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Volcana
Dec 15th, 2004, 05:22 AM
Defence for Children International
http://www.dci-pal.org/layout/img/sp.gif
http://www.dci-pal.org/layout/img/sp.gif

Defence for Children International was established in Geneva, Switzerland in 1979, the International Year of the Child, in response to a UN plea calling to remedy the lack of international bodies that advocate for the rights of children. The organization was founded by Mr. Nigel Cantwell and the Reverend Moerman, along with eight other persons from Latin America, Asia, and Europe.

DCI’s first important mission was to collaborate in the drafting of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. In 1985, DCI began to expand a worldwide network by establishing National Sections of the Movement. DCI/Palestine Section is one of over 35 DCI Sections around the world.

Through its Sections, DCI promotes, advocates, and protects the rights of children globally. DCI’s goals are the following: • To monitor worldwide the application of children’s rights.
• To advise and lobby governments for the application of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.
• To promote legal reform.
• To promote thematic regional programmes through DCI’s National Sections and Associated Members addressing the current needs of children, adolescents, and their families.
• To have an impact on political structures by being a worldwide children’s rights movement.
• To build a political position and a common methodology for the whole DCI Movement.
• To strengthen DCI by consolidating the International Secretariat and National Sections. To find out more about DCI and its Sections around the world, please visit the website of DCI’s International Secretariat: http://www.defence-for-children.org/ (http://www.defence-for-children.org/)

International Standards Concerning the Rights of the Child (http://www.child-abuse.com/childhouse/childrens_rights/dci_home.html)


Defence for Children International/Palestine Section (http://www.dci-pal.org/english/Display.cfm?DocId=284&CategoryId=11)

This is a jpg. You have to follow the links to get actual pages, and the links from those pages.

http://webtest.mylaststraw.com/Statistics%20on%20Palestinian%20Children%20killed. jpg

Oleh
Dec 16th, 2004, 09:46 PM
Thats nice, where are the statistics for the Israeli children intentionally murdered by the Palestinian terrorists?
Wheres the stats for the systematic Palestinain Child abuse? And the motives behind these kids "Shahid" missions?

Your using numbers but not looking at what they mean. Use your own mind and put two and two together.

Also look at the source, it has propaganda values thus decrediting it to an extent.

Israel dosnt do this deliberately, at all. And usually it dosnt do it accidentaly. Palestine does it to those kids by throwing them infront of bullets, giving them guns, denying them treatment in world class Israeli hospitals (Which is offered and alwasy rejected) giving over 80% of Palestinian kids their biggest ambition in life-to die a shahid, and putting bombs in their school back packs.

Volcana
Dec 16th, 2004, 10:25 PM
Thats nice, where are the statistics for the Israeli children intentionally murdered by the Palestinian terrorists?I am not, and do not claim, to be providing information for all sides of an arguement. I am providing data not readily offered byt the US media. The deaths of Isreali children through attacks ARE reported by the US media. No need for me to do it. If you feel it's necessary, YOU post the data on those deaths.
Also look at the source, it has propaganda values thus decrediting it to an extent.
a) Defence for Children International is quite a legit organization. http://www.defence-for-children.org/ (http://www.defence-for-children.org/)

b) ALL facts have propaganda. Your arguement is the same as saying Amnesty International's data is invalid because of it's 'propaganda value.
Israel dosnt do this deliberately, at all.I understand you believe that. However, I don't.

Oleh
Dec 16th, 2004, 10:38 PM
Any source which CHOSES to comment on one side and not another is bias. It becomes propaganda as its trying to force a view of one sidedness on people.

Where is it our policy to kill Palestinian Children, where is the doctoriine or our equivocal call for "jihad" on the muslims of palestine on "Their children". Sorry we dont go up to schools and shoot it up because its a weak target of innocence. You serve in the IDF Volcana and you tell me what your ordered to do and what you see.

Accidents do happen, it happens in war, its not just to highlight Israels accidents more than anyne elses-especially when our "accidents" are on a smaller scale etc etc.
And yes sometime children need to be shot to in the cause of conflict. They are taught too to carry guns. And do you think its easy for an IDF Commander to choose between the lives of MANY Israelis and his soldiers or the life of that gun bearer intent on killing? Its a horrible scenario, but our hands in such circumstances are tied to, frankly, kill one or die en masse. And before you say its policy to kill, its not, it is to aim at the legs or non vital parts of the body IF POSSIBLE and more often than not, it is not. You try fire a gun at a moving target who is shooting heavily at you-you do what it takes.
These kids shouldnt be fighting in the first place, period. We dont ask them to or make them-yet we are blamed.

Volcana
Dec 16th, 2004, 11:27 PM
Any source which CHOSES to comment on one side and not another is bias. It becomes propaganda as its trying to force a view of one sidedness on people.This of course renders every Israeli, American, Arab, Chinese, Russian and Martian media outlets biased, and the source of propaganda. I don't even choose to disagree. As I said before, I don't post in a vacuum. The bias among media in the USA (and certainly the northeastern USA, where I live) largely ignores the situation and suffering of the Palestinians. It pays a significant amount of attention to the situation and suffering of the Israelis. Regardless of what I post, the coverage is certainly not balanced.
Accidents do happen, it happens in war, its not just to highlight Israels accidents more than anyne elses-especially when our "accidents" are on a smaller scale etc etc.
And yes sometime children need to be shot to in the cause of conflict. They are taught too to carry guns. And do you think its easy for an IDF Commander to choose between the lives of MANY Israelis and his soldiers or the life of that gun bearer intent on killing?Oleh - a child killed because he was in a building rocketed by a helicopter gunship. And, I might add, I search for articles on Palestinian deaths in a lot of sources, and I can't recall even an Israeli media source claiming any specific death of a child under 14 was because they were carrying explosive, or a weapon greater than a rock. (Truthfully, I can't recall one for ANY children, but it's far too easy to get a 16 year old to shoot a gun, so I assume there are Palestinian 16 years olds who's do it.)

