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View Full Version : Re-instate the draft


Volcana
Oct 14th, 2004, 01:27 AM
It occurs to me that this might actually be a good thing. The one thing is, I'd do away with student deferments, and I'd give CURRENT active duty, National Guard and Reserve personnel first opportunity at ALL stateside slots. Everybody gets drafted. Everybody goes to war.

Why should the defense of the country be let to those who's jobs were out-sourced, or are now being done by illegal aliens?

We should be like ancient Sparta. Everybody fights. No slackers.

GBFH
Oct 14th, 2004, 01:40 AM
hmm...weren't the spartans defeated by the athenians????

GBFH
Oct 14th, 2004, 01:40 AM
or was that the wrong war?

persians...something...bah. i'm an accountant, not a historian.

backhanddtl4
Oct 14th, 2004, 01:46 AM
It occurs to me that this might actually be a good thing. The one thing is, I'd do away with student deferments, and I'd give CURRENT active duty, National Guard and Reserve personnel first opportunity at ALL stateside slots. Everybody gets drafted. Everybody goes to war.

Why should the defense of the country be let to those who's jobs were out-sourced, or are now being done by illegal aliens?

We should be like ancient Sparta. Everybody fights. No slackers.

You're stupid

~{X}~
Oct 14th, 2004, 01:52 AM
lmao such a simple answer, you're stupid lmfao I love it.

Volcana
Oct 14th, 2004, 04:39 AM
or was that the wrong war?Yes that's the wrong war, and yes it was the Persians under Xerxes. No one in history has won every war.
You're stupidI suppose that answer beats actually attempting to think, in your case.

GBFH
Oct 14th, 2004, 04:41 AM
Yes that's the wrong war, and yes it was the Persians under Xerxes. No one in history has won every war.
obviously :lol:

persians. i'll remember that from now on.

Bacardi
Oct 14th, 2004, 04:46 AM
If you think about it, a few other countrys have manditory military service. Russia has it, and I believe a few other countrys do as well. It wouldn't be the worst thing, and I'll go as far as to say it shouldn't be based on sex either. If males can go, females should as well.

Maybe if this happened there wouldn't be as many senseless wars, and people would really think twice with children in the age group that would be going into war. Thus, the need for people like Bush would be non-existant.

Bacardi
Oct 14th, 2004, 04:48 AM
If you want to go into history, what I admire about the great Greeks/Romans is they rode into battle and fought along side their warriors. Today, we have a president that hides in a bunker in the middle of no where anytime there's a real threat, and probably wouldn't know how to fire a gun if he watched a 5 hour video on it. In the days of Alexander the Great, Marc Anthony, and Caesar they fought, right along side their troops... thus they were better leaders. And believe me, the styles of fighting back then were a hell of a lot scarier than today. So anyone intelligent enough to survive battles in those days, deserved it.

However, the USA must love cowards. Just look at George W Bush. He was in the Air National Guard, half time time AWOL from his duty there. He done everything to avoid active deployment, and pulled every string in the book. Yet he's allowed each day to make decisions that send thousands of National Guard members to a place he himself wouldn't go if he were say in his 20s. Talk about picking a real winner, it's more like a real coward. It takes a big man to fight his battles, it takes a little one to have others fight his wars.

GBFH
Oct 14th, 2004, 04:52 AM
uh, danielle?

in those times, there was no mass communication...if your generals weren't in battle with you, they'd have no idea what was going on for weeks...if not ever. while it's brave to be so close to the fight, there was a very high degree of necessity involved, as well. and most people back then didn't live long past 30, anyway. i'd imagine the mindset was farrrrrrrr different than today.

Bacardi
Oct 14th, 2004, 04:55 AM
True, but several great Roman/Greek leaders lived long lives in the Senate and such after their time in wars.

I dunno, I just hate that our current President is sending our boys off to die when he himself was too chicken shit to go. Granted Vietnam was a POINTLESS war, Iraq is a pointless war as well. I just think, if a man who is running for president grew up in war time, and served it should give him the leg up in knowing how to lead. I'm not saying every Vet should be considered for this, because I confess I know a few that's come back from battle and are really fuct in the head.

