PDA

View Full Version : #1 Tournament: Graf vs. Seles


Pages : [1] 2

FaceyFacem
Aug 16th, 2004, 09:44 PM
Ok, here is the 2nd Semi, the differential for the 1st semi made it obvious Nav will win, plus, i want this one started so i'll be around when it finishes. Ok, so we're on to the classic matchup of Monica and Steffi. Remember, we're trying to use the most critical match they played in their H2H to gauge, or we can also use general H2H, or we can use some other ideas, but who would win this matchup is the critical point. Here is the progression of the draw:
Graf def. BYE
Davenport def. Austin
Seles def. Clijsters
Hingis def. V. Williams
Evert def. BYE
S. Williams def. Sanchez-Vicario
Henin-Hardenne def. Capriati
Navratilova def. BYE
leading to:
Graf def. Davenport
Seles def. Hingis
Evert def. S. Williams
Navratilova def. Henin-Hardenne
to now:
Graf vs. Seles
Navratilova def. Evert

Ok, Steffi leads H2H 10-5. Go on that. Enjoy!

!!!--Duiz™--!!!
Aug 16th, 2004, 09:47 PM
I don't get this but anyways... Steffi would be the winner I think...

FaceyFacem
Aug 16th, 2004, 09:48 PM
this one is SO hard, if is stick to my guns, i have to pick Monica, because i need to select the 92 French as the critical matchup (since people voted it greates match of all time), but i think that i need to refute the "if monica got stabbed argument" by saying, steffi always figured out opponents after a loss or two, she never got steamrolled by ANYONE consistently, and i think that it could be true if Seles wasn't stabbed, and i hate taking away steffi's greatness because of it, however, i also believe in consistency in my selection process, and i also believe that monica of 92 is so incredible i can select her with no (or at least few) regrets, i think i'm going monica here in a CLASSIC. if i go the surface by surface way: steffi=grass, monica=clay, hard=monica, steffi=indoor, so i can't really pick there...i'm gonna stick monica, very very tough

!!!--Duiz™--!!!
Aug 16th, 2004, 09:49 PM
Graf has been the greatest though...

bandabou
Aug 16th, 2004, 09:51 PM
Canīt argue with the numbers....Steffi.

FaceyFacem
Aug 16th, 2004, 09:51 PM
i agree duiz, steffi probably has the best career overall, but this is about the matchup, and also, although i never liked monica, in fact i never liked serena or venus either, but i still understand their greatness and am able to select a person solely on matchup disregarding personal opinion as much as possible

!!!--Duiz™--!!!
Aug 16th, 2004, 09:52 PM
i agree duiz, steffi probably has the best career overall, but this is about the matchup, and also, although i never liked monica, in fact i never liked serena or venus either, but i still understand their greatness and am able to select a person solely on matchup disregarding personal opinion as much as possible

What is this for anyways? :rolleyes:

buscemi
Aug 16th, 2004, 09:59 PM
-Critical match is AO '93. Seles wins in 3 semi-tough sets. (Also consider '91 AO, which Seles wins and Graf loses in QF).

-Equally critical -- Seles wins U.S. Open in '91-'92 and Virginia Slims from '90-'92 while Graf loses earlier.

-Thus, on the 2 most democratic surfaces, Seles dominates the major events in her prime while Graf does virtually nothing while in her prime.

-Throw out Wimbledon b/c Graf was clearly better on grass.

-Throw out the French b/c Monica was clearly better on clay.

!!!--Duiz™--!!!
Aug 16th, 2004, 10:03 PM
Gaf is jsut unbeatable!

buscemi
Aug 16th, 2004, 10:03 PM
Also, for those picking Graf, what would you consider the critical match-up? And I don't see how either Wimbledon match could qualify.

YourBoyDan
Aug 16th, 2004, 10:06 PM
come on STEFFI fans time to vote. By the way Monica did not exactly have Steffi's# from 90-92. Their head to head was even during that time period. Steffi by far is the greater player, champion and athlete.

!!!--Duiz™--!!!
Aug 16th, 2004, 10:06 PM
she is the best!

buscemi
Aug 16th, 2004, 10:07 PM
YourBoyDan, their head-to-head was even only b/c Graf kept losing before Seles could beat her (see U.S. Open '91-'92 and Virginia Slims '90-'93).

And what's the critical metch-up?

Monseles9
Aug 16th, 2004, 10:11 PM
Monica all the way.

selking
Aug 16th, 2004, 10:12 PM
No contest. Monica wins. She is better then steffi. always was and always will be.

faboozadoo15
Aug 16th, 2004, 10:13 PM
if this is "who had the better career?" then steffi, but if this is about matchup, then i would put my money on seles. monica ran the tables during the middle of steffi's career, and that's for good reason. she is a better tennis player.

PointBlank
Aug 16th, 2004, 10:17 PM
Monica would have most of the slams Steffi won if not for the "incident"

Dont get me wrong Steffi is a GREAT tennis player..I just think Monica would ahve had those if not for waht happened

Smackie
Aug 16th, 2004, 10:24 PM
There may not be much difference in dominance and H2H matches and Monica COULD probably be better players had she not been stabbed (for some she was better player anyway), here comes the BUT:

Monica has never won Wimbledon, only once in the final. It's not neccesary that Wimbledon is more superior but if I have to pick the GREATEST, she has to have shown people she could beat anyone on any surface. Just for this point could make Graf that much better.

SzavayFi
Aug 16th, 2004, 10:27 PM
How is Steffi loseing, oh now this is comical!

Hant Hant
Aug 16th, 2004, 10:27 PM
sorry, but if Steffi was stabbed just like Monica did, Steffi would have done way worse. Monica owned Steffi 8-2 before her stabbing and Monica is the better player. Steffi's 22 grand slam numbers are deceptive. There should be a big asterisk next to the last 20 of them stating: The Seles Issue.

selking
Aug 16th, 2004, 10:29 PM
How is Steffi loseing, oh now this is comical!

she is losing because first of monica is the better player and second monica has more fans

Derek.
Aug 16th, 2004, 10:32 PM
It would be an interesting match. :)

buscemi
Aug 16th, 2004, 10:33 PM
Just a note for you Graf fans who note that Seles was only 4-3 against Graf from 1990-1993 and seem to ignore that Seles won several GSs and Virginia Slims Champinships while Graf lost early, here are some interesting #s:

1990-1993:

Seles vs. Sabatini: 2-2 at regular events, 6-0 at GSs, Virginia Slims
Seles vs. Navratilova: 6-5 at regular events, 4-0 at GSs, Virginia Slims

So, Seles often played the top players in those years pretty evenly at regular events and then crushed them at GSs and Virginia Slims. And she likely would have done the same against Graf if she didn't keep losing...to the likes of Sabatini and Navratilova.

!!!--Duiz™--!!!
Aug 16th, 2004, 10:34 PM
Steffi seems to be the clear winner...

buscemi
Aug 16th, 2004, 10:34 PM
Duiz, what's the critical match?

faboozadoo15
Aug 16th, 2004, 10:36 PM
How is Steffi loseing, oh now this is comical!
you know what else can be quite comical? unabashed inability to spell. :help:

:haha:

faboozadoo15
Aug 16th, 2004, 10:42 PM
she is losing because first of monica is the better player and second monica has more fans
graf has a lot of fans on here too... and additionally, graf may catch up. this is so early on in the poll. but, if it all works out, she won't.

bandabou
Aug 16th, 2004, 10:43 PM
Wow.....never saw this one coming!! :eek:

Bamafan717
Aug 16th, 2004, 10:49 PM
Monica fans can't accept what really happened. Here is the problem Monica fans:

You can't say "Well, Monica would've won that if she wasn't stabbed" you just can't!
I know it is unfortunate what happened, but you have to go by who had the better career. Monica will never catch up because she is retired.

SzavayFi
Aug 16th, 2004, 10:51 PM
you know what else can be quite comical? unabashed inability to spell. :help:

:haha:
yea i know i am pretty dumb, :lol: :smash:

bw2082
Aug 16th, 2004, 10:53 PM
Steffi :worship:

selking
Aug 16th, 2004, 10:54 PM
Monica fans can't accept what really happened. Here is the problem Monica fans:

You can't say "Well, Monica would've won that if she wasn't stabbed" you just can't!
I know it is unfortunate what happened, but you have to go by who had the better career. Monica will never catch up because she is retired.

and he is a kid that claimed to be a monica fan and now he is seperating himself from us. He came onto a monica message and made topics on stupid shit. He never was a fan and he likes to pretend that he know a thing about tennis when the truth is that he doesn't

buscemi
Aug 16th, 2004, 10:54 PM
mthammer, that's fine, but that's not what this poll is about (who had the better career). The question is -- who would have won a head-to-head match-up between the 2 in their primes based on an actual 'critical' match between the 2. I would say anything after the stabbing wasn't peak Seles. Neither was anything before 1990. That leaves us with 1990-1993. Seles was clearly better on clay. Graf was clearly better on grass. That leaves us with slow and fast hard courts. They only played on these once during these years in a Grand Slam, at the '93 Australian Open, with Seles winning in 3.

Sally Struthers
Aug 16th, 2004, 10:56 PM
As my friend Helen Lawson would say, Monica leading Steffi in this poll is like Mira Sorvino winning more Oscars than Katherine Hepburn.

Bamafan717
Aug 16th, 2004, 11:03 PM
Steffi was great on every surface. I think you are trying to hide the fact that Steffi could beat Monica on any surface. I don't think you can count one match out of the many ones that they played. It isn't fair how you have to look at all of Steffi's years(great and "good") and only have to look at three of Monica's years.
This poll is useless if you decide everything on one match. Why would they call it a #1 tournament???

Selking needs to shut the fuck up because he says the same bullshit over and over. I tried to give Monica a chance but the monica-seles.com message boards are very unwelcome to new members. But I don't really care because they are a bunch of whiny bitches anyways.

!!!--Duiz™--!!!
Aug 16th, 2004, 11:04 PM
Yes!!!

selking
Aug 16th, 2004, 11:06 PM
Selking needs to shut the fuck up because he says the same bullshit over and over. I tried to give Monica a chance but the monica-seles.com message boards are very unwelcome to new members. But I don't really care because they are a bunch of whiny bitches anyways.

god i wish you went to my high school wait your not in high school yet are you. Well i wish you were so i could kick your ass in tennis and with my fists

Bamafan717
Aug 16th, 2004, 11:10 PM
god i wish you went to my high school wait your not in high school yet are you. Well i wish you were so i could kick your ass in tennis and with my fists

I got him mad on purpose at monica-seles too. i love a good laugh :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

selking
Aug 16th, 2004, 11:14 PM
yea... you got me banned too. But im back on that board so its all good.

Bamafan717
Aug 16th, 2004, 11:17 PM
You got yourself banned. I am too
does this sound familiar:
Hello my American name is Michelle. My brother is Rick and he played pro. I am not the real michaella


So funny when you fool someone :lol:

selking
Aug 16th, 2004, 11:19 PM
Are you that pathetic?

Bamafan717
Aug 16th, 2004, 11:20 PM
I think Monica fans are the most pathetic. Since you are 16 do you even play Juniors? Or do you get beaten every time :lol:

selking
Aug 16th, 2004, 11:22 PM
no actually i just won a tourny.

Bamafan717
Aug 16th, 2004, 11:24 PM
oh really so if I went to ITFJuniors I would see you on there and really see if you won

selking
Aug 16th, 2004, 11:24 PM
no tennisinformation

selking
Aug 16th, 2004, 11:31 PM
ok besides that i really dont know how monica just went from leading comfortably to being down. Must be some double voting by people with more then one handle

Geisha
Aug 16th, 2004, 11:44 PM
Monica fans can't accept what really happened. Here is the problem Monica fans:

You can't say "Well, Monica would've won that if she wasn't stabbed" you just can't!
I know it is unfortunate what happened, but you have to go by who had the better career. Monica will never catch up because she is retired.

One, she's not retired.

Two, I'm looking at their results from the early 1990s, because that is when both of them played their best. Graf dominated until Monica came, and when she did, Monica was unstopable. That is shown by 9 Grand Slam titles.

Stefwhit
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:08 AM
Ok.. without writing a thesis on the subject, I'll keep it brief. In terms of match-ups there was never one point in their careers where Monica had the overall edge in H2H's with Steffi.

Graf finished 1991 ranked second behind Seles, despite the fact that Graf beat Seles in their only two head-to-head matches in 1991. Graf’s 6-2, 6-1 win over the top-ranked Seles in the 1992 Wimbledon final was the most one-sided defeat a second-ranked player had inflicted on a top-ranked player.

Graf could compete with Monica on every surface, whereas Seles only beat Monica on two surfaces clay and the surface they use at the Australian Open. Steffi on the other hand beat Monica on Red Clay, Green Clay, Grass, and Hard Courts.

Clay- they are tied at 3:3... and this is supossed to be Seles' best surface and Steffi's worse.
Hard Courts- Steffi is undefeated 3-0
Grass- Steffi is undefeated 2-0
Carpet- Steff is undefeated 2-0
Rebound Ace- Monica leads 2-0

From a Head-to-Head perspective, Steffi has a better case to be cited as the better player- She seems like a "sure" bet...

disposablehero
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:15 AM
Ok.. without writing a thesis on the subject, I'll keep it brief. In terms of match-ups there was never one point in their careers where Monica had the overall edge in H2H's with Steffi.

Graf finished 1991 ranked second behind Seles, despite the fact that Graf beat Seles in their only two head-to-head matches in 1991. Graf’s 6-2, 6-1 win over the top-ranked Seles in the 1992 Wimbledon final was the most one-sided defeat a second-ranked player had inflicted on a top-ranked player.

Graf could compete with Monica on every surface, whereas Seles only beat Monica on two surfaces clay and the surface they use at the Australian Open. Steffi on the other hand beat Monica on Red Clay, Green Clay, Grass, and Hard Courts.

Clay- they are tied at 3:3... and this is supossed to be Seles' best surface and Steffi's worse.
Hard Courts- Steffi is undefeated 3-0
Grass- Steffi is undefeated 2-0
Carpet- Steff is undefeated 2-0
Rebound Ace- Monica leads 2-0

From a Head-to-Head perspective, Steffi has a better case to be cited as the better player- She seems like a "sure" bet...
Steffi would not be undefeated against Monica on Decoturf (Hardcourt) and Carpet if she was a good enough player to make a US Open or Virginia Slims Final during Monica's prime.

Stefwhit
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:23 AM
Steffi would not be undefeated against Monica on Decoturf (Hardcourt) and Carpet if she was a good enough player to make a US Open or Virginia Slims Final during Monica's prime.
You have Sele-ites...that's the disease where reality is altered and before you know it you find yourself stepping into a world of "WHAT IFS" and other alterantive versions of REALITY.

To make things fair we can both agree that in the "other" universe Monica is the better player, but back here on earth and reality as we know it, Steffi is the better player with REAL FACTS to back up the claims- not what ifs, or could have beens, but HARD CORE FACTS.... Facts that will live on in the record books. :wavey:

disposablehero
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:26 AM
You have Sele-ites...that's the disease where reality is altered and before you know it you find yourself stepping into a world of "WHAT IFS" and other alterantive versions of REALITY.

