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AjdeNate!
Oct 15th, 2004, 07:54 PM
I mean you feel you have a destiny that will play out over the course of your life. Like no matter what you do, it won't matter? As much as you try to change things, there's a preset course of action that your life will take?

I do.

Pengwin
Oct 15th, 2004, 08:00 PM
I don't understand this reasoning although I've heard it many times, please explain how it's impossible to control your future

kiwifan
Oct 15th, 2004, 08:02 PM
No I don't think life is predetermined; but I do believe that I am Destined for Greatness nevertheless. :devil: :cool: :devil:

Greatness (not luck) occurs when preparation meets opportunity and I'm prepared!!!

Evelyn Tremble
Oct 15th, 2004, 08:03 PM
If I do - does this mean I can also believe in reincarnation?

Martian Willow
Oct 15th, 2004, 08:41 PM
I'm prepared, but opportunity, it appears, is not.

Martian Willow
Oct 15th, 2004, 08:42 PM
I fear opportunity is busy elsewhere. :(

Lemonskin.
Oct 15th, 2004, 11:15 PM
No.

Crazy Canuck
Oct 15th, 2004, 11:58 PM
No I don't think life is predetermined; but I do believe that I am Destined for Greatness nevertheless. :devil: :cool: :devil:

Greatness (not luck) occurs when preparation meets opportunity and I'm prepared!!!
:yeah: Good attitude.

To answer the question, no, I don't believe my life is predetermined. I can't think that way. If I do, I would have to ask myself "why bother", and really, I'm just not in the mood to carry around those kinds of thoughts.

Crazy Canuck
Oct 15th, 2004, 11:58 PM
I'm prepared, but opportunity, it appears, is not.
Sometimes you have to create it. You're clearly not blowing the right people ;)

GBFH
Oct 15th, 2004, 11:59 PM
no.

although, i have really freaky déjà vu.

Sam L
Oct 16th, 2004, 12:10 AM
No. I don't believe this. But I'm thinking maybe my love-life is preset considering how much it sucks. :p

tennisIlove09
Oct 16th, 2004, 12:12 AM
I don't think it's predetermined...but I do believe that everything happens for a reason, and I do believe in fate and destiny

Martian Willow
Oct 16th, 2004, 12:28 AM
Given that we're simply moving through time, it's hard to see why the future is less determined than the past. Sometimes I think the past isn't determined, and that it changes just a much as the future. :)

Sam L
Oct 16th, 2004, 12:32 AM
Given that we're simply moving through time, it's hard to see why the future is less determined than the past. Sometimes I think the past isn't determined, and that it changes just a much as the future. :)
How so?

Martian Willow
Oct 16th, 2004, 12:50 AM
How so?

Well, I don't think in terms of past and future, just looking through time in one direction, then another. I figure there must be just as many possibilities in each direction.

Sam L
Oct 16th, 2004, 12:53 AM
Well, I don't think in terms of past and future, just looking through time in one direction, then another. I figure there must be just as many possibilities in each direction.
Oh alright I know what you mean now.

Martian Willow
Oct 16th, 2004, 12:55 AM
I'm glad someone does. :awww:

AjdeNate!
Oct 16th, 2004, 01:03 AM
But does "our" time goes in more than one direction? And are we "moving" through time? I just tend to think of time as a measure humans created. I don't see how anything that happened would change.
I think time moves and I just stand here like a complete pedestrian, helpless and hopeless.

Martian Willow
Oct 16th, 2004, 01:11 AM
I thought it was a dimension we were moving through, or something.

KoOlMaNsEaN
Oct 16th, 2004, 01:47 AM
I know there's a plan for me from God. if that's what ur saying

azza
Oct 16th, 2004, 03:20 AM
Do You Think Your Life Is Predetermined?

No.

martirogi
Oct 16th, 2004, 03:49 AM
i dont kno, sometimes i think everything is predetermined, but other times i think fate takes you to a certain point and its your choice after that

elevenis
Oct 16th, 2004, 04:32 AM
I'm glad someone does. :awww:
i do too and i agree with what you say.

Circe
Oct 16th, 2004, 05:10 AM
of course i do.
the Moirai have it all under control. Clotho, the spinner; Lachesis, the Dispenser of Lots; and Atropos the inexorable. the decisions of the fates cannot be challenged or altered, even by us Olympians.

Volcana
Oct 16th, 2004, 05:12 AM
I mean you feel you have a destiny that will play out over the course of your life. Like no matter what you do, it won't matter? As much as you try to change things, there's a preset course of action that your life will take?

I do.Nah. We have free will. But there are forces greater than we are in play as well. Get in the ocean some time, and try to swim against an undertow. You have free will, but that doesn't mean youget to do whatever you want.

Little kids in Iraq had free will. But so does a helicopter pilot firing a Tomahawk cruise missile. When the missile hits the building the kid is playing in, only one person's will is carried out.

Wigglytuff
Oct 16th, 2004, 06:02 AM
I mean you feel you have a destiny that will play out over the course of your life. Like no matter what you do, it won't matter? As much as you try to change things, there's a preset course of action that your life will take?

I do.

yes and no. ok, i am get a little personal, but i dont wanna say TOO much so if this confusing.

3 women have shaped who adult jigglypuff is.

and all three felt karma from start to finish. quick run down...
"Tiger" i met in 1998, and it felt like she was not only a friend, and to a much less extent a lover. one day i remember thinking about how much i loved her, and how much has helped shape me, hell, she picked out my glasses which have been a big part of who i am. i recall on day, early in our know each other, i had just broken up with my first girl friend, and she was working some 4 states away. i walked out of that college cafeteria think, god what i would not do from a tiger-hug, and when i looked up there she was. that is how our friendship/relationship went.

"L" i met in early 2001, i walked into an anti-racist training section, and i recall this one white one, just SPOKE IT!!, i mean this girl knew what she was talking about, and the more she talked the more i found myself just liking her. at the end i went up to her, and we stood there as the room emptied out talking for 1+ hour. in the end i decided what i wasn't sure if she was a lesbian so i decided not to ask her out. like i wanted to, and so she drove away. but i thought about her ... a LOT... and then about 1 month late, i want in a book store, some distance from where the training had been and low and behold there she was. this time we talked again, and felt that same pull that forces one to think. so i got her number, and we went on the two best dates ever. these two evening shook my soul and turned my everything around. but she lost a parent after that second date. and that was how our "relationship" ended before it began. she insisted on remaining friends, and she been soooooo fucking amazing its scary.

"Stone". its enough to say that at every set of the way it felt karmic and predetermined, like she was meant for who i was, and like i was meant for who she was. in the sense that begin together felt "predetermined". when we first met, i remember knowing things about her, that are to detailed to be just random, to detailed to be good guesses. karmic. just karmic. things happened that were above and beyond us things what we did not control or wish, or could have avoided, things that had nothing to do with "us", but that i knew would happen from a "message" i got in early 2001 before i met "L". and i know because i have it on tape. again, knowing about, doesnt mean controlling something that has nothing to do with you.

so yes, things do happen that, i believe are SUPPOSED to happen.

but in all this there is always a sense of how you react, and THAT is NOT predetermined. that is someting that you can control. NO i didnt know that 1-"Tiger" would be there when i needed her most. 2-or that "L" would reappear and then "disappear" only to "reappear". 3-Yes i knew what would happen to "Stone" but even if i had played the tape there was nothing i could of done to stop it or even she herself.

BUT 1-i CHOSE to hug "Tiger", and give her a place to stay for the few days she was in town! 2- i CHOSE to be there for for "L" as she needed, i could of just walked away but i CHOSE not too. 3- i CHOSE to be there for "Stone" even though i know from the message, that i got that should not have been, and indeed in retrospect my life would have been 10000X easier if had just NOT been there.

i may delete this post in the morning, i already wonder if its too personal.

anyway rant aside, yes some EVENTS maybe predeterminded, but still, sometimes we are lucky enough to have choices on how we deal, and it is these choices define us.

Mariangelina
Oct 16th, 2004, 11:09 AM
I think everything happens for a reason and that there are certain directions our lives get pushed in, but that our free choice changes what eventually happens to us.

kabuki
Oct 16th, 2004, 12:41 PM
It's free will, baby! Don't mistake coincidences or circumstances as fate.

Wigglytuff
Oct 16th, 2004, 01:12 PM
It's free will, baby! Don't mistake coincidences or circumstances as fate.

how do you know the difference?

CC
Oct 16th, 2004, 01:48 PM
No, life is not predetermined. I thought I had some idea of the direction in which my life would go, but now I see there are many unexpected paths. Lots of randomness.

