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View Full Version : #1 Tournament FINALS! Graf vs. Navratilova


FaceyFacem
Aug 17th, 2004, 11:19 PM
We all knew it would come to this, well, maybe we all didn't, but I'm not shocked. Here's a reminder of how we got here:
Graf def. BYE
Davenport def. Austin
Seles def. Clijsters
Hingis def. V. Williams
Evert def. BYE
S. Williams def. Sanchez-Vicario
Henin-Hardenne def. Capriati
Navratilova def. BYE

led to:
Graf def. Davenport
Seles def. Hingis
Evert def. S. Williams
Navratilova def. Henin-Hardenne

to the semis:
Graf def. Seles
Navratilova def. Evert

to the finals
Graf vs. Navratilova

H2H is 9-9!!! dead even...YES! should be a good good battle, remember we're using that one career defining matchup between the two to gauge, otherwise comparison of peak qualities, majors, eras, etc. to determine the winner here. This is the finals!! Vote and post to make sure others vote for who you think should win! ok, here is a full list of the H2H, making Steffi in Green and Martina in Orange

1985-08-26 U.S. Open Hardcourt SF Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-2 6-3
1985-09-30 Fort Lauderdale Hardcourt F Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-3 6-1
1986-03-17 Virginia Slims Championships Indoor Carpet SF Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-2 6-2
1986-05-12 Berlin Clay F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-2 6-3
1986-08-25 U.S. Open Hardcourt SF Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-1 6-7 7-6
1986-11-17 Virginia Slims Championships Indoor Carpet F Martina Navratilova (USA) 7-6 6-3 6-2
1987-02-23 Key Biscayne Hardcourt SF Steffi Graf (GER) 6-3 6-2
1987-05-25 Roland Garros Clay F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-4 4-6 8-6
1987-06-22 Wimbledon Grass F Martina Navratilova (USA) 7-5 6-3
1987-08-31 U.S. Open Hardcourt F Martina Navratilova (USA) 7-6 6-1
1988-06-22 Wimbledon Grass F Steffi Graf (GER) 5-7 6-2 6-1
1989-06-26 Wimbledon Grass F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-2 6-7 6-1
1989-08-28 U.S. Open Hardcourt F Steffi Graf (GER) 3-6 7-5 6-1
1989-11-13 Virginia Slims Championships Indoor Carpet F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-4 7-5 2-6 6-2
1991-08-26 U.S. Open Hardcourt SF Martina Navratilova (USA) 7-6 6-7 6-4
1992-10-05 Zurich Indoor Carpet F Steffi Graf (GER) 2-6 7-5 7-5
1993-02-01 Tokyo Indoor Carpet SF Martina Navratilova (USA) 4-6 6-3 6-3
1994-01-31 Tokyo Indoor Carpet F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-2 6-4
Tied 9:9
Hard: Martina Navratilova (USA) leads 5:2
Clay: Steffi Graf (GER) leads 2:0
Grass: Steffi Graf (GER) leads 2:1
Indoor: Tied 3:3

Ok, good luck guys, it'll take me awhile to sort this out too!

SzavayFi
Aug 17th, 2004, 11:20 PM
i am going with GRAF!

!<blocparty>!
Aug 17th, 2004, 11:23 PM
I'm going with Navvy here.

GermanBoy
Aug 17th, 2004, 11:29 PM
Could have predicted this final before, wherefore do we need all this discussion? :shrug:

FaceyFacem
Aug 17th, 2004, 11:30 PM
wow, everything was a semi or final, martina won 1 more set overall, 9 matches apiece, unbelievable! i've seen tapes of the 86 US semi, and that was a GREAT match, but steffi was nowhere near her peak, it was like how hingis was not great in 96 and then just exploded in 97, Steffi was RIGHT near her explosion on the scene, but not there yet, so i don't want to pick that match as the "Definitive", WOW other than Ft Lauderdale, they were all Tier 1 or better too! what an awesome rivalry, and it never seems that huge in retrospect (at least based on what i hear), so unbelievably even! alright, i'm jsut going to go the VS finals of 89, because for two player where fitness was always key for them, a 4 set match showed steffi's fitness was slightly better, their games matched up perfectly, any surface could yield any champion (even clay! that 87 french could have gone either way for sure), and it is just an awesome matchup, however, i'm going steffi here, and you can make a case for just about ANY of the 18 H2H you want for this...

CJ07
Aug 17th, 2004, 11:46 PM
I have to say that the fact that Martina beat her as a 36 year old proves she was truly the greatest

stevenPRIDE
Aug 17th, 2004, 11:59 PM
Martina is the greatest (in my opinion) all around player in history, She has 167 Singles title...to Grafs 107 titles, has almost 180 doubles titles...and at least the same amount of mixed doubles titles.

Graff is no doubt the top womens single player, winner an outstanding 22 slams, however Navratilova is in a league of her own, im sorry, its true.

Navratilova, no matter what, is the single greatest achiever, title wise, of any player, man or women, in tennis history.

Navratilova is still hitting balls back to girls 20 years he junior, and holding her own, shes a grand slam champion in her late 40's and shes a threat at the olympics this year and in the Us Open coming up.....

This, THIS feat alone got my vote to go to Navratilova, shes a champion who knows no bounds, defies age and truely is THE GREATEST CHAMPION TENNIS PLAYER.

Graff may win this , but if i am correct everyone will se that Martinas accomplishments far outshine Graff, simply because Martina has shown dominance and championship form for 4 decades, always coming out a champion.

Martina, LONG LIVE THE QUEEN!

Philbo
Aug 18th, 2004, 12:53 AM
Theres not much doubt Graf will win this due to the average age of posters on this website...

But there isnt really much to discuss - Martina went 2-2 with GRAF from the age of 35-38...and in the Zurich loss in 91 Martina choked that match away and really should have a 3-1 record over Graf in their last 4 victories.

Martina's game matched up against Graf well, and had it not been for nerves Martina also would have won the 87 French FInal and the 89 Us Open final - both matches that Martina choked away after serving for the match..

As it is, even choking a few matches away Martina still finished equal - considering the majority of their matches were played AFTER the age Graf retired at, Martina competing equally with Graf, it really reflects well on Martina..

Graf got the upperhand in the head to head during the late 80's, (when Martina was burnt out - hey if Graf fans want to use excsuses to explain away every loss she ever had so can I!!! lol)....but once Martina rejuvenated herself, she went 2-2 with Graf in the last few years WAY PAST HER PEAK whilst Graf was at her peak....

Steffi will win the popularity contest - also beccause she has done the 'right' thing and retired and had babies and shut her mouth - whereas Martina still is outspoken - she wont win this popularity contest but who really cares?

ttaM
Aug 18th, 2004, 01:13 AM
Theres not much doubt Graf will win this due to the average age of posters on this website...

But there isnt really much to discuss - Martina went 2-2 with GRAF from the age of 35-38...and in the Zurich loss in 91 Martina choked that match away and really should have a 3-1 record over Graf in their last 4 victories.

Martina's game matched up against Graf well, and had it not been for nerves Martina also would have won the 87 French FInal and the 89 Us Open final - both matches that Martina choked away after serving for the match..

As it is, even choking a few matches away Martina still finished equal - considering the majority of their matches were played AFTER the age Graf retired at, Martina competing equally with Graf, it really reflects well on Martina..

Graf got the upperhand in the head to head during the late 80's, (when Martina was burnt out - hey if Graf fans want to use excsuses to explain away every loss she ever had so can I!!! lol)....but once Martina rejuvenated herself, she went 2-2 with Graf in the last few years WAY PAST HER PEAK whilst Graf was at her peak....

Steffi will win the popularity contest - also beccause she has done the 'right' thing and retired and had babies and shut her mouth - whereas Martina still is outspoken - she wont win this popularity contest but who really cares?
:kiss:

mboyle
Aug 18th, 2004, 01:41 AM
I agree that Martina will probably lose to Gunther and his gang in this, but Martina Nav is clearly the greatest tennis player of all time. She has almost as many Wimbledon titles as Graf has grand slam titles, which in and of itself should give you an idea as to how much better Martina is than Steffi. Also, we must remember that Steffi had no rival in her prime, wheras Martina had Chrissy. As Evert so blatantly put it (and you can reverse this so it works,) "If Martina had been stabbed in the early eighties, I would have won a lot more slams too."

AjdeNate!
Aug 18th, 2004, 01:43 AM
I voted for Nav... but both are just :worship:

faboozadoo15
Aug 18th, 2004, 03:42 AM
navratilova better win this :rolleyes:

treiber04
Aug 18th, 2004, 03:43 AM
Steffi hands down. 22 Grand Slams says it all.

Anna F'd Enrique
Aug 18th, 2004, 03:45 AM
um nav better win...

tennisiscool
Aug 18th, 2004, 04:16 AM
Martina N . Even if it were Monica v/s Martina i'd vote for her because she is amazing :worship:

FaceyFacem
Aug 18th, 2004, 04:17 AM
going very even so far as expected...no one really convinced me about picking nav yet, anyone want to truly sway my vote?

WSfan
Aug 18th, 2004, 04:23 AM
This is too hard for me to choose.... I can't vote

SteffiJenFan
Aug 18th, 2004, 04:30 AM
Graf will win!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :worship: :bounce: :wavey: :worship: :) go steffi:)

!!!--Duiz™--!!!
Aug 18th, 2004, 05:46 AM
MArtina could be one of the greatest, but no better than Graf...

irma
Aug 18th, 2004, 05:59 AM
I have bashed Nav a lot in the past for her comments (about person issues) but fact is she has all respect for Steffi the tennisplayer. I wish her real (and bandwagoner fans aka mboyle who was not even born when Nav was the queen of the courts) fans would learn some from her class but no they keep devaluating Steffi's wins to make her look better. It's not even necessary :o

kabuki
Aug 18th, 2004, 06:01 AM
Very close, but Nav's longevity wins the day for me...

stevenPRIDE
Aug 18th, 2004, 06:01 AM
Martina is an icon, a feminist revolutionary and a true sports heroine, she made womens tennis what it is today, or she certainly gave it a huge shove.

Graff cannot compete with all of the accomplishents Martina has, Graff has 4 more singles slams but is way below Martinas total Grand Slam haul of 50 something.

Martina also made more Slam Finals than Graff ....

Graff is a great player howeve Martina is a few shoulder length above, if we really think about it.

Martina SHOULD WIN IT

Steven.

Philbo
Aug 18th, 2004, 06:22 AM
Just to speak a bit about Martina's dominance....

Noone in the modern era has really come close to matching the dominance records Martina set. She own the best winning streak - 72 matches in a row, she then lost a match (whilst suffering toxoplasmosis), then rebounded with a 56 match streak!! Thats basically 128-1 over about an 18 month period!

She won 6 consecutive slams - last time I counted 6 was better than 4. Graf also won 6 in a row that she competed in, but she had an injury that prevented her from winning them consecutively like Martina.

Martina is the oldest player to beat a # 1 in the world when she beat Seles, just prior to the stabbing at the Paris Indoors in 93.

Basically the only thing Graf has as a record that can even compare to Martina's record is Steffi's each slam at least 4 times... How much recognition you give that though depends on how much you buy into the whole 'effect of the stabbing' argument - without the stabbing, Graf plain and simple does NOT have each slam 4 times.

If only Monica wasnt stabbed then we'd be able to have a more conclusive debate - Graf would have had a proper rival - on her level (or above imo!!) for most of her reign at the top in the 90's - just like Evert and Nav, but as history turned out, Graf got handed dominance on a platter when Gunther plunged a knife in the back of Monica when Monica had displaced Graf at the top.

The other thing about Martina's remarkable record that gives it to her over Graf HANDS DOWN, is Martina's longevity - Martina has played in singles slam finals in 3 different decades, plus doubles slam WINS in 4 different decades, Martina went 2-2 with Graf 3 YEARS OLLDER THAN THE AGE GRAF RETIRED AT!

I havent even mentioned the fact that Martina has 2 triple crowns - winning singles, doubles and mixed at the same tournament - this is indicative of the fact that Martina won all her singles titles - more than any man or woman - whilst playing doubles - and mixed at the slams - thats THREE times the workload!

There are some amazing stories - especially at Wimbledon of Martina having to finish , 3, 4 or 5 matches in a day and still winning everything!!!

Look at Graf at Wimbledon 99 - she couldnt even handle the workload of playing singles and doubles at the slams - that was too much for her fragile body.

bandabou
Aug 18th, 2004, 06:32 AM
Martina N..just for overall greatness. 18 vs 22 in singles, but the doubles gap is tooo huge.

Philbo
Aug 18th, 2004, 06:33 AM
BTW - Martina leads 5-4 in slam matches....

Knizzle
Aug 18th, 2004, 06:36 AM
Doubles shouldn't have impact on anything, we are talking singles here. Doubles never came into play in any of the other matchups.

Philbo
Aug 18th, 2004, 06:42 AM
One story that really makes me think Martina really is the greatest, is how Martina, close to 37 years old, played unbelievable tennis in Paris in 93 to beat Monica 7-6 in the 3rd to claim that record as the oldest person to beat a reigning # 1 - but she wasnt happy with that and followed it up about 2 weeks later by beating GRAF in the finals of Tokyo 6-3 in the 3rd...

In my mind, the logic if you apply it - that Martina was able to compete with Monica and Steffi way past her peak and pull out victories - that if you rewind the clock and have a superfit, supersharp 26 year old Martina playing Steffi that she would have a clear edge...

Philbo
Aug 18th, 2004, 06:44 AM
Doubles shouldn't have impact on anything, we are talking singles here. Doubles never came into play in any of the other matchups.
They only come into play when weighing up Martina singles accomplishments - i do think credit should be given as Martina racked up her singles accomplishments with a much heavier workload and stress to the body...

It hasnt come up in any othr discussions because none of the other players, beside possibly Hings, have a doubles record that compares...

irma
Aug 18th, 2004, 06:44 AM
BTW - Martina leads 5-4 in slam matches....

damn to the us open :mad: ;)


btw nav and steffi played in doubles. not sure how often but at least three times. steffi winning one with sukova in berlin 86. not sure if she ever did with sabatini.

stevenPRIDE
Aug 18th, 2004, 06:47 AM
How can you not mention Martinas overall dminance? Not only in singles but in doubles and mixed....heck, if martina was given a wheelchair, im sure she would be #1 in that too.

Dont get me wrong, Graff is by far the 2nd best female in tennis history, and by no means does anyone take her accomplishments and try to demean them, however Martina is #1 in my books, she gets my vote-enough said.

;)

Steven

SteffiJenFan
Aug 18th, 2004, 07:08 AM
Steffi has the most weeks at no #1..the most slams(except for M Court of course) & she dominated through different generations of champs from Evert to Martina N to Seles & Sabatini & Sanchez-V & more recently Davenport & Capriati & Hingis & the Williams sisters Go Steffi! ..but I do think Evert & Seles & Martina N are all great legends:)

steffilover
Aug 18th, 2004, 09:47 AM
I do hope chris skelton will not mind me posting this from his website - it says it all really. fans of ordinary players, you may want to look away now...:devil:


Why Steffi Graf is the greatest ever.


· Steffi is the ONLY player (man or woman) to have won a Golden Grand Slam - winning the four Grand Slam titles - the Australian Open, the French Open, Wimbledon and the US Open - in a single calendar year - 1988. In that year, Steffi also won the Olympic Gold Medal in Seoul - hence the name Golden Grand Slam.
·Steffi has won her 22 Grand Slam on four different surfaces - Rebound Ace at Flinders Park, Clay at Roland Garros, Grass at Wimbledon and cement Hard Court at Flushing Meadow. This fact, in itself, makes Steffi's Grand Slam unique.
· Steffi is the ONLY player (either male or female) to have won all four of the Grand Slam events at least 4 times.
· Steffi is the ONLY player (either male or female) to have won each of the four Grand Slam events in singles AND TO HAVE SUCCESSFULLY DEFENDED each and every one
· Steffi is one of only two players (either male or female) to have won the French Open and Wimbledon in the same year and to have done so four times. She achieved this in 1988, 1993, 1995 and 1996. Helen Wills Moody did it in 1928, 1929, 1930 and 1932. Bjorn Borg achieved it three times - 1978, 1979 and 1980
· Steffi had already won 7 Wimbledon titles by the age of 27
· It took Steffi only 9 years between her first and her eighteenth Grand Slam titles, while it took Margaret Court 11 years, and Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova 13 years each.
· Steffi holds the record for any player (either male or female) for the number of consecutive weeks as number 1 in the world - 186 weeks between 17th August 1987 and 10th March 1991.
· Steffi is the only player (either male or female) to have won all four Grand Slam singles titles in the 80s AS WELL AS in the 90s
· By winning the 1994 Australian Open, Steffi became only the second woman (Martina Navratilova was the other doing it in 1983/84) to win a non-calendar year Grand Slam, having already won the 1993 French Open, Wimbledon and US Open titles.
· Steffi holds the record for consecutive appearances in Grand Slam finals at 13 - from the 1987 French Open up to the 1990 French Open
· Steffi has won at least 3 Grand Slam titles in five different years - in 1988 she won all 4; in 1989 and 1993 she won 3 and was a finalist in the fourth; in 1995 and 1996 she won all three of the Grand Slams she played.
· Steffi has earned an Olympic Gold Medal (1988 at Seoul), a Silver Medal ( 1992 at Barcelona) and a Bronze Medal (1988 at Seoul in doubles).
· Steffi won the Lipton 5 times - a record for a man or woman. The Lipton is the biggest tournament outside the Grand Slams.
· Between 1986 and 1996, Steffi won at least 7 titles every year. Also she won at least one Grand Slam title every year between 1987 and 1996.
· Steffi has been the World Champion of Tennis seven times in ten years - 1987 to 1990, 1993 and 1995 and 1996. Seven times is a world record.
· Steffi has been the Corel WTA Player of the Year 1987 to 1990 and 1993 to 1996.
· Steffi holds a winning record against every significant player she has ever played, except Martina Navratilova (9-9) and Tracy Austin (1-1).
· Steffi holds the record as the player who has held the number 1 ranking in the world for the l o n g e s t period of time. As of the 24th March 1997, she had been in the top position for 377 weeks (over 7 years). The previous record was 331 weeks which was held by Martina Navratilova.
· Steffi won 107 titles (http://www.sgisc.com/titles.htm)


Any questions?

steffilover
Aug 18th, 2004, 09:48 AM
BTW, I voted for steffi!:bounce: :worship: :bounce: :worship:

skanky~skanketta
Aug 18th, 2004, 09:51 AM
nav is OBVIOUSLY better....she was older, beat steffi OUT of her prime, during STEFFI's prime...and their H2H is even

Beat
Aug 18th, 2004, 09:55 AM
they only ever met in SF's and F's! :eek:

alfajeffster
Aug 18th, 2004, 12:37 PM
Martina still is outspoken - she wont win this popularity contest but who really cares?
Dykes on Bikes at the front of every Pride parade on this planet still care, so show a little more pride, sis. I'm sure Steffi isn't logging in to read these posts, and probably would be very proud if Jaz Elle turned out to be a productive member of the global community...

ys
Aug 18th, 2004, 12:49 PM
Martina is an icon, a feminist revolutionary and a true sports heroine
As always, I prefer counter-revolution.. :lol:

Helen Lawson
Aug 18th, 2004, 12:51 PM
Dykes on Bikes at the front of every Pride parade on this planet still care, so show a little more pride, sis. I'm sure Steffi isn't logging in to read these posts, and probably would be very proud if Jaz Elle turned out to be a productive member of the global community...
Dykes on Bikes sounds like one of Jennifer North's "art" films she made in France.

alfajeffster
Aug 18th, 2004, 01:08 PM
Dykes on Bikes sounds like one of Jennifer North's "art" films she made in France.
Well it certainly wasn't Peter North, because I have all of his messy art films...:lol:

nash
Aug 18th, 2004, 01:50 PM
When Steffi came on the scene and began dominating Evert and Navratilova, it was clear that she was something that the tennis world had never seen before.

I remember Bud Collins saying at Wimbledon one year, "If this young woman can take full advantage of her volleying potential, maybe they can close up the women's game".

That's how great Steffi was. Even with Martina around, everyone knew that no one could touch Steffi when she was on.

Martina herself was totally intimidated by Steffi's power & speed. During the late 80's, Martina was ON A MISSION to beat Steffi. It was her obsession in every tournament. You could see it in her eyes - she knew Steffi was better, and had a very tough time dealing with it.

And, just to let you know, yes - I am old enough to have witnessed it...

spencercarlos
Aug 18th, 2004, 01:56 PM
Martina is the most complete player ever to have played, so acomplished in singles and doubles, but without any doubt Steffi tops Martina in singles department, and when compared in singles acomplishments, Steffi wins without any doubt.

bandabou
Aug 18th, 2004, 02:07 PM
In singles it´s all about Steffi imo...although it was a bit unfair to compare a 18 year old Graf to a 32 or 33 Martina N.

alfajeffster
Aug 18th, 2004, 02:13 PM
Martina is the most complete player ever to have played
How many players have you actually seen play, either on video or on TV or live? I don't mean to belittle your comment, but I have to say this because I was once guilty of trying to quantify the "best ever" and have since learned that it is totally impossible to live in any moment other than the present. In fact, to borrow a thought from Ellen Degeneres- I'm busy procrastinating the present.

*roddicksinme*
Aug 18th, 2004, 02:35 PM
steffi is the greatest ever :worship:

Steffica Greles
Aug 18th, 2004, 02:44 PM
I go for Graf on clay, Navratilova on hard, Navratilova on grass and Navratilova on carpet.

In each case, I'd only favour the winner by 6-4.

So, Navratilova (in her prime).

spencercarlos
Aug 18th, 2004, 03:06 PM
How many players have you actually seen play, either on video or on TV or live? I don't mean to belittle your comment, but I have to say this because I was once guilty of trying to quantify the "best ever" and have since learned that it is totally impossible to live in any moment other than the present. In fact, to borrow a thought from Ellen Degeneres- I'm busy procrastinating the present.
Well i think i misspelled my comment a little but, i just wanted to say that Martina was more complete, related to her achievements in singles, doubles and mixed doubles, she was the second best in singles and without any doubt the best in doubles, a very complete career. For me the most complete player, has to be Steffi Graf, she had such complete game that enabled her to be sucessful on any surface, against any oponnent.
And about how long i have been watching tennis? Well since 1992, but i was able to get some old tapes, and i was able to watch some of Martina-Chrissy matches and some Gaby older than 92 matches as well.

DA FOREHAND
Aug 18th, 2004, 03:24 PM
Martina N..just for overall greatness. 18 vs 22 in singles, but the doubles gap is tooo huge.
This isn't a doubles match so......why are so many bringing in Martina's doubles accomplishments? Shriver never heldped Martina win a singles match.


STEFFI GRAF :worship: :worship: :worship:

alfajeffster
Aug 18th, 2004, 03:29 PM
Well i think i misspelled my comment a little but, i just wanted to say that Martina was more complete, related to her achievements in singles, doubles and mixed doubles, she was the second best in singles and without any doubt the best in doubles, a very complete career. For me the most complete player, has to be Steffi Graf, she had such complete game that enabled her to be sucessful on any surface, against any oponnent.
And about how long i have been watching tennis? Well since 1992, but i was able to get some old tapes, and i was able to watch some of Martina-Chrissy matches and some Gaby older than 92 matches as well.
Don't stop there! Get your hands on some vintage Evonne Goolagong or Billie Jean King or Margaret Court or Virginia Wade or Maria Bueno tapes- you won't be disappointed, trust me! Maria Bueno is still the most successful and famous tennis player ever to come out of South America- male or female. She had, and still does have all the shots in the book, and is a great champion who, unfortunately for us, wasn't able to play much in the "open era" of tennis post-1968.

spencercarlos
Aug 18th, 2004, 03:40 PM
Don't stop there! Get your hands on some vintage Evonne Goolagong or Billie Jean King or Margaret Court or Virginia Wade or Maria Bueno tapes- you won't be disappointed, trust me! Maria Bueno is still the most successful and famous tennis player ever to come out of South America- male or female. She had, and still does have all the shots in the book, and is a great champion who, unfortunately for us, wasn't able to play much in the "open era" of tennis post-1968.
;) I wish i could get those realy old old matches.

ttaM
Aug 18th, 2004, 03:58 PM
Last time I bothered looking Martina had 60 or so more singles titles than Steffi. So I guess I have to vote for Martina if were going on titles alone. :worship:

buscemi
Aug 18th, 2004, 04:24 PM
I'll probably be surprising the Graf fans by voting for Graf. My critical match-up is going to be:

1988-06-22 Wimbledon Grass F Steffi Graf (GER) 5-7 6-2 6-1

Here's the thing -- to give Navratilova the win for any of her victories pre-1988 is unfair to Graf b/c what are you doing? You're penalizing Graf for losing to Navi early in her career. But by any standard, Graf had a much better earlier part of her career than did Navi. Therefore, I pick '88, when Graf ascended to the top and beat a still-very-game Navratilova on her favorite surface.

As great as Navi was, she essentially finally got the edge over Evert simply by being the first woman to really do conditioning, allowing her to pick up Evert's steady, but not esepcially powerful grounstrokes while at net in addition to charging in off of her steady but not especially powerful serve. Graf had both the conditioning and the power. I pick Steffi in 3 tough sets -- 5-7, 7-5, 6-4.

alfajeffster
Aug 18th, 2004, 05:03 PM
As great as Navi was, she essentially finally got the edge over Evert simply by being the first woman to really do conditioning, allowing her to pick up Evert's steady, but not esepcially powerful grounstrokes while at net in addition to charging in off of her steady but not especially powerful serve.
A popular misconception, I'll give you that. Margaret Smith (Court) was the first female tennis player to effectively use weights and cross-training to build herself into peak condition, and she had a more powerful serve and more consistent grounstrokes than Martina Navratilova. Chris Evert lost her edge to Martina through a calculated, computerized effort by team Navratilova to systematically de-throne Evert from the top of the women's game in the early 80s. Martina lived, breathed, and took signals to help direct her ascension to the throne held by Evert, and she succeeded magnificently- largely because there was no really great serve-and-volley contemporary to put up any kind of resistence.

Crazy_Fool
Aug 18th, 2004, 05:08 PM
Nav

I have to say that Graf was quite lucky, she didn't have that much competition all of the time, whereas i think Martina did.

Sofiane
Aug 18th, 2004, 05:19 PM
Nav

I have to say that Graf was quite lucky, she didn't have that much competition all of the time, whereas i think Martina did.
Is she as Lucky as JHH, when she won her slams?

alfajeffster
Aug 18th, 2004, 05:34 PM
Nav

I have to say that Graf was quite lucky, she didn't have that much competition all of the time, whereas i think Martina did.
Navratilova and Evert for the first few years, then Seles, and eventually Hingis and the Williams sisters- not much competition?:confused:

Kart
Aug 18th, 2004, 05:57 PM
Normally I'd vote for Steffi but some of her fans have irritated me recently so I'm voting for Martina.

Yes I'm fickle, deal with it.

irma
Aug 18th, 2004, 06:00 PM
Normally I'd vote for Steffi but some of her fans have irritated me recently so I'm voting for Martina.

Yes I'm fickle, deal with it.
Kart :kiss:

Crazy_Fool
Aug 18th, 2004, 06:00 PM
Is she as Lucky as JHH, when she won her slams?
Yeah, no competition.

Crazy_Fool
Aug 18th, 2004, 06:02 PM
Navratilova and Evert for the first few years, then Seles, and eventually Hingis and the Williams sisters- not much competition?:confused:
Hingis and the Williams Sisters?? How many GS did she actually win with those around. Not many for sure. Seles for a bit, Nav and Evert for a bit, nothing much in between.

alfajeffster
Aug 18th, 2004, 06:03 PM
Normally I'd vote for Steffi but some of her fans have irritated me recently so I'm voting for Martina.

Yes I'm fickle, deal with it.
Now, now, let's not be rash about such irritations- one might think you were tanking a match just to be able to wear the medal!:lol:

Kart
Aug 18th, 2004, 06:03 PM
Kart :kiss:
:hug:

alfajeffster
Aug 18th, 2004, 06:07 PM
Hingis and the Williams Sisters?? How many GS did she actually win with those around. Not many for sure. Seles for a bit, Nav and Evert for a bit, nothing much in between.
The same kind of thing could be said about Navratilova's career. How many majors did she win playing someone besides Evert in the final? I don't think there is an all-time great who didn't have patches of smooth sailing.

SelesFan70
Aug 18th, 2004, 06:16 PM
Steffi would win, but I'm sure Navratilova would have some lame excuse. :tape:

Calimero377
Aug 18th, 2004, 06:51 PM
Martina is an icon, a feminist revolutionary and a true sports heroine, she made womens tennis what it is today, or she certainly gave it a huge shove.

Graff cannot compete with all of the accomplishents Martina has, Graff has 4 more singles slams but is way below Martinas total Grand Slam haul of 50 something.

Martina also made more Slam Finals than Graff ....

Graff is a great player howeve Martina is a few shoulder length above, if we really think about it.

Martina SHOULD WIN IT

Steven.


When Stevven says so, Nuvratoliva must be better .....


:lol:

selking
Aug 18th, 2004, 06:53 PM
navratilova is the greatest ever. No contest. No matter how this poll turns out she will always be considered the best ever by many of the people in the world

Calimero377
Aug 18th, 2004, 06:59 PM
When Steffi came on the scene and began dominating Evert and Navratilova, it was clear that she was something that the tennis world had never seen before.

I remember Bud Collins saying at Wimbledon one year, "If this young woman can take full advantage of her volleying potential, maybe they can close up the women's game".

That's how great Steffi was. Even with Martina around, everyone knew that no one could touch Steffi when she was on.

Martina herself was totally intimidated by Steffi's power & speed. During the late 80's, Martina was ON A MISSION to beat Steffi. It was her obsession in every tournament. You could see it in her eyes - she knew Steffi was better, and had a very tough time dealing with it.

And, just to let you know, yes - I am old enough to have witnessed it...

Do you remember Wimbledon 88?
When Steffi hit 21 clean return winners, broke Navi in last 7 service games?
When Navi made only 18 UEs but Steffi's 79 winners won the day?
What Steffi played in 2nd and 3rd set is - still - the best a woman ever has played. Period.
Case closed.



:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

selking
Aug 18th, 2004, 07:00 PM
martina is the greatest. No numbers or whatever can deny that. Shes the best

Emiel Goelen
Aug 18th, 2004, 07:02 PM
Although I always liked watching Steffi better than watching Martina, I'm going with Navratilova on this one. She truly is the greatest, a living legend in women's tennis!

nash
Aug 18th, 2004, 07:14 PM
Someone is cheating in this poll. Steffi was up by around 15-20 votes, but now is only up by three. I smell something fishy going on here...

miranda_lou
Aug 18th, 2004, 07:22 PM
I wish i could get those realy old old matches
The Tennis Channel shows old matches all the time.:kiss: I really enjoy watching them but I think the serve of most of the women looks a little ridiculous . . . and really, really slow.:o But I do love watching Evonne move so gracefully around the court. Margaret Court looks a bit "manly" in my opinion . . . very tall and very ungainly.:lol:

Anyway, my vote is for Steffi Graf because she's the best and don't anybody argue with me.:fiery: :devil:

steffilover
Aug 18th, 2004, 07:31 PM
no, there's nothing fishy going on...i'm sure all the hingis fans and monica fans have thought long and hard about this poll and will vote with their heads and not their hearts...:rolleyes:

LDVTennis
Aug 18th, 2004, 07:45 PM
Do you remember Wimbledon 88?
When Steffi hit 21 clean return winners, broke Navi in last 7 service games?
When Navi made only 18 UEs but Steffi's 79 winners won the day?
What Steffi played in 2nd and 3rd set is - still - the best a woman ever has played. Period.
Case closed.



:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

That is the definitive match between them, isn't it.

A few notes about that match:

At Wimbledon, Graf had the ability to literally stun her opponents with her athleticism. Against Navratilova, she chased down a drop volley, sprinting all the way from the baseline. Martina must have been stunned by Graf's speed. She didn't move until Graf had bunted the ball over the net for a winner.

Graf was quoted as saying that she was angry with the way she had played in the first set of the match. One year after losing to Martina in the '87 Final, she thought in all frankness that she was a much better player. She came out in the second and third sets determined to demonstrate that she was a better player. And, I think she did.

Martina's grass court skills would have triumphed over any other player that year at Wimbledon. Graf neutralized those skills with her speed and a rather athletic strategy. If Graf couldn't pass Martina outright, Graf knew that the key would be to get Martina to hit a defensive first volley. Graf could then chase down the ball, as only she could, and hit the ball past Martina.

selking
Aug 18th, 2004, 07:49 PM
Someone is cheating in this poll. Steffi was up by around 15-20 votes, but now is only up by three. I smell something fishy going on here...

yea well someone cheated in the monica vs steffi poll. Monica was up by like 15 or 20 AND STEFFI ENDED UP GETTING LIKE 99 VOTES

Helen Lawson
Aug 18th, 2004, 07:50 PM
Someone is cheating in this poll. Steffi was up by around 15-20 votes, but now is only up by three. I smell something fishy going on here...
Does anyone really care what the outcome of this poll is?

selking
Aug 18th, 2004, 07:55 PM
yea

Stamp Paid
Aug 18th, 2004, 07:56 PM
Someone is cheating in this poll. Steffi was up by around 15-20 votes, but now is only up by three. I smell something fishy going on here...
Yes, its quite pathetic when someone will take the effort to skew a hypothetical poll that means absolutely nothing.

selking
Aug 18th, 2004, 07:56 PM
i dont think anyone could do that many names. I mean who has that many email accounts?

tennisIlove09
Aug 18th, 2004, 07:57 PM
Impossible to choose. Graf won more majors, but Navratilova has the doubles record behind her. You can make a solid case for either.

Helen Lawson
Aug 18th, 2004, 07:59 PM
yea
I guess if you care, you care, but really, it's just an informal on-line poll on a message board that doesn't mean anything. It's not like the outcome of this poll has any effect on anything. You could tell from the start it would be a Martina/Steffi "final" with Steffi probably winning, this "contest" has only been done about a gazillion times. I'm sure Martina and Steffi are checking the results with bated breath. Anyway, I don't know why someone would cheat on a poll that is meaningless anyway. Is anyone going to sigh in relief, happy at the results?

It's like doing an Oscar poll on who should have won. Who cares? The winner is the winner.

buscemi
Aug 18th, 2004, 07:59 PM
When Steffi came on the scene and began dominating Evert and Navratilova, it was clear that she was something that the tennis world had never seen before.

I remember Bud Collins saying at Wimbledon one year, "If this young woman can take full advantage of her volleying potential, maybe they can close up the women's game".

That's how great Steffi was. Even with Martina around, everyone knew that no one could touch Steffi when she was on.

Martina herself was totally intimidated by Steffi's power & speed. During the late 80's, Martina was ON A MISSION to beat Steffi. It was her obsession in every tournament. You could see it in her eyes - she knew Steffi was better, and had a very tough time dealing with it.

And, just to let you know, yes - I am old enough to have witnessed it...

This is a bit too much hyperbole for me. Martina still played quite well against Steffi and ended up 9-9 against her. And at most, people had that fear of Graf for 2 years.

selking
Aug 18th, 2004, 08:02 PM
I guess if you care, you care, but really, it's just an informal on-line poll on a message board that doesn't mean anything. It's not like the outcome of this poll has any effect on anything. You could tell from the start it would be a Martina/Steffi "final" with Steffi probably winning, this "contest" has only been done about a gazillion times. I'm sure Martina and Steffi are checking the results with bated breath. Anyway, I don't know why someone would cheat on a poll that is meaningless anyway. Is anyone going to sigh in relief, happy at the results?

It's like doing an Oscar poll on who should have won. Who cares? The winner is the winner.

I just want to know who is the most liked. Its an inteserting question. It is said that monica is but she was beaten. I just wish that people couldn't vote more then once. I want to know the truth.

Helen Lawson
Aug 18th, 2004, 08:08 PM
Do a poll, "who is most liked." This was supposed to be some sort of fantasy who would win crap, like who cares, they played a bunch of times for real, so some people vote on head to head, records, career, or who they like. Do a poll on most liked, Monica will win almost certainly. Sorry, I just think polls like this are sort of silly.

FaceyFacem
Aug 18th, 2004, 08:12 PM
sorry Helen, fortunately for you this is the last one, anyway, back to teh topic at hand, i think navratilova is the greatest women's tennis player of all time, does that mean at her peak and steffi's peak martina would win? no. it doesn't, martina has accomplished things that clearly mark her as greatest of all time, but i think serena will go down as a greater player of all time than arantxa, but as a voted in the other poll, i think arantxa could beat her because she gives her trouble in the matchup, and also, nalbandian won't be a greater champion than federer, but nalbandian always troubles federer, etc. etc., i think steffi would win this match, but i do agree martina is prob greatest of alltime, maybe that's not how all are voting, but whatever, anyway, at the time of this post it was 77-77, that is just a testament to how close this matchup is

tennislover
Aug 18th, 2004, 08:12 PM
OMG! I voted for Martina.There is no question about it:Martina is not only the best player ever but she is also the best athlete in the history of modern sports.....
She, who is 47 years old, is still showing supreme class, talent, elegance, tecnique etc
She has scored unbelievable records (167 singles tournaments and 175 doubles tournaments etc etc etc) but apart of those numbers, the most important thing is this: she is the perfection in tennis
Have you ever seen a better serve or any better net game than Martina's? I haven't. The quality of her game is supreme, stellar, unique..........
Gio from Italy

stevenPRIDE
Aug 18th, 2004, 08:43 PM
Martina is the best...the only reason Graff is in this....and graff is such an awsome champ, i love her to bits and shes such a class act through and through. I do however feel Graff simply gets many votes because of the 4 extra slams, however, god bless her shes WONDERFULL, shes not the best ever, Martina is.

Its my opinion but i keep posting because i genuinely feel Martina deserves this honour, she simply does.

Steve.

KoOlMaNsEaN
Aug 18th, 2004, 08:51 PM
martina

steffilover
Aug 18th, 2004, 09:48 PM
Martina is the best...the only reason Graff is in this....and graff is such an awsome champ, i love her to bits and shes such a class act through and through. I do however feel Graff simply gets many votes because of the 4 extra slams, however, god bless her shes WONDERFULL, shes not the best ever, Martina is.

Its my opinion but i keep posting because i genuinely feel Martina deserves this honour, she simply does.

Steve.
mr pride, i do hope u got my pm from today...if so, ur demeanour doesn't show it.:tape:
r u one of the sycophantic sidekicks of Robert1? u both have the uncanny knack of spelling atrociously - not just the great steffi's surname (that's GRAF), but also entirely commonplace words like WONDERFUL and AWESOME.
Believe me, carrying urself with dignity does a great deal for ur reputation - ask steffi - and exactly WHAT would a prissy, fey, over-excited, under-intelligent ingenu know about CLASS ACTS? did robert1 ask u to write that in? or did u think of it and type it in ur little self?
The thought that anyone anywhere might read ur drivel and be swayed in their decision is risible, as are all of ur infantile posts.

raquel
Aug 18th, 2004, 09:58 PM
mr pride, i do hope u got my pm from today...if so, ur demeanour doesn't show it.:tape:
r u one of the sycophantic sidekicks of Robert1? u both have the uncanny knack of spelling atrociously - not just the great steffi's surname (that's GRAF), but also entirely commonplace words like WONDERFUL and AWESOME.
Believe me, carrying urself with dignity does a great deal for ur reputation - ask steffi - and exactly WHAT would a prissy, fey, over-excited, under-intelligent ingenu know about CLASS ACTS? did robert1 ask u to write that in? or did u think of it and type it in ur little self?
The thought that anyone anywhere might read ur drivel and be swayed in their decision is risible, as are all of ur infantile posts.
Talk about getting personal. All the guy said was he thought Martina is the greatest. Who are you to call him 'prissy, fey, over-excited and under-intelligent'? It is possible people think Martina is greater without being 'under-intelligent'. That has to be one of the most arrogant and pathetic posts I have read on here. And what right have you to get onto people about spelling when you are tying 'ur' insted of 'your'. Carrying yourself with dignity may be something Steffi did, but you certainly are not. Take a leaf out of her book yourself rather then attacking people and talking down to them just because they don't agree with you. And if you are going to nit pick about spelling it is 'ingenue' not 'ingenu'.

grmbl
Aug 18th, 2004, 10:12 PM
Soooooo close!

tennislover
Aug 18th, 2004, 10:17 PM
Talk about getting personal. All the guy said was he thought Martina is the greatest. Who are you to call him 'prissy, fey, over-excited and under-intelligent'? It is possible people think Martina is greater without being 'under-intelligent'. That has to be one of the most arrogant and pathetic posts I have read on here. And what right have you to get onto people about spelling when you are tying 'ur' insted of 'your'. Carrying yourself with dignity may be something Steffi did, but you certainly are not. Take a leaf out of her book yourself rather then attacking people and talking down to them just because they don't agree with you. And if you are going to nit pick about spelling it is 'ingenue' not 'ingenu'.

I agree with you, raquel
It's important not to offend people personally..... We are talking about tennis players, not about people who send their posts......
Gio

wongqks
Aug 18th, 2004, 10:23 PM
Martina

Kart
Aug 18th, 2004, 10:29 PM
mr pride, i do hope u got my pm from today...if so, ur demeanour doesn't show it.:tape:
r u one of the sycophantic sidekicks of Robert1? u both have the uncanny knack of spelling atrociously - not just the great steffi's surname (that's GRAF), but also entirely commonplace words like WONDERFUL and AWESOME.
Believe me, carrying urself with dignity does a great deal for ur reputation - ask steffi - and exactly WHAT would a prissy, fey, over-excited, under-intelligent ingenu know about CLASS ACTS? did robert1 ask u to write that in? or did u think of it and type it in ur little self?
The thought that anyone anywhere might read ur drivel and be swayed in their decision is risible, as are all of ur infantile posts.
You're nasty.

There's no need to be like that really.

tennisiscool
Aug 18th, 2004, 10:33 PM
Martina with a slender lead. Close this poll already :)

!<blocparty>!
Aug 18th, 2004, 10:38 PM
wow, this is close!

steffilover
Aug 18th, 2004, 10:41 PM
Talk about getting personal. All the guy said was he thought Martina is the greatest. Who are you to call him 'prissy, fey, over-excited and under-intelligent'? It is possible people think Martina is greater without being 'under-intelligent'. That has to be one of the most arrogant and pathetic posts I have read on here. And what right have you to get onto people about spelling when you are tying 'ur' insted of 'your'. Carrying yourself with dignity may be something Steffi did, but you certainly are not. Take a leaf out of her book yourself rather then attacking people and talking down to them just because they don't agree with you. And if you are going to nit pick about spelling it is 'ingenue' not 'ingenu'.
1. "Ur" is an accepted abbreviation worldwide in texts, e-mails and posts for "your" or "you're".

2. Who asked u for ur opinion?

3. read this idiot's past posts before u blindly stick up for him - i know whereof i speak...

4. If u think this is an "arrogant and pathetic" post u can't have actually READ many of the posts in these threads...too busy posting ur own biting, hard-edged, insightful diatribes, no doubt:rolleyes:

5. nit-pick should be hyphenated - dumbo!:lol:

6. ur right - I should have used "ingenue", the feminine form of "ingenu" for our stephen.

7. who asked u for ur opinion?

8. carrying herself with dignity is most CERTAINLY something steffi did - thankfully, i'm a mere mortal and don't have to subscribe to her lofty standards and don't demand that kind of perfection from myself!!:devil:

9. who asked u for ur opinion?

10. just to make it a nice round figure - possibly like ur own, raquel?:kiss:

FaceyFacem
Aug 18th, 2004, 10:48 PM
30 minutes left! AAHHH!! steffi is so close...who knows about the last few minutes...

tennisiscool
Aug 18th, 2004, 10:49 PM
30 minutes left! AAHHH!! steffi is so close...who knows about the last few minutes...
Close it NOW please :)

FaceyFacem
Aug 18th, 2004, 11:11 PM
oh my god, whoa, i don't know how steffi made such a HUGE comeback in the last 15 minutes! nav supporters! last 10 min!

raquel
Aug 18th, 2004, 11:15 PM
2. Who asked u for ur opinion?

I don't have to be asked. It's called free speech.

3. read this idiot's past posts before u blindly stick up for him - i know whereof i speak...

I read his posts in this thread and he says nothing that would suggest he is an idiot on this subject anyway. He thinks Martina's greater than Steffi - it's not an uncommon opinion judging by the closeness of the poll

4. If u think this is an "arrogant and pathetic" post u can't have actually READ many of the posts in these threads...too busy posting ur own biting, hard-edged, insightful diatribes, no doubt:rolleyes: I've read quite a lot of threads since I joined here and I thought that post was arrogant and pathetic. I don't think I post too many hard-edged diatribes, but I also don't insult other posters based on the fact they spell a word wrong or like someone other than my favourite. I am also not arrogant because any favourite of mine has achieved more than a favourite of someone else like your 'What does a Daniela Hantuchova fan know about tennis?' question.

dumbo!:lol:

If we took a poll of people on this thread to see which of us is the dumbo, I am pretty confident I will be second and it won't be as close as this Steffi v Martina poll :)


7. who asked u for ur opinion?

No one. I don't need to be asked

8. carrying herself with dignity is most CERTAINLY something steffi did - thankfully, i'm a mere mortal and don't have to subscribe to her lofty standards and don't demand that kind of perfection from myself!!:devil:

If you don't carry yourself with Steffi's dignity, why are you getting on Stephen's back for not either?

9. who asked u for ur opinion?

No one. I don't need to be asked.

10. just to make it a nice round figure - possibly like ur own, raquel?:kiss:

Very passive agressive. I don't agree with you so a little dig at trying to make me feel bad in the off chance I have a 'nice round figure'? Miaow! I may be a size 8, I may be a size 28, what does that matter? Even if I did have a large figure, I am sure I wouldn't let someone on here make me feel bad about it.

Calimero, all is forgiven!

I see Steffi has overtaken in a very short space of time. Who created those usernames so fast? I say do this again and make it a public poll :lol:

gRaFiC
Aug 18th, 2004, 11:18 PM
Steffi won her 22 slams in the shortest time. First being French '87 the last being French 99. Greatest singles player, yes!

steffilover
Aug 18th, 2004, 11:28 PM
I don't have to be asked. It's called free speech.



I read his posts in this thread and he says nothing that would suggest he is an idiot on this subject anyway. He thinks Martina's greater than Steffi - it's not an uncommon opinion judging by the closeness of the poll

I've read quite a lot of threads since I joined here and I thought that post was arrogant and pathetic. I don't think I post too many hard-edged diatribes, but I also don't insult other posters based on the fact they spell a word wrong or like someone other than my favourite. I am also not arrogant because any favourite of mine has achieved more than a favourite of someone else like your 'What does a Daniela Hantuchova fan know about tennis?' question.



If we took a poll of people on this thread to see which of us is the dumbo, I am pretty confident I will be second and it won't be as close as this Steffi v Martina poll :)




No one. I don't need to be asked



If you don't carry yourself with Steffi's dignity, why are you getting on Stephen's back for not either?



No one. I don't need to be asked.



Very passive agressive. I don't agree with you so a little dig at trying to make me feel bad in the off chance I have a 'nice round figure'? Miaow! I may be a size 8, I may be a size 28, what does that matter? Even if I did have a large figure, I am sure I wouldn't let someone on here make me feel bad about it.

Calimero, all is forgiven!

I see Steffi has overtaken in a very short space of time. Who created those usernames so fast? I say do this again and make it a public poll :lol:
1. "NO-ONE" should be hyphenated, DUMBO!
2. "AGGRESSIVE" has 2 g's.
3. U probably wud win the poll, but that wud only speak volumes about the people posting and say very LITTLE about u or our friend Stephen!!:lol:

steffilover
Aug 18th, 2004, 11:30 PM
Phew! steffi won after all - almost restores my faith in the posters on here.....almost!

selking
Aug 18th, 2004, 11:45 PM
wow i go to bed wake up anf ind that someone cheated and made up name to give steffi the win. Whatever

raquel
Aug 18th, 2004, 11:45 PM
1. "NO-ONE" should be hyphenated, DUMBO!
2. "AGGRESSIVE" has 2 g's.
3. U probably wud win the poll, but that wud only speak volumes about the people posting and say very LITTLE about u or our friend Stephen!!:lol:
Phew! steffi won after all - almost restores my faith in the posters on here.....almost!

You have a way too superior attitude. Talking down to everyone. If correcting punctuation and spelling gives you your kicks, then knock yourself out. Steffi won the poll and your faith is almost restored in the posters here? Well isn't that great. We can all sleep easy tonight knowing we almost have your approval.

Czechfan said that Steffi fans were arrogant in the thread about who has the most annoying fans. I wouldn't generalise that far, but if Czechfan was trying to prove his point, you would be Exhibit A.

Congrats to Steffi on winning the poll. I don't think it proves she is the greatest because she won a poll of 200 or so tennis fans, but she will always be one of the greatest.

Philbo
Aug 18th, 2004, 11:54 PM
Steffilover is in fact a perfect example of the arrogance and complete and utter insecurity Graf fans live in...I call it their 'la la land of fantasy and make beleive"...

LOL@people using Wimbledon 88 as the 'definitive' matchup between the two...whoever says that shows their age...the fact was in that match that Martina had a leg injury (cant remember the exact injury but agassi suffered the same thing about 3 years ago and pulled out of wimbledon) - it was a thigh injury, the first set Martina won, then there was a rain delay of about 25 minutes, just long enough for Martina to cool down and for the tightness and pain to set in - if anyone actually watched the match you can totally see she wasnt moving anywhere near her best...

Graf deserved the win that day...but to use that match as a 'definitive' matchup is just laughable...

Why does 87 not count? Graf was # 1 that year and only lost 2 matches all year - to Martina in the wimbledon and us finals - funny how Graf fans ignore that year (even though its the closest year where both were at their peak) and then want to use 88 as the year where both were closest to tehir prime...

Anyway Martina did better than I thought she would in the poll..Its comforting to know that even though Graf fans try and try and try in vain to rewrite history and live in denial re the stabbings effect - good to know theres a large % of people out there who wont forget...

steffilover
Aug 19th, 2004, 12:05 AM
Raquel, I see from ur signature that ur an arantxa fan - that explains everything!:lol:
And if i seem superior, it's only because i am!!!:kiss:

gRaFiC
Aug 19th, 2004, 12:15 AM
whoever says that shows their age...the fact was in that match that Martina had a leg injury (cant remember the exact injury but agassi suffered the same thing about 3 years ago and pulled out of wimbledon) - it was a thigh injury, the first set Martina won, then there was a rain delay of about 25 minutes, just long enough for Martina to cool down and for the tightness and pain to set in - if anyone actually watched the match you can totally see she wasnt moving anywhere near her best...

Graf deserved the win that day...but to use that match as a 'definitive' matchup is just laughable

I'm sure if you looked at every match that was ever played you could say such and such lost because of whatever, the sun was in my eyes...

I could type and type as to why Steffi lost all her matches. God knows she's had the injuries but it's just ungracious. If you play a match and lose, too bad. If you were injured and lost, too bad, you chose to play.

raquel
Aug 19th, 2004, 12:34 AM
Raquel, I see from ur signature that ur an arantxa fan - that explains everything!:lol:
And if i seem superior, it's only because i am!!!:kiss:
Well thank goodness other Graf fans on here do not act like that simply because Steffi won more than other people's favourites. I only have good things to say about Steffi Graf. She was an amazing champion. As an Arantxa fan the fact Arantxa even beat Steffi 4 times in Grand Slams is a great achievement she can be proud of. I just think your attitude has been pretty bad in this thread.

Cybelle Darkholme
Aug 19th, 2004, 12:37 AM
I dont care what this poll says: martina navritilova is THE greatest tennis player ever. She has done more as a tennis player than any other woman including miss graf.

I mean graf doesnt even have the most slams so how in the world could she be the greatest? Court has more singles slams than steffi. So if your going to focus on a players entire career instead of selectively focusing on only one aspect of tennis then its beyond clear that Nav is the winner.

steffilover
Aug 19th, 2004, 01:46 AM
selking, i dont know why u have to write a private message to me to say "fu*k u asshole"?:confused:
is that what ud like to do to me, or is it some neanderthal threat?:lol:
everyone here knows about u and ur potty mouth...no need to hide it!!!:rolleyes:

steffilover
Aug 19th, 2004, 01:47 AM
BTW, read my sig - steffi is the UNDISPUTED queen of tennis - u might want to change urs!;)

Philbo
Aug 19th, 2004, 02:09 AM
Grafic - I agree with your point, Im just so accustomed to debating with graf fans who generally have an excuse for EVERY loss Graf ever went though...

When she lost to Martina early on in their head to head it was because she was not developed, when she lost to Martina or Monica or anyone at her peak it was becuase Daddy was fucking strippers and cheating on taxes, when she lost to the Williams and Hingis etc it ws because she was past her peak and injureis had taken their toll...

There is even a thread floating around asking the question "did Graf ever lose a match' - it aint just me that thinks that Graf fans have an excuse for every loss...

I hands down think Graf was the best player at Wimbledon 88... But Martina was injured during that match and I jsut dont understand why anyone would use that match as a 'definitive' matchup between the two players...

Wimbledon 87 is more definitive... Graf was a grand slam champ, undefeated all year, had been on tour over 4 years (which is long enough to make a real impact), the new # 1 - close enough to her peak, and Martina clocked her in both the Wimbledon and US Finals in straight sets and served for the French ON CLAY and only lost cuz she choked...

selking
Aug 19th, 2004, 02:37 AM
BTW, read my sig - steffi is the UNDISPUTED queen of tennis - u might want to change urs!;)

o yea your PINK sig. Sorry but monica is better then steffi. Even if you make multiple handles to make stefii win some poll

mboyle
Aug 19th, 2004, 02:55 AM
Steffilover, you are a vile brat. I do not know your age, but you present yourself to be a grossly conceited eighth grader with serious tunnel vision.

LDVTennis
Aug 19th, 2004, 03:38 AM
I dont care what this poll says: martina navritilova is THE greatest tennis player ever. She has done more as a tennis player than any other woman including miss graf.

I mean graf doesnt even have the most slams so how in the world could she be the greatest? Court has more singles slams than steffi. So if your going to focus on a players entire career instead of selectively focusing on only one aspect of tennis then its beyond clear that Nav is the winner.

So, she doesn't have the most slams. Margaret Court does. But, who (Court or Graf) won each slam at least 4 times?

Which of the two played and triumphed against three generations of tennis' best - Evert/Navratilova, Seles, Hingis/Davenport and Williams/Williams? (And before you claim that Martina in her comeback is proving she can compete against the current generation of players, let me remind you of one Gisela Dulko. You do remember her, don't you? She's not exactly Venus, Serena, Davenport, et. al, is she? So, let's get the score right. In her comeback, Martina can hardly beat Dulko. In her last year on the tour, Graf had victories against Hingis, Davenport, Venus, and Serena.)

And, now that you find some truth in awarding the greatest ever title on the basis of career accomplishments and performance, let's not forget that Martina's career isn't all wine and roses, more like Cheese-Wiz and crackers. Before Martina decided to get into shape she too had a Seles-like infatuation with butter. On the contrary, Graf appeared on day one as a fit athlete, young, maybe a bit wirey, but nevertheless fit. She only became fitter and fitter after that.

Above all, let's not forget that as a champion Martina leaves a lot to be desired. After all, it was Martina who added emphasis to Tauziat's complaints that Monica moaned too loud at Wimbledon. What a sore loser!

It was also Martina who in her role as HBO commentator remarked that Graf made up excuses just in case she lost. Graf won that year ('96) and put Martina on notice that remarks like that were unfair. Guess if all of your accomplishments on the court still don't earn you the title of greatest ever, you can always do what Martina N. did. Use your role as a commentator to tarnish the reputation of the woman who clearly was on the verge of being the greatest ever. What else could explain Martina calling Steffi a "groupie" a few years later because she was accompanying her boyfriend Agassi from tournament to tournament. For someone who represents herself as being enlightened, this is one of the most paternalistic things you could imagine ever saying about another woman. (Advice to you, Martina. Even because you got taken to the cleaners by one of your lovers, it doesn't mean that others can't genuinely fall in love, specifically women with men.)

That's not the only time Martina has come out on the wrong side. Take her reponse to the "plays like a man" scandal. Where was the strident lesbian when her own namesake Martina Hingis made homophobic remarks about Mauresmo? Did she come to Mauresmo's defense? No, she actually tried to explain away what Hingis said. Now, is it any wonder Mauresmo doesn't like Martina N? I think her word for her is "rigid." In French, the word "rigid" is quite a put down.

And, finally, we have this example of Martina behaving badly. After her first round loss at the French Open this year, she brags at the news conference that she would have had no problem beating Dulko if the surface was grass. A true champion would have just shut up after acknowledging how well Dulko played. Not Martina. Flashforward a month or so. Wimbledon. Dulko approaches the net after just beating Martina on grass. She extends her hand and kisses Martina on both cheeks. Now that is class. Martina, take a lesson.

While she is at it, she might also take a lesson from Chris and Steffi. Nothing that they have done since retiring has served to diminish their reputation as tennis players. The more Martina plays, the more she opens her mouth (particularly about the Williams' sisters), the more Martina does to diminish her claim to be the greatest ever. And, she already needed all the help she could get with that claim because lest one forget the last time the AP polled a cadre of tennis greats on the question Steffi won the poll and no less than Wendy Turnbull and Virginia Wade voted against Martina and for Steffi. On that note, let's not forget that while Martina found a convenient reason not to attend the 50th Anniversary of the Tennis Hall of Fame no one less than Margaret Court was there. She even attended Steffi's induction ceremony the next day. If actions speak louder than words, I wonder who Margaret Court thinks was greater, Steffi or Martina.

Sorry for the rant. Just wanted to put things in perspective.

selking
Aug 19th, 2004, 03:56 AM
i was just speaking the truth. Steffilover is a prick. I only speak the truth. :)

Mr_Molik
Aug 19th, 2004, 04:00 AM
So, she doesn't have the most slams. Margaret Court does. But, who (Court or Graf) won each slam at least 4 times?

Which of the two played and triumphed against three generations of tennis' best - Evert/Navratilova, Seles, Hingis/Davenport and Williams/Williams? (And before you claim that Martina in her comeback is proving she can compete against the current generation of players, let me remind you of one Gisela Dulko. You do remember her, don't you? She's not exactly Venus, Serena, Davenport, et. al, is she? So, let's get the score right. In her comeback, Martina can hardly beat Dulko. In her last year on the tour, Graf had victories against Hingis, Davenport, Venus, and Serena.)

And, now that you find some truth in awarding the greatest ever title on the basis of career accomplishments and performance, let's not forget that Martina's career isn't all wine and roses, more like Cheese-Wiz and crackers. Before Martina decided to get into shape she too had a Seles-like infatuation with butter. On the contrary, Graf appeared on day one as a fit athlete, young, maybe a bit wirey, but nevertheless fit. She only became fitter and fitter after that.

Above all, let's not forget that as a champion Martina leaves a lot to be desired. After all, it was Martina who added emphasis to Tauziat's complaints that Monica moaned too loud at Wimbledon. What a sore loser!

It was also Martina who in her role as HBO commentator remarked that Graf made up excuses just in case she lost. Graf won that year ('96) and put Martina on notice that remarks like that were unfair. Guess if all of your accomplishments on the court still don't earn you the title of greatest ever, you can always do what Martina N. did. Use your role as a commentator to tarnish the reputation of the woman who clearly was on the verge of being the greatest ever. What else could explain Martina calling Steffi a "groupie" a few years later because she was accompanying her boyfriend Agassi from tournament to tournament. For someone who represents herself as being enlightened, this is one of the most paternalistic things you could imagine ever saying about another woman. (Advice to you, Martina. Even because you got taken to the cleaners by one of your lovers, it doesn't mean that others can't genuinely fall in love, specifically women with men.)

That's not the only time Martina has come out on the wrong side. Take her reponse to the "plays like a man" scandal. Where was the strident lesbian when her own namesake Martina Hingis made homophobic remarks about Mauresmo? Did she come to Mauresmo's defense? No, she actually tried to explain away what Hingis said. Now, is it any wonder Mauresmo doesn't like Martina N? I think her word for her is "rigid." In French, the word "rigid" is quite a put down.

And, finally, we have this example of Martina behaving badly. After her first round loss at the French Open this year, she brags at the news conference that she would have had no problem beating Dulko if the surface was grass. A true champion would have just shut up after acknowledging how well Dulko played. Not Martina. Flashforward a month or so. Wimbledon. Dulko approaches the net after just beating Martina on grass. She extends her hand and kisses Martina on both cheeks. Now that is class. Martina, take a lesson.

While she is at it, she might also take a lesson from Chris and Steffi. Nothing that they have done since retiring has served to diminish their reputation as tennis players. The more Martina plays, the more she opens her mouth (particularly about the Williams' sisters), the more Martina does to diminish her claim to be the greatest ever. And, she already needed all the help she could get with that claim because lest one forget the last time the AP polled a cadre of tennis greats on the question Steffi won the poll and no less than Wendy Turnbull and Virginia Wade voted against Martina and for Steffi. On that note, let's not forget that while Martina found a convenient reason not to attend the 50th Anniversary of the Tennis Hall of Fame no one less than Margaret Court was there. She even attended Steffi's induction ceremony the next day. If actions speak louder than words, I wonder who Margaret Court thinks was greater, Steffi or Martina.

Sorry for the rant. Just wanted to put things in perspective.
:worship: :bowdown:

Cybelle Darkholme
Aug 19th, 2004, 04:03 AM
So, she doesn't have the most slams. Margaret Court does. But, who (Court or Graf) won each slam at least 4 times?

Which of the two played and triumphed against three generations of tennis' best - Evert/Navratilova, Seles, Hingis/Davenport and Williams/Williams? (And before you claim that Martina in her comeback is proving she can compete against the current generation of players, let me remind you of one Gisela Dulko. You do remember her, don't you? She's not exactly Venus, Serena, Davenport, et. al, is she? So, let's get the score right. In her comeback, Martina can hardly beat Dulko. In her last year on the tour, Graf had victories against Hingis, Davenport, Venus, and Serena.)

And, now that you find some truth in awarding the greatest ever title on the basis of career accomplishments and performance, let's not forget that Martina's career isn't all wine and roses, more like Cheese-Wiz and crackers. Before Martina decided to get into shape she too had a Seles-like infatuation with butter. On the contrary, Graf appeared on day one as a fit athlete, young, maybe a bit wirey, but nevertheless fit. She only became fitter and fitter after that.

Above all, let's not forget that as a champion Martina leaves a lot to be desired. After all, it was Martina who added emphasis to Tauziat's complaints that Monica moaned too loud at Wimbledon. What a sore loser!

It was also Martina who in her role as HBO commentator remarked that Graf made up excuses just in case she lost. Graf won that year ('96) and put Martina on notice that remarks like that were unfair. Guess if all of your accomplishments on the court still don't earn you the title of greatest ever, you can always do what Martina N. did. Use your role as a commentator to tarnish the reputation of the woman who clearly was on the verge of being the greatest ever. What else could explain Martina calling Steffi a "groupie" a few years later because she was accompanying her boyfriend Agassi from tournament to tournament. For someone who represents herself as being enlightened, this is one of the most paternalistic things you could imagine ever saying about another woman. (Advice to you, Martina. Even because you got taken to the cleaners by one of your lovers, it doesn't mean that others can't genuinely fall in love, specifically women with men.)

That's not the only time Martina has come out on the wrong side. Take her reponse to the "plays like a man" scandal. Where was the strident lesbian when her own namesake Martina Hingis made homophobic remarks about Mauresmo? Did she come to Mauresmo's defense? No, she actually tried to explain away what Hingis said. Now, is it any wonder Mauresmo doesn't like Martina N? I think her word for her is "rigid." In French, the word "rigid" is quite a put down.

And, finally, we have this example of Martina behaving badly. After her first round loss at the French Open this year, she brags at the news conference that she would have had no problem beating Dulko if the surface was grass. A true champion would have just shut up after acknowledging how well Dulko played. Not Martina. Flashforward a month or so. Wimbledon. Dulko approaches the net after just beating Martina on grass. She extends her hand and kisses Martina on both cheeks. Now that is class. Martina, take a lesson.

While she is at it, she might also take a lesson from Chris and Steffi. Nothing that they have done since retiring has served to diminish their reputation as tennis players. The more Martina plays, the more she opens her mouth (particularly about the Williams' sisters), the more Martina does to diminish her claim to be the greatest ever. And, she already needed all the help she could get with that claim because lest one forget the last time the AP polled a cadre of tennis greats on the question Steffi won the poll and no less than Wendy Turnbull and Virginia Wade voted against Martina and for Steffi. On that note, let's not forget that while Martina found a convenient reason not to attend the 50th Anniversary of the Tennis Hall of Fame no one less than Margaret Court was there. She even attended Steffi's induction ceremony the next day. If actions speak louder than words, I wonder who Margaret Court thinks was greater, Steffi or Martina.

Sorry for the rant. Just wanted to put things in perspective.
And thats all you did is rant. I'm not going into all the she said this she said that because its irrelevant. The results on the court speak for themselves and by any defintion Martina has achieved MORE than Graf on the court. Period.

The only distinction steffi has over martina is in more single slam titles and steffi doesnt even have the most! Funny how you start to make distinctions like 4 of each slam, yeah well great, court still has more even if she doesnt have four of each. Maybe steffi can be the best ever of four of each slam. that works.

I will say that Miss "gracious" Graf told Zina G after losing to her in the wimbledon semi that it didnt matter because she wouldnt beat martina in the final. Oh yeah thats all class isnt it?:tape:

You have no case which is why you went into your anti martina rant. Face it, martina no matter her personality has achieved more in her career than graf. Martina layed it all out in singles, doubles, and mixed doubles. She didnt "save" herself for singles like some players do.

Mr_Molik
Aug 19th, 2004, 04:27 AM
And thats all you did is rant. I'm not going into all the she said this she said that because its irrelevant. The results on the court speak for themselves and by any defintion Martina has achieved MORE than Graf on the court. Period.

The only distinction steffi has over martina is in more single slam titles and steffi doesnt even have the most! Funny how you start to make distinctions like 4 of each slam, yeah well great, court still has more even if she doesnt have four of each. Maybe steffi can be the best ever of four of each slam. that works.

I will say that Miss "gracious" Graf told Zina G after losing to her in the wimbledon semi that it didnt matter because she wouldnt beat martina in the final. Oh yeah thats all class isnt it?:tape:

You have no case which is why you went into your anti martina rant. Face it, martina no matter her personality has achieved more in her career than graf. Martina layed it all out in singles, doubles, and mixed doubles. She didnt "save" herself for singles like some players do.
omg just have a :bigcry: steffi is better

Philbo
Aug 19th, 2004, 04:36 AM
So, she doesn't have the most slams. Margaret Court does. But, who (Court or Graf) won each slam at least 4 times?

Which of the two played and triumphed against three generations of tennis' best - Evert/Navratilova, Seles, Hingis/Davenport and Williams/Williams? (And before you claim that Martina in her comeback is proving she can compete against the current generation of players, let me remind you of one Gisela Dulko. You do remember her, don't you? She's not exactly Venus, Serena, Davenport, et. al, is she? So, let's get the score right. In her comeback, Martina can hardly beat Dulko. In her last year on the tour, Graf had victories against Hingis, Davenport, Venus, and Serena.)

And, now that you find some truth in awarding the greatest ever title on the basis of career accomplishments and performance, let's not forget that Martina's career isn't all wine and roses, more like Cheese-Wiz and crackers. Before Martina decided to get into shape she too had a Seles-like infatuation with butter. On the contrary, Graf appeared on day one as a fit athlete, young, maybe a bit wirey, but nevertheless fit. She only became fitter and fitter after that.

Above all, let's not forget that as a champion Martina leaves a lot to be desired. After all, it was Martina who added emphasis to Tauziat's complaints that Monica moaned too loud at Wimbledon. What a sore loser!

It was also Martina who in her role as HBO commentator remarked that Graf made up excuses just in case she lost. Graf won that year ('96) and put Martina on notice that remarks like that were unfair. Guess if all of your accomplishments on the court still don't earn you the title of greatest ever, you can always do what Martina N. did. Use your role as a commentator to tarnish the reputation of the woman who clearly was on the verge of being the greatest ever. What else could explain Martina calling Steffi a "groupie" a few years later because she was accompanying her boyfriend Agassi from tournament to tournament. For someone who represents herself as being enlightened, this is one of the most paternalistic things you could imagine ever saying about another woman. (Advice to you, Martina. Even because you got taken to the cleaners by one of your lovers, it doesn't mean that others can't genuinely fall in love, specifically women with men.)

That's not the only time Martina has come out on the wrong side. Take her reponse to the "plays like a man" scandal. Where was the strident lesbian when her own namesake Martina Hingis made homophobic remarks about Mauresmo? Did she come to Mauresmo's defense? No, she actually tried to explain away what Hingis said. Now, is it any wonder Mauresmo doesn't like Martina N? I think her word for her is "rigid." In French, the word "rigid" is quite a put down.

And, finally, we have this example of Martina behaving badly. After her first round loss at the French Open this year, she brags at the news conference that she would have had no problem beating Dulko if the surface was grass. A true champion would have just shut up after acknowledging how well Dulko played. Not Martina. Flashforward a month or so. Wimbledon. Dulko approaches the net after just beating Martina on grass. She extends her hand and kisses Martina on both cheeks. Now that is class. Martina, take a lesson.

While she is at it, she might also take a lesson from Chris and Steffi. Nothing that they have done since retiring has served to diminish their reputation as tennis players. The more Martina plays, the more she opens her mouth (particularly about the Williams' sisters), the more Martina does to diminish her claim to be the greatest ever. And, she already needed all the help she could get with that claim because lest one forget the last time the AP polled a cadre of tennis greats on the question Steffi won the poll and no less than Wendy Turnbull and Virginia Wade voted against Martina and for Steffi. On that note, let's not forget that while Martina found a convenient reason not to attend the 50th Anniversary of the Tennis Hall of Fame no one less than Margaret Court was there. She even attended Steffi's induction ceremony the next day. If actions speak louder than words, I wonder who Margaret Court thinks was greater, Steffi or Martina.

Sorry for the rant. Just wanted to put things in perspective.
Oh jeez, where do I even begin to pick apart this UTTER load of crap!

1) Which of the two played and triumphed against three generations of tennis' best - Evert/Navratilova, Seles, Hingis/Davenport and Williams/Williams?

Martina played and beat Margaret Court, Billie Jean King towards the end of their careers, played against her own generation of Mandlikova, Evert, Goolagong etc then hung around to beat Steffi and Monica and Arantxa - thats 3 generations, so your first point is utter crap...

2) Before Martina decided to get into shape she too had a Seles-like infatuation with butter. On the contrary, Graf appeared on day one as a fit athlete, young, maybe a bit wirey, but nevertheless fit. She only became fitter and fitter after that.

So what? Did Graf come from a communisit country where a piece of meat was a delicacy? As Martina has said, she went from having a huge potatoe and tiny pice of meat for a meal to usa where it was huge steak with some vegies on the side - yes she got carried away with all the new freedoms but how does that make her reign as # 1 any less?

Graf was dominated by her father whereas Martina had NO guidance and NO CONTACT with her parent for 5 years from the age of 18...who had it easier?? Steffi Graf. That point is just hateful crap.

3) "She only became fitter and fitter after that"

Funny you say that when Ive had 5 years of debating with Graf fans who LOVE to complain about all her injureis as she got older - her body wastnt up to it...I dont think Graf at 28 was fitter than Graf at 18 - the exact opposite...more bullshit..

4) "Above all, let's not forget that as a champion Martina leaves a lot to be desired. After all, it was Martina who added emphasis to Tauziat's complaints that Monica moaned too loud at Wimbledon. What a sore loser!"

This was a moment where Martina did let the heat of battle get to her - Monica has since told of Martina coming up to her STRAIGHT AFTER THE MATCH AND APOLOGISING SAYING SHE LOST IT DURING THE HEAT OF BATTLE!

Steffi herself when she retired talked about how classy Martina was - Steffi as a 13 year old on her first trip to Australia hurt her finger in the opening round...She was quite upset and Martina took her aside and gave her a note saying that 'one day you will be a champion, you have plentyy more opportunities' - and Graf has publicly commented how much that meant to her - that act of sportsmanship...

Have you seen the handshake Graf gave Martina after losing the 86 US Open semi - theres an example of low class!

So more bullshit from you...

5) "no one less than Margaret Court was there. She even attended Steffi's induction ceremony the next day. If actions speak louder than words, I wonder who Margaret Court thinks was greater, Steffi or Martina"

Do you live on this planet you fool? Margaret -christian homophobic bitch looney- Court is a well known hater of Martian ebcause of the fact she is gay - she has publicly stated that Martina is a bad role model because of her lesbianism - she is a reverent thse days who enjoys telling others how to live their life - her showing up for that is a simple case of homohpbia....you are just a fucking idiot...

Plus Martina never said she would kick Gisela's ass on grass - she said it would be a different score, which it was - a tough 3 setter, not a hiding like on clay - and Martina spoke extremely graciously about Gisela saying she ahd potential to be top 30 by the end of the year...hardly the words of a sore loser you stupid asswipe...

Bam, case closed, any more shit you wanna spew forth for me to tackle?/ this is too fucken easy...

irma
Aug 19th, 2004, 05:43 AM
Steffilover is in fact a perfect example of the arrogance and complete and utter insecurity Graf fans live in...I call it their 'la la land of fantasy and make beleive"...

LOL@people using Wimbledon 88 as the 'definitive' matchup between the two...whoever says that shows their age...the fact was in that match that Martina had a leg injury (cant remember the exact injury but agassi suffered the same thing about 3 years ago and pulled out of wimbledon) - it was a thigh injury, the first set Martina won, then there was a rain delay of about 25 minutes, just long enough for Martina to cool down and for the tightness and pain to set in - if anyone actually watched the match you can totally see she wasnt moving anywhere near her best...

Graf deserved the win that day...but to use that match as a 'definitive' matchup is just laughable...

Why does 87 not count? Graf was # 1 that year and only lost 2 matches all year - to Martina in the wimbledon and us finals - funny how Graf fans ignore that year (even though its the closest year where both were at their peak) and then want to use 88 as the year where both were closest to tehir prime...

Anyway Martina did better than I thought she would in the poll..Its comforting to know that even though Graf fans try and try and try in vain to rewrite history and live in denial re the stabbings effect - good to know theres a large % of people out there who wont forget..."I lost to the better player on the day and that's how it should be"

:wavey:

and facts are

what people suddenly claimed only in 89 that steffi didn't really win because nav was injured (fact) (and don't come with nav wanted not to take away from steffi because then she would really weak to start a year later. I doubt nav would be that low and the quote below this message says otherwise too)
raindelay was at 3:1 in the the third set ( tapes don't lie also if a raindelay had changed the match then definitely it had been in some article. and yeah I asked others to watch the tape too),

one match isn't a definite prove since they played 18 times not just one
so that's a fact too so I am just talking about this match because I am tired of people trying to take credit away for really every match steffi played :rolleyes:

Let's write the quote again

"I lost to the better player on the day and that's the way it should be"

again that quote already says enough! Nav though she lost in fair circumstances but to a player who just played in incredible that day as she also did 12 months later

another quote

"she is the only reason why I don't have a 9th wimbledon title yet"

Nav at the end of 89

That also shows that Nav still believed in her wimbledon 88 comments and as said she is full of respect for Steffi the tennisplayer overall so is Steffi of Nav the tennisplayer too. Steffi said from the players she played Nav was the best (which pissed of people again too but that's a different story :lol: )

See I can make excuses for the us open 91 (that was already known before the tournament not in 92) and Tokio 93 by example (one right before and one right after. not in 94 either) but obvious Steffi was out there and lost to the better players on the day as she did 9 times. same for Steffi when she won 9 times. You can also find an excuse when you want for every match
as kim says: "every player has pains somewhere". sport is not a healthy thing. I guess :o

Philbo
Aug 19th, 2004, 05:58 AM
Irma - you are quite possible the only die hard Steffi fan that is reasonable and likeable... :)

steffilover
Aug 19th, 2004, 09:22 AM
i was just speaking the truth. Steffilover is a prick. I only speak the truth. :)
U do seem to enjoy bandying words like "prick", "asshole" and "fu*k" around, and denigrating gays. Is there something ud like to get off ur chest, little man?:lol:

DA FOREHAND
Aug 19th, 2004, 05:07 PM
I dont care what this poll says: martina navritilova is THE greatest tennis player ever. She has done more as a tennis player than any other woman including miss graf.

I mean graf doesnt even have the most slams so how in the world could she be the greatest? Court has more singles slams than steffi. So if your going to focus on a players entire career instead of selectively focusing on only one aspect of tennis then its beyond clear that Nav is the winner.


This is a fantasy singles tournament... Doubles has no relevance

The people have spoken...

Kart
Aug 19th, 2004, 05:53 PM
selking, i dont know why u have to write a private message to me to say "fu*k u asshole"?:confused:
is that what ud like to do to me, or is it some neanderthal threat?:lol:
everyone here knows about u and ur potty mouth...no need to hide it!!!:rolleyes:
Speaking of private messages, thank you for that lovely negative rep :yawn:.

If I believed in giving out childish petty messages in secret maybe I'd return the favour but I'm afraid that's not happening today.

Incidentally, rather than suggest I need to work on my sarcasm, perhaps you'd better work on your reading comprehension first. Maybe then you'd be able to spot it correctly.

Let me know when you've worked through your issues and learned some manners ... or don't :).

stevenPRIDE
Aug 19th, 2004, 07:45 PM
steffyilove, why didnt you wait till i was on hear to attack me so vehemently?

Personally i dont care for you much, i deplore arrogance and cockyness, two qualities you have in abundance.

However like i said i POSITIVE reped you to show that im not like you, im not like 75% of posters here, im a non judgemental guy, i love people and i state my opinion as unbiased as possible.

I apologised if you felt i was too harsh on Steffy, not giving her the due (you think she deserves). She is not (in my opnion) the top player in history, however shes certainly one of them.

As for my "spelling mistakes" im not too concerned about them, and neither should you be. Try to focus on the topic at hand, and as a future refrence, try not to get personal, its bad for your health.

Have a nice day.

Steve.

stenen
Aug 20th, 2004, 11:04 AM
I am sorry but Tennis is more than singles. Its also doubles and mixed doubles and someone like martina who not only accomplished almost as much as graf in the slam singles completely dusted her when it came to showing up for the doubles and mixed doubles.

Navritilova is THE all around greatest tennis player. Sorry that so many can't accept the truth.

I totally agree.
Ok one can argue if Steffi is the greatest female singles player. I personally have some reservations about that since she won 7 of her slams when Monica was away from the tour. Also she was able to keep her nr 1 position much easily since her greatest rival at the time was gone. But if it makes a Steffi fan happy I can say she was the best female SINGLES player since one can never know what Monica could have accomplished without the stabbing.
However there's more to tennis than single; doubles and mixed doubles. That someone can even be considered as a best player ever must have several major accomplishments in all of these; singles, doubles and mixed. Martina Navratilova is totally in her own class. And the fact she took two of latest Grand Slams at the age of 46 makes Steffi look rather pale next to Martina N.


p.s I'm not a Martina fan. I don't have to be her records speak for themselves.

alfajeffster
Aug 20th, 2004, 11:42 AM
I totally agree.
Ok one can argue if Steffi is the greatest female singles player. I personally have some reservations about that since she won 7 of her slams when Monica was away from the tour. Also she was able to keep her nr 1 position much easily since her greatest rival at the time was gone. But if it makes a Steffi fan happy I can say she was the best female SINGLES player since one can never know what Monica could have accomplished without the stabbing.
However there's more to tennis than single; doubles and mixed doubles. That someone can even be considered as a best player ever must have several major accomplishments in all of these; singles, doubles and mixed. Martina Navratilova is totally in her own class. And the fact she took two of latest Grand Slams at the age of 46 makes Steffi look rather pale next to Martina N.


p.s I'm not a Martina fan. I don't have to be her records speak for themselves.
Have you ever heard of Margaret Smith Court?

stenen
Aug 20th, 2004, 01:24 PM
Have you ever heard of Margaret Smith Court?

Oh yes I have but I still say that Martina N. is the best female player ever. You see tennis is not all about Slams either, Martina has twice as many titles than Margaret. Margaret 159 titles, Martina 340 titles.
If I'd had to choose between the best tennis player - male or female - it would be a close match between Martina N. and Rod Laver. But Martina has more titles than Rod so I'd say Martina is the greatest.

bandabou
Aug 20th, 2004, 02:47 PM
To my knowledge Margareth beats Martina N and Steffi too in major titles, major doubles titles, major mixed titles,....so I don´t know how one can say that Martina was greater than Margaret

morbidangle
Aug 20th, 2004, 02:57 PM
If u consider both singles and doubles, then Margaret wins easily. U see there was tennis before The Open Era, and Court has more majors (singles and doubles) than Martina N. More singles titles (including the ones she won before 1968). So basically its Margaret Court who comes out on top, if you want to consider both singles and doubles. Martina has the most titles in the Open era.
IMO Steffi is the best of all times, coz If I had to pick a career for myself, I'd pick 22 majors with atleast 4 titles on 4 different surfaces over a great singles and doubles career.

bandabou
Aug 20th, 2004, 03:07 PM
All nice and easy....but it´s a bit unfair to the others, because in the past there was no rebound ace and not much hardcourts either...so Steffi was the first great to get the chance to do it.

stenen
Aug 20th, 2004, 03:24 PM
To my knowledge Margareth beats Martina N and Steffi too in major titles, major doubles titles, major mixed titles,....so I don´t know how one can say that Martina was greater than Margaret

Yes yes that's major titles. But I was talking about the number of all the titles won not just the Slams :rolleyes:

bandabou
Aug 20th, 2004, 03:29 PM
Yes yes that's major titles. But I was talking about the number of all the titles won not just the Slams :rolleyes:

But in singles, Margaret is still the record-holder for most titles in singles. What r u talking about?! Only in doubles is Martina the career leader.....

alfajeffster
Aug 20th, 2004, 03:34 PM
Oh yes I have but I still say that Martina N. is the best female player ever. You see tennis is not all about Slams either, Martina has twice as many titles than Margaret. Margaret 159 titles, Martina 340 titles.
If I'd had to choose between the best tennis player - male or female - it would be a close match between Martina N. and Rod Laver. But Martina has more titles than Rod so I'd say Martina is the greatest.
Typical misconception about history. Actually, Margaret Court has over 187 singles titles, and last count, I believe Martina was still at 168, which means Margaret is nearly 20 ahead in the singles titles count. We haven't even begun to count doubles and mixed doubles titles for Margaret Court, but I'd bet she's ahead in that category too. You see, the stats you are used to are from the "open era" and don't count anything prior to 1968. I was born in 1962, and while I don't remember much from the 60s except for a brief second or two when Janis Joplin was on a Dick Cavitt show and my dad yelled "turn that garbage off!", I do know and respect the fact that tennis was played before this thing called "open era" was aborted- er, I mean born. Rod Laver won many titles before 1968. So did Billie Jean King, Maria Bueno, and a whole host of players who played the game very well indeed.

I wonder what Rod Laver's answer would be to that question you asked of yourself- best tennis player ever. I know from meeting him personally and talking to him, his idol was always Lew Hoad. I think there are many Australians who feel the same way- when Lew Hoad was on, he was the best player ever. So you see, it's all impossible to guage. Martina Navratilova certainly is one of the best ever. There is no single one person who is the best ever- never will be as long as the ball is still in play...

stenen
Aug 20th, 2004, 03:55 PM
You see, the stats you are used to are from the "open era" and don't count anything prior to 1968.
There is no single one person who is the best ever- never will be as long as the ball is still in play...

I agree with you last sentence about the ball is still in play.
The stats that I use are indeed from the Open Era and since those are the official stats used by WTA and ATP + in many other instances so they're actually are the ones that weight more when defining the best player ever.
And indeed Martina has more slams in the Open Era.
Margaret Court's Slams in the Open Era, 23; 11 in singles, 7 doubles and 5 mixed.
Martina's Slams, 38; 16 singles, 13 doubles and 9 mixed.

!!!--Duiz™--!!!
Aug 20th, 2004, 03:56 PM
Steffi deserves it!

Mr_Molik
Aug 20th, 2004, 04:01 PM
Margaret Court is the best all round tennis player of all time :worship:
Steffi Graf is the best singles tennis player of all time :worship:
End of story

stenen
Aug 20th, 2004, 04:09 PM
But in singles, Margaret is still the record-holder for most titles in singles. What r u talking about?! Only in doubles is Martina the career leader.....

I know Margaret is a record-holder for most singles titles, total 24 but 13 of them are from the time before the Open Era.

samn
Aug 20th, 2004, 04:13 PM
I know Margaret is a record-holder for most singles titles, total 24 but 13 of them are from the time before the Open Era.

So what? It doesn't make much sense to distinguish between the amateur and Open eras for women because most (if not all) of the top women players at the time were amateurs who were allowed to play and did play the Grand Slam events. It wasn't anything like the best male players turning professional and missing a shot at Grand Slam greatness.

bandabou
Aug 20th, 2004, 04:15 PM
I agree with you last sentence about the ball is still in play.
The stats that I use are indeed from the Open Era and since those are the official stats used by WTA and ATP + in many other instances so they're actually are the ones that weight more when defining the best player ever.
And indeed Martina has more slams in the Open Era.
Margaret Court's Slams in the Open Era, 23; 11 in singles, 7 doubles and 5 mixed.
Martina's Slams, 38; 16 singles, 13 doubles and 9 mixed.


But the stats pre open era count too and there Margaret is winning.

alfajeffster
Aug 20th, 2004, 04:15 PM
The stats that I use are indeed from the Open Era and since those are the official stats used by WTA and ATP + in many other instances so they're actually are the ones that weight more when defining the best player ever
You shouldn't believe everything you read or hear from the WTA and ATP and especially what comes out of the mouthes of TV tennis commentators- they are frequently blatantly wrong, and it's worth it to do a little research and find out for yourself. The information is out there- check out the Blast From the Past thread section of this site some time. It's full of Margaret Court, Martina Navratilova and many other player stats that are well-researched, discussed, and more accurate than anything the WTA or ATP has going.

With regard to using their stats in trying to define the "best ever"- I would only say that I am glad Major League Baseball and any number of other sports on this planet don't confine statistics to a small 36-year window of play. There is so much more than that- the game is well over 120 years old in many places and tournaments on this planet- how about we take in all that history and give all those great players a fair consideration? Whatayasay?

stenen
Aug 20th, 2004, 04:51 PM
You shouldn't believe everything you read or hear from the WTA and ATP and especially what comes out of the mouthes of TV tennis commentators- they are frequently blatantly wrong, and it's worth it to do a little research and find out for yourself. how about we take in all that history and give all those great players a fair consideration? Whatayasay?

I do a lot of research from elsewhere too. Margaret was a great player no doubt about that but the only female (and I think even male) player who was nominated for the best athlete of the millenium was Martina.
She also is the only player in tennis history to win Grand Slam events in four decades.
All things considered, Martina for me is the best player ever. Then if you have a dífferent point of you, fine, we all have our preferences. I'll rest my case.

Geisha
Aug 20th, 2004, 05:50 PM
Navratilova, Graf, Navratilova, Graf! Oh GEEZE!!! Aaaah!!!...

I gotta go with Navvy because she's got the more singles and doubles titles. She's a more complete player. Graf is one of my faves and I feel bad to let her down, though.

Calimero377
Aug 20th, 2004, 05:57 PM
I totally agree.
Ok one can argue if Steffi is the greatest female singles player. I personally have some reservations about that since she won 7 of her slams when Monica was away from the tour. Also she was able to keep her nr 1 position much easily since her greatest rival at the time was gone. But if it makes a Steffi fan happy I can say she was the best female SINGLES player since one can never know what Monica could have accomplished without the stabbing.
However there's more to tennis than single; doubles and mixed doubles. That someone can even be considered as a best player ever must have several major accomplishments in all of these; singles, doubles and mixed. Martina Navratilova is totally in her own class. And the fact she took two of latest Grand Slams at the age of 46 makes Steffi look rather pale next to Martina N.


p.s I'm not a Martina fan. I don't have to be her records speak for themselves.


Navi at 46 still wins doubles & mixed. So much about those competitions.

BTW, Graf won 6 (not 7) slams when Monica was sidelined because of stabbing & mental problems thereafter, 27 % of her 22 slams.
Seles won 2 of her 9 slams when Graf was injured (22 %).

stenen
Aug 20th, 2004, 06:14 PM
[QUOTE=Calimero377]

BTW, Graf won 6 (not 7) slams QUOTE]

Yes you're right, sorry.
However when Steffi won the US Open 1995 Monica had just returned to the tour two weeks earlier. So I personally include even this win as a benefit from Monica's stabbing.

stenen
Aug 20th, 2004, 06:22 PM
BTW, Graf won 6 (not 7) slams when Monica was sidelined because of stabbing & mental problems thereafter, 27 % of her 22 slams.
Seles won 2 of her 9 slams when Graf was injured (22 %).

In a reference to Seles winning 2 of her 9 slams when Graf was injured:
There is a big difference being away from the tour for few months and over two years. Please!!!

Calimero377
Aug 20th, 2004, 06:24 PM
Navratilova, Graf, Navratilova, Graf! Oh GEEZE!!! Aaaah!!!...

I gotta go with Navvy because she's got the more singles and doubles titles. She's a more complete player. Graf is one of my faves and I feel bad to let her down, though.


Playing doubles is a social event, not sport.

More complete?
If Navi had won each slam at least 4 times you'd have a point.
Or at least both Wimbledon AND FO 6 times or more ....

Calimero377
Aug 20th, 2004, 06:30 PM
[QUOTE=Calimero377]

BTW, Graf won 6 (not 7) slams QUOTE]

Yes you're right, sorry.
However when Steffi won the US Open 1995 Monica had just returned to the tour two weeks earlier. So I personally include even this win as a benefit from Monica's stabbing.


Seles had ripped through the field at Canadian Open and US Open.
Meanwhile Graf's daddy had been thrown into prison 3 weeks earlier. Graf was injured, even x-rayed a day before final.
Monica played in front of her home crowd, everybody cheered her and wanted her to win.

Steffi's USO win 95 was her greatest personal accomplishment ever. By far.

:worship:

Calimero377
Aug 20th, 2004, 06:33 PM
In a reference to Seles winning 2 of her 9 slams when Graf was injured:
There is a big difference being away from the tour for few months and over two years. Please!!!


My point was that the winner had not to cope with her most dangerous opponent in those slams, whether she was Steffi or Monica. Cause of opponent's absence is irrelevant in this context.

buscemi
Aug 20th, 2004, 06:35 PM
Seles had ripped through the field at Canadian Open and US Open.
Meanwhile Graf's daddy had been thrown into prison 3 weeks earlier. Graf was injured, even x-rayed a day before final.
Monica played in front of her home crowd, everybody cheered her and wanted her to win.

Steffi's USO win 95 was her greatest personal accomplishment ever. By far.

:worship:

Wow. So, slipping by Seles in her 2nd tournament back after a 2.5 year layoff after being stabbed was her biggest accomplishment. I can see that.

Calimero377
Aug 20th, 2004, 07:05 PM
Wow. So, slipping by Seles in her 2nd tournament back after a 2.5 year layoff after being stabbed was her biggest accomplishment. I can see that.


Yes, that was her biggest accomplishment.
No, you can't see that ....

Cybelle Darkholme
Aug 20th, 2004, 08:04 PM
omg just have a :bigcry: steffi is better
Maybe you should be having that cry. Face it martina is better. Be happy Graf and her rabid fans are better than monica

buscemi
Aug 20th, 2004, 08:09 PM
Yes, that was her biggest accomplishment.
No, you can't see that ....

No, I actually wasn't being sarcastic. When Graf beat Seles in '95, it was likely Graf's best win ever on a democratic surface over Seles when she was closest to being 100%.

tennislover
Aug 20th, 2004, 08:20 PM
Quote from Cybelle:
********
dont care what this poll says: martina navritilova is THE greatest tennis player ever. She has done more as a tennis player than any other woman including miss graf.

I mean graf doesnt even have the most slams so how in the world could she be the greatest? Court has more singles slams than steffi. So if your going to focus on a players entire career instead of selectively focusing on only one aspect of tennis then its beyond clear that Nav is the winner.
********



Excellent point, Cybelle!!! :hatoff:
Moreover, Graf fans tend to forget this fact:
Martina won 167 singles tournaments.....how many singles tournaments did Graf win?

Anyway I think it's an endless debate......
For us Martina will be forever our Queen of tennis.....
For Graf fans Graf will be forever their Queen......
No communication is possible.....so each one has their own Queen....
Gio