Do me a favor.

Post me some links to some Israeli media sources for stories about specific instances of children being killed because they were carrying explosives. My own search for such articles has been in vain. Thus, it is my belief that this is a popular myth in Israel, but has little basis in fact. However, I will keep an open mind on the subject. I would only ask that, rather than posting articles of people claiming this happens, you post articles of specific instances. No doubt, I'll remain skeptical, but I'll have to concede such incidents have been reported in mainstream media.

Philbo
Dec 16th, 2004, 11:48 PM
Israeli court charges officer for shooting schoolgirl
Fellow soldiers testify at trial

By Agence France Presse (AFP)

Tuesday, November 23, 2004







JERUSALEM: An Israeli military court on Monday indicted an army officer accused by

his own soldiers of emptying his weapon into a Palestinian schoolgirl who was already dead, judicial sources said.

The officer was charged with two counts of illegal use of a weapon, two counts of inappropriate behavior and exceeding his authority and one count of obstruction of justice.

The indictments followed a military police investigation into an incident on Oct. 5 in which 13-year-old Iman al-Hams was shot dead by soldiers in the southern Gaza town of Rafah on suspicion she was carrying explosives in her school satchel.

A fellow soldier testified that the commander, whose name has not been revealed, then fired into the girl's body several times. The doctor who examined the body said it was riddled with 20 bullets, including five in the head.

The charges were leveled just five weeks after soldier was cleared of any wrongdoing in another army investigation.

According to the indictment, after the girl was wounded in the initial burst of fire from the outpost, the officer and another soldier approached the girl as she was lying on the ground.

Telling the other soldier to wait at a distance, the officer went on ahead and on reaching the girl "pointed his weapon, an M16, down and shot her - two shots at very close range."

He was about to return to the other soldier but changed his mind, the indictment said.

"He turned around and returned to the place where the girl was lying ... and standing as before, he aimed his weapon down and fired, in automatic mode, about 10 bullets until he emptied his magazine." The indictment also charged the officer with trying to convince other soldiers to lie on his behalf.

Last month, the army concluded an internal investigation that cleared the officer. "The investigation did not find that the company or the company commander had acted unethically during the incident," the army said on Oct. 15



The officer, who denies the charges, was arrested by the military police after they discovered contradictions in his testimony, public radio said.

It said tapes of the radio communications on the day of the incident are to be played at the trial. Army chief of staff Moshe Yaalon said soldiers had justified firing at the girl because they suspected she wanted to distract their attention and lead them away from their watch tower so snipers could shoot them.

Philbo
Dec 16th, 2004, 11:49 PM
I guess empyting his gun into the already shot girl was an accident? Like, as in wars, accidents happen?

Volcana
Dec 16th, 2004, 11:55 PM
I guess empyting his gun into the already shot girl was an accident? Like, as in wars, accidents happen?In fairness, we have to allow that guy could have simply flipped out. A US soldier did much the same thing in Iraq recently.

I think, honestly, the average solidier in the IDF has been put in a horrible position. Other people tell them, 'killing children is justified, go out and do it'. And unlike a suicide bomber, they have to live with the fact they ARE killing children. Suicide bombers, by definition, don't have to worry about remorse, or post traumatic stress.

'The indictments followed a military police investigation into an incident on Oct. 5 in which 13-year-old Iman al-Hams was shot dead by soldiers in the southern Gaza town of Rafah on suspicion she was carrying explosives in her school satchel.'I note the article does not say explosives were FOUND, which would, of course, be a better justification. I'm sure if they WERE actually found, the article would certainly say so.

But again, where is the emotional health of the soldier in all this? If the 13 year girl IS carrying explosives, he's SUPPOSED to kill her. Those are his orders. They'll TELL him it's the fault of the person wh ogave her the explosives, but does he sleep easily at night? And when that child DOESN'T have explosives? How much more callous and unfeeling a human beiing must you become knowing you just killed an innocent child because 'you were only following orders'?

'they suspected she wanted to distract their attention and lead them away from their watch tower so snipers could shoot them.'In this second case, they aren't even arguing the kid was ARMED. They killed her because they SUSPECTED she was trying to distract them.

The thing that ties both of these incidents together is SUSPICION.

These are examples of a mentality that says 'if you even suspect a Palestinian child MIGHT be dangerous, killing them is justified'.

That's not a justification, it's an obscenity.

Oleh
Dec 17th, 2004, 12:15 AM
I guess empyting his gun into the already shot girl was an accident? Like, as in wars, accidents happen?

As i said before, there are individuals who are sick and diluded. They are not represent of the IDF. But you prove doube standards again.

'killing children is justified, go out and do it''-No one has EVER told us that. Take that first hand knowledge.

"I note the article does not say explosives were FOUND, which would, of course, be a better justification. I'm sure if they WERE actually found, the article would certainly say so."- Youd be suprised what they leave out.


"In this second case, they aren't even arguing the kid was ARMED. They killed her because they SUSPECTED she was trying to distract them.
The thing that ties both of these incidents together is SUSPICION."

Its a sad truth that many are killed on suspicion-but if YOU were out THERE-you two speaking from ZERO personal experience youd see why suspicion kills. Hey at least we dont kill people on the suspicion they collaborate with the other side...At least its not indiscriminate based on ones jewishness.

Look, Ive miscomunicated slightly, most of these kids die being used as sheilds-its teens who have the guns (ie12+). There are one off examples but you people are coming up with a few of them over almost a 5 year period and saying its common place. Thats wrong.

Volcana im putting together a list for you or eg's where "Children" were the agressors AND most commonly being used as sheilds-remembering thats the most common reason. You expect us all to die or the terrorists? As i said its a horrible situation and you guys cant comment because you dont live it on either side.

Also look at the PA Videos on the site i mentioned previously and SEE for yourself.

Philbo
Dec 17th, 2004, 12:29 AM
Im not saying the Palestinians are innocent victims. Some of the Palestinian atrocities are sickening.

