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Berlin_Calling
Oct 9th, 2004, 02:39 AM
In response to the Kerry one ;). GOOOO GEORGE!!!!!!!!!!:bounce:

jbone_0307
Oct 9th, 2004, 02:42 AM
eeek, too bad he can't cant construct a sentence without help from Condoleeza. GO GEORGE(for getting out of office)!!!!!! Too bad he lost the debate again today. Maybe he will do better when he has a script rolling right in front of him. :lol: :haha:

catkey94
Oct 9th, 2004, 02:43 AM
Yes, GOOOOO GEORGE!!!!!! Go back to Texas! :D

Berlin_Calling
Oct 9th, 2004, 02:45 AM
At least he doesn't contradict himself :confused: Kerry's opinions are so half-assed :lol: What will the haters do when Bush DOES gets elected into office again? :haha:

AjdeNate!
Oct 9th, 2004, 02:48 AM
2 snaps for Georgie saying the word "haters" though :haha:

Wigglytuff
Oct 9th, 2004, 02:52 AM
how can you people cheer for someone who said the dred scott case of 1857 legalized slavery??? :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :sad: :sad: :sad: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

jbone_0307
Oct 9th, 2004, 03:00 AM
OMG Athenaeum he said that!!! I thought I heard him say that but thought(I say THOUGHT) that he was smarter than to use ghetto terms.

BK4ever
Oct 9th, 2004, 03:20 AM
I use to feel sorry for the people who voted for Bush, until I realized that they were actually voting for the republican machine and not necessarily for Bush..because I refuse to believe that anyone with a brain would seriously think that Bush is president material when he probably couldnt hang with the nations best sixth graders.

tenn_ace
Oct 9th, 2004, 03:43 AM
all I can say is http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/wuerg/vomit-smiley-015.gif

I Love Sharapova
Oct 9th, 2004, 05:01 AM
Bush did okay tonight. I wouldn't worry too much about what too many people who post here have to say.Most either live in a foreign country or are not old enough to vote. :lol: :lol: :rolleyes: :p GO BUSH!!!

I Love Sharapova
Oct 9th, 2004, 05:04 AM
Yes, GOOOOO GEORGE!!!!!! Go back to Texas! :D
He's not even originally from Texas. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Shane54
Oct 10th, 2004, 05:40 AM
Hey Sharapova! Love Maria too! Seems as though Bush is the Capriati of these boards. I am gay. And I am voting for Bush. I am a moderate and I do not agree with everything he does. But he is alot better than John "I am a don't stand for anything Pussy" . They say Bush is hate. But just hang around some nasty nelly queens for a day, and Bush is a nice guy. GO W!

CC
Oct 10th, 2004, 05:43 AM
Nasty nelly queens aren't running for re-election as president.

Shane54
Oct 10th, 2004, 05:48 AM
I was referring to how they have the nerve to criticize others of hatred.
You don't think W is nelly queen?;)

CC
Oct 10th, 2004, 06:00 AM
He does seem to think everyone not sharing his ideology is evil ... he may qualify on the hypocrisy of it all.

Shane54
Oct 10th, 2004, 06:52 AM
Yes you have point CC. But liberals aren't exactly "loving" with people who don't agree with their policies. We are all the same way. People on the boards will berade others for their different beliefs including myself sometimes.

bis2806
Oct 10th, 2004, 07:18 AM
Hey Sharapova! Love Maria too! Seems as though Bush is the Capriati of these boards. I am gay. And I am voting for Bush. I am a moderate and I do not agree with everything he does. But he is alot better than John "I am a don't stand for anything Pussy" . They say Bush is hate. But just hang around some nasty nelly queens for a day, and Bush is a nice guy. GO W!

Dude, are you out of your mind? Bush hates us gays... :rolleyes:

njguido11
Oct 10th, 2004, 09:03 AM
Go bush. Was at my cousins engagement party tonight and heard people talkin about the fuckin so called draft. 2 me the dems are going after uneducated people to win this election. People they can just drop some line like theres gonna be a draft. So ridiculous

tenn_ace
Oct 10th, 2004, 12:39 PM
Go bush. Was at my cousins engagement party tonight and heard people talkin about the fuckin so called draft. 2 me the dems are going after uneducated people to win this election. People they can just drop some line like theres gonna be a draft. So ridiculous
and reps simply steal elections like last time in Fla... that's what I call ridiculous :wavey:

kabuki
Oct 10th, 2004, 01:14 PM
Hey Sharapova! Love Maria too! Seems as though Bush is the Capriati of these boards. I am gay. And I am voting for Bush. I am a moderate and I do not agree with everything he does. But he is alot better than John "I am a don't stand for anything Pussy" . They say Bush is hate. But just hang around some nasty nelly queens for a day, and Bush is a nice guy. GO W!

Well, I hope you are ready for the consequences of your vote. Bush will operate with much LESS restraint in his second term and will apoint judges to the Supreme Court that will restrict your civil rights for the rest of your life. No unions, no marriage, no adoption, no right of survivorship, no partners benefits, no hospital visitation.

Sam L
Oct 10th, 2004, 01:20 PM
Dude, are you out of your mind? Bush hates us gays... :rolleyes:
That Shane54 is a walking condiction, everyone here knows that, except himself probably. Who knows, he's probably in denial about that fact that he's gay. :lol:

If it is possible, Bush will even go as far as to ban homosexuality.

*JR*
Oct 10th, 2004, 02:24 PM
Go bush. Was at my cousins engagement party tonight and heard people talkin about the fuckin so called draft. 2 me the dems are going after uneducated people to win this election. People they can just drop some line like theres gonna be a draft. So ridiculousAs Kerry says, we basically have a draft, when so many troops have their service time involuntarily extended, plus huge #'s of Guard and Reserve being deployed in Iraq without a true national emergency.

Dawn Marie
Oct 10th, 2004, 02:43 PM
Shane54 are you for real here???

Man you need to read up on some of Dubya policies when it comes to gay rights??

Anyone who is gay or black and votes for Bush is a true DUMB FUCK!! You must be ignorant.

*JR*
Oct 10th, 2004, 03:01 PM
What if someone prefers Bush for his economical stances, for example, and it outweighs anything else including gay right?Of course gays differ on many issues. But basic human rights should always come first. Otherwise one can be seen as a Clarence Thomas type, pulling the ladder up after he used it.

CC
Oct 10th, 2004, 03:32 PM
Yes you have point CC. But liberals aren't exactly "loving" with people who don't agree with their policies. We are all the same way. People on the boards will berade others for their different beliefs including myself sometimes.And strangely enough people blast Kerry for being on both sides of an issue or flip flopping! I don't understand why people allow politics to determine that you must be extreme in your views or you are not who you say you are. Democrats must believe one set of ideas are the ultimate TRUTH and Republicans must believe one set of ideas are the ultimate TRUTH. No middle ground; No open mind - or else you are an inconsistent flip flopper. Things are never a simple yes or no as Bush said friday night. As Kerry said, a young girl who is molested and impregnated by her father should not have to notify her father and ask his permission for an abortion. THERE IS A CONFLICT OF INTEREST. Bush is too simple minded to see this. Kerry wants to delve deeper into the issues and take logical, reasonable actions that take into account the complex decisions people have to make in their lives. Unfortunately, I don't know if he can succeed with the mindset people have. They have been under this divisive system for so long, they don't realize that the politicians don't want the lines to get blurred because then they would have to work much much harder to win the vote.

Bacardi
Oct 10th, 2004, 03:37 PM
Nothing like a good racist cheater in office, is there? I'm sure the KKK's vote alone in FL will be enough to push him to the presidency again. I just wonder how those radical Neo Nazi's are going to vote, certainly it must be for the new Adolf Hitler (George W Bush) right?

What really happened in Florida?



Five months before the election, Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris ordered the removal of 57,700 names from Florida’s voter rolls on grounds that they were felons. Voter rolls contain the names of all eligible, registered voters. If you’re not on the list, you don’t get to vote.



If you commit a felony in Florida, you lose your right to vote there, and you‘re “scrubbed” from the rolls. You become a non-citizen, like in the old Soviet Union. This is not the case in most other states; it’s an uncivilized vestige of the Deep South.



My office carefully went through the scrub list and discovered that at minimum, 90.2 percent of the people were completely innocent of any crime – except for being African American. We didn’t have to guess about that, because next to each voter’s name was their race.



When I questioned Harris’ office about the high percentage of African Americans on the scrub list, they responded, “Well, you know how many black people commit crimes.”



But these people weren’t felons, so why were they scrubbed?