To make things fair we can both agree that in the "other" universe Monica is the better player, but back here on earth and reality as we know it, Steffi is the better player with REAL FACTS to back up the claims- not what ifs, or could have beens, but HARD CORE FACTS.... Facts that will live on in the record books. :wavey:
Did Steffi make the Virginia Slims Final in 90, 91, or 92? Yes or No? Did she compete in those events? Yer or No?

Did Steffi make the US Open Final in 91 or 92? Yes or No? Did she compete in the event? Yes or No?

You can make up your little "Seles-itis" diseases or whatever you like. They don't mask the fact that Steffi not only wasn't a good enough player to beat Monica in those Finals, she wasn't even good enough to participate in them.

spencercarlos
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:30 AM
Steffi would not be undefeated against Monica on Decoturf (Hardcourt) and Carpet if she was a good enough player to make a US Open or Virginia Slims Final during Monica's prime.
You can not assume that, since that never happened.
On clay Graf was very competitive against Monica beating her once at Roland Garros and losing close battles in 90 and 92 finals (3-2 Monica on clay), on grass Graf only lost 4 games in 4 sets against Monica (2-0 Steffi). Indoors and Hardcourt Steffi led Monica 1-0 on each, while Monica won in Rebound ace at the Australian Open (1-0 Monica). This numbers only pre-stabbing, which shows that even in those years where Steffi "sucked" losing to Gaby, Martina, Jana,Arantxa more often than in previous years, she was able to be competitive against the world number one player Monica Seles, and even lead head 2 head matches 6-4 overall.
I wonīt put the post stabbing numbers, because then Steffi would win this contest with ease.

disposablehero
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:34 AM
she was able to be competitive against the world number one player Monica Seles, and even lead head 2 head matches 6-4 overall.
Perhaps, but the entire world has gone potty because 17 year old Maria Sharapova won a Slam. Monica was 4-3 against Steffi after she turned SIXTEEN, and nearly beat Steffi at Roland Garros as a 5'4" 100lb 15 year old.

selking
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:38 AM
heres the truth MONICA IS AND WAS BETTER THEN STEFFI. Get over it. You graf fans all know that steffis titles would not have been won without the absense but you choose to say the oppisite and say that steffi won all of her titles fair and square. i think you guys need to come back to earth and accept reality.

Mr_Molik
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:39 AM
steffi all the way :bowdown:
she had a way better career

Mr_Molik
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:41 AM
i cant believe this is so close steffi is the greatest ever singles player, monica was just the best for 3 yrs :rolleyes:

spencercarlos
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:42 AM
Perhaps, but the entire world has gone poty because 17 year old Maria Sharapova won a Slam. Monica was 4-3 against Steffi after she turned SIXTEEN, and nearly beat Steffi at Roland Garros as a 5'4" 100lb 15 year old.
4-3 is not what i would call a DOMINATION, Monica led Steffi during that time and was without any doubt the world number one, still Steffi who was losing "early" in the tournaments and to players she used to beat, was ABLE to be competitive against the almost unbeatable Monica.

mboyle
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:46 AM
Monica fans can't accept what really happened. Here is the problem Monica fans:

You can't say "Well, Monica would've won that if she wasn't stabbed" you just can't!
I know it is unfortunate what happened, but you have to go by who had the better career. Monica will never catch up because she is retired.
No, you do who would have won at their respective picks. You are going on Monica 1992 vs. Graf 1988. I voted for Monica, but if Steffi wins, well that won't be as tragic as if Martina had beaten Monica.

selking
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:53 AM
people dont realize that steffi was in her prime in the eightys and then her prime ended when monica came. That was quite a short time. The only reason why steffi won. After monica won her french in 90 stefii won 2 grandslams. Both at wimbledon and one of those two monica did not play. After monica was stabbed she won 12 grandslams. I mean come on

disposablehero
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:58 AM
i cant believe this is so close steffi is the greatest ever singles player, monica was just the best for 3 yrs :rolleyes:
Greatest ever based on what?

Dominating her era? She dominated 88 and 89. The rest was handed to her on April 30, 1993.

Most Slam titles? Uh, no. Margaret Court?

Most overall Singles titles? Martina Navratilova.

Most weeks at #1: Yeah, there's a great criteria. I guess that makes Hingis the 4th best ever. Of course, Helen Wills was the top player in the world for about 12 continuous years.

Longest win streak? Nope, Navratilova again.

Most consecutive Slams won? Nope, Navratilova again.

Based on what?

Rothes
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:58 AM
sorry, but if Steffi was stabbed just like Monica did, Steffi would have done way worse. Monica owned Steffi 8-2 before her stabbing and Monica is the better player. Steffi's 22 grand slam numbers are deceptive. There should be a big asterisk next to the last 20 of them stating: The Seles Issue.
Why does Steffi get punished for something she didn't even do, Steffi didn't know Gunther :o and I am sure to say it Wasn't Steffi's doing that she produced a Maniac Fan.

The fact is it was a horrible day and stabbings and muders undoubtefully happen all over the world, it was a shame it had to happen to a great Tennis Player but in no way should Steffi's results get percieved as being subjective or lessened, Her Grandslams were won Fair and Square, even if Monica wasn't playing as of the Attack.

I geuss Martina Hingis should have her 1997 Slams doted with an * beside them seeing as Graf was injured ??

spencercarlos
Aug 17th, 2004, 03:00 AM
people dont realize that steffi was in her prime in the eightys and then her prime ended when monica came. That was quite a short time. The only reason why steffi won. After monica won her french in 90 stefii won 2 grandslams. Both at wimbledon and one of those two monica did not play. After monica was stabbed she won 12 grandslams. I mean come on
Steffi not only was in her prime, was world number one winning the Grand Slam and the Olympics in the same year, won 6 Grand Slams before Monica started to play the slams.
Won 5 more slams beating Monica in three of those. Losing 3 GS finals to Monica. So Monica won 5 of her 8 slams not playing vs Steffi, this does not means those slams does not count.. Come on :rolleyes:..
The same applies for Steffi who won 5 slams during Monicaīs abscense and 6 more with Monica (and many other great players) around, those slams count as well.

selking
Aug 17th, 2004, 03:06 AM
Steffi not only was in her prime, was world number one winning the Grand Slam and the Olympics in the same year, won 6 Grand Slams before Monica started to play the slams.
Won 5 more slams beating Monica in three of those. Losing 3 GS finals to Monica. So Monica won 5 of her 8 slams not playing vs Steffi, this does not means those slams does not count.. Come on :rolleyes:..
The same applies for Steffi who won 5 slams during Monicaīs abscense and 6 more with Monica (and many other great players) around, those slams count as well.

yea the difference is that monica wasn't even able to compete in the granslams that steffi won after hamburg. Steffi just sucked and wasn't able to get into the finals of the five that steffi wasn't present. Steffi had the chance because she was in the tournments but she just did have the talent to.

spencercarlos
Aug 17th, 2004, 03:06 AM
Greatest ever based on what?

Dominating her era? She dominated 88 and 89. The rest was handed to her on April 30, 1993.

Most Slam titles? Uh, no. Margaret Court?

Most overall Singles titles? Martina Navratilova.

Most weeks at #1: Yeah, there's a great criteria. I guess that makes Hingis the 4th best ever. Of course, Helen Wills was the top player in the world for about 12 continuous years.

Longest win streak? Nope, Navratilova again.

Most consecutive Slams won? Nope, Navratilova again.

Based on what?
Nothing was handed to her after April 30 of 1993, Still Steffi had to play those slams and win them, against the players she used to lose during 91-92, and guess what? the same players that Monica was beating in the Grand Slam finals. Jana, Arantxa, Mary Joe, and so on.
I canīt wait till hear from you that these players i just mentioned were better players during 91-92 than they were afterwards :rolleyes: .

disposablehero
Aug 17th, 2004, 03:11 AM
Nothing was handed to her after April 30 of 1993, Still Steffi had to play those slams and win them, against the players she used to lose during 91-92, and guess what? the same players that Monica was beating in the Grand Slam finals. Jana, Arantxa, Mary Joe, and so on.
I canīt wait till hear from you that these players i just mentioned were better players during 91-92 than they were afterwards :rolleyes: .
Yeah, the same players Monica was beating. When #1 disappears in an instant, #2 is usually the most likely person to assume the throne. Mary Joe in fact was better in 91-92. Jana was better in the mid 90's, as was Arantxa. But all three suffered mightly againt the unspoiled Monica.

spencercarlos
Aug 17th, 2004, 03:12 AM
yea the difference is that monica wasn't even able to compete in the granslams that steffi won after hamburg. Steffi just sucked and wasn't able to get into the finals of the five that steffi wasn't present. Steffi had the chance because she was in the tournments but she just did have the talent to.
So what? Monica was not able to dominate when Steffi completly dissapeared after Roland Garros 97..

Rothes
Aug 17th, 2004, 03:18 AM
people dont realize that steffi was in her prime in the eightys and then her prime ended when monica came. That was quite a short time.
She wasn't in her prime, but I believe by results Monica was going to eclipse her, you know? coming out of her shell, like Kim/Justine and both of the beligians havn't peaked have they? Steffi was around the middlish part of her career, give or take.

The fact Steffi from 1993 Dominated the Tour for roughly another 6-7 years, I do believe that it would of been alot different if Monica hadn't been stabbed, however it's not logical to make assumptions like she would have dominated.

disposablehero
Aug 17th, 2004, 03:18 AM
So what? Monica was not able to dominate when Steffi completly dissapeared after Roland Garros 97..
Monica was not the same player, never was after 93. She didn't win the Australian Open in 96 by being in fine form. She won it by having twice the talent of everyone else in the field. Upon her return she had to fight falling 2 and a half years behind the field, her father dying a slow death, the knowledge that her compatriots had been willing to make money off her misfortune (the ranking vote), persisitent migraines, and the nagging realization of what could happen to her if she became the best in the world again. I doubt any one of those things could really have derailed her, but the combination was an immense burden every time out.

spencercarlos
Aug 17th, 2004, 03:20 AM
Yeah, the same players Monica was beating. When #1 disappears in an instant, #2 is usually the most likely person to assume the throne. Mary Joe in fact was better in 91-92. Jana was better in the mid 90's, as was Arantxa. But all three suffered mightly againt the unspoiled Monica.
Mary Joe played the best tennis of her life during the spring of 1993 and played an incredible Roland Garros, beating Arantxa 6-2 6-2 in the semis after the 10-8 third set vs Sabatini says a lot, and Steffi was lucky to beat her in the final. Jana started to play great tennis from the end of 92 to onwards, her tough three set loses to Graf and Seles in the end of 92 are prove to that. Talk about Wimbledon 93 where Jana played some of her very best tennis (only surpassed by her 98 effort against Hingis in the semis).
All of this players became better players after April 93, anyone who watched them play knows that.

spencercarlos
Aug 17th, 2004, 03:22 AM
Monica was not the same player, never was after 93. She didn't win the Australian Open in 96 by being in fine form. She won it by having twice the talent of everyone else in the field. Upon her return she had to fight falling 2 and a half years behind the field, her father dying a slow death, the knowledge that her compatriots had been willing to make money off her misfortune (the ranking vote), persisitent migraines, and the nagging realization of what could happen to her if she became the best in the world again. I doubt any one of those things could really have derailed her, but the combination was an immense burden every time out.
Sure Monica had problems, but the field became a lot better than it was before the stabbing, that is something that you people find hard to admit.

disposablehero
Aug 17th, 2004, 03:45 AM
Sure Monica had problems, but the field became a lot better than it was before the stabbing, that is something that you people find hard to admit.
Better by who? Mary Pierce? Other than her, it was the exact same players when Monica came back as when she was forced out. Matter of fact, not too surprising considering they were all older than her. Graf, Sabatini, Sanchez, Martinez, Novotna, you name it. Same players, and suddenly Monica wasn't dominating anymore. Either a whole bunch of players just happened to get better, or Monica wasn't the same. Graf fans believe its more likely 10 players got better than 1 got worse.

spencercarlos
Aug 17th, 2004, 03:49 AM
Better by who? Mary Pierce? Other than her, it was the exact same players when Monica came back as when she was forced out. Matter of fact, not too surprising considering they were all older than her. Graf, Sabatini, Sanchez, Martinez, Novotna, you name it. Same players, and suddenly Monica wasn't dominating anymore. Either a whole bunch of players just happened to get better, or Monica wasn't the same. Graf fans believe its more likely 10 players got better than 1 got worse.
Acutally the one from that group who got worse was Sabatini, because Arantxa, Conchita, Pierce, Jana, Mary Joe, Davenport all improved during Monicaīs absence. The same players, sure they were, but they were improving did not they? Or they all were peaking when Monica was number one? :rolleyes:

FaceyFacem
Aug 17th, 2004, 04:03 AM
such an amazing debate, because it really is the focus of 90s tennis, the true battle of it, but we didn't have the powerhouses of the 80s battle in the other semi having even close to as intense a debate, do you think its because we view stuff in the more recent past as more important? or do you think that people on wtaworld are too young to know the wonders of the martina/chris rivalry? also, on the stabbing issue, i still believe steffi would have figured monica out and then gone on to win many (although not all) the majors she did from 93-96, however, i would still argue that thinking of peak value 88 steffi and 92 monica are the peaks, and secondly, i'm also going by the 95 US Open guide format, using quality matchup/critical matchup, etc, and you HAVE to pick the supposed "greatest match of all time" don't you?!?! monica won it...

Veritas
Aug 17th, 2004, 04:52 AM
As much as I love Monica, I have to agree that Steffi's 22 Slam trophies pretty much show how much of a legend in the sport she is. I'm a huge Monica fan, and I still believe that Monica might have taken a substantial number of Slams away from Steffi and narrowed their H2H encounters had the '93 incident not occurred, but no-one can change what's happened.

Rothes
Aug 17th, 2004, 05:03 AM
As much as I love Monica, I have to agree that Steffi's 22 Slam trophies pretty much show how much of a legend in the sport she is. I'm a huge Monica fan, and I still believe that Monica might have taken a substantial number of Slams away from Steffi and narrowed their H2H encounters had the '93 incident not occurred, but no-one can change what's happened.
:wavey: They can't, whats done is done, I get the feeling in other debates about Monica and Steffi are that some People think that Steffi should contribute part of her grandslams to Monica because past results conclude that Monica would have defintly/unanimously/100% won them. :rolleyes: :o

The cookie doesn't crumble like that.

MistyGrey
Aug 17th, 2004, 05:05 AM
Oh I hate these Steffi Monica debates..

But just for my two buck... STEFFI! :adore:

Rothes
Aug 17th, 2004, 05:09 AM
As much as I love Monica, I have to agree that Steffi's 22 Slam trophies pretty much show how much of a legend in the sport she is.
Exactly, Having 22 Slams under the belt is amazing, Grandslams didn't end or anything and Steffi still had to face 7 Opponents on route to a Grandslam, it was just a pity that Monica was not competing for a part of them,

Highly Probably that if the stabbing didn't occur Steffi's Grandslam count would of been lower then what it concluded to be at the end of 1999.

irma
Aug 17th, 2004, 05:15 AM
thing about this arguement is that both fansides try to devaluate the other and that's the ridiculous thing here.

monica fans want to make monica the greatest. when you make steffi very great then too then you have a stronger arguement since she also had the best competition. (when she was number 1)
if steffi fans want to make steffi the greatest ever then better make monica very great too, because how can you be the best ever when somebody passed you for a few years who is not even amoung the greatest


why not respect both? :wavey:

Philbo
Aug 17th, 2004, 05:44 AM
Good to see Disposeable Hero kicking the graffanatics ass's in this thread. Its actually quite amusing watching the graffanatics cling to lines such as "you have to resort to what if's" - when its painfully obvious that Monica was the clear dominant player in the game.

