Serena when she moved to Florida?

K-Dog
Mar 4th, 2005, 12:43 AM
How old was Serena when she moved to Florida?

9 or 10 years old, after Richard got a deal to work with Rick Macci in Florida. They learned most of their tennis in Cali before Rick Macci accepeted them!

Albireo
Mar 4th, 2005, 05:54 AM
I wasn't going to waste my time with this thread, but...

n which way did "Vee" and "See" and Gibson and Ashe "change the sport forever"? Maybe in the U.S.? Their "cultural impact" in Germany, India, China is zero.

Boldface mine.

Saying-- or implying-- that Arthur Ashe had no "cultural impact" outside the U.S. might be the most ignorant comment ever made on WTAworld.com.

A sampling:

"* A Hard Road To Glory, Ashe’s three-volume history of the African-American athlete that chronicles progress made and obstacles overcome from the period 1619-1918, was published in 1988 and soon thereafter adapted for television, ultimately winning an EMMY Award.


* Received honorary doctorates from numerous higher institutions during his lifetime from Dartmouth College, LeMoyne-Owen College, Princeton University, Saint John’s University, Trinity University, Hartford College, and Virginia Union University.


* A total of 11,000 people attended his funeral in Richmond and his memorial service in New York City.


* Spotted the talents of Yannick Noah while on a three-week, goodwill tour of Africa in 1971, and arranged for Noah to be sent to France to further develop his game. Yannick Noah went on to win the French Open, a Grand Slam event.

In a year (1969) when he was basking in the international fame he had gained the previous year after winning the US Open and playing a key role on the United States winning Davis Cup team, two separate issues came to the forefront and helped shape Arthur the activist, a role he never ran from throughout his life if he believed in the cause. At a time when tennis’ popularity was growing by leaps and bounds, the amount of prize money being offered to the players, the "drawing cards," was lagging disproportionately behind. Ashe and several other players formed in 1969, what later became known as the ATP (Association of Tennis Professionals). It is from this small and visionary beginning that today's top players enjoy the large sums of prize money for which they compete. Later that year, as the #1-ranked American and one of the best players in the world, Arthur applied for a visa to play in the South African Open, a prestigious event. His visa was denied because of the color of his skin. Though Arthur was well aware that this would probably be the case, he decided to take a bold stand. His call for expulsion from South Africa from the tennis tour and Davis Cup play was quickly supported by numerous prominent individuals and organizations, both in and out of the tennis world. In effect, he raised the world’s awareness to the oppressive form of government (apartheid) of South Africa. Buoyed by Arthur Ashe’s initial efforts, blacks in South Africa slowly but surely began to see change come about in their country.

By the mid-1970’s, people began to whisper that perhaps Arthur was spending too much time on his causes and not enough time on his game. It was from these doubts that Arthur began to refocus on his game, determined to reach the level of play he once enjoyed. In 1975, at the age of 31, Arthur Ashe enjoyed one of his finest seasons ever and one of the shining moments of his career by winning Wimbledon. He also attained the ultimate ranking of #1 in the world.

Following his retirement in 1980 and unexpected heart surgeries in 1979 and 1983, Arthur began reaping awards and branching off into other professional areas, including journalism, the media, and philanthropic endeavors. Included among those were jobs as a commentator for HBO Sports and ABC Sports, as a columnist for The Washington Post and Tennis magazine, the publishing of Arthur’s 3-volume body of work, A Hard Road To Glory, a stint as captain of the US Davis Cup team, a well-deserved election to the Tennis Hall of Fame in 1985, and the founding of numerous charitable organizations, including the National Junior Tennis League, the ABC Cities Tennis Program, the Athlete-Career Connection, and the Safe Passage Foundation."

That's not even counting his work against AIDS.

source: http://www.cmgww.com/sports/ashe/

With no disrespect toward Graf, she's "just" a tennis player, no matter how good. Arthur Ashe was much more than that.

