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Calimero377
Sep 16th, 2004, 07:01 PM
Serena will be 23 years old next week, Venus is already 24 years 3 months.

Since 1988 (when the Evertilova era came to an end) only about 30 % of slam winners were 23 or older.
And only 20 % were older than Venus today.

:eek:

DA FOREHAND
Sep 16th, 2004, 07:04 PM
And a healthy 28 yr old Californian is the best player on tour right now....

ToeTag
Sep 16th, 2004, 07:05 PM
Serena will be 23 years old next week, Venus is already 24 years 3 months.

Since 1988 (when the Evertilova era came to an end) only about 30 % of slam winners were 23 or older.
And only 20 % were older than Venus today.

:eek:
Guess that leaves out a Steffi Graf come back than. :angel:

Rocketta
Sep 16th, 2004, 07:05 PM
hey what % of Slam winners have been black? I bet that percentage is pretty low as well. :D I figure if they can beat those odds they can beat any odds...:wavey:

sartrista7
Sep 16th, 2004, 07:07 PM
And a healthy 28 yr old Californian is the best player on tour right now....

Not the best argument for winning Slams though :tape:

harloo
Sep 16th, 2004, 07:08 PM
Serena will win another slam next year don't worry.

And if Venus gets that forehand straight she will win at least 2 slams next year.

;) :D :lol:

Calimero377
Sep 16th, 2004, 07:08 PM
Guess that leaves out a Steffi Graf come back than. :angel:


Hmmm - Graf was responsible for half of the old-timers (= older than Serena today) wins in 88-04. Without her the stats would be even more damning for the 23+ generation ...

Calimero377
Sep 16th, 2004, 07:12 PM
hey what % of Slam winners have been black? I bet that percentage is pretty low as well. :D I figure if they can beat those odds they can beat any odds...:wavey:


And they beat the odds that girls called "Venus" and "Serena" never ever had won slams before!

ToeTag
Sep 16th, 2004, 07:16 PM
Graf was responsible for half of the old-timers (= older than Serena today) wins in 88-04HUH.She was 19 in 88!You consider 19 an old timer,eh....and didn't she retire in 99?
After all her slams wins would have been reduced had Moni been around!! :)

Rocketta
Sep 16th, 2004, 07:28 PM
And they beat the odds that girls called "Venus" and "Serena" never ever had won slams before!
exactly so what are you worried for? :shrug:

Calimero377
Sep 16th, 2004, 07:31 PM
HUH.She was 19 in 88!You consider 19 an old timer,eh....and didn't she retire in 99?
After all her slams wins would have been reduced had Moni been around!! :)


What about "Graf was responsible for half of the slams 23plus-year-old players won in 88-04" didn't sink in?

BTW, Moni won 2 of her 9 slams with Graf sidelined (= 22 %).
And Graf won 6 of her slams with Moni sidelined (= 27 %).
Big deal ....

:wavey:

Calimero377
Sep 16th, 2004, 07:34 PM
exactly so what are you worried for? :shrug:


Beating all those odds doesn't mean that you continue beating all odds.
The odds tell me that you won't beat the odds all the time.

;)

Stamp Paid
Sep 16th, 2004, 07:41 PM
They're already in the Hall of Fame whether they never win another title again. So the success that they have had is more than satisfactory, even if they never won a slam again.

RVD
Sep 16th, 2004, 07:48 PM
Serena will be 23 years old next week, Venus is already 24 years 3 months.

Since 1988 (when the Evertilova era came to an end) only about 30 % of slam winners were 23 or older.
And only 20 % were older than Venus today.

:eek:Calimero377, clearly you are attempting to pose a question. For the sake of expediency and to avoid misinterpretation...
...What is that question.

TartarVicario
Sep 16th, 2004, 07:51 PM
Come on Vee & Rena!


http://images.sportsline.com/u/ap/photos/WXS108091317_lower.jpg
Venus, left, and her sister Serena Williams are all smiles while shooting a public service announcement for World Children's Day at McDonald's benefitting Ronald McDonald House Charities on Monday, Sept. 13, 2004, in New York. World Childrens' Day at McDonald's, which will be celebrated Nov. 18-20, has raised $27 million in the past two years to benefit Ronald McDonald House Charities and other children's causes around the world. (AP Photo/McDonalds, Henny Ray Abrams)

"Sluggy"
Sep 16th, 2004, 07:54 PM
You know when people say the sisters ages i almost cant believe it. It always seems like the ride will just keep going and going, and nothing can fill the gap when the sisters leave.

bandabou
Sep 16th, 2004, 08:00 PM
serena is now only one year removed from the period she totally dominated the tour. She probably will never be as good again, but I don´t think the tour has improved so much that Serena can´t win majors anymore. Just on the serve alone she will always be a contender.

Venus, Venus...she´s a bit more problematic as her recent results at the majors have been dissapointing...but if she can sort out that forehand and make it at least a rallying shot to set up the backhand, she should regain the old time glory too.

darrinbaker00
Sep 16th, 2004, 08:03 PM
They're already in the Hall of Fame whether they never win another title again. So the success that they have had is more than satisfactory, even if they never won a slam again.
Speak for yourself, my friend. I want the sisters to win EVERYTHING until they retire. ;)

vogus
Sep 16th, 2004, 08:04 PM
And a healthy 28 yr old Californian is the best player on tour right now....
and when was the last time this "healthy 28 yr old Californian" won a GS title? Back in January 2000, when she was, let's see, 23 years old. When's the next time she'll win a GS title? Most likely never. You just proved the thread starter's point.

Crazy_Fool
Sep 16th, 2004, 08:07 PM
Things have moved on...neither will dominate again. Serena will still be contending for the majors and win a few more, but Venus is just going the same way Hingis did...

Calimero377
Sep 16th, 2004, 08:07 PM
She wasn't "23 plus" until 1992 not 88-04.
So 88-91 or 99-04 has nothing to do with: "Graf was responsible for half of the slams 23plus-year-old players won in 88-04"!! :rolleyes:


In 88-04 twenty-one of 68 slam tournaments were won by players who were 23 years old or older.
In this time frame Graf won 12 tournaments when she was 23 years old or older.
So Graf won 12 of the 21 slams in 88-04 that were won by players who were 23 years old or older. And so she "was responsible for (more than) half of the slams 23plus-year-old players won in 88-04".

O Canada ......
:rolleyes:

DeDe4925
Sep 16th, 2004, 08:10 PM
Serena will be 23 years old next week, Venus is already 24 years 3 months.

Since 1988 (when the Evertilova era came to an end) only about 30 % of slam winners were 23 or older.
And only 20 % were older than Venus today.

:eek:
It hasn't run out yet. :p

Calimero377
Sep 16th, 2004, 08:14 PM
They're already in the Hall of Fame whether they never win another title again. So the success that they have had is more than satisfactory, even if they never won a slam again.


If you think it is about gaining entrance into the U.S. HoF in tennis you are right of course. So the success Jana Novotna or Pam Shriver have had is more than satisfactory ....

BTW, don't get me wrong - I hope that the Williams sisters will win more slams, especially Venus. And I like Serena since she spoke of Steffi Graf at the I.W. victory ceremony as "Miss Graf". :worship:

Nevertheless it is very amazing IMO that 70 % of all slams were won by players younger than 23 years.

doby
Sep 16th, 2004, 08:17 PM
:rolleyes:

I'm sure they'll be fine,but if you're so worried about their career's maybe you should send them a card or something?If second rate Graf can win slams after certain age surely Williams can.

vogus
Sep 16th, 2004, 08:21 PM
Slam winners age 26 and older in the last 15 years (90's and 00's):

Novotna (1)
Sanchez (1)
Graf (7) (would definitely have been fewer without Gunther Parsche incident)
Navster (1)

So in a Gunther Parsche-free world something like 55 out the last 60 GS titles should have been won by players 25 or younger. Venus and Serena don't strike me as Navratilova/Martinez types who are going to keep grinding it out into their late 20s and early 30s. I mean, i don't think the Williams are done, but i also don't think anybody is arguing with the idea that V&S have both peaked and are on their way down.

bandabou
Sep 16th, 2004, 08:23 PM
It´s an interesting question cali....I know what you mean and of course history has proven that indeed after you reach the ages the sisters are now, that not many people have won majors. I hope that the sisters could join the select few. I think, Serena for sure, has the game to keep contending and winning majors....

Venus needs to do a bit more of work, but she too can...

