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USOPEN1000
Sep 3rd, 2004, 06:49 PM
People forget.

Everyone agrees what a horrible thing it was on April 30, 1993, when deranged Steffi Graf fan Guenter Parche shoved a knife into the left shoulder of Seles, the blade a millimeter away from leaving her paralyzed. But not enough people seem to remember how dominant Seles was at the time.

She was Tiger Woods. She was Michael Jordan. In the spring of '93, Seles had taken over the game. She had ripped it out of the hands of Martina Navratilova and Graf, and she was on her way to being compared with anyone who had ever played.

From 1991-93, Seles won seven Grand Slam titles out of eight she entered, finishing second in the other. She was only 19 years old, and she seemed to be getting better.

Then there was the tournament in Hamburg, and a fan rushing behind her. There was pain, and there was blood.

And Seles would never be the same.

It was one of the greatest tragedies in the history of sport, one of the cruelest moments in the history of humanity. It was as if Parche cut into her shoulder blade and cut away all the greatness that seemed promised to her. Seles was absent from the tour for 27 months. The player she had become was gone forever.

Can you imagine what it must be like to be Seles, to lie in the dark and try to count the titles, the money, the moments that were taken from you? Can you imagine the anger that most of us would feel? The bitterness?

Ask Seles to compare herself to the old days, and she is lost for an answer. She doesn't watch what she was, she said. You don't ask her why. It would be too painful to see. Ask her if she ever thinks of what was lost during those 27 months, and she corrects you.

"You mean that one day," she says simply. "Definitely. There would be a different standing in the history books. But that wasn't my choice."

What might women's tennis have become if not for that day? In '93, Seles beat Graf in a stirring Australian final. At that point, Graf had 11 Grand Slam wins and Seles eight. Since then, Graf won 11 more hollow Grand Slams and Seles one. Go figure.....


**MONICA SELES STEAMROLLED STEFFI GRAF AT THE HEIGHT OF THEIR RIVALRY WINNING 8 SLAMS TO GRAF'S 2.** :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

1993 Australian Open Final

Mary Carillo: "That was a 92-mile-an-hour serve from Steffi, and I'd like to have gotten the radar on the return of serve. It was stronger."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1993 Australian Open Final

Cliff Drysdale: "Graf has won eleven grand slam championships."

Mary Carillo: "Seles has played 20 less but she's already won seven of them."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1993 Australian Open Final

Mary Carillo: "How much can you say about this woman? She is a remarkable - she has that remarkable instinct, when under the gun, when under pressure, to attack. She's got the instincts of a doberman. You know, when confronted, she attacks. It's the natural thing for her to do. I just, as I say, I've never seen her like before. I've seen great players, obviously, great champions. But time and again we've seen Monica in trouble, we've seen her play less than her best tennis, and in the end, I mean, she just basically says, 'All right, gimme the ball, gimme the ball.' And she hits winners. It's great stuff."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1993 Australian Open Final

Mary Carillo: "[Steffi's] actually playing better than when she played in '88 and won the Grand Slam. Everyone acts as though 'Well, you know, she's got to get it back, she's got to get it back.' I actually feel that Steffi has added a lot to her game. She's a better defensive player. She's got a better first serve than she used to. I think her slice backhand really works well. I mean, I happen to think that she's a better player than she was a few years ago, but she's facing an opponent that is just remarkable, and I think that's why she doesn't have the Grand Slams titles we're used to seeing from her."

USOPEN1000
Sep 3rd, 2004, 06:53 PM
In 1990, Monica Seles defeated GabrielaSabatini 6-4, 5-7, 3-6, 6-4, 6-2 for a first-ever five-set WTA TOURChampionships final. It was the first women's match to go five sets since theU.S. National Championships in 1901.MONICA

SELES STATS AND FACTS (Before the stabbing of the Graf fanatic)33 career titles; 258-30 career record.Grand Slam Win/Loss Record: 79-6Australian Open 21-0French Open 26-1Wimbledon 13-3U.S. Open 19-2

Seles had already won 8 Grand Slams and yet she played 20 less Grand Slams than second ranked Graf. While Graf only won 11 Grand Slams after 10 years on the women's tour.

Seles had reached the final of her last eight Grand Slams, winning seven ofthem.

Seles had a 3-1 advantage in head to head over second ranked Graf in Grand Slam Finals matches.

Seles became the youngest Grand Slam Champion in 103 years. Not since 15 year old Lottie Dod won Wimbledon in 1887 had tennis seen such a youthful champion.

Seles toppled Graf from number one ranking in March 11, 1991 making her the youngest woman to ever been ranked number one in tennis history.

Seles was the undisputed number one player in the world until the tragedy in Germany.

Seles won three consecutive French Open Crowns in 1990, 1991, 1992 , becoming the first woman to achieved that historic feat in 55 years. Hilde Sperling won from 1935-1937.

Seles won her third consecutive Austrlian Open Crown in January of 1993 beating second ranked Steffi Graf in the finals.

Since turning pro at 15, Seles has won 13 of the 35 tournaments she has entered. By comparison, in their first three full years as pros, Tracy Austin won 10 titles, Andrea Jaeger nine, Navratilova six, Sabatini five and Graf zero.

Seles has the best winning percentage at any single Grand Slam: 21-0 at theAustralian Open.

Seles ranks second behind Chris Evert (.899) in match winning percentage with an.895 average, Graf is poor third (.894).

Seles' most dominating period occurred from Jan. 1991-Feb. 21, 1993:159-12 record.929 winning percentage 22 titles 55-1 record in Grand Slam tournament matchesreached 33 of 34 finals.

Only Evert had a better first four years than Seles on the Tour in the Open era while Graf is a dissapoiting 5th.

PLAYER YEARS RECORD (%) TITLES MONEYEvert '71-74 255-25 (.911) 39 $456,212 Seles '89-92 231-25 (.902) 30 6,956,693Sabatini '85-88 232-71 (.765) 9 1,885,952Capriati '90-93 149-45 (.768) 6 1,491,823Graf '83-86 144-48 (.750) 8 841,094Navratilova '73-76 178-68 (.723) 7 352,458Sanchez Vicario '87-90 134-60 (.690) 5 1,243,030

Prior to the stabbing in 1993, Seles' last title was the VirginiaSlims of Chicago on Feb. 14, 1993 and her last Grand Slam title was at the 1993 Australian Open Championships.Prior to the tournament in Hamburg, Germany, where she was attacked during herquarterfinal match against Maggie Maleeva on April 30, 1993, Seles had notplayed on the Tour for nine weeks due to the flu. Hamburg was Seles' firsttournament back after her 63-day lay-off.

Seles surpassed the $7 million mark in career prize money in January of 1993,only the fourth woman to do so (now there are six).

Seles' title percentage of .516 (33 titles in 64 events) ranks second in theOpen era. Evert leads with a .518 average (157 of 303) and Graf is a poor third at .511(92 of 180).

Before the stabbing, Seles has lost in the first round just once in her career - 1990 inChicago to Ros Fairbank, 6-3, 6-4.

Calimero377
Sep 3rd, 2004, 07:37 PM
People forget.

Everyone agrees what a horrible thing it was on April 30, 1993, when deranged Steffi Graf fan Guenter Parche shoved a knife into the left shoulder of Seles, the blade a millimeter away from leaving her paralyzed. .
...."

"A millimeter".
:lol:



....But not enough people seem to remember how dominant Seles was at the time.

She was Tiger Woods. She was Michael Jordan. In the spring of '93, Seles had taken over the game. She had ripped it out of the hands of Martina Navratilova and Graf, .
...."


Let's have a look at the 12 months before the stabbing.
Seles had a 58-5 win/loss record and had won 7 tournaments.
Graf had a 78-7 win/loss record and had won 9 tournaments.
Applying today's ranking system (that favours playing more) Graf would have been #1 in April 1993 ........
Even with the old system Graf would have been #1 in April 93 IF she had won FO 92 OR AO 93. And FO 92 was a "toss-up" (M. Seles). If the "coin" had fallen on the other side, Graf would have been #1. Accordingly Seles only had a 21 pts. lead in the ranking before Hamburg 1993. One of the closest leads ever. Therefore Graf could take over the #1 spot already 4 weeks after the stabbing. Just 4 weeks .....


....
Then there was the tournament in Hamburg, and a fan rushing behind her. There was pain, and there was blood.

And Seles would never be the same.

It was one of the greatest tragedies in the history of sport, one of the cruelest moments in the history of humanity.....
...."

I think the plane crashes with AC Torino in 1949 & ManU in 1958 when two great soccer teams were destroyed were a little bit more tragic than a 1-cm knife cut.
Same with the Formula 1 crash some decades ago (Monza?) where about 70 specatators died.

"Cruelest moments in the history of humanity"?
OK, you're mocking Monica Seles. Nothing wrong about that for me ....


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Calimero377
Sep 3rd, 2004, 07:41 PM
N1000]In 1990, Monica Seles defeated GabrielaSabatini 6-4, 5-7, 3-6, 6-4, 6-2 for a first-ever five-set WTA TOURChampionships final. It was the first women's match to go five sets since theU.S. National Championships in 1901.MONICA

SELES STATS AND FACTS (Before the stabbing of the Graf fanatic)33 career titles; 258-30 career record.Grand Slam Win/Loss Record: 79-6Australian Open 21-0French Open 26-1Wimbledon 13-3U.S. Open 19-2

Seles had already won 8 Grand Slams and yet she played 20 less Grand Slams than second ranked Graf. While Graf only won 11 Grand Slams after 10 years on the women's tour.

Seles had reached the final of her last eight Grand Slams, winning seven ofthem.

Seles had a 3-1 advantage in head to head over second ranked Graf in Grand Slam Finals matches.

Seles became the youngest Grand Slam Champion in 103 years. Not since 15 year old Lottie Dod won Wimbledon in 1887 had tennis seen such a youthful champion.

Seles toppled Graf from number one ranking in March 11, 1991 making her the youngest woman to ever been ranked number one in tennis history.

Seles was the undisputed number one player in the world until the tragedy in Germany.

Seles won three consecutive French Open Crowns in 1990, 1991, 1992 , becoming the first woman to achieved that historic feat in 55 years. Hilde Sperling won from 1935-1937.

Seles won her third consecutive Austrlian Open Crown in January of 1993 beating second ranked Steffi Graf in the finals.

Since turning pro at 15, Seles has won 13 of the 35 tournaments she has entered. By comparison, in their first three full years as pros, Tracy Austin won 10 titles, Andrea Jaeger nine, Navratilova six, Sabatini five and Graf zero.

Seles has the best winning percentage at any single Grand Slam: 21-0 at theAustralian Open.

Seles ranks second behind Chris Evert (.899) in match winning percentage with an.895 average, Graf is poor third (.894).

Seles' most dominating period occurred from Jan. 1991-Feb. 21, 1993:159-12 record.929 winning percentage 22 titles 55-1 record in Grand Slam tournament matchesreached 33 of 34 finals.

Only Evert had a better first four years than Seles on the Tour in the Open era while Graf is a dissapoiting 5th.

PLAYER YEARS RECORD (%) TITLES MONEYEvert '71-74 255-25 (.911) 39 $456,212 Seles '89-92 231-25 (.902) 30 6,956,693Sabatini '85-88 232-71 (.765) 9 1,885,952Capriati '90-93 149-45 (.768) 6 1,491,823Graf '83-86 144-48 (.750) 8 841,094Navratilova '73-76 178-68 (.723) 7 352,458Sanchez Vicario '87-90 134-60 (.690) 5 1,243,030

Prior to the stabbing in 1993, Seles' last title was the VirginiaSlims of Chicago on Feb. 14, 1993 and her last Grand Slam title was at the 1993 Australian Open Championships.Prior to the tournament in Hamburg, Germany, where she was attacked during herquarterfinal match against Maggie Maleeva on April 30, 1993, Seles had notplayed on the Tour for nine weeks due to the flu. Hamburg was Seles' firsttournament back after her 63-day lay-off.

Seles surpassed the $7 million mark in career prize money in January of 1993,only the fourth woman to do so (now there are six).

Seles' title percentage of .516 (33 titles in 64 events) ranks second in theOpen era. Evert leads with a .518 average (157 of 303) and Graf is a poor third at .511(92 of 180).

Before the stabbing, Seles has lost in the first round just once in her career - 1990 inChicago to Ros Fairbank, 6-3, 6-4.[/QUOTE]


And what did Seles win when she returned being just 21 years old?
In all those 9 years since then?

BTW:
"Nothing says that I would have continued to win."
(Monica Seles, on the years 1993/95)

:worship:

Beat
Sep 3rd, 2004, 08:05 PM
one of the cruelest moments in the history of humanity.

oh, please! i am fully aware that this was the single most horrible moment in seles' life - but "one of the cruelest moments in the history of humanity"? hello?????? :smash:

Joana
Sep 3rd, 2004, 08:14 PM
The only conclusion I reached after reading this is that you are an idiot. Guess what, you are not Monica Seles. I know it's hard to accept it, but after a while I'm sure you will do it. :yeah:

tobe
Sep 3rd, 2004, 08:41 PM
My dear, what is that? How many threads did we have about this, it is sad enough but one shoud not exaggerate it, I guess!
I don't even think Monica would like threads like that,
"The True Story"...Sounds more like a soap opera to me...and not very respectful for Monica as well! Where are the news? If, When, But....nobody knows!

Kart
Sep 3rd, 2004, 09:17 PM
Do you have any idea how hard you make it to defend other Seles fans ?

It is possible to talk about Monica without insulting Steffi Graf you know :rolleyes:.

Instead you've basically opened the floodgates :(.

tennisiscool
Sep 3rd, 2004, 09:20 PM
USOPEN100 , Calimero377 ...Now only LDTennis... is missing from the list of the morons who hasn't posted in this thread yet. Something tells me the thread will be "complete" soon :)

nari
Sep 3rd, 2004, 10:34 PM
USOPEN100 , Calimero377 ...Now only LDTennis... is missing from the list of the morons who hasn't posted in this thread yet. Something tells me the thread will be "complete" soon :)
you are qualified for that list too ;)

Calimero377
Sep 3rd, 2004, 10:43 PM
USOPEN100 , Calimero377 ...Now only LDTennis... is missing from the list of the morons who hasn't posted in this thread yet. Something tells me the thread will be "complete" soon :)


I KNEW tennisiscool would show up .....

:lol:

Tratree
Sep 3rd, 2004, 10:49 PM
Melodramatic much? Yes, it was awful what happened to Seles, but you're exaggerating a bit. If you want to see "one of the cruelest moments in the history of humanity", see the photos in Non-Tennis about the Russian school siege.

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 4th, 2004, 02:57 AM
"A millimeter".
:lol:






Let's have a look at the 12 months before the stabbing.
Seles had a 58-5 win/loss record and had won 7 tournaments.
Graf had a 78-7 win/loss record and had won 9 tournaments.
Applying today's ranking system (that favours playing more) Graf would have been #1 in April 1993 ........
Even with the old system Graf would have been #1 in April 93 IF she had won FO 92 OR AO 93. And FO 92 was a "toss-up" (M. Seles). If the "coin" had fallen on the other side, Graf would have been #1. Accordingly Seles only had a 21 pts. lead in the ranking before Hamburg 1993. One of the closest leads ever. Therefore Graf could take over the #1 spot already 4 weeks after the stabbing. Just 4 weeks .....




I think the plane crashes with AC Torino in 1949 & ManU in 1958 when two great soccer teams were destroyed were a little bit more tragic than a 1-cm knife cut.
Same with the Formula 1 crash some decades ago (Monza?) where about 70 specatators died.

"Cruelest moments in the history of humanity"?
OK, you're mocking Monica Seles. Nothing wrong about that for me ....


:lol: :lol: :lol:


She was ustoppable until the unthinkable happened.

If I could be granted one wish for any athlete at the start of this century, it would be one last run for Monica Seles. One summer when tennis could be as meaningful to her as it once was, when she could push herself into the best shape of her young adult life, when she could grunt her way down a glorious Grand Slam road. One last summer when Seles could be unburdened of ghosts, free of her past.

Of all the enduring sports images that flashed by like a newsreel at the century's end, none could re-create the moment's visceral reality like the sight of Seles being stabbed. Nothing could recapture the range of expression, from bewilderment to pain to shock. No one in the history of sports ever experienced what Monica Seles did that terrible day in Hamburg, Germany, April 30, 1993.

Guenter Parche, 38, had shadowed top ranked Seles throughout the week-long tournament. His motive: a crazed desire to advance the fortunes of Seles' main competitor, his fellow German world number two Steffi Graf. Parche, an unemployed lathe operator, lived in his aunt's attic in Gorsbach, Thuringia, in eastern Germany, where he had created a shrine comprising posters and videos of Graf.

Parche, a stocky, balding man wearing a plaid shirt and jeans and carrying a green plastic bag, sidled down the aisle and paused behind Seles. Suddenly he raised the knife, grasping it with both hands. A spectator screamed, which seemed to alert Seles, who twisted and leaned slightly forward in her chair. The knife struck her back at an angle. Seles shrieked and leaped from her chair, and then stood with a hand clasped to her neck, an expression of abject confusion on her face.

Attempting to aid Seles, an unidentified man leaped over the barricade and onto the court and grabbed her by the shoulders. Seles, beginning to sob, collapsed against him, and he lowered her to the ground, where she was quickly surrounded by frantic officials, including chair umpire Stefan Voss, WTA tour director Lisa Grattan and trainer Madeleine Van Zoelen, and Seles's brother, Zoltan. In the meantime two guards subdued Parche and dragged him from the stadium in a headlock and half nelson, breaking his left arm in the process. The knife lay on the court next to Seles's chair, with blood visible on the blade.

Those nearest to Seles initially had no idea what had happened. The 10th-ranked Maleeva was oblivious to the approach of Parche until she heard Seles scream. Maleeva wandered to a corner of the court, dazed, and stayed there during the long minutes it took for a stretcher to arrive. "I feel guilty I didn't go to her," Maleeva said, "but I was so shocked I didn't know what to do." Grattan saw Parche approach Seles. At first she thought he had tried to choke her, and then she saw Seles grab at her back. Grattan reached Seles as she sank to the ground. Grattan saw her "bleeding profusely," as she later described it, and attempted to stanch the blood with a towel. "Am I hurt? Am I bleeding?" Seles asked Grattan.

A moment later Van Zoelen arrived with her medical kit, and a panicked Zoltan Seles also arrived on the court. He was the only member of Monica's family to attend the match; her mother, Esther, was not feeling well, and her father, Karolj, had stayed at the hotel to care for her. Zoltan took Monica's hand, shook her legs and said, "Keep moving, keep moving." Monica felt faint but was not disoriented, according to Grattan and Van Zoelen. She became silent once Zoltan arrived. "She was stunned," Van Zoelen said. "She was like the rest of us, saying things like, `It's impossible. How can this be?' " Finally Seles was put on a stretcher and, sitting upright, was wheeled out of the stadium, sobbing.

How could Seles sit down for a changeover anytime soon without wincing? "I think the real damage is to the psyche," said Martina Navratilova. One minute she was 19, innocent, and great; the next, she was wounded, grounded, and haunted. Since the stabbing, we've seen only very rare glimpses of the indomitable Seles who strung together Grand Slam titles in the early '90s like pearls on a necklace. :angel:

USOPEN1000
Sep 4th, 2004, 03:08 AM
Do you have any idea how hard you make it to defend other Seles fans ?

It is possible to talk about Monica without insulting Steffi Graf you know :rolleyes:.

Instead you've basically opened the floodgates :(.

Steffi Graf is far from the best of all time as what some Grafians falsely claims in this board :tape: :tape: . In the middle of her career she was not even the best player because of a teenage girl with 2 hands off both sides who won 10 of the 12 biggest events in a 2.5 year period between October 1990 and April 1993 when a jealous Graf fan resorted to stabbing the young Seles in the back with a knife because she was so dominant in women's tennis as the teenage #1.

To be the best, you have to be the best -- the most dominant -- in the middle of your career. If you are not CLEARLY the very, very best of your era (the small 10% or so of the entire 130 year history of the sport) ... then HOW can you be the best of all time?

You have to be the undisputed best player of your era -- and in the MIDDLE of your career (which Steffi Graf most obviously was not in the 30 months running from October 1990 through April 1993 when the #1 teenager was stabbed in the back with a sharp knife by a Graf fan) -- if you want to even be in the running for consideration as the all-time greatest. :tape: :tape: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

MONICA SELES TROUNCED STEFFI GRAF AT THE HEIGHT OF THEIR RIVALRY WINNING 8 SLAMS TO GRAF'S 2. :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

1999 Roland Garros, 3rd Round

Chris Evert: "[Monica] then really got cheated out of a lot of Grand Slams. She was really dominating women's tennis, dominating Steffi Graf. As I said before, she won seven out of eight Grand Slams and then got stabbed and was out for 27 months. Her assailant got his wish, that Steffi Graf be Number One, and sure enough, Steffi regained the Number One position when Monica was out of the game. So he got his wish."

Dick Enberg: "Who knows how many titles she would own had she remained in full health?"

Chris Evert: "Well, a lot more than nine Grand Slams, I'll tell you that. That's so not fair, when you look at Steffi's 21 and Monica's nine, it's very unbalanced, and it shouldn't be."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

USOPEN1000
Sep 4th, 2004, 03:18 AM
"A millimeter".
:lol:






Let's have a look at the 12 months before the stabbing.
Seles had a 58-5 win/loss record and had won 7 tournaments.
Graf had a 78-7 win/loss record and had won 9 tournaments.
Applying today's ranking system (that favours playing more) Graf would have been #1 in April 1993 ........
Even with the old system Graf would have been #1 in April 93 IF she had won FO 92 OR AO 93. And FO 92 was a "toss-up" (M. Seles). If the "coin" had fallen on the other side, Graf would have been #1. Accordingly Seles only had a 21 pts. lead in the ranking before Hamburg 1993. One of the closest leads ever. Therefore Graf could take over the #1 spot already 4 weeks after the stabbing. Just 4 weeks .....




I think the plane crashes with AC Torino in 1949 & ManU in 1958 when two great soccer teams were destroyed were a little bit more tragic than a 1-cm knife cut.
Same with the Formula 1 crash some decades ago (Monza?) where about 70 specatators died.

"Cruelest moments in the history of humanity"?
OK, you're mocking Monica Seles. Nothing wrong about that for me ....


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Steffi Graf's Career in a Nutshell.......



Gunther Parche
and WEAK Competition once Seles was gone.


OBTW I would not now how to answer this question either if I was S. G

Q:Steffi say 20 years from now when someone looks at the record books and sees that you have won 3/4 slam.If someone mentions that to you would you say thank you or would you say yeah but I did it without the best player being around?

Graf: I dont Know :tape: :tape: :haha: :haha:



The best COMBINATION in the history of women's singles HAS TO BE Gunther Parche and Steffi Graf. :banana: :banana: :banana:
________________________________________________

" I just haven't quite figured out how to beat her".......... :eek: :eek:

------Steffi Graf.......
after her loss to Monica Seles at the Australian Open Finals, 1993.......

Maybe you're just too OBSESSED with Stefanie Graf that you have this delusional sick idea that Graf was ever better than Seles. :lol: :lol: :smash: :smash:

USOPEN1000
Sep 4th, 2004, 03:29 AM
N1000]In 1990, Monica Seles defeated GabrielaSabatini 6-4, 5-7, 3-6, 6-4, 6-2 for a first-ever five-set WTA TOURChampionships final. It was the first women's match to go five sets since theU.S. National Championships in 1901.MONICA

SELES STATS AND FACTS (Before the stabbing of the Graf fanatic)33 career titles; 258-30 career record.Grand Slam Win/Loss Record: 79-6Australian Open 21-0French Open 26-1Wimbledon 13-3U.S. Open 19-2

Seles had already won 8 Grand Slams and yet she played 20 less Grand Slams than second ranked Graf. While Graf only won 11 Grand Slams after 10 years on the women's tour.

Seles had reached the final of her last eight Grand Slams, winning seven ofthem.

Seles had a 3-1 advantage in head to head over second ranked Graf in Grand Slam Finals matches.

Seles became the youngest Grand Slam Champion in 103 years. Not since 15 year old Lottie Dod won Wimbledon in 1887 had tennis seen such a youthful champion.

Seles toppled Graf from number one ranking in March 11, 1991 making her the youngest woman to ever been ranked number one in tennis history.

Seles was the undisputed number one player in the world until the tragedy in Germany.

Seles won three consecutive French Open Crowns in 1990, 1991, 1992 , becoming the first woman to achieved that historic feat in 55 years. Hilde Sperling won from 1935-1937.

Seles won her third consecutive Austrlian Open Crown in January of 1993 beating second ranked Steffi Graf in the finals.

Since turning pro at 15, Seles has won 13 of the 35 tournaments she has entered. By comparison, in their first three full years as pros, Tracy Austin won 10 titles, Andrea Jaeger nine, Navratilova six, Sabatini five and Graf zero.

Seles has the best winning percentage at any single Grand Slam: 21-0 at theAustralian Open.

Seles ranks second behind Chris Evert (.899) in match winning percentage with an.895 average, Graf is poor third (.894).

Seles' most dominating period occurred from Jan. 1991-Feb. 21, 1993:159-12 record.929 winning percentage 22 titles 55-1 record in Grand Slam tournament matchesreached 33 of 34 finals.

Only Evert had a better first four years than Seles on the Tour in the Open era while Graf is a dissapoiting 5th.

PLAYER YEARS RECORD (%) TITLES MONEYEvert '71-74 255-25 (.911) 39 $456,212 Seles '89-92 231-25 (.902) 30 6,956,693Sabatini '85-88 232-71 (.765) 9 1,885,952Capriati '90-93 149-45 (.768) 6 1,491,823Graf '83-86 144-48 (.750) 8 841,094Navratilova '73-76 178-68 (.723) 7 352,458Sanchez Vicario '87-90 134-60 (.690) 5 1,243,030

Prior to the stabbing in 1993, Seles' last title was the VirginiaSlims of Chicago on Feb. 14, 1993 and her last Grand Slam title was at the 1993 Australian Open Championships.Prior to the tournament in Hamburg, Germany, where she was attacked during herquarterfinal match against Maggie Maleeva on April 30, 1993, Seles had notplayed on the Tour for nine weeks due to the flu. Hamburg was Seles' firsttournament back after her 63-day lay-off.

Seles surpassed the $7 million mark in career prize money in January of 1993,only the fourth woman to do so (now there are six).

Seles' title percentage of .516 (33 titles in 64 events) ranks second in theOpen era. Evert leads with a .518 average (157 of 303) and Graf is a poor third at .511(92 of 180).

Before the stabbing, Seles has lost in the first round just once in her career - 1990 inChicago to Ros Fairbank, 6-3, 6-4.


And what did Seles win when she returned being just 21 years old?
In all those 9 years since then?

BTW:
"Nothing says that I would have continued to win."
(Monica Seles, on the years 1993/95)

:worship:[/QUOTE]


Lets take this real slow for Calimero.....since this is news to him.

Monica .....Seles ..... was .... stabbed ..... in .... the ..... back ..... with ..... a ..... knife ..... by ..... a ..... jealous ..... fan ..... of ..... Steffi ..... Graf ..... in ..... Hamburg ..... Germany ..... at ..... the ..... end ..... of ..... April ..... 1993 ..... when ..... the ..... young ..... Monica ..... Seles ..... was ..... clearly ..... the ..... best ..... player ..... in ..... women's ..... tennis ..... from ..... November 1990 ..... until ..... the ..... stabbing ..... in ..... April 1993 ..... even ..... though ..... Monica ..... was ...... only ..... a ..... teenager ..... and ..... Steffi ..... Graf ..... was ..... in ..... the ..... middle ..... of ..... her ..... career ..... and ..... into ..... her ..... 20s.

During ..... those ..... 30 ..... months ..... for ..... a ..... full ...... 2.5 ...... years ..... Seles ..... as ..... a ..... teenager ..... won ..... 9 ..... of ..... the ..... 11 ..... biggest ..... singles ..... titles ..... in ..... women's ..... tennis ...... as ...... a ..... teenager ...... even ..... though ..... Graf ..... was ..... in ..... the ..... middle ..... of ..... her ..... career.

" I just haven't quite figured out how to beat her".......... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

------Steffi Graf.......
after her demoralizing loss to World number one Monica Seles at the Australian Open Finals, 1993....... :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

Maybe you're just too OBSESSED with Stefanie Graf that you have this delusional sick idea that Graf was ever better than Seles. :smash: :smash:

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 4th, 2004, 06:10 AM
oh, please! i am fully aware that this was the single most horrible moment in seles' life - but "one of the cruelest moments in the history of humanity"? hello?????? :smash:

It was indeed one of the cruelest moments in the history of humanity. Adding insult to injury, the psychotic evil Parche never spent a day behind bars.

The injustice against Seles in Germany continues even up to this day and the world will never ever forget. :angel:

Calimero377
Sep 4th, 2004, 06:21 AM
It was indeed one of the cruelest moments in the history of humanity. ....

Comparable only to the Holcaust.
Or Stalin's crimes.
Or at least slavery and the indian wars.


..... Adding insult to injury, the psychotic evil Parche never spent a day behind bars.
....

Of course he did, dumbo ....

:confused:

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 4th, 2004, 06:22 AM
Melodramatic much? Yes, it was awful what happened to Seles, but you're exaggerating a bit. If you want to see "one of the cruelest moments in the history of humanity", see the photos in Non-Tennis about the Russian school siege.

April 1993
Gunther Parche, a German supporter of #2 Steffi Graf, violently attacked teenage phenom and women's #1 Monica Seles in the back with a knife when Seles had won 10 of the last 12 biggest events -- and 11 of the last 14 biggest events -- in women's tennis between 1990 and 1993.

Melodramatic? :angel:

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 4th, 2004, 06:28 AM
Do you have any idea how hard you make it to defend other Seles fans ?

It is possible to talk about Monica without insulting Steffi Graf you know :rolleyes:.

Instead you've basically opened the floodgates :(.


The intended beneficiary was able to be unjustly enriched by winning all 5 major events consecutively in 1993 and grabbed the number one ranking AFTER Monica Seles had been stabbed. (Keep in mind that Seles was the 3-time defending champion of the French, WTA and Australian Open Championships and she was the 2-time defending champion of the U.S. Open when the attack took place.) :angel:

Calimero377
Sep 4th, 2004, 06:40 AM
The intended beneficiary was able to be unjustly enriched by winning all 5 major events consecutively in 1993 and grabbed the number one ranking AFTER Monica Seles had been stabbed. (Keep in mind that Seles was the 3-time defending champion of the French, WTA and Australian Open Championships and she was the 2-time defending champion of the U.S. Open when the attack took place.) :angel:


Keep in mind that Seles was a 9-years-not-winning player of the FO, USO and Wimbledon after her return ....

If only Graf had been stabbed in spring of 90.
Or Hingis in spring 99.
Or Venus in fall 01.
Or Serena in spring 03.
Or Austin in winter 81/82.
Or Sharapova just after Wimbledon 04.
Or Sabatini in May 91.

They could have become legends .....

:worship:

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 4th, 2004, 06:51 AM
Keep in mind that Seles was a 9-years-not-winning player of the FO, USO and Wimbledon after her return ....

If only Graf had been stabbed in spring of 90.
Or Hingis in spring 99.
Or Venus in fall 01.
Or Serena in spring 03.
Or Austin in winter 81/82.
Or Sharapova just after Wimbledon 04.
Or Sabatini in May 91.

They could have become legends .....

:worship:

Interestingly weird... but the fact is that what you are chirping did not happen(sic) and the heinous crime perpetrated against Seles did occur. Face reality and stop this obsession.

BTW, how many Slams did Graf win in each of the years 1990, 1991 and 1992 when Seles was winning 10 of the 12 biggest singles titles in women's tennis during that span of October 1990 through April 1993?

Graf during the 30 months October 1990 through April 1993 won only Wimbledon -- 1 of the 5 biggest singles titles in both of those years 1991 and 1992. It just so happens that Monica Seles won the other 4 both years, and then Seles won the first major event of 1993, too ... didn't she?

Then the stabbing took place in April 1993.

Guess who won the next 3 major events in 1993 after Seles had won the 1993 Australian Open before being stabbed by a Graf fan? (if you guessed Steffi Graf ....... ) :angel:

Calimero377
Sep 4th, 2004, 07:41 AM
Interestingly weird... but the fact is that what you are chirping did not happen and the heinous crime perpetrated against Seles did occur. Face reality and stop this obsession.

BTW, how many Slams did Graf win in each of the years 1990, 1991 and 1992 when Seles was winning 10 of the 12 biggest singles titles in women's tennis during that span of October 1990 through April 1993?

Graf during the 30 months October 1990 through April 1993 won only Wimbledon -- 1 of the 5 biggest singles titles in both of those years 1991 and 1992. It just so happens that Monica Seles won the other 4 both years, and then Seles won the first major event of 1993, too ... didn't she?

Then the stabbing took place in April 1993.

Guess who won the next 3 major events in 1993 after Seles had won the 1993 Australian Open before being stabbed by a Graf fan? (if you guessed Steffi Graf ....... ) :angel:

Graf won.
Because she reached almost all finals again.
Which she didn't in 90/92.
And as Graf has a career 78.2 % finals-winning percentage she won most tournaments in 93/95. What she couldn't do in her slump years 90/92 - because she lost to ASV, Novotna, Garrison types before finals.

Got it?


:cool:

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 4th, 2004, 07:44 AM
Graf won.
Because she reached almost all finals again.
Which she didn't in 90/92.
And as Graf has a career 78.2 % finals-winning percentage she won most tournaments in 93/95. What she couldn't do in her slump years 90/92 - because she lost to ASV, Novotna, Garrison types before finals.

Got it?


:cool:

Graf won? how funny where did you ever get that?

Parche ended Seles' incredible record of 3 straight at the Australian, French and WTA Championships and her 2 consecutively at the U.S. Open when he stabbed this teenage phenom in the back with a sharp knife.

Who was the beneficiary? The girl Parche stabbed world number one Seles for --second ranked Steffi Graf. :angel:

Calimero377
Sep 4th, 2004, 07:54 AM
Graf won? how funny where did you ever get that?

Parche ended Seles' incredible record of 3 straight at the Australian, French and WTA Championships and her 2 consecutively at the U.S. Open when he stabbed this teenage phenom in the back with a sharp knife.

Who was the beneficiary? ... :angel:

All the other players.
Same when Graf slumped big time in 90/92 (Sabatini, Novotna, Garrison, ASV et al. profiting). Or was injured in 97/98.
Or had to see her dad thrown into prison in 95. Wait, Graf continued to win then ......
:worship: :worship:

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 4th, 2004, 08:02 AM
All the other players.
Same when Graf slumped big time in 90/92 (Sabatini, Novotna, Garrison, ASV et al. profiting). Or was injured in 97/98.
Or had to see her dad thrown into prison in 95. Wait, Graf continued to win then ......
:worship: :worship:

We do know what happened when the stabbing took place. Steffi found herself winning 4 major events she had not won in a long time because the one who had been winning them (Seles) had been stabbed in the back with a sharp knife. :angel:

Calimero377
Sep 4th, 2004, 08:08 AM
We do know what happened when the stabbing took place. Steffi found herself winning 4 major events she had not won in a long time because the one who had been winning them (Seles) had been stabbed in the back with a sharp knife. :angel:


Steffi did win them because she did reach the finals.
12 out 14 in 93/96.
Between summer 90 and end of 92 she only made 4 out of 9 slam finals ...

We will never know whether Seles would have reached most of those finals in 93/95.
Considering her 91/92 performance she would.
Considering her 89/90/96/97/98/99/00/01/02/03 performance she wouldn't.

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 4th, 2004, 08:13 AM
Steffi did win them because she did reach the finals.
12 out 14 in 93/96.
Between summer 90 and end of 92 she only made 4 out of 9 slam finals ...

We will never know whether Seles would have reached most of those finals in 93/95.
Considering her 91/92 performance she would.
Considering her 89/90/96/97/98/99/00/01/02/03 performance she wouldn't.


" I just haven't quite figured out how to beat her"..........

------#2 Steffi Graf.......
after her demoralizing loss to #1 Monica Seles at the Australian Open Finals, 1993.......3 months before the stabbing...

Maybe you're just too OBSESSED with Stefanie Graf that you have this delusional sick idea that Graf was ever better than Seles. :angel:

Calimero377
Sep 4th, 2004, 08:16 AM
" I just haven't quite figured out how to beat her"..........

------#2 Steffi Graf.......
after her demoralizing loss to #1 Monica Seles at the Australian Open Finals, 1993.......3 months before the stabbing...
.....

Give me the transcript of that interview.
Actually Graf never said this.

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 4th, 2004, 08:22 AM
Give me the transcript of that interview.
Actually Graf never said this.

Such a shame. How sad... You should know being Graf's #1 obsessed fan in this board. Are you not paying attention to every word that Ms. Graf is saying?

Seek and you will find it. :angel:

"I just haven't quite figured out how to beat her"..........

------#2 Steffi Graf.......
after her demoralizing loss to #1 Monica Seles at the Australian Open Finals, 1993.......3 months before the stabbing...

Maybe you're just too OBSESSED with Stefanie Graf that you have this delusional sick idea that Graf was ever better than Seles. :angel:

USOPEN1000
Sep 4th, 2004, 10:18 AM
Graf won.
Because she reached almost all finals again.
Which she didn't in 90/92.
And as Graf has a career 78.2 % finals-winning percentage she won most tournaments in 93/95. What she couldn't do in her slump years 90/92 - because she lost to ASV, Novotna, Garrison types before finals.

Got it?


:cool:

COURTESY OF GOLDEN PARCHE?????? :tape: :tape: :tape: :tape: :tape: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

MONICA SELES GREATEST EVER :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

Monica_Rules
Sep 4th, 2004, 01:30 PM
Seles fans there is no points arguing with the Graf fans on this board.They are ignorant and will not accept anything but Steffi was the greatest and when anyone else dominated it was down to her having a 'slump'.

We should take the moral high ground not argue and know that we are right about what happened 1990-1993.

JCF
Sep 4th, 2004, 01:32 PM
Why the need to write so big :confused:

Doraemon
Sep 4th, 2004, 01:35 PM
USOpen1000's reputation is red hot now.. on fire!
Get it over with folks. It's more than ten years since that took place.
Life moves on and earth keesp on spinning and my heart continues to beat.
Let's rest the case and put it in the past.

Calimero377
Sep 4th, 2004, 01:41 PM
USOpen1000's reputation is red hot now.. on fire!
Get it over with folks. It's more than ten years since that took place.
Life moves on and earth keesp on spinning and my heart continues to beat.
Let's rest the case and put it in the past.


Why?
When it's fun?
At least for the Graf fans ....

;)

Doraemon
Sep 4th, 2004, 01:43 PM
It's never been fun for anyone but some psychos and it should never be.
I think Monica Seles would have won 1000 slams by now.

Calimero377
Sep 4th, 2004, 01:50 PM
It's never been fun for anyone but some psychos and it should never be.
I think Monica Seles would have won 1000 slams by now.

You are partially right.
Seles fans who try to denigrate Graf are psychos.
But there are Tennisfans For the Truth like me who are willing to stem their tide.

BTW, they didn't play 1000 slams since the stabbing but only 46!
OK, you are a typical Seles fan .....

:D

bandabou
Sep 4th, 2004, 04:12 PM
Steffi did win them because she did reach the finals.
12 out 14 in 93/96.
Between summer 90 and end of 92 she only made 4 out of 9 slam finals ...

We will never know whether Seles would have reached most of those finals in 93/95.
Considering her 91/92 performance she would.
Considering her 89/90/96/97/98/99/00/01/02/03 performance she wouldn't.

which ones do you think are more telling?! Considering she hadnīt lose in like 4 years at both the French and the Oz opens, I think she would have done plenty well there without the stabbing....and considering she even reached two finals at the Open after the stabbing, I think itīd be fair bet to say she would have reached the finals there too sans stabbing.

Bероника
Sep 4th, 2004, 05:19 PM
That Calimero377 psycho is like the sickest person I've read on this board,and believe me I've read way too many.Do you feel so insecure about the ugly Graf's achievements that you constantly have to make fun & down such a great player,that many of us admire,like Monica Seles?It's pathetic and sick.I want to think not all Graf fans are like that,but I can say I know at least 2 that are sick.Is such cruelty and bad behaviour needed?I never felt the need to use that ignore button thing,but this being will make me start using it because if I read more of his crap I'll vomit or I'll send bad rep with no end,and really,I don't want to lose my time with such unworthy "person".

irma
Sep 4th, 2004, 05:49 PM
That Calimero377 psycho is like the sickest person I've read on this board,and believe me I've read way too many.Do you feel so insecure about the ugly Graf's achievements that you constantly have to make fun & down such a great player,that many of us admire,like Monica Seles?It's pathetic and sick.I want to think not all Graf fans are like that,but I can say I know at least 2 that are sick.Is such cruelty and bad behaviour needed?I never felt the need to use that ignore button thing,but this being will make me start using it because if I read more of his crap I'll vomit or I'll send bad rep with no end,and really,I don't want to lose my time with such unworthy "person".
yeah it's pathetic and sick to downgrade and insult people

oh wait you have all right to insults and put achievements down

I forget we live in a double standards world :rolleyes:

irma
Sep 4th, 2004, 06:02 PM
that's what makes me puke. always a so called monica fan starts to bash steffi, then a steffi fans come and reacts and then monica fans come "oh those bad steffi fans" how dare they to say anything negative blah. blah. blah

it's so fucking hypocrite and I don't like when steffi fans are insulting monica, or the opposite. it's only the hypocrite that makes me wanna puke

and sorry for cursing but I have had it :rolleyes:

and don't come we have a right to say how much steffi sucks because of this and that or we just want to tell how great monica is. That's bullshit.

Bероника
Sep 4th, 2004, 06:14 PM
Yes,when my favourite player is being attacked in a thread that was meant to compliment and celebrate her achievements,I get very angry,like a mad dog.And when I'm mad I attack.Call me strange but I don't like my favourite player to be attacked for no reason.And when I come into a thread whose tiltle is solely about Monica Seles,I don't know what the fuck there are some Graf fans entering it to put their negativity into picture.If I had read Seles-Graf in the tittle of the thread I'd had run miles away not to read those morons,believe me.
Wether Graf fans want to accept it or not,Monica Seles is a very important person for her fans and not only because of her tennis merits.Monica made many of us start playing tennis and I've been looking at her as an example of strength in the tough times.When all the rest went down,there was always Monica,Monica and her fighting spirit,Monica overcoming obstacles,Monica eclipsing everything else with her magic tennis.And there's no stupid crazy Parche,nor any other Graf fan who is gonna delete it.Never.

I still don't see the need to come into a thread dedicated to a player that you're not even a fan of and put her down.But maybe this "person" is obsessed with Monica.I don't know.I guess he probably is.

irma
Sep 4th, 2004, 06:21 PM
Wether Graf fans want to accept it or not,Monica Seles is a very important person for her fans and not only because of her tennis merits.Monica made many of us start playing tennis and I've been looking at her as an example of strength in the tough times.When all the rest went down,there was always Monica,Monica and her fighting spirit,Monica overcoming obstacles,Monica eclipsing everything else with her magic tennis.And there's no stupid crazy Parche,nor any other Graf fan who is gonna delete it.Never.


and whether you want to accept it many Steffi fans feel the same about Steffi and nobody will change that either. I accept really Monica fans, but they don't insult Steffi to make Monica look better. imho really Steffi fans don't bash Monica either to make Steffi look better! and being a steffi fan is not less sincere or worse then being a monica fan and that's a 100% fact too!

and this thread was not meant to honour monica. really if you read any posts here then you know that!

Bероника
Sep 4th, 2004, 06:23 PM
that's what makes me puke. always a so called monica fan starts to bash steffi, then a steffi fans come and reacts and then monica fans come "oh those bad steffi fans" how dare they to say anything negative blah. blah. blah

it's so fucking hypocrite and I don't like when steffi fans are insulting monica, or the opposite. it's only the hypocrite that makes me wanna puke

and sorry for cursing but I have had it :rolleyes:

and don't come we have a right to say how much steffi sucks because of this and that or we just want to tell how great monica is. That's bullshit.

The thread was started to bash Steffi?Maybe we have different perceptions of reality,but the first post of the thread is an article about Monica Seles,how good she was and how even better she could have been.

Believe,we us Seles don't even think about Graf nowadays.And yeah if Monica is attacked I'll defend her,not one,but a million times if it's worth.
And I'm sorry if me finding the Graf fans "bad"( I was only speaking about that Calimero thing,the one who brought the negatuvity into the thread)makes you puke,you go ahead and puke,but I don't think any other better word to describe someone who's making jokes about Monica,about Holocaust and other serious matters.I don't see what's so fun laughing at other people's disgrace.Maybe I'm hoping too much of people...

bandabou
Sep 4th, 2004, 06:24 PM
and whether you want to accept it many Steffi fans feel the same about Steffi and nobody will change that either. I accept really Monica fans, but they don't insult Steffi to make Monica look better. imho really Steffi fans don't bash Monica either to make Steffi look better! and being a steffi fan is not less sincere or worse then being a monica fan and that's a 100% fact too!

and this thread was not meant to honour monica. really if you read any posts here then you know that!


So u mean the calimeroīs and ldvtennis of this world arenīt real Steffi fans?! Hmmm....interesting. Because to them NOBODY EVER beat Steffi. Never ever.

Bероника
Sep 4th, 2004, 06:30 PM
and whether you want to accept it many Steffi fans feel the same about Steffi and nobody will change that either. I accept really Monica fans, but they don't insult Steffi to make Monica look better. imho really Steffi fans don't bash Monica either to make Steffi look better! and being a steffi fan is not less sincere or worse then being a monica fan and that's a 100% fact too!

and this thread was not meant to honour monica. really if you read any posts here then you know that!

exactly,and that's perfect.I wasn't saying the contrary.That's how it should be!!!I was just speaking on my personal experience.Of couse,as I'm not a Graf fan,I was speaking about Monica.But of course Graf fans feel that way too.I think we agree on the basic.What I don't understand is that other way of taking things...Maybe I'm just stupid but i don't understand taking things that far.Tennis is only a game.For fun.It should remain fun.I just don't understand the negativity. :confused:

Anyway,as I said,I have better things to do.So I'm going to support Eleni :wavey:

Kart
Sep 4th, 2004, 06:31 PM
The intended beneficiary was able to be unjustly enriched by winning all 5 major events consecutively in 1993 and grabbed the number one ranking AFTER Monica Seles had been stabbed. (Keep in mind that Seles was the 3-time defending champion of the French, WTA and Australian Open Championships and she was the 2-time defending champion of the U.S. Open when the attack took place.) :angel:
I'm well versed in the events of 1993 thank you. It changes nothing. Steffi Graf is not responsible for what happened to Monica Seles. Most sane people know that.

veronika :hug: and irma :hug: don't let this thread get to you.

irma
Sep 4th, 2004, 06:36 PM
exactly,and that's perfect.I wasn't saying the contrary.That's how it should be!!!I was just speaking on my personal experience.Of couse,as I'm not a Graf fan,I was speaking about Monica.But of course Graf fans feel that way too.I think we agree on the basic.What I don't understand is that other way of taking things...Maybe I'm just stupid but i don't understand taking things that far.Tennis is only a game.For fun.It should remain fun.I just don't understand the negativity. :confused:

Anyway,as I said,I have better things to do.So I'm going to support Eleni :wavey:
Bingo, I don't understand it either.
It should be fun but all these threads (and I say it again if you read all posts of the thread starter then you know that he doesn't want to honour monica. he is just using her. 100%) really make the fun go away and that counts for fans of both sides!

irma
Sep 4th, 2004, 06:38 PM
I'm well versed in the events of 1993 thank you. It changes nothing. Steffi Graf is not responsible for what happened to Monica Seles. Most sane people know that.

veronika :hug: and irma :hug: don't let this thread get to you.
Kart :kiss:

Bероника
Sep 4th, 2004, 06:43 PM
I'm well versed in the events of 1993 thank you. It changes nothing. Steffi Graf is not responsible for what happened to Monica Seles. Most sane people know that.

veronika :hug: and irma :hug: don't let this thread get to you.

It's ok,Kart. :kiss: I'm very happy at the moment since Eleni is leading in her match and as I can not change that people spread negativity, I better focus on the positive things of life. ;)

Bероника
Sep 4th, 2004, 06:47 PM
Bingo, I don't understand it either.
It should be fun but all these threads (and I say it again if you read all posts of the thread starter then you know that he doesn't want to honour monica. he is just using her. 100%) really make the fun go away and that counts for fans of both sides!

It's ok Irma. :D I don't know the starter user and I have not read all the threads by this user (have you? :eek: ).I unfortunately don't have many time to read all so I focus on the threads about my faves,that's why I ended up in this one.I usually don't read the Graf-Seles debates because there's too much animosity there.Anyway,it's ok.I think we agree.Peace. :kiss:

irma
Sep 4th, 2004, 06:51 PM
It's ok Irma. :D I don't know the starter user and I have not read all the threads by this user (have you? :eek: ).I unfortunately don't have many time to read all so I focus on the threads about my faves,that's why I ended up in this one.I usually don't read the Graf-Seles debates because there's too much animosity there.Anyway,it's ok.I think we agree.Peace. :kiss:
http://smileys.******************/cat/11/11_12_1.gif (http://www.******************/?partner=ZSzeb001) ;)

Bероника
Sep 4th, 2004, 07:00 PM
lol such a cool smilie,the first one I mean.I think it was needed ;)

Calimero377
Sep 4th, 2004, 07:01 PM
which ones do you think are more telling?! Considering she hadnīt lose in like 4 years at both the French and the Oz opens, I think she would have done plenty well there without the stabbing....and considering she even reached two finals at the Open after the stabbing, I think itīd be fair bet to say she would have reached the finals there too sans stabbing.

Well, 10 years vs. 2 years.
Two great years - but 10 mediocre years.
Hmm ....

You think because Venus and Serena reached finals or even won them for 2 consecutive years in the past they would do the same the next 2 years?
And Hingis?
And Capriati?
Interesting theory?

Can you give me some stats?
How many double-USO winners did win a third & forth consecutive final there?
What about AO, Wimbledon & FO?
Please elaborate ....


After WW2 only 3 of 13 double-USO winners (back-to-back) went on to win it a third consecutive time (23 %). And only ONE (Evert) did it even a 4th time.

One of four 3-time AO winners made it a 4th time (25 %).

You forget what it means to reach a final. You have to win 6 matches.
And Seles had some very close calls in 91/92 before the finals. You can't count to win them all the time.
But we KNOW which finals Graf made. A lot .....

:wavey:

Calimero377
Sep 4th, 2004, 07:02 PM
That Calimero377 psycho is like the sickest person I've read on this board,and believe me I've read way too many.Do you feel so insecure about the ugly Graf's achievements that you constantly have to make fun & down such a great player,that many of us admire,like Monica Seles?It's pathetic and sick.I want to think not all Graf fans are like that,but I can say I know at least 2 that are sick.Is such cruelty and bad behaviour needed?I never felt the need to use that ignore button thing,but this being will make me start using it because if I read more of his crap I'll vomit or I'll send bad rep with no end,and really,I don't want to lose my time with such unworthy "person".


Truth hurts, Vroni .....


:wavey:

Calimero377
Sep 4th, 2004, 07:10 PM
The thread was started to bash Steffi?Maybe we have different perceptions of reality,but the first post of the thread is an article about Monica Seles,how good she was and how even better she could have been.

Believe,we us Seles don't even think about Graf nowadays.And yeah if Monica is attacked I'll defend her,not one,but a million times if it's worth.
And I'm sorry if me finding the Graf fans "bad"( I was only speaking about that Calimero thing,the one who brought the negatuvity into the thread)makes you puke,you go ahead and puke,but I don't think any other better word to describe someone who's making jokes about Monica,about Holocaust and other serious matters.I don't see what's so fun laughing at other people's disgrace.Maybe I'm hoping too much of people...


A Seles fan told us that The Stabbing was one of darkest hours of mankind.
I just reminded him of the Holocaust, Stalin's crimes etc.
To put things into perspective.

Even in SPORTS there are some REAL tragedies. Eg. people DYING in car or plane crashs. A 1-cm stab wound is not among them, Vroni ......


:wavey:

bandabou
Sep 4th, 2004, 07:11 PM
Well, 10 years vs. 2 years.
Two great years - but 10 mediocre years.
Hmm ....

You think because Venus and Serena reached finals or even won them for 2 consecutive years in the past they would do the same the next 2 years?
And Hingis?
And Capriati?
Interesting theory?

Can you give me some stats?
How many double-USO winners did win a third & forth consecutive final there?
What about AO, Wimbledon & FO?
Please elaborate ....


After WW2 only 3 of 13 double-USO winners (back-to-back) went on to win it a third consecutive time (23 %). And only ONE (Evert) did it even a 4th time.

One of four 3-time AO winners made it a 4th time (25 %).

You forget what it means to reach a final. You have to win 6 matches.
And Seles had some very close calls in 91/92 before the finals. You can't count to win them all the time.
But we KNOW which finals Graf made. A lot .....

:wavey:


I guess we will never know.....

bandabou
Sep 4th, 2004, 07:16 PM
Come on cali..someone stabbing you isnīt real?! You might not find it a tragedy, but it was real...it wasnīt a thing of imagination.

Imagination was what so many germans believed: That they were a superior race. That russians and jewish people were inferior. THAT was imagination.

Yet they still believed it...amazing.

Calimero377
Sep 4th, 2004, 07:16 PM
exactly,and that's perfect.I wasn't saying the contrary.That's how it should be!!!I was just speaking on my personal experience.Of couse,as I'm not a Graf fan,I was speaking about Monica.But of course Graf fans feel that way too.I think we agree on the basic.What I don't understand is that other way of taking things...Maybe I'm just stupid but i don't understand taking things that far.Tennis is only a game.For fun.It should remain fun.I just don't understand the negativity. :confused:

Anyway,as I said,I have better things to do.So I'm going to support Eleni :wavey:


I respect real Seles fans. Actually I know some in RL.
But when rabid Selesians start the woulda-coulda game to discredit Graf they have to taste their own medicine. If I annoy honorable Seles fans in the process then that's an unfortunate collateral damage only.

But be fair.
Compare what those sick Selesians say about Steffi here to what I say about Seles. They are far worse (eg. "Steffi & Parche, the best doubles team" and so on; "hollow slam wins" et. pp.).

I like Seles very much.
Some of her matches are my all-time favourites.
:D

Calimero377
Sep 4th, 2004, 07:33 PM
Kart :kiss:


I have been wondering for weeks:
What's going on there with Irma & Kart?

:angel:

Calimero377
Sep 4th, 2004, 07:38 PM
Come on cali..someone stabbing you isnīt real?! You might not find it a tragedy, but it was real...it wasnīt a thing of imagination.
...

Oops, who said it was an imagination?


.
....
Imagination was what so many germans believed: That they were a superior race. That russians and jewish people were inferior. THAT was imagination.

Yet they still believed it...amazing.


"Amazing" perhaps is not the right word for it ...
BTW, what did you lead to the "superior race" theme in the first place?

:wavey:

R&J
Sep 4th, 2004, 07:39 PM
I put Calimero377 on my ignore list a long time ago. I see that it was a good decision after all.

Calimero377
Sep 4th, 2004, 07:49 PM
I put Calimero377 on my ignore list a long time ago. I see that it was a good decision after all.


This coming from a rabid Seles fan means the highest form of praise. Wow!
I don't write here & stem the tide of ignorance because of posters like you.
You are beyond redemption ....

But when from time to time some innocent newbies start reading here about Graf & Seles - what would happen without Tennisfans for the Truth like me?
Horror of horrors, they might even start to believe that Monica Seles was a greater player than Steffi Graf!
Yes - could happen!!

And therefore in all eternity I'll roam the internet to protect the legacy of Ms. Stefanie Maria Graf.


:wavey:

bandabou
Sep 4th, 2004, 07:54 PM
Oops, who said it was an imagination?





"Amazing" perhaps is not the right word for it ...
BTW, what did you lead to the "superior race" theme in the first place?

:wavey:


Didnīt you say that the stabbing wasnīt a real tragedy?!

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 4th, 2004, 08:43 PM
Didnīt you say that the stabbing wasnīt a real tragedy?!

SO WE LOOK AT THE 12 BIGGEST SINGLES TITLES IN WOMEN'S TENNIS DURING THE 30 MONTHS BEFORE THE STABBING:

1990 1991 1992 1993 1994


1990 WTA Championships MONICA SELES
1991 Australian Open MONICA SELES
1991 French Open MONICA SELES

1991 Wimbledon STEFFI GRAF

1991 U.S. Open MONICA SELES
1991 WTA Championships MONICA SELES
1992 Australian Open MONICA SELES
1992 French Open MONICA SELES

1992 Wimbledon STEFFI GRAF

1992 U.S. Open MONICA SELES
1992 WTA Championships MONICA SELES
1993 Australian Open MONICA SELES


Seles was just a teenager when she was stabbed ... however, she was the 3-time defending champion of the Australian Open ... the 3-time defending champion of the French Open ... the 3-time defending champion of the WTA Tour Championships ... and, 2-time defending champion of the U.S. Open.

In fact, no player in women's tennis history has won more than the 10 out of 12 major singles titles that Monica Seles won in those 30 months before being stabbed in April 1990 --- although Martina Navratilova in her prime 10 years earlier managed to match that 10 of the 12 biggest singles titles played consecutively.

Monica Seles was the ONLY player in women's tennis to win 2 of the 5 biggest singles titles in women's tennis in 1990 ... 1991 ... 1992 ... and the ONLY player to win a Grand Slam singles title in 1993 before she was stabbed in 1993 by a Steffi Graf fan.

Of course, then we had the stabbing of Monica Seles by a jealous Steffi Graf fan. :angel:

LDVTennis
Sep 5th, 2004, 01:01 AM
Seles fans there is no points arguing with the Graf fans on this board.They are ignorant and will not accept anything but Steffi was the greatest and when anyone else dominated it was down to her having a 'slump'.

We should take the moral high ground not argue and know that we are right about what happened 1990-1993.

Ignorant, you say...

Calimero and I will put up our academic credentials against yours any day. Okay, pull out the Ph.D. or the jurisprudence degree. I want to see it. That's right. Just what I thought.

That is why there is no point in arguing with us. We are older, smarter and we have more money.

tennisiscool
Sep 5th, 2004, 01:02 AM
We are older, smarter and we have more money.
All the three morons (actually four if u include nari) have assembled in this thread. Its now complete just like i said it would :)

Calimero377
Sep 5th, 2004, 01:08 AM
Ignorant, you say...

Calimero and I will put up our academic credentials against yours any day. Okay, pull out the Ph.D. or the jurisprudence degree. I want to see it. That's right. Just what I thought.

That is why there is no point in arguing with us. We are older, smarter and we have more money.


Exactly!
And when this Graf bashing doesn't stop soon LDVTennis and me will buy WTAWorld and throw all Selesians out of here!

BTW, "older" - how do you mean that .... ?
:confused:

Better say "more mature" .....

:angel:

Calimero377
Sep 5th, 2004, 01:14 AM
All the three morons (actually four if u include nari) have assembled in this thread. Its now complete just like i said it would :)


USOPEN1000 who started this thread, Ladiez Champion and tennisiscool - of course. But why nari? He seems to be a member of the "Tennisfans for the Truth"!

LDVTennis
Sep 5th, 2004, 01:22 AM
All the three morons (actually four if u include nari) have assembled in this thread. Its now complete just like i said it would :)

Who looks worse? You for saying that I am a moron, or me for saying that it says a lot about your character that without any direct provocation from me you somehow feel compelled to call me a moron.

If you have something substantial to contribute to the current topic, I would like to see it. I may even read it and respond in a rational way. If, however, all you are going to do is insult people, you must recognize that I honestly don't respect you enough to think that anything you have to say could be insulting. So, why waste your time!

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 5th, 2004, 02:06 AM
Exactly!
And when this Graf bashing doesn't stop soon LDVTennis and me will buy WTAWorld and throw all Selesians out of here!

BTW, "older" - how do you mean that .... ?
:confused:

Better say "more mature" .....

:angel:

How sad. Very sad.---Psychosis is a mental disorder characterized by loss of contact with reality (having delusions and hallucinations), and exhibiting regressive behavior and attitudes (diminished control of elementary impulses and desires).

Monica Seles was the more superior player than Steffi Garff. And nothing can ever change that. :angel:

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 5th, 2004, 02:12 AM
This coming from a rabid Seles fan means the highest form of praise. Wow!
I don't write here & stem the tide of ignorance because of posters like you.
You are beyond redemption ....

But when from time to time some innocent newbies start reading here about Graf & Seles - what would happen without Tennisfans for the Truth like me?
Horror of horrors, they might even start to believe that Monica Seles was a greater player than Steffi Graf!
Yes - could happen!!

And therefore in all eternity I'll roam the internet to protect the legacy of Ms. Stefanie Maria Graf.


:wavey:

Protect the legacy of Golden Parche?

Monica Seles was obviously the more superior player than Steffi Garff. Not even the biggest Graf psycho fan of all Gunther Parche can ever change that. :angel:

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 5th, 2004, 02:30 AM
I'm well versed in the events of 1993 thank you. It changes nothing. Steffi Graf is not responsible for what happened to Monica Seles. Most sane people know that.

veronika :hug: and irma :hug: don't let this thread get to you.

Setffi is the least admired among the tennis players in recent years. I wasn't impressed with garf's handling of the seles stabbing, I am not impressed with setffi's recent commentary about her greatest rivals, and how insecure and dismissive she was on monica. I am not impressed with her total inactivity in support of the WTA, and i am not alone ( count Evert, BJK, and Martina in that as well), I think Garf is a terrible ambassador to the sport, and i think i am not alone...........etc etc etc.....but most of all, I am not impressed with those who choose to follow her, her fanatics, so to speak. you can say alot about soemone from their followers, and setffi fans, to me, seem to be a very sad bunch......

But i will say one thing about setffi...she seems to have grown UP alot since starting a family.....but monica seems to me the more evolved, fascinating figure.....

Ever wondered why Monica is much more admired and respected among her peers and in the tennis world? :angel:

nari
Sep 5th, 2004, 02:44 AM
I am a graf fan
I despise seles

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 5th, 2004, 02:46 AM
USOPEN1000 who started this thread, Ladiez Champion and tennisiscool - of course. But why nari? He seems to be a member of the "Tennisfans for the Truth"!

Nari and Calimero377 are the same poster and should have banned a long time ago from posting in this great message board.

But, i'm glad that USOPEN1000 was able to give this looney a dose of his own medicine.

Well, what can we really expect from a Garf fanatic. Just think about Gunther Parche..... :angel:

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 5th, 2004, 02:50 AM
I am a graf fan
I despise seles

how sad. was it because your girl couldn't get to the number one without the stabbing:angel:

nari
Sep 5th, 2004, 03:01 AM
how sad. was it because your girl couldn't get to the number one without the stabbing:angel:
because I am I :)

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 5th, 2004, 03:27 AM
because I am I :)

No make any sense at all. how sad. :angel:

USOPEN10000
Sep 5th, 2004, 05:22 AM
A Seles fan told us that The Stabbing was one of darkest hours of mankind.
I just reminded him of the Holocaust, Stalin's crimes etc.
To put things into perspective.

Even in SPORTS there are some REAL tragedies. Eg. people DYING in car or plane crashs. A 1-cm stab wound is not among them, Vroni ......


:wavey:

*****THE SELESIANS ARE OBVIOUSLY DOMINATING AND OVERPOWERING THE RABID GRAFIANS ON THE ONGOING DEBATE ON THIS MESSAGE BOARD************* :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:



STEFFI INDEED BENEFITTED FROM OF ONE THE DARKEST HOURS OF MANKIND--THE STABBING OF #1 MONICA SELES. :lol: :lol:

MONICA SELES RATTLED AND SQUASH STEFFI GRAF AT THE HEIGHT OF THEIR RIVALRY WINNING 8 SLAMS TO GRAF'S 2 :lol: :lol: :lol: . :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 5th, 2004, 08:37 AM
Why?
When it's fun?
At least for the Graf fans ....

;)

Calimero,

You make these absurd conclusions from another obscure set ( then it gets laughable), and you simply WON"T STOP.......

why is this so important to you? Why can't you just accept the fact that garf was number two to seles in the early 90's, and get over it?

It's HISTORY....the more you argue, the less effective you sound......your last posts are so pointless, but even worse, twisted fantasy.....

please move on, and accept the fact that you cannot win......

in the end, everyone will remember one thing......Monica was number one, garf number two, and the stabbing changed that......

How sad for a person not realizing yet that there's more to life than Setffi Garf who btw, is long forgotten. very very sad indeed.. :angel:

Calimero377
Sep 5th, 2004, 11:41 AM
Calimero,

You make these absurd conclusions from another obscure set ( then it gets laughable), and you simply WON"T STOP.......

why is this so important to you? Why can't you just accept the fact that garf was number two to seles in the early 90's, and get over it?
:

Weeks at #1 in the early 90ies before the stabbing:

Seles:103
Garf: zero
Graf: 66

Biggest lead for Graf: 183 pts.
Biggest lead for Seles: 58 pts.

Daniel
Sep 5th, 2004, 01:22 PM
Monica :worship:

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 6th, 2004, 06:14 AM
Weeks at #1 in the early 90ies before the stabbing:

Seles:103
Garf: zero
Graf: 66

Biggest lead for Graf: 183 pts.
Biggest lead for Seles: 58 pts.

Here's some excerpts of an interview with Steffi Graf ( November 1993) 8 months after the violent stabbing of Monica Seles-- and after winning consecutive slams namely the 1993 French, 1993 Wimbledon and the 1993 US Open and taking over the number one ranking from the very injured Seles.

Graf lost the 1993 Australian Open Finals to Seles three months before the stabbing.

November 1993
Steffi Graf
Interview by: DIETER SCHÖN
New York

WELT am SONNTAG: Ms. Graf, 1993 was very successful for you. Are you
satisfied?

Graf: To win three of four Grand Slams and to be in the final of the
other - that is extremely good. Yes, I am satisfied.

WaS: Though your success will also always be compared with what might
have been if Monica Seles hadn't been injured. How do you handle that?

Graf: I see it quite realistically. Of course the people are right,
and I might not have won one title or another, if Monica would have
played........

WaS: Do you regret that Monica Seles isn't around at the moment?

Graf: That is correct. When the number one is missing, something is missing......
__________________________________________________ __________

straight from the horses mouth..... Debate has been won by a knockout--case closed. :angel:

Philbo
Sep 6th, 2004, 07:16 AM
Its just Sooooooooooo pathetic how Graf fans write off Monica's DOMINATION as the 'slump years' for Graf. They were slump years because Seles had knocked her off the perch and other players werent as intimidated - same as whats goin on with Venus and Serena now.

Monica Seles was the dominant player of the sport of tennis at the time of her attack. Grabbing stats from here and there wont change that fact - Monica Seles at the time of the stabbing was the French Open Champion, The US Open Champion and the Australia Open Champion - she had been the Australian Champ for 3 years, the French Champ for 2 years and the US Open champ for 2 years. How can anyone argue that she wasnt dominant??

Oh thats right - they're "Graffanatics' and logic and reason do not apply to that type of tennis fan - they like to live in their fantasy la la land of make believe...

Monica was robbed, Graf was handed titles in a silver platter, end of story.

Calimero377
Sep 6th, 2004, 09:41 PM
Its just Sooooooooooo pathetic how Graf fans write off Monica's DOMINATION as the 'slump years' for Graf. They were slump years because Seles had knocked her off the perch and other players werent as intimidated - same as whats goin on with Venus and Serena now.
...


Seles beat Graf twice in May/June 1990. The first win came 3 days after the Graf sex/blackmail scandal exploded in the tabloids.
Seles didn't beat Graf again until TWO YEARS later, the famous 10-8-in-3rd at FO.

After her two losses against Seles in 1990 Graf was still #1 for TEN MONTHS. She was better than Seles over ther rest of 1990.
But she lost to Garrison in Wimbledon and twice to Sabatini (USO, VSC).

Then she lost to Novotna at AO 91 (still as #1). Then Monica took over the top spot. In the next 10 weeks Graf BEAT Monica twice, but lost FOUR TIMES to Sabatini.

Funny, Graf was intimidated by Seles - and that caused her to beat Seles and to lose to Sabatini (6 times), Novotna, Garrison ...

You don't mind if I call you "superdumbo", do you?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

(OMG, why are so many Selesians that "intellectually challenged"?)
:confused:

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 7th, 2004, 05:07 AM
Seles beat Graf twice in May/June 1990. The first win came 3 days after the Graf sex/blackmail scandal exploded in the tabloids.
Seles didn't beat Graf again until TWO YEARS later, the famous 10-8-in-3rd at FO.

After her two losses against Seles in 1990 Graf was still #1 for TEN MONTHS. She was better than Seles over ther rest of 1990.
But she lost to Garrison in Wimbledon and twice to Sabatini (USO, VSC).

Then she lost to Novotna at AO 91 (still as #1). Then Monica took over the top spot. In the next 10 weeks Graf BEAT Monica twice, but lost FOUR TIMES to Sabatini.

Funny, Graf was intimidated by Seles - and that caused her to beat Seles and to lose to Sabatini (6 times), Novotna, Garrison ...

You don't mind if I call you "superdumbo", do you?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

(OMG, why are so many Selesians that "intellectually challenged"?)
:confused:

" Mental disturbance of serious magnitude that may be characterized by loss of contact with reality. Delusions and hallucinations are often present. " Super Dumbo??? Very sad indeed :angel: ************************************************** *******
A player who is claimed by some Graf fanatics to be the best of of ALL time does not have to rely on the #1 ranked player in the world (who is just a tennager and #1 for consecutive years while winning 9 of the 11 biggest events in the sport over a period of more than 2 years) being stabbed in the back with a knife.