But I understand the desperation they are in and what drives them to terrorism. When you are faced with a lifetime of misery and suffering, living in glorified concentration camps, having to pass through checkpoints where you are humiliated daily on the way to the market, or having to walk an exta 10 miles to school because Israel decided to put a new Berlin type wall up through the middle of your village with no logical reason why, becoming a Martyr as a suicide bomber looks like an appealing option.

I grew up believing in Israel as a big victime of the palestinians due to the mainstream media coverage in Australia. But when I became old enough to think for myself, I can see why the Palestinians are so desperate to resort to such awful tactics.

Justeenium
Dec 17th, 2004, 12:43 AM
Im not saying the Palestinians are innocent victims. Some of the Palestinian atrocities are sickening.

But I understand the desperation they are in and what drives them to terrorism. When you are faced with a lifetime of misery and suffering, living in glorified concentration camps, having to pass through checkpoints where you are humiliated daily on the way to the market, or having to walk an exta 10 miles to school because Israel decided to put a new Berlin type wall up through the middle of your village with no logical reason why, becoming a Martyr as a suicide bomber looks like an appealing option.

I grew up believing in Israel as a big victime of the palestinians due to the mainstream media coverage in Australia. But when I became old enough to think for myself, I can see why the Palestinians are so desperate to resort to such awful tactics.

What an ignorant moron. I'm not even going to revisit the whole wall debate which obviously you've forgotten when you had your ass handed to you with your comparison to the Berlin wall.

About that glorified concentration camps--I assume you mean the refugee camps, did you ever stop and think why are they in there? Did Israel put them in camps. oh let me check-----NO how many other times do I have to say this, it was the surrounding arab countries that failed the Palestinians, they're the reason for the hardships, not the Israelis you ignorant twat. they hate the Israelis because they are racist, that is not debatable, anything else is typical arab propaganda.


oh here I corrected your last statement...
I grew up believing in Israel as a big victime of the palestinians due to the mainstream media coverage in Australia. But when I became old enough to think for myself (translation- I'm a dumbass), I can see why the Palestinians are so desperate to resort to such awful tactics.

Justeenium
Dec 17th, 2004, 12:48 AM
How come you're not old enough to read for yourself...

http://www.wtaworld.com/showpost.php?p=4415381&postcount=68

Volcana
Dec 17th, 2004, 01:07 AM
Its a sad truth that many are killed on suspicion-but if YOU were out THERE-you two speaking from ZERO personal experience youd see why suspicion kills.Quite the contrary. Growing up Black in the USA in the sixties, I was mortally aware that the suspicion of every white cop I saw could kill me. And he wasn't going to jail for it either.

'killing children is justified, go out and do it''-No one has EVER told us that. Take that first hand knowledge.I gather you were/are in the IDF, and I am not. I must defer to you. However, if a children ARE killed on suspicion, which seemingly DOES occur, and soldiers are usually cleared of wrongdoing in such matters, which seemingly DOES occur, it does LOOK like an implicit situation of 'killing children is justified, go out and do it'. Perhaps an 'if necessary' needs to be put on the end of that.

Thanks in advance for the list. But 'human shields' depending on the definition, is a LONG way from children being 'the aggressors'.

I don't expect Israelis to sit quietly and be killed. But if 'human shields' turns out to be, 'we suspected a terrorist was in the building among the 10 children we blew the place up', that's NOT, 'a terrorist using children as human shields'. That's 'the IDF would rather Palestinan children died when they killed the terrorist than Israeli soldiers'. Of course, I do NOT know that's what you're defining as children being used as 'human shields'.

The terminology covers a lot, which is a large part of the problem.

You can describe the same event two different ways, bith can be factual, but one makes the event seem regretable, but necessary. The other makes it seem completely immoral, and arbitrary.

But again, thanks for being willing to try. A sixteen year old kid violating curfew in a war zone IS defined as a child, but I wouldn't expect a soldier to make the distinction between a 16 year old and an 18 year old in dim light. Some of these 'children' ARE doubtless combatants, despite their age. But many, many are not.

Oleh
Dec 17th, 2004, 01:19 AM
Look Volcana here are some egs of 14 and 15 yos being used as bombers etc, most if not al were foiled before they exploded themselves.
I agree on your termanology point.

The statistics given here do include "children" up to the age of 18, so there are plenty of examples.


http://www.labyrinth.net.au/~ajds/amnesty.htm
http://www.anitzioni.com/news/2002-03-07.htm
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/Israel-%20the%20Conflict%20and%20Peace-%20Answers%20to%20Frequen#children
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Terrorism+and+Islamic+Fundamentalism-/Suicide%20bombing%20thwarted%2016-July-2004
http://www.pastornet.net.au/fwn/2003/oct/art13.html
http://www.betar.co.uk/articles/betar1080557705.php
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Terrorism+and+Islamic+Fundamentalism-/2%20killed%20in%20Sderot%2028-June-2004 -Israeli four yo killed, wheres the protest and strong language over that?
http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part1.html
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Terrorism+and+Islamic+Fundamentalism-/Arrest%20of%20two%20teenage%20girls%20planning%20s uicide%20bombing%2016-June-2004
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=10238
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Terrorism+and+Islamic+Fundamentalism-/Fatah%20tricks%2012-year-old%20boy%20into%20becoming%20a%20suicide%20terror ist
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2004/childsoldiers0104/9.htm
http://www.israelnewsagency.com/palestinianterrorismchildren120314.html
http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/middleeast/Children_Under_Fire.asp
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1123588/posts
http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpage.asp?clr=1&sl=EN&id=7&docid=26544
http://www.israelnewsagency.com/israelpalestinianchildren120366.html
http://www.geocities.com/guiltypalestinianteachersparents/ -Excellent site.

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- February 2002 - Nora Shalhoob, a 16-yeaar-old Palestinian girl, was killed while charging a group of Israeli soldiers at a military checkpoint with a knife in her hand.

- March 2002 - A 16-year-old Palestinian girl named Ayat Akhras walked into a Jerusalem supermarket and detonated a bomb concealed under her clothing, killing two Israelis and wounding 22 others.

- April 2002 - 17-year-old Andaleeb Taqattaqah was recruited by a terror squad and sent to her death in a suicide attack on a crowded Jerusalem market.

- April 2002 - Three teenagers - Anwar Haamduna, Yusef Zakut, and Abu Nada - from Gaza, attempted to crawl under the perimeter fence and attack the residents of the Jewish community of Netzarim, only to be shot dead by guards.

- May 2002 - For over a month, Palestiniaan children as young as 10 barricaded themselves in Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity, alongside Palestinian gunmen.

May 2002 - A 16-year-old Palestinian boy was arrested in a taxi near Jenin with a suicide bomb on his body.

- June 2002 - A 15-year-old Palestinian ggirl, arrested for throwing a firebomb at IDF soldiers, admitted during interrogation that she had previously been recruited as a suicide terrorist.

- July 2002 - Israeli security forces arrrested another 15-year-old Palestinian girl who admitted to having agreed to carry out a suicide attack in Israel.

USA Today correspondent Jack Kelley reported:

"Children serve as infantry in the confrontations between Israeli and Palestinian soldiers. In scenes reminiscent of Iranian children sent to the Iraqi front equipped with plastic keys to heaven, Palestinian children are sent close to Israeli positions with rocks and Molotov cocktails, while the gunmen and snipers fire from positions hundreds of yards back." (Oct. 23, 2000)

The Jordanian newspaper "Alrai" (citing an interview with the Kuwaiti newspaper "Alzaman" on 20 June 2002), quotes Abu Mazen, Deputy Chairman of the Palestinian Authority, who spoke of how Palestinian children are being exploited into carrying out terror attacks:

"At least 40 children from the city of Raphah have lost their arms as a result of the explosions of pipe bombs. They received five Israeli shekels (about one U.S. dollar) for throwing them." (see original article at
<http://honestreporting.com/graphics/abumazen.gif>)

The Palestinian Authority has provided children with military training. The New York Times reports that 25,000 children were trained in the summer 2000 in PA camps in the use of firearms, the making of Molotov cocktails, the methods of kidnapping Israeli leaders, and conducting ambushes. (New York Times - Aug. 3, 2000)

The use of children reflects a long-time Palestinian strategy in the fight against Israel. In June 1982, the PLO issued a military call-up order for all boys aged 12 and older whose fathers served in Fatah units. The children were promised $80 a month and were attached to regular PLO battalions, each serving in his father's company.

A Palestinian Authority tactic is to encourage children to seek heroic Shahada (martyrdom) -- and then use the numbers of dead children in their PR war against Israel. Sam Kiley describes in The London Times:

"Since birth, Palestinian children have been pumped full of religious fundamentalism which promises paradise for those who die for the cause of free Palestine... Approving or not, the Palestinian authorities have done nothing to stop children playing with their lives. Let's face it, dead kids make great telly." ("A Deadly Game" - Oct. 19, 2000)

The average Western mind has trouble comprehending a society that might intentionally seek death, in order to advance a political cause. Reporters assume that if Palestinian children are being killed, it can only be Israel's fault.

Yet as Arafat adviser Bassam Abu Sharif told Time magazine: "If he knows he will achieve a political point that will get him closer to independence and if that will cost him 10,000 killed, he wouldn't mind."

Indeed, fault for most of these casualties lies strictly with the PA. Salah Shehadeh operated from a heavily populated neighborhood, precisely because he knew the civilians would serve as a human shield against any Israeli attempt to assassinate him. Writing in the NY Post, John Podhoretz explains:

"The Fourth Geneva Convention goes into great and elaborate detail about how to assign fault when military activities take place in civilian areas... Hamas is at war with Israel. But instead of separating themselves from the general population in military camps and wearing uniforms, as required by international law, Hamas members and other Palestinian terrorists try to use civilians -- the "protected persons" mentioned in [The Fourth Geneva Convention] 3:1:28 -- as living camouflage. To prevent such a thing from happening, international law explicitly gives Israel the right to conduct military operations against military targets under these circumstances."
<http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/53201.htm>

Speaking about another region of the world, U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said:

"Let there be no doubt, the responsibility for every casualty of this war, lies with the Taliban. They use civilians as human shields, and place their arsenal among their homes. We did not look to commence this conflict -- the war was thrown at us, and we are defending ourselves."

===== (3) PALESTINIAN CULTURE OF MARTYRDOM =====

In recent searches of Palestinian homes, the IDF has discovered disturbing "family photos": One shows a Palestinian baby with a semiautomatic pistol and machine gun, and another shows a baby wearing a pretend explosives belt with red wires strapped to his waist.
<http://www.honestreporting.com/graphics/babies.jpg>

The Palestinian media is a primary vehicle used to promote the martyrdom of children. In Sept. 2002, the PA renewed broadcasting of one of the most odious PA video clips, the "Farewell Letter." In the clip, a child writes a farewell letter to his parents, glorifying his desire to die, and then places himself in front of Israeli soldiers during a violent riot where he is shot and dies, achieving his goal. The words are sung: " For my country, I shall sacrifice myself... How sweet is Shahada [martyrdom]... Be joyous over my blood and do not cry for me." (source: IMRA.org)

Another Palestinian Authority TV program clip, aimed at young viewers, features a boy killed in Gaza arriving in heaven where there are beaches, waterfalls, and a Ferris wheel. He is saying, "I am not waving goodbye, I am waving to tell you to follow in my footsteps." On the accompanying soundtrack, a song plays, "How pleasant is the smell of martyrs, how pleasant the smell of land, the land enriched by the blood, the blood pouring out of a fresh body."

Religious leaders also encourage the martyrdom of children. Sheik 'Ikrimi Sabri, the Palestinian Authority-appointed mufti of Jerusalem, declared: "I feel the martyr is lucky because the angels usher him to his wedding in heaven... The younger the martyr, the greater and the more I respect him." ("Al-Ahram Al-Arabi" - Oct. 28, 2000)

Parents are also portrayed in Palestinian society as supporting their children's death. "Al-Ayyam" newspaper quotes a mother who encouraged her sons to sacrifice themselves for Palestinian beliefs:

"The danger of injury to the boy Tzabar Ashkaram, 18, paralysis and permanent disability, just added to his mother's determination to encourage her sons to participate in the intifada riots... the fact of his injury by a live bullet did not cause her to mourn. She said she had previously lost her older son, Iyyad." (Nov. 1, 2000)

Another Palestinian mother was quoted in the London Times: "I am happy that [my 13-year-old son] has been martyred. I will sacrifice all my [12] sons and daughters to Al-Aqsa and Jerusalem."

BBC broadcast a video of a proud Palestinian mother embracing her son and sends him proudly on his way to kill Jews. "God willing you will succeed," she says. "May every bullet hit its target, and may God give you martyrdom. This is the best day of my life."
<http://honestreporting.com/a/r/247.asp>

(All this makes one wonder about the sanctimonious pronouncements of Palestinian spokeswoman Hanan Ashrawi who, when asked about the Palestinian Authority dispatching children into battle with Israeli soldiers, angrily turned on her interviewer:

"They're telling us we are -- we have no feelings for our children? We're not human beings? We're not parents? We're not mothers or fathers? This is just incredible. I sometimes I say I don't want to sink to the level of responding, or proving I'm human. I mean, even animals have feelings for their children." ("60 Minutes," October 24, 2000)

Encouraging children to martyrdom extends into Palestinian classrooms and textbooks as well. Palestinian Brig. Gen. Mahmoud M. Abu Marzoug reminded a group of 10th grade girls in Gaza City that "as a martyr, you will be alive in Heaven." After the address, a group of these girls lined up to assure a Washington Post reporter that they would be happy to carry out suicide bombings or other actions ending in their deaths. (Washington Post - April 24, 2002)

Ramahan Sahadi Abed Rabbah, 13, when asked why he participated in clashes with soldiers, was quoted in "Al-Hayat" as saying, "My purpose is not to be wounded but something more sublime -- martyrdom." (Nov. 8, 2000)

The problem has infested all parts of Palestinian society. Suicide bombing is considered a source of neighborhood pride, as streets are named after the perpetrators of these atrocities. Signs on the walls of kindergartens proclaim their students as "the shaheeds [martyrs] of tomorrow." Some children draw pictures and fantasize about the day when they achieve their goal.

"When I become a martyr, give out Kannafa [sweet cake]," one 14-year-old boy was reported to have told his friends in the days prior to his death in the riots. A 12-year-old boy who died in the fighting was reported to have so yearned for martyrdom that he wrote his own death announcements on the walls of his home.

Under these cultural influences, many children readily admit that they want to become suicide bombers. In June 2002, a documentary on PA television presented a survey conducted by Dr. Fatsil Abu Hin, a lecturer in psychology in the Gaza Strip. He interviewed 996 children between the ages of nine to 17. Ninety percent expressed their desire to participate in intifada activities, and 73% expressed a desire to become martyrs.

"Muslim Fun," a CD-ROM produced in the UK, includes a game called "The Resistance" in which "you are a farmer in south Lebanon who has joined the Islamic Resistance to defend your land and family from the invading Zionists." The Islamic Fun Web site recommends the game for children ages five and up and says: "Your child will learn about Islam by playing lots of exciting games, full of colourful animations and cute sounds effects."
<http://www.inminds.co.uk/islamic-fun.html>

Palestinian children at the Balata camp have thrown away their Pokemon cards in favor of necklace-pendants with pictures of Palestinian suicide bombers. The children spend their meager allowances to collect and trade them, hunting for prized martyr pictures like a vintage baseball card.

One Palestinian parent told the Toronto Star (June 17, 2002): "I opened my son's closet and found it full of martyrs posters and necklaces. I said to him... `Ultimately, you'll be rewarded with your picture hanging from a necklace, and we will have lost a son.'"

"These children are convinced that martyrdom is a holy thing, something worthy of the ultimate respect," said Munir Jabal, head of a Balata teachers association. "They worship these pictures. I think it will lead them in the future to go out and do the same thing."

Weiner reports that a another reason Palestinian parents allow and even encourage their children to get involved is the financial incentive offered to families of "martyrs." Thus, the Palestinian Authority furnishes a cash payment -- $2,000 per child killed and $300 per child wounded. Saudi Arabia announced that it had pledged $250 million as its first contribution to a billion-dollar fund aimed at supporting the families of Palestinian martyrs.

In addition, the Arab Liberation Front, a Palestinian group loyal to Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, pays generous bounties to the injured and the families of the dead according to the following sliding scale: $500 for a wound; $1,000 for disability; $10,000 to the family of each martyr; and $25,000 to the family of every martyr suicide bomber -- lavish sums, given the chronic unemployment and poverty of the majority of the Palestinian residents of the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

===== (4) VIOLATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS =====

Yet not everyone agrees with the PA's techniques of child abuse.

Fox News quotes Atta Sarasara, a father of a 16-year-old suicide bomber, who Fox says "is angry with not just the Israelis, but also with the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades for preying on impressionable teenagers and giving his son a bomb. 'They used a child. He was very kind, handsome, smart. They used him,' Sarasara said."
<http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,60395,00.html>

Sweden's Queen Silvia raised the issue at a meeting of the World Childhood Foundation at the United Nations. She strongly criticized Palestinian parents and leaders for "exploiting them [the children] and risking their lives in a political fight... As a mother, I'm very worried about this. I'd like to tell them to quit. This is very dangerous. The children should not take part." (Jerusalem Post - Nov. 27, 2000)

Appearing on NBC's Meet the Press, Condoleezza Rice said:

"What does that picture of a baby dressed as a suicide bomber say about the hopes of Palestinians for life with the Israeli people as good neighbors? You know, we've all, in our lives, had experiences with hatred. I certainly have in Birmingham, Alabama. And it all starts with recognizing that the other person is human and deserves a future. If you're going to send your babies and your teenagers to kill other teenagers, something has broken down in this concept of humanity."

The editorial board of the Ft. Worth Star-Telegram wrote:

"According to the AP, polls repeatedly have recorded majority Palestinian backing for suicide bombings, with a recent survey indicating more than 60 percent approval. In such an atmosphere, amid accounts of parents piously sanctioning the idea of their offspring becoming instruments of civilian death, perhaps the idea of an infant swaddled in guerrilla's clothes should not be so shocking after all."
<http://www.dfw.com/mld/startelegram/news/editorial/3626469.htm>

For a comparative perspective on the Israeli attitude toward Palestinian children, the media can look at an event this week in Israel: A 7-year-old Palestinian girl from Jerusalem is recovering well after receiving a kidney from Jonathan Jesner, the Jewish student from Scotland who was killed in a recent Palestinian suicide bombing.
<http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1032275847493>

(Ironically, earlier this year, the Islamic Association for Palestine reported that Yasser Arafat "has accused the Israeli apartheid regime of murdering Palestinian children and youths and extricating their vital organs for organ transplants.")

Some Palestinian parents are speaking out as well. Abu Saber, the father of one suicide bomber, wrote a letter to the London-based Arabic-language daily Al-Hayat:

"I ask, on my behalf and on behalf of every father and mother informed that their son has blown himself up: 'By what right do these leaders send the young people, even young boys in the flower of their youth, to their deaths?' Who gave them religious or any other legitimacy to tempt our children and urge them to their deaths?... The sums of money [paid] to the martyrs' families cause pain more than they heal; they make the families feel that they are being rewarded for the lives of their children... Do the children's lives have a price? Has death become the only way to restore the rights and liberate the land?

"And if this be the case, why doesn't a single one of all the sheikhs who compete amongst themselves in issuing fiery religious rulings, send his son? Why doesn't a single one of the leaders who cannot restrain himself in expressing his joy and ecstasy on the satellite channels every time a young Palestinian man or woman sets out to blow himself or herself up send his son?"
<http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1034014715076>

===== (5) IDF RESPONSE TO AMNESTY REPORT =====

Following are excerpts from the IDF response to Amnesty International's recent report. See the full response at:
http://www.idf.il/english/announcements/2002/october/1.stm#1 <http://www.idf.il/english/announcements/2002/october/1.stm>

The Palestinian terrorists are solely and unequivocally responsible for the injuries caused to Palestinian children. Since the beginning of the conflict two years ago, the Palestinian terrorist factions have cynically exploited children in terrorist activity, in violation of international law. Children are groomed and dispatched to carry out suicide attacks in the centers of the Israeli civilian population; positioned at the front lines of demonstrations to hide snipers behind them; and used to plant explosives and deliver weapons. Moreover, the terrorist factions have transformed Palestinian civilian population centers into terrorist activity headquarters.... Whoever uses children to perpetrate terror attacks, anyone who uses houses were children reside to coordinate and perpetrate attacks is responsible for injuring these children.

Authors of the Amnesty report compare IDF operations in which Palestinian children were killed to Palestinian terror attacks in which Israeli children were killed. This comparison is unjustified and baseless. Palestinian terror attacks, especially suicide bombings, are designated to cause the death of Israeli civilians, including children: this is ruthless, unprecedented, inhuman terror. On the other hand, IDF activity is conducted in accordance with the laws of war and is not aimed at injuring civilians. Injuries are occasionally sustained only because the Palestinian terrorists act from within centers of Palestinian civilian population. Hence, any comparison between the two is groundless, and indicates a fundamental lack of balance among authors of the report.

The authors falsely claim the IDF does not investigate incidents in which Palestinian children are injured, and grants impunity to soldiers involved. The truth is, however, that IDF commanders separately investigate each incident in which Palestinian civilians are injured. When suspicion of criminal misbehavior of the soldiers' side arises, the Military Police launches an inquiry. Since September 2000, the beginning of "Ebb and Flow", over 220 inquiries of the Military Police were launched, some of which regarding incidents in which Palestinian minors were injured.

For example, the Military Police launched inquiries over the deaths of Palestinian children near Khan Yunis on 22 November 2001, the youth Yasser Kassabi from Kalandia on 8 December 2001, the death of Muhamad Hassan Altalalaka near Beith Hanoun on 1 March 2002, the death of children in Jenin on 21 June 2002 and over other incidents. The claims that incidents are not investigated and soldiers enjoy impunity are falsified. The IDF owes its professionalism and power partly due to its willingness to engage in investigations and inquiries even in the midst of intense fighting.

Published: Sunday, October 06, 2002
The Palestinians hit a new low
As if the endless anti-semitic enticement and encouragement directed a Palestinian children wasn't enough, they're now using kids as unwitting suicide bombers <http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1079350202482&call_pageid=968332188774&col=968705899037>. (An astronaut will walk on Planet Sedna <http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_medical/story.jsp?story=501662> before the UN gets around to condemning this.)
Troops at a West Bank checkpoint arrested a 12-year-old boy today as he unknowingly tried to smuggle a bomb out of the West Bank city of Nablus, the army said.
[...]
Palestinians said the boy, from the poverty-ridden Balata refugee camp on the southern edge of the city, worked as a porter at the nearby Huwwara checkpoint, helping to carry the belongings of Palestinians forbidden to drive through.
The security officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the boy was hired to carry baggage by militants linked to Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement and did not know the contents of the backpack they gave him.
The officials said that the militants planned to explode the device as the boy passed through the checkpoint, but failed because of a technical fault. The explosion would have killed the boy and nearby soldiers.
The Israeli army is hardly an unbiased source, so it's possible this story is just propaganda. But it's certainly believable <http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2075072.stm>.
Boy used as bomb dupe [17mar04] <http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,8991359%5E401,00.html>
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http://www.geocities.com/guiltypalestinianteachersparents/enfants_chair_canon_1099.art
http://www.geocities.com/guiltypalestinianteachersparents/image002_344.jpg
http://www.israelnewsagency.com/palestinianchildterrorism.jpg
http://www.israelnewsagency.com/Child_snipers.gif

Oleh
Dec 17th, 2004, 01:26 AM
Im not saying the Palestinians are innocent victims. Some of the Palestinian atrocities are sickening.