GBFH
Oct 14th, 2004, 05:01 AM
yeah...but i'm thinking more about the masses. they sure didn't live long!

i'll have to take your word for it about the war ;)

Bacardi
Oct 14th, 2004, 05:06 AM
:lol: BL's cousin is a crack pot since he came back, he freaks out over everything. It's so scary and weird. Then I once had a teach in Middle School that had served in Vietnam and he was a real nutcase. If you dropped a book off your desk he'd have a flash back and hide under his desk. I remember his entire car was once decorated in "Ollie North for President" stickers. :lol:

GBFH
Oct 14th, 2004, 05:09 AM
:eek:

had a teacher in middle school who went to vietnam, as well. he was okay...classmates were awful to him, though...he left after a year.

too bad they've done away with caning. that would straighten the little shits out.

bw2082
Oct 14th, 2004, 05:13 AM
:eek:

had a teacher in middle school who went to vietnam, as well. he was okay...classmates were awful to him, though...he left after a year.

too bad they've done away with caning. that would straighten the little shits out.

my 7th grade homeroom teacher used to go out with my 5th grade history teacher... He was missing fingers and told everyone he lost them in vietnam. ONe day, the history teacher came into the room after they broke up and started yelling things at him and told everyone he really just lost his fingers when he got them caught in some kind of farm machinery :o

GBFH
Oct 14th, 2004, 05:28 AM
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

that's fucked, brandon!

decemberlove
Oct 14th, 2004, 05:42 AM
It occurs to me that this might actually be a good thing. The one thing is, I'd do away with student deferments, and I'd give CURRENT active duty, National Guard and Reserve personnel first opportunity at ALL stateside slots. Everybody gets drafted. Everybody goes to war.

Why should the defense of the country be let to those who's jobs were out-sourced, or are now being done by illegal aliens?
um, maybe cos they volunteered?

most of the people fighting are young. i doubt their jobs were outsourced or taken by illegal aliens. all of the people i know that joined the military [pre & post 911], joined cos they didn't want to go to college and saw the military as the best opportunity for them in life.

anyway, you never explained as to why re-instating the draft might actually be a good thing.

Wigglytuff
Oct 14th, 2004, 05:46 AM
You're stupid

looks like we found a slacker!!

Wigglytuff
Oct 14th, 2004, 05:57 AM
It occurs to me that this might actually be a good thing. The one thing is, I'd do away with student deferments, and I'd give CURRENT active duty, National Guard and Reserve personnel first opportunity at ALL stateside slots. Everybody gets drafted. Everybody goes to war.

Why should the defense of the country be let to those who's jobs were out-sourced, or are now being done by illegal aliens?

We should be like ancient Sparta. Everybody fights. No slackers.

This poses a very interesting question. people support the war but not an "Everybody gets drafted. Everybody goes to war." policy.

its not that hard to see why no one likes this idea. BECAUSE EVERYONE GETS DRAFT!!! it DEMANDS the folks put thier money where their mouth is.

i have since i was a little girl believed that people declaring war, should fight in it. as an adult, i understand that the very reason i think its such a grand idea is the reason people oppose it. basic, it would mean that leaders would be forced not go to war for stupid shit, or baseless shit. i dont think thats your point, but i that it would be equally unpopular so why not share it eh?

more action less talk is what i say!

Jarrett
Oct 14th, 2004, 07:17 AM
slacker #2 here. thanks! I don't support the war so why the hell would I want to fight in it.
<======= :cool:

Circe
Oct 14th, 2004, 08:35 AM
hmm...weren't the spartans defeated by the athenians????
no, the spartans defeated the athenians.

Volcana
Oct 14th, 2004, 04:02 PM
um, maybe cos they volunteered?

most of the people fighting are young. i doubt their jobs were outsourced or taken by illegal aliens.You're not thinking it through. Or maybe, it's a case of where you live. Take the case of Illegal aliens.

Most jobs illegal aliens do are entry level jobs, and relatively unskilled jobs. Landscapers, roofers, seamstresses, contract laborers, picking crops. All jobs that, if we actually prosecuted employers who hire illegal aliens, would be available for Americans to do.

Because, despite the law, we DON'T prosecute employers for hiring illegal aliens, Americans are shut out of a lot of entry level jobs. Where's an American kid learn landscaping. Used to be, he could start out as an apprentice with a small landscaping company. Contractors using illegal aliens have driven virtually every small landscaping company who doesn't out of the market in the Northeast USA.

An American who works as a nanny gets about $500/wk, plus room and board, half-Saturday and all-day SUnday off inthe NEw York area. An illegal alien gets $250/wk, plus room and board and hald-day Sunday off. (If you recall, this information became widespread knowledge because of Bill Clinton's first two nominees for Attourny General.)

So Americans get shut out of that market.

And where outsourcing is concerned, more and more IT jobs are going overseas, leaving fewer and fewer jobs for people leaving college looking for them. Some of those people also end up inthe military, because the military really needs them, and offers good packages.

all of the people i know that joined the military [pre & post 911], joined cos they didn't want to go to college and saw the military as the best opportunity for them in life.The people I know who joined the military, with two exceptions, joined because they couldn't AFFORD to go to college, and with fewer and fewer career opportunites available in the USA, for people without collegiate degrees, the military was the only available option to get to college. That's how my nephew got his degree. Taking classes while in the Air Force.

anyway, you never explained as to why re-instating the draft might actually be a good thing.Because if EVERYONE is at risk, they won't support leaders who go to war unnecessarily. Leadership that takes the country to war would have to explain WHY that war was necessary, or be voted out of office.

Far too many people support wars now because with an all-volunteer army, they know THEIR lives won't be at risk. Attitudes change fast when it's your own ass on the line.

Hagar
Oct 14th, 2004, 04:43 PM
I once met an older American couple in Belgium and their son in law was in Iraq. The poor guy joined the army to pay for his studies, never thinking he would ever have to go to war. :(

Wigglytuff
Oct 14th, 2004, 05:32 PM
I once met an older American couple in Belgium and their son in law was in Iraq. The poor guy joined the army to pay for his studies, never thinking he would ever have to go to war. :(

thats how the american military system works.

i know a number of people all joined for the same reason. in fact they recuirt almost excusively in poor areas and around public colleges and low prefoming high schools. at the public college i attend now i see them recruiting for "go army" almost once a week, in my 4.5 years of undergrad, in somewaht well known and VERY nice and VERY expensive, private college, i never saw or heard from them. they neither came to recuirt nor expressed any interest in doing so.

*JR*
Oct 14th, 2004, 05:37 PM
Volcana's post here makes excellent points:

1) "Unskilled/semiskilled" labor becomes rarer and worse paid.

2) The only way many "working class" kids can escape is via the military paying for college.

3) 1 + 2 above = a defacto draft (for them).

(Glad 2C that "Jiffypoo" basically agrees). :p

Paneru
Oct 14th, 2004, 05:42 PM
If you want to go into history, what I admire about the great Greeks/Romans is they rode into battle and fought along side their warriors. Today, we have a president that hides in a bunker in the middle of no where anytime there's a real threat, and probably wouldn't know how to fire a gun if he watched a 5 hour video on it. In the days of Alexander the Great, Marc Anthony, and Caesar they fought, right along side their troops... thus they were better leaders. And believe me, the styles of fighting back then were a hell of a lot scarier than today. So anyone intelligent enough to survive battles in those days, deserved it.

However, the USA must love cowards. Just look at George W Bush. He was in the Air National Guard, half time time AWOL from his duty there. He done everything to avoid active deployment, and pulled every string in the book. Yet he's allowed each day to make decisions that send thousands of National Guard members to a place he himself wouldn't go if he were say in his 20s. Talk about picking a real winner, it's more like a real coward. It takes a big man to fight his battles, it takes a little one to have others fight his wars.
Excellent post!

Circe
Oct 14th, 2004, 07:47 PM
I once met an older American couple in Belgium and their son in law was in Iraq. The poor guy joined the army to pay for his studies, never thinking he would ever have to go to war. :(
sounds like the worst possible reason to join up though doesnt it?
"i joined the army thinking i'd never have to fight"
i mean, really! doesnt make for the most efficient soldier does it?

decemberlove
Oct 15th, 2004, 12:09 AM
You're not thinking it through. Or maybe, it's a case of where you live. Take the case of Illegal aliens.

Most jobs illegal aliens do are entry level jobs, and relatively unskilled jobs. Landscapers, roofers, seamstresses, contract laborers, picking crops. All jobs that, if we actually prosecuted employers who hire illegal aliens, would be available for Americans to do.

Because, despite the law, we DON'T prosecute employers for hiring illegal aliens, Americans are shut out of a lot of entry level jobs. Where's an American kid learn landscaping. Used to be, he could start out as an apprentice with a small landscaping company. Contractors using illegal aliens have driven virtually every small landscaping company who doesn't out of the market in the Northeast USA.just cos i don't agree with you, doesn't mean i'm not thinking it through. i live in ocean county, nj. on the shore... the edge of the woods... in a town that is 61% elderly people with elderly villages all over the place which means lots of landscaping companies. big ones and independent, small businesses... and i have YET to see ONE illegal alien working in landscaping. all the ones here work in restaurants where they are paid the same as american citizens. and why are they hired over american citizens? cos they don't take this country for granted... they actually work hard and appreciate what they have.

so your exaggeration about how contractors have driven out virtually every small landscaping company who doesn't hire illegal aliens in the NE is just that... an exaggeration to back up your point.

An American who works as a nanny gets about $500/wk, plus room and board, half-Saturday and all-day SUnday off inthe NEw York area. An illegal alien gets $250/wk, plus room and board and hald-day Sunday off. (If you recall, this information became widespread knowledge because of Bill Clinton's first two nominees for Attourny General.)

So Americans get shut out of that market. yes, im aware that illegal aliens take some american jobs. but last time i checked military demographics, the military was only 15% female [i believe]. and being a nanny isn't exactly a job many men are after. so that isn't really relevant to your original post.

And where outsourcing is concerned, more and more IT jobs are going overseas, leaving fewer and fewer jobs for people leaving college looking for them. Some of those people also end up inthe military, because the military really needs them, and offers good packages.

The people I know who joined the military, with two exceptions, joined because they couldn't AFFORD to go to college, and with fewer and fewer career opportunites available in the USA, for people without collegiate degrees, the military was the only available option to get to college. That's how my nephew got his degree. Taking classes while in the Air Force.i understand what you are saying [you should've used better examples], but you make it seem as if the military is the ONLY option. it isn't. there's financial aid, scholarships, student loans. i know a lot of lower class kids that are enrolled full time at community college and work full time to pay for tuition. most community colleges offer payment plans so you don't have to take out an expensive loan.

the miltary [particularly the AF and navy] is great for people with skills cos they WILL recognize those skills and place you in a nice, comfy job. it's when you don't have skills that you are fucked and sent out to the dangerous parts. most of the people i know in the AF and the navy were sent on nice lil vacations... crete, japan, hawaii...

i think people give up too quickly and see the military as an easy out. yes, a lot of people signed up thinking they weren't going to war. i don't feel bad for them AT ALL thou. if you know anything about the history of this country, you should be aware that war is always a possibility. they weren't tricked into anything.

Because if EVERYONE is at risk, they won't support leaders who go to war unnecessarily. Leadership that takes the country to war would have to explain WHY that war was necessary, or be voted out of office.

Far too many people support wars now because with an all-volunteer army, they know THEIR lives won't be at risk. Attitudes change fast when it's your own ass on the line.but everyone won't be at risk. cos the rich people that you're really after will ALWAYS find a way of getting their children excluded from the draft. there are ALWAYS loopholes. the wealthy will always be on top and be able to do whatever the fuck they want.

a draft would only punish the middle class.

keep in mind that at the start of the war, half the country was behind it. and i really believe that they actually believed that iraq had to do with terrorism.... the wounds are still healing and the bush admin took advantage of that. i think now a good portion of people realize the truth, but there's not much we can do about it now.

also, the last thing we need in iraq right now is a bunch of kids that don't want to be there. we don't want what happened in vietnam to happen out there. i can only imagine the type of torture prison pictures we would see... and the drug use over there... the suicide rate... i think it would just cause more trouble.

it's just a terrible idea.

Martian Willow
Oct 15th, 2004, 12:21 AM
This poses a very interesting question. people support the war but not an "Everybody gets drafted. Everybody goes to war." policy.

its not that hard to see why no one likes this idea. BECAUSE EVERYONE GETS DRAFT!!! it DEMANDS the folks put thier money where their mouth is.

i have since i was a little girl believed that people declaring war, should fight in it. as an adult, i understand that the very reason i think its such a grand idea is the reason people oppose it. basic, it would mean that leaders would be forced not go to war for stupid shit, or baseless shit. i dont think thats your point, but i that it would be equally unpopular so why not share it eh?

more action less talk is what i say!

This is kind of confused logic. At least, it confused me. Conscription would send people to war whether they agree to it or not. If you volunteer, you've basically accepted that you might hve to go to war.

Personally I think it's fair for the state to expect certain things of me, such as paying taxes and abiding by just laws, but I draw the line at being shot at.

PointBlank
Oct 15th, 2004, 12:37 AM
We have to join the army..not for ever though..

PointBlank
Oct 15th, 2004, 12:39 AM
If you think about it, a few other countrys have manditory military service. Russia has it
Whens Maria going into the service? .. Sadly Shahar is not gonna have a full career .. Her tennis career is ruined because she has to join the army .. Things you do for your country

Volcana
Oct 15th, 2004, 04:09 AM
but everyone won't be at risk. cos the rich people that you're really after will ALWAYS find a way of getting their children excluded from the draft. there are ALWAYS loopholes. the wealthy will always be on top and be able to do whatever the fuck they want.

a draft would only punish the middle class.a) I don't believe that things don't change. People used to say that slavery would always exist in the USA. Women used to not be able to get bank loans without a male co-signer. b) There aren't that many rich people. If the middle class are being 'punished', they can alleviate that by voting for somebody who'll get them OUT of the war.

keep in mind that at the start of the war, half the country was behind it. and i really believe that they actually believed that iraq had to do with terrorism.... the wounds are still healing and the bush admin took advantage of that. i think now a good portion of people realize the truth, but there's not much we can do about it now.If the children of MOST Americans were at risk, they'd find PLENTY to do about it, just as they found something to do about it with Vietnam.

If people support the occupying another country, they should be willing to see THEIR own children die for it, not just their janitor's son or daughter.

But even now, we could turn the whole thing over to the UN. All we'd have to do is stop insisting on controlling Iraq's oil, and open up the books on where the money from Iraq's oil is going.

As for your earlier points about illegal aliens, I live in Passaic County, NJ. I guess all the illegal aliens work up here. But it's not that far from Ocean. Drive along Route 59 along the New York/New Jersey border between Spring Valley and Monsey any weekday morning. Or talk to the guys at any medium-scale construction site in New York City.

And as for nannies, the point is that jobs are being removed from the pool of what's available. Even if only 15% of the military is female, that's still tens of thousands of people. And some of them could have had those jobs as nannies, as opposed to the military.

Kiwi_Boy
Oct 15th, 2004, 04:15 AM
We should be like ancient Sparta. Everybody fights. No slackers.
Its up to the individual if he who supports such an idea and says they will willing take part in the draft, I want to know why they are not already in the military or on reservist lists. Dont wait, just do it. But if a draft bill went ahead...then none of you would have much of a choice..wahoo freedom.