The Florida Republicans wanted to block African Americans, who largely vote as Democrats, from voting. In 1999 they fired the company they were paying $5,700 to compile their felony “scrub” lists and replaced them with Database Technologies [DBT], who they paid $2.3 million to do the same job. [DBT is the Florida division of Choicepoint, a massive database company that does extensive work for the FBI.]



There are a lot of Joe Smiths in the Florida phonebook. DBT was hired to verify which Joe Smith was a felon and which was not. They were supposed to use their extensive databases to check credit cards, bank information, addresses and phone numbers, in addition to names, ages, and social security numbers. But they didn’t. They didn’t use one of their 1,200 databases to verify personal information, nor did they make a single phone call to verify the identity of scrubbed names.



So where did DBT get their data?



From the Internet. They went to 11 other states’ Internet sites and took names off dirt-cheap. They scrubbed Florida voters whose names were similar to out-of-state felons. An Illinois felon named John Michaels could knock off Florida voter John, Johnny, Jonathan or Jon R. Michaels, or even J.R. Michaelson. DBT matched for race and gender, but names only had to be similar to a certain degree. Names could be reversed, and suffixes (Jr., Sr.) were ignored, but aliases were included. So the felon John “Buddy” Michaels could knock non-felon Michael Johns or Bud Johnson Jr. off the voter rolls. This happened again and again.


Although DBT didn’t get names, birthdays or social security numbers right, they were very careful to match for race. A black felon named Mr. Green would only knock off a black Mr. Green, but not a single white Mr. Green. That’s how DBT earned its $2.3 million.


Why didn’t DBT use their own databases?



They didn’t, because the state told them not to. Choicepoint vice-president James Lee was grilled by a Congressional committee, headed by Cynthia McKinney, and he admitted everything, but said DBT was following state directives. Florida state officials told DBT to knock off voters by incorrectly matching them with felons.



Congresswoman McKinney led this commission to her own peril. Choicepoint is in her Atlanta district. She was destroyed in the last election by fabricated quotes and a vicious propaganda campaign.



Is this the only way votes were stolen?



No. There were 8,000 Floridians who had committed misdemeanors, but were counted as felons. Their votes were scrubbed. Katherine Harris’ office illegally scrubbed people who’d served time in other states, then moved to Florida, and Jeb Bush’s office illegally barred these people from registering to vote at all.



The biggest wholesale theft occurred inside the voting booths in black rural counties. In Gadsden County, one of the blackest in the state, thousands of votes were simply thrown away. Gadsden used paper ballots which are read by an optical reader. Ballots with a single extra mark were considered “spoiled“ and not counted. The buttons used to fill out the ballots were set up – with approval from Bush and Harris – to make votes appear unclear to the machine. One in eight ballots in Gadsden was voided by the state.


The same ballots were used in Tallahassee County, which is mostly white. There only one in 100 votes was “spoiled.” What made the difference? In Tallahassee, ballots were read on the premises, and if they were marked incorrectly, voters were sent to revote until they got it right. In the black counties, the votes were trucked off immediately. There were no machines on site. Voters weren’t told that their votes were spoiled, and they certainly weren’t permitted to re-vote.



When Ted Koppel investigated voter theft in Florida, he concluded that blacks lost votes because they weren’t well educated, and made mistakes that whites hadn‘t. He didn’t even bother to ask how the machines were set up. This is the kind of reporting we get in America. In Britain, this story ran 3 weeks after the election, when Gore was still in race. It was in the papers and on TV. In the US, it was seven months before the Washington Post ran it, and then it was only a partial version. After the election, Gadsden County replaced its voting commissioner. In 2002 they only lost one in 500 votes. So you can say blacks in Gadsden got smarter in one way – they elected a black elections chief.



What happened to Choicepoint?



Bush is handing them the big contracts in the War on Terror; immigration reviews, DNA cataloging, airport profiling, and their voting systems are being rolled out across the country.



It wasn’t reported in mainstream press, but the NAACP sued Harris and the gang for the black purge, and won. The state threw up its hands immediately and said, ‘You got us! We’ll put these people back as soon as we can.’ We’re still waiting.

Wigglytuff
Oct 10th, 2004, 03:42 PM
Why, because you've just decided so?

So you would vote for a totally mediocre party that put all his focus on human rights only?

Life is more complex than that... It isn't just about some particular rights (that concern a minory of people).

minory?


hmmm like the top 2% wealthiest americans who get tax cuts at the expense of art programs in school or head start.
or like the one person who desided that the UN didnt matter it was ok to invaded and independent nation because of WMDs that this one person knew were not there.
or how one politcal party, in one country, can go agaisnt the voice of the entire fucking world
or the "minory" of americans (5%) who own 90% of the resources?

is that the minory you were talking about? were you talking about the mediocre party that says its ok for poor and homeless children to not have heatlh issurance or free lunch in the summer, so that this "minory" that makes over $200,000 can have shiny new tax cuts?

*JR*
Oct 10th, 2004, 04:33 PM
Considering you make about 1 or 2 spelling mistakes for every sentence you type, I wouldn't point out other people mistakes.

I'm sure the majory of people will agree with me.I agree that typo's shouldn't be mocked (esp. as so many members learned English as one of 2, 3, or more languages). But re. the main point, how about this reason:

If not for the basic rights of a group not to face discrimination, many of its members would suffer in other areas (like the economy) for example.

njguido11
Oct 10th, 2004, 04:51 PM
That Shane54 is a walking condiction, everyone here knows that, except himself probably. Who knows, he's probably in denial about that fact that he's gay. :lol:

If it is possible, Bush will even go as far as to ban homosexuality.

Here is another one of those fuckin assinine comments people love to just throw out. JUSt like Cameron Diaz on Oprah "IF you dont make a change in the vote RAPE COULD BECOME legal again" The democratic party is crazy! "BUSH Will ban homosexuality" Just because the man doesnt believe in gay marriage, which the majority of the country doesnt. Which both democratic candidates dont either. hmmmm

*JR*
Oct 10th, 2004, 05:03 PM
What basic rights gays currently don't have in the USA? Marriage for example isn't a "basic right", it's a specific right which concerns a minority of gays - as the majority of gays have no intention at all to marry.Uh, next of kin rights re. inheritance and making medical decisions for an incapacitated life partner are 2 examples. (BTW, I'm not gay, but don't need 2B to want them to have every right that I do).

Dawn Marie
Oct 10th, 2004, 05:08 PM
Maritan Bagel you are just plain ole ignorant. how in the hell can you comment on some silly typo to what Bush has done in his job, that was cheated for him.

BUSH KILLS CHILDREN!! BUSH KILLS CHILDREN!! he is killing our troops who have no business being there!! BUSH KILLS CHILDREN!! While Kerry supports our right to CHOOSE!! BUSH KILLS CHILDREN!! BUSH KILLS CHILDFEN!!!

mboyle
Oct 10th, 2004, 06:36 PM
minory?


hmmm like the top 2% wealthiest americans who get tax cuts at the expense of art programs in school or head start.
or
My father should not have to pay extra taxes so children in Nebraska can sing songs for 45 minutes once a week. Sorry. There should not even BE a department of education. It is not a federal responsibility.

mboyle
Oct 10th, 2004, 06:41 PM
is that the minory you were talking about? were you talking about the mediocre party that says its ok for poor and homeless children to not have heatlh issurance or free lunch in the summer, so that this "minory" that makes over $200,000 can have shiny new tax cuts?
Okay first of all...THIS IS A GOSH DARN CHEERING THREAD!!!!!IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE US PRESIDENT, STAY OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Second, the government has always failed MISERABLY when it tries to help the poor. Heck, if it hadn't been for welfare, the economic gap between whites and blacks would CERTAINLY have ceased to exist, or at least lessend itself, by now. (as demonstrated by the fact that in like 10 or less years since Welfare has been significantly reduced, the black middle class has grown by something like 50%) Therefore, don't make the rich throw money away on government programs condemned to fail. Encourage them to donate instead to well organized charities that work two to three times more efficiently than the idiotic, unaccountable government agencies.

mboyle
Oct 10th, 2004, 06:45 PM
Maritan Bagel you are just plain ole ignorant. how in the hell can you comment on some silly typo to what Bush has done in his job, that was cheated for him.

BUSH KILLS CHILDREN!! BUSH KILLS CHILDREN!! he is killing our troops who have no business being there!! BUSH KILLS CHILDREN!! While Kerry supports our right to CHOOSE!! BUSH KILLS CHILDREN!! BUSH KILLS CHILDFEN!!!
Let's play fast and loose with English verbs now. You cannot "comment something to something." Perhaps you were looking to use the verb "compare." Also, that use of the passive voice is very confusing, let alone ficticious.

Why do you say "bush kills children"? I know he has never killed any living being in his life. Had he, he wouldn't be our president. We have lost barely 1000 troops in two years, and they have liberated a country from a tyrannical oppressor. Where was this outcry when we did EXACTLY THE SAME THING w/o UN support in Kosovo? Kerry supports the right to murder babies at a whim. Good for him. What a wonderful person.

JustineTime
Oct 10th, 2004, 06:49 PM
There should not even BE a department of education. It is not a federal responsibility.
:bigclap: Absolutely correct! (Please see 10th Amendment)

The "General Welfare" clause has been more broadly interpreted with each succeeding generation since 1933, resulting in the wide perception that the federal government is the cure for whatever ails you. This unfortunate (and completely incorrect) misapplication of constitutional authority has transformed our once-republic into a democratic socialist state.

What a tragedy! :tears: :tears: :tears:

Bacardi
Oct 10th, 2004, 07:27 PM
Let's play fast and loose with English verbs now. You cannot "comment something to something." Perhaps you were looking to use the verb "compare." Also, that use of the passive voice is very confusing, let alone ficticious.

Why do you say "bush kills children"? I know he has never killed any living being in his life. Had he, he wouldn't be our president. We have lost barely 1000 troops in two years, and they have liberated a country from a tyrannical oppressor. Where was this outcry when we did EXACTLY THE SAME THING w/o UN support in Kosovo? Kerry supports the right to murder babies at a whim. Good for him. What a wonderful person.

His wife, Laura, sure as hell is a murder if there ever was one thou. :wavey:

mboyle, please go back to playing on the Britney board or something. Politics and the world mean nothing to your age group.

Also, it kinda would be nice to see them do away with Federal education. Little pukes like you, would wonder the rest of your existance just as dumb as you are today. Then again, lil Bushie, you keep forgetting YOU CANNOT VOTE. Therefore, your bumbling bullshit means absolutely NOTHING.

Only 1000 troops dead, you talk as if a single one of those individuals were not a human being. They were a worthless robot for Bush right? They didn't have a heart, soul, a family, or anything else... Is basically how you've talked since this war started. You are a heartless little bastard, that I hope if Bush does get re-instated he sends your ass over on the draft boat so you can join that 1000+ number. If you are the FUTURE, I weep for the future and maybe should change my stance on the draft. We'd be better off without you. BTW, you keep forgetting about how many innocent Iraqi's have been slaughtered by Bush!

Shane54
Oct 10th, 2004, 07:42 PM
That Shane54 is a walking condiction, everyone here knows that, except himself probably. Who knows, he's probably in denial about that fact that he's gay. :lol:

If it is possible, Bush will even go as far as to ban homosexuality.Say what you like. If you read my post directly, I said that i dont agree w/ everything he does. And no i am not in denial. I just don't wear "Gay" on my sleeves. I may on these boards, but not in everyday life. It's just that on most fiscal issues I side with the right. I am a moderate on social issues. So anyone can say what they want. You are entitled to your opinion. And I am also.

Lefties often criticize the right. Well, the lefties on these boards are some of the most vicious vipers around.

Shane54
Oct 10th, 2004, 07:45 PM
Let's play fast and loose with English verbs now. You cannot "comment something to something." Perhaps you were looking to use the verb "compare." Also, that use of the passive voice is very confusing, let alone ficticious.

Why do you say "bush kills children"? I know he has never killed any living being in his life. Had he, he wouldn't be our president. We have lost barely 1000 troops in two years, and they have liberated a country from a tyrannical oppressor. Where was this outcry when we did EXACTLY THE SAME THING w/o UN support in Kosovo? Kerry supports the right to murder babies at a whim. Good for him. What a wonderful person.
Totally agree with you mboyle. Except it is "Ok "when one side believes in what it believes. I am guilty of that too. But I find it ironic that those who are pro war are anti abortion and those who are anti war are mostly Pro abortion.:confused:

*JR*
Oct 10th, 2004, 07:51 PM
But for gays voting republicans, there are other issues outweighting that, it's as simple as that.True. There always have been ppl willing to surrender rights they should be able to take for granted, and always will be.

Bacardi
Oct 10th, 2004, 07:54 PM
I've got to say one thing, either Shane54 is living his life in the closet. Or he's only acting gay on the board because it's the popular thing to do. Both of which makes you completely insane.

If you vote for Bush, just remember, it's a vote against what you claim to be. You'll never get married, any unions, any rights, any benefits, forget adoption, hell, maybe you'll get lucky and he'll stick you in jail for being gay. But as long as you keep up that closted image, maybe, just maybe you'll get away with it... since it's probably an act anyway. :rolleyes:

LindsayRulez
Oct 10th, 2004, 07:58 PM
Shane54 are you for real here???

Man you need to read up on some of Dubya policies when it comes to gay rights??

Anyone who is gay or black and votes for Bush is a true DUMB FUCK!! You must be ignorant.
that's the smartest thing I've heard today! :bounce:

CJ07
Oct 10th, 2004, 08:01 PM
Shane54 are you for real here???

Man you need to read up on some of Dubya policies when it comes to gay rights??

Anyone who is gay or black and votes for Bush is a true DUMB FUCK!! You must be ignorant.Oh my goodness :o

OK, where do I start :lol:

Look y'all. I really do not understand why everyone is sooo hostile toward Georgie. I don't even like him that much but honestly the whole left wing just despises him. And its really unfair and not that serious.

Look, George is doing the best he can. If you think that his best isn't as good as someone else's, that's fine. And you're completely entitled to have that opinion. But to scathe him constantly over everything he does without one ounce of recognition for the good things he has done is just unfair.

And for that Black and Gay comment, what the heck is that supposed to mean?
Georgie said he does not believe in Gay marriage, that doesn't mean he is against gay people. I agree with him. There's nothign wrong with two people who love each other be together etc., but not in "marriage". That's two completely different things. I think he is reluctant to go too far into Gay Unions because they're virtually the same thing, and its yielding too much to that whole group. I think he, and his crew, is trying to stick as much to his views as they can, without conceeding anything. I highly respect that. The take it or leave it approach, while not very democratic, shows he believes strongly in his views.

As for the black comment, I'm black and I take that extreemely offensive. Let's take affirmative action. I'm applying to Dartmouth soon. 5 other people are applying early as well. Now, more likely than not. I'm more likely to get in than they are (by 217%) having the EXACT same stats. Now what sense does that make? Granted, I'll take it, but I just don't feel comfortable with the idea. If we're supposed to have come so far, we should be truly treated equally, and not with any special benefits.
But then again, while you could say that here, there are some people who need AA. But everyone is going to call me naive and how I'm not really black, blah blah. But all I know is that being black has to do with

1) Melanin
2) DNA
3) Hereditary Traits

That's it.

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
GEORGE!!!
BTW- I'm not expecting you to agree with me, I respect your opinion. All I ask is that you respect mine

Oh and mboyle.
You go to a great new england school right? Do you think you can get that same education in say, Chocktaw, Mississippi?
And if not, do you think thats right?
Just asking

JustineTime
Oct 10th, 2004, 08:04 PM
His wife, Laura, sure as hell is a murder if there ever was one thou. :wavey:
That is a shameful, cheap, disgusting shot at a very distinguished lady!

You have certainly accomplished one thing by it, however: I will henceforth cease discourse with you, until and unless you apologize for your despicable attack on one of the most respectable First Ladies in the history of the United States!

CJ07
Oct 10th, 2004, 08:06 PM
That is a shameful, cheap, disgusting shot at a very distinguished lady!

You have certainly accomplished one thing by it, however: I will henceforth cease discourse with you, until and unless you apologize for your despicable attack on one of the most respectable First Ladies in the history of the United States!
he said that? Don't even argue. Some people are just too far out there too even make sense

Bacardi
Oct 10th, 2004, 08:07 PM
Yes you'll cease it anyway, won't you?

Because in the other thread I told you I voted for Bush in 2000. I liked him, I hated Gore and still do. It's because I cleared things up for you, that I am not a Dem or a Repub, instead I vote for the right candidate that's best for the times. I guess using your brain to choose a candidate just pisses you off.

BTW, she was a muderer. Call it what you want, in the 60s she ran a stop sign and killed her boyfriend at the time by hitting his car. He died because of her negligence. There is no way you can cover that fact up. So ultimately, the First Lady is a murderer who should have served some time or paid some penice for her failure to read and obey a fucking STOP sign. Then again, goes to prove, her and W match just fine. Both of them are illiterate!

Shane54
Oct 10th, 2004, 08:10 PM
Oh my goodness :o

OK, where do I start :lol:



And for that Black and Gay comment, what the heck is that supposed to mean?
Georgie said he does not believe in Gay marriage, that doesn't mean he is against gay people. I agree with him. There's nothign wrong with two people who love each other be together etc., but not in "marriage". That's two completely different things. I think he is reluctant to go too far into Gay Unions because they're virtually the same thing, and its yielding too much to that whole group. I think he, and his crew, is trying to stick as much to his views as they can, without conceeding anything. I highly respect that. The take it or leave it approach, while not very democratic, shows he believes strongly in his views.

Thank you very much. You have just explained my feelings. Bush is not for putting people into prisons for being gay. That is just a bunch of bullshit. People's hatred for Bush has really blinded them to any sense of objectiveness. He just doesn't believe in gay marriage.

The last I had read was that Kerry and Edwards were against gay marriage also. Oh but I guess that is OK with most posters here because they have the "D" behind their names :rolleyes:

*JR*
Oct 10th, 2004, 08:11 PM
Yes you'll cease it anyway, won't you?

Because in the other thread I told you I voted for Bush in 2000. I liked him, I hated Gore and still do. It's because I cleared things up for you, that I am not a Dem or a Repub, instead I vote for the right candidate that's best for the times. I guess using your brain to choose a candidate just pisses you off.

BTW, she was a muderer. Call it what you want, in the 60s she ran a stop sign and killed her boyfriend at the time by hitting his car. He died because of her negligence. There is no way you can cover that fact up. So ultimately, the First Lady is a murderer who should have served some time or paid some penice for her failure to read and obey a fucking STOP sign. Then again, goes to prove, her and W match just fine. Both of them are illiterate!Uh, let's be fair here. Ted Kennedy caused a young woman to die with his car 35 years ago, but has still remained a US Senator to this day. (And he @ least delayed the accident report).

Bacardi
Oct 10th, 2004, 08:12 PM
Hey Sunshine, not a Dem or a Republican here, if you are actually concerned about your sexuality vote Nader, it's a vote for Bush anyway. ;)

I vote for who I think is the best Candidate for my views on the world, this time it happens to be Kerry. Four years ago, it happened to be Bush.

Bacardi
Oct 10th, 2004, 08:13 PM
Uh, let's be fair here. Ted Kennedy caused a young woman to die with his car 35 years ago, but has still remained a US Senator to this day. (And he @ least delayed the accident report).

Exactly, and that's a vicious cover up for the Kennedy family. There's also a rapist I believe in their family as well. I think it should be manditory that anyone with any kind of a criminal record should not be considered for any public office.

Shane54
Oct 10th, 2004, 08:16 PM
Hey Sunshine, not a Dem or a Republican here, if you are actually concerned about your sexuality vote Nader, it's a vote for Bush anyway. ;)

I vote for who I think is the best Candidate for my views on the world, this time it happens to be Kerry. Four years ago, it happened to be Bush.
Hey Bacardi, here's a point on different subject concerning Nader. Why do you still consider it a vote for Bush. Don't you think if someone HATED or disliked Bush that much that they would remember the 2000 election and not throw it away this time on Nader.

Could it be that people who vote for Nader this time around can't stand Bush or Kerry? Just a hypothesis

*JR*
Oct 10th, 2004, 08:17 PM
Exactly, and that's a vicious cover up for the Kennedy family. There's also a rapist I believe in their family as well. I think it should be manditory that anyone with any kind of a criminal record should not be considered for any public office. Or 2B a WTA coach, thus disqualifying Rainer Hofmann! :D

Bacardi
Oct 10th, 2004, 08:19 PM
True, but the vote for a 3rd member or party is just a vote for whoever's the favorite. That's no secret. That's why through history a lot of bad business has gone down for the popular candidate to support the Independent.

Then again, you probably just vote for your Party's side right? You'd vote Republican reguardless, correct?

Odd, I wish they would just drop the parties completely, I for one am voting Democrat for President, Independent for a few county offices, Republican for Congress. I'm all over the place, because I vote on what they say, and their stance on issues, not because whatever party I like drills it into my robot head I should vote only Repub or Dem.

Bacardi
Oct 10th, 2004, 08:21 PM
Isn't Rainer the insane dude that done some coaching years ago? Wasn't he the nutjob that coached Patty Schnyder and had her into the all oranges diet? :eek:

Shane54
Oct 10th, 2004, 08:24 PM
True, but the vote for a 3rd member or party is just a vote for whoever's the favorite. That's no secret. That's why through history a lot of bad business has gone down for the popular candidate to support the Independent.

Then again, you probably just vote for your Party's side right? You'd vote Republican reguardless, correct?

Odd, I wish they would just drop the parties completely, I for one am voting Democrat for President, Independent for a few county offices, Republican for Congress. I'm all over the place, because I vote on what they say, and their stance on issues, not because whatever party I like drills it into my robot head I should vote only Repub or Dem.
Well yes I totally agree I think they should get rid of political parties. And honestly Bacardi who knows- many people might not be so inclined to hate Bush if he didn't have the "R" behind his name. And the same could be true for GOP's towards Dem's

Bacardi
Oct 10th, 2004, 08:27 PM
Probably, wasn't Regan a Dem before he became a Repub? :scratch:

I think Political parties are stupid, it's one way for someone else to control a mass majority of the people. Because they simply relate to a stupid letter.

But I won't vote for Bush, after seeing how he's handled things this time around. Esp the gay issues. Why we can't all have equal rights, I'll never understand. You must admit, even Cheney disagrees with Bush on the homosexual issues business. Don't you think that's a bit strange?

I guess it goes to show, in the Bush/Cheney administration, it is Cheney that has all the brains. ;)

Shane54
Oct 10th, 2004, 08:32 PM
Like I said yes I am voting for Bush, but I don't agree with him on everything. I am a moderate Rep. more like Arnold and Guliani. I am definetely not an ultra conservative. Bush may be one, but I have to look past the gay issues. I am not going to vote one way because of one issue like some(abortion, gun laws, etc.)


But I hate political parties though. We both do agree on that.;)

*JR*
Oct 10th, 2004, 08:35 PM
Isn't Rainer the insane dude that done some coaching years ago? Wasn't he the nutjob that coached Patty Schnyder and had her into the all oranges diet? :eek:That was Rainer Harnecker. Rainer Hofmann is just a Career Conman.

Shane54
Oct 10th, 2004, 08:37 PM
What if a vote for Kerry is a vote against what he claims to be, for another aspect of his life. :confused:

What's so hard to understand that there are other aspects in a vote than some specific social issues. :confused:

Some people are more concerned about other issues than whether gays can adopt children or not or if they can marry or not, and it outweighs that.
I am gay and want to say that you explained my feelings to a tee!!!
:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

tenn_ace
Oct 10th, 2004, 09:32 PM
how ppl could cheer and vote for a liar (just watch his 2000 promises)? :rolleyes: beats me...

RVD
Oct 10th, 2004, 10:16 PM
how ppl could cheer and vote for a liar (just watch his 2000 promises)? :rolleyes: beats me...Tenn_ace, it's as simple as that. And I agree!

What's truly HILARIOUS is that SMM wrote Look, George is doing the best he can. [quote]If you think that his best isn't as good as someone else's, that's fine. And you're completely entitled to have that opinion. But to scathe him constantly over everything he does without one ounce of recognition for the good things he has done is just unfair.If this is GW's best, then GOD help us all! This is reason enough alone to get his ass out of office. He's an undilluted IDIOT! And WHAT good has this fool done. Please enlighten the masses.

And then he/she has the audacity to write this! :eek:
As for the black comment, I'm black and I take that extreemely offensive. Let's take affirmative action. I'm applying to Dartmouth soon. 5 other people are applying early as well. Now, more likely than not. I'm more likely to get in than they are (by 217%) having the EXACT same stats. Now what sense does that make? Granted, I'll take it, but I just don't feel comfortable with the idea. If we're supposed to have come so far, we should be truly treated equally, and not with any special benefits.
But then again, while you could say that here, there are some people who need AA. But everyone is going to call me naive and how I'm not really black, blah blah. But all I know is that being black has to do with.WOW!!!!!! I'm sorry, did you say that you were black? :eek:
Your not Black! You're Condoleezza Rice! :lol: :lol: Quit slummin and get back to work! :lol:

My brother and I were talking one day and just wondered what type of ignorant people support GWB. Now I can go back and tell him. :rolleyes: :lol:

kabuki
Oct 10th, 2004, 10:18 PM
What some of you fail to realize... There is a whole world outside "gay rights" or some other issues similar.

What if someone prefers Bush for his economical stances, for example, and it outweighs anything else including gay right?

Then you obviously have never been discriminated against.

kabuki
Oct 10th, 2004, 10:19 PM
Why, because you've just decided so?

So you would vote for a totally mediocre party that put all his focus on human rights only?

Life is more complex than that... It isn't just about some particular rights (that concern a minory of people).

Some of us don't have the luxury to be part of the "majority." Life is certainly very complex, especially for second class citizens.

kabuki
Oct 10th, 2004, 10:25 PM
That is a shameful, cheap, disgusting shot at a very distinguished lady!

You have certainly accomplished one thing by it, however: I will henceforth cease discourse with you, until and unless you apologize for your despicable attack on one of the most respectable First Ladies in the history of the United States!

:lol:

kabuki
Oct 10th, 2004, 10:27 PM
Thank you very much. You have just explained my feelings. Bush is not for putting people into prisons for being gay. That is just a bunch of bullshit. People's hatred for Bush has really blinded them to any sense of objectiveness. He just doesn't believe in gay marriage.

The last I had read was that Kerry and Edwards were against gay marriage also. Oh but I guess that is OK with most posters here because they have the "D" behind their names :rolleyes:

It's about the Supreme Court, you moron.

kabuki
Oct 10th, 2004, 10:29 PM
What if a vote for Kerry is a vote against what he claims to be, for another aspect of his life. :confused:

What's so hard to understand that there are other aspects in a vote than some specific social issues. :confused:

Some people are more concerned about other issues than whether gays can adopt children or not or if they can marry or not, and it outweighs that.

By your logic, if this were 1850, you'd be arguing against the abolition of slavery.

kabuki
Oct 10th, 2004, 10:45 PM
All I said is that there are many factors that influence a decision when voting.

But apparently it means I would be arguing against the abolition of slavery if this were in 1850!

When you put basic human rights behind "other more important issues," what do you expect?

kabuki
Oct 10th, 2004, 10:46 PM
What do you know about me exactly?

Then tell me about yourself.

kabuki
Oct 10th, 2004, 10:54 PM
The discussion is going in circle... Gay marriage and adoption are NOT "basic human rights" (how is it basic?), it's specific rights which concern very few people, considering the majority of gays have no intention to marry or to adopt children. For a lot of people, there are far more important issues when it's time to choose who's going to be the next president.

They are basic because they are options available to straights. Since you know the majority of gays, and have asked them about marriage and adoption, tell them that there are those of us who do want to have equal rights.

kabuki
Oct 10th, 2004, 10:55 PM
I'm gay, and I would probably vote democrats if I would live in the USA. Ha!

You are a mess. :lol: And I don't believe you. :lol: You and Shane should shack up.

kabuki
Oct 10th, 2004, 11:00 PM
I don't need to ask them :silly: We're not living in the same universe if you think the majority have the intention of getting married and/or having children.

I don't presume to know what "the majority" of gays want to do. I do know that if gays had the legal right to do both, "many" would do it. And besides, what number of people justifies the need for human rights? Do 100 gay couples have to want to marry and have children? 1000? 100000? The numbers don't matter. It's not right, it is not just.

kabuki
Oct 10th, 2004, 11:04 PM
So I guess you're NOT going to vote for Kerry, as he does NOT believe in the concept of gay marriage.

So every gay who votes for Kerry should be ashamed of himself!

Here in the States, the issue is the Supreme Court. Marriage, adoption, suvivorship, inheritance, hospital visitation, will all come from the court. Historically minorities rights come from the court. This president will likely appoint at least 2 justices to lifetime positions, effectively, the rest of my judicial life.

*JR*
Oct 10th, 2004, 11:12 PM
The discussion is going in circle... Gay marriage and adoption are NOT "basic human rights" (how is it basic?), it's specific rights which concern very few people, considering the majority of gays have no intention to marry or to adopt children. For a lot of people, there are far more important issues when it's time to choose who's going to be the next president.Marriage is a technically just a word. But since (Americans, anyway) derive specific rights from it (like next-of-kin status if a life partner is very ill or dies) the issue is having all such rights. (Also, the military's own "don't ask, don't tell" policy has been widely ignored by officers, and made gays who now are sent to quite possibly be killed or maimed in Iraq "live a lie" to their fellow soldiers). :rolleyes:

kabuki
Oct 10th, 2004, 11:24 PM
But some people (including gays) consider other issues to be more important or to weigh more when it's time to vote. That's all. And for every issues, the less people are concerned, the less important it makes the issue.

Well it's a good thing you live in Canada where you already have civil rights.

jenny161185
Oct 10th, 2004, 11:27 PM
I actually quite like George Bush especially compared to John Kerry , sure Bush may have made mistakes but he was president through a very tough period and I think anyone in his position would have been criticesed nomatter which decision they made.I want George in office till 08 and then I want Hillary Clinton to come in and lay the smackdown on him!

Shane54
Oct 10th, 2004, 11:32 PM
Marriage is a technically just a word. But since (Americans, anyway) derive specific rights from it (like next-of-kin status if a life partner is very ill or dies) the issue is having all such rights. (Also, the military's own "don't ask, don't tell" policy has been widely ignored by officers, and made gays who now are sent to quite possibly be killed or maimed in Iraq "live a lie" to their fellow soldiers). :rolleyes:
I am sure every soldier who is gay is quite happy keeping it to themselves. Not everyone who is gay needs to come out of the closet and wave their little rainbow flags. These soldiers who choose to keep quiet are gay. Not fags. There is a difference. Just like their is between a "lipstick lesbian" and a "Dike".
So you all can rant and rave. Please feel free.

Shane54
Oct 10th, 2004, 11:35 PM
And I am sure these same posters who berade Bush probably would have voted for Jimmy Carter again :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

kabuki
Oct 10th, 2004, 11:41 PM
I am sure every soldier who is gay is quite happy keeping it to themselves. Not everyone who is gay needs to come out of the closet and wave their little rainbow flags. These soldiers who choose to keep quiet are gay. Not fags. There is a difference. Just like their is between a "lipstick lesbian" and a "Dike".
So you all can rant and rave. Please feel free.

Your internalized homophobia is sad.

Shane54
Oct 10th, 2004, 11:49 PM
Your internalized homophobia is sad.
I like gay men. Not fags. You are increasingly making my point.

kabuki
Oct 10th, 2004, 11:55 PM
I like gay men. Not fags. You are increasingly making my point.

I like gay men, whether they are "masculine," "butch," "queenie," or whatever they choose to be, or seem to be. And lesbians can be "dykes," "femme," or whatever they please. I just don't like gay men or lesbians that hate themselves.

Shane54
Oct 10th, 2004, 11:59 PM
Well you go on with your bad self:hearts:

kabuki
Oct 10th, 2004, 11:59 PM
And as a matter of fact, Shane, no matter what you may think you are, Republican, butch, masculine, whatever, YOU STILL LIKE DICK. Whether you are butch or queeny or somewhere inbetween, YOU STILL WANT DICK. It is all the same thing. If you say you "hate fags," you hate yourself.

Shane54
Oct 11th, 2004, 12:36 AM
And as a matter of fact, Shane, no matter what you may think you are, Republican, butch, masculine, whatever, YOU STILL LIKE DICK. Whether you are butch or queeny or somewhere inbetween, YOU STILL WANT DICK. It is all the same thing. If you say you "hate fags," you hate yourself.
Go Kabuki! Go on with your bad self :lol:

CJ07
Oct 11th, 2004, 12:42 AM
Why are you telling Shane what to think?

And there are other issues than Gay rights. Quite frankly, its not even a real issue. Just something people bring up to make GW look like the devil. EVERY major politician has the same view on gay's, just worded differently

Shane54
Oct 11th, 2004, 12:45 AM
Thanks SMM. At least someone sees my point. And believe it or not, there are alot more gays who are voting for Bush. There are more issues than gay marriage, etc. The world does not revolve around my being gay.

Shane54
Oct 11th, 2004, 12:48 AM
Why are you telling Shane what to think?

And there are other issues than Gay rights. Quite frankly, its not even a real issue. Just something people bring up to make GW look like the devil. EVERY major politician has the same view on gay's, just worded differentlyYeah, the Republicans may call us "queer" to our face, but the Democrats do it behind our back. Clinton was in office 8 years, and how far did we get. Nowhere. He was just being politically correct. I was in style to be "gay friendly". It got him some votes. woop tee doo

And last I heard was that Kerry and Edwards did not support gay marriage. Yet, I am SUPPOSED to vote for him b/c I am gay.

GoDominique
Oct 11th, 2004, 01:13 AM
I must say I loved the "Now watch this stroke" comment. :lol:

esquímaux
Oct 11th, 2004, 01:17 AM
Yes, GOOOOO GEORGE!!!!!! Go back to Texas! :D
No, we don't want him back :D Isn't there some remote Aleutian Island we can ship him to? :D:D:D

esquímaux
Oct 11th, 2004, 01:30 AM
and reps simply steal elections like last time in Fla... that's what I call ridiculous :wavey::lol: Georgey Porgey was appointed, not elected :D
Shane54 are you for real here???

Man you need to read up on some of Dubya policies when it comes to gay rights??

Anyone who is gay or black and votes for Bush is a true DUMB FUCK!! You must be ignorant.
:rolls:

*JR*
Oct 11th, 2004, 01:44 AM
Yeah, the Republicans may call us "queer" to our face, but the Democrats do it behind our back. Clinton was in office 8 years, and how far did we get. Nowhere. He was just being politically correct. I was in style to be "gay friendly". It got him some votes. woop tee doo

And last I heard was that Kerry and Edwards did not support gay marriage. Yet, I am SUPPOSED to vote for him b/c I am gay.Clinton had to accept the deficient "don't ask, don't tell" because it was all Congress (with the support of then Joint Chiefs Chairman Colin Powell, of course) would give him.

And I'll bet Kerry would give domestic partners the same rights married couples have, would Bush? (Cheney would too, of course, but only because of his lesbian daughter). :lol:

VSFan1 aka Joshua L.
Oct 11th, 2004, 12:39 PM
I am sure every soldier who is gay is quite happy keeping it to themselves. Not everyone who is gay needs to come out of the closet and wave their little rainbow flags. These soldiers who choose to keep quiet are gay. Not fags. There is a difference. Just like their is between a "lipstick lesbian" and a "Dike".
So you all can rant and rave. Please feel free.
I never thought I'd say this, but you are a homophobic homosexual. Apparently you are uncomfortable with out gay people!

How oxymoronic :eek:

VSFan1 aka Joshua L.
Oct 11th, 2004, 12:43 PM
Clinton had to accept the deficient "don't ask, don't tell" because it was all Congress (with the support of then Joint Chiefs Chairman Colin Powell, of course) would give him.

And I'll bet Kerry would give domestic partners the same rights married couples have, would Bush? (Cheney would too, of course, but only because of his lesbian daughter). :lol:
No major politician supports gay marriage - except for Senator Feingold and Rep. Pelosi.

Anyways, the debate is about whether or not we want elected officials that actively pursue an agenda to insert discrimination against gays into the constitution.

Furthermore, Bush refuses to take up any action on ENDA - the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, which guarantees that no one can be fired from their job for being gay. This is extreme to me, because there are a wide array of republicans (and most democrats) that accept this proposal, but he and the congressional leadership refuse to introduce it as a bill on the floor. Why? Because they think you should be able to be fired for being gay.

Infiniti2001
Oct 11th, 2004, 01:01 PM
For Marines, a Frustrating Fight

By Steve Fainaru

ISKANDARIYAH, Iraq -- Scrawled on the helmet of Lance Cpl. Carlos Perez are the letters FDNY. After the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on New York, the Pentagon and western Pennsylvania, Perez quit school, left his job as a firefighter in Long Island, N.Y., and joined the U.S. Marine Corps.

"To be honest, I just wanted to take revenge," said Perez, 20.

Now, two months into a seven-month combat tour in Iraq, Perez said he sees little connection between the events of Sept. 11 and the war he is fighting. Instead, he said, he is increasingly disillusioned by a conflict whose origins remain unclear and frustrated by the timidity of U.S. forces against a mostly faceless enemy.

"Sometimes I see no reason why we're here," Perez said. "First of all, you cannot engage as many times as we want to. Second of all, we're looking for an enemy that's not there. The only way to do it is go house to house until we get out of here."

Perez is hardly alone. In a dozen interviews, Marines from a platoon known as the "81s" expressed in blunt terms their frustrations with the way the war is being conducted and, in some cases, doubts about why it is being waged. The platoon, named for the size in millimeters of its mortar rounds, is part of the 1st Battalion, 2nd Marine Regiment based in Iskandariyah, 30 miles southwest of Baghdad.

The Marines offered their opinions openly to a reporter traveling with the 1st Battalion, 2nd Marines during operations last week in Babil province, then expanded upon them during interviews over three days in their barracks at Camp Iskandariyah, their forward operating base.

The Marines' opinions have been shaped by their participation in hundreds of hours of operations over the past two months. Their assessments differ sharply from those of the interim Iraqi government and the Bush administration, which have said that Iraq is on a certain -- if bumpy -- course toward peaceful democracy.

"I feel we're going to be here for years and years and years," said Lance Cpl. Edward Elston, 22, of Hackettstown, N.J. "I don't think anything is going to get better; I think it's going to get a lot worse. It's going to be like a Palestinian-type deal. We're going to stop being a policing presence and then start being an occupying presence. . . . We're always going to be here. We're never going to leave."

The views of the mortar platoon of some 50 young Marines, several of whom fought during the first phase of the war last year, are not necessarily reflective of all or even most U.S troops fighting in Iraq. Rather, they offer a snapshot of the frustrations engendered by a grinding conflict that has killed 1,064 Americans, wounded 7,730 and spread to many areas of the country.

Although not as highly publicized as attacks in such hot spots as Fallujah, Samarra and Baghdad's Sadr City, the violence in Babil province, south of the capital, is also intense. Since July 28, when the Marines took over operational responsibility for the region, 102 of the unit's 1,100 troops have been wounded, 85 in combat, according to battalion records. Four have been killed, two in combat.

Senior officers attribute the vast difference between the number of killed and wounded to the effectiveness of armor -- bullet-proof vests, helmets and reinforced armored vehicles, primarily Humvees -- in the face of persistent attacks. As of last week, the Marines had come upon 61 roadside bombs, nearly one a day. Forty-nine had detonated. Camp Iskandariyah was hit by mortar shells or rockets on 12 occasions; 21 other times, insurgents tried to hit the base and missed.
Realities on the Ground
Several members of the platoon said they were struck by the difference between the way the war was being portrayed in the United States and the reality of their daily lives.

"Every day you read the articles in the States where it's like, 'Oh, it's getting better and better,' " said Lance Cpl. Jonathan Snyder, 22, of Gettysburg, Pa. "But when you're here, you know it's worse every day."

Pfc. Kyle Maio, 19, of Bucks County, Pa., said he thought government officials were reticent to speak candidly because of the upcoming U.S. elections. "Stuff's going on here but they won't flat-out say it," he said. "They can't get into it."

Maio said that when he arrived in Iraq, "I didn't think I was going to live this long, in all honesty." He added, "it ain't that bad. It's just part of the job, I guess."

As a reporter began to ask Maio another question, the interview was interrupted by the scream of an incoming rocket and then a deafening explosion outside the platoon's barracks. Pandemonium ensued.

"Get down! Get down!" yelled the platoon's radio operator, Cpl. Brandon Autin, 21, of New Iberia, La., his orders laced with profanity. "Get in the bunker! Get in the bunker now!"

Members of the platoon raced out of their rooms to a 5-by-15-foot bunker, located outside at the end of the one-story building. The dirt-floor room was protected by a low ceiling and walls built out of four-foot-thick sandbags. Once in the bunker, several Marines lit cigarettes, filling the already-congested room with smoke.

"The reality right now is that the most dangerous opinion in the world is the opinion of a U.S. serviceman," said Lance Cpl. Devin Kelly, 20, of Fairbanks, Alaska.

Lance Cpl. Alexander Jones, 20, of Ball Ground, Ga., agreed: "We're basically proving out that the government is wrong," he said. "We're catching them in a lie."

Senior officers said they shared many of the platoon's frustrations but added that it was difficult for low-level Marines to see the larger progress being made across Iraq. Maj. Douglas Bell, the battalion's executive officer, said "one of the most difficult things about the insurgency is identifying the enemy."

Bell said it was frustrating for "every Marine in the battalion" to search for insurgents on a daily basis, only to be attacked repeatedly with bombs and mortars detonated or launched by an invisible enemy. "You want to get your hand around his frigging collar and kick his ass," Bell said. "But they slip away."

Bell said Marines offering dire predictions for Iraq were not taking into account the training of the new Iraqi security forces. He said the installation of the new Iraqi army, Iraqi National Guard and police across the country would lay the foundation for the withdrawal of U.S. troops.

"That's how we're going to get out of Iraq," Bell said. "That's how America is going to get out of Iraq."

The Marines acknowledged that the elusiveness of the insurgents was frustrating. "You don't really know who you're fighting. You're more or less fighting objects," said Elston, the lance corporal from New Jersey. "You see something on the side of the road. It blows up."

But the Marines said their frustrations run deeper. Several said the Iraqi security forces who are supposed to ultimately replace them were nowhere near ready and may never be.

"They can't take care of themselves," said Lance Cpl. Matthew Combs, 19, of Cincinnati, who added that he didn't think the National Guardsmen "can do anything. They just do what we tell them to do."
The Price of Precaution
The Marines also expressed frustration that they were unable to fight more aggressively because of restraints in the rules of engagement imposed by senior commanders.

The rules, which require Marines to positively identify their target as hostile before shooting, are cumbersome in the face of urban guerrilla warfare, several of them said.

"When we get called out, we'll sit there staging there for an hour," Maio said. "By the time we're ready to move, they're up and gone. A few weeks ago, the Iskandariyah police station was under attack. We staged for damn near an hour before we went out. It's stupid. You have to wait to get approval and all this other stuff."

Kelly, the lance corporal from Alaska, said he understood the need to protect civilians but that the restraints were jeopardizing American lives. "It seems as if they place more value on obeying the letter of the law and sacrificing our lives than following the spirit of the law and getting the job done," he said of his commanders.

Bell said the Marines' frustration was understandable but that it was extremely difficult to make a determination of hostile intent following a roadside bombing that might have been detonated by anything from a remote-controlled toy car to a cell phone. "That's a pretty difficult decision to make for a 19-year-old kid," he said.

Lance Cpl. Jeremy Kyrk, 21, of Chicago, said the insurgents took advantage of the limitations imposed on U.S. troops. "They don't give us any leeway, they don't give us any quarter," he said. "They catch people and cut their heads off. They know our limits, but they have no limits. We can't compete with that."
A Decision to Serve
Perez said the frustrations inherent in the war became apparent almost immediately after he arrived in Iraq in late July. A Colombian immigrant, he said he decided to join the Marine Corps after attending the funeral of a friend who had died in the Sept. 11 attacks. The friend, Thomas Hetzel, was a volunteer firefighter at the Franklin Square & Munson Fire Department on Long Island, where Perez also volunteered.

At the time, Perez was studying criminal justice at Nassau Community College. "While I was at the funeral I was looking at his little daughter cry," he said. "He had a pregnant wife and two kids. I just said, 'All right, this is what I want to do.' "

But Perez said he came to think that war in Iraq was unrelated to his anger. "How do I put this?" he said. "First of all, this is a whole different thing. We're supposed to be looking for al Qaeda. They're the ones who are supposedly responsible for the Sept. 11 attacks. This has no connection at all to Sept. 11 because this war started just by telling us about all the nuclear warheads over here."

Snyder, who was listening, added: "Pretty much I think they just diverted the war on terrorism. I agree with the Afghanistan war and all the Sept. 11 stuff, but it feels like they left the bigger war over there to come here. And now, while we're on the ground over here, it seems like we're not even close to catching frigging bin Laden."

Perez said he thought that in some ways he was still fighting terrorists "and I can see how they might attack the United States in the future. It's a link, but it's not really based in the same thing."

Perez added that he now believes the primary reason for the U.S. presence is to help the Iraqis. "But they don't seem like they want to be helped," he said. "I've only been here two months, but every time you go out, people give you bad looks and it just seems like everybody wants to shoot you."
Questioning Orders
The frustration of the Marines was evident one afternoon last week as members of the platoon traveled from Forward Operating Base Kalsu back to Camp Iskandariyah. An attack had reportedly taken place in the area, and members of the platoon were asked to leave their Humvees and walk up a road to look for suspicious activity.

Traffic quickly began to pile up: cars packed with families, trucks loaded with animals and vegetables. The line of vehicles would have taken hours to search. An order was suddenly passed for the Marines to search all buses for insurgents or weapons.

"This is what we call a dog-and-pony show," said Kelly, the heavyset, sharp-tongued lance corporal from Fairbanks. He said the operation was essentially a performance for American reporters who were traveling with the Marines. "This is so you can write in your paper how great our response is," he said.

Combs and another Marine boarded a small bus packed mostly with women and children. He walked up the center aisle carrying his M-16 assault rifle, then got off, disgusted.

"We just scared the living [expletive] out of a bunch of people," he said. "That's all we did."

When the Marines returned to their truck, Autin and Kelly began to debate the merits of the American presence in Iraq.

"And, by the way, why are we here?" Autin said.

"I'll tell you why we're here," Kelly replied. "We're here to help these people."

Autin agreed and said he supported the mission.

He added later that it was difficult to wage the battle when American commanders were holding them back.

"We feel they care more about Iraqi civilians than they do American soldiers," he said.

Asked if he was concerned that the Marines would be punished for speaking out, Autin responded: "We don't give a crap. What are they going to do, send us to Iraq?"


I 'm quite sure soldiers will be cheering for that dumbfuck

Sam L
Oct 11th, 2004, 01:26 PM
I never thought I'd say this, but you are a homophobic homosexual. Apparently you are uncomfortable with out gay people!

How oxymoronic :eek:
I feel so sorry for him.

You know what Shane, I don't wear 'gay' on my sleeve either and many of my friends don't even know I'm gay. But I'm truthful with myself and I'm not denial and I use my brains when it comes to politics and political figures.

Dawn Marie
Oct 11th, 2004, 01:41 PM
Kabuki, you tell em!!!
Shane54 and Martian Bagel you two are nuts.

Bush will do nothing for human rights. He will and has used his power to appease HIS WAY of thinking. Kerry may not approve of gay marraige but he won't go making up laws and banning homosexual people from he same righs that heerosexual people have. Bush wants to ban abortion. His own opinions will change laws and will effect me! Kerry will not push for abortion just based on his own way of thinking. It is a women's right to CHOOSE. i dont believe that one should use it as birth control, BUT i should be granted the right to make my own decisions with my OWN body.

George is a true fool and idiot. the man has no clue about AMERICA!! only the rich whites.

he cares nothing for the rest of the population in America. Dubya is really a pathetic president. he seems so damn ignorant of even his own job. he is a complete ROBOT that is being pushed and pulled.

PhoenixStorm
Oct 11th, 2004, 02:03 PM
At least he doesn't contradict himself :confused: Kerry's opinions are so half-assed :lol: What will the haters do when Bush DOES gets elected into office again? :haha:
you are such a mindless zombie and a liar. He doesnt contradict himself? Didnt' he say there were weapons of mass destruction? THERE WERE NONE. HE LIED. But I guess thats not a contradiction in your republican brainwashed mind.

Thats just one of a long series of contradictions and wishy washy flip flops this president has committed. Do your research before you speak.

mboyle
Oct 11th, 2004, 03:19 PM
His wife, Laura, sure as hell is a murder if there ever was one thou. :wavey:

mboyle, please go back to playing on the Britney board or something. Politics and the world mean nothing to your age group.

Also, it kinda would be nice to see them do away with Federal education. Little pukes like you, would wonder the rest of your existance just as dumb as you are today. Then again, lil Bushie, you keep forgetting YOU CANNOT VOTE. Therefore, your bumbling bullshit means absolutely NOTHING.

Only 1000 troops dead, you talk as if a single one of those individuals were not a human being. They were a worthless robot for Bush right? They didn't have a heart, soul, a family, or anything else... Is basically how you've talked since this war started. You are a heartless little bastard, that I hope if Bush does get re-instated he sends your ass over on the draft boat so you can join that 1000+ number. If you are the FUTURE, I weep for the future and maybe should change my stance on the draft. We'd be better off without you. BTW, you keep forgetting about how many innocent Iraqi's have been slaughtered by Bush!
OMG I am 16. See, when people are wrong and stupid at the same time, they incessantly bring up irrelevant factors such as age into a discussion. Also, what 16 year old do you know that likes Britney Spears and doesn't get involved in politics? At my school, there is a group of about 50 die hard liberals who drive three hours to New Hampshire to go canvasing for Kerry.

Well, Federal education sure hasn't done anything for anyone, so what would be the problem with axing it?:confused:

Oh the war. See, what you are incapable of understanding is that 1000 people dead here is horrible, and yet incomparable to the tradgedy that undoubtedly would have occurred had So Damn Insane been allowed to continue his shady dealings. See, just like Rome, when Americans start to value peace more than freedom, as you obviously do, the civilized world we live in will fall to pieces. We will enter another catastrophic dark age. The Muslim extremists will have won just as the Franks and the Huns and the Goths did. The soldiers knew what they were getting into by signing up for the army. I am sure most of them are proud to have lost their lives protecting the freedom of the US. Shame on you for disrespecting or discrediting the necessity of their services.

mboyle
Oct 11th, 2004, 03:24 PM
you are such a mindless zombie and a liar. He doesnt contradict himself? Didnt' he say there were weapons of mass destruction? THERE WERE NONE. HE LIED. But I guess thats not a contradiction in your republican brainwashed mind.

Thats just one of a long series of contradictions and wishy washy flip flops this president has committed. Do your research before you speak.
Bush doesn't flip flop. The reason people don't like him is because he doesn't care what the general public wants. He does what he thinks/knows is best for the country. Also, the intelligence that he saw suggested to him that there were WMDs. Myriad Iraqi expatriot scientists attested to the fact. That probably wasn't a lie, but a mistake. Also, there really is no need to call people who don't agree with you "brainwashed." It actually is possible (GASP) that you are wrong:eek: . I might be wrong too. But see, I don't go around shaming people and calling them stupid, unless they have been doing so to me (Bacardi) or to my friends (Volcana.)

mboyle
Oct 11th, 2004, 03:25 PM
Kerry may not approve of gay marraige but he won't go making up laws and banning homosexual people from he same righs that heerosexual people have. Bush wants to ban abortion.
1. Kerry supported Clinton's Marriage reform act. What do you call that?

2. Bush wants to ban abortion personally, but has no plans to do so in actuality.

mboyle
Oct 11th, 2004, 03:29 PM
And as a matter of fact, Shane, no matter what you may think you are, Republican, butch, masculine, whatever, YOU STILL LIKE DICK. Whether you are butch or queeny or somewhere inbetween, YOU STILL WANT DICK. It is all the same thing. If you say you "hate fags," you hate yourself.
ew could you please be a bit more eloquent? I mean, this message was unnecessarily vulgar.

mboyle
Oct 11th, 2004, 03:33 PM
By your logic, if this were 1850, you'd be arguing against the abolition of slavery.
how do you get "you would vote for slavery" out of "there are issues other than gay marriage"? Besides, slavery and gay-marriage are completely different. I think it is sick even to compare them. I mean, I support gay marriage, but it isn't nearly as basic a right as being able to control your own destiny and be treated like a human being is.

mboyle
Oct 11th, 2004, 03:37 PM
how ppl could cheer and vote for a liar (just watch his 2000 promises)? :rolleyes: beats me...
grrr EVERY DAMN POLICITIAN IS A LIAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Joseosu19
Oct 11th, 2004, 04:37 PM
I hope Bush wins the election in November. All this arguing and debating is pretty much pointless, because on here everyone has their idea set in stone.

njguido11
Oct 11th, 2004, 04:50 PM
Didnt most people think that Saddam had WMDs? Didnt Russia and other countrys get the same intelligence reports? DIdnt Bush think this because of intelligence. SO how is that A LIE? IF he really thought they were their i wouldnt say that hes a liar. The MAJORITY of the country doesnt support gay marriage. GET out of ur lil gay bubble and talk to other people.

njguido11
Oct 11th, 2004, 04:53 PM
and reps simply steal elections like last time in Fla... that's what I call ridiculous :wavey:

DIdnt the NEw York times look into the whole election scandal in Florida. And it turned out that BUsh won fair and square. IM SURE THE LIBERAL NEW YORK TIMES would like for BUsh. Funny how people still bring up the so called stolen election when its been proved repeatedly to be a false claim.

kabuki
Oct 12th, 2004, 02:04 AM
ew could you please be a bit more eloquent? I mean, this message was unnecessarily vulgar.

If you don't get my point, or choose not to get it because of the way I said it, that is your problem.

kabuki
Oct 12th, 2004, 02:06 AM
how do you get "you would vote for slavery" out of "there are issues other than gay marriage"? Besides, slavery and gay-marriage are completely different. I think it is sick even to compare them. I mean, I support gay marriage, but it isn't nearly as basic a right as being able to control your own destiny and be treated like a human being is.

Last time I checked controlling your own destiny and being treated like a human being included the ability to decide where your money goes when you die, being able to visit your partner in the hospital, marrying who you want, and having children.

kabuki
Oct 12th, 2004, 11:35 AM
Why, because you've just decided so?

So you would vote for a totally mediocre party that put all his focus on human rights only?

Life is more complex than that... It isn't just about some particular rights (that concern a minory of people).

Those silly minorities of people. Right, Dr. Bagel?

kabuki
Oct 12th, 2004, 11:41 AM
So according to the logic of this thread, any gay person who votes for Kerry is dumb fuck and an ignorant idiot - and should be ashamed of himself, because he's not approving a basic human right.

I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of people jumping on gays who are voting republicans. If you think the democrats support all basic human rights for gays, you're living in a lalaland.

Sheesh, at least now you are admitting that they are "basic human rights."

kabuki
Oct 12th, 2004, 11:51 AM
Didnt most people think that Saddam had WMDs? Didnt Russia and other countrys get the same intelligence reports? DIdnt Bush think this because of intelligence. SO how is that A LIE? IF he really thought they were their i wouldnt say that hes a liar. The MAJORITY of the country doesnt support gay marriage. GET out of ur lil gay bubble and talk to other people.

Why should the "MAJORITY" have any say in my personal life in the first place? Sounds almost like communism to me.

*JR*
Oct 12th, 2004, 12:45 PM
DIdnt the NEw York times look into the whole election scandal in Florida. And it turned out that BUsh won fair and square. IM SURE THE LIBERAL NEW YORK TIMES would like for BUsh. Funny how people still bring up the so called stolen election when its been proved repeatedly to be a false claim.It all depends on what you count. Indeed (as my old GoTennis :o buddy JustineTime points out) all the recounts (even by a press pool statewide when it no longer would have "counted") gave Bush an edge.

But there's little doubt that the "erroneous" felon lists turned away enough (heavily pro-Gore) voters to have to have cost him a few thousand votes net plus, far more than Bush's margin of 537. (That's NOT counting the botched Palm Beach County ballot design, BTW).

Sam L
Oct 12th, 2004, 12:53 PM
Didnt most people think that Saddam had WMDs? Didnt Russia and other countrys get the same intelligence reports? DIdnt Bush think this because of intelligence. SO how is that A LIE? IF he really thought they were their i wouldnt say that hes a liar. The MAJORITY of the country doesnt support gay marriage. GET out of ur lil gay bubble and talk to other people.
Russia and other countries didn't go to the war, that's the difference.

He lied because he knew the truth and still went to war for other reasons.

Wigglytuff
Oct 12th, 2004, 04:46 PM
Considering you make about 1 or 2 spelling mistakes for every sentence you type, I wouldn't point out other people mistakes.

I'm sure the majory of people will agree with me.

i was not mocking the spelling mistake i was pointing the stupidity and hypocrisy of the point. but as always, its impossible to get people to face shit head on!

but here it is again without YOUR spelling mistakes, will you take on the issue head on?

me thinks you will find some other way to avoid it. i dont blame you, its hard to justify that the top 2% of americans arent a "minority" or that their tax cuts justify cuts to food programs for homeless children. but hey if you can find a way let me know.

maybe its hard to reply to stuff with or without spelling mistakes?


Why, because you've just decided so?

So you would vote for a totally mediocre party that put all his focus on human rights only?

Life is more complex than that... It isn't just about some particular rights (that concern a minority of people).

minority?


hmmm like the top 2% wealthiest Americans who get tax cuts at the expense of art programs in school or head start.
or like the one person who decided that the UN didn't matter it was ok to invaded and independent nation because of WMDs that this one person knew were not there.
or how one political party, in one country, can go against the voice of the entire fucking world
or the "minority" of Americans (5%) who own 90% of the resources?

is that the minority you were talking about? were you talking about the mediocre party that says its ok for poor and homeless children to not have health insurance or free lunch in the summer, so that this "minority" that makes over $200,000 can have shiny new tax cuts?

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

esquímaux
Oct 12th, 2004, 06:00 PM
:retard:

mboyle
Oct 12th, 2004, 08:59 PM
kabuki, I just don't know how you can say marriage is an equivalent right to freedom:o ...Besides, you can legally make a will and give all the rights of marriage to whomever you'd like. Now I think marriage would be better and makes sense, but it isn't a basic civil right as defined by the UN. (someone correct me on the UN thing if I am wrong, please.)

Shane54
Oct 17th, 2004, 08:30 PM
Kerry/Fonda '04

Putting the "RED" back in the Red, White, and Blue!

:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:

pcrtennis
Oct 18th, 2004, 10:58 PM
Go GWB!!!!!!!! The right candidate with the right direction!! He's leading in every poll now and I don't see how he;ll lose the election. Kerry inspires no one and turns people off. GO BUSH/CHENEY!

Federico
Oct 19th, 2004, 06:52 PM
That is a shameful, cheap, disgusting shot at a very distinguished lady!

You have certainly accomplished one thing by it, however: I will henceforth cease discourse with you, until and unless you apologize for your despicable attack on one of the most respectable First Ladies in the history of the United States!



Thats hilarious!! lol