Mrs. Peel
Mar 4th, 2005, 05:57 AM
I wasn't going to waste my time with this thread, but...



Boldface mine.

Saying-- or implying-- that Arthur Ashe had no "cultural impact" outside the U.S. might be the most ignorant comment ever made on WTAworld.com.

A sampling:

"* A Hard Road To Glory, Ashe’s three-volume history of the African-American athlete that chronicles progress made and obstacles overcome from the period 1619-1918, was published in 1988 and soon thereafter adapted for television, ultimately winning an EMMY Award.


* Received honorary doctorates from numerous higher institutions during his lifetime from Dartmouth College, LeMoyne-Owen College, Princeton University, Saint John’s University, Trinity University, Hartford College, and Virginia Union University.


* A total of 11,000 people attended his funeral in Richmond and his memorial service in New York City.


* Spotted the talents of Yannick Noah while on a three-week, goodwill tour of Africa in 1971, and arranged for Noah to be sent to France to further develop his game. Yannick Noah went on to win the French Open, a Grand Slam event.

In a year (1969) when he was basking in the international fame he had gained the previous year after winning the US Open and playing a key role on the United States winning Davis Cup team, two separate issues came to the forefront and helped shape Arthur the activist, a role he never ran from throughout his life if he believed in the cause. At a time when tennis’ popularity was growing by leaps and bounds, the amount of prize money being offered to the players, the "drawing cards," was lagging disproportionately behind. Ashe and several other players formed in 1969, what later became known as the ATP (Association of Tennis Professionals). It is from this small and visionary beginning that today's top players enjoy the large sums of prize money for which they compete. Later that year, as the #1-ranked American and one of the best players in the world, Arthur applied for a visa to play in the South African Open, a prestigious event. His visa was denied because of the color of his skin. Though Arthur was well aware that this would probably be the case, he decided to take a bold stand. His call for expulsion from South Africa from the tennis tour and Davis Cup play was quickly supported by numerous prominent individuals and organizations, both in and out of the tennis world. In effect, he raised the world’s awareness to the oppressive form of government (apartheid) of South Africa. Buoyed by Arthur Ashe’s initial efforts, blacks in South Africa slowly but surely began to see change come about in their country.

By the mid-1970’s, people began to whisper that perhaps Arthur was spending too much time on his causes and not enough time on his game. It was from these doubts that Arthur began to refocus on his game, determined to reach the level of play he once enjoyed. In 1975, at the age of 31, Arthur Ashe enjoyed one of his finest seasons ever and one of the shining moments of his career by winning Wimbledon. He also attained the ultimate ranking of #1 in the world.

Following his retirement in 1980 and unexpected heart surgeries in 1979 and 1983, Arthur began reaping awards and branching off into other professional areas, including journalism, the media, and philanthropic endeavors. Included among those were jobs as a commentator for HBO Sports and ABC Sports, as a columnist for The Washington Post and Tennis magazine, the publishing of Arthur’s 3-volume body of work, A Hard Road To Glory, a stint as captain of the US Davis Cup team, a well-deserved election to the Tennis Hall of Fame in 1985, and the founding of numerous charitable organizations, including the National Junior Tennis League, the ABC Cities Tennis Program, the Athlete-Career Connection, and the Safe Passage Foundation."

That's not even counting his work against AIDS.

source: http://www.cmgww.com/sports/ashe/

With no disrespect toward Graf, she's "just" a tennis player, no matter how good. Arthur Ashe was much more than that.

That was just beautiful :sad: :sad:

ys
Mar 4th, 2005, 05:59 AM
With no disrespect toward Graf, she's "just" a tennis player, no matter how good. Arthur Ashe was much more than that.

Wishful thinking. He was just a tennis player. There was Althea Gibson. Then there was Arthur Ashe. Now there are Williams sisters. Oh, right, Williams sisters, we know about them since 1991. Almost 15 years.. And? Nothing.. Just a tennis player.

