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FaceyFacem
Aug 18th, 2004, 11:26 PM
Alright, Steffi made a huge come-from-behind win in the last hour to take the title over Martina N. Anyway, just wanted to say a HUGE thanks to everyone for posting and making my first month on the board so interesting! anyway, just some loose ends to wrap up, if we used overall H2H and then overall sets as a tiebreaker, the draw would have looked like this (with only my imagination that nav would defeat justine):
Graf def. BYE
Davenport def. Austin
Seles def. Clijsters
Hingis def. V. Williams
Evert def. BYE
Sanchez-Vicario def. S. Williams
Henin-Hardenne def. Capriati
Navratilova def. BYE

Graf def. Davenport
Hingis def. Seles
Sanchez-Vicario def. Evert
Navratilova def. Henin-Hardenne

Graf def. Hingis
Navratilova def. Sanchez-Vicario

Navratilova def. Graf

anyway, this got me thinking about how our opinions went, and if upon reviewing the whole thing as a big picture there were anything that anyone thought was a HUGE mistake, or what was the biggest mistake, or what, just wanted to see if you guys thought anything about that, and maybe had any closing remarks, thanks again!

Pengwin
Aug 18th, 2004, 11:28 PM
i thought seles beating Hingis was a big mistake but obviously there are a lot of Seles fans here (including me) so I guess it was still fair

FaceyFacem
Aug 18th, 2004, 11:33 PM
i think people missed out on the arantxa poll, really do, but serena should've beaten chris even in an "imaginary" peak matchup, also hingis OWNED seles, and i think would've shocked the 90-92 seles with her creative thinking. the rest were either so obvious or too close to call that i can't complain

FaceyFacem
Aug 19th, 2004, 02:31 AM
no one has anything to say?!

mboyle
Aug 19th, 2004, 03:04 AM
The Navratilova vs. Graf match was a popularity contest. It is PREPOSTEROUS and merely false for anyone to say that Steffi was a better singles champion, let alone tennis champion, than Martina Navratilova. Martina had a rival people. Steffi won 8 slams that she likely wouldn't have won if her only rival had not been stabbed by some deranged psychopath. Martina played her prime against Chris Evert, clearly one of the game's greats. Even when Martina was dominating their rivalry and women's tennis in general, Chris won at least one slam every single year. Steffi never had anyone like that to challenge her other than Seles, and when the 16 year old Monica whalloped Graf twice in a row in 1990, Graf went into a shell and didn't really emerge until 1993. Even then, Monica won in three sets down under, when Steffi was at a peak that would see her capture the next four slams.

Otherwise, Serena really should have won this tournament. Serena of 02 would have beaten any man outside the top 100. Chris Evert would have proven no more challenge than Nancy Loefler Caro or Eva Bes (one of the bagel girls.) Steffi and Martina might have pushed Serena to three sets, but Serena, as much as y'all might hate her (and this really was no more than a popularity contest in the end, unfortunately,) is clearly the greatest female tennis player, in terms of ability, in the history, however brief, of the sport.

mboyle
Aug 19th, 2004, 03:06 AM
i thought seles beating Hingis was a big mistake but obviously there are a lot of Seles fans here (including me) so I guess it was still fair
No, Monica of 92 would have ass-walloped Martina. Hingis couldn't beat any player that could overpower her w/o missing. Seles of 92 was pretty much like Lindsay Davenport. Yeah the serve wasn't the same, but Seles' serve was still a weapon by the end of 92/beginning of 93. If you compare Monica post-Gunther to Hingis in 1997, the result would be equally one sided, but in favor of Hingis.\

Overall, I think there is a better argument for Venus beating Hingis than for Hingis beating Seles.

selking
Aug 19th, 2004, 03:11 AM
i agree with everything that you said in those posts. Nicely said.

mboyle
Aug 19th, 2004, 03:12 AM
No way should Arantxa have beaten Serena. No way. Oh wow Arantxa leads the head to head overall. Whoopie. Serena of 02 would have beaten everyone in the field by the following scores:

Evert of the mid 70s: 6-0; 6-1
Austin of 81: 6-2; 6-3
Navratilova of 84: 6-2; 6-7; 6-4
Graf of 88: 7-6; 6-4
Seles of 92: 6-3; 6-3
Sanchez-Vicario of 94: 6-2; 6-1
Hingis of 97: 6-4; 6-1
Davenport of 98: 6-2; 7-6
Capriati of 01: 4-6; 6-4; 6-3 (only because Jennifer seems to have Serena's number, but in the end decides not to dial in:o ;) )
Venus of 01: 6-2; 6-3
Kim of 03: 6-3; 6-2
Justine of 03: 7-5; 6-3

mboyle
Aug 19th, 2004, 03:14 AM
Oh and btw, I am not a Seles fan. I love Monica, but mostly because she is an amazingly nice person who devotes a ton of time and money to charity and to helping kids. In tennis, I like Capriati and Sharapova alot more. (well, Kournikova too:devil: ;) )

Mr_Molik
Aug 19th, 2004, 03:15 AM
Serena of 02 would have beaten any man outside the top 100.
:haha: thats too funny

Mr_Molik
Aug 19th, 2004, 03:17 AM
steffi is the greatest singles player of the open era so far :worship:
end of story.

bandabou
Aug 19th, 2004, 06:28 AM
I think Serena should have beaten Chris..

Pengwin
Aug 19th, 2004, 12:28 PM
If Sharapova beats Serena Williams surely Chris Evert who was #1 for 200 something weeks could beat Serena

bandabou
Aug 19th, 2004, 12:30 PM
If Sharapova beats Serena Williams surely Chris Evert who was #1 for 200 something weeks could beat Serena

Beating a Serena after major knee-surgery...impressive. Even Davenport can do it now.

steffilover
Aug 19th, 2004, 01:01 PM
The Navratilova vs. Graf match was a popularity contest. It is PREPOSTEROUS and merely false for anyone to say that Steffi was a better singles champion, let alone tennis champion, than Martina Navratilova. Martina had a rival people. Steffi won 8 slams that she likely wouldn't have won if her only rival had not been stabbed by some deranged psycopath. Martina played her prime against Chris Evert, clearly one of the game's greats. Even when Martina was dominating their rivalry and women's tennis in general, Chris won at least one slam every single year. Steffi never had anyone like that to challenge her other than Seles, and when the 16 year old Monica whalloped Graf twice in a row in 1990, Graf went into a shell and didn't really emerge until 1993. Even then, Monica won in three sets down under, when Steffi was at a peak that would see her capture the next four slams.

Otherwise, Serena really should have won this tournament. Serena of 02 would have beaten any man outside the top 100. Chris Evert would have proven no more challenge than Nancy Loefler Caro or Eva Bes (one of the bagel girls.) Steffi and Martina might have pushed Serena to three sets, but Serena, as much as y'all might hate her (and this really was no more than a popularity contest in the end, unfortunately,) is clearly the greatest female tennis player, in terms of ability, in the history, however brief, of the sport.
I can't resist answering these posts, even though I'm sure u derive some perverse pleasure from feeling u have an audience. Let's see....

1. If the poll HAD been a popularity contest, what does that say about the popularity of ur big fav? (My fav still won!!) Ever wondered why?

2. Demonstrate the extraordinary statistics u have at ur disposal which prove that serena was "clearly the greatest female tennis player". Can't do it, huh? I can, and have, for steffi.

3. U disparage chris evert, one of the game's greatest and longest-serving ambassadors, by suggesting she'd be no more than canon fodder for serena. Just a reminder to you - chris was taught immaculate groundstrokes, possessed uncanny patience and consistency and 37 times beat the only player you feel would have given serena a challenge. when serena has developed consistency, patience and learned how to hit shots without spraying them embarrassingly low into the net or far beyond the baseline in a 10 stroke rally, come back to me.

4. what is it with u seles lovers and ur poor spelling? am i going to have to run a masterclass for u? believe me, it adds weight to ur posts (and boy do urs need it!) if things are just correctly spelled!! words like PSYCHOPATH :lol: , WALLOPED :o - it's just careless and u really should do anything u can to improve it. Mind u, u can't even spell MASSACHUSSETTS correctly in ur location signature:rolleyes: , so why should i expect anything better! Look at it a little like serena and her clumsy, awkward groundstrokes - if u work on it, it will get better!

Make an effort mboyle - ur an mbarrassment!:lol: :lol: :lol:

bandabou
Aug 19th, 2004, 01:17 PM
Chris was more consistent in rallies than EVERYBODY, not just Serena..she was more consistent than Graf too..donīt come and act like Steffi was ms rallier.

spencercarlos
Aug 19th, 2004, 01:19 PM
Chris was more consistent in rallies than EVERYBODY, not just Serena..she was more consistent than Graf too..donīt come and act like Steffi was ms rallier.
Of course playing at that speed, anyone could have great consistency as well.

bandabou
Aug 19th, 2004, 01:23 PM
Of course playing at that speed, anyone could have great consistency as well.


Tell that to steffilover..

pokey camp
Aug 19th, 2004, 01:42 PM
4. what is it with u seles lovers and ur poor spelling? am i going to have to run a masterclass for u? believe me, it adds weight to ur posts (and boy do urs need it!) if things are just correctly spelled!! Make an effort mboyle - ur an mbarrassment!
:lol: I'm sorry, but this has got to be the funniest post I've read on this board. Yes steffilover, I think you should be first in line to teach a master class on spelling. WTF?

Nav should have probably won the whole thing. But then again I didn't even vote in that one because I couldn't decide. :rolleyes:

I'm alright with Evert beating Serena based the consistency of her strokes and of her overall play. Evert was a pretty damn good athlete so I don't see why she couldn't make the adjustments.

steffilover
Aug 19th, 2004, 01:47 PM
:lol: I'm sorry, but this has got to be the funniest post I've read on this board. Yes steffilover, I think you should be first in line to teach a master class on spelling. WTF?

Nav should have probably won the whole thing.

I'm alright with Evert beating Serena based the consistency of her strokes and of her overall play. Evert was a pretty damn good athlete so I don't see why she couldn't make the adjustments.
I refer u to my earlier post, where i explained that "UR" is an accepted abbreviation in e-mails, texts and message posts for "your" and "you're". next question?:confused:

buscemi
Aug 19th, 2004, 01:53 PM
I'm going to go with people picking Graf over Seles as the biggest error of the poll. Why? As the initial post indictaed, the point of this poll was to see who would win when each was closest to their best, as captured in one 'critical' match between the 2, presumably on a somewhat democartic surface. People picking Seles had a few such matches. For those who thought clay was Seles' best surface, you could pick Seles' '93 AO win. For those who thought rebound ace was her best surface, you could pick either of Graf's French Open wins over Graf.

But, despite a couple of us asking which win of Graf's over Seles could be called 'critical,' we never got a response. The closest thing to a response was Graf's Wimbledon win over Seles, a best surface-worst surface win.

So, I'm still waiting. Which win of Graf's over Seles was 'critical?'

pokey camp
Aug 19th, 2004, 01:57 PM
Please don't take it personally steffilover, I'm certainly no great speller myself, being a Seles fan though I guess that's to be expected. :rolleyes: It just amused me that someone who is too damn lazy to type out correct spellings would jump on another person for lazy spelling. No excuse for "mbarrassment" though. Thanks for the bad rep however. ;)

steffilover
Aug 19th, 2004, 02:35 PM
Please don't take it personally steffilover, I'm certainly no great speller myself, being a Seles fan though I guess that's to be expected. :rolleyes: It just amused me that someone who is too damn lazy to type out correct spellings would jump on another person for lazy spelling. No excuse for "mbarrassment" though. Thanks for the bad rep however. ;)
look again at my post - mbarrassment was on purpose - to link it with mboyle?:lol:
too subtle for some folks, I see!:rolleyes:

steffilover
Aug 19th, 2004, 02:37 PM
...and there is a difference between lazy spelling and ignorant spelling. ask mboyle.;)

mboyle
Aug 19th, 2004, 02:56 PM
I spelled "walloped" correctly:) . I thought I had spelled "psychopath" correctly, but, apparently, I missed an h.

pokey camp
Aug 19th, 2004, 03:03 PM
:lol: Once again steffilover I'm not trying to personally attack you or hijack this thread with a dumbass spelling debate. (Apologies all.) Just having an innocent laugh before I run off to work. I still think your previous post was hilarious though. And yes, I guess there is a difference between lazy and ignorant. If you're saying you're just flat out lazy as opposed to ignorant. :lol: Okay.

mboyle
Aug 19th, 2004, 03:05 PM
Oh as for my "massachusetts" issue, I have stated myriad times that, for an unforseen reason, the server reads my profile entry as "massacusetts" even though, when I attempt editing it, it reads "massachusetts" on my screen.

mboyle
Aug 19th, 2004, 03:13 PM
...and there is a difference between lazy spelling and ignorant spelling. ask mboyle.;)
Indeed there is. Lazy people accomplish nothing in life, regardless of their perceived lack of ignorance. Therefore, they lie around their houses thinking about all of the things they could have accomplished in their lives, all of which they didn't, of course, because they defame their spirits and their bodies by languidly wasting days away. I am not, have never been, and never will be lazy. I would never reduce myself to do my intelligence the inconceivable injustice of utilizing idiotic teen profanations of the beautiful English language such as "ur" and "u." Regardless, my spelling has never been my forte. It isn't terrible, and I oft check dictionaries to ensure accuracy, but I do stumble occasionally. Steffilover, your grammar isn't always perfect, regardless of what you might like to believe. However, my vocabulary and my grammar are my strong points. Still, I would never correct you on minor minutia, not that I begrudge you the honor of ameliorating my slips.

*roddicksinme*
Aug 19th, 2004, 04:24 PM
people made new names to vote for STEFFI?????

I thought it was quite fishy that Navratilova even caught up at all seeing that steffi was up by 20 votes and then next time i check it. Nav is up by one....so if Steffi fans did it...all you can say is fair game bc it is obvious it was done in the other direction first of all!!!

*roddicksinme*
Aug 19th, 2004, 04:28 PM
The Navratilova vs. Graf match was a popularity contest. It is PREPOSTEROUS and merely false for anyone to say that Steffi was a better singles champion, let alone tennis champion, than Martina Navratilova. Martina had a rival people. Steffi won 8 slams that she likely wouldn't have won if her only rival had not been stabbed by some deranged psychopath. Martina played her prime against Chris Evert, clearly one of the game's greats. Even when Martina was dominating their rivalry and women's tennis in general, Chris won at least one slam every single year. Steffi never had anyone like that to challenge her other than Seles, and when the 16 year old Monica whalloped Graf twice in a row in 1990, Graf went into a shell and didn't really emerge until 1993. Even then, Monica won in three sets down under, when Steffi was at a peak that would see her capture the next four slams.

Otherwise, Serena really should have won this tournament. Serena of 02 would have beaten any man outside the top 100. Chris Evert would have proven no more challenge than Nancy Loefler Caro or Eva Bes (one of the bagel girls.) Steffi and Martina might have pushed Serena to three sets, but Serena, as much as y'all might hate her (and this really was no more than a popularity contest in the end, unfortunately,) is clearly the greatest female tennis player, in terms of ability, in the history, however brief, of the sport.
Go ask Chris Evert herself who was the best player of all time....her answer is STEFFI GRAF!

Calimero377
Aug 19th, 2004, 10:14 PM
Chris was more consistent in rallies than EVERYBODY, not just Serena..she was more consistent than Graf too..donīt come and act like Steffi was ms rallier.


As Steffi won most rallies she can't have been too bad at it, son .....


:lol:

bandabou
Aug 19th, 2004, 10:19 PM
As Steffi won most rallies she can't have been too bad at it, son .....


:lol:


Uhum...guess so.

Calimero377
Aug 19th, 2004, 10:20 PM
I'm going to go with people picking Graf over Seles as the biggest error of the poll. Why? As the initial post indictaed, the point of this poll was to see who would win when each was closest to their best, as captured in one 'critical' match between the 2, presumably on a somewhat democartic surface. People picking Seles had a few such matches. For those who thought clay was Seles' best surface, you could pick Seles' '93 AO win. For those who thought rebound ace was her best surface, you could pick either of Graf's French Open wins over Graf.

But, despite a couple of us asking which win of Graf's over Seles could be called 'critical,' we never got a response. The closest thing to a response was Graf's Wimbledon win over Seles, a best surface-worst surface win.

So, I'm still waiting. Which win of Graf's over Seles was 'critical?'


If Steffi had beaten Monica like a drum not only twice but 8 times instead at Wimbledon, however had played her only once on ReboundAce and lost that in 3 sets, you'd choose the ReboundAce match as "democratic" and therefore "critical", yes?

If I weren't that polite as I am, I would call you "dumbo" ......

;)


BTW, USO 95 & 96.
Masters 98.
San Antonio 91 (fast US hardcourt).

All very democratic .....


:wavey:

Calimero377
Aug 19th, 2004, 10:21 PM
Go ask Chris Evert herself who was the best player of all time....her answer is STEFFI GRAF!


Billie Jean King and Tracy Austin said the same ......

:worship:

*roddicksinme*
Aug 19th, 2004, 10:25 PM
Billie Jean King and Tracy Austin said the same ......

:worship:
i wasnt aware of those 2 also KNOWING Steffi was the best ;)
thanks for sharing

buscemi
Aug 19th, 2004, 10:34 PM
If Steffi had beaten Monica like a drum not only twice but 8 times instead at Wimbledon, however had played her only once on ReboundAce and lost that in 3 sets, you'd choose the ReboundAce match as "democratic" and therefore "critical", yes?

If I weren't that polite as I am, I would call you "dumbo" ......

;)


BTW, USO 95 & 96.
Masters 98.
San Antonio 91 (fast US hardcourt).

All very democratic .....


:wavey:

Okay, so choose -- which of those 4 is the 'critical' win?