I believe sometimes we make the mistake of still trying to stick to the initial plan even when we're diverted, and in a sense we end up getting stuck. We should just try to adapt and find another way.

OUT!
Oct 16th, 2004, 02:44 PM
It depends on where you are born in the world and the opportunities afforded to that individual. In some developing countries yes I do think that your life, on the whole, is predetermined.

sarza
Oct 16th, 2004, 03:41 PM
I don't think it's predetermined...but I do believe that everything happens for a reason, and I do believe in fate and destiny


Me too :D

mykarma
Oct 16th, 2004, 11:10 PM
I mean you feel you have a destiny that will play out over the course of your life. Like no matter what you do, it won't matter? As much as you try to change things, there's a preset course of action that your life will take?

I do.I believe that everyone is born with their karma/predetermination and we all have a mission to fulfill in life. That it is up to us each of us whether we fulfill our mission or not. I believe that we can change our destiny based on our thoughts, words, and deeds. If karma/predetermined is not true, why do we continue to find ourselves in the same situations over and over again.

Kart
Oct 17th, 2004, 12:31 AM
I think we're all being led to some extent but I also think we have influence over the final outcome.

Otherwise what's the point of working hard to achieve anything ?

M2k
Oct 17th, 2004, 04:21 AM
I think we come into this world with inborn talents, challenges, and lessons that we are to learn. Of course there's free will :) but at the same time there are certain events in our lives that are bound to happen (whether we choose to learn anything from those events is another story:p )

JLDementieva
Oct 17th, 2004, 05:32 AM
No, because if my life was predetermined, then it would be kind of pointless for me to try and do anything

kabuki
Oct 17th, 2004, 01:31 PM
how do you know the difference?

Because fate doesn't exist. :)

Experimentee
Oct 17th, 2004, 04:47 PM
Of course not. What kind of an attitude is that? If you believe that you'll just do nothing for yourself, thinking that everything's already set out for you. I dont even believe in luck most of the time. We can usually make our own luck thru our actions.

AjdeNate!
Oct 20th, 2004, 06:26 AM
I mean the path can be different but the end result will always be the same.

~ The Leopard ~
Oct 20th, 2004, 09:48 AM
of course i do.
the Moirai have it all under control. Clotho, the spinner; Lachesis, the Dispenser of Lots; and Atropos the inexorable. the decisions of the fates cannot be challenged or altered, even by us Olympians.
Which is why I find myself on your island, even now. :eek: *rolls on back and presents tummy for patting*

GoDominique
Oct 20th, 2004, 10:31 AM
Well, yes, it IS predetermined.

Because (as far as I see it) everything since the beginning of the universe goes by cause and effect, and there's only one way of everything happening. Going by this, the conditions of the very early universe already contained the information that I would be posting this message a few billion years later.

But that doesn't mean you have no control over your life. Your decisions are free. But if you decide "My life is predetermined, so I will do nothing with it and just wait and see what happens", then it was predetermined that you made this decision.

Hard to express what I mean. :o

Hulet
Oct 20th, 2004, 03:01 PM
No, I don't think my life is predetermined. To be predetermined implies that my life has some purpose that it has to fulfill and is given to it by nature, by the universe, by the gods or other higher-being or by whomever. Whether such purpose is ambitious (like having great impact on humanity) or trivial (like being an average person living an average life) doesn't matter, but if I believe in predetermination, I have to believe that my life is put on this world so that it can achieve its preprogrammed objective. There is no evidence for me to believe in such a way, instead there is infact more evidence to the contrary, i.e., to the purposelessness of the universe. Nothing on universe appears to have any systematic purpose, everything is chaotic, going this way and that. My life, or any life for that matter, mirrors this chaos so can't have a purpose or a destiny it has to fulfill. So, in that manner it is not totally predetermined.

But, I also believe that life is predetermined to a certain extent, that is, the possible paths that it can take are limited be it by the person's circumstance or talent or ambition or motives. There is so many things that I can be but I can't be anything I choose to be (in fact I might not have a choice on what futures I might to choose for myself). But, even within these limits, there is enough variety to make me not believe in a single destiny.

"Sluggy"
Oct 20th, 2004, 03:39 PM
No, I dont think that things necessarily happen by accident, but they are not predetermined either.

Martian Willow
Oct 20th, 2004, 04:01 PM
Well, yes, it IS predetermined.

Because (as far as I see it) everything since the beginning of the universe goes by cause and effect, and there's only one way of everything happening. Going by this, the conditions of the very early universe already contained the information that I would be posting this message a few billion years later.

But that doesn't mean you have no control over your life. Your decisions are free. But if you decide "My life is predetermined, so I will do nothing with it and just wait and see what happens", then it was predetermined that you made this decision.

Hard to express what I mean. :o

You're not Ben Best in disguise are you? He tried to reconcile determinism with free will, too. I don't think he succeeded. :)

GoDominique
Oct 20th, 2004, 04:21 PM
You're not Ben Best in disguise are you? He tried to reconcile determinism with free will, too. I don't think he succeeded. :)
Who's that? I only know Dr. Best, the guy with the tooth brushes. :o

No, I do think we have a "free will" (whatever that means). But its parameters are defined by your genes and everything that has happened in your life. This is what your decisions are based on, so they are somewhat "determined".
Well, actually I don't mean "predetermined" but rather "post-determined" = there's only one chain of events (everything that happens), and these events are a result of everything that happened before, and so on.

Stamp Paid
Oct 20th, 2004, 04:42 PM
I'm not sure, honestly.

I just live my life as if I am in control.

Sally Struthers
Oct 20th, 2004, 04:43 PM
I don't think things are predetermined. Maybe you feel like whatever you do things always turn out the same is due to ingrained behavioral patterns that you have developed and are unable to break (and maybe you don't even know you're repeating your patterns) thus making it seem like you always end up in the same place.

GoDominique
Oct 20th, 2004, 04:50 PM
Then we don't have free will. "Post-determined" imply "predetermined". If there's only one chain of events, how can we have "free will"?
Then I guess we have to give our definitions of "free will" first. ;)

Neely OHara
Oct 20th, 2004, 04:50 PM
It seems people in general repeat the same patterns over and over again. There are people who change drastically with time, but they're the exception.

Do I think life is totally "predetermined"? No. But if you want to know the future of someone, just look at her/his past. In that sense, for the majority of people, the future offers very few surprises.

Given our personality, our aptitudes and environment that we're born with, it's very likely all our life will follow a certain direction.

Outstanding post! And, hon, Helen and I are living proof of everything you described.

No, hon, it’s not predetermined. The things that are determined are the things that you do have control of and decide whether to, consciously or unconsciously, let happen or not. Frankly, saying that life is predetermined is admitting you don’t like the direction that YOU ALLOWED your life to take.

GoDominique
Oct 20th, 2004, 05:02 PM
Well you say there's only one chain of event possible. Where's the free will. :scratch:

Let's say there are 2 parallel universe, and they are both exactly the same. At a certain time t, if a person has a choice between action X and Y, is it possible that he chooses X in one of the universe, and Y in the other one? If there's only one chain of event which depend of the past, how could it be possible?
If they are exactly the same, I would say no.
Of course there are always tons of choices. I COULD go and leave now, or I COULD reply to you. But I will take only one of them, and there will be a reason for it.
It's still my choice though.

GoDominique
Oct 20th, 2004, 05:05 PM
Like I said, it's all about to know if there is at least one dynamical system in our universe that has a TRULY random behavior.

That is... On 2 parallel universes which are totally the same, the behavior of something (example: 2 parallel atoms) won't be the same even if all the conditions are the same.
Not sure about that.
But if I my decisions differ only because atoms moved differently, would that be an example of free will?

GoDominique
Oct 20th, 2004, 05:15 PM
Well, as far as I know there is randomness in the quantum (?) universe.

But what does "random" mean? Even there you only have one way of things happening.

Sorry, I know I make little sense, but that's partly because I'm way too tired right now for this kind of discussion. :o

I will get back to this later (if it's still a topic then ;)).

Hulet
Oct 20th, 2004, 05:21 PM
Something can be predetermined AND choatic at the same time. What is the link between the 2?
I take chaos to be the absence of any structure and, in that sense, IMO, predetermination and chaos are mutually exclusive. When you say something (say B) is predetermined by some other thing (say A), then the implication is that there is a structure that links A and B - for example, just like the causal relationship as described by GoDominique, that is, A causes B, which causes C, then D is a result of C, etc. Where there is a structure, I don't think there can be chaos. But, for me, life or the whole universe is structureless and appears to have structure because our tendency/desire to give it a structure.


And just because something is predetermined doesn't mean it has a purpose.
If you agree with the above paragraph, that is, if predetermination implies structure, then every piece/life/event in that structure has a purpose in a sense that it sustains the structure. For example, taking GoDominique cause-effect structure, B as an effect of A has a purpose because it becomes the cause of C. Without B, there is no C. Then, the purpose of B is to produce C. Predetermination implies structure (absence of chaos) which implies purpose.

Hulet
Oct 20th, 2004, 05:44 PM
Well, I tend to use the math definition of chaos because this is what I study. Chaos is a complex dynamical system which depend of the past, particularly the initial conditions. But it doesn't mean that it doesn't have any structure, it's just that the structure is so complex that it's virtually impossible to modelize (mathematically for example) and predict its future behavior, because there are too many variables that influence the behavior of the system.
Hmm, come to think of it again, may be even in regular use chaos might not imply the lack of structure but the lack of our ability to comprehend such a structure. If that is the case, then, when previously I said chaos, I meant to say structureless. :)

Martian Willow
Oct 20th, 2004, 06:10 PM
I don't think there is any randomness in quantum science. It's based on probabilities, which to my mind are predetermined. But I'm no expert on quantum science, surprising as that may seem.

Circe
Oct 20th, 2004, 06:43 PM
Which is why I find myself on your island, even now. :eek: *rolls on back and presents tummy for patting*

welcome to my lair, you sexy beast!! :kiss: youre just in time, there are some stray pigs in GoDom's signature that i need captured!

..pats the affection-seeking leopie's tummy..

alfajeffster
Oct 20th, 2004, 08:04 PM
(Courtesy of Laurie Anderson):

You're walking, and sometimes you don't always realize it, but you're always falling. Over and over again you're falling, and then catching yourself from falling. And this is how you can be walking and falling at the same time.

alfajeffster
Oct 20th, 2004, 08:12 PM
P.S.- try drawing a nice hot bath, filling a little muslin fabric with some fresh vervain, rosemary, and thyme, tie it with a string or ribbon, and drop it in the bath water, swirling it around so that it senses and fills the water with the herbal bouquet. Take off all your clothes, step slowly into the hot water, allowing your skin to acclimate to the temperature of the water, and allowing the herbs to seep into your body, soothing your worries and fears, until you submerge in the warmth of the bath, and come up for air, refreshed and cleansed of pain and the past and the future. Procrastinate this present euphorea until you see your fingers krinkle, then slowly release the plug, feeling all the negativity and fear drain out of you as the water drains. Dry yourself off, and wrap yourself in a huge, over-sized bath towel- or remain naked if you feel comfortable with yourself. Walk to a familiar place in your home, sit down in the middle of that room, light a candle, place it in a safe container, and sit cross-legged on the floor in front of the candle- allowing the warm glow of the candle to center the positive and relaxing energy you have drawn out from the bath. Close your eyes, breathe deep, release, then breathe deep again, and release, and feel yourself in the present- completely in the present, and procrastinate the present in this beautiful place for as long as it takes you to feel free.

darren cahill
Oct 20th, 2004, 09:47 PM
Life is what you make it, sounds kinda simple, but oh well----simple man, simple dreams.

i used to hate when i would be down in the dumps over something and then others would tell me how if i had a more positive attitude or the more negative i thought of something, the worse it would be, i thought all that was hogwash, until i found out about my heart condition and yeah, at first i was angry and negative and pessimistic, and the more i was all those things, the worse i felt and the nastier things became and little by little i accpeted what was going on and the more positive i became, things did start to ease up....i kinda hated that though cause it proved everyone else right!:lol: but yeah, i do think life is what you make it, things are gonna be thrown your way, its up to you how you handle things

Helen Lawson
Oct 20th, 2004, 09:53 PM
It's not predetermined at all. Who would have known that I could have dragged myself, singlehandedly, out of poverty in Brooklyn to being the multi-talented Oscar-winning, millionaire superstar/icon that I am today? It wasn't fate, I did it mysef! And no thanks to Mom and Florence, either! Leeches!

Alfajeffster, don't forget the tuberoses for the bath. I know, they're not Joe's favorite, not by a longshot, but do we really care what Joe likes?

Helen Lawson
Oct 20th, 2004, 10:05 PM
On a more serious note, you really have to look at your life. People with good lives I think like to take the stand it's not predetermined. My life is good because I made it good. People who end up with crap lives like to blame fate because it takes responsibility off themselves. On the other hand, sometimes your life turns out crappy and it's not really your fault. In Tess of the D'Urbervilles, for instance, Tess' crappy life seems to just get crappier no matter what she does. The harder she tries, the more she fails. Then she croaks at the end and all Angel the love of her life can do is think about making it with her sister at the hanging. All the literary people claim Tess' bad life was fate and that this was Hardy's intent. But didn't Tess just make crappy choices? Tess wasn't any genius. Her loser family ended up fine. The first couple of times I read it, I really did think it was fate that determined and wrecked Tess' life. About the third time I read it, to be honest, folks, I just thought Tess was stupid and deserved the bad stuff based on her own actions.

I really wanted to play Tess on the big screen, but I never did. She would have been a Titian-haired Tess with a smoker's voice and of course, Tess breaks into song a couple of times and has some really nice close-ups. She also gives a big death scene monologue, too, I'd totally re-do the book there. Or maybe she and Angel flee to India and have some kids. I'm ok with changing the ending to make a better film.

Wigglytuff
Oct 21st, 2004, 03:37 AM
Because fate doesn't exist. :)

:bs: thats a BS answer. :bs: i'm not saying it does, i am saying that that is a bs answer. but whatever i will entertain you.

how do you KNOW fate doesnt exist???

esquímaux
Oct 21st, 2004, 03:57 AM
Tough question. Sometimes I think so, and sometimes I don't. I guess you're just going to have to wait 'til you die so you can ask the man upstairs :)

SilK
Oct 21st, 2004, 04:01 AM
I do believe that you are set to go a certain direction... that you have no control over that. But you still got the power of choices. Life is all about choices. So, you got control yourself. But in the end, it is just playing connect the dots...

Wigglytuff
Oct 21st, 2004, 04:06 AM
jesus chirst. talk about DICHOTOMIES!!! WOW!!!*

ok, here goes, just because somethings or even the whole of ones life may be predetermined THAT DOES NOT NEGATE OR DENY FREE WILL. THE TWO CAN COEXIST TOGETHER.

one real life example is a video game. a life sim. a good life sim. yes it is pre-programed and there are perimeters and limitations but you do have free will.

take age of empires 2. dont like fighting, fine you have the free will to play for points, gold, castles, wonders, and so one. take animal crossing. dont like writing letters, fine dont. free will. predetermined CAN COEXIST.

still another example, a racing game, in some you can drive yourself right out of the predetermined game world, does the game world cease to exist, because you used free will in a predetermined setting? NO!!! the game is still there.

another example, you are on a train. it has a predetermined route. it is predetermined and can not and will not change for you, you have the free will to get off at your exit or not. you have the free will to exit early, or god forbid, jump off. here as in the other examples the free will and the predetermined can and do co exists

THEREFORE, is simplistic and silly to use the existence of one as evidence fore the non existence of the other. if one wants to prove that predetermination does not exist, the existence of free will, can not be used as evidence for the non existence of predetermination because the two can and do exist everyday.


*those of you who equate caps with yelling: CALM DOWN :p, its called EMPHASIS. why CAPS? because i dont like using bold, this forum scrolls your post to the top after you bold something, and i find it really annoying, so i use caps instead. thats it!! i am not trying to make any one go deaf. :lol:

NOTE: because free will and predetermination CAN COEXIST, that does not automatically mean that predetermination does without a doubt exist, nor does it mean it does not.

esquímaux
Oct 21st, 2004, 04:12 AM
OMG! I'm deaf!!! Oh hold on, I had my Beltone turned all the way up. *making adjustments* Ok, that's better, now what were you saying? :haha:

Wigglytuff
Oct 21st, 2004, 04:12 AM
Tough question. Sometimes I think so, and sometimes I don't. I guess you're just going to have to wait 'til you die so you can ask the man upstairs :)


thats the best answer so far!!!! really it is. in the end you cant know without a doubt until you die, and even then you may not KNOW. but that doesnt mean you cant BELIEVE something, you just have to acknowlegde the difference between knowing and believing!

Wigglytuff
Oct 21st, 2004, 04:19 AM
OMG! I'm deaf!!! Oh hold on, I had my Beltone turned all the way up. *making adjustments* Ok, that's better, now what were you saying? :haha:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :shout: :shout: :shout: :shout: :tape: :tape: :tape: :tape: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

Wigglytuff
Oct 21st, 2004, 06:22 AM
How would dying give an answer on this?

Also we're talking about whether our LIFE is predetermined. What does the fact that a game or a train (or anything else that can be programmed) are being predetermined has anything to do with it? The program does NOT have free will.

In my opinion, both are just incompatible. If there is free will, there CAN'T be predetermination. Free will implies that you can make a choice... Predetermination of LIFE (not programmed systems around us) implies you can't really make a choice, because... life is predetermined.

1- read E's post again. he said when you die, you can ask god yourself. thats if you believe in god, so that ask of death itself wont give you the answer but the post death chance to speak with god will. thats of course if you believe something happens to you when you die, other than being eating by worms :p

2- i used a video game and a train for a reason. both have perimeters that free will can not over take, (like gravity and the movement of a train, or the code put in by the programmers), in the same way that life has those things, some people call them "laws of physics" but in all three cases, while such laws can not be broken then can be bent (a train will travel for a bit if derailed, you can leave the game world for a bit before returning to it, you can in real life suspend something in mid air without the use of string)

furthermore these examples do not take place in some netherworld were nothing lives, these examples of predetermination and free will co-habituating are IN LIFE ITSELF. (unless of course you are saying that one is not alive while on a train or playing a game?? or that the examples are not valid because in the real world you have complete control over everything, thus you can walk on water for example, and limitations like those the programmers placed and those the train conductor places are do not exist in "Life")

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i believe that you are creating 2 dichotomies that are not real. 1-you are saying if LIFE (as i understand), is predetermined, than EVERYTHING IN LIFE is predetermined, and there is NO free will.
2-if life is predetermined than there is ONLY ONE PATH and you have NO FREE WILL to choose WHICH path (because there is only one).

i respond thus:

1-but what if some things, are predetermined, and are others are not? what if your soul mate is predetermined but it is up to you to decide whether you marry them?

2-what if there is more than one predetermined path? what if for every life there are 600,000 predetermined paths that life can take? (expect GWB he has but one path, to find the one ring and undo man kind!! :tape: )

for example: what if you have 2,437* predetermined soul mates. (think video games with multiple endings (or games with *gasp* no ending at all)) and of those 2,437 PREDETERMINED soul mates you have the FREE WILL to choose to be with one, two, three :p :tape: or more :lick: :tape: or none :sad: of them?

*with 6 billion humans on this earth that is definitely possible.

i have placed a TON of different possibilities, where in the predetermined and the free will can coexist.



EDIT: you said the program does not have free will, dont be silly, you know damn well i was talking about the PLAYER having free will, saying the program has no free will is like saying the sky has no free will. it is above and beyond the point.

Wigglytuff
Oct 21st, 2004, 08:55 PM
You equal "predetermined" and "possibility"... Those are 2 different concepts. There are tons of different possibilities for humans (just like there are tons of possibilities when you play a game), yes, and? Determined mean it's something establish in advance, it's not synonym of "possibilities" which is the set of things that can happen. Only one possibility can be established in advance, even if many possibilities are there for humans.

Whether free will exist or not is up to each people opinion. However if there is free will, then our life is not predetermined. Sure, there are programmed system around us that ARE pretermined, and...? It still makes our life not predetermined - again on the assumption we have free will.

Really your post is about confusing the concept of "predetermined" with the concept of "possibility".

dictionary .com is your friend

pre·de·ter·mine Audio pronunciation of "predetermined" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prd-tûrmn)
v. pre·de·ter·mined, pre·de·ter·min·ing, pre·de·ter·mines
v. tr.

1. To determine, decide, or establish in advance: “These factors predetermine to a large extent the outcome” (Jessica Mitford).
2. To influence or sway toward an action or opinion; predispose.

no where does it state there can be only one out come. only that what ever out come(s) has is(are) already decided or known.

Martian Willow
Oct 21st, 2004, 09:14 PM
If I understand him correctly, Jigglypuff is saying we could have free will, but within specific predetermined parameters. In other words, instead of wandering around in any direction we like, we are on paths, and our decisions are like junctions leading off on other paths, but the path we are on and the final destination of the paths available to us are predetermined. The problem of that is there are so many decisions and paths to take, leading in so many different directions, that the end result is effectively to same as free will anyway. Unless I read him wrong. :)