Albireo
Mar 4th, 2005, 06:02 AM
Wishful thinking. He was just a tennis player. There was Althea Gibson. Then there was Arthur Ashe. Now there are Williams sisters. Oh, right, Williams sisters, we know about them since 1991. Almost 15 years.. And? Nothing.. Just a tennis player.

It would take a thousand syntacticians ten years of independent research to find your point.

Calimero377
Mar 4th, 2005, 06:05 AM
I wasn't going to waste my time with this thread, but...



Boldface mine.

Saying-- or implying-- that Arthur Ashe had no "cultural impact" outside the U.S. might be the most ignorant comment ever made on WTAworld.com.

A sampling:

"* A Hard Road To Glory, Ashe’s three-volume history of the African-American athlete that chronicles progress made and obstacles overcome from the period 1619-1918, was published in 1988 and soon thereafter adapted for television, ultimately winning an EMMY Award.


* Received honorary doctorates from numerous higher institutions during his lifetime from Dartmouth College, LeMoyne-Owen College, Princeton University, Saint John’s University, Trinity University, Hartford College, and Virginia Union University.


* A total of 11,000 people attended his funeral in Richmond and his memorial service in New York City.


* Spotted the talents of Yannick Noah while on a three-week, goodwill tour of Africa in 1971, and arranged for Noah to be sent to France to further develop his game. Yannick Noah went on to win the French Open, a Grand Slam event.

In a year (1969) when he was basking in the international fame he had gained the previous year after winning the US Open and playing a key role on the United States winning Davis Cup team, two separate issues came to the forefront and helped shape Arthur the activist, a role he never ran from throughout his life if he believed in the cause. At a time when tennis’ popularity was growing by leaps and bounds, the amount of prize money being offered to the players, the "drawing cards," was lagging disproportionately behind. Ashe and several other players formed in 1969, what later became known as the ATP (Association of Tennis Professionals). It is from this small and visionary beginning that today's top players enjoy the large sums of prize money for which they compete. Later that year, as the #1-ranked American and one of the best players in the world, Arthur applied for a visa to play in the South African Open, a prestigious event. His visa was denied because of the color of his skin. Though Arthur was well aware that this would probably be the case, he decided to take a bold stand. His call for expulsion from South Africa from the tennis tour and Davis Cup play was quickly supported by numerous prominent individuals and organizations, both in and out of the tennis world. In effect, he raised the world’s awareness to the oppressive form of government (apartheid) of South Africa. Buoyed by Arthur Ashe’s initial efforts, blacks in South Africa slowly but surely began to see change come about in their country.

By the mid-1970’s, people began to whisper that perhaps Arthur was spending too much time on his causes and not enough time on his game. It was from these doubts that Arthur began to refocus on his game, determined to reach the level of play he once enjoyed. In 1975, at the age of 31, Arthur Ashe enjoyed one of his finest seasons ever and one of the shining moments of his career by winning Wimbledon. He also attained the ultimate ranking of #1 in the world.

Following his retirement in 1980 and unexpected heart surgeries in 1979 and 1983, Arthur began reaping awards and branching off into other professional areas, including journalism, the media, and philanthropic endeavors. Included among those were jobs as a commentator for HBO Sports and ABC Sports, as a columnist for The Washington Post and Tennis magazine, the publishing of Arthur’s 3-volume body of work, A Hard Road To Glory, a stint as captain of the US Davis Cup team, a well-deserved election to the Tennis Hall of Fame in 1985, and the founding of numerous charitable organizations, including the National Junior Tennis League, the ABC Cities Tennis Program, the Athlete-Career Connection, and the Safe Passage Foundation."

That's not even counting his work against AIDS.

source: http://www.cmgww.com/sports/ashe/

With no disrespect toward Graf, she's "just" a tennis player, no matter how good. Arthur Ashe was much more than that.


As I said: He had a huge cultural impact in the U.S.
And he arranged that Noah was sent fro, Cameroun to France ...

Albireo
Mar 4th, 2005, 06:17 AM
As I said: He had a huge cultural impact in the U.S.
And he arranged that Noah was sent fro, Cameroun to France ...

Aside from mentioning Noah, as above, you seem pretty intent on ignoring Ashe's work in Africa. Does that continent just not exist in your atlas of the world?

And considering that the U.S. has always been one of the focal points of the sport, having a huge impact in the U.S. necessarily equates to having a large impact on the game. You may not want to admit that, but it's true.

ys
Mar 4th, 2005, 06:20 AM
Aside from mentioning Noah, as above, you seem pretty intent on ignoring Ashe's work in Africa. Does that continent just not exist in your atlas of the world?

And the results of that work are...?

RVD
Mar 4th, 2005, 06:41 AM
I wasn't going to waste my time with this thread, but...



Boldface mine.

Saying-- or implying-- that Arthur Ashe had no "cultural impact" outside the U.S. might be the most ignorant comment ever made on WTAworld.com.

A sampling:

"* A Hard Road To Glory, Ashe’s three-volume history of the African-American athlete that chronicles progress made and obstacles overcome from the period 1619-1918, was published in 1988 and soon thereafter adapted for television, ultimately winning an EMMY Award.


* Received honorary doctorates from numerous higher institutions during his lifetime from Dartmouth College, LeMoyne-Owen College, Princeton University, Saint John’s University, Trinity University, Hartford College, and Virginia Union University.


* A total of 11,000 people attended his funeral in Richmond and his memorial service in New York City.


* Spotted the talents of Yannick Noah while on a three-week, goodwill tour of Africa in 1971, and arranged for Noah to be sent to France to further develop his game. Yannick Noah went on to win the French Open, a Grand Slam event.

In a year (1969) when he was basking in the international fame he had gained the previous year after winning the US Open and playing a key role on the United States winning Davis Cup team, two separate issues came to the forefront and helped shape Arthur the activist, a role he never ran from throughout his life if he believed in the cause. At a time when tennis’ popularity was growing by leaps and bounds, the amount of prize money being offered to the players, the "drawing cards," was lagging disproportionately behind. Ashe and several other players formed in 1969, what later became known as the ATP (Association of Tennis Professionals). It is from this small and visionary beginning that today's top players enjoy the large sums of prize money for which they compete. Later that year, as the #1-ranked American and one of the best players in the world, Arthur applied for a visa to play in the South African Open, a prestigious event. His visa was denied because of the color of his skin. Though Arthur was well aware that this would probably be the case, he decided to take a bold stand. His call for expulsion from South Africa from the tennis tour and Davis Cup play was quickly supported by numerous prominent individuals and organizations, both in and out of the tennis world. In effect, he raised the world’s awareness to the oppressive form of government (apartheid) of South Africa. Buoyed by Arthur Ashe’s initial efforts, blacks in South Africa slowly but surely began to see change come about in their country.

By the mid-1970’s, people began to whisper that perhaps Arthur was spending too much time on his causes and not enough time on his game. It was from these doubts that Arthur began to refocus on his game, determined to reach the level of play he once enjoyed. In 1975, at the age of 31, Arthur Ashe enjoyed one of his finest seasons ever and one of the shining moments of his career by winning Wimbledon. He also attained the ultimate ranking of #1 in the world.

Following his retirement in 1980 and unexpected heart surgeries in 1979 and 1983, Arthur began reaping awards and branching off into other professional areas, including journalism, the media, and philanthropic endeavors. Included among those were jobs as a commentator for HBO Sports and ABC Sports, as a columnist for The Washington Post and Tennis magazine, the publishing of Arthur’s 3-volume body of work, A Hard Road To Glory, a stint as captain of the US Davis Cup team, a well-deserved election to the Tennis Hall of Fame in 1985, and the founding of numerous charitable organizations, including the National Junior Tennis League, the ABC Cities Tennis Program, the Athlete-Career Connection, and the Safe Passage Foundation."

That's not even counting his work against AIDS.

source: http://www.cmgww.com/sports/ashe/

With no disrespect toward Graf, she's "just" a tennis player, no matter how good. Arthur Ashe was much more than that.Great work Albireo! :cool: But honestly, these guys don't feel that any black man or woman anywhere can live up to the glory that is Graff. :rolleyes: Obviously, they're shootin up the hard stuff. :tape:
Best just to do what I did, after reading their ridiculous dribble ,and have a slice of cake and call it a night. :drool:

Albireo
Mar 4th, 2005, 06:43 AM
And the results of that work are...?

Arthur Ashe epitomizes good works, devotion to family and unwavering grace under pressure

From Sports Illustrated, December 21, 1992


In 1973, after years of trying, Arthur Ashe wrangled an invitations to play in the South African Open tennis tournament. He wanted to see for himself how the world might help press South Africa to ease its system of racial oppression, its apartheid. In Johannesburg he met a poet and journalist, a black man named Don Mattera. The South African watched when Ashe was confronted by young blacks who hissed that he was an Uncle Tom and told him that his visit only served to legitimize the racist white-minority government, which should be boycotted, made a pariah, until it abandoned apartheid. Mattera heard Ashe defend the use of sporting contacts to chip away at injustice. Allowing one black man to compete in the tournament had been a concession by the government, and, Ashe argued, "small concessions incline toward larger ones."

Mattera listened when Ashe cited Martin Luther King Jr. and Frederick Douglass on how, since power surrenders nothing without a struggle, progress can come only in unsatisfactorily small chunks, and even the tiniest crumb must be better than nothing at all. The South African blacks shouted that Ashe didn't grasp the nature of the police state that bore down on them, that in South Africa his Reverend King would have been thrown into Robben Island prison with their Nelson Mandela. In the face of their seething anger, Ashe had the saintly temerity to warn that if they hoped to exert consistent moral pressure, their emotions were best kept controlled.

No minds were changed. Ashe, depressed by the prospect of standing helplessly on the outside while South African blacks suffered, asked Mattera if he, too, felt Ashe shouldn't have come. Mattera answered carefully, saying it was good to know that people in the rest of the world were concerned, but Ashe needed to understand the full extent of Soweto's misery.

A few days later the South African Bureau of State Security banned Mattera, meaning that he was declared invisible and inaudible. He could no longer publish, travel, enter a library or even speak with more than two people at a time. Imprisonment, he knew, might follow. After a final word with Ashe, Mattera went back to his tiny house, put his six children to bed, lighted a candle and wrote:

I listened deeply when you spoke
About the step-by-step evolution
Of a gradual harvest,
Tendered by the rains of tolerance
And patience.
Your youthful face,
A mask,
Hiding a pining, anguished spirit,
And I loved you brother —
Not for your quiet philosophy
But for the rage in your soul,
Trained to be rebuked or summoned. . . .

Mattera's words are an uncanny blueprint of Ashe, a man constructed to hold fast to reason however impassioned his world. Ashe was indeed trained, first by his father and then by a stern coach, to allow rebuke to slide by his ears as if it were birdsong. In the spring of 1955, when he was almost 12, he was turned away from the Richmond city tennis tournament because of his color. By then Ashe's face was a mask, one of wonderful bespectacled mildness. His politesse grew so unbreachable that it ended up as an unnerving weapon against bratty and temper-tossed opponents.

And Ashe was trained, by church and family, to be summoned. He was made a vessel for the tradition—"the Colored catechism," he calls it—that holds that every time is a time of need and that those to whom much has been given will be called to share and ameliorate.

...

He has raised millions of dollars for a disparate group of organizations but swears that he has never undertaken pro bono work in the manner of a compulsive do-gooder. Each call simply struck him so personally that he couldn't refuse it. College meant the world to him, so there is the United Negro College Fund. He is an athlete, so he established the Safe Passage Foundation. It comprises the ABC Tennis Program, which operates tennis centers in four inner cities, and the Athlete-Career Connection, an organization committed to improving the graduation rates of minority athletes. He also started the African American Athletic Association, which will soon begin counseling New York City high school athletes. As a black citizen of the world, he joined TransAfrica, a think tank that focuses on U.S. foreign policy as it affects Africa and the Caribbean.

He was the first eminent black male tennis player, and part of the catechism he learned says, Thou shalt not close a door behind you. So when Ashe, a voracious reader and self-described "information freak," discovered that African-Americans were cut off from their own sporting history because it had never been comprehensively documented, he took five years to produce the three volumes of A Hard Road to Glory (1988). He won an Emmy for cowriting the television adaptation. Somehow he has found the time to serve as an instruction editor to Tennis magazine, write sports columns for The Washington Post and do tennis commentary for HBO and ABC Sports.

Through it all he kept one eye, one pining eye, on South Africa. And when he read that more than a hundred unarmed schoolchildren had been shot dead by the police in the Soweto student riots that began on June 16, 1976, the realist in Ashe at last acknowledged that South Africa was different. "South Africa," he says, "was testing the credibility of Western civilization. If you didn't come out against the most corrupt system imaginable, you couldn't look yourself in the eye." Then, in 1983, Ashe and Harry Belafonte cochaired Artists and Athletes Against Apartheid, and Ashe did his damnedest to encourage the embargo of all sporting contact with South Africa.

Pinched by these and other sanctions, South African President Frederik de Klerk finally began to enact changes, dropping the racist pass laws, integrating parks and beaches and stadiums, holding talks with the African National Congress and releasing Mandela. When Mandela, 27 years a political prisoner, emerged and was asked whom in the U.S. he wished to have visit, he said, How about Arthur Ashe?

source: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/tennis/features/1997/arthurashe/sport1.html

Sometimes the results of work can't be measured quantitatively.

Calimero377
Mar 4th, 2005, 06:50 AM
Great work Albireo! :cool: But honestly, these guys don't feel that any black man or woman anywhere can live up to the glory that is Graff. ....


Michael Jordan, Muhammad Ali, Pelé.
In the same league as Graf (with a single "f").
Ashe is not. Although he was a very honorable guy.

BTW, I don't think that the Willy sisters' "cultural impact" will be much remembered in 50 years. But that was what the discussion in this thread was all about.

RVD
Mar 4th, 2005, 06:57 AM
Michael Jordan, Muhammad Ali, Pelé.
In the same league as Graf (with a single "f").
Ashe is not. Although he was a very honorable guy.

BTW, I don't think that the Willy sisters' "cultural impact" will be much remembered in 50 years. But that was what the discussion in this thread was all about.Okay Calimero377, whatever you say. I mean you should know right. You know everything there is to know about the contributions of Michael Jordan, Muhammad Ali, Pelé, and the Williams sisters. Even given that the Williams sisters ARE STILL ACTIVE in the sport.
Anyway, I've just finished my cake for the night, and about to have some fun with wifie. ;)
Nighty-night.

Albireo
Mar 4th, 2005, 07:38 AM
Michael Jordan, Muhammad Ali, Pelé.
In the same league as Graf (with a single "f").
Ashe is not. Although he was a very honorable guy.

BTW, I don't think that the Willy sisters' "cultural impact" will be much remembered in 50 years. But that was what the discussion in this thread was all about.

If you don't understand the magnitude of Ashe's "cultural impact," then we obviously haven't settled on a definition of cultural impact. Because the primary cultural impact I see from Graf is that she inspired a lot of girls to play like her. (Yes, I know she's done humanitarian work.) Arthur Ashe actually changed the way the world viewed and dealt with an entire country.

In any case, the discussion in this thread was about Henin (not "Enna," please) vs. Serena. It had nothing to do with Graf, yet we're somehow debating her cultural relevance.

Calimero377
Mar 4th, 2005, 07:39 AM
Okay Calimero377, whatever you say. I mean you should know right. You know everything there is to know about the contributions of Michael Jordan, Muhammad Ali, Pelé, and the Williams sisters. Even given that the Williams sisters ARE STILL ACTIVE in the sport.
Anyway, I've just finished my cake for the night, and about to have some fun with wifie. ;)
Nighty-night.


Good morning (It's a cold and bright day here) ...

Calimero377
Mar 4th, 2005, 07:49 AM
If you don't understand the magnitude of Ashe's "cultural impact," then we obviously haven't settled on a definition of cultural impact. Because the primary cultural impact I see from Graf is that she inspired a lot of girls to play like her. (Yes, I know she's done humanitarian work.) Arthur Ashe actually changed the way the world viewed and dealt with an entire country.

In any case, the discussion in this thread was about Henin (not "Enna," please) vs. Serena. It had nothing to do with Graf, yet we're somehow debating her cultural relevance.


The ORIGINAL discussing was about the cultural impact of the Willy sisters.
I don't doubt that Arthur Ashe was very important for the self-consciousness of black people by reaching the top in a sport that had been predominantly "white" before. But what do you mean by "Ashe ... changed the way the world viewed and dealt with an entire country"? Do you think the world dealt differently with the U.S. because of Ashe? In which way?

Don't get me wrong - Ashe did have a bigger cultural impact than Graf of course. Although the fact that a GERMAN player became a tennis icon in FRANCE (remember the Franco-German history of the last 200 years?) and was cheered as no other player before her in Paris was very, very significant in Europe.

Albireo
Mar 4th, 2005, 08:00 AM
The ORIGINAL discussing was about the cultural impact of the Willy sisters.
I don't doubt that Arthur Ashe was very important for the self-consciousness of black people by reaching the top in a sport that had been predominantly "white" before. But what do you mean by "Ashe ... changed the way the world viewed and dealt with an entire country"? Do you think the world dealt differently with the U.S. because of Ashe? In which way?

Actually, I was referring to how Ashe helped draw attention to the apartheid policies in South Africa, re: the articles I posted. Ashe was not the only figure responsible, of course, but his travels there, and his writings and speeches on the subject, helped to draw it to international attention at a greater level than it had been.

Don't get me wrong - Ashe did have a bigger cultural impact than Graf of course.

Then perhaps I misconstrued your original comment, because I thought that was indeed your contention.

oddkayla
Mar 4th, 2005, 12:12 PM
The myth that the Williams sisters do not work hard should quickly be thrown out of the window. No one does not practice, and reach number 1, winning slams along the way!

They say they are lazy and never do anything? Well Anna was not married!

That is just something they say, because they get a kick out of implying that they do not put an effort. It has never happened and it will never happen.

Serena works extremely hard. Perhaps even harder. She would not survive the tour. She would not even be mediocre.

In terms of greatness, when you compare their results, and stats, Serena and Justine are relatively the same age, and Serena has achieved more. Look for the trend to continue!

bandabou
Mar 9th, 2005, 04:05 AM
Bottom line odkayla.

Stamp Paid
Mar 9th, 2005, 04:22 AM
:yawn:

Veenut
Mar 9th, 2005, 06:26 PM
In a sense she's SUPPOSED too....she's more talented, she's better at her peak than Serena, has beaten better oposition in her major finals, etc......so yeah, if she's so much better than Serena, shouldn't be hard..

Besides...what do they say about injuries and greats? Only the great ones bounce back and reach a their old level...considering how Enna is already greater than Serena, and even Serena has won a major since coming back, enna should have an easier time...

You are such a trouble maker. I was wondering where you were going with this but mmmm...... :lol: :lol:

DA FOREHAND
Mar 9th, 2005, 09:03 PM
what kind of lame explanation is that?
the kind a seven year old little girl ,or a spineless nitwit would give. :wavey: