This is sort of a spin off of Volcana's post. Most people thought that Jelena or Justine would be most likely to drop out of the top ten. I checked the ITF player database and it stated that these players have never played. <br />My question is, if these two players were to play who would win, and why? You can use past results against other players to validate your argument.
Dec 17th, 2001, 11:05 PM
Dokic's determination will get her over the line.
She's really starting to bloom while Henin seemed to be going backward.
The mental difference between these 2 will be a deciding factor.
Jelena is becoming increasingly at ease with facing slice and she has become very consistent and patient with her strokes.
This question was put up in Linz, where they were drawn to meet in the semi-final. Henin lost to Tulyaganova, so they didn't meet but Dokic bagelled Iroda in the 3rd set to make it thru to the final.
I think Dokic really relishes playing the kids her own age, like Clijsters, Henin and Dementieva and I think she'd be determined not to lose.
It'd be close, going to 3.
Dokic in 3
VSFan1 aka Joshua L.
Dec 17th, 2001, 11:11 PM
Wow, there are so many variables that could change the outcome of this match....I think Justine would win 6 times out of 10, so I would go with her just because of big match experience.
Dec 17th, 2001, 11:27 PM
I go Henin on this one.
Pace: Both hit hard.
Serve: Different but about even in effectiveness.
Justine is way faster.
And even on days when you're not striking the ball well, speed gives you easier shots to hit.
Injuries aside, I think Justine will ALWAYS be ranked ahead of Jelena.
Dec 17th, 2001, 11:45 PM
Very tough call, I think they'll always be evenly matched even in their head to head record - Henin is more talented, but Dokic is mentally tougher.
Earlier in the year I would have gone for Henin, and I do agree with Volcana that she will always be ranked higher than Dokic. However, something about Dokic's wins over Kim Clijsters and Amelie Mauresmo this year makes me think that I severely underestimate what she'll achieve in the future.
Dec 17th, 2001, 11:55 PM
Henin would win, she has the variety to break Dokic's one-dimensinal game.
Dec 18th, 2001, 12:15 AM
I would Henin the slight edge at the moment. Both have good games, serves are about even, both can strike the ball well. As pointed out though, I think Justine's speed would come in handy, and more importantly she has a good finesse game, which can really keep her opponents guessing. It would depend on the circumstances, Henin could pull it out in 2 sets if she was executing her variety well. If it went to 3 sets though, I'd probably favour Dokic because Henin seems to let down a bit when she starts to lose, and Dokic continusously pounds the ball deep which in a 3 setter may eventually tire out Henin.
Dec 18th, 2001, 01:51 AM
Yipes! Is that Sabine Appelmans in that photo Josh?
Back to the Q: both are tough cookies so it's always going to be close but i give Justine a slight edge over Jelena in terms of variety of shots.
Dec 18th, 2001, 02:01 AM
I am sure everyone will be surprised but, I think Justine would win 8 out of 10 matches <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Jelena is determined, I don't doubt that, but determination isn't everything. As somebody said, her game is too unidimensional, I think the match against Martina at the US Open was a clear example, Jelena was playing well, making few errors and hitting the lines, but not doing much more and that simply wasn't enough. When Martina got used and started to return everything, Jelena just tried to hit harder and harder.
It's true that Jelena won 2 tier 1s and 1 tier 2 while Justine won 3 tier 3s, but the fact is that Jelena seems unable to play the top players. Justine has either beaten them (Capriati, Venus) or had very close matches.
Game wise, Justine can vary her game, can play at the net, from the baseline, backhand, forehand, server and volley, slice, topspin and more important, she does have a powerful weapon in her backhand, most top players avoid her backhand side like the plague. Jelena is consistent and determined, but doesn't have a big weapon.
Dec 18th, 2001, 02:13 AM
Actually, not all top players avoid her backhand side.
Dec 18th, 2001, 02:20 AM
i dont think its fair fingon to use one or use SELECTIVE examples to create an image of Jelena.
Justine is great ,she has more talent , more flair , more speed than jelena.....BUT , Jelena is just as good because of her drive , tenacity , solidness and her game once fully ripe will be more consistent than the flashy Henin IMO.
Dec 18th, 2001, 02:39 AM
Jelena does have a very solid game, but when she gets caught in her one dimensional game, she runs into trouble.
Dec 18th, 2001, 03:12 AM
I like Jelena better than Justine, but I would give Justine the edge too. She has more options in her game then Jelena. If Jelena can develop more options and they were equal then I think she would win. As of now the difference in Justine beating the top players and Jelena is Justine's ability to change up her game. When I watch Justine play she always tries through a whole match to change the momentum by trying different things. Jelena seems to keep doing the same thing whether she's winning or losing. She can't be content to just sit at the baseline and outhit her opponent. She has to add more things to her game. Right now she doesn't have enough to beat 2 or 3 top players in a row.
When your small like Justine you have to make up with it for something. She makes up for it with her speed. Plus she has a sweet backhand. Not everyone avoids it though. I've seen power hitters go right at her backhand. Sometimes she can get a good shot off, but sometimes she doesn't have enough time to set up. But she gets away with it against most people.
Dec 18th, 2001, 04:14 AM
Justine vs. Dokic...hmmm....
This one is a toughie. I was able to watch both at the USO this year and was impressed by their games...less so with Jelena's, but she stepped her game up a level at the end of the season. I think that right now they are relatively evenly matched and it would come down to a matter of surfaces. On hard courts (Justine's worst surface by far) and carpet, I would definately give the edge to Jelena. Her hard-hit, flat, deep balls will not give Justine the chance to use her greater variety of shots effectively. But on the other two surfaces I'd give Jelena an edge. On clay she has much more time to execute her wide range of shots and her spins gain more potency. On grass, her superior ability to approach the net and her slice backhand give her the tools to frustrate Jelena.
I can't wait to see this match up in 2002 though!
Dec 18th, 2001, 06:48 AM
Jelena of course!!!!!!
Dec 18th, 2001, 07:03 AM
I think a lot of people don't give Jelena the credit she deserves, because her game is very workman like and is not aesthetically pleasing like Justines or Martina's or as awesomely powerful as Venus, Serena, Lindsay, Jenn or Kim. She is one of the most, if not the most mentally tough girl on tour, her shots are flat, her serve is potent and she makes up for an apparent lack of flair with a tenacity that is rarely seen in today's players.
That said justine has untold potential and is probably the most talented player on tour, behind Martina. Her adaptibility is her greatest weapon, as she can play on all surfaces - evidenced by her performances at the French and Wimbledon and her winning streak on the australian hardcourts. Her speed and variety of shots is awesome and her psychological capacity is also rapidly on the improve.
so what of the Justine vs Jelena match up...
well i think matches between these two players will always be in the balance. In depends who is the most consistently brilliant on the day. Justine would probably have the edge on clay. Jelena's grasscourt resume is impeccable as is Justines and Jelenas flat powerful drives would make up for her lack of net game on grass. Jelena would have to be favoured on grass.
On a hardcourt I give Justine the edge, if they met at the Oz Open (which obviously they are not going to) Justine would win because of her superior footwork and her spin would be much more effective.
[ December 18, 2001: Message edited by: tennisaddict. ]</p>
Dec 18th, 2001, 07:25 AM
Justine is favourite on each surface. She would win 8 out of 10 matches against Jelena.
Jelena just hasn't got the game to win against the real topplayers. Ok, she beated Kim and Amelie this year. What does that mean? Jelena was playing very well at the end of the season, but each time she met a topplayer (this year it was almost always Davenport in the final) she got killed.
I think it's so untrue that Justine is not mentally strong. She proved it several times that she can come back from a lost position. Justine can change her game if she wants: she can play serve and volley, and she can rally from the baseline. Her backhand is much stronger, her forehand is very good too. And Justine moves a lot better on the court.
Nope I don't doubt a bit about this...
Dec 18th, 2001, 07:28 AM
Good analysis tennisaddict.
A lot of people don't like to give Jelena credit for her performances.
Like you said, it's because she doesn't have a flashy game, but it's still a very breathtaking mix of power and touch.
Trying to compare Justine vs Jelena by using USO 01 is just stupid. It shows the desperation in proving a point. Jelena at the US Open and Jelena at the end of the year were 2 different people. Any fool can see there were definite changes that occured to Jelena after that lost. It was an eye-opener for her and we all saw how angry she got, the kind of rampage she went on in terms of her tennis was amazing.
Another comparison ILUVJELENA, Dokic vs Davenport when Dokic is when Dokic is really starting to bloom...
Zurich F loses 3-6 1-6<br />Linz F loses 4-6 1-6<br />Munich QF loses 4-6 2-6
The thing with Dokic is that she beats players ranked lower than her since San Diego (but these losses do stick out in the memory: Mandula, Chladkova, Kostanic, Molik just six months ago) but she rarely gives a challenge to players ranked ABOVE her. Dokic is for many top players an easy player to play, she is consistent and hits hard but she lacks variety, if things are going wrong she has no plan B, her only option is to try and hit harder, she will not win matches against the likes of Davenport and the Williams sisters unless it is on clay or they are totally off.
Justine has that option of changing things if they are not working, if things are not working out on the baseline or she is being overpowered she can come into the net to change the rhythm.
But then not everyone can get easy draws as Dokic had after the US Open.
Dec 19th, 2001, 02:42 AM
I have a strong feeling that Justine would win, but then again Jelena is improving greatly and learning alot of little nuances of the game. I think that it will be like Matina vs Venus. The classic touch and finesse would win out in the beginning, but as Jelena learns to improve her technique etc she will start to win.
Dec 19th, 2001, 05:46 AM
It wasn't Jelena's fault that some players were unwilling to play after Sept 11.
It wasn't her fault Justine lost to Schett at Kremlin and couldn't get past Iroda (who Jelena beat) at the same event.
Henin lost more matches than Jelena at the end of the year, against lesser ranked players.
Dec 19th, 2001, 06:12 AM
Its funny, when Graf and Sabatini first came out, people said that if they played Sabatini would win. People said that Sabatini had more variety, flair and a sweet backhand. People said Graf was too one dimensional with no variety, and all she did was hit hard. People said Sabatini came out beating top players while Graf was struggling.
Well the first time they played, Sabatini led 6-2, 5-2 40/15 and lost. You all know how the rest of their rivalry turned out don't you? I say the one dimensional Dokic will have the upperhand in her overall rivalry with the sweet backhanded Henin.
Dec 19th, 2001, 06:47 AM
Sabatini didn't have a reliable serve.
Personally, I'm going to wait on this one. I'm actually a bit scared (yes, scared) about the whole "does size matter?" issue. My fear is that the bigger girls will squeeze out Hingis, Henin, Schnyder and the like. I hope it doesn't happen.
Just digging up some stats I was playing with a few weeks ago:
Total Losses<br />Henin: 18 (21 tournaments played)<br />Dokic: 23 (26)
3-Set Losses<br />H: 12<br />D: 9
2-Set Losses<br />H: 6<br />D: 14
Walkovers:<br />H: 0<br />D: 0
Tiebreakers Won in Losses<br />H: 2<br />D: 0
Tiebreakers Lost in Losses<br />H: 5<br />D: 3
<br />NOTE: All ranking figures were done using year-end rankings (week after Munich).
Losses To the Year-End Top 10<br />H: 10<br />D: 14
Losses Outside the Year-End Top 25<br />H: 2<br />D: 7
<br />And the funny numbers...
Median Rank Lost To<br />H: 10<br />D: 5
Average Rank Lost To<br />H: 15<br />D: 21
<br />Does anyone want an explanation?
[ December 19, 2001: Message edited by: cynicole ]</p>
Dec 19th, 2001, 06:52 AM
[quote]Originally posted by cynicole:<br /><strong>Sabatini didn't have a reliable serve.<br /></strong><hr></blockquote>
And neither does Henin!
Dec 19th, 2001, 06:54 AM
[quote]Originally posted by LINDSAY DAVENPORT ROCKS:<br /><strong>
And neither does Henin!</strong><hr></blockquote>
And neither does Dokic!
Dec 19th, 2001, 06:57 AM
Of course it isn't Jelena's fault that she didn't face top players, but we are not talking about that, we are talking about achievements and when you Iluvjelena try to use those results I say they are tainted.<br />Whose fault it is, it's totally irrelevant, what is important is who the players are able to beat, this is not a good intentions contest, it's tennis.
Yes, Justine lost to Barbara Schett, so did Venus Williams. Justine lost to Iroda Tulyganova, who gave Serena big trouble early in the year. If you compare Schett and Tulyganova with Mandula and co. well...
BTW, I would have considered Justine's run at Wimbledon tainted if she hadn't beaten Capriati and taken Venus to 3 sets.
Despite the final results, what I see is that Justine has beaten top players this year, like Capriati or Venus, and has come close other times, Jelena is consistent, more consistent than Justine, at the moment, I wouldn't think Jelena would lose to someone outside the top 20, while Justine might lose to a low ranked player, but Justine can beat a top player and Jelena can't, at least not at the moment and not while she doesn't add a new dimension to her game.
In average, Jelena is more consistent, but at top of their games, Justine has definitely the edge.
BTW, can you read? I said the match at the US Open against Hingis was a clear example do you know what example means? it's a fact that is used to illustrate a point, got it? I am not basing conclusions in one tournament or one match, I am giving an example and don't want to walk through all tournaments when most people would understand what "example" means.
Dec 19th, 2001, 07:01 AM
[quote]Originally posted by cynicole:<br /><strong>
And neither does Dokic!</strong><hr></blockquote>
<br />And neither does cynicole, and neither does Lindsay Davenport Rocks, and neither, Oh I'm going to bed now! <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
To all a goodnight. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Dec 19th, 2001, 07:05 AM
<img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
Dec 19th, 2001, 07:07 AM
This is really tough one to call.
I really think whoever is more lucky in that day of the match would win it.<br />I would say their confidence level is really a factor here. talent wise, I know Jelena can do better but mental wise, Justin is leading.
Dec 19th, 2001, 04:41 PM
I like both players, and it's hard to say who would consistantly beat the other, but I would give the edge to Henin. <br />Henin is quicker, and has a wicked backhand.
Dec 19th, 2001, 04:52 PM
Henin - faster
Dec 19th, 2001, 04:54 PM
And considering Justine had bad draws all year round while Jelena had pretty easy ones.
Dec 19th, 2001, 05:20 PM
Comparing these 2 at this early stage is a bit ridiculous if you asked me, then again no one asked <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> Anyway, I don't understand why Jelena's game is being called one - dimensional.. My goodness, she's only been on the tour for about 3 or 4 years. Of course she is still developing---- I don't expect her to suddenly be a threat to all the top players at this stage, because it takes a long time for some players while others have it easier.. As for her matches against Lindsay, I wouldn't put too much into them... Heck , Lindsay practically owns "most" of the players on the tour... It took my favourite player a while before she figured her out, so I expect the same for Jelena...
P.S. what is a bad draw??? If one is considered a professional tennis player, he/she should expect and be ready to face any other player at any tournament <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
Infiniti2001, you bring up a good point. Fingon, saying those losses against Lindsay confirm that she is no threat to a top player is ridiculous. I seem to remember a certain dual Wimbledon and US Open Champion who was once owned in head to head by Lindsay Davenport. Only seasoned peformers beat Lindsay at her own game, but that capacity comes with experience.
That aside, Jelena's prior match-ups with Lindsay Davenport have no bearing on her match-up with Henin. Henin is a completely different player, and a match between Jelena/Justine would be an incomprable tactical and spectatorial match to Jelena/Lindsay. In the aforementioned matchup Jelena would often be the aggressor and dictate the pattern of play, against Lindsay she is seemingly always on the backfoot which is not her game style at all. Justine gives Jelena more time to execute = Jelena is definitely in the match.
[ December 19, 2001: Message edited by: tennisaddict ]</p>
Dec 19th, 2001, 10:37 PM
it seems that Justine likes to play against hard-hitters... and that's what Jelena uses to win her matches. Jelena is not consistent enough, Juju will use the pace and win the match. Juju is best ahainst hardhitters.