Pengwin
Sep 16th, 2004, 08:27 PM
Race doesn't affect quality of Tennis, Age does though.

Calimero377
Sep 16th, 2004, 08:28 PM
It hasn't run out yet. :p


Graf won slams as a 17 year-old and as a 26-29 year-old.
But the question lingers: Do Venus & Serena have the "Steffi stuff"?

darrinbaker00
Sep 16th, 2004, 08:28 PM
I mean, i don't think the Williams are done, but i also don't think anybody is arguing with the idea that V&S have both peaked and are on their way down.
No offense, but I am vehemently arguing with that idea. In fact, I'm 100 percent convinced that we have yet to see Venus and Serena's best tennis, although I'm only 60-65 percent convinced that they want to show it to us. ;)

*Karen*
Sep 16th, 2004, 08:29 PM
We had the Williams era. Now it's the Henin/Russian era. They've proved they're great players, won lots of slams. Who cares if the don't win anymore?

bandabou
Sep 16th, 2004, 08:34 PM
We had the Williams era. Now it's the Henin/Russian era. They've proved they're great players, won lots of slams. Who cares if the don't win anymore?


henin era?! Hmm.....gotta see her rebound from that mono first.

bandabou
Sep 16th, 2004, 08:35 PM
Graf won slams as a 17 year-old and as a 26-29 year-old.
But the question lingers: Do Venus & Serena have the "Steffi stuff"?


Serena got the first one covered: She won a major as a 17 year old...now it´s the second part she´s to take care of.

Calimero377
Sep 16th, 2004, 08:35 PM
Slam winners age 26 and older in the last 15 years (90's and 00's):

Novotna (1)
Sanchez (1)
Graf (7) (would definitely have been fewer without Gunther Parsche incident)
Navster (1)

So in a Gunther Parsche-free world something like 55 out the last 60 GS titles should have been won by players 25 or younger. Venus and Serena don't strike me as Navratilova/Martinez types who are going to keep grinding it out into their late 20s and early 30s. I mean, i don't think the Williams are done, but i also don't think anybody is arguing with the idea that V&S have both peaked and are on their way down.


Graf became 26 years old on June 14, 1995.
She went on to win Wimbledon 3 weeks later without Seles competing.
Would she have won with Seles in the draw?
Big question!
I'll give you a hint: Add up how often Seles advanced to the semis or further there ....

Next slam was USO 95.
Seles was back with a vengeance. Didn't lose a set at Canadian Open two weeks earlier or until the final at Flushing Meadows. Until she met Graf there .....

So the only slam Graf won when 26plus years old & Seles wasn't in the draw was Wimbledon.

Ehm, your point being?

:lol:

Crazy_Fool
Sep 16th, 2004, 08:37 PM
We had the Williams era. Now it's the Henin/Russian era. They've proved they're great players, won lots of slams. Who cares if the don't win anymore?
Their fans, people involved in tennis, haters, lovers, whatever else. Pretty much everyone cares one way or another ;)

bandabou
Sep 16th, 2004, 08:41 PM
Their fans, people involved in tennis, haters, lovers, whatever else. Pretty much everyone cares one way or another ;)


:lol: No kidding....and about how many players can this be said?!

KV
Sep 16th, 2004, 08:45 PM
What about "Graf was responsible for half of the slams 23plus-year-old players won in 88-04" didn't sink in?

BTW, Moni won 2 of her 9 slams with Graf sidelined (= 22 %).
And Graf won 6 of her slams with Moni sidelined (= 27 %).
Big deal ....

:wavey:You can say it differently Navratilova won more GS's at 23+
http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/playerbio.asp?PlayerID=140007

Stamp Paid
Sep 16th, 2004, 08:48 PM
Hey, did ya'll know that Serena Williams and Christina Milian were born on the same day in the same year?! http://wtaworld.com/images/smilies/lick.gifhttp://wtaworld.com/images/smilies/drool.gif

darrinbaker00
Sep 16th, 2004, 08:52 PM
Hey, did ya'll know that Serena Williams and Christina Milian were born on the same day in the same year?! http://wtaworld.com/images/smilies/lick.gifhttp://wtaworld.com/images/smilies/drool.gif
I did not know that. That would explain why.....why.....actually, it wouldn't explain anything. ;)

Volcana
Sep 16th, 2004, 08:53 PM
Serena will be 23 years old next week, Venus is already 24 years 3 months.

Since 1988 (when the Evertilova era came to an end) only about 30 % of slam winners were 23 or older.
And only 20 % were older than Venus today.

:eek:Is time running out? No. Are the odds of winning a slam lessening? Of course. Every year brings more good players onto the tour. But time isn't running out til there are players on the tour you can't beat. Serena can beat anybody, and Venus can beat anybody who isn't Serena. The problem, of course, is that other players can now beat THEM.

thelittlestelf
Sep 16th, 2004, 09:04 PM
Oh God. If I see another Williams is over thread I am pointing a gun to my computer.

Jaime Bahena
Sep 16th, 2004, 09:12 PM
hey what % of Slam winners have been black? I bet that percentage is pretty low as well. :D I figure if they can beat those odds they can beat any odds...:wavey:

Which begs the question? How many Russian born players have won Slams? I bet that percentage is also pretty low as well. I figure if they can beat those odds, they can beat any odds (sorry about plagiarizing).

bandabou
Sep 16th, 2004, 09:13 PM
Is time running out? No. Are the odds of wining a slam lessening. Of course. Every year brings more good players onto the tour. But time isn't running out til there are players on the tour you can't beat. Serena can beat anybody, and Venus can beat anybody who isn't Serena. The problem, of course, is that other players can now beat THEM.


THAT is the tricky part.

Jaime Bahena
Sep 16th, 2004, 09:13 PM
Serena will win another slam next year don't worry.

And if Venus gets that forehand straight she will win at least 2 slams next year.

;) :D :lol:
What if Venus never gets her forehand straight? Does that mean that she will never win another Slam?

Crazy_Fool
Sep 16th, 2004, 09:24 PM
What if Venus never gets her forehand straight? Does that mean that she will never win another Slam?
Actually i thought it was not too bad against Davenport at the US Open, but still broke down under pressure. It not consistent enough to win a slam right now, so no she won't unless she manages to fix it.

bandabou
Sep 16th, 2004, 09:28 PM
Actually both Serena and Venus have to work on their forehands, but the difference between them is that Serena ALWAYS, ALWAYS can count on her serve ( well unless it´s a final of course, but that´s another matter), but Venus doesn´t have that luxury...lately with Venus if she doesn´t hit a 1st serve, she´s cooked.....and that coped with the forehand, is too much.

tennisfan22
Sep 16th, 2004, 09:30 PM
why are Graf fans always starting shit about all other players these days ? I guess like your fave you'll should retire too :rolleyes:

udachi Elena
Sep 16th, 2004, 09:49 PM
I think if either of them would like to remain at the top, they better take Tracy's advice and start looking for a forehand coach

AlmightyPharaoh
Sep 16th, 2004, 09:55 PM
Serena and Venus Williams are in a class all by themselves. You cannot draw comparissons because they are truly "one" of a kind. No one has done more for tennis as a sport. No man, no woman. No other players have sold more tickets, but more butts into the stands, or more racquets into the hands of children. They were given a sport that was fading into the sunset and they breathed invigorating life into it. Always stylish, classy and formidable opponents, they are the best thing to have happened to the game. I know everytime they step onto the court, Althea and Arthur are beaming from above. Serena and Venus have many more Grand Slam titles and Tier 1 events to win. Just you wait and see. Count them out if you will, but believe me when I tell you that Serena loves seeing that "No. 1" next to her name too much to give up now. WILLIAMS4LIFE.


I am annointing myself the OFFICIAL PHARAOH OF THE ROYAL COURT.

BOOYAH!

bandabou
Sep 16th, 2004, 10:07 PM
Serena and Venus Williams are in a class all by themselves. You cannot draw comparissons because they are truly "one" of a kind. No one has done more for tennis as a sport. No man, no woman. No other players have sold more tickets, but more butts into the stands, or more racquets into the hands of children. They were given a sport that was fading into the sunset and they breathed invigorating life into it. Always stylish, classy and formidable opponents, they are the best thing to have happened to the game. I know everytime they step onto the court, Althea and Arthur are beaming from above. Serena and Venus have many more Grand Slam titles and Tier 1 events to win. Just you wait and see. Count them out if you will, but believe me when I tell you that Serena loves seeing that "No. 1" next to her name too much to give up now. WILLIAMS4LIFE.


I am annointing myself the OFFICIAL PHARAOH OF THE ROYAL COURT.

BOOYAH!


word!

udachi Elena
Sep 16th, 2004, 10:10 PM
i agree the williams sisters have done a lot for the game, however, i do not believe they are the whole game. Seats sold even with the girls gone.

pigam
Sep 16th, 2004, 10:13 PM
Serena and Venus Williams are in a class all by themselves. You cannot draw comparissons because they are truly "one" of a kind. No one has done more for tennis as a sport. No man, no woman. No other players have sold more tickets, but more butts into the stands, or more racquets into the hands of children. They were given a sport that was fading into the sunset and they breathed invigorating life into it. Always stylish, classy and formidable opponents, they are the best thing to have happened to the game. I know everytime they step onto the court, Althea and Arthur are beaming from above. Serena and Venus have many more Grand Slam titles and Tier 1 events to win. Just you wait and see. Count them out if you will, but believe me when I tell you that Serena loves seeing that "No. 1" next to her name too much to give up now. WILLIAMS4LIFE.


I am annointing myself the OFFICIAL PHARAOH OF THE ROYAL COURT.

BOOYAH!

:scared: :bolt: ;) :lol:
I don't know about this part: "No one has done more for tennis as a sport. No man, no woman."... :unsure: . Someone like Billy Jean King did a lot for (womens)tennis too. If it wasn't for her there might not have been a tour with all the prize money there is today (but lets not go into that discussion ;) ).
Serena and Venus mean a lot to tennis and they will mean a lot in the future. Whoever thinks they're 'over' is delirious...

CJ07
Sep 16th, 2004, 10:13 PM
Actually both Serena and Venus have to work on their forehands, but the difference between them is that Serena ALWAYS, ALWAYS can count on her serve ( well unless it´s a final of course, but that´s another matter), but Venus doesn´t have that luxury...lately with Venus if she doesn´t hit a 1st serve, she´s cooked.....and that coped with the forehand, is too much.
watch Venus's match again.

Did you not see her second serves? They were beyond spectacular. She won 58% of her second serve points..against Lindsay...in a LOSS.

So that's fine.

Also while she made I think 25 forehand errors, she also hit around 25 forehand winners. So at least its even.

Venus is fine. Just let her practice and be healthy.

It's not like she went into a time warp back to 98

bandabou
Sep 16th, 2004, 10:19 PM
watch Venus's match again.

Did you not see her second serves? They were beyond spectacular. She won 58% of her second serve points..against Lindsay...in a LOSS.

So that's fine.

Also while she made I think 25 forehand errors, she also hit around 25 forehand winners. So at least its even.

Venus is fine. Just let her practice and be healthy.

It's not like she went into a time warp back to 98


O.k...but it just seems like her game falters just on the biggest stages. Come on, Vee..you can do better than just one QF at the majors.

LindsayRocks89
Sep 16th, 2004, 10:21 PM
i have no doubt that both Serena and Venus will win more grandslams. They both just have to dedicate themselves a little more and fix technique problems and they will be fine, i really do believe they could even raise the bar once again and dominate the way they once did, Go Venus and Serena :worship:

vogus
Sep 16th, 2004, 11:26 PM
Cali, as you well know, the Seles that returned to the tour in '95 was not nearly as good as the pre-Gunther Parsche version of Seles who dominated every GS she played in except for one tournament - Wimbly '92. Of the six GS titles Graf won in '95-96, at least four would have gone to the "old" Seles.

call up Gunther, and he'll tell you the same thing.

Steffifan
Sep 16th, 2004, 11:28 PM
I dont think the Williams will not win more slams period they are both talented enough to win more if they work harder & Stuff look at Jen she won 2 Slams when she 25 in 2001 & 1 in 2002 Go Jen Go!:)

vettipooh
Sep 17th, 2004, 12:35 AM
How is time running out for Williams x 2 ? they have already accomplised SO much more than the rest of the top 15. At 23 and 24, they own 6 and 4 slams, and over 50 titles, including an olympic gold in singles and doubles. Can't ask for much more.Now let me see.........
Momo-25......no slam.
Petrova-22....no slam.
Jcap-28........3
Kim-21.........no slam
Juju-22........3 and 1 gold
Lindsay........3 and 1 gold
Sugyama-29.....no slam
Myskina-23......1 slam
Dementieva-23 next mth....no slam
Schnyder-26......no slam
Bovina-21.........no slam
These guys better catch up with time.....like Williams times 2 did!!!!!!!:rolleyes:

Black Mamba.
Sep 17th, 2004, 12:37 AM
As long as they can still run fast, hit hard, and still want to play they have plenty of time.

tennnisfannn
Sep 17th, 2004, 01:15 AM
well myskina won a slam at 23, dementieva is playing her bset tennis at 23 too. According to your age logic, Justine only has one more shot at a slam before she goes over the bump.
The so called williams slump is injury related, it isn't as if they just fell over the wagon kinda like myskina, maria and a few others are. There is more room for slams to be won by both Venus and serena.
The question still remains, did players raise their level to compete against the williams or did the williams drop their level due to extended absense. Besides the russians the usual top tenners like lindsay, amelie, jen didn't even make the finals despite beating them along the way.

Hant Hant
Sep 17th, 2004, 01:24 AM
Lindsay and Jennifer got slams at 23+. That was recent. Serena and Venus can get more slams. They need to play better against each other. If you really want it, you can defeat your sister. I mean, it is not like your sister will hate you if you win a slam against her.

DeDe4925
Sep 17th, 2004, 01:28 AM
Oh God. If I see another Williams is over thread I am pointing a gun to my computer.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Black Mamba.
Sep 17th, 2004, 01:30 AM
Wow, one subpar year based on their standards and all of a sudden folks act like they can't win slams anymore.

dreamgoddess099
Sep 17th, 2004, 01:54 AM
The question still remains, did players raise their level to compete against the williams or did the williams drop their level due to extended absense?
:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

That is the question all day long! We are not seeing Venus and Serena at their highest levels. The confidence of the tour has risen when playing the sisters only because they know the sisters are in a weaker state than before they left tour. WHY DID IT TAKE THE WILLIAMS' ABSENCE FROM THE TOUR TO RAISE THE TOURS CONFIDENCE THAT THEY COULD BEAT THEM? Are we really seeing an increase in dept on the tour, or just a bunch of opportunists pouncing on what many consider the best chance to beat a Williams while they still aren't at their best? Anyway, the so-called increase in dept of the woman's game can't be that true, otherwise people still wouldn't feel the need to help opponents of the Williams to beat them.

Diesel
Sep 17th, 2004, 02:06 AM
The question still remains, did players raise their level to compete against the williams or did the williams drop their level due to extended absense. Besides the russians the usual top tenners like lindsay, amelie, jen didn't even make the finals despite beating them along the way.

It's funny because this idea that the other players raised their games to compete against Serena and Venus all happened when Venus and Serena were out of competitive play with injuries :lol:

Janet
Sep 17th, 2004, 02:27 AM
Does not really matter if they don't win a slam again before they leave the game of tennis they alrealy in the history BOOK...............lots of player has not done what they have done.........and for that they already accomplish alot on the tennis court.................

hotandspicey
Sep 17th, 2004, 03:19 AM
If time has run out for them, what does that say about the others???

Stamp Paid
Sep 17th, 2004, 03:54 AM
Speak for yourself, my friend. I want the sisters to win EVERYTHING until they retire. ;)
But they play tennis for themselves, not to give their fans bragging rights. If they are satisfied, I am satiafied.http://wtaworld.com/ubb/smile.gif

bandabou
Sep 17th, 2004, 08:19 AM
Just have to finish shaking off the rust and they´ll be fine.

Aquanetta
Sep 17th, 2004, 08:26 AM
Serena will be 23 years old next week, Venus is already 24 years 3 months.

Since 1988 (when the Evertilova era came to an end) only about 30 % of slam winners were 23 or older.
And only 20 % were older than Venus today.

:eek:

Don't say that please! Now I'm worried about Clijsters and Dementieva. They may never win a Slam based on your statistics. That Myskina got lucky, though.

Sam L
Sep 17th, 2004, 10:58 AM
And a healthy 28 yr old Californian is the best player on tour right now....
No she's not.

Sam L
Sep 17th, 2004, 11:00 AM
Graf won slams as a 17 year-old and as a 26-29 year-old.
But the question lingers: Do Venus & Serena have the "Steffi stuff"? By "Steffi stuff" do you mean, do they have fans crazy enough to go stabbing their rivals? :confused:

DeDe4925
Sep 17th, 2004, 05:55 PM
:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

That is the question all day long! We are not seeing Venus and Serena at their highest levels. The confidence of the tour has risen when playing the sisters only because they know the sisters are in a weaker state than before they left tour. WHY DID IT TAKE THE WILLIAMS' ABSENCE FROM THE TOUR TO RAISE THE TOURS CONFIDENCE THAT THEY COULD BEAT THEM? Are we really seeing an increase in dept on the tour, or just a bunch of opportunists pouncing on what many consider the best chance to beat a Williams while they still aren't at their best? Anyway, the so-called increase in dept of the woman's game can't be that true, otherwise people still wouldn't feel the need to help opponents of the Williams to beat them.
:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:
Ain't that the truth!!!

Jen'sFan
Sep 17th, 2004, 06:02 PM
The Williams time is over now. We have already seen the best of Venus now she can't even get past the QF of a GS. Serena may win 1 or 2 more but thats it, their time is up. Just like all players, you can't win forever.

DeDe4925
Sep 17th, 2004, 08:18 PM
The Williams time is over now. We have already seen the best of Venus now she can't even get past the QF of a GS. Serena may win 1 or 2 more but thats it, their time is up. Just like all players, you can't win forever.
Then why do you continue to root for Jen, because she needs the officials to help her beat a Williams. :lol: So, what does that say about her? :tape:

Seles-Sharapova
Sep 17th, 2004, 08:24 PM
Both Williams will still be there contending for all the Grand Slams. they are far from done, its just there is a lot more competition. No one will be dominating though!

*Karen*
Sep 17th, 2004, 08:30 PM
I've always said I don't rate Venus as a tennis legend She's good but I can't see her ever winning another slam. I think she'll always get to the quarters but not any furhter. With Serena I can imagine that she might one day win another slam but it's very doubtful. The tour will survive without them. It managed the last year. I think Serena's abscence was good for tennis. Before you always assumed Serena would win. Now you just don't have a clue who's going to win.

Crazy_Fool
Sep 17th, 2004, 08:33 PM
Venus has too many faults in her game in this day and age to compete. what seperated her before was power and movement, but players have caught up now.

Calimero377
Sep 17th, 2004, 09:01 PM
By "Steffi stuff" do you mean, do they have fans crazy enough to go stabbing their rivals? :confused:


What about

"Graf became 26 years old on June 14, 1995.
She went on to win Wimbledon 3 weeks later without Seles competing.
Would she have won with Seles in the draw?
Big question!
I'll give you a hint: Add up how often Seles advanced to the semis or further there ....

Next slam was USO 95.
Seles was back with a vengeance. Didn't lose a set at Canadian Open two weeks earlier or until the final at Flushing Meadows. Until she met Graf there .....

So the only slam Graf won when 26plus years old & Seles wasn't in the draw was Wimbledon.

Ehm, your point being?"


you didn't get?

DeDe4925
Sep 17th, 2004, 09:05 PM
I've always said I don't rate Venus as a tennis legend She's good but I can't see her ever winning another slam. I think she'll always get to the quarters but not any furhter. With Serena I can imagine that she might one day win another slam but it's very doubtful. The tour will survive without them. It managed the last year. I think Serena's abscence was good for tennis. Before you always assumed Serena would win. Now you just don't have a clue who's going to win.
There's no question that Venus and Serena will win another slam once the rust wears off from their year off, like Lindsay. What's Jennifer's excuse? Serena made it to a major final this year. Jennifer can't get past the semis. Both Venus and Serena won a title this year. When was the last time Jennifer won a title let alone a major? 2001?

Calimero377
Sep 17th, 2004, 09:06 PM
why are Graf fans always starting shit about all other players these days ? I guess like your fave you'll should retire too :rolleyes:


What about those stats you didn't like?
Are they "shit", those stats?
Is it "shit", that only 20 % of all slam winners in 88-04 were older than Venus is today?
Or that only 30 % of all slam winners in 88-04 were older than Serena is today?

Don't blame me. Blame the slam winners. Blame reality .....

Or have another look at it:
If Serena wins 30 % of all the slams in the next 4 years that is about 5 slams for her. Would not be bad, eh?

Calimero377
Sep 17th, 2004, 09:25 PM
Cali, as you well know, the Seles that returned to the tour in '95 was not nearly as good as the pre-Gunther Parsche version of Seles who dominated every GS she played in except for one tournament - Wimbly '92. Of the six GS titles Graf won in '95-96, at least four would have gone to the "old" Seles.

call up Gunther, and he'll tell you the same thing.


Vogi, as you well know Seles from summer 95 until winter 96 was at least as good as in 91/92. Have a look at her results in 95/96:

DU MAURIER OPEN (Toronto, Canada)
Dates: 14th-20th August 1995
Kimberly Po 6-0 6-3
Nathalie Tauziat 6-2 6-2
ANKE HUBER 6-3 6-2
GABRIELA SABATINI 6-1 6-0
Amanda Coetzer 6-0 6-1


US OPEN (Flushing Meadow, New York, United States of America)
Dates: 28th August - 10th September 1995
Ruxandra Dragomir 6-3 6-1
Erika De Lone 6-2 6-1
Yone Kamio 6-1 6-1
ANKE HUBER 6-1 6-4
JANA NOVOTNA 7-6 6-2
CONCHITA MARTINEZ 6-2 6-2
STEFFI GRAF 6-7 6-0 3-6


ADIDAS INTERNATIONAL (Sydney, Australia)
Dates: 8th-14th January 1996

Dominique Monami 6-1 6-2
Mariaan de Swardt 6-3 6-2
BRENDA SCHULTZ-McCARTH 7-6 6-4
LINDSAY DAVENPORT 4-6 7-6 6-3


AUSTRALIAN OPEN (Melbourne, Australia)
Dates: 15th-28th January 1996

Janet Lee (Q) 6-3 6-0
Katarina Studenikova 6-1 6-1
Julie Halard-Decugis 7-5 6-0
NAOKO SAWAMATSU 6-1 6-3
IVA MAJOLI 6-1 6-2
CHANDA RUBIN 6-7 6-1 7-5
ANKE HUBER 6-4 6-1


23 matches, 22-1 wins/losses, 45-4 sets. 3 tournament wins, one final.
One slam win, on slam final with a 3-set loss to Steffi Graf.

"At least 4 of 6" slams Graf won in 95/96 would have gone to Seles?

Wimbledon 95 or 96? Based on Seles reaching more than the quarters at Wimbledon exactly ONCE? :lol: :lol: :lol:

USO 95 or 96? Based on Seles never winning a hard-court match against Graf in her whole career? Based on Seles's two losses in 95/96 against Graf in USO finals? :lol: :lol: :lol:

FO 95 or 96? Based on a 74-73 on points-played in 90 against a scandal-plagued Graf? Or based on a 10-8-in-3rd-set squeaker win in 92? Or on Seles being 3-3 against Graf on clay? Or on her loss to a 29-year-old Graf at FO 99? Based on Seles - being injured - losing to Novotna at FO 96? :lol: :lol: :lol:

You don't mind when I call you "Dumbo", vogi, do you?

:lol:

bandabou
Sep 17th, 2004, 09:33 PM
I think at the FO´s she would have had a good chance. Didn´t she have to rally against ASV to win one of them?! I remember that ASV served twice for the match in ´95 if I´m not mistaken...and wasn´t the other against MJF?! I think if ASV could have tested a PEAK Graf ( your words!), then I think Monica would have clearly stand a pretty good chance of actually winning.

Calimero377
Sep 17th, 2004, 09:40 PM
well myskina won a slam at 23, dementieva is playing her bset tennis at 23 too. According to your age logic, Justine only has one more shot at a slam before she goes over the bump.
The so called williams slump is injury related, it isn't as if they just fell over the wagon kinda like myskina, maria and a few others are. There is more room for slams to be won by both Venus and serena.
The question still remains, did players raise their level to compete against the williams or did the williams drop their level due to extended absense. Besides the russians the usual top tenners like lindsay, amelie, jen didn't even make the finals despite beating them along the way.


What about "20 %" or "30 %" didn't sink in?

Venus' and Serena's level fell of course.
Nothing unusual when you get older (= being 22+).
Austin, Sabatini, Seles, Hingis, Martinez, Majoli, Pierce didn't win slams with 23+ any more.
Davenport won her last slam with 23. Myskina too.
Mandlikova with 24.
Capriati with 25.

I don't think Venus will have a chance at AO or FO 05.
And at Wimby 05 she will be 25 already .....

Maybe Serena can win some more slams. Maybe because the opposition is weak nowadays (exception being Henin).


:wavey:

Calimero377
Sep 17th, 2004, 09:43 PM
There's no question that Venus and Serena will win another slam once the rust wears off from their year off, like Lindsay. What's Jennifer's excuse? ...

Lack of talent?

Crazy_Fool
Sep 17th, 2004, 11:07 PM
Lack of talent?
lol never :tape:

Calimero377
Sep 18th, 2004, 08:22 AM
I think at the FO´s she would have had a good chance. Didn´t she have to rally against ASV to win one of them?! I remember that ASV served twice for the match in ´95 if I´m not mistaken...and wasn´t the other against MJF?! I think if ASV could have tested a PEAK Graf ( your words!), then I think Monica would have clearly stand a pretty good chance of actually winning.


ASV was bageled in the 3rd in 1995 .....

In 1996 Graf had to fight hard, won 10-8 in 3rd set.
But Seles was in the draw, lost to Novotna.
Oh I know, not the same player anymore ("NTSPA"-syndrome). After Seles's transcendant performances in her first 23 matches in 95/96 (22-1 win/loss, 45-4 sets) suddenly "PTSD" (a.k.a. "NTSPA") settled in.

:lol:

hingis-seles
Sep 18th, 2004, 09:19 AM
RG 1996, Seles was injured. Infact, the week before RG was her first tournament since Tokyo. She has been sidelined for months because of that injury.

Seles reached the Wimbledon quarterfinals in 1992, 1990, 1998, 2000, 2002. And at RG 1996, she led Graf 3-2 in head-to-head matches on clay. It became 3-3 after the 1999 semifinal.

This is in response to your posts on this page.

Calimero377
Sep 18th, 2004, 09:35 AM
RG 1996, Seles was injured. Infact, the week before RG was her first tournament since Tokyo. She has been sidelined for months because of that injury. ....

The stab injury of 1993?
:confused:


.....
Seles reached the Wimbledon quarterfinals in 1992, 1990, 1998, 2000, 2002. ...

Perhaps my "further than the quarters only ONCE" was bad English?
So you couldn't understand what I meant with "further"?


.....
And at RG 1996, she led Graf 3-2 in head-to-head matches on clay. It became 3-3 after the 1999 semifinal.
...

When Seles was 25 years old and Graf a few weeks before her retirement.


.....
This is in response to your posts on this page.


Thank you for pointing this out. Otherwise I really wouldn't have noticed.

*Karen*
Sep 18th, 2004, 10:56 AM
There's no question that Venus and Serena will win another slam once the rust wears off from their year off, like Lindsay. What's Jennifer's excuse? Serena made it to a major final this year. Jennifer can't get past the semis. Both Venus and Serena won a title this year. When was the last time Jennifer won a title let alone a major? 2001?

Since the thread was titled, "Are Venus and Serena past it", I didn't know I had to discuss Jen's chances.

2003- Jen's last title
2002- Jen's last slam (more recent than Venus's last)

Do I think Jen will win a slam?
I doubt it but I'm still hoping.

Do I think she has a better chance than the Williams'?
Yes I do.

That's my opinion. People can argue all they like but I won't change my mind.

Stamp Paid
Sep 18th, 2004, 11:30 AM
Since the thread was titled, "Are Venus and Serena past it", I didn't know I had to discuss Jen's chances.

2003- Jen's last title
2002- Jen's last slam (more recent than Venus's last)

Do I think Jen will win a slam?
I doubt it but I'm still hoping.

Do I think she has a better chance than the Williams'?
Yes I do.

That's my opinion. People can argue all they like but I won't change my mind.
A fool defined, ladies and gentlemen.

bandabou
Sep 18th, 2004, 11:43 AM
ASV was bageled in the 3rd in 1995 .....

In 1996 Graf had to fight hard, won 10-8 in 3rd set.
But Seles was in the draw, lost to Novotna.
Oh I know, not the same player anymore ("NTSPA"-syndrome). After Seles's transcendant performances in her first 23 matches in 95/96 (22-1 win/loss, 45-4 sets) suddenly "PTSD" (a.k.a. "NTSPA") settled in.

:lol:


Nah, I forgot about ´96...so it´s cool. What you think?! Monica would have stood a chance in ´95?!

bandabou
Sep 18th, 2004, 11:46 AM
Since the thread was titled, "Are Venus and Serena past it", I didn't know I had to discuss Jen's chances.

2003- Jen's last title
2002- Jen's last slam (more recent than Venus's last)

Do I think Jen will win a slam?
I doubt it but I'm still hoping.

Do I think she has a better chance than the Williams'?
Yes I do.

That's my opinion. People can argue all they like but I won't change my mind.


Of course you´ll think so, because I doubt you´re a realistic fan. Jennifer isn´t even winning titles, the sisters for all their slumps already managed to win one by serena and two by Venus. Serena has been in a major final this year, Jennifer hasn´t been in one in two years...

I think of the threesome: Serena has the best chance and then Venus and Jennifer...Venus first, because she´s at least winning titles.

Calimero377
Sep 18th, 2004, 12:27 PM
Nah, I forgot about ´96...so it´s cool. What you think?! Monica would have stood a chance in ´95?!

Of course she would have had a chance.
Bandy, I ALWAYS said that Seles would have had her chances in the slams she missed in 93/95.

But we don't know whether she would not have had a injury anyway as so many top players have these days and as she, Seles, has had in the last years anyway.
We don't know whether she would have won 6 matches in a row to reach all the slams' finals. What we do know is that she had a lot of close calls even in her best years 90/92 before the finals. And we do know that she bombed out before the finals regularily in 96-03.

But she probably would have reached a LOT of finals in 93-95 without The Stabbing, perhaps 7 or 8 of the 10.
To say more is retarded. That she reached 8 consecutive slam finals in 91/93 is no evidence that she most probably would have made 9 or 10 of the next 10 finals too. It's the same as saying "Hey, the Russians won 3 consecutive slams now. So they will win the next 3 as well!" So 7 or 8 for Seles is very, very optimistic.

In about 4 or 5 of these 7 or 8 slam finals in 93/95 Seles would have played Graf. Because we know Graf won 6 slams in Seles's absence.

How many would Seles have won and reduced Graf's 22-slam tally by this?

And THEN Graf's and Seles's Wimbledon records come into consideration.
And that Seles never beat Graf on fast U.S. hardcourts.
Or that they are 3-3 H2H on clay, that Seles won her 2 FOs against Graf in extremely hard-fought matches, that Graf was able to win FO even in 1999, beating Seles on the way.
And that Graf played perhaps her best slam ever at AO 94 (She herself said so back then).

I always conceded Seles 4 more slams in 93/95 and therefore acknowledged that Graf probably would have won 2 less, however.

But I'm convinced that without the 1990 Graf scandal Steffi would not have lost FO 90, Wimbledon 90, USO 90, AO 91, FO 91 and USO 91. I don't even talk of 1992 because the scandal was over in spring of 92 and Graf was digging herself out of her slump already.
Losing to a 16-year-old in FO 90, to GARRISON (!) at Wimbledon 90, to head-case Novotna on slow ReboundAce at AO 91, with 0-6 2-6 to ASV at FO 91 and to a 35-year-old Navi at USO 91 - I don't think that a Graf of 87/89 would have been able to do all that.
Even if we acknowledge that great runs as Steffi's in 88/89 don't last forever it is safe to say that Graf would have won at LEAST 2 or 3 more slams in 90/91 without that scandal. A scandal foreigners probably can't evaluate properly because they weren't there where it happened. I was.

And - Graf was not responsible for her dad's scandal. It was the same lightning strike from the sky for her as Parche's knife was for Seles. Don't forget that Graf almost retired in winter 1991 (still being #1).


:wavey:

bandabou
Sep 18th, 2004, 12:48 PM
Of course she would have had a chance.
Bandy, I ALWAYS said that Seles would have had her chances in the slams she missed in 93/95.

But we don't know whether she would not have had a injury anyway as so many top players have these days and as she, Seles, has had in the last years anyway.
We don't know whether she would have won 6 matches in a row to reach all the slams' finals. What we do know is that she had a lot of close calls even in her best years 90/92 before the finals. And we do know that she bombed out before the finals regularily in 96-03.

But she probably would have reached a LOT of finals in 93-95 without The Stabbing, perhaps 7 or 8 of the 10.
To say more is retarded. That she reached 8 consecutive slam finals in 91/93 is no evidence that she most probably would have made 9 or 10 of the next 10 finals too. It's the same as saying "Hey, the Russians won 3 consecutive slams now. So they will win the next 3 as well!" So 7 or 8 for Seles is very, very optimistic.

In about 4 or 5 of these 7 or 8 slam finals in 93/95 Seles would have played Graf. Because we know Graf won 6 slams in Seles's absence.

How many would Seles have won and reduced Graf's 22-slam tally by this?

And THEN Graf's and Seles's Wimbledon records come into consideration.
And that Seles never beat Graf on fast U.S. hardcourts.
Or that they are 3-3 H2H on clay, that Seles won her 2 FOs against Graf in extremely hard-fought matches, that Graf was able to win FO even in 1999, beating Seles on the way.
And that Graf played perhaps her best slam ever at AO 94 (She herself said so back then).

I always conceded Seles 4 more slams in 93/95 and therefore acknowledged that Graf probably would have won 2 less, however.

But I'm convinced that without the 1990 Graf scandal Steffi would not have lost FO 90, Wimbledon 90, USO 90, AO 91, FO 91 and USO 91. I don't even talk of 1992 because the scandal was over in spring of 92 and Graf was digging herself out of her slump already.
Losing to a 16-year-old in FO 90, to GARRISON (!) at Wimbledon 90, to head-case Novotna on slow ReboundAce at AO 91, with 0-6 2-6 to ASV at FO 91 and to a 35-year-old Navi at USO 91 - I don't think that a Graf of 87/89 would have been able to do all that.
Even if we acknowledge that great runs as Steffi's in 88/89 don't last forever it is safe to say that Graf would have won at LEAST 2 or 3 more slams in 90/91 without that scandal. A scandal foreigners probably can't evaluate properly because they weren't there where it happened. I was.

And - Graf was not responsible for her dad's scandal. It was the same lightning strike from the sky for her as Parche's knife was for Seles. Don't forget that Graf almost retired in winter 1991 (still being #1).


:wavey:


o.k...sounds pretty sensible to me.

Stamp Paid
Sep 18th, 2004, 01:07 PM
o.k...sounds pretty sensible to me.
Bandy stop lying....you didnt read all of that! http://wtaworld.com/images/smilies/laugh.gifhttp://wtaworld.com/images/smilies/laugh.gifhttp://wtaworld.com/images/smilies/laugh.gifhttp://wtaworld.com/images/smilies/laugh.gifhttp://wtaworld.com/images/smilies/wavey.gif

*Karen*
Sep 18th, 2004, 01:38 PM
Of course you´ll think so, because I doubt you´re a realistic fan. Jennifer isn´t even winning titles, the sisters for all their slumps already managed to win one by serena and two by Venus. Serena has been in a major final this year, Jennifer hasn´t been in one in two years...

I think of the threesome: Serena has the best chance and then Venus and Jennifer...Venus first, because she´s at least winning titles.

I am being realistic. I said none of them will win another slam, and I included Jen when I said that. I said that Jen had the best chance out of the 3 of them because overall she's done better in the slams recently.

Stamp Paid
Sep 18th, 2004, 01:44 PM
I am being realistic. I said none of them will win another slam, and I included Jen when I said that. I said that Jen had the best chance out of the 3 of them because overall she's done better in the slams recently.
But as far as winning titles period, where is Jen?
Mental Strength, where is Jen?
Fitness? Shes better, but we know this is always an issue with Jen.
Age? I honestly believe that JCap is now what Monica Seles was from 1999-2002. She was always a contender, but it was just hard seeing her win 7 straight matches against the world's best and brightest. I think Jen is here now.

And since when did two SFs and a QF trump 2 QFs and a F? I think they're about even.

And how can you honestly NOT see Serena winning a slam? (Well, I guess as long as JCap stays in her quarter, huh? :D)

nari
Sep 18th, 2004, 01:51 PM
After all her slams wins would have been reduced had Moni been around!! :)
:angel: don't think so,it is possible that seles defeated others and then she was thrashed by steffi,then steffi would have more slams in 1994 :lick:
tennis statistics proved that steffi had advantage against seles though steffi was in slump against others.

*Karen*
Sep 18th, 2004, 01:58 PM
But as far as winning titles period, where is Jen?
Mental Strength, where is Jen?
Fitness? Shes better, but we know this is always an issue with Jen.
Age? I honestly believe that JCap is now what Monica Seles was from 1999-2002. She was always a contender, but it was just hard seeing her win 7 straight matches against the world's best and brightest. I think Jen is here now.

And since when did two SFs and a QF trump 2 QFs and a F? I think they're about even.

And how can you honestly NOT see Serena winning a slam? (Well, I guess as long as JCap stays in her quarter, huh? :D)

I honestly believe that Serena won't be able to win slams with Henin playing. By the start of 2005 Henin will be at her best. Henin's a different player than when Serena was still winning. Once she's fully fit no-one will stop her. Not even Serena. I like Serena. She's even on my sig. I just don't think she's a top 5 player anymore. I really don't think she'll win another slam. As for the Monica thing. Serena, Venus, Jen, Lindsay are all in the exact same position as she was.

Stamp Paid
Sep 18th, 2004, 02:05 PM
I honestly believe that Serena won't be able to win slams with Henin playing. By the start of 2005 Henin will be at her best. Henin's a different player than when Serena was still winning. Once she's fully fit no-one will stop her. Not even Serena. I like Serena. She's even on my sig. I just don't think she's a top 5 player anymore. I really don't think she'll win another slam. As for the Monica thing. Serena, Venus, Jen, Lindsay are all in the exact same position as she was. I think you give Henin too much credit. With her low first serve percentages, I think Serena can take her. I think we need to see a Serena-Henin harcourt match before we can conclusively say anything, I mean, JHH was losing to Kuznetsova and Amelie before she was even sick. I still think the only place Henin can put trouble Serena is clay, because Henin never had to face a player as fast and as powerful as Srena/Venus during her run except Clijsters, and Clijsters is just a really big choker, otherwise she would have won some of those Grand Slam finals.

Jaime Bahena
Sep 18th, 2004, 02:09 PM
How is time running out for Williams x 2 ? they have already accomplised SO much more than the rest of the top 15. At 23 and 24, they own 6 and 4 slams, and over 50 titles, including an olympic gold in singles and doubles. Can't ask for much more.Now let me see.........
Momo-25......no slam.
Petrova-22....no slam.
Jcap-28........3
Kim-21.........no slam
Juju-22........3 and 1 gold
Lindsay........3 and 1 gold
Sugyama-29.....no slam
Myskina-23......1 slam
Dementieva-23 next mth....no slam
Schnyder-26......no slam
Bovina-21.........no slam
These guys better catch up with time.....like Williams times 2 did!!!!!!!:rolleyes:

How did Martina Hingis do in her career? Didn't she retire at 22 years of age?

*Karen*
Sep 18th, 2004, 02:10 PM
Yeah in one of matches. Svetlana was the first to beat Justine in weeks. Look at Svetlana now. She's a top quality player who will get to the top 5 and stay there for a long time. Serena's been losing to lower ranked players than Momo. I really do rate Henin as the real number 1. She's what Federer is to the mens game when she's fit.

bandabou
Sep 18th, 2004, 02:18 PM
Jennifer has been performing better recently at the majors than Serena?! Recently is what?! two weeks ago?! Hello!!!! Serena has a F and Jen hasn´t gotten one...what is better performance: SF or F?!

Come on, karen...don´t be deluded. It ain´t like Serena has been losing 1st round and Jennifer has been reaching F´s at will. Three majors played for both this year.
QF vs SF
F vs QF
QF vs Sf

What in those results makes you think that Jennifer´s the one likelier to win a major?! She didn´t even reach a F..what part of that don´t you understand?! To win a major, you need to reach a F first, no?!

So, you give Justine the chance to get fully healthy but you don´t give Serena the same chance?!

We´ll see in the future, but I think you´re gonna end up being mistaken....

nari
Sep 18th, 2004, 02:21 PM
By "Steffi stuff" do you mean, do they have fans crazy enough to go stabbing their rivals? :confused:
certainly mean steffi win 22 tennis slams :lol:

bandabou
Sep 18th, 2004, 02:21 PM
Yeah in one of matches. Svetlana was the first to beat Justine in weeks. Look at Svetlana now. She's a top quality player who will get to the top 5 and stay there for a long time. Serena's been losing to lower ranked players than Momo. I really do rate Henin as the real number 1. She's what Federer is to the mens game when she's fit.


Please karen....Serena has only one loss to someone ranked below her this year: Nadia at AI..for the rest all the players she lost to were ranked ahead of her and were top 10. Or are you implying that the likes of Jennifer aren´t quality players?!

Stamp Paid
Sep 18th, 2004, 02:21 PM
Yeah in one of matches. Svetlana was the first to beat Justine in weeks. Look at Svetlana now. She's a top quality player who will get to the top 5 and stay there for a long time. Serena's been losing to lower ranked players than Momo. I really do rate Henin as the real number 1. She's what Federer is to the mens game when she's fit.
Momo is #1 in the world, so everyone Serena has lost to other than Momo is ranked lower than Momo, aren't they?

I think henin's frailty was shown in her inability to sustain success from the Olympics to the USO. ALL of the extreme fitness that Etcheberry has her doing, and she couldnt survive three weeks?

And Serenas losses this year (just 6) have been 3 to capriati, 1 to Maria, 1 to Nadia, and 1 to Lindsay. The only iffy loss is to Petrova, and it was on clay and she was playing injured.

And Henin is the Federer for the women's side? http://wtaworld.com/ubb/confused.gif

*Karen*
Sep 18th, 2004, 02:27 PM
Henin's going to dominate 2005. I can feel it.

Will Serena and Venus ever be fit agian. Their injury has already been a year too long. I don't think either will ever be fully fit. They seem to pull a muscle every time they sneeze.

As I've been trying to say. Jen won't win a slam either, but will perform better than V & S.

bandabou
Sep 18th, 2004, 02:51 PM
Henin's going to dominate 2005. I can feel it.

Will Serena and Venus ever be fit agian. Their injury has already been a year too long. I don't think either will ever be fully fit. They seem to pull a muscle every time they sneeze.

As I've been trying to say. Jen won't win a slam either, but will perform better than V & S.

What injury other than her knee, remember she had surgery on it and it takes time for it to heal, has Serena had?!

So: r u willing to bet on Jen having more success at the majors over the next few years than either sister?!

*Karen*
Sep 18th, 2004, 04:15 PM
I am.

bandabou
Sep 18th, 2004, 04:26 PM
I am.

You do?! And what do u consider better?! The odd SF as maximum?!

Calimero377
Sep 18th, 2004, 11:22 PM
I honestly believe that Serena won't be able to win slams with Henin playing. By the start of 2005 Henin will be at her best. Henin's a different player than when Serena was still winning. Once she's fully fit no-one will stop her. Not even Serena. I like Serena. She's even on my sig. I just don't think she's a top 5 player anymore. I really don't think she'll win another slam. As for the Monica thing. Serena, Venus, Jen, Lindsay are all in the exact same position as she was.


Although Henin is my favourite player on the tour I think that Serena still has the means to win slams. And she will prove it in 2005.
Read my lips ....

:wavey:

bandabou
Sep 18th, 2004, 11:31 PM
Although Henin is my favourite player on the tour I think that Serena still has the means to win slams. And she will prove it in 2005.
Read my lips ....

:wavey:


I hope so much you´re gonna be right.

Amorc
Sep 18th, 2004, 11:33 PM
I would say that a fully fit Serena should be favourite to win every tournament that she enters.

kabuki
Sep 18th, 2004, 11:34 PM
I would say that a fully fit Serena should be favourite to win every tournament that she enters.

Agreed.

bandabou
Sep 19th, 2004, 12:10 AM
I would say that a fully fit Serena should be favourite to win every tournament that she enters.

Word!

DeDe4925
Sep 20th, 2004, 05:22 PM
Bandy stop lying....you didnt read all of that! http://wtaworld.com/images/smilies/laugh.gifhttp://wtaworld.com/images/smilies/laugh.gifhttp://wtaworld.com/images/smilies/laugh.gifhttp://wtaworld.com/images/smilies/laugh.gifhttp://wtaworld.com/images/smilies/wavey.gif
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

DeDe4925
Sep 20th, 2004, 05:24 PM
I am being realistic. I said none of them will win another slam, and I included Jen when I said that. I said that Jen had the best chance out of the 3 of them because overall she's done better in the slams recently.
Oh really, I didn't know that she made it to a slam final? Serena was in the Wimby final and soundly beat Jen on her way there.

DeDe4925
Sep 20th, 2004, 05:27 PM
Yeah in one of matches. Svetlana was the first to beat Justine in weeks. Look at Svetlana now. She's a top quality player who will get to the top 5 and stay there for a long time. Serena's been losing to lower ranked players than Momo. I really do rate Henin as the real number 1. She's what Federer is to the mens game when she's fit.
:scratch:

Stamp Paid
Sep 20th, 2004, 05:32 PM
:scratch:
I know right! I was flabbergasted as well.

raquel
Sep 20th, 2004, 05:59 PM
Although Henin is my favourite player on the tour I think that Serena still has the means to win slams. And she will prove it in 2005.
Read my lips ....

:wavey:
Why start a thread saying time is running out for her then? :p

DeDe4925
Sep 20th, 2004, 07:27 PM
I know right! I was flabbergasted as well.
:lol:

oddkayla
Sep 22nd, 2004, 07:18 AM
I think its worth pointing out that other players have not necessarily raised their games, Venus, and Serena's games have fallen off, all in varying degrees.

Before her illness, Justine was the only one who had raised her game. So the way I see it they can still take it up several notches, to their own standards.

However, Venus will have to sort out her head. Her forehand can stand the heat if her head is working properly and it hasnt. A good will will move her in the right direction. This is the time to really feel sorry for Kim. If she was playing these past 3 grand slams, she would surely have won one.

I dont think time has run out for Serena. It might have run out for Venus in that I dont know how much longer she can put herself out there. Not age. If anyone still believes Lindsay for all the brilliant opportunities she missed these past two slams can win a major, and Amelie the queen of head cases can win a major, then Venus should be right inthere with a chance as well.

Experimentee
Sep 22nd, 2004, 05:06 PM
Venus and Serena are not currently worse than the players who are now considered to be top players. Serena's worst loss has been to Petrova, Venus' has been to Pierce.
Henin also lost to Petrova and Kuznetsova this year, Myskina lost to Tchakvetaze and Frazier, Mauresmo lost to Molik. So the current top players arent doing too much better.

*Karen*
Sep 22nd, 2004, 06:18 PM
I'd say her worst loss was to Maria, she was only ranked 15 at the time. Not really too bad a loss though, Maria on grass.

Momo also lost to Hantuchova on grass, when Daniela was in a slump.

Other top players had some bad losses too.

Calimero377
Sep 22nd, 2004, 07:46 PM
Why start a thread saying time is running out for her then? :p


What about "is running out" was wrong?
It's a fact that less than 30 % of the slam winners in 88-04 were 23+ years old. Amazing indeed, IMO. So time is running out - even more so for Venus.
That doesn't mean that she (Serena) won't win any more slams. She has won 6 until now - if she wins 3 more she will have won 33 % as a 23+ player. But she will not reach the top tier status of Graf, Court, Navi, Evert or even BJK any more. Second tier - together with Seles, Goolagong, Hingis. When she won USO five years ago I was sure she would make 15+ slams and be one of the greatest ever.

CanIGetAWhat
Jul 4th, 2005, 01:42 AM
I honestly believe that Serena won't be able to win slams with Henin playing. By the start of 2005 Henin will be at her best. Henin's a different player than when Serena was still winning. Once she's fully fit no-one will stop her. Not even Serena. I like Serena. She's even on my sig. I just don't think she's a top 5 player anymore. I really don't think she'll win another slam. As for the Monica thing. Serena, Venus, Jen, Lindsay are all in the exact same position as she was.*Karen*, you were right about Henin being fully fit, no-one can stop her (i.e. clay season) but just a tad wrong about Serena not winning another slam. ;)...So: r u willing to bet on Jen having more success at the majors over the next few years than either sister?!I am.Oh, *Karen*...:tape:

RVD
Jul 4th, 2005, 01:48 AM
*Karen*, you were right about Henin being fully fit, no-one can stop her (i.e. clay season) but just a tad wrong about Serena not winning another slam. ;)Oh, *Karen*...:tape::haha: You're so bad! :tape:

SJW
Jul 4th, 2005, 01:56 AM
I've always said I don't rate Venus as a tennis legend She's good but I can't see her ever winning another slam. I think she'll always get to the quarters but not any furhter. With Serena I can imagine that she might one day win another slam but it's very doubtful. The tour will survive without them. It managed the last year. I think Serena's abscence was good for tennis. Before you always assumed Serena would win. Now you just don't have a clue who's going to win.

:)

SJW
Jul 4th, 2005, 01:58 AM
I am being realistic. I said none of them will win another slam, and I included Jen when I said that. I said that Jen had the best chance out of the 3 of them because overall she's done better in the slams recently.

:)

vettipooh
Jul 4th, 2005, 02:00 AM
I honestly believe that Serena won't be able to win slams with Henin playing. By the start of 2005 Henin will be at her best. Henin's a different player than when Serena was still winning. Once she's fully fit no-one will stop her. Not even Serena. I like Serena. She's even on my sig. I just don't think she's a top 5 player anymore. I really don't think she'll win another slam. As for the Monica thing. Serena, Venus, Jen, Lindsay are all in the exact same position as she was.:haha: :haha: :haha:

Denise4925
Jul 4th, 2005, 03:15 AM
Poor Karen. :lol:

VeeReeDavJCap81
Jul 4th, 2005, 04:36 AM
Crow, so much crow.

Rocketta
Jul 4th, 2005, 04:38 AM
This thread is a prime example of why people shouldn't predict that someone is through...let the players decide when they are through. :lol:

mykarma
Jul 4th, 2005, 04:45 AM
I did not know that. That would explain why.....why.....actually, it wouldn't explain anything. ;)
You are so crazy. :lol: :lol: :lol:

VeeReeDavJCap81
Jul 4th, 2005, 04:47 AM
This thread is a prime example of why people shouldn't predict that someone is through...let the players decide when they are through. :lol:

Exactly!!

mykarma
Jul 4th, 2005, 04:51 AM
I think if either of them would like to remain at the top, they better take Tracy's advice and start looking for a forehand coachDidn't Vee with that forehand just win Wimbledon? Didn't Serena win the AO with that forehand?

Rocketta
Jul 4th, 2005, 05:32 AM
Didn't Vee with that forehand just win Wimbledon? Didn't Serena win the AO with that forehand?

yup...:tape:

RVD
Jul 4th, 2005, 05:52 AM
*...ding-ding-ding...*
http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de//person/chef.gif “Extra tall heaping serving of 'Crow Pie' is up...”
Karen...http://deephousepage.com/smilies/eat.gif
http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de//person/chef.gif “Whoa! Slow down there young lady. Them thar crow beaks is particularly sharp this season.”

Stamp Paid
Jul 4th, 2005, 07:07 AM
*tick tock, tick tock*

LindsayRocks89
Jul 4th, 2005, 07:40 AM
:lol: :tape:

@m@nd@
Jul 4th, 2005, 07:41 AM
eerrmmmm..........:rolleyes:

VeraNuVirgosFan
Jul 4th, 2005, 08:23 AM
Many posts in this thread just make me want to quote Venus once again:

"The way you guys write, you would think you all have played professional tennis before." - Venus Williams

She talked to the Madia, but it seems to be relevant to us - members of this board - as well. Of course some of you might have played professional tennis, but I don't think at Venus' level.

Calimero377
Jul 4th, 2005, 12:03 PM
This thread is a prime example of why people shouldn't predict that someone is through...let the players decide when they are through. :lol:


The thread starter at least didn't predict that. He even said - in another post - that Serena definitely would win at least one more slam.

The thread starter only said that 70% of slam winners in the 88-04 time frame were younger than 23 years. And that therefore time was running out for the sisters. And it is. I do think that both have won the majority of their slams already.

Sam L
Jul 4th, 2005, 12:07 PM
The thread starter at least didn't predict that. He even said - in another post - that Serena definitely would win at least one more slam.

The thread starter only said that 70% of slam winners in the 88-04 time frame were younger than 23 years. And that therefore time was running out for the sisters. And it is. I do think that both have won the majority of their slams already.
Another prediction? You really like getting humiliated don't you? :lol:

Calimero377
Jul 4th, 2005, 12:16 PM
Another prediction? You really like getting humiliated don't you? :lol:


Going by the 88-04 stats (only 30 % of slam wins by 23plus-year-old players) Serena will win 2 more slams. At the end of her career she then will have won 33 % of her slams after her 23rd birthday.

2 more slams is a reasonable prediction, IMO.
In any case she has won most of her slams already. Or do you think she will be at 12 or 14 at the end of her career? :eek:

I don't know how I got humiliated by any predictions.
Suggesting that Graf was "handed her wins on a plate" - that is real humiliation.

stenen
Jul 4th, 2005, 12:23 PM
The thread starter at least didn't predict that. He even said - in another post - that Serena definitely would win at least one more slam.

The thread starter only said that 70% of slam winners in the 88-04 time frame were younger than 23 years.

Why are you talking about yourself in third person? :confused:

Sam L
Jul 4th, 2005, 12:26 PM
Going by the 88-04 stats (only 30 % of slam wins by 23plus-year-old players) Serena will win 2 more slams. At the end of her career she then will have won 33 % of her slams after her 23rd birthday.

2 more slams is a reasonable prediction, IMO.
In any case she has won most of her slams already. Or do you think she will be at 12 or 14 at the end of her career? :eek:

I don't know how I got humiliated by any predictions.
Suggesting that Graf was "handed her wins on a plate" - that is real humiliation.
You don't read other people's posts, do you?

:sigh:

You don't know how you got humiliated with your predictions?

http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?t=174400&page=1&pp=40

bandabou
Jul 4th, 2005, 05:02 PM
Cali, Cali...another prediction....ooooppss, how about this one: Enna WILL win Wimbledon 2005? :haha: :rolls:

Calimero377
Jul 4th, 2005, 07:57 PM
Why are you talking about yourself in third person? :confused:


Oh, that was me???

No wonder I couldn't good-rep him ..... :lol:

VeeReeDavJCap81
Jul 4th, 2005, 07:59 PM
Oh, that was me???

No wonder I couldn't good-rep him ..... :lol:

:rimshot:

OUT!
Jul 4th, 2005, 08:20 PM
Poor Karen. :lol:
I love it when ppl are proven wrong! :hearts: :lol: :tape:

GoVenus! :woohoo::D

VeeReeDavJCap81
Jul 4th, 2005, 08:21 PM
I love it when ppl are proven wrong! :hearts: :lol: :tape:

GoVenus! :woohoo::D

Same here.

Stamp Paid
Jul 4th, 2005, 09:43 PM
This poster didnt just make a simple prediction.

When a poster makes such a bold statment as Venus is over the hill, Venus will not win another slam, what the fuck do you expect from her fans? They I guess should just be satisfied in what their favorite has already accomplished and take these bullshit comments in stride. No, you'd rather be the cynical, judgmental asshole and make yourself feel important (or possibly even better about yourself? :confused: ) by shitting on a couple of rightfully enthusiastic fanboys because their favorite just won a slam after not winning a slam since 2001, being written off four years by EVERYONe despite her superior talent, and losing 5 straight slam finals to her sister.

Kudos to you. :rolleyes:
Its is you who should grow the fuck up.

Stamp Paid
Jul 4th, 2005, 11:36 PM
This poster didnt just make a simple prediction.

When a poster makes such a bold statment as Venus is over the hill, Venus will not win another slam, what the fuck do you expect from her fans? They I guess should just be satisfied in what their favorite has already accomplished and take these bullshit comments in stride. No, you'd rather be the cynical, judgmental asshole and make yourself feel important (or possibly even better about yourself? :confused: ) by shitting on a couple of rightfully enthusiastic fanboys because their favorite just won a slam after not winning a slam since 2001, being written off four years by EVERYONe despite her superior talent, and losing 5 straight slam finals to her sister.

Kudos to you. :rolleyes:
Its is you who should grow the fuck up.

Damn Bree, I was hoping for something more scathing from you, man! Thats why I said those words in particular, to get a scathing response. :sad::sad: You gave me something reasonable, and I cant even attack it. :sad::sad:

No fair. :)