Their head to head wasnt dominant, but as DH has said - its Steffi's shortcoming that she was losing to the Sanchez's and Navratilova's during Monica's reign and would lose befire making the finals..

To all the Graffanatics that cant hack their fave having half a hollow record, I ask this - IF MONICA WASNT DOMINANT AND GRAF WAS STILL ON TOP THEN WHY WAS GUNTHER SO MOTIVATED TO TAKE MONICA OUT?

He has been QUOTED as saying he couldnt deal with seeing Monica in Steffi's 'rightful position of # 1' - thats all the evidence you need - the fact that Monica got stabbed was directly because she was the # 1 player...

ANd in the big matches they played - the slam finals - Monica easily comes out on top - she won th 90 French final, the 92 French final, and the 93 Aus Open - ON A NUETRAL SURFACE - all Steffi got was the wimby final when Monica didnt grunt and hardly showed up - still counts as a victory to Graf but any intelligent fan who watched the game then knows that Monica was on top.

selking
Aug 17th, 2004, 05:58 AM
i like you
i pretty much like anyone who likes moni

pokey camp
Aug 17th, 2004, 06:00 AM
First off, I got no beef with whoever wins this. Both are Hall of Famers (current and future). Monica dominated Steffi for a bit, Steffi dominated Monica. And we, as fans, got see some great, great tennis along the way. So I've always thought we were the real winners of this match-up.

At the time, I truly loved Monica. She is the player that made me a true tennis fan. I remember going out and hitting ball after ball with an old wooden racket (that was all my family could afford at the time) after watching her play. And it's stuck with me years later. I simply loved her fight, her passion and her game. I sometimes thought of her early fearlessness when I went onto the field when I played DI (no, not tennis) in college. Ever since then every player I've liked has had similar qualities to Seles. However, I refuse to be one of those, "If Seles hadn't been stabbed...." fans, no matter how much I emotionally believed at the time that Monica was destined to be the greatest of all time. Steffi got it done on court. Period. No one can ever take that away from her. I respect her work ethic more than any player in any sport I've followed.

Regardless, I voted for Seles. I don't think I've ever seen a player dominate a future Hall of Famer like she did. And yeah, obviously that's debatable too, but I'm just remembering my complete amazement at the time. That and I’m a monumental sap. :rolleyes: Though based on court performance I completely understand people voting either way. What I don't understand is the nastiness this question sometimes brings out.

chris whiteside
Aug 17th, 2004, 06:04 AM
I know it's a cop-out but if both players are at their best I just can't decide who would win.

tennisiscool
Aug 17th, 2004, 06:12 AM
Monica at her best would beat Steffi at her best - 2 sets on rebound ace , clay and hard courts. She would need maybe three sets on grass but she'd beat her there too. Just my opinion :angel:

chris whiteside
Aug 17th, 2004, 06:12 AM
What surface is this on?

Rothes
Aug 17th, 2004, 06:14 AM
What surface is this on?
It's general.

irma
Aug 17th, 2004, 06:34 AM
Monica at her best would beat Steffi at her best - 2 sets on rebound ace , clay and hard courts. She would need maybe three sets on grass but she'd beat her there too. Just my opinion :angel:So if Monica is so superior then why are people still so Steffi obsessed?
If Steffi is irrelevant anyway then why all this threads about her?
People have a lot of need to devaluate her and no way Monica is the only reason.

If she is so hollow, not great, sucking etc. etc. etc then move on and find another hobby :wavey: (and no I am a fan. I don't mind Steffi is all these things. I still love her so I don't need another hobby. well I do but that's a different story)

skanky~skanketta
Aug 17th, 2004, 08:36 AM
Go Monica!

stevenPRIDE
Aug 17th, 2004, 11:05 AM
Steffy has 22 slams, Monica has 9....enough said.

Pengwin
Aug 17th, 2004, 11:45 AM
when they were both around monica always was the better player

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 12:16 PM
when they were both around monica always was the better player


Yeah, that's why Steffi is 10-5 head-to-head against Monica (and even 3-2 when Seles was #1), dumbo ....

!<blocparty>!
Aug 17th, 2004, 12:18 PM
Come on Monica. Can't wait to read this thread properly later on.

:bounce:

Crazy_Fool
Aug 17th, 2004, 12:19 PM
when they were both around monica always was the better player
Totally agree ;) Monica at her best is better than Steffi at her best imo.

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 12:43 PM
I still haven't seen 1 person list what 'critical' match Graf won over Seles.

Meanwhile, I've seen 2 listed in Seles' corner -- their great French Open final and the '93 Australian Open.

Another thing that I find interesting -- People are trying to say that '88 was Graf's peak. Okay, so she got worse from then to '91-'94? But then these same people talk about how ASV, Mary Joe Fernandez, Novotna, etc. all got better after Seles' stabbing, adding value to Graf's Slams during this period. What, so everybody gets better as their career goes on except for Graf? Besides, many commentators say that Graf played better at the '93 AO then she had ever played before. That's why that final is such a great match.

Also, for all of you still harping on the head-to-head for Graf and Seles during '90-'93:

1. Did you miss the several posts about how Seles didn't get a chance to extend gain the edge over Graf b/c Graf lost early in all the fast hardcourt tournaments?

2. Did you miss the Navi/Sabi comparisons where Seles played them close in regular tournaments and then crushed them in the big events?

The bottom line to me seems to be this -- The '93 AO had Seles playing at or close to her peak. The '93 AO had Graf playing close to her peak. With Graf, you might want to quibble, but I don't see how you can say that she was much worse than she was in '88 or early '94. It was a GS final. It was on a pretty democratic surface for the 2. And Seles won.

spencercarlos
Aug 17th, 2004, 01:08 PM
I still haven't seen 1 person list what 'critical' match Graf won over Seles.

Meanwhile, I've seen 2 listed in Seles' corner -- their great French Open final and the '93 Australian Open.

Another thing that I find interesting -- People are trying to say that '88 was Graf's peak. Okay, so she got worse from then to '91-'94? But then these same people talk about how ASV, Mary Joe Fernandez, Novotna, etc. all got better after Seles' stabbing, adding value to Graf's Slams during this period. What, so everybody gets better as their career goes on except for Graf? Besides, many commentators say that Graf played better at the '93 AO then she had ever played before. That's why that final is such a great match.

Also, for all of you still harping on the head-to-head for Graf and Seles during '90-'93:

1. Did you miss the several posts about how Seles didn't get a chance to extend gain the edge over Graf b/c Graf lost early in all the fast hardcourt tournaments?

2. Did you miss the Navi/Sabi comparisons where Seles played them close in regular tournaments and then crushed them in the big events?

The bottom line to me seems to be this -- The '93 AO had Seles playing at or close to her peak. The '93 AO had Graf playing close to her peak. With Graf, you might want to quibble, but I don't see how you can say that she was much worse than she was in '88 or early '94. It was a GS final. It was on a pretty democratic surface for the 2. And Seles won.
About the Australian open 93 final, i would not say that it was Grafīs best match, in fact she missed some key forehands during the third set. Monica played better and deserved the win obviosly, but the score of the third set is a little bit overlooking, even comentator (Cliff something :p ) said that at 2-3 Graf serving the match could have gone either way and in a span of 5 minutes all of the sudden was all Monica at 5-2 with some match points. The match was hight quality but it showed that Graf mental part was not there, Monica was superior on that aspect.

Actually Steffi 90-92 was losing to a lot of people that she used to beat with ease in the past, and during this time Monica "only" went 4-3.

The point is that you all say that since Monica was stabbed, Grafīs slam wins does not count, why donīt they count? Graf was beating the same players that Monica beating in 5 of 8 grand slams wins (where she did not face Steffi) before the stabbing.. Why Steffiīs "sucking" time finished after 1993? after all she was not losing before the finals anymore and won 4 stragiht GS during that stretch? Was that also Monicaīs abcense fault? Im not talking about the slam wins, im talking about the fact that Steffi stoped losing to Martina, Sabatini, Arantxa, Jana and started to beat them again in a more consistent basis, something she was having trouble with, before Selesīs stabbing.

This about the point 1 of your post.

About point number 2. How could rebound ace be a democratic surface when Monica was invincible/unbeatable there?
Actually rebound ace court would suit Monicaīs game better than on any surface, because it was quicker than clay (but not as much as hard court decoturf) and also the higher bounce of the ball on that court worked wonders for Monica.
Grafīs game was suited better for Indoors and Grass, so definetly hard courts was the fairest surface for them to play against eachother, there Graf beat Monica 6-4 6-3 in their only meeting before the stabbing (1991 San Antonio). Overall 3-2 on hard courts if we include rebound ace.

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 01:17 PM
"About the Australian open 93 final, i would not say that it was Grafīs best match, in fact she missed some key forehands during the third set. Monica played better and deserved the win obviosly, but the score of the third set is a little bit overlooking, even comentator (Cliff something ) said that at 2-3 Graf serving the match could have gone either way and in a span of 5 minutes all of the sudden was all Monica at 5-2 with some match points. The match was hight quality but it showed that Graf mental part was not there, Monica was superior on that aspect."

As I said, we might quibble over whether Graf was in 'peak' form at that point, but I think it's tough to argue that she was much worse there than she was in '88 or early '94 (usually considered her best periods). And I think we can certainly say that she was closer to peak form them Seles before '90 (not even top 5) or after the stabbing. So, when both players were closet to their peaks, they played 1 GS match on a democratic surface, and Monica won in 3.

"Actually Steffi 90-92 was losing to a lot of people that she used to beat with ease in the past, and during this time Monica "only" went 4-3."

Exactly, with 1 feeding into 2. You can basically re-word your statent a bit --"Because Steffi was losing to a lot of people that she used to beat with ease in the past, Monica only went 4-3." Frankly, I'm fine with an either/or type deal, but Graf fans need to pick one. Either Graf slumped from late '90 to early '93 (or some subset of this) and thus would have lost to Seles more if she made GS and VS finals, or she didn't slump and thus might have held her own head-to-head against Seles if she made these finals. But you guys are trying to have it both ways.

"The point is that you all say that since Monica was stabbed, Grafīs slam wins does not count, why donīt they count? Graf was beating the same players that Monica beating in 5 of 8 grand slams wins (where she did not face Steffi) before the stabbing.. Why Steffiīs "sucking" time finished after 1993? after all she was not losing before the finals anymore and won 4 stragiht GS during that stretch? Was that also Monicaīs abcense fault? Im not talking about the slam wins, im talking about the fact that Steffi stoped losing to Martina, Sabatini, Arantxa, Jana and started to beat them again in a more consistent basis, something she was having trouble with, before Selesīs stabbing."

I'm not in the camp that says Graf's GS wins after the stabbing don't count. Basically, it's the same players as Monica beat, but without Monica (admittedly a big 'if')

spencercarlos
Aug 17th, 2004, 01:23 PM
edited

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 01:29 PM
"About point number 2. How could rebound ace be a democratic surface when Monica was invincible/unbeatable there?
Actually rebound ace court would suit Monicaīs game better than on any surface, because it was quicker than clay (but not as much as hard court decoturf) and also the higher bounce of the ball on that court worked wonders for Monica.
Grafīs game was suited better for Indoors and Grass, so definetly hard courts was the fairest surface for them to play against eachother, there Graf beat Monica 6-4 6-3 in their only meeting before the stabbing (1991 San Antonio). Overall 3-2 on hard courts if we include rebound ace."

Okay, so if Rebound Ace is #1 for Seles, then as others have suggested, take either of Seles' French Open victories over Graf as the 'critical' victory.

San Antonio is just so bogus to me. It was a week after Seles won the Lipton while Graf didn't even make the final. And then later that year, Seles won the U.S. Open and Virginia Slims without opposition from Graf. Seles was clearly the better player on this surface during her prime; it's just that Graf was losing too early to face her. Compare the Sels vs. Navi and Sabi stats.

alfajeffster
Aug 17th, 2004, 01:36 PM
sorry, but if Steffi was stabbed just like Monica did, Steffi would have done way worse. Monica owned Steffi 8-2 before her stabbing and Monica is the better player. Steffi's 22 grand slam numbers are deceptive. There should be a big asterisk next to the last 20 of them stating: The Seles Issue.
1989-05-29Roland GarrosClaySFSteffi Graf (GER)6-3 3-6 6-3
1989-06-26WimbledonGrassR16Steffi Graf (GER)6-0 6-1
1989-10-23BrightonIndoor CarpetFSteffi Graf (GER)7-5 6-4
1990-05-14BerlinClayFMonica Seles (USA)6-4 6-3
1990-05-28Roland GarrosClayFMonica Seles (USA)7-6 6-4
1991-03-25San AntonioHardcourtFSteffi Graf (GER)6-4 6-3
1991-04-29HamburgClayFSteffi Graf (GER)7-5 6-7 6-3
1992-05-25Roland GarrosClayFMonica Seles (USA)6-2 3-6 10-8
1992-06-22WimbledonGrassFSteffi Graf (GER)6-2 6-1
1993-01-18Australian OpenHardcourtFMonica Seles (USA)4-6 6-3 6-2

I'm sorry- at what point was Seles up 8-2? Oh, I forgot, we were talking about trips to the butter dish at the cafeteria, not tennis matches...:lol:

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 01:40 PM
Totally agree ;) Monica at her best is better than Steffi at her best imo.


There is a funny tournament in a funny country. They simply call this tourney "Wimbledon".
Some crazies say it is the most important and prestigious tournament in the world. Some mad tennis players say winning it is the best a player can accomplish in his life.

Steffi and Monica met there twice.
The first match ended with a 6-0, 6-1 destruction of young Monica.
When they met for the second time Monica was at her peak prime ....
Nevertheless she got the worst thrashing for a #1 player in a slam final ever (6-2, 6-1).

Not important of course .....

:lol: :lol: :lol:

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 01:46 PM
Here's another interesting point about Graf's play from 1990-AO 1993 vs. AO 1993-on.

A few of us have repeated how Seles won the '91-'92 U.S. Opens and the '90-'92 Virginia Slims while Graf lost early, leading to the presumption that Seles would have beaten Graf on the faster surfaces if Graf weren't losing earlier.

Well, some have responded with the Steffi slump theory, saying she lost to players she beat from 1993 on. Well, let's look at this claim:

'92 Virginia Slims - loses to Lori McNeil. Then, in '94, she loses to Lori again at Wimbeldon. They don't play at the U.S. Open or Virginia Slims

'92 U.S. Open - loses to ASV. Then, in '93, Graf beats ASV at the Virginia Slims, but she loses to her again at the '94 U.S. Open

'91 Virginia Slims - loses to Novotna. Then, she goes on to dominate Jana despite Jana getting better.

'91 U.S. Open - loses to Navratilova. No more GS matchups after this. In '93, Navi beats Graf in Tokyo. In '94, with Navi's ranking having gone way down, Graf returns the favor.

'90 Virginia Slims - loses to Sabatini. Then, she goes on to dominate Sabi after Seles leaves. However, it's pretty much beyond dispute that Sabi was no longer the same player after Seles was stabbed as she was in the early '90s.

So, I'm not sure that Graf's early losses really say that she was in a 'slump.'

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 01:51 PM
Calimero377, of course Wimbledon is important, but basing Graf vs. Seles on Wimbledon is like basing Navi vs. Evert on Wimbledon. We're looking at who would win on a democratic surface. It looks like people are saying either:

Graf: 1. grass 2. fast hard courts/indoor carpet 3. clay 4. rebound ace
Seles: 1. Clay 2. rebound ace 3. fast hard courts/indoor carpet 4. grass

or:

they are reversing #3 and #4 for Graf and #1 and #2 for Seles

So, we should base the winner on basically an surface but grass.

spencercarlos
Aug 17th, 2004, 01:52 PM
Here's another interesting point about Graf's play from 1990-AO 1993 vs. AO 1993-on.

A few of us have repeated how Seles won the '91-'92 U.S. Opens and the '90-'92 Virginia Slims while Graf lost early, leading to the presumption that Seles would have beaten Graf on the faster surfaces if Graf weren't losing earlier.

Well, some have responded with the Steffi slump theory, saying she lost to players she beat from 1993 on. Well, let's look at this claim:

'92 Virginia Slims - loses to Lori McNeil. Then, in '94, she loses to Lori again at Wimbeldon. They don't play at the U.S. Open or Virginia Slims

'92 U.S. Open - loses to ASV. Then, in '93, Graf beats ASV at the Virginia Slims, but she loses to her again at the '94 U.S. Open

'91 Virginia Slims - loses to Novotna. Then, she goes on to dominate Jana despite Jana getting better.

'91 U.S. Open - loses to Navratilova. No more GS matchups after this. In '93, Navi beats Graf in Tokyo. In '94, with Navi's ranking having gone way down, Graf returns the favor.

'90 Virginia Slims - loses to Sabatini. Then, she goes on to dominate Sabi after Seles leaves. However, it's pretty much beyond dispute that Sabi was no longer the same player after Seles was stabbed as she was in the early '90s.

So, I'm not sure that Graf's early losses really say that she was in a 'slump.'
So Graf losing early to other players was Selesīs fault too :lol:

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 01:56 PM
"So Graf losing early to other players was Selesīs fault too."

I think you're missing my point. What I'm saying is that it was not out of the ordinary for Graf to lose to the players she lost to on the fast hard courts in '90-'93. She lost to McNeil and had trouble with her again. She lost to ASV and lost to her at the U.S. Open again. She lost to Navi, and had lost to her before and would lose to her again before Navi went down in the rankings and retired. She lost to Sabi, and Sabi wasn't the same player after Seles was stabbed. The only really surprising loss in this stretch was to Novotna.

So, really, my point is to dispute the claim that Graf slumped on these fast hard court 'big' tournaments from '90-'93. I think she played at basically the same level from '88-'96, and these results bear that out much more than I thought.

spencercarlos
Aug 17th, 2004, 01:57 PM
Calimero377, of course Wimbledon is important, but basing Graf vs. Seles on Wimbledon is like basing Navi vs. Evert on Wimbledon. We're looking at who would win on a democratic surface. It looks like people are saying either:

Graf: 1. grass 2. fast hard courts/indoor carpet 3. clay 4. rebound ace
Seles: 1. Clay 2. rebound ace 3. fast hard courts/indoor carpet 4. grass

or:

they are reversing #3 and #4 for Graf and #1 and #2 for Seles

So, we should base the winner on basically an surface but grass.
Graf trashed Monica on her best surface, not allowing more than 2 games in a set, while Steffi battles Monica on her best surface to 10-8 third set in 92 while Monica was number one and Steffi was in a slump, barely reaching finals, but having pretty decent records against the unbeatable Monica. That says a lot.

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:01 PM
I still haven't seen 1 person list what 'critical' match Graf won over Seles.

Meanwhile, I've seen 2 listed in Seles' corner -- their great French Open final and the '93 Australian Open.

Another thing that I find interesting -- People are trying to say that '88 was Graf's peak. Okay, so she got worse from then to '91-'94? But then these same people talk about how ASV, Mary Joe Fernandez, Novotna, etc. all got better after Seles' stabbing, adding value to Graf's Slams during this period. What, so everybody gets better as their career goes on except for Graf? Besides, many commentators say that Graf played better at the '93 AO then she had ever played before. That's why that final is such a great match.

Also, for all of you still harping on the head-to-head for Graf and Seles during '90-'93:

1. Did you miss the several posts about how Seles didn't get a chance to extend gain the edge over Graf b/c Graf lost early in all the fast hardcourt tournaments?

2. Did you miss the Navi/Sabi comparisons where Seles played them close in regular tournaments and then crushed them in the big events?

The bottom line to me seems to be this -- The '93 AO had Seles playing at or close to her peak. The '93 AO had Graf playing close to her peak. With Graf, you might want to quibble, but I don't see how you can say that she was much worse than she was in '88 or early '94. It was a GS final. It was on a pretty democratic surface for the 2. And Seles won.


Why is Wimbledon 92 - the most prestigious slam of them all - not "critical"?
Because Steffi demolished Monica?
Dumb Steffi, if she had made it closer that match would have counted. One point here, one point there ....

And USO 95 & 96?
Not "critical"?
Oops, don't count because Monica "was not the same player after the stabbing" ....

What about Masters 98 & FO 99?
Almost all tennis experts called these matches "classics" right after the last ball had been played?
Oops, the stabbing. Just 5 years before.

The great Hamburg match in 91?
Doesn't count. Small tournament .....



BTW ...
1) Which commentator said that Graf played better at AO 93 than in 88/89?
Must have been an American for sure .....
2) Novotna, MJF, ASV, Martinez, Pierce were better post-92. Sabatini, Navi were worse & Seles out post-93.
3) EVEN in that time frame when Graf regularily lost BEFORE finals (won by #1 Seles), Steffi was able to hold a 3-2 head-to-head LEAD over Seles. In earlier and later years Steffi DID reach those finals. Does tell us something. As the 10-5 career head-to-head does .....
4) Graf was better in 88/89 than in 91/92/winter93.
She lost 5 matches in 88/89 but 15 matches in 91/92.
She lost 25 sets in 88/89 but 46 in 91/92.
She reached 8 slam finals in 88/89 but only 3 in 91/92.
She beat Navi three times in 88/89 with 6-1 in 3rd set at slams. But she lost 2 of 3 matches in 91/93 against Martina.
5) Graf was better in winter 94 than in winter 93.
She beat ASV at AO 94 with 6-0, 6-2 but struggled against her 6-4, 7-5 one year earlier.
She defeated Navratilova in Tokio 94 with 6-2, 6-4 but lost to her a year earlier.

:wavey:

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:05 PM
"Graf trashed Monica on her best surface, not allowing more than 2 games in a set, while Steffi battles Monica on her best surface to 10-8 third set in 92 while Monica was number one and Steffi was in a slump, barely reaching finals, but having pretty decent records against the unbeatable Monica. That says a lot."

In all fairness, it's pretty tough to criticize Seles for losing to Graf in their 1st Wimbledon match-up when it was Seles' 1st Wimbledon. After all, Graf lost to Jo Durie in her 1st Wimbledon

And in the 2nd match-up (Seles' 3rd Wimbledon), Seles had just come off a win over Navi, the same player who beat Graf in her 3rd Wimbledon. Seles did play poorly in the finals, but it was 1 match. Contrast this with the U.S. Open, where Navi beat Graf in the SF before losing to Seles in the F.

And, you cite clay as Monica's best surface, and she also beat Graf in the AO Finals on rebound Ace.

spencercarlos
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:05 PM
"So Graf losing early to other players was Selesīs fault too."

I think you're missing my point. What I'm saying is that it was not out of the ordinary for Graf to lose to the players she lost to on the fast hard courts in '90-'93. She lost to McNeil and had trouble with her again. She lost to ASV and lost to her at the U.S. Open again. She lost to Navi, and had lost to her before and would lose to her again before Navi went down in the rankings and retired. She lost to Sabi, and Sabi wasn't the same player after Seles was stabbed. The only really surprising loss in this stretch was to Novotna.

So, really, my point is to dispute the claim that Graf slumped on these fast hard court 'big' tournaments from '90-'93. I think she played at basically the same level from '88-'96, and these results bear that out much more than I thought.
Itīs really ridiculous to say that Steffi 88 was the same LEVEL of Steffi 95-96, Steffi was a superior player, she had developed a better all court game, improved her volley, could hit backhand passing shots with much more regularity than she did in 88.
The same goes to the other players Arantxa improved a lot as well, same as Conchita, Mary Pierce, Jana, all of them improved. Not to mention the new names that came around, the Davenport, Hingises, and finally the Williamses.
Monica also improved a LOT, became a WAY better server, her net play and overhead became better too (she used to miss a lot there even on easy shots), added more power to her game, really the part that hurted Monica more was her fitness, something she fixed for RG 98 and never seemed interested or able to continue with that. That is not Grafīs fault either.

spencercarlos
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:10 PM
Why is Wimbledon 92 - the most prestigious slam of them all - not "critical"?
Because Steffi demolished Monica?
Dumb Steffi, if she had made it closer that match would have counted. One point here, one point there ....

And USO 95 & 96?
Not "critical"?
Oops, don't count because Monica "was not the same player after the stabbing" ....

What about Masters 98 & FO 99?
Almost all tennis experts called these matches "classics" right after the last ball had been played?
Oops, the stabbing. Just 5 years before.

The great Hamburg match in 91?
Doesn't count. Small tournament .....



BTW ...
1) Which commentator said that Graf played better at AO 93 than in 88/89?
Must have been an American for sure .....
2) Novotna, MJF, ASV, Martinez, Pierce were better post-92. Sabatini, Navi were worse & Seles out post-93.
3) EVEN in that time frame when Graf regularily lost BEFORE finals (won by #1 Seles), Steffi was able to hold a 3-2 head-to-head LEAD over Seles. In earlier and later years Steffi DID reach those finals. Does tell us something. As the 10-5 career head-to-head does .....
4) Graf was better in 88/89 than in 91/92/winter93.
She lost 5 matches in 88/89 but 15 matches in 91/92.
She lost 25 sets in 88/89 but 46 in 91/92.
She reached 8 slam finals in 88/89 but only 3 in 91/92.
She beat Navi three times in 88/89 with 6-1 in 3rd set at slams. But she lost 2 of 3 matches in 91/93 against Martina.
5) Graf was better in winter 94 than in winter 93.
She beat ASV at AO 94 with 6-0, 6-2 but struggled against her 6-4, 7-5 one year earlier.
She defeated Navratilova in Tokio 94 with 6-2, 6-4 but lost to her a year earlier.

:wavey:
Completly agree. Enough said

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:10 PM
Here's another interesting point about Graf's play from 1990-AO 1993 vs. AO 1993-on. ....

'92 U.S. Open - loses to ASV. Then, in '93, Graf beats ASV at the Virginia Slims, but she loses to her again at the '94 U.S. Open
...


Steffi's USO 92 loss was the most clear-cut ever on hard-courts.
In 94 Graf lost a tight 3-setter when visibly injured (back).
BTW, in 95/96 Graf beat Sanchez in 34 slam finals .........

alfajeffster
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:10 PM
BTW ...
1) Which commentator said that Graf played better at AO 93 than in 88/89?
Must have been an American for sure .....

As an objective, fair-minded, American-born citizen of the world, I have to take exception to this ridiculous comment. The rest of your reasoning seems balanced, if not a bit harsh at times.

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:13 PM
"Why is Wimbledon 92 - the most prestigious slam of them all - not "critical"?
Because Steffi demolished Monica?
Dumb Steffi, if she had made it closer that match would have counted. One point here, one point there ...."

Not 'critical' b/c Graf's best surface and Monica's worse. 'Critical' should be on a democratic surface.

"And USO 95 & 96?
Not "critical"?
Oops, don't count because Monica "was not the same player after the stabbing" ...."

Yes, she was never the same.

"What about Masters 98 & FO 99?
Almost all tennis experts called these matches "classics" right after the last ball had been played?
Oops, the stabbing. Just 5 years before."

Never the same.

"The great Hamburg match in 91?
Doesn't count. Small tournament ....."

French Open trumps small clay court tournament in Graf's home country.

"BTW ...
1) Which commentator said that Graf played better at AO 93 than in 88/89?
Must have been an American for sure ....."

Carillo

"2) Novotna, MJF, ASV, Martinez, Pierce were better post-92. Sabatini, Navi were worse & Seles out post-93."

Fair enough, and my point is that Graf's losses to Sabi and Navi in '90-'93 are not indicative of a slump.

"3) EVEN in that time frame when Graf regularily lost BEFORE finals (won by #1 Seles), Steffi was able to hold a 3-2 head-to-head LEAD over Seles. In earlier and later years Steffi DID reach those finals. Does tell us something. As the 10-5 career head-to-head does ....."

Yes, it tells us that Seles was never the same after the stabbing. Again, look at the Sabi and Navi comparisons for why your #s are flawed. Monica played much better in the big tournaments.

"4) Graf was better in 88/89 than in 91/92/winter93.
She lost 5 matches in 88/89 but 15 matches in 91/92.
She lost 25 sets in 88/89 but 46 in 91/92.
She reached 8 slam finals in 88/89 but only 3 in 91/92.
She beat Navi three times in 88/89 with 6-1 in 3rd set at slams. But she lost 2 of 3 matches in 91/93 against Martina."

I might grant you '91, but Graf actually played very well '92-'93 AO. She beat Navi in their only head-to-head. She played those 2 great finals against Seles.

"5) Graf was better in winter 94 than in winter 93.
She beat ASV at AO 94 with 6-0, 6-2 but struggled against her 6-4, 7-5 one year earlier.
She defeated Navratilova in Tokio 94 with 6-2, 6-4 but lost to her a year earlier."

Ahhh...the old 'Graf was great for a few tournaments in '94 argument. Even if this is true, it ignores the fact that Seles would have likely dominated her in the rest of '94.

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:14 PM
Here's another interesting point about Graf's play from 1990-AO 1993 vs. AO 1993-on.
....

'91 U.S. Open - loses to Navratilova. No more GS matchups after this. In '93, Navi beats Graf in Tokyo. In '94, with Navi's ranking having gone way down, Graf returns the favor.

'90 Virginia Slims - loses to Sabatini. Then, she goes on to dominate Sabi after Seles leaves. However, it's pretty much beyond dispute that Sabi was no longer the same player after Seles was stabbed as she was in the early '90s.

So, I'm not sure that Graf's early losses really say that she was in a 'slump.'


Navi was #5 at end of 92 but #3 at end of 93.
So maybe she was not that much worse at Tokyo 93 than at Tokyo 94?
But of course she was better as a 31/32 year-old multiple slam winner (6-times defending Wimby champ) in 88/89 than 5 years later, don't you think?
Well, Graf thrashed Navi 3 times at Wimby/USO in 88/89 .....

:worship:

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:17 PM
"Steffi's USO 92 loss was the most clear-cut ever on hard-courts.
In 94 Graf lost a tight 3-setter when visibly injured (back).
BTW, in 95/96 Graf beat Sanchez in 34 slam finals ........."

34 Grand Slam finals? Wow! Besides, I think you missed the point. I'm talking strictly about the big 2 fast hard court tournaments -- the VS and the U.S. Open, the point being that Seles would have beaten Graf if she played her in these from '90-'92

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:21 PM
Calimero377, of course Wimbledon is important, but basing Graf vs. Seles on Wimbledon is like basing Navi vs. Evert on Wimbledon. We're looking at who would win on a democratic surface. It looks like people are saying either:

Graf: 1. grass 2. fast hard courts/indoor carpet 3. clay 4. rebound ace
Seles: 1. Clay 2. rebound ace 3. fast hard courts/indoor carpet 4. grass

or:

they are reversing #3 and #4 for Graf and #1 and #2 for Seles

So, we should base the winner on basically an surface but grass.


We know that Graf was FAR better on fast courts (grass, indoors, US hard-courts - 7-0) and that Seles was marginally better on slow courts (clay, rebound-ace - 3-5). We should base the winner on that.

:wavey:

Helen Lawson
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:22 PM
Neither one of them won an Oscar like I did.

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:26 PM
"We know that Graf was FAR better on fast courts (grass, indoors, US hard-courts - 7-0) and that Seles was marginally better on slow courts (clay, rebound-ace - 3-5). We should base the winner on that."

The way I see it, Seles was better on 3 of the 4 Grand Slam surfaces. I base this fact on my belief that when both players were closest to their primes (late '90-early '93), Seles dominated all of the big tournaments on these surfaces. From what you've posted, my guess is that you think that Seles was closer to her prime post-stabbing than was Graf from late '90-early '93. I guess we'll have to leave it at that.

spencercarlos
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:31 PM
"We know that Graf was FAR better on fast courts (grass, indoors, US hard-courts - 7-0) and that Seles was marginally better on slow courts (clay, rebound-ace - 3-5). We should base the winner on that."

The way I see it, Seles was better on 3 of the 4 Grand Slam surfaces. I base this fact on my belief that when both players were closest to their primes (late '90-early '93), Seles dominated all of the big tournaments on these surfaces. From what you've posted, my guess is that you think that Seles was closer to her prime post-stabbing than was Graf from late '90-early '93. I guess we'll have to leave it at that.
Seles was better in 3/4 grand slam surfaces in 91/92.
Graf was better at least 3/4 grand slam surfaces during 88/89/93/95/96.
Ops i forgot probably 93/95/96 wont never ever count for you :rolleyes:

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:35 PM
"Seles was better in 3/4 grand slam surfaces in 91/92.
Graf was better at least 3/4 grand slam surfaces during 88/89/93/95/96.
Ops i forgot probably 93/95/96 wont never ever count for you"

93/95/96 count just fine for me, and I will grant you that Graf had the better career and more career accomplishments than Seles. In fact, I don't see how anyone can argue this.

But that's not the point of this poll. The point is to find out who would win if the 2 played when the 2 were playing closest to their bests (I'm assuming on a democratic surface). Toward that end, we're supposed to pick 1 critical match that the 2 played to illuminate this point. If you believe that Graf was closer to 100% at the '93 AO than Seles was at the '95 or '96 U.S. Open, I think you have to pick that as the critical match.

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:35 PM
"So Graf losing early to other players was Selesīs fault too."

I think you're missing my point. What I'm saying is that it was not out of the ordinary for Graf to lose to the players she lost to on the fast hard courts in '90-'93. She lost to McNeil and had trouble with her again. She lost to ASV and lost to her at the U.S. Open again. She lost to Navi, and had lost to her before and would lose to her again before Navi went down in the rankings and retired. She lost to Sabi, and Sabi wasn't the same player after Seles was stabbed. The only really surprising loss in this stretch was to Novotna.

So, really, my point is to dispute the claim that Graf slumped on these fast hard court 'big' tournaments from '90-'93. I think she played at basically the same level from '88-'96, and these results bear that out much more than I thought.


Graf reached 13 consecutive slam finals 87/90.
Then she missed 5 of the next 9 (in 90/92).
After that (post-92) she made 12 of 14 slam finals again.

Graf's main competitors in 87-96 were Navi, Sabby, Seles, ASV & Novotna.
She was 37-6 against them until Daddy 1990 Scandal, 32-21 from then on until The Stabbing, after that 27-4.
Navi was worse in 90/93 than in 87/89.
Seles was better in 90/93 than in 87/89, out in 93/95. And NOT A LOT worse in 95/96 than in 90/92 (eg. USO results).
Sabby was same level in 87/89 as in 90/92 but worse post-92.
ASV was better in 90/92 than in 87/89 but far better in 93/96.
Novotna was better in 90/92 than in 87/89 but far better in 93/96.
If we consider that Evert still played in 87/89 is is safe to say that Steffi's opposition was roughly the same in 87/89 & 93/95 as in 90/92.

Seles missing in 93/95?
Well, then Graf was 34-6 pre-daddy-scandal, 29-17 until stabbing and 20-4 afterwards.

GRAF WAS BETTER IN 87/89 AND 93/96 THAN IN 90/92.
THAT DOESN'T SAY THAT SELES DIDN'T DESERVE HER 90/92 WINS.
BUT SELES'S WINS IN 90/92 DON'T SAY THAT SHE WOULD HAVE WON THAT MUCH IN 93/96 AS WELL.

DO YOU GET THAT?


:lol:

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:41 PM
Calimero377, do you get that I'm not talking about Graf's overall play? I'm just talking about her play at the Virginia Slims and U.S. Opens. If you look back at the statistics I posted, they show that Graf's early losses in those tournaments were not out of the ordinary. In many cases it was just bad luck, like drawing Lori McNeil at the Virginia Slims.

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:43 PM
Itīs really ridiculous to say that Steffi 88 was the same LEVEL of Steffi 95-96, Steffi was a superior player, she had developed a better all court game, improved her volley, could hit backhand passing shots with much more regularity than she did in 88.
The same goes to the other players Arantxa improved a lot as well, same as Conchita, Mary Pierce, Jana, all of them improved. Not to mention the new names that came around, the Davenport, Hingises, and finally the Williamses.
Monica also improved a LOT, became a WAY better server, her net play and overhead became better too (she used to miss a lot there even on easy shots), added more power to her game, really the part that hurted Monica more was her fitness, something she fixed for RG 98 and never seemed interested or able to continue with that. That is not Grafīs fault either.


Steffi's BH passing shot never was better than in 88/89. Ask Martina ....
What didn't you like about Steffi's volley in 88/89?
OK, it is disputable whether 88/89 Steffi or 95/96 was better.
But I would vote for young Steffi. IMO she was even faster back then. Wimbledon 1988 final is still breath-taking (when seen on VCR) ....

:worship:

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:50 PM
As an objective, fair-minded, American-born citizen of the world, I have to take exception to this ridiculous comment. The rest of your reasoning seems balanced, if not a bit harsh at times.


Most Americans are "objective & fair-minded". But not all of course.
Many have a Evertilova/Seles/Williams bias (93-Seles was not yet US citizen then but lived there and was set to change nationality). So it is a "non-information" that "one" (American) commentator said something pro-Seles.
It is as if I said that "one" commentator said that Graf was the greatest-ever (they ALL say that ....... ).

;)

veera
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:54 PM
Steffi all the way :)

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:55 PM
"Most Americans are "objective & fair-minded". But not all of course.
Many have a Evertilova/Seles/Williams bias (93-Seles was not yet US citizen then but lived there and was set to change nationality). So it is a "non-information" that "one" (American) commentator said something pro-Seles.
It is as if I said that "one" commentator said that Graf was the greatest-ever (they ALL say that ....... )."

Really, the comment was pro-Seles and pro-Graf. Mary Carillo mentioned how many were saying that Graf had gotten worse, and how she thought that Seles was playing better now (AO '93) than she had been playing in '88. This was a nice compliment to both players, and it is only b/c of the stabbing that it has been perceived as a negative to Graf.

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:56 PM
"We know that Graf was FAR better on fast courts (grass, indoors, US hard-courts - 7-0) and that Seles was marginally better on slow courts (clay, rebound-ace - 3-5). We should base the winner on that."

The way I see it, Seles was better on 3 of the 4 Grand Slam surfaces. I base this fact on my belief that when both players were closest to their primes (late '90-early '93), Seles dominated all of the big tournaments on these surfaces. From what you've posted, my guess is that you think that Seles was closer to her prime post-stabbing than was Graf from late '90-early '93. I guess we'll have to leave it at that.


Graf in her prime "from late90/early93?
Because she was 21/23 years old?
OK, then Monica's prime was in 95/97 when Graf was already over the hill.
Oops, Graf won 2 slam finals against Moni in that time frame .....

:worship:

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 02:59 PM
"Graf in her prime "from late90/early93?
Because she was 21/23 years old?
OK, then Monica's prime was in 95/97 when Graf was already over the hill.
Oops, Graf won 2 slam finals against Moni in that time frame ....."

Again, this seems to be the crux of the dispute. I think Graf was closer to her prime in that '90-'93 period (maybe 90%) than Seles was post-stabbing (never more than 80%). I could see how either side could come to their conclusion.

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 03:00 PM
Seles was better in 3/4 grand slam surfaces in 91/92.
Graf was better at least 3/4 grand slam surfaces during 88/89/93/95/96.
...

Let's not count 93 (Seles stabbing).
But you forgot 90 & 99 ....

tennisiscool
Aug 17th, 2004, 03:00 PM
We never even got to see Monica's best tennis else we wouldn't be even having this discussion. Monica playing at approx. half her true potential gave Steffi fits so an improved Seles would kick her ass good.

I can't believe Monica is trailing by 15 votes. I am sure its the graf fanatics voting in duplicate :rolleyes:

bandabou
Aug 17th, 2004, 03:04 PM
THAT DOESN'T SAY THAT SELES DIDN'T DESERVE HER 90/92 WINS.

As long as you know that...

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 03:09 PM
Pkemi]Calimero377, do you get that I'm not talking about Graf's overall play? I'm just talking about her play at the Virginia Slims and U.S. Opens. If you look back at the statistics I posted, they show that Graf's early losses in those tournaments were not out of the ordinary. In many cases it was just bad luck, like drawing Lori McNeil at the Virginia Slims.[/QUOTE]


Graf best years were from 87 until 96.

She made 5 VSC finals, 87, 89, 93, 95, 96 & won them all.
She lost before finals in 88 (SEVERE flu), 90, 91, 92, & 94 (back injury, ONLY tournament played in 5 months between USO 94 and Paris-Bercy 95).
Three legitimate losses. In 90, 91 & 92. Looks like slump, doesn't it?

Graf made 8 USO finals in 87/96.
Lost only twice before finals. 91 & 92 .........

Hmmmm .....




:wavey:

alfajeffster
Aug 17th, 2004, 03:16 PM
Most Americans are "objective & fair-minded". But not all of course.
Many have a Evertilova/Seles/Williams bias (93-Seles was not yet US citizen then but lived there and was set to change nationality). So it is a "non-information" that "one" (American) commentator said something pro-Seles.
It is as if I said that "one" commentator said that Graf was the greatest-ever (they ALL say that ....... ).

;)
"she's certainly in the conversation"- Mary Carillo, the most dislexic, biased tennis journalist out there- in my humble American opinion.

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 03:16 PM
"Graf in her prime "from late90/early93?
Because she was 21/23 years old?
OK, then Monica's prime was in 95/97 when Graf was already over the hill.
Oops, Graf won 2 slam finals against Moni in that time frame ....."

Again, this seems to be the crux of the dispute. I think Graf was closer to her prime in that '90-'93 period (maybe 90%) than Seles was post-stabbing (never more than 80%). I could see how either side could come to their conclusion.

Seles was at least 90 % at USO 95 & 96 ....

But OK, let's assume you are right (Never admit anything, Calimero!).
Seles was 100 % in 91/93 (not 90, BTW. Seles had worse slam results than Steffi). Graf 90 %.
Nevertheless Graf was 3-2 head-to-head against Seles and only 1-2 in slams.
The most important of these slams was a 6-2, 6-1 Seles drubbing. the second most important was a 8-10-in-3rd loss against Seles. And the last one a tightly-fought 3-setter which was decided in the last 4 minutes ....
I'd like to have seen a 100% Steffi against a 100%Monica.

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 03:16 PM
"Graf best years were from 87 until 96.

She made 5 VSC finals, 87, 89, 93, 95, 96 & won them all.
She lost before finals in 88 (SEVERE flu), 90, 91, 92, & 94 (back injury, ONLY tournament played in 5 months between USO 94 and Paris-Bercy 95).
Three legitimate losses. In 90, 91 & 92. Looks like slump, doesn't it?

Graf made 8 USO finals in 87/96.
Lost only twice before finals. 91 & 92 ........."

Did you even read my post? What I said was that she just got bad draws those years.

So, what exactly is your argument? If I'm reading you correctly, I get this:

From late '90-'93, Graf was in a slump, with this especially being the case at the VSC and U.S. Opens. Yet, despite the fact that she was losing early in these tournaments and by her most lopsided scores ever, if she had somehow beaten the Sabis, AVSs, and Navis (by w/o), she would have then gone on to beat Seles, who ended up beating these players pretty easily.

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 03:18 PM
"I'd like to have seen a 100% Steffi against a 100% Monica."

I think that's one statement that we can finally agree on.

alfajeffster
Aug 17th, 2004, 03:19 PM
And the last one a tightly-fought 3-setter which was decided in the last 4 minutes ....
I'd like to have seen a 100% Steffi against a 100%Monica.
on decoturfII, not crushed rubber tires that produce the highest bouncing ball on the WTA hardcourt tour- by far! People always seem to forget this is why Monica had such a good record in Australia, well, until a more mobile player who covered the ball with a two-handed backhand and used a wider variety of spins and pace came along (Hingis). Can you imagine Monica's record in Australia had they stayed on grass at Kooyong?

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 03:21 PM
We never even got to see Monica's best tennis else we wouldn't be even having this discussion. Monica playing at approx. half her true potential gave Steffi fits so an improved Seles would kick her ass good.

I can't believe Monica is trailing by 15 votes. I am sure its the graf fanatics voting in duplicate :rolleyes:


Monica already admitted at end of 92 that her gaining weight troubled her.
She would have gotten fat anyway. It's the genes. Not her fault.
If you want to extrapolate how Seles would have played in 93/95 you should take the average between her accomplishments in 91/92 and 96/04 (same with her weight ..... ). Add to this that Graf obviously was better in 93/95 than in 90/92 (stats prove it) and you will get some more slams for Seles (4 perhaps) and perhaps 2 less for Graf.

And then you can start to ponder how many slams both would have won if it weren't for the 1990 Graf blackmail/sex/media scandal ......

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 03:22 PM
"on decoturfII, not crushed rubber tires that produce the highest bouncing ball on the WTA hardcourt tour- by far! People always seem to forget this is why Monica had such a good record in Australia, well, until a more mobile player who covered the ball with a two-handed backhand and used a wider variety of spins and pace came along (Hingis). Can you imagine Monica's record in Australia had they stayed on grass at Kooyong?"

Fair enough, but Seles was 5-0 in her last 5 'big' fast hard court tournaments with lower bouncing balls while Graf was never in the finals.

And I'm still not sure why people keep attacking Monica for her grass court play. She played much better than Navi in her early years at Wimbledon and equal to if not better than Graf.

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 03:23 PM
As long as you know that...

Hey, beating even a slumping Graf is not that easy.
Even Sabatini did this only 8 times ......

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 03:25 PM
"Monica already admitted at end of 92 that her gaining weight troubled her.
She would have gotten fat anyway. It's the genes. Not her fault.
If you want to extrapolate how Seles would have played in 93/95 you should take the average between her accomplishments in 91/92 and 96/04 (same with her weight ..... ). Add to this that Graf obviously was better in 93/95 than in 90/92 (stats prove it) and you will get some more slams for Seles (4 perhaps) and perhaps 2 less for Graf.

And then you can start to ponder how many slams both would have won if it weren't for the 1990 Graf blackmail/sex/media scandal ......"

-If Monica is not stabbed/injured, she likely never puts on the weight (at least to the same degree).

-1994 would have been a very good year for Monica (if not injured)

-You can't do 96/04 to judge 93/94. Monica won 7/9 of the last GS's. In her first one back in 95, she made the finals. Then, she won the AO. This indicates that she would have had a high level of success in 93/95.

Then again, maybe she gets injured at the '93 French. We'll just never know.

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 03:32 PM
...
So, what exactly is your argument? If I'm reading you correctly, I get this:

From late '90-'93, Graf was in a slump, with this especially being the case at the VSC and U.S. Opens. Yet, despite the fact that she was losing early in these tournaments and by her most lopsided scores ever, if she had somehow beaten the Sabis, AVSs, and Navis (by w/o), she would have then gone on to beat Seles, who ended up beating these players pretty easily.


Try this:

From spring '90 until end of 92 Graf was in a slump, with this being the case almost everywhere (AO, FO, USO, VSC). Because she was losing a lot in early rounds but NEVERTHELESS was 3-3 head-to-head against Seles, it is safe to say that IF she had NOT been in a slump - and therefore beaten lesser player before finals - in that time frame (as she did in 87/89 and 93/96) Seles would have got a beating as she got pre-90 and post-94.

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 03:33 PM
on decoturfII, not crushed rubber tires that produce the highest bouncing ball on the WTA hardcourt tour- by far! People always seem to forget this is why Monica had such a good record in Australia, well, until a more mobile player who covered the ball with a two-handed backhand and used a wider variety of spins and pace came along (Hingis). Can you imagine Monica's record in Australia had they stayed on grass at Kooyong?


Perhaps only 3 AOs?

;)

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 03:38 PM
"Try this:

From spring '90 until end of 92 Graf was in a slump, with this being the case almost everywhere (AO, FO, USO, VSC). Because she was losing a lot in early rounds but NEVERTHELESS was 3-3 head-to-head against Seles, it is safe to say that IF she had NOT been in a slump - and therefore beaten lesser player before finals - in that time frame (as she did in 87/89 and 93/96) Seles would have got a beating as she got pre-90 and post-94."

Or, as the '93 AO showed, Seles would have found a way to rise to the moment and beat Graf even if Graf raised her level of play. Look, Seles was stull learning to play on grass, which explains to an extent why Seles was thumped by Graf at Wimbledon. But besides that, I've already showed you the flaw of extrapolating from Seles' losses in lesser tournaments. She was around .500 against Sabi and Navi during this period, but thumped them in the majors and VS's. I think it's safe to say that if Graf were playing a bit better and making big finals, Seles would have beaten her during this period.

DA FOREHAND
Aug 17th, 2004, 03:43 PM
i agree duiz, steffi probably has the best career overall, but this is about the matchup, and also, although i never liked monica, in fact i never liked serena or venus either, but i still understand their greatness and am able to select a person solely on matchup disregarding personal opinion as much as possible
but you also picked Monica to beat Steffi on a hardcourt ie Us Open, and that has never happened, so what were you basing that on? :wavey: :tape:

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 03:48 PM
"but you also picked Monica to beat Steffi on a hardcourt ie Us Open, and that has never happened, so what were you basing that on?"

I'll tell you what I'm basing my opinion on -- Seles play at the U.S. Open in '91 and '92 and her play at the Virginia Slims from '90-'92.

I watched Graf in all of her finals at the U.S. Open. I think that Seles' level of play during the 2-3 years mentioned above was higher than Graf's level of play during her victories.

I'm particularly basing it on Seles at the '92 U.S. Open:

R128 Audra Keller (USA) W 6-1 6-0
R64 Lisa Raymond (USA) W 7-5 6-0
R32 Claudia Porwik (GER) W 6-4 6-0
R16 Gigi Fernandez (USA) W 6-1 6-2
QF Patricia Hy-Boulais (CAN) W 6-1 6-2
SF Mary Joe Fernandez (USA) W 6-3 6-2
F Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (ESP) W 6-3 6-3

What U.S. Open of Graf's would top this?

DA FOREHAND
Aug 17th, 2004, 03:54 PM
We never even got to see Monica's best tennis else we wouldn't be even having this discussion. Monica playing at approx. half her true potential gave Steffi fits so an improved Seles would kick her ass good.

I can't believe Monica is trailing by 15 votes. I am sure its the graf fanatics voting in duplicate :rolleyes:
An improved Seles would have produced an improved Graf. If Monica was ever to win THE GRAND SLAM..she needed to be able to take out both Navratilova and Graf..she accomplishe one out of two.

Steffi was one of the few players who could exploit the weak areas of Monica's game.

Graf never had a losing h2h to Monica. Monica has losing h2h against several of her peers.

My vote goes to Graf

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 03:55 PM
When was Graf ever as dominant at the U.S. Open as Seles in '92?:

'88: a 3 setter over Sabi in the final after getting a w/o from Evert in the SF?
'89: SF Gabriela Sabatini -- 3-6 6-4 6-2, F Martina Navratilova -- 3-6 7-5 6-1?
'93: QF Gabriela Sabatini -- 6-2 5-7 6-1, SF Manuela Maleeva-Fragniere -- 4-6 6-1 6-0, F Helena Sukova -- W 6-3 6-3
'95: 1st round Amanda Coetzer -- 6-7(1) 6-1 6-4, SF Gabriela Sabatini -- 6-4 7-6(5), F Monica Seles -- 7-6(6) 0-6 6-3

'96 might be the only option with a 7-5, 6-4 win over Seles, but that depends on what % you think Seles was at that point.

DA FOREHAND
Aug 17th, 2004, 03:57 PM
"but you also picked Monica to beat Steffi on a hardcourt ie Us Open, and that has never happened, so what were you basing that on?"

I'll tell you what I'm basing my opinion on -- Seles play at the U.S. Open in '91 and '92 and her play at the Virginia Slims from '90-'92.

I watched Graf in all of her finals at the U.S. Open. I think that Seles' level of play during the 2-3 years mentioned above was higher than Graf's level of play during her victories.

I'm particularly basing it on Seles at the '92 U.S. Open:

R128 Audra Keller (USA) W 6-1 6-0
R64 Lisa Raymond (USA) W 7-5 6-0
R32 Claudia Porwik (GER) W 6-4 6-0
R16 Gigi Fernandez (USA) W 6-1 6-2
QF Patricia Hy-Boulais (CAN) W 6-1 6-2
SF Mary Joe Fernandez (USA) W 6-3 6-2
F Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (ESP) W 6-3 6-3

What U.S. Open of Graf's would top this?

Monica also destroyed Navratilova on grass, before Graf decimated her in the final...It's about matchups. That's not such an impressive run to the title..you got anything else?

spencercarlos
Aug 17th, 2004, 03:58 PM
"but you also picked Monica to beat Steffi on a hardcourt ie Us Open, and that has never happened, so what were you basing that on?"

I'll tell you what I'm basing my opinion on -- Seles play at the U.S. Open in '91 and '92 and her play at the Virginia Slims from '90-'92.

I watched Graf in all of her finals at the U.S. Open. I think that Seles' level of play during the 2-3 years mentioned above was higher than Graf's level of play during her victories.

I'm particularly basing it on Seles at the '92 U.S. Open:

R128 Audra Keller (USA) W 6-1 6-0
R64 Lisa Raymond (USA) W 7-5 6-0
R32 Claudia Porwik (GER) W 6-4 6-0
R16 Gigi Fernandez (USA) W 6-1 6-2
QF Patricia Hy-Boulais (CAN) W 6-1 6-2
SF Mary Joe Fernandez (USA) W 6-3 6-2
F Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (ESP) W 6-3 6-3

What U.S. Open of Graf's would top this?
Graf 96 Usopen win tops it.
US Open USA
SL 26 Aug 1996 to 08 Sep 1996 Entry : DA Hard (O)
128 W Yayuk BASUKI (INA) 6-3 7-6
64 W Karin KSCHWENDT (GER) 6-2 6-1
32 W Natalia ZVEREVA (BLR) 6-4 6-2
16 W Anna KOURNIKOVA (RUS) 6-2 6-1
QF W Judith WIESNER (AUT) 7-5 6-3
SF W Martina HINGIS (SUI) 7-5 6-3
FR W Monica SELES (USA) 7-5 6-4

Or even Usopen 95
128 W Amanda COETZER (RSA) 6-7 6-1 6-4
64 W Rita GRANDE (ITA) 6-1 6-3
32 W Nathalie TAUZIAT (FRA) 6-3 6-3
16 W Chanda RUBIN (USA) 6-2 6-2
QF W Amy FRAZIER (USA) 6-2 6-3
SF W Gabriela SABATINI (ARG) 6-4 7-6
FR W Monica SELES (USA) 7-6 0-6 6-3

Very good wins over great players in 95.

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 04:01 PM
"Monica also destroyed Navratilova on grass, before Graf decimated her in the final...It's about matchups. That's not such an impressive run to the title..you got anything else?"

1. Monica did not destroy Navi on grass. It was 6-2, 6-7, 6-4. And why is it that when I brought up that Seles would have beaten Graf in the '91 U.S. Open final if Navi didn't beat her in the SF, all people wanted to talk about was how that SF took a lot out of Navi? Couldn't you say the same about Wimbledon '92?

2. Which U.S. Open run by Graf was more impressive?

alfajeffster
Aug 17th, 2004, 04:06 PM
Perhaps only 3 AOs?

;)I'll go ahead and say it, not one on grass. Her game is not suited at all for grass and never has been. She has always relied on the sureness of her anticipation coupled with a medium to high bounce. You don't get either of these factors on grass- quite the opposite. She did very well to make it to one final, and I would even go as far as to say that Martina Navratilova has played many, many better matches on grass than that Seles/Navratilova semi, and basically had several mental lapses during that match and Seles picked up on it (as Graf did more often on grass against Marti) and hit some great shots past a confused Martina standing in the middle of the court and not picking a side during that third set. Novotna, McNeil, Mandlikova or even an in-form Shriver would have moved to cover the line on a down-the-line approach with Seles running cross court scrambling to get underneath the ball to pass. Navratilova just stood there as if she were on novocaine. It's still painful to watch to this day.

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 04:07 PM
"Or even Usopen 95
128 W Amanda COETZER (RSA) 6-7 6-1 6-4
64 W Rita GRANDE (ITA) 6-1 6-3
32 W Nathalie TAUZIAT (FRA) 6-3 6-3
16 W Chanda RUBIN (USA) 6-2 6-2
QF W Amy FRAZIER (USA) 6-2 6-3
SF W Gabriela SABATINI (ARG) 6-4 7-6
FR W Monica SELES (USA) 7-6 0-6 6-3"

-Coetzer, a good, but not great player takes her to 6-4 in the 3rd
-Sabatini had fallen to #7, but played her pretty close
-Frazier wasn't even top 10
-It was Seles' 2nd tournament back


"Graf 96 Usopen win tops it.
US Open USA
SL 26 Aug 1996 to 08 Sep 1996 Entry : DA Hard (O)
128 W Yayuk BASUKI (INA) 6-3 7-6
64 W Karin KSCHWENDT (GER) 6-2 6-1
32 W Natalia ZVEREVA (BLR) 6-4 6-2
16 W Anna KOURNIKOVA (RUS) 6-2 6-1
QF W Judith WIESNER (AUT) 7-5 6-3
SF W Martina HINGIS (SUI) 7-5 6-3
FR W Monica SELES (USA) 7-5 6-4"

-Kournikova wasn't even close to ranked at this point
-Wiesner wasn't even top 10 and played her a bit tight.
-Hingis was around #6 yet and hadn't won a Slam yet
-Seles wasn't close to 100%

DA FOREHAND
Aug 17th, 2004, 04:08 PM
such an amazing debate, because it really is the focus of 90s tennis, the true battle of it, but we didn't have the powerhouses of the 80s battle in the other semi having even close to as intense a debate, do you think its because we view stuff in the more recent past as more important? or do you think that people on wtaworld are too young to know the wonders of the martina/chris rivalry? also, on the stabbing issue, i still believe steffi would have figured monica out and then gone on to win many (although not all) the majors she did from 93-96, however, i would still argue that thinking of peak value 88 steffi and 92 monica are the peaks, and secondly, i'm also going by the 95 US Open guide format, using quality matchup/critical matchup, etc, and you HAVE to pick the supposed "greatest match of all time" don't you?!?! monica won it...
I think if you want to be fair to Monica you should Pick Steffi's 89(three slams) rather than the Grand Slam year(88) Monica never came close to winning the grand slam, or going a season undefeated. In fact she never ended a full season with fewer than five losses(looses)

spencercarlos
Aug 17th, 2004, 04:08 PM
"Monica also destroyed Navratilova on grass, before Graf decimated her in the final...It's about matchups. That's not such an impressive run to the title..you got anything else?"

1. Monica did not destroy Navi on grass. It was 6-2, 6-7, 6-4. And why is it that when I brought up that Seles would have beaten Graf in the '91 U.S. Open final if Navi didn't beat her in the SF, all people wanted to talk about was how that SF took a lot out of Navi? Couldn't you say the same about Wimbledon '92?

2. Which U.S. Open run by Graf was more impressive?
Usopen 95..
Defeating Amanda who had just beaten her couple off weeks earlier. Getting throught Tauziat and Rubin who were improving on their own, especially Rubin. Then beating Gaby :sad: and then overcoming Seles 6-3 in the third in a great great final, has to be the best run of a slam for Graf at the Usopen.

spencercarlos
Aug 17th, 2004, 04:10 PM
"but you also picked Monica to beat Steffi on a hardcourt ie Us Open, and that has never happened, so what were you basing that on?"

I'll tell you what I'm basing my opinion on -- Seles play at the U.S. Open in '91 and '92 and her play at the Virginia Slims from '90-'92.

I watched Graf in all of her finals at the U.S. Open. I think that Seles' level of play during the 2-3 years mentioned above was higher than Graf's level of play during her victories.

I'm particularly basing it on Seles at the '92 U.S. Open:

R128 Audra Keller (USA) W 6-1 6-0
R64 Lisa Raymond (USA) W 7-5 6-0
R32 Claudia Porwik (GER) W 6-4 6-0
R16 Gigi Fernandez (USA) W 6-1 6-2
QF Patricia Hy-Boulais (CAN) W 6-1 6-2
SF Mary Joe Fernandez (USA) W 6-3 6-2
F Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (ESP) W 6-3 6-3

What U.S. Open of Graf's would top this?
Then tell me how much top ten players were in Seles 92 Usopen run? :rolleyes:
Lisa, Keller, Fernandez, Powik, Hy, all of them not even ranked in the top 50 at that time.

DA FOREHAND
Aug 17th, 2004, 04:12 PM
"Or even Usopen 95
128 W Amanda COETZER (RSA) 6-7 6-1 6-4
64 W Rita GRANDE (ITA) 6-1 6-3
32 W Nathalie TAUZIAT (FRA) 6-3 6-3
16 W Chanda RUBIN (USA) 6-2 6-2
QF W Amy FRAZIER (USA) 6-2 6-3
SF W Gabriela SABATINI (ARG) 6-4 7-6
FR W Monica SELES (USA) 7-6 0-6 6-3"

-Coetzer, a good, but not great player takes her to 6-4 in the 3rd
-Sabatini had fallen to #7, but played her pretty close
-Frazier wasn't even top 10
-It was Seles' 2nd tournament back


"Graf 96 Usopen win tops it.
US Open USA
SL 26 Aug 1996 to 08 Sep 1996 Entry : DA Hard (O)
128 W Yayuk BASUKI (INA) 6-3 7-6
64 W Karin KSCHWENDT (GER) 6-2 6-1
32 W Natalia ZVEREVA (BLR) 6-4 6-2
16 W Anna KOURNIKOVA (RUS) 6-2 6-1
QF W Judith WIESNER (AUT) 7-5 6-3
SF W Martina HINGIS (SUI) 7-5 6-3
FR W Monica SELES (USA) 7-5 6-4"

-Kournikova wasn't even close to ranked at this point
-Wiesner wasn't even top 10 and played her a bit tight.
-Hingis was around #6 yet and hadn't won a Slam yet
-Seles wasn't close to 100%

I would pick apart your Seles Us Open list, but don't recognize three players, and two others are doubles specialist. :tape:

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 04:18 PM
"Usopen 95..
Defeating Amanda who had just beaten her couple off weeks earlier. Getting throught Tauziat and Rubin who were improving on their own, especially Rubin. Then beating Gaby and then overcoming Seles 6-3 in the third in a great great final, has to be the best run of a slam for Graf at the Usopen."

Or, putting it another way -- winning 6-4 in the 3rd against someone who was 8-6 at the U.S. Open through '94 (Coetzer), beating someone who was 12-9 at the U.S. Open through '94 (Tauziat, who didn't break through until about '97), beating someone who was 6-5 at the U.S. Open through '94 (Rubin, although improving), and beating Gabi and Seles in 2 tight matches when both were well past their primes. I'll admit that it was a decent lineup of players, but Graf didn't exactly blow them away.

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 04:19 PM
"but you also picked Monica to beat Steffi on a hardcourt ie Us Open, and that has never happened, so what were you basing that on?"

I'll tell you what I'm basing my opinion on -- Seles play at the U.S. Open in '91 and '92 and her play at the Virginia Slims from '90-'92.

I watched Graf in all of her finals at the U.S. Open. I think that Seles' level of play during the 2-3 years mentioned above was higher than Graf's level of play during her victories.

I'm particularly basing it on Seles at the '92 U.S. Open:

R128 Audra Keller (USA) W 6-1 6-0
R64 Lisa Raymond (USA) W 7-5 6-0
R32 Claudia Porwik (GER) W 6-4 6-0
R16 Gigi Fernandez (USA) W 6-1 6-2
QF Patricia Hy-Boulais (CAN) W 6-1 6-2
SF Mary Joe Fernandez (USA) W 6-3 6-2
F Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (ESP) W 6-3 6-3

What U.S. Open of Graf's would top this?

Only 27 game lost. Not bad.
But Keller, Raymond & Porwik all were below #80 in the rankings.
G. Fernandez and P. Hy were at # 31 and #36 respectively.
Sele played only 2 top-thirty players!

What about Graf?

1)29 games lost at AO 88.
Beat #'s 5 (Mandlikova), 10 (Kohde) and 3 (Evert).
Plus #17 Lindquist. Tougher opposition than Seles at USO 92.

2) Only 20 games lost at FO 88.
Beat #'s 24 (Tauziat), 5 (Sabby) and 15 (Zvereva).
Plus #38 Fulco.
Easy draw. Comparable to Seles at USO 92. But - lost 7 games less .....

3) 27 games lost at Wim 88.
Beat #'s 16 (MJ Fernandez) 3 (Shriver) and 2 (Navratilova) ....

4) Only 23 games lost at USO 88.
K. Maleeva and Sabatini ...

5) Only 24 games lost at AO 89.
Beat #'s 12 (Kohde), 7 (Sukova) and 4 (Sabatini).


BTW, what is Monica's second most convincing run to the title?

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 04:20 PM
"Then tell me how much top ten players were in Seles 92 Usopen run?
Lisa, Keller, Fernandez, Powik, Hy, all of them not even ranked in the top 50 at that time."

I'll grant you that only 2 of the 7 were top 10, just as with Graf. The difference is that Seles won all of her matches easily while Graf struggled.

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 04:26 PM
Calimero377, I'm not sure why you are mentioning other GS's when the discussion was about the U.S. Open.

And let's look at the U.S. Open you listed. Sure, Graf lost very few games, but this was b/c she beat Evert in a w/o in the SF. Then, she beat #4 Sabi in 3 sets. Meanwhile, Seles beat #4 ASV 6-3, 6-3. Much more impressive for Seles.

And MJF was well before her prime in '92? Let's see, she finished '92 at #6. In '93, she was #7, even w/out Seles. In '94, she was injured. In '95, she was #8. In '96, not top 10. In '97, #10. Actually, '92 was her peak.

And ASV was well before her prime in '92? She was #4? Maybe she wasn't as good as she would get, but she was still very solid.

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 04:34 PM
Calimero377, I'm not sure why you are mentioning other GS's when the discussion was about the U.S. Open.

And let's look at the U.S. Open you listed. Sure, Graf lost very few games, but this was b/c she beat Evert in a w/o in the SF. Then, she beat #4 Sabi in 3 sets. Meanwhile, Seles beat #4 ASV 6-3, 6-3. Much more impressive for Seles. ...


ASV was #5 in the rankings and seeded accordingly ....


:wavey:

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 04:37 PM
"ASV was #5 in the rankings and seeded accordingly ...."

Okay, so she was #5 and improving, and Sabi was #4 and getting worse. I still think my point stands that Monica's 6-3, 6-3 win over ASV was more impressive than Graf's 3 setter over Sabi, particularly when Graf got a w/o in the SF.

irma
Aug 17th, 2004, 04:49 PM
"ASV was #5 in the rankings and seeded accordingly ...."

Okay, so she was #5 and improving, and Sabi was #4 and getting worse. I still think my point stands that Monica's 6-3, 6-3 win over ASV was more impressive than Graf's 3 setter over Sabi, particularly when Graf got a w/o in the SF.I hate making comparings between matches and of course winning a slam without losing a set is always very impressive, but I think you underestimate the immense pressure Steffi was under in this final 88. If she had lost she had gotten the whole press over her as a the ultimate loser. She said herself that she had nightmares about this during this match

as said this is not if it was more impressive as monica's win or not

only that what Steffi did was amazing that day in the final too!

DA FOREHAND
Aug 17th, 2004, 04:55 PM
"ASV was #5 in the rankings and seeded accordingly ...."

Okay, so she was #5 and improving, and Sabi was #4 and getting worse. I still think my point stands that Monica's 6-3, 6-3 win over ASV was more impressive than Graf's 3 setter over Sabi, particularly when Graf got a w/o in the SF.

Ok let's put this to bed and say you're right...So What? That still doesn't change the fast court h2h between GRaf and Seles. :wavey:

Steffi won The Grand Slam and a 4 consecutive Grand Slams
Monica didn't.

Steffi has longer consecutive match win streaks
Monica's hair was streaked.

Steffi owns seven Wimbledon Plates
Monica always cleans her plate

Steffi fed Martina Hingis bagels
Hingis fed Monica bagels

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 04:59 PM
"Ok let's put this to bed and say you're right...So What?"

So what? This is the point of the entire thread. Who would win in a match-up of the 2 at their best on a democratic surface. If Seles in '92 beats Graf in '88 at the U.S. Open, then Seles should win the poll.

Again, if you want to ask who accompished more in their career, the answer is clearly Graf. If you ask who won the head-to-head, it's Graf. But that's not what is being asked.

vutt
Aug 17th, 2004, 05:00 PM
Steffi owns seven Wimbledon Plates
Monica always cleans her plate

Yeah! :worship::worship:

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 05:01 PM
"ASV was #5 in the rankings and seeded accordingly ...."

Okay, so she was #5 and improving, and Sabi was #4 and getting worse. I still think my point stands that Monica's 6-3, 6-3 win over ASV was more impressive than Graf's 3 setter over Sabi, particularly when Graf got a w/o in the SF.


IMO, a 6-2, 6-0 against a #2 ASV (AO 94) or a 6-2, 6-1 against a #1 Seles (Wim 92) are even more impressive.
And a 6-2, 6-1 against a #3 Shriver (wim 88, semis)?
Or a 6-3, 6-0 against a #4 Sabatini (AO 89, semis)?
A 6-3, 6-3 against a #2 Sabby (Wim 92) isn't bad either ...
And a 6-3, 6-1 against a #4 Majoli plus a 6-3, 6-1 against a #2 Martinez (FO 96) .......


:worship: :worship: :worship:

Kart
Aug 17th, 2004, 05:04 PM
These debates would be fun if people didn't get so defensive :yawn:.

DA FOREHAND
Aug 17th, 2004, 05:07 PM
"Ok let's put this to bed and say you're right...So What?"

So what? This is the point of the entire thread. Who would win in a match-up of the 2 at their best on a democratic surface. If Seles in '92 beats Graf in '88 at the U.S. Open, then Seles should win the poll.

Again, if you want to ask who accompished more in their career, the answer is clearly Graf. If you ask who won the head-to-head, it's Graf. But that's not what is being asked.
it's about match-ups

The matched up 15 times and Steffi won ten of those.

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 05:12 PM
"IMO, a 6-2, 6-0 against a #2 ASV (AO 94) or a 6-2, 6-1 against a #1 Seles (Wim 92) are even more impressive.
And a 6-2, 6-1 against a #3 Shriver (wim 88, semis)?
Or a 6-3, 6-0 against a #4 Sabatini (AO 89, semis)?
A 6-3, 6-3 against a #2 Sabby (Wim 92) isn't bad either ...
And a 6-3, 6-1 against a #4 Majoli plus a 6-3, 6-1 against a #2 Martinez (FO 96) ......."

You pick the surface, and I'll pick a match/tournament to compare to what you posted. I think that anything besides grass could be considered democratic for Seles vs. Graf. Right now, I think Seles '92 U.S. Open > Graf '88 U.S. Open. Tell me which FO and AO you want to use for Steffi.

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 05:13 PM
"it's about match-ups

The matched up 15 times and Steffi won ten of those."

And when they were both closest to their primes, Seles was 4-3 and would have been something like 10-4 if not for Graf's poor play.

steffilover
Aug 17th, 2004, 05:23 PM
How nice to see order has been restored in the poll.:bounce:
much as i admired monica, steffi was always going to be, and eventually proved to be, just too good for her.:wavey:

Bristol
Aug 17th, 2004, 05:45 PM
I think the whole concept of this thread was a brilliant idea, and sometimes has had some really good discussions. However most people on here are idiots and if any tennis expert were to look on here i'm sure they'd be embarrassed for you. Some people who call themselves fans on here are truely obsessive over 1 player and definitley are not fans of the womens game/ womens tennis in general.
As your complete disrespect and lack of knowledge of certain players and of the game in general is clearly evident. Your an embarrasment, you won't probably even realise i'm referring to you.
It's obvious that in Seles and Graf as in this match up we have 2 of the best players ever on the womens game a statement made by several players such as Navaratilova and Evert. Who are some of you to completely disregard that you are a joke.
I'm not going to vote on this as it's turned into people trying to get as many votes as possible just because they like the player without thinking of anything to do with the game this whole website is turning into a joke, yeh it's good to have fun but the majority of you guys on here are freaks!

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 05:50 PM
"It's obvious that in Seles and Graf as in this match up we have 2 of the best players ever on the womens game a statement made by several players such as Navaratilova and Evert. Who are some of you to completely disregard that you are a joke."

Bristol, who exactly has done this. Seles supporters (including myself) see to acknowledge that Graf was one of the best players along with Court, Evert, Navratilova, and Seles. We just think that what happened in late '90 to early '93 would have continued, with Seles continuing to stay at #1 and pile at the Slams.

And it seems to me as if the Graf supporters acknowledge that Seles is one of the all time greats. They just think that Graf was in a bit of a slump during early '90 to early '93 and that Graf would have re-asserted her dominance after this, with Seles still winning Slams but being #2.

spencercarlos
Aug 17th, 2004, 06:46 PM
"ASV was #5 in the rankings and seeded accordingly ...."

Okay, so she was #5 and improving, and Sabi was #4 and getting worse. I still think my point stands that Monica's 6-3, 6-3 win over ASV was more impressive than Graf's 3 setter over Sabi, particularly when Graf got a w/o in the SF.
Yeah yeah, a 6-3 6-3 win over the number 5th player in the world to win the third slam of the year tops a 6-3 3-6 6-1 win over the fifth player in the world to get the GRAND SLAM, sure you got it :rolleyes: .
Forgot to say Gaby of 88 was 5th and getting better, not worse as you mention.

selking
Aug 17th, 2004, 06:53 PM
well i hpe the people with multiple handels are done voting

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 06:55 PM
"Yeah yeah, a 6-3 6-3 win over the number 5th player in the world to win the third slam of the year tops a 6-3 3-6 6-1 win over the fifth player in the world to get the GRAND SLAM, sure you got it .
Forgot to say Gaby of 88 was 5th and getting better, not worse as you mention."

-My mistake on Gabi. She went from #3 in '89. And for the record, ASV went to #2 in '94.

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 07:07 PM
These debates would be fun if people didn't get so defensive :yawn:.


Yes, better offensive than defensive!

:lol:

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 07:14 PM
"IMO, a 6-2, 6-0 against a #2 ASV (AO 94) or a 6-2, 6-1 against a #1 Seles (Wim 92) are even more impressive.
And a 6-2, 6-1 against a #3 Shriver (wim 88, semis)?
Or a 6-3, 6-0 against a #4 Sabatini (AO 89, semis)?
A 6-3, 6-3 against a #2 Sabby (Wim 92) isn't bad either ...
And a 6-3, 6-1 against a #4 Majoli plus a 6-3, 6-1 against a #2 Martinez (FO 96) ......."

You pick the surface, and I'll pick a match/tournament to compare to what you posted. I think that anything besides grass could be considered democratic for Seles vs. Graf. Right now, I think Seles '92 U.S. Open > Graf '88 U.S. Open. Tell me which FO and AO you want to use for Steffi.


Graf AO 94 > Seles AO 93
Graf FO 87, 88, 95 > Seles FO 92
Graf Wim 88, 89, 92, 96 > Seles Wim 92
Graf USO 89, 96 > Seles USO 92, 95

AO & FO are debatable of course.
Wim & USO are not.

alfajeffster
Aug 17th, 2004, 07:20 PM
It begs the question- if Graf and Seles agreed to play an exhibition tomorrow- who do you think would win? It's already a given that the promoters would have a field day and no one on the WTA board would give a rat's you know what about the olympics... hmm?

DA FOREHAND
Aug 17th, 2004, 07:23 PM
STEFFI GRAF...

Who's probably still in better shape(after two kids), and still works out w/Andre Agassi.

selking
Aug 17th, 2004, 07:24 PM
yea right monica would woop her ass. Steffis old

Al_Neri
Aug 17th, 2004, 07:29 PM
Would it not be more interesting if they all mud wrestled?

alfajeffster
Aug 17th, 2004, 07:30 PM
Would it not be more interesting if they all mud wrestled?
:lol:

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 07:30 PM
"it's about match-ups

The matched up 15 times and Steffi won ten of those."

And when they were both closest to their primes, Seles was 4-3 and would have been something like 10-4 if not for Graf's poor play.



Graf 90/winter93 = slump = losing often before finals = 3-4 head2head vs. Seles

IF (Graf 90/winter93) NOT slump = NOT losing often before finals = BETTER head2head vs. Seles


IF Graf had been that good that she would have reached important finals on a regular basis (as in 87/89 and 93/96), meaning IF she had been better, then she most certainly would have been better against Seles as well. So Seles narrow lead in head-to-head would have been reversed and that in a very clear-cut way (comparable to pre-90 and post-94).

BTW, you ONLY get a head-to-head in Seles's favour when you start counting in 90 and stop it at time of stabbing.
But if you count 1990 why not 1989?
If you exclude 1989 why not 1990?
A fair time frame is from the date Seles reached #1 spot until the stabbing. Seles "dominated" women's tennis in 91/92/winter93, not in 90 (Graf was clearly better in 90).
Then Graf is ahead 3-2 .....
And in the single MOST important of all their matches Seles was clobbered.

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 07:34 PM
....

And it seems to me as if the Graf supporters acknowledge that Seles is one of the all time greats. They just think that Graf was in a bit of a slump during early '90 to early '93 and that Graf would have re-asserted her dominance after this, with Seles still winning Slams but being #2.


Exactly .....

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 07:35 PM
"Graf AO 94 > Seles AO 93"

Seles beating Sabatini 6-1, 6-2 in the SF and then Graf in the F > Graf beating Kimiko Date 6-3, 6-3 in the SF and the ASV 6-0, 6-2 in the F. I don't even see how this can be argued.

"Graf FO 87, 88, 95 > Seles FO 92"

Come one, pick one best FO for Graf. Okay, I'll do it for you. '87 was 8-6 in 3rd vs. Navratilova after 7-5 in the 3rd over Sabatini. '88 was Zvereva in the F. '95 was a 3 setter against ASV in the F after a 3 setter in the SF against Martinez. I think we throw out '88 b/c Zvereva was not a worthy opponent.

Let's say you pick '95. I'll pick '91 A 3 setter over Martinez in the SF for Graf. An easy win over Sabatini (6-4, 6-1) in the SF for Seles. A 3 setter over ASV in the F for Graf. An easy win over ASV (6-3, 6-4) in the F for Seles. Sabatini is better than Martinez, and '95 ASV is better than '91 ASV Seles wins.

"Graf Wim 88, 89, 92, 96 > Seles Wim 92"

No argument here.

"Graf USO 89, 96 > Seles USO 92, 95"

Again, pick a year. I'll go ahead and pick '89 for you b/c nobody is really sure what % Seles was in '96. A tough 3 setter over Sabatini in the SF for Graf. An easy win over MJ Fernandez for Seles (6-3, 6-2) for Seles. A tough 3 setter against Navratilova in the F for Graf. An easy win over ASV for Seles (6-3, 6-3). Sabatini is better than MJ Fernandez. Navratilova is better than ASV. But Seles dominated, while Graf slipped by. Seles wins.

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 07:37 PM
Yeah yeah, a 6-3 6-3 win over the number 5th player in the world to win the third slam of the year tops a 6-3 3-6 6-1 win over the fifth player in the world to get the GRAND SLAM, sure you got it :rolleyes: .
Forgot to say Gaby of 88 was 5th and getting better, not worse as you mention.


Sabby was #4 - and not getting better.
She held her level in 89/92 and declined thereafter.

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 07:39 PM
well i hpe the people with multiple handels are done voting


It helps to be in charge of large computer network with multiple working stations .....

;)

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 07:40 PM
"Graf 90/winter93 = slump = losing often before finals = 3-4 head2head vs. Seles

IF (Graf 90/winter93) NOT slump = NOT losing often before finals = BETTER head2head vs. Seles


IF Graf had been that good that she would have reached important finals on a regular basis (as in 87/89 and 93/96), meaning IF she had been better, then she most certainly would have been better against Seles as well. So Seles narrow lead in head-to-head would have been reversed and that in a very clear-cut way (comparable to pre-90 and post-94).

BTW, you ONLY get a head-to-head in Seles's favour when you start counting in 90 and stop it at time of stabbing.
But if you count 1990 why not 1989?
If you exclude 1989 why not 1990?
A fair time frame is from the date Seles reached #1 spot until the stabbing. Seles "dominated" women's tennis in 91/92/winter93, not in 90 (Graf was clearly better in 90).
Then Graf is ahead 3-2 .....
And in the single MOST important of all their matches Seles was clobbered."

Look, all of these points are valid, but again consider the Navi/Sabi comparisons. During this same stretch, Seles was about .500 against these 2 in non-GS/VS tournaments. But when she played them in the GS/VS tournaments (with only one being on grass), Seles absolutely dominated them. Now, do we know what happens if Graf makes some of these AO, US Open, French Open, VS finals she missed? No. Is there a good chance that Seles beats her if she did? Yes.

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 07:41 PM
Would it not be more interesting if they all mud wrestled?


No.
Monica would lose that one too ......

spencercarlos
Aug 17th, 2004, 07:41 PM
Sabby was #4 - and not getting better.
She held her level in 89/92 and declined thereafter.
At the time Usopen 88 was being played Gaby was number 5... in fact 5th seeded too at the Usopen. Did she got better? lets see. She reached 2 more slam finals winning one of them. She got better. She declined her level after Rome 1992 ok i agree.

alfajeffster
Aug 17th, 2004, 07:41 PM
God this is so old... Goddess remove me from this tedium...

spencercarlos
Aug 17th, 2004, 07:44 PM
"Graf 90/winter93 = slump = losing often before finals = 3-4 head2head vs. Seles

IF (Graf 90/winter93) NOT slump = NOT losing often before finals = BETTER head2head vs. Seles


IF Graf had been that good that she would have reached important finals on a regular basis (as in 87/89 and 93/96), meaning IF she had been better, then she most certainly would have been better against Seles as well. So Seles narrow lead in head-to-head would have been reversed and that in a very clear-cut way (comparable to pre-90 and post-94).

BTW, you ONLY get a head-to-head in Seles's favour when you start counting in 90 and stop it at time of stabbing.
But if you count 1990 why not 1989?
If you exclude 1989 why not 1990?
A fair time frame is from the date Seles reached #1 spot until the stabbing. Seles "dominated" women's tennis in 91/92/winter93, not in 90 (Graf was clearly better in 90).
Then Graf is ahead 3-2 .....
And in the single MOST important of all their matches Seles was clobbered."

Look, all of these points are valid, but again consider the Navi/Sabi comparisons. During this same stretch, Seles was about .500 against these 2 in non-GS/VS tournaments. But when she played them in the GS/VS tournaments (with only one being on grass), Seles absolutely dominated them. Now, do we know what happens if Graf makes some of these AO, US Open, French Open, VS finals she missed? No. Is there a good chance that Seles beats her if she did? Yes.
But Graf was not able to reach those finals, whatīs the point? You want to add victories for Seles against Graf, at the times that other players were beating Steffi, not Monica. :rolleyes:

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 07:51 PM
"But Graf was not able to reach those finals, whatīs the point? You want to add victories for Seles against Graf, at the times that other players were beating Steffi, not Monica."

My point is this -- people always want to hold it against Monica that, depending on how you want to define it, Monica was either just under .500, .500, or just over .500 against Graf. What they miss is that besides Seles' wins over Graf, Seles only played Graf 3 times during this stretch. Once was on Graf's best and Monica's worst surface. A second was in a minor tournament in Graf's home country. The third was just a really nice win by Graf in San Antonio in a small hard court tournament. Monica never had a chance to dominate Graf during this period b/c Graf kept loisng early in the bigger tournaments. Assume Navi's level declined. Assume Sabi declined or didn't improve. Etc., etc. This being the case, Graf likely makes the bigger finals, plays Seles several times, and loses to her.

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 08:08 PM
"Graf AO 94 > Seles AO 93"

Seles beating Sabatini 6-1, 6-2 in the SF and then Graf in the F > Graf beating Kimiko Date 6-3, 6-3 in the SF and the ASV 6-0, 6-2 in the F. I don't even see how this can be argued. ....


Sabby in winter 93 was worse than 4 years earlier. Nevertheless the Argentinian lost to Graf at AO 89 with 3-6, 0-6 ....

Seles beat #2 Graf in last 4 minutes in AO 93 final (Was 86-78 on points-played).

Graf 94 would have beaten Graf 93.
Proof?
Graf beat ASV 7-5, 6-4 at AO 93 but 6-2, 6-0 at AO 93. Plus: Graf lost to Navi in Tokyo 93 - with almost the SAME results as the AO 93 final! - but beat her easily in Tokyo 94.



.....

Come one, pick one best FO for Graf. Okay, I'll do it for you. '87 was 8-6 in 3rd vs. Navratilova after 7-5 in the 3rd over Sabatini. '88 was Zvereva in the F. '95 was a 3 setter against ASV in the F after a 3 setter in the SF against Martinez. I think we throw out '88 b/c Zvereva was not a worthy opponent.

Let's say you pick '95. I'll pick '91 A 3 setter over Martinez in the SF for Graf. An easy win over Sabatini (6-4, 6-1) in the SF for Seles. A 3 setter over ASV in the F for Graf. An easy win over ASV (6-3, 6-4) in the F for Seles. Sabatini is better than Martinez, and '95 ASV is better than '91 ASV Seles wins. ...


Why not 88?
Zvereva had beaten Navratilova in 4th round! Martina had been in the FO finals in 85, 86, 87. No other player would have thrashed Zvereva on the final day as Steffi did. Why can't you simply give credit where credit is due?
Steffi had one of her perfect days. Comparable to Wimbledon 92 or AO 94.
Of course Seles & ASV were better than Natasha. So they made 3 & 2 games respectively. Zvereva made not a single one.

FO 95?
ASV lost the 3rd with 0-6. ASV is a 6-times FO finalist (Seles has 4 finals ... ).

Even FO 99 comes to mind.
Hingis was a very good clay courter. Had Graf not destroyed her career on that fateful June Saturday she would have won FOs. Hingis had Seles's number; she was the best player in those years. But nevertheless Graf completely outplayed her that day (107-93 on points played).


.....

"Graf Wim 88, 89, 92, 96 > Seles Wim 92"

No argument here. ....


Well, Wimbledon is only the single most important tournament in the world of tennis ......


.....

"Graf USO 89, 96 > Seles USO 92, 95"

Again, pick a year. I'll go ahead and pick '89 for you b/c nobody is really sure what % Seles was in '96. A tough 3 setter over Sabatini in the SF for Graf. An easy win over MJ Fernandez for Seles (6-3, 6-2) for Seles. A tough 3 setter against Navratilova in the F for Graf. An easy win over ASV for Seles (6-3, 6-3). Sabatini is better than MJ Fernandez. Navratilova is better than ASV. But Seles dominated, while Graf slipped by. Seles wins.


Let's pick 96.
Seles had no chance against Graf. The result (5-7, 4-6) is deceptive - Seles lost 66-79 on points-played (compare: FO 90 was 7-6, 6-4 in Seles's favour but only 74-73 on points; or: Davenport-Graf, Wim 99, 6-4, 7-5 but only 68-64 on points).
Seles played her best USO in 96. She never lost less games in first 6 rounds (only 18). Many, many experts (esp. in USA ... :lol: ) thought she would win. Well, Graf was in the finals. As in 95. Unlike 91 & 92 .......
Great difference. Obviously.
:lol:

DA FOREHAND
Aug 17th, 2004, 08:10 PM
"But Graf was not able to reach those finals, whatīs the point? You want to add victories for Seles against Graf, at the times that other players were beating Steffi, not Monica."

My point is this -- people always want to hold it against Monica that, depending on how you want to define it, Monica was either just under .500, .500, or just over .500 against Graf. What they miss is that besides Seles' wins over Graf, Seles only played Graf 3 times during this stretch. Once was on Graf's best and Monica's worst surface. A second was in a minor tournament in Graf's home country. The third was just a really nice win by Graf in San Antonio in a small hard court tournament. Monica never had a chance to dominate Graf during this period b/c Graf kept loisng early in the bigger tournaments. Assume Navi's level declined. Assume Sabi declined or didn't improve. Etc., etc. This being the case, Graf likely makes the bigger finals, plays Seles several times, and loses to her.
Or she never dominated Steffi, because she couldn't.

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 08:15 PM
Calimero377, you raise some good points, and I guess at this point, we're both going to have to end up agreeing to disagree. It's just too bad that things didn't work out so that we could have seen what would have happened post '93 AO.

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 08:22 PM
"Graf 90/winter93 = slump = losing often before finals = 3-4 head2head vs. Seles

IF (Graf 90/winter93) NOT slump = NOT losing often before finals = BETTER head2head vs. Seles


IF Graf had been that good that she would have reached important finals on a regular basis (as in 87/89 and 93/96), meaning IF she had been better, then she most certainly would have been better against Seles as well. So Seles narrow lead in head-to-head would have been reversed and that in a very clear-cut way (comparable to pre-90 and post-94).

BTW, you ONLY get a head-to-head in Seles's favour when you start counting in 90 and stop it at time of stabbing.
But if you count 1990 why not 1989?
If you exclude 1989 why not 1990?
A fair time frame is from the date Seles reached #1 spot until the stabbing. Seles "dominated" women's tennis in 91/92/winter93, not in 90 (Graf was clearly better in 90).
Then Graf is ahead 3-2 .....
And in the single MOST important of all their matches Seles was clobbered."

Look, all of these points are valid, but again consider the Navi/Sabi comparisons. During this same stretch, Seles was about .500 against these 2 in non-GS/VS