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View Full Version : WADA calls the WTA lacklustre in Drug testing (article)


Greenout
Jan 20th, 2005, 02:17 PM
WADA has something to say to Larry Scott WTA Ceo.. :tape:


http://www.optusnet.com.au/news/story/abc/20050119/15/ausopen/1284194.inp

GoDominique
Jan 20th, 2005, 02:25 PM
The World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA), meanwhile, said the allegations made against Kuznetsova should serve as a wake-up call to the WTA Tour about its testing procedures.

Although the test was conducted by a Belgian anti-doping agency at a non-WTA event, WADA's director general David Howman said the WTA had a lacklustre approach to drug testing compared to the men's tour.

"We're not so content with the WTA who haven't shown the same enthusiasm or exuberance to ensure that the testing program that they conduct on their tour is in line with the code, so we would hope this might be a stimulus to their coming on board in the right way," he said.

turt
Jan 20th, 2005, 03:16 PM
Interesting :)

Kart
Jan 20th, 2005, 03:24 PM
Ephedrine, a stimulant often found in common over-the-counter drug remedies, has been at the centre of several notorious drug controversies in the past, but was reclassified last year by the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA).

While ephedrine's use during competition remains prohibited, athletes may now avoid sanction if it is found in their system in the off-season, provided there is a valid reason for its presence, such as ingestion in a cold remedy.


I'm confused - as per their regulations the positive test finding is acceptable as well.

So this should be a wake up call because ?

Kart
Jan 20th, 2005, 03:24 PM
Or is it not acceptable by WADA standards ?

vogus
Jan 20th, 2005, 03:26 PM
the WTA ought to sign onto the WADA, not doing so gives the impression that all Larry Scott's furious talk about "our squeaky clean sport" is just a bunch of smoke. I didn't even know before all this that the WTA is not a WADA signatory. It's a bit surprising.

manu32
Jan 20th, 2005, 05:11 PM
if every Wta's player is so clear.....why is WTA so reticent????? it will be no problem
to test player 50 times by year,in and out competitions like in others sports.....
WTA'S and kuznetzovza's violent reactions are too strong to be honest.....
it's not credible at all...

Greenout
Jan 20th, 2005, 11:32 PM
I'm curious. So, are the ATP rules totally different from
the WTA's?

This "incident" is a real case if it were the ATP, right?

~ The Leopard ~
Jan 20th, 2005, 11:41 PM
WADA = people who talk a lot of fanatical talk about trivia, but don't manage to accomplish anything about real drug cheats.

If anything, keeping away from that lot ... um .... enhances ;) the WTA's image.

Hulet
Jan 21st, 2005, 12:11 AM
I'm confused - as per their regulations the positive test finding is acceptable as well.

So this should be a wake up call because ?
Because it's only through more vigorous testing and more publicity about these testings that the WTA could shed some of the negative image it gained because of this incident. Just screaming "we have a clean tour" sounds more like WTA is trying to cover up some drug use.

Interesting that Larry Scott claimed that both he and WADA were outraged by the Belgian official, but in this article WADA doesn't appear that "outraged". This is from his statment:
"The WTA Tour [and Wada are both] outraged by the irresponsible nature of the accusations and committed to ensuring that due process and proper procedures are followed."

What's the official reason why WTA didn't sign up/join WADA?

Martian Willow
Jan 21st, 2005, 12:19 AM
I'm confused - as per their regulations the positive test finding is acceptable as well.

So this should be a wake up call because ?

I'm equally confused. I don't see how this says anything about the WTA's attitude to drug testing. :shrug:

TheBoiledEgg
Jan 21st, 2005, 12:28 AM
nothing new here, they've been saying this for years

WADA have never been happy with tennis stance on drug policies, too lenient
they not happy with Football either, quite furious with them.

As Tennis hasnt actually signed up to the WADA code ( i.e. a 2 yr ban for drug cheats) until then they wont be happy.

fammmmedspin
Jan 21st, 2005, 12:48 AM
Because it's only through more vigorous testing and more publicity about these testings that the WTA could shed some of the negative image it gained because of this incident. Just screaming "we have a clean tour" sounds more like WTA is trying to cover up some drug use.

Interesting that Larry Scott claimed that both he and WADA were outraged by the Belgian official, but in this article WADA doesn't appear that "outraged". This is from his statment:


What's the official reason why WTA didn't sign up/join WADA?
They have pointed out ad infinitum that players are tested, the players talk about it, Sveta's 11 tests a year shows it is rigorous - the only other thing they could do is film it....

You can't prove a negative so all you can do is say we are doing enough to ensure we are clean.

Logically they shouldn't have any damage to undo over this episode. Any fool can tell that cough mixture isn't anything to get excited about and they have been pretty clear that no rules were broken. They couldn't have put it any more clearly. Not much more they could do there - you can't design policy to convince fools.

Can't think of any other sport where the players travel so much, come from so many countries and have such a short off season so you would expect tennis to have unique rules.

Not sure that the ATP is a great example either given the nonsense of its players being brought up for drug taking over food additives which was spun out for ages even though the additives were official ones.

The real problems are the standard problem with international institutions and the standard problem with technology - nationalism and change. If you have big states that don't support drug testing and want to win or are too big to test everyone its debatable how much point there is doing it at all other than to protect the health of your own people. its like cutting CO2 emissions when Chinese energy consumption is going up by 10% every year. Even if you get over that you have a situation where the technology of drug taking moves faster than the technology of testing. Given the amount of drug taking in other sports joining WADA obviously isn't a cure for anything.

Kart
Jan 21st, 2005, 12:48 AM
Because it's only through more vigorous testing and more publicity about these testings that the WTA could shed some of the negative image it gained because of this incident. Just screaming "we have a clean tour" sounds more like WTA is trying to cover up some drug use.

The negative image is mainly because this matter was handled so badly by the person that announced it.

From where I'm standing a player tested positive for a drug that she is allowed to take by both the WTA and WADA so I fail to see why this is a wake up call.

Of course, if she had tested positive for a banned substance that would be wholly different and he would have a point.

Still, it is a matter of opinion :).

Aretha Franklin
Jan 21st, 2005, 01:03 AM
WADA knows NADA (i'm so clever).

they are mars god of war in disguise trying to seek out the warrior princess in the form of the women's tennis association and svetlana. jupiter will have his vengence

minboy
Jan 21st, 2005, 11:15 AM
Why is everybody pickin on WADA , and let larry scott and wta have a free ride?
Is it that hard to imagine that the wta may be not as clean as it seems? The WADA is clearly criticizing the WTA for lack of cooperation, yet it seems it's WAda's fault for some people. ( WADA may not ben perfect, but it's still better than nothing )
And only 14 REPLIES???????? That tells me what i wanted to know : not only the WTA doesn't give a damn about having a clean tour, but so does the fans. Not surprising though.

and about "sveta's 13 tests a year shows it is rigorous"....what a crap!!! There are 52 weeks in a year, 13 is definetely not enough, especially where there are not test off-competition.

veryborednow
Jan 21st, 2005, 12:04 PM
Why haven't the WTA signed up with WADA, what was their reasoning?

I didn't agree with you in the other post because I don't think it's Sveta's fault. She took the drug because it is legal, the bigger question is why is it legal for tennis and not other sports? Should there be the same drugs tests for all sports, or because sports are different should there be different regulations.

And eventually, it all comes down to money. The same with football. There should definately be more testing.

vutt
Jan 21st, 2005, 12:16 PM
And eventually, it all comes down to money. The same with football. There should definately be more testing.

Yep! I agree. Scott just signed to new title sponsor for WTA tour. He needs clear image for tour.

I wonder how are things in golf tour? Big money involved obviously. How about drug policies?

veryborednow
Jan 21st, 2005, 12:21 PM
Well golf's not a sport :p You don't need drugs to wonder around a big park and wallop a ball.

Greenout
Jan 21st, 2005, 12:24 PM
Yep! I agree. Scott just signed to new title sponsor for WTA tour. He needs clear image for tour.

I wonder how are things in golf tour? Big money involved obviously. How about drug policies?


It's also the whole ranking system which encourages playing
as many tournaments as possible to get your points. And
this in turn means getting a piece of the action from the
Gold Exempt bonus pool.

The WTA system feeds this... 13 drug test? A joke isn't it?
How many tournaments does an average top 30 wannabe play?
27 events not including grand slams? :tape:


Quite frankly the WTA doesn't really care how you get your
ass in shape, as long as you show up and wave to everyone,
meet the sponsors and do the promo. Really it's all about
keeping tournament directors happy right? Who cares if you
lose, are injured or depressed. Get your ass out for
photo day with the sponsors and sign those balls!

P.S you better be at the next event and do media day!

moby
Jan 21st, 2005, 12:25 PM
I posted this in the other thread and think it's relevant here:

According to the WADA, a substance is banned if it fulfils 2 out of the 3 criteria:
1) It is performance-enhancing
2) It is harmful to the athlete
3) It is against the spirit of sport

Since ephedrine is most certainly harmful above the legal limits, we'll have to see if it is performance-enhancing. Which it is, it increases airflow to the lungs for increased oxygen uptake, it allows for more effective anaerobic respiration, it reduces fat, increases rate of protein synthesis and facilitates skeletal muscular contractions just to name a few.

However ephedrine is classified specially by WADA as a "specified substance", a drug commonly found in most medicines and particular susceptible to causing misleading results, and punishment even in-competition can be reduced if there is proof that it was taken for a cold.

Kart
Jan 21st, 2005, 12:29 PM
Which it is, it increases airflow to the lungs for increased oxygen uptake, it allows for more effective anaerobic respiration, it reduces fat, increases rate of protein synthesis and facilitates skeletal muscular contractions just to name a few.

That's not my understanding of how ephedrine works.

Is that from your own knowledge or do you have a source ?

If so I'd be interested in reading it :).

moby
Jan 21st, 2005, 12:30 PM
It is from varied Internet sources from my reading yesterday.

pigam
Jan 21st, 2005, 12:31 PM
numerous players (former and present) have spoken about doping in women's tennis,
so saying women's tennis is completely clean is nonsense.

Of course, Sveta was treated badly,
but still: WADA seems to be the best solution to drug problems, so why doesn't the WTA "sign in"?

moby
Jan 21st, 2005, 12:36 PM
For Kart:

I think these two sources are the most informative.

http://www.ironmagazine.com/review47.html
http://www.cyclingforums.com/articles/a-69.html

One correction: It doesn't increase efficiency of anaerobic respiration. It just allows anaerobic respiration (which is not as effective as aerobic) to kick in later.

~ The Leopard ~
Jan 21st, 2005, 12:57 PM
Of course, Sveta was treated badly,
but still: WADA seems to be the best solution to drug problems, so why doesn't the WTA "sign in"?
The devil is in the detail. As any lawyer will tell you, don't sign anything, ever, unless you understand and can live with all the fine print. It sounds like WADA demands too much fine print, so the WTA is entitled to tell it to get fucked.

Really, it should be simple. If a drug gives serious performance enhancement benefits and is also seriously unsafe, no one should be allowed to use it and thus put semi-coercive pressure on everyone else in the same sport to endanger their health. Genuinely effective masking agents for such drugs also need to be banned unless their use is too sporadic or whatever to be masking anything. All the rest of what WADA blathers on about is bureaucratic bullshit.

Greenout
Jan 21st, 2005, 01:01 PM
The devil is in the detail. As any lawyer will tell you, don't sign anything, ever, unless you understand and can live with all the fine print. It sounds like WADA demands too much fine print, so the WTA is entitled to tell it to get fucked.

Really, it should be simple. If a drug gives serious performance enhancement benefits and is also seriously unsafe, no one should be allowed to use it and thus put semi-coercive pressure on everyone else in the same sport to endanger their health. Genuinely effective masking agents for such drugs also need to be banned unless their use is too sporadic or whatever to be masking anything. All the rest of what WADA blathers on about is bureaucratic bullshit.


But, the problem is the WTA really doesn't care how a player
get's their butt to a tournament. The end justifies the means to
the WTA. The players health doesn't matter nor does an
emotional state matter either. They will simply find or push
other new stars of the game. So, all of this drugs being unsafe
doesn't figure into this.

The WTA simply doesn't care about the players enough to
bring in WADA to the tour. If you have problems...well that's
your problem.

pigam
Jan 21st, 2005, 01:04 PM
But, the problem is the WTA really doesn't care how a player
get's their butt to a tournament. The end justifies the means to
the WTA. The players health doesn't matter nor does an
emotional state matter either. They will simply find or push
other new stars of the game. So, all of this drugs being unsafe
doesn't figure into this.

The WTA simply doesn't care about the players enough to
bring in WADA to the tour. If you have problems...well that's
your problem.
yeah, I think the WTA is treating the players like lemons :lol: :unsure: :bolt: ;)

veryborednow
Jan 21st, 2005, 01:20 PM
I think so, and imagine if a top player got caught. That's a whole season off in footballing drug terms, two in WADAs.

I read ephedrine works for 4 hours, so at an exho - big deal. But how would you pick up the average player using it for a match...? Can't test all 128 of them after each match.

griffin
Jan 21st, 2005, 01:22 PM
Just screaming "we have a clean tour" sounds more like WTA is trying to cover up some drug use.


How does screaming "they're too lax" "someone tested positive" when in fact the "positive" in question wouldn't even have been a violation under WADA rules?

Does the WTA have an interest in covering its ass? Of course, but it's not like WADA is free of ulterior motives here. They have a vested interest in bolstering their own image and making it look like theirs is the only program that can be taken seriously - being respectful to other programs does not accomplish this. Further, one of their minions badly botched this situation - believe me they're trying to deflect attention from that as much as anything else.

The WTA should test out of competition. Agreed. The WTA should test more rigorously. Agreed. But I get the impression they would have to test every player every week before some people felt they were doing enough.

Kart
Jan 21st, 2005, 02:43 PM
For Kart:

I think these two sources are the most informative.

http://www.ironmagazine.com/review47.html
http://www.cyclingforums.com/articles/a-69.html

One correction: It doesn't increase efficiency of anaerobic respiration. It just allows anaerobic respiration (which is not as effective as aerobic) to kick in later.
Thank you :).

vogus
Jan 21st, 2005, 03:19 PM
The real problems are the standard problem with international institutions and the standard problem with technology - nationalism and change. If you have big states that don't support drug testing and want to win or are too big to test everyone its debatable how much point there is doing it at all other than to protect the health of your own people. its like cutting CO2 emissions when Chinese energy consumption is going up by 10% every year. Even if you get over that you have a situation where the technology of drug taking moves faster than the technology of testing. Given the amount of drug taking in other sports joining WADA obviously isn't a cure for anything.

i guess this is a long convoluted shpiel about how there shouldn't be any drug testing in tennis. It's lousy logic.

As Greeny says, the WTA has no incentive to catch drug cheats, in fact it has a dis-incentive to catch them, and therefore their WTA's internal drug testing program lacks credibility. Meanwhile the incentive for players to cheat using doping, with all the money and sponsors involved, is huge.

Nastyafan
Jan 21st, 2005, 06:28 PM
Of course WTA cares abot the drugs. They care badly no one to be caught. But what could we expect if the sponsors want the label "clean sport" and the fans want to believe their favs are clean or to win no matter how? Do you expect any boss to penalize his inferior because he earns to much money for him even breaking some ethical norms and not taking care about his own health?

2ace2
Jan 21st, 2005, 06:41 PM
I can't believe some people in here are even trying to prove that it's not a big deal if you take doping at a non-official tournament. What kind of shit is that. Dope is dope, whether it's taken in official circumstances or not. If the WTA wants to get out of this mess with some credibility left, they better think of a punishment for Kuznetsova, because not punishing a player who used doping is not a good way to promote a "clean" sport"
Seems to me that there are a lot of hypocrites in here...

griffin
Jan 21st, 2005, 06:45 PM
I can't believe some people in here are even trying to prove that it's not a big deal if you take doping at a non-official tournament. What kind of shit is that. Dope is dope, whether it's taken in official circumstances or not. If the WTA wants to get out of this mess with some credibility left, they better think of a punishment for Kuznetsova, because not punishing a player who used doping is not a good way to promote a "clean" sport"
Seems to me that there are a lot of hypocrites in here...

So then of course you also think WADA has no credibility either, right?

2ace2
Jan 21st, 2005, 06:46 PM
So then of course you also think WADA has no credibility either, right?I don't know enough about WADA to make a statement about it.
And besides, WADA isn't the issue here...

griffin
Jan 21st, 2005, 06:56 PM
Of course it's an issue, or didn't you read the thread and title? :lol:

WADA and WTA's rules about the use of ephedrine out of competition (ie, non-tour events, etc) are the same. Mostly because it has no long-term beneficial effects on performance (taking it even today won't help you tomorrow, let alone next month or next season), and it is fairly common in some kinds of medication.

If they'd found evidence of more serious drugs or blood-doping, yes people would take this a lot more seriously.

2ace2
Jan 21st, 2005, 06:58 PM
Of course it's an issue, or didn't you read the thread and title? :lol:

WADA and WTA's rules about the use of ephedrine out of competition (ie, non-tour events, etc) are the same. Mostly because it has no long-term beneficial effects on performance (taking it even today won't help you tomorrow, let alone next month or next season), and it is fairly common in some kinds of medication.

If they'd found evidence of more serious drugs or blood-doping, yes people would take this a lot more seriously.I meant in the Kuznetsova case. It's not up to WADA to do the punishment, it's the WTA that should take care of it.
Why are you defending doping use?

Martian Willow
Jan 21st, 2005, 06:58 PM
Sure, punishing someone who didn't break any rules would help the WTA's credibility no end. :rolleyes:

griffin
Jan 21st, 2005, 07:03 PM
I meant in the Kuznetsova case. It's not up to WADA to do the punishment, it's the WTA that should take care of it.
Why are you defending doping use?

Why are you not bothering to read what people have actually posted.

There is no cause - by any established standard - of accusing her of doping. If she took something like this during a tournament (where it would actually make a difference), or if she'd tested positive for something that would otherwise affect her in actual competition, she would indeed deserve punishment.

As it is, you're simply advocating for a witch hunt.

2ace2
Jan 21st, 2005, 07:07 PM
Why are you not bothering to read what people have actually posted.

There is no cause - by any established standard - of accusing her of doping. If she took something like this during a tournament (where it would actually make a difference), or if she'd tested positive for something that would otherwise affect her in actual competition, she would indeed deserve punishment.

As it is, you're simply advocating for a witch hunt.As I said, dope is dope, and in the sports world it's a big issue. If these are the rules atm, then something has to change quickly

vutt
Jan 21st, 2005, 07:43 PM
There is no cause - by any established standard - of accusing her of doping. If she took something like this during a tournament (where it would actually make a difference), or if she'd tested positive for something that would otherwise affect her in actual competition, she would indeed deserve punishment.

LOL! What's the difference between competition and competition then? The one under WTA tour flag and the one under independent exhibition tournament flag. Same activity - playing tennis for money and you are trying to win.

I do agree with the purpose of the "off competition" rule if you are sick at home or doing any other non related activity.


However I personally don't think Sveta did it deliberatly. She was just little bit foolish IMHO. I'm pretty sure from now one she will be very careful what to take in even during off season :angel:

griffin
Jan 21st, 2005, 07:50 PM
So if Amelie and I are playing up at Tufts and make a bet on the outcome, it's "in competition"? We're playing tennis for money after all...we're "competing" against each other...

Why is it so hard to understand a difference between a competition sanctioned by a sport's governing body, where the results count towards something more than just a paycheck - and an exhibition, put on soley for entertainment purposes, who's results count for nothing, and who's "competition" may or may not be taken entirely seriously by the participants? Are people that hung up on semantics?

vutt
Jan 21st, 2005, 08:02 PM
Well there is difference of course, but I still disagree with you over the fact that sporsmen or woman can and are allowed to take drugs while doing thier primary activity in front of paying crowd.

Nastyafan
Jan 21st, 2005, 08:55 PM
Why do so many people concentrate on this particular question: what is "in" and what "out competition"? The main issue is why almost all sports, even ATP accept WADA's rules but WTA finds them too restrictive? I know WADA isn't very effective in the fight with the drugs too but even so WTA doesn't want to accept their interference. At least that would give some legitimacy on the phrase "clean sport" How could any clever and unbiased man believe that tennis players are so conscientious and superior to other athletes with these money in tennis that most of athletes can only dream. Or that stuff about 13 tests. Who makes them? Maybe players themselves. I think the Belgian sports-minister was right saying that there is something rotten in WTA.

Kart
Jan 21st, 2005, 10:05 PM
Sure, punishing someone who didn't break any rules would help the WTA's credibility no end. :rolleyes::worship:

I can't believe some people in here are even trying to prove that it's not a big deal if you take doping at a non-official tournament. What kind of shit is that. Dope is dope, whether it's taken in official circumstances or not. If the WTA wants to get out of this mess with some credibility left, they better think of a punishment for Kuznetsova, because not punishing a player who used doping is not a good way to promote a "clean" sport"
Seems to me that there are a lot of hypocrites in here...
Did you miss the bit where Sveta was cleared ? Or do you simply not believe her ?

If it's the latter then that's your choice but be clear that you're accusing her of doping and lying when all the people actually involved in the situation - with the actual facts in front of them - have cleared her.

~ The Leopard ~
Jan 21st, 2005, 10:58 PM
"Dope is dope."

Where do people learn these idiotic cliches? It seems that no matter how many intelligent people like griffin :hearts: explain the situation someone will come back with this sort of thing, as if it proved something (apart from the fact that the poster concerned is a moron incapable of any complex thought).

2ace2
Jan 22nd, 2005, 09:43 AM
"Dope is dope."

Where do people learn these idiotic cliches? It seems that no matter how many intelligent people like griffin :hearts: explain the situation someone will come back with this sort of thing, as if it proved something (apart from the fact that the poster concerned is a moron incapable of any complex thought).Another cliché, when someone's in a position where he doesn't know what to say, he starts calling names...

~ The Leopard ~
Jan 22nd, 2005, 11:13 AM
^Yup, some people sure know how to come out with those cliches. :)