The Monica Seles incident in Hamburg, Germany at the end of April in 1993 -- especially when you take into consideration how dominant the young teenage Seles was in the months November 1990 through April 1993 -- SEALS it that Graf was not the best of all time.

Graf was in the middle of her career in the early 1990s -- and yet Seles as a teenager was the one ranked #1 and the one winning 9 of those 11 biggest titles between November 1990 and January 1993 -- and this, within itself, eliminates Graf from consideration as the top woman tennis player of all time.

SO WE LOOK AT THE 12 BIGGEST SINGLES TITLES IN WOMEN'S TENNIS DURING THE 30 MONTHS BEFORE THE STABBING:

1990 1991 1992 1993 1994


1990 WTA Championships MONICA SELES
1991 Australian Open MONICA SELES
1991 French Open MONICA SELES

1991 Wimbledon STEFFI GRAF

1991 U.S. Open MONICA SELES
1991 WTA Championships MONICA SELES
1992 Australian Open MONICA SELES
1992 French Open MONICA SELES

1992 Wimbledon STEFFI GRAF

1992 U.S. Open MONICA SELES
1992 WTA Championships MONICA SELES
1993 Australian Open MONICA SELES

Navratilova in her mid 30s (turned 34 in 1990 .. turned 35 in 1991 .. turned 36 in 1992 .. and turned 37 in 1993) had a winning record vs. Graf in the 1990s prior to the stabbing of Monica Seles in April 1993, including the only match Navratilova and Graf played against each other in a Grand Slam singles match during the 1990s.

Steffi was almost 18 years of age before she was able to win back to back matches against Navratilova for the first time. Of course, Navratilova was over 30 years of age by then.

The first time that Graf was able to win MORE than just 2 matches consecutively vs. Navratilova was when Graf was over 19 years of age and when Navratilova was close to the age Andre Agassi is now.

STILL .. Navratilova in her mid to upper 30s had a winning record vs. Graf in the years 1990-1993, including Martina winning the only match between the 2 at a Grand Slam event during the 1990s.


Seles, of course, as a top ranked teen phenom in the years 1990 through 1993, had a winning record vs. Graf as well before a jealous Steffi Graf fan stabbed Seles in the back with a knife.


1989 Brighton International (Brighton) Final 7-5, 6-4 Steffi Graf
1989 Roland Garros (Paris) Semifinal 6-3, 3-6, 6-3 Steffi Graf
1989 Wimbledon (London) 4th round 6-0, 6-1 Steffi Graf

***Monica made her professional debut in 1989 at 15 years of age where she lost all of her matches 0-3 against then world number one Steffi Graf who made her professional debut in 1983 and was four (4) years older than Seles.***

***But from 1990-1993( before the stabbing), Monica Seles took over the top ranking has 4-3 advantage against Graf in head to head match-ups and was 3-1 in Grand Slam Finals against Graf who had fallen to a consistent number two.***

1990 Lufthansa Cup (Berlin) Final 6-4, 6-3 Monica Seles
1990 Roland Garros (Paris) Final 7-6, 6-4 Monica Seles
1991 Citizen Cup (Hambourg) Final 7-5, 6-7 (4-7), 6-3 Steffi Graf
1991 Women's Hardcourt Champs (San Antonio) Final 6-4, 6-3 Steffi Graf
1992 Roland Garros (Paris) Final 6-2, 3-6, 10-8 Monica Seles
1992 Wimbledon (London) Final 6-2, 6-1 Steffi Graf
1993 Australian Open (Melbourne) Final 4-6, 6-3, 6-2 Monica Seles

***Monica Seles also won her very last match against second ranked Graf at the Finals of the 1993 Australian Open***

Based on the 12 biggest events between the end of 1990 and the early part of 1993 there was nothing whatsoever which would suggest that undisputed world number one Monica Seles was not going to continue her dominance over women's tennis going forward.

In addition, no player in women's tennis history has won more than the 10 out of 12 major singles titles that Monica Seles won in those 30 months before being stabbed in April 1990 --- although Martina Navratilova in her prime 10 years earlier managed to match that 10 of the 12 biggest singles titles played consecutively.

Monica Seles was the ONLY player in women's tennis to win 2 of the 5 biggest singles titles in women's tennis in 1990 ... 1991 ... 1992 ... and the ONLY player to win a Grand Slam singles title in 1993 before she was stabbed in 1993 by a Steffi Graf fan.

No way Steffi Graf is the best woman tennis player in tennis history when you consider the truth of Steffi Graf, Martina Navratilova and Monica Seles in the years 1990-1993. Far from it...Not even close.... :angel:


I just haven't quite figured out how to beat her"..........

------Steffi Graf.......
after her loss to Monica Seles at the Australian Open Finals, 1993.......


Steffi Graf's Career in a Nutshell.......

Gunther Parche
and WEAK Competition once Seles was gone. :angel:

Philbo
Sep 7th, 2004, 06:58 AM
Calimero - I know you have an excuse for every match that Graf ever lost on her life, you are a classic Graffanatic - A pyscho fuckwit (by all means call me superdumbo!!!) with no logic or reason -- just a one sided memory...

Seles was stabbed in April 93. At that point, she had won the Australian Open 1991, 1992, 1993, The French Open 1990 1991, 1992, and the US Open 1991 and 1992.

You are clutching at straws mate, Graf was knoccked off her perch... Grab whatever meaningless head to head records and try to twist the numbers to suit your position if you must, Ive seen many a pathetic Graffanatic do the same thing..

tennisjam
Sep 7th, 2004, 07:16 AM
Steffi is a lucky loser :o

Being a bad loser as well, she would have quit in '93 or '94, not wanting to be dominated by Monica :rolleyes:

still for obvious reasons, Steffi is a great champion

yet, her career achievements are partly overrated because of the reason everyone knows and that's the fact :o

from my experience, the two main ideas many people have of Steffi are:

Steffi Graf = great champion

Steffi Graf = player whose sick fan stabbed her only dominating rival

anyway...

williamsharapov
Sep 7th, 2004, 07:37 AM
Here's some excerpts of an interview with Steffi Graf ( November 1993) 8 months after the violent stabbing of Monica Seles-- and after winning consecutive slams namely the 1993 French, 1993 Wimbledon and the 1993 US Open and taking over the number one ranking from the very injured Seles.

Graf lost the 1993 Australian Open Finals to Seles three months before the stabbing.

November 1993
Steffi Graf
Interview by: DIETER SCHÖN
New York

WELT am SONNTAG: Ms. Graf, 1993 was very successful for you. Are you
satisfied?

Graf: To win three of four Grand Slams and to be in the final of the
other - that is extremely good. Yes, I am satisfied.

WaS: Though your success will also always be compared with what might
have been if Monica Seles hadn't been injured. How do you handle that?

Graf: I see it quite realistically. Of course the people are right,
and I might not have won one title or another, if Monica would have
played........

WaS: Do you regret that Monica Seles isn't around at the moment?

Graf: That is correct. When the number one is missing, something is missing......
__________________________________________________ __________

straight from the horses mouth..... Debate has been won by a knockout--case closed. :angel:

the peoples think always about monica. she has strong mind,brave and very enjoyable to watch. she's the bestest and wishing her to commeback. i also like steffi but monica was always playing well much better than steffi when they play one another.

ich liebe dich venus, maria and monica. :wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

LDVTennis
Sep 7th, 2004, 08:31 AM
Steffi Graf's Career in a Nutshell.......

Gunther Parche
and WEAK Competition once Seles was gone.

Weak competition? Did I miss something? Or, perhaps, by some strange temporal anomaly, did Graf find herself playing Billy Jean King, Evonne Goolagong, or even a 16 yo Chris Evert in major finals from late '93 to late '95. Temporal anomalies notwithstanding, to the best of my recollection, Graf beat the same players on her way to major victories from late '93 to late '95 that Seles had been beating from '90 to 'early '93, with one exception, Graf herself. That's right! Seles won all but three of her major titles by beating players other than Graf. From that, one could reasonably conclude that it was Seles who profited from the weak competition from '90 to '93. Other players were beating Graf or Graf was beating herself most of the time. Whatever the case, one thing is for sure --- Seles did not beat Graf to win all of her nine major tournaments. Don't delude yourself into thinking that it was any different, neither the competition nor the opponents in the finals.

From '95 to '99, Steffi also competed against the likes of a more versatile ASV, Hingis, Davenport, Venus and Serena. In '96, ASV presented more of a challenge to Graf than Monica. First of all, because ASV was a more versatile player, capable of performing as well on clay as on grass. By '96, Graf was facing off against the precocious Hingis. Many would argue that based on her performance in the Semis, Hingis had a greater chance of beating Graf at the '96 US Open than Monica did. By the way, just so that I understand how weak the competition continued to be in '96, can you tell me what Monica's head to head record against Hingis is?

Steffi sat out the '97 season because of a knee injury. When she returned in '98, the number one player in the world was Hingis, not Seles. Seles wasn't even putting up much of a challenge to Hingis; Davenport was. Though both Hingis and Davenport now presented more serious challenges, Steffi could still beat them and she did. She played Davenport 3 times that year. Davenport beat her once; Steffi beat her once; and Graf retired with an injury in the 3rd set in one of their matches. Steffi played Hingis twice that year. Hingis beat her once; Steffi beat her once. By the way, just so that I understand how weak the competition continued to be in '97, can you tell me what Monica's head to head record against Davenport is? Yes, that would be the same Davenport who beat Venus today (2004 US Open) in two masterful sets. (Nothing much has changed, has it?)

By '99, Steffi still hadn't regained her '96 form. But, she was still competing well. She began the year in Hong Kong at an exhibition tournament. She best Serena there. She followed that up with consecutive victories against the Williams' sisters at the Addidas International. Her head to head record against Serena at the time was 2-0 (counting the exhibition). Against Venus, it was also 2-0. (She first defeated Venus at the '96 Manhatten Beach tour stop.) She would lose to Serena at the '99 IW. She would be beaten by Venus at the '99 Key Biscayne. She defeated Venus, however, on the biggest stage of them all, Centre Court Wimbledon, the '99 Wimbledon Quarters. Though she lost to Davenport in the Wimbledon final, Steffi showed that she was still quite capable of beating Davenport by having done so a month before in the Quarters of the '99 French. By contrast, how was Monica doing against such weak competition? You may want to refresh my memory by telling me what Monica's head to head record is against such weak competition like Serena and Venus. Come on. I know how much you like the truth. And, by your own admission, there is nothing shameful about the truth, especially as it pertains to Monica. So, please tell us.

Whatever you manage to conjure up, I am astonished at your persistence in carrying out a debate that by all measures has been concluded. You and some other Seles fans may not think so, but who actually cares what you think. If people did, it would be you and your sort who were polled late in 1999 by the Associated Press. A poll was indeed conducted, but it was not you, but rather an exclusive list of tennis experts who were polled as to whom they thought was the greatest female player in the last millennium. Graf finished first in the poll, Martina N. second; Seles was not even mentioned.

As more time passes, in fact, Graf's reputation will only grow more and more. In 10 years, the average tennis fan will hardly remember who Seles was, let alone that she was stabbed. They'll have to reckon however with Graf, either because some other female player will have the chance to complete a calendar year Grand Slam, or because some other female player might be close to winning 7 Wimbledon titles or 5 or 6 French Open Titles, or because some other female player might also be close to winning each major tournament, two or more times.

It could have been different had Seles figured out a way to beat the "weak" competition from '95 to 2004. But, she didn't, did she? Finally, in 2003, after years of failing to live up to all the hype from '90 to '93, and in particular after losing to an up and coming, but still a total unknown Petrova in her last grand slam match, Seles virtually disappeared. So, years from now, what exactly will the casual tennis fan, the one who was just starting to watch tennis on TV from '95 onward, think of Seles? They may remember her as the one tennis commentators kept referring to as the stabbing victim. Or, they may remember her as the one who couldn't quite compete with Hingis, Davenport, Venus and Serena. Or, they could remember her as an average player who never won a major tournament between the years they started watching. Or, they could remember her for being perpetually out of shape and overweight during those years. Or, they could remember that they briefly saw her in 2004 playing Team Tennis, either on TV or in person. But, if they do remember her for that, they will also probably remember that she was no match for the virtual unknowns that populate the woman's ranks of team tennis. Hence, in their minds, they probably will remember her as being no good.

Now, that is Seles' career in a nutshell.

williamsharapov
Sep 7th, 2004, 08:44 AM
Weak competition? Did I miss something? Or, perhaps, by some strange temporal anomaly, did Graf find herself playing Billy Jean King, Evonne Goolagong, or even a 16 yo Chris Evert in major finals from late '93 to late '95. Temporal anomalies notwithstanding, to the best of my recollection, Graf beat the same players on her way to major victories from late '93 to late '95 that Seles had been beating from '90 to 'early '93, with one exception, Graf herself. That's right! Seles won all but three of her major titles by beating players other than Graf. From that, one could reasonably conclude that it was Seles who profited from the weak competition from '90 to '93. Other players were beating Graf or Graf was beating herself most of the time. Whatever the case, one thing is for sure --- Seles did not beat Graf to win all of her nine major tournaments. Don't delude yourself into thinking that it was any different, neither the competition nor the opponents in the finals.

From '95 to '99, Steffi also competed against the likes of a more versatile ASV, Hingis, Davenport, Venus and Serena. In '96, ASV presented more of a challenge to Graf than Monica. First of all, because ASV was a more versatile player, capable of performing as well on clay as on grass. By '96, Graf was facing off against the precocious Hingis. Many would argue that based on her performance in the Semis, Hingis had a greater chance of beating Graf at the '96 US Open than Monica did. By the way, just so that I understand how weak the competition continued to be in '96, can you tell me what Monica's head to head record against Hingis is?

Steffi sat out the '97 season because of a knee injury. When she returned in '98, the number one player in the world was Hingis, not Seles. Seles wasn't even putting up much of a challenge to Hingis; Davenport was. Though both Hingis and Davenport now presented more serious challenges, Steffi could still beat them and she did. She played Davenport 3 times that year. Davenport beat her once; Steffi beat her once; and Graf retired with an injury in the 3rd set in one of their matches. Steffi played Hingis twice that year. Hingis beat her once; Steffi beat her once. By the way, just so that I understand how weak the competition continued to be in '97, can you tell me what Monica's head to head record against Davenport is? Yes, that would be the same Davenport who beat Venus today (2004 US Open) in two masterful sets. (Nothing much has changed, has it?)

By '99, Steffi still hadn't regained her '96 form. But, she was still competing well. She began the year in Hong Kong at an exhibition tournament. She best Serena there. She followed that up with consecutive victories against the Williams' sisters at the Addidas International. Her head to head record against Serena at the time was 2-0 (counting the exhibition). Against Venus, it was also 2-0. (She first defeated Venus at the '96 Manhatten Beach tour stop.) She would lose to Serena at the '99 IW. She would be beaten by Venus at the '99 Key Biscayne. She defeated Venus, however, on the biggest stage of them all, Centre Court Wimbledon, the '99 Wimbledon Quarters. Though she lost to Davenport in the Wimbledon final, Steffi showed that she was still quite capable of beating Davenport by having done so a month before in the Quarters of the '99 French. By contrast, how was Monica doing against such weak competition? You may want to refresh my memory by telling me what Monica's head to head record is against such weak competition like Serena and Venus. Come on. I know how much you like the truth. And, by your own admission, there is nothing shameful about the truth, especially as it pertains to Monica. So, please tell us.

Whatever you manage to conjure up, I am astonished at your persistence in carrying out a debate that by all measures has been concluded. You and some other Seles fans may not think so, but who actually cares what you think. If people did, it would be you and your sort who were polled late in 1999 by the Associated Press. A poll was indeed conducted, but it was not you, but rather an exclusive list of tennis experts who were polled as to whom they thought was the greatest female player in the last millennium. Graf finished first in the poll, Martina N. second; Seles was not even mentioned.

As more time passes, in fact, Graf's reputation will only grow more and more. In 10 years, the average tennis fan will hardly remember who Seles was, let alone that she was stabbed. They'll have to reckon however with Graf, either because some other female player will have the chance to complete a calendar year Grand Slam, or because some other female player might be close to winning 7 Wimbledon titles or 5 or 6 French Open Titles, or because some other female player might also be close to winning each major tournament, two or more times.

It could have been different had Seles figured out a way to beat the "weak" competition from '95 to 2004. But, she didn't, did she? Finally, in 2003, after years of failing to live up to all the hype from '90 to '93, and in particular after losing to an up and coming, but still a total unknown Petrova in her last grand slam match, Seles virtually disappeared. So, years from now, what exactly will the casual tennis fan, the one who was just starting to watch tennis on TV from '95 onward, think of Seles? They may remember her as the one tennis commentators kept referring to as the stabbing victim. Or, they may remember her as the one who couldn't quite compete with Hingis, Davenport, Venus and Serena. Or, they could remember her as an average player who never won a major tournament between the years they started watching. Or, they could remember her for being perpetually out of shape and overweight during those years. Or, they could remember that they briefly saw her in 2004 playing Team Tennis, either on TV or in person. But, if they do remember her for that, they will also probably remember that she was no match for the virtual unknowns that populate the woman's ranks of team tennis. Hence, in their minds, they probably will remember her as being no good.

Now, that is Seles' career in a nutshell.

people's dont ever thinks that way. monica was 1 and steffi was 2. steffi only wons more trophy slams because of hamburg stabbing. everywhere i go, many peoples beleive that monica the the bestest woman player than steffi graf. i like steffi but on the court monica was the real 1.
even new tennis woman players thinks monica was bestest than steffi but the sad hamburg stabbing happened. the become competetion was lower class and arantxa vicario, conchita martines are all the times beaten badly by seles. check head to head records of seles vs vicario;seles vs martines.


ich liebe dich venus, maria and monica. :wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

williamsharapov
Sep 7th, 2004, 08:50 AM
" Mental disturbance of serious magnitude that may be characterized by loss of contact with reality. Delusions and hallucinations are often present. " Super Dumbo??? Very sad indeed :angel: ************************************************** *******
A player who is claimed by some Graf fanatics to be the best of of ALL time does not have to rely on the #1 ranked player in the world (who is just a tennager and #1 for consecutive years while winning 9 of the 11 biggest events in the sport over a period of more than 2 years) being stabbed in the back with a knife.

The Monica Seles incident in Hamburg, Germany at the end of April in 1993 -- especially when you take into consideration how dominant the young teenage Seles was in the months November 1990 through April 1993 -- SEALS it that Graf was not the best of all time.

Graf was in the middle of her career in the early 1990s -- and yet Seles as a teenager was the one ranked #1 and the one winning 9 of those 11 biggest titles between November 1990 and January 1993 -- and this, within itself, eliminates Graf from consideration as the top woman tennis player of all time.

SO WE LOOK AT THE 12 BIGGEST SINGLES TITLES IN WOMEN'S TENNIS DURING THE 30 MONTHS BEFORE THE STABBING:

1990 1991 1992 1993 1994


1990 WTA Championships MONICA SELES
1991 Australian Open MONICA SELES
1991 French Open MONICA SELES

1991 Wimbledon STEFFI GRAF

1991 U.S. Open MONICA SELES
1991 WTA Championships MONICA SELES
1992 Australian Open MONICA SELES
1992 French Open MONICA SELES

1992 Wimbledon STEFFI GRAF

1992 U.S. Open MONICA SELES
1992 WTA Championships MONICA SELES
1993 Australian Open MONICA SELES

Navratilova in her mid 30s (turned 34 in 1990 .. turned 35 in 1991 .. turned 36 in 1992 .. and turned 37 in 1993) had a winning record vs. Graf in the 1990s prior to the stabbing of Monica Seles in April 1993, including the only match Navratilova and Graf played against each other in a Grand Slam singles match during the 1990s.

Steffi was almost 18 years of age before she was able to win back to back matches against Navratilova for the first time. Of course, Navratilova was over 30 years of age by then.

The first time that Graf was able to win MORE than just 2 matches consecutively vs. Navratilova was when Graf was over 19 years of age and when Navratilova was close to the age Andre Agassi is now.

STILL .. Navratilova in her mid to upper 30s had a winning record vs. Graf in the years 1990-1993, including Martina winning the only match between the 2 at a Grand Slam event during the 1990s.


Seles, of course, as a top ranked teen phenom in the years 1990 through 1993, had a winning record vs. Graf as well before a jealous Steffi Graf fan stabbed Seles in the back with a knife.


1989 Brighton International (Brighton) Final 7-5, 6-4 Steffi Graf
1989 Roland Garros (Paris) Semifinal 6-3, 3-6, 6-3 Steffi Graf
1989 Wimbledon (London) 4th round 6-0, 6-1 Steffi Graf

***Monica made her professional debut in 1989 at 15 years of age where she lost all of her matches 0-3 against then world number one Steffi Graf who made her professional debut in 1983 and was four (4) years older than Seles.***

***But from 1990-1993( before the stabbing), Monica Seles took over the top ranking has 4-3 advantage against Graf in head to head match-ups and was 3-1 in Grand Slam Finals against Graf who had fallen to a consistent number two.***

1990 Lufthansa Cup (Berlin) Final 6-4, 6-3 Monica Seles
1990 Roland Garros (Paris) Final 7-6, 6-4 Monica Seles
1991 Citizen Cup (Hambourg) Final 7-5, 6-7 (4-7), 6-3 Steffi Graf
1991 Women's Hardcourt Champs (San Antonio) Final 6-4, 6-3 Steffi Graf
1992 Roland Garros (Paris) Final 6-2, 3-6, 10-8 Monica Seles
1992 Wimbledon (London) Final 6-2, 6-1 Steffi Graf
1993 Australian Open (Melbourne) Final 4-6, 6-3, 6-2 Monica Seles

***Monica Seles also won her very last match against second ranked Graf at the Finals of the 1993 Australian Open***

Based on the 12 biggest events between the end of 1990 and the early part of 1993 there was nothing whatsoever which would suggest that undisputed world number one Monica Seles was not going to continue her dominance over women's tennis going forward.

In addition, no player in women's tennis history has won more than the 10 out of 12 major singles titles that Monica Seles won in those 30 months before being stabbed in April 1990 --- although Martina Navratilova in her prime 10 years earlier managed to match that 10 of the 12 biggest singles titles played consecutively.

Monica Seles was the ONLY player in women's tennis to win 2 of the 5 biggest singles titles in women's tennis in 1990 ... 1991 ... 1992 ... and the ONLY player to win a Grand Slam singles title in 1993 before she was stabbed in 1993 by a Steffi Graf fan.

No way Steffi Graf is the best woman tennis player in tennis history when you consider the truth of Steffi Graf, Martina Navratilova and Monica Seles in the years 1990-1993. Far from it...Not even close.... :angel:


I just haven't quite figured out how to beat her"..........

------Steffi Graf.......
after her loss to Monica Seles at the Australian Open Finals, 1993.......


Steffi Graf's Career in a Nutshell.......

Gunther Parche
and WEAK Competition once Seles was gone. :angel:

i think martina navrtilova is bestest on the world on all singles and doubles matches. but i thinks monica is bestest on all singles.
martina dont not get old. i saw martina plays lot of times and shes nice too like monica.

ich liebe dich venus, maria, monica :wavey: :wavey: :wavey: