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View Full Version : Who will have the best results in 2005: Kim Clijsters or Justine Henin-Hardenne?


Belgium = Best
Nov 12th, 2004, 10:49 AM
http://www.thedailystar.net/2003/06/06/sports01.jpg

Who?

The Crow
Nov 12th, 2004, 10:59 AM
Now this is a toughy. Let's just hope they'll both be fit for (the most part of) the next year ;)

Come-on-kim
Nov 12th, 2004, 02:46 PM
Impossible to say!!!

Depends on their health!!! All I want is them to be healthy and injury-free

fleemke³
Nov 12th, 2004, 03:41 PM
Don't care that much, off course I have my favo, but as both can play at 100% I'm happy :bounce:

Svennovitch
Nov 12th, 2004, 04:47 PM
I want them back at no. 1 & 2!! That's where they belong :D

fifiricci
Nov 12th, 2004, 04:49 PM
I think Kim if she fully recovers from injury - she's got too much to prove to herself and us to quit now.

Justine is an unknown quantity with this "mystery illness". To me it suggests that she just aint got the constitution to last at the top, if the physical price she has had to pay for last year is "exhaustion" for practically the whole of this year. :p

*fifi hears the trampling hooves of the just teenies approaching*:bolt:

carot
Nov 12th, 2004, 06:28 PM
Luckily for us Belgians we still have Kim whose constitution obviously can handle her power tennis, well except her shoulder and wrist of course ;)

Brαm
Nov 12th, 2004, 09:12 PM
If they're both healthy and able to play some 14-15 tournaments, they'll end 2005 in the top-5 at least :hearts:

Sugiyama=#1
Nov 13th, 2004, 12:01 AM
I like Kim's chance better, just because of her consistency.

saki
Nov 19th, 2004, 10:43 AM
Justine is an unknown quantity with this "mystery illness". To me it suggests that she just aint got the constitution to last at the top, if the physical price she has had to pay for last year is "exhaustion" for practically the whole of this year. :p

*fifi hears the trampling hooves of the just teenies approaching*:bolt:
:rolleyes: Actually, I agree. It's been obvious from the start that Justine is far more physically frail than Kim. Even though Kim has her injuries, she's overall much stronger and has a much better constitution so she recovers faster. That said, while I think Kim will recover better and have a more consistent year, I think Justine is more likely to win a slam or two next year than Kim is. This isn't because of any intrinsic superiority on Justine's part so much as the fact that she has less competition on her best surfaces than Kim does on hers. Justine has a very good chance at winning RG or Wimbledon if she happens to be physically fit at the right times. There are relatively few claycourters as good as her - Amelie who has a confidence problem in France, Serena who isn't completely fit or consistent either, and the army of Russians whom Justine has beaten fairly regularly. And, on grass, there's just Amelie and Serena and Maria really. Justine has the mental edge against Amelie and, against Serena, she has a chance, and we really don't know how she'd fare against Maria on grass. Kim, on the other hand, plays her best on carpet (where there is no slam), Rebound Ace where the GS is the Australian Open which she may find emotionally tough and where there are a fair few players whom she finds difficult to beat - Justine, Myskina, Serena, Lindsay, and hardcourts where she'd have serious competition from - Serena, Justine, Sveta, Dementieva, Lindsay. This isn't to say that Justine will necessarily win both RG and Wimbledon and that Kim can't win either the Oz Open or the U.S. Open, but I really think that there's more competition on Kim's best surfaces than there is on Justine's.

pigam
Nov 19th, 2004, 09:40 PM
I think Kim if she fully recovers from injury - she's got too much to prove to herself and us to quit now.

Justine is an unknown quantity with this "mystery illness". To me it suggests that she just aint got the constitution to last at the top, if the physical price she has had to pay for last year is "exhaustion" for practically the whole of this year. :p

*fifi hears the trampling hooves of the just teenies approaching*:bolt:
WATCH YOUR BACK!!! http://www.wildlifeadvocacy.org/graphics/horses.jpg


I really don't know. I'm guessing Justine, although Kim will have less trouble to reach her initial form again, I think.

~|Naomi|~
Nov 21st, 2004, 09:24 AM
My heart says Kim, but I think JHH as she is starting from a far more beficial position than Kim.

Kim is likely to fall out of the top 100 early next season and now she isn't on the GE list will have to firstly beg tournament directors for wild cards and secondly has a limited amount she can take. Who knows if she can't play Antwerp she will have no ranking, so her best shot is probably to wait till Miami and try and get a protected ranking. Whatever tournaments she does get into she is likely to get very tough draws as she will be getting seeds very early, I have no doubt Kim can beat them but at first before she regains her form it will be tough. JHH on the other hand is top 10, so has none of that to worry about and hasn't missed as much tennis as Kim has.

Greenout
Nov 22nd, 2004, 01:07 AM
I think Kim if she fully recovers from injury - she's got too much to prove to herself and us to quit now.

Justine is an unknown quantity with this "mystery illness". To me it suggests that she just aint got the constitution to last at the top, if the physical price she has had to pay for last year is "exhaustion" for practically the whole of this year. :p

*fifi hears the trampling hooves of the just teenies approaching*:bolt:


Justine may play less; but she'll be more successful simply because
she loves and lives for tennis. Different attitude, better results.

Exhaustion for playing straight thru 2001-2003 going up, up and up.
I can barely handle my jet lag from London to Singapore via
Bangkok with a 6 hour wait at Heathrow, and a 3 hour wait at
Bangkok. And this isn't even including the actual flight time in
air. 12 hours from London to Thailand, and another 3 hours from
Thailand to Singapore. My body still isn't sure if it's suppose to
eat breakfast or dinner!!!

Unless you know about jet travel in 3 different time zones,
judging someone else's health based on regular grounded career
schedules that do not include commutes across continents
please refrain from commentary.
:rolleyes:


How many times have some of you gone from Europe to Asia
and back into the USA? ???????????

Greenout
Nov 22nd, 2004, 01:12 AM
:rolleyes: Actually, I agree. It's been obvious from the start that Justine is far more physically frail than Kim. Even though Kim has her injuries, she's overall much stronger and has a much better constitution so she recovers faster. That said, while I think Kim will recover better and have a more consistent year, I think Justine is more likely to win a slam or two next year than Kim is. This isn't because of any intrinsic superiority on Justine's part so much as the fact that she has less competition on her best surfaces than Kim does on hers. Justine has a very good chance at winning RG or Wimbledon if she happens to be physically fit at the right times. There are relatively few claycourters as good as her - Amelie who has a confidence problem in France, Serena who isn't completely fit or consistent either, and the army of Russians whom Justine has beaten fairly regularly. And, on grass, there's just Amelie and Serena and Maria really. Justine has the mental edge against Amelie and, against Serena, she has a chance, and we really don't know how she'd fare against Maria on grass. Kim, on the other hand, plays her best on carpet (where there is no slam), Rebound Ace where the GS is the Australian Open which she may find emotionally tough and where there are a fair few players whom she finds difficult to beat - Justine, Myskina, Serena, Lindsay, and hardcourts where she'd have serious competition from - Serena, Justine, Sveta, Dementieva, Lindsay. This isn't to say that Justine will necessarily win both RG and Wimbledon and that Kim can't win either the Oz Open or the U.S. Open, but I really think that there's more competition on Kim's best surfaces than there is on Justine's.


If you look at her record, Justine's best surface is actually grass
and hardcourt. Hardcourts! There's tons of competition there.
There's a myth because she won RG that clay is her most successful
surface.

Err...right no competition like at the US OPEN and the Australian
Open. Uhuh.
:rolleyes:


*Why the JHH bashing here? I thought this thread was about
who will have a better season, not [Who you hope will lose
and fail, fall on their face and eat dirt?]. :rolleyes:

Can't we all just be civil, for a change? :eek:

nicky
Nov 22nd, 2004, 07:02 AM
Greenout, there is no JHH bashing here - it's the expression of opinions on Kim & Justine's health and possibilities. For heaven's sake, as far as I know Saki is a Justine fan. So please quit being paranoid every time somebody posts something that does not coincide with you idea about your fave. The only way to have a discussion is contrasting opinions.

As for the subject discussed: I really do not know. Depends on their health, and that's a big question mark for all of us (and maybe also for them - who knows?).

Let's just hope they both get healthy next year: as we have seen in the past, they seem to need each other to get great results ;) :)

saki
Nov 22nd, 2004, 07:20 AM
If you look at her record, Justine's best surface is actually grass
and hardcourt. Hardcourts! There's tons of competition there.
There's a myth because she won RG that clay is her most successful
surface.

Err...right no competition like at the US OPEN and the Australian
Open. Uhuh.
:rolleyes:


*Why the JHH bashing here? I thought this thread was about
who will have a better season, not [Who you hope will lose
and fail, fall on their face and eat dirt?]. :rolleyes:

Can't we all just be civil, for a change? :eek:
I thought I was being civil and I'm a Justine fan anyway... So, yeah, fair enough if you disagree but I'm hardly hoping Justine will lose and fail! yes, in terms of records, Justine's better on hardcourt, but somehow I feel that she's got more potential to win more claycourt tournaments than hard. It's intuition rather than fact based, so I understand that not everyone disagrees. In some ways, grass and clay are surfaces that are more difficult to play on, so I'm in no way bashing Justine for being good on them - quite the contrary! - just pointing out that they're specialist surfaces and so Justine being good on them gives her more GS chances.

Greenout
Nov 22nd, 2004, 08:01 AM
Greenout, there is no JHH bashing here - it's the expression of opinions on Kim & Justine's health and possibilities. For heaven's sake, as far as I know Saki is a Justine fan. So please quit being paranoid every time somebody posts something that does not coincide with you idea about your fave. The only way to have a discussion is contrasting opinions.

As for the subject discussed: I really do not know. Depends on their health, and that's a big question mark for all of us (and maybe also for them - who knows?).

Let's just hope they both get healthy next year: as we have seen in the past, they seem to need each other to get great results ;) :)


All I'm doing is having my opinion to your opinion. Don't use
the insulting term "paranoid". Right, it's ok to insult me.
Let's treat the JHH fans as trite or "paranoid" to shut them down.
:rolleyes:

Greenout
Nov 22nd, 2004, 08:04 AM
I thought I was being civil and I'm a Justine fan anyway... So, yeah, fair enough if you disagree but I'm hardly hoping Justine will lose and fail! yes, in terms of records, Justine's better on hardcourt, but somehow I feel that she's got more potential to win more claycourt tournaments than hard. It's intuition rather than fact based, so I understand that not everyone disagrees. In some ways, grass and clay are surfaces that are more difficult to play on, so I'm in no way bashing Justine for being good on them - quite the contrary! - just pointing out that they're specialist surfaces and so Justine being good on them gives her more GS chances.

She's an all court player now. Sorry; but that's my opinion.
And JHH wasn't lucky, she earned her matches in grand slams
the hard way. Again you may disagree.

Svennovitch
Nov 22nd, 2004, 09:28 AM
All I'm doing is having my opinion to your opinion. Don't use
the insulting term "paranoid". Right, it's ok to insult me.
Let's treat the JHH fans as trite or "paranoid" to shut them down.
:rolleyes:
:rolleyes: pffft

saki
Nov 22nd, 2004, 10:04 AM
She's an all court player now. Sorry; but that's my opinion.
And JHH wasn't lucky, she earned her matches in grand slams
the hard way. Again you may disagree.
What?! I agree. She wasn't lucky, she won her matches in grand slams. I don't see where I've said otherwise. I just think that the fact that she's so strong on clay and grass, the surfaces that others are weaker on, gives her a better shot at a slam next year. She's also very strong on Rebound Ace and hardcourts - you don't get to number 1 and win the slams on those surfaces without being very good on them - but the fact that she's strong on surfaces where others are not is a good sign for her. It's fair enough if you disagree and think she has an equal shot at all four slams. Personally, I think that you can be an all-court player but still have a higher chance at some slams than others because of the surfaces that other players are better or worse on. Tennis isn't just about one player, it's about how that player fares in the mix of players playing at that particular time and I think Justine's strengths and talents are different to the rest of the top ten and thus she does well. Similarly, Navratilova would have won more on clay had it not been for Evert, because although she was very good on clay, Evert was just slightly better.

Grohl
Nov 22nd, 2004, 11:59 AM
Kim

fifiricci
Nov 22nd, 2004, 01:37 PM
I was pleasantly surpised with your post and accept some of the points you make, but not this one:

Kim, on the other hand, plays her best on carpet (where there is no slam), Rebound Ace where the GS is the Australian Open which she may find emotionally tough and where there are a fair few players whom she finds difficult to beat - Justine, Myskina, Serena, Lindsay, and hardcourts where she'd have serious competition from - Serena, Justine, Sveta, Dementieva, Lindsay.
I don't think that assessment of Kim finding all of those players "hard to beat" would stand up if you looked at the h2hs (Justine outside the GSs? Lindsay?Myskina? Dementieva?).

saki
Nov 22nd, 2004, 02:37 PM
I was pleasantly surpised with your post and accept some of the points you make, but not this one:


I don't think that assessment of Kim finding all of those players "hard to beat" would stand up if you looked at the h2hs (Justine outside the GSs? Lindsay?Myskina? Dementieva?).
With Justine - I was talking about the GSes, so I stick with that one. Lindsay, yeah, on reflection you're probably right. Myskina hasn't beaten Kim that often (twice, from memory? Can't remember) but she has regularly taken her to three sets which would make Kim tired for the following match - so, I think "hard to beat" is still fair, even though it's less likely that Kim'll actually lose to her. Ditto on Dementieva, pretty much. For what it's worth, I'd actually say that Kim ought to hone up on her clay skills because RG is the GS she's come closest to winning and I really think that, although she might be better in absolute terms on Rebound Ace or hardcourt, she still has a better shot at RG.

pigam
Nov 22nd, 2004, 03:32 PM
OMG!
BBB == == ==> GM
OMFG ROTFLMFAO!!! :eek: :bolt:


who can read this code :p :rolleyes: ;)

fifiricci
Nov 25th, 2004, 10:06 AM
[QUOTE=saki]With Justine - I was talking about the GSes, so I stick with that one. QUOTE]

:lol: I like the way you have to be selective about Justine's victories and disregard the complete h2h, to try and win the argument!

The Crow
Nov 25th, 2004, 10:36 AM
I don't think that assessment of Kim finding all of those players "hard to beat" would stand up if you looked at the h2hs (Justine outside the GSs? ).
So this last bit isn't selective then? :p

fifiricci
Nov 25th, 2004, 11:12 AM
So this last bit isn't selective then? :p
No, it was demonstrating my point that outside the GSs Justine is not "harder" to beat than any other top player Kim has come up against.

:lol:

If you want to be that petty, I'll sink to your level and suggest that Saki is being "more" selective by not including any matches that are not GS finals :rolleyes: !

saki
Nov 26th, 2004, 10:37 AM
[QUOTE=saki]With Justine - I was talking about the GSes, so I stick with that one. QUOTE]

:lol: I like the way you have to be selective about Justine's victories and disregard the complete h2h, to try and win the argument!
That was because I was talking about winning Grand Slams. If you'd prefer to talk about who will have the better year, including all WTA tournaments, then we can do that instead, but when we're talking about Grand Slams, it is the GS head to head that matters. And Kim's problems with Justine in Grand Slams will make it less likely that she'll win one. Surely that's just obvious?

fifiricci
Nov 26th, 2004, 11:13 PM
Unless you know about jet travel in 3 different time zones,
judging someone else's health based on regular grounded career
schedules that do not include commutes across continents
please refrain from commentary.
:rolleyes:


How many times have some of you gone from Europe to Asia
and back into the USA? ???????????Oh and Justine is the only one who has to cross continents on a PLANE, Kim and the rest of the girls on tour just say "BEAM ME UP SCOTTY!" :lol:

Please refrain from commentary if you cant even attempt to be vaguely objective! :rolleyes:

Kim_for_number_1
Nov 27th, 2004, 09:19 AM
I just want them both to come back and be healthy (but I'm hoping kim of course)

fifiricci
Nov 27th, 2004, 09:44 AM
That was because I was talking about winning Grand Slams. If you'd prefer to talk about who will have the better year, including all WTA tournaments, then we can do that instead, but when we're talking about Grand Slams, it is the GS head to head that matters. And Kim's problems with Justine in Grand Slams will make it less likely that she'll win one. Surely that's just obvious?I think I conceded the point about GSs in my original post, but if you want to keep going over it, that's your issue. :rolleyes:

I think it would be rational and reasonable to look at all tournaments in 2005 (after all that's what the thread title asks), but I can understand why Justine fans might want to only look at scene with the GSs in, rather than the complete picture!

Let me demonstrate: if I adopt your selective way of looking at things, I can take out the GS results from the 2003 head to head between Justine and Kim. That puts Kim ahead 4-2 for 2003. So if you apply that statistic to a 2005 prediction, who is likely to do better? :rolleyes:

Allez-H
Nov 28th, 2004, 11:29 AM
But fact still is that the GS's are more important than any other tournament.

~|Naomi|~
Nov 28th, 2004, 11:41 AM
That was because I was talking about winning Grand Slams.
If that is so then you contradict yourself, the record against Justine only includes GS matches yet with Myskina


Myskina hasn't beaten Kim that often (twice, from memory? Can't remember) but she has regularly taken her to three sets which would make Kim tired for the following match - so, I think "hard to beat" is still fair, even though it's less likely that Kim'll actually lose to her.

Well if you are saying Kim-Nastya often go to three sets then you are not looking at their slam record as they have played 3 times in slams and all three have been 2 set matches, 2000 in wimbledon won by Nastya and the 2003 and 2004 AO QF by Kim.


But fact still is that the GS's are more important than any other tournament.
I agree but the question was who will have the better results overall not in slams and we don't know Kim and Justine may not play each other in a slam next year. I still think JHH will have a better year, afterall she has been able to start practicing again something Kim hasn't.

drivevolley
Nov 29th, 2004, 02:36 PM
Im not actually sure on this one!!! Im hoping Justine (although I like Kim) but it really depends with injuries. I think Justine might as she has had a bit more time to practise but I think Kim will be able find her game quicker!!!
To answer.... probarbly Justine but you never know!!!

Belgium = Best
Mar 2nd, 2005, 02:35 PM
When is Justine's next tournament?

http://www.ultimatenzsoccer.com/ce40f2c0.jpg

Grohl
Mar 2nd, 2005, 02:37 PM
if they both have an injury-free year and stay healthy for 100% then I don't care!
I want to be able to chear for the belgian babes again (kim the most ofcourse)

fleemke³
Mar 2nd, 2005, 02:52 PM
When is Justine's next tournament?

http://www.ultimatenzsoccer.com/ce40f2c0.jpg

She is listed for Miami otherwise it will be Amelia Island :)

.ivy.
Mar 5th, 2005, 04:53 PM
Going with Justine. I just feel like she'll have the complete dedication to get back to Number One, and because she's missed out on so much her drive'll be at an all time high.