But I understand the desperation they are in and what drives them to terrorism. When you are faced with a lifetime of misery and suffering, living in glorified concentration camps, having to pass through checkpoints where you are humiliated daily on the way to the market, or having to walk an exta 10 miles to school because Israel decided to put a new Berlin type wall up through the middle of your village with no logical reason why, becoming a Martyr as a suicide bomber looks like an appealing option.

I grew up believing in Israel as a big victime of the palestinians due to the mainstream media coverage in Australia. But when I became old enough to think for myself, I can see why the Palestinians are so desperate to resort to such awful tactics.

Why are we there in the first place? We didnt declare war on Israel to run the Jews into the sea. I agree that some things we screwed up in the past making the occupation a deep pit for ourselves, and it takes time to get out of it now. And when we do try nothing is good enough-double standards.

The "Berlin style wall"...an extra 10 k's or an extra 10 Israeli lives? not your choice, and im glad its not. If you think life is less important than convenience when you still have life you are morally corrupt. Palestine will get its state when it throws down its weapons, Israel has heard them, finally. But they wont, like the attaqck in Rafah, our peace offers count for nothing to them. May g-d let abbas win the elections, he is the only one of them with some sensibility.

Volcana
Dec 17th, 2004, 01:36 AM
Look Volcana here are some egs of 14 and 15 yos being used as bombers etc, most if not al were foiled before they exploded themselves.
I agree on your termanology point.There's obvously alot to read here, but let me say this. Now THAT, is a post!

Some of what I read there still seems to be simply someone's belief, but a lot of it cross-references as factual. Further, you made sure to include quotes that show that all Palestinians don't support such activity.

I still disagree with some of the IDF response to Amnesty Internationals report, but not all of it. If you send a 13 year old into a market with a backpack full of plastique, you're not giving the soldier who spots her much choice.

OTOH, there are other ways of dealing with the fact that Palestinian militants operate in populated areas. Those ways are more dangerous to soldiers, but less dangerous to civilians. I think the IDF has to take the hit for that. But even there, the IDF is not all wrong.

It is NOT 'unjustified and baseless' to compare 'IDF operations in which Palestinian children were killed to Palestinian terror attacks in which Israeli children were killed.' However, the two things aren't morally equivalent.

I'll write more when I've got through all those links. Nice post. Wish I'd written that one.

Volcana
Dec 18th, 2004, 06:16 AM
http://www.labyrinth.net.au/~ajds/amnesty.htm
http://www.anitzioni.com/news/2002-03-07.htm
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/Israel-%20the%20Conflict%20and%20Peace-%20Answers%20to%20Frequen#children
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Terrorism+and+Islamic+Fundamentalism-/Suicide%20bombing%20thwarted%2016-July-2004
http://www.pastornet.net.au/fwn/2003/oct/art13.html
http://www.betar.co.uk/articles/betar1080557705.php
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Terrorism+and+Islamic+Fundamentalism-/2%20killed%20in%20Sderot%2028-June-2004 -Israeli four yo killed, wheres the protest and strong language over that?
http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part1.html
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Terrorism+and+Islamic+Fundamentalism-/Arrest%20of%20two%20teenage%20girls%20planning%20s uicide%20bombing%2016-June-2004
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=10238
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Terrorism+and+Islamic+Fundamentalism-/Fatah%20tricks%2012-year-old%20boy%20into%20becoming%20a%20suicide%20terror ist
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2004/childsoldiers0104/9.htm
http://www.israelnewsagency.com/palestinianterrorismchildren120314.html
http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/middleeast/Children_Under_Fire.asp
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1123588/posts
http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpage.asp?clr=1&sl=EN&id=7&docid=26544
http://www.israelnewsagency.com/israelpalestinianchildren120366.html
http://www.geocities.com/guiltypalestinianteachersparents/ -Excellent site.Someone for whom I'm developing great respect made a point that bears on this.
Also look at the source, it has propaganda values thus decrediting it to an extent.It seems to me that you feel the sources that support YOUR side are unbiased, and the sources that support the other side ARE biased. Do you see that the Palestinians feel EXACTLY the same way?

If the Israelis have a right to defend themselves, do not the Palestinians ALSO have right to defend themselves? AND, in the objective case, does the side doing most of the dying not have MORE of a need to defend themselves? Lastly, suppose the Palestinians prove as willing as the Jews to pursue the re-occupation of their land? Does the legacy of Israel become the millions it is willing to kill to keep their land pure? I'm sure these are issues debated in Israel. Some reports of those debates make their way here. Considering the USA became the dominant military power in the world by more or less killing everyone in its way, I can hardly accuse Israel of being a moral inferior in the fellowship of nations, regardless of the outcome of that debate.

Still, it is one thing to be stationery on a slippery slope. It is wuite another to be sliding down it.

Oleh
Dec 19th, 2004, 06:28 AM
"does the side doing most of the dying not have MORE of a need to defend themselves?"
-Not if their povoking it or asking for it.

Yes im aware of my sources, but seriously who reprts on Israel? Who reports when we foil an attack etc? No one as no one cares if no one dies but people were prevented from dying. Look ill show you videos of Palestinians in actions by palestinians. The you can litteraly see for yourself.

"defend themselves?"
-Detonating a bomb right after Olso was not defense. Nor has it been us who fired the first shots after each and every so called peace agreements-once again damned if we do damned if we dont.

-I do respect you and your argument also, I really just want you to see whats goin on so you can see WHY things are the way they are-stay tuned im working on somthing, im just too tired at the moment!!

"Sluggy"
Dec 19th, 2004, 08:09 AM
Lets play a game. In dances with wolves, Kevin Kostner got a new American Indian name. They called him, "Dances with Wovles" because they saw him dancing with a wolf. Now what name would the tribe give to Volcana? How about:

1. Demented American hell bent on getting us all killed
2. Islamo facist living on American soil
3. He who preaches to no one who is listening
4. He who wastes a lot of time and converts no one
5. He who infuriates his countrymen and is too chicken shit to perform the acts that he supports
6. He who probably gives money to Al Qaida but who amazingly resides in the US

Now I have a question? If a Bear jerks off in the woods, and nobody sees him, did he actually jerk off? And what if somebody did see him, does the Bear have to pay for making this innocent bystander sick?

What is the moral of the story? Youre not jerking off in the woods volcana, we can all see you.... come out with your check book and pay the debt you owe all of us... cause youre making me sick for one, and probably not just me.

"Sluggy"
Dec 19th, 2004, 08:16 AM
Oh and Czechfan you get a new name too:

I will call you: He who identifies with Bear Jerking off in the woods.

Volcana
Dec 20th, 2004, 04:33 AM
1. Demented American hell bent on getting us all killed
2. Islamo facist living on American soil
3. He who preaches to no one who is listeningExcuse me for a second.

"does the side doing most of the dying not have MORE of a need to defend themselves?"
-Not if their povoking it or asking for it.But the people who are dying who AREN'T involved in 'provoking it or asking for it', innocent bystanders, you then agree they DO have that right?
stay tuned im working on somthing, im just too tired at the moment!!No problem. Having you around is turning out to be pretty fucking cool, Oleh. And you provided enough sources backing up your arguements that I have to concede your position has significant merit.

Where was I? Oh yeah. You were saying, Ribbit?
4. He who wastes a lot of time and converts no one
5. He who infuriates his countrymen and is too chicken shit to perform the acts that he supports
6. He who probably gives money to Al Qaida but who amazingly resides in the US

Now I have a question? If a Bear jerks off in the woods, and nobody sees him, did he actually jerk off? And what if somebody did see him, does the Bear have to pay for making this innocent bystander sick?

What is the moral of the story? You're not jerking off in the woods volcana, we can all see you.... come out with your check book and pay the debt you owe all of us... cause youre making me sick for one, and probably not just me.You want me, come and get me. You can see me, after all. Even better, report me to the FBI. If I give money to Al Qaeda, you could have me residing in Guantanamo in 24 hours. And somehow, I doubt I'd get internet access, so you'd be permanently rid of me. The FBI can, of course, get access to the WTAWorld server without having to notify the mods. They can access my bank records as well. So that is, ultimately, the best solution, if getting me out of your life is your ultimate goal. I do feel sorry for whoever this 'he' is, who's gonna get his life messed up instead of me.

Could you maybe drink a couple bottles of Drano instead? That would would improve things for all of us.

Oleh
Dec 20th, 2004, 05:00 AM
"But the people who are dying who AREN'T involved in 'provoking it or asking for it', innocent bystanders, you then agree they DO have that right?"
WHEN they are "innocent BYSTANDERS" then its wrong they die, its tragic it horrible. But when they are hoping to cop a bullet in the name of Shahada...watch the videos in the post and youll see what in many cases, yet not all, is an "innocent bystader" to the western media and PA Propaganda machines..look beneath the surface.

Hey volcana you asked about media coverage of Israeli arabs, well just today on Ha'retz there was a facinating article on the druze community (Not really Israeli arabs but another Israeli minority whos faced with social challenges here) and some issues, including the death of an innocent Palestinian chile, ironic as its two things in one (well kind of) that we've been discussing. I agree with what the article says...as do most Israelis from who ive talked to..enjoy it
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/516102.html

"Sluggy"
Dec 20th, 2004, 07:50 AM
Excuse me for a second.

But the people who are dying who AREN'T involved in 'provoking it or asking for it', innocent bystanders, you then agree they DO have that right?
No problem. Having you around is turning out to be pretty fucking cool, Oleh. And you provided enough sources backing up your arguements that I have to concede your position has significant merit.

Where was I? Oh yeah. You were saying, Ribbit?
You want me, come and get me. You can see me, after all. Even better, report me to the FBI. If I give money to Al Qaeda, you could have me residing in Guantanamo in 24 hours. And somehow, I doubt I'd get internet access, so you'd be permanently rid of me. The FBI can, of course, get access to the WTAWorld server without having to notify the mods. They can access my bank records as well. So that is, ultimately, the best solution, if getting me out of your life is your ultimate goal. I do feel sorry for whoever this 'he' is, who's gonna get his life messed up instead of me.

Could you maybe drink a couple bottles of Drano instead? That would would improve things for all of us.

Point is, nobody of any importance is listening to you. ;) I severely doubt you have changed anyones opinion on your non-relenting support of evil. :mad: In fact, you've only pushed people who would otherwise have a sympathetic ear further to the right. :) I am a perfect example. Been a liberal all my life, but people like you make me question my ideologies. Im just itching to vote Right... just give me Bloomberg, I'll vote for him just to spite people like you. :p You must feel awful alone, living in the United States but rooting for the wrong team. Just go Iran or one of those places that you love, and good riddance alreadY. :fiery: And as for your mentioning BIG BROTHER... I trust that if you pose a threat to the United States of America, He already knows who you are. :lol: Interestingly, you dont deny funding Al Qaeda. How come? do you give money to Al Qaeda? Or better put, would you give money to it, if you knew for sure you would not get sent down river? :angel: Anyway, you sound like a real hot head, why dont you go join your band of brothers over there, sounds like they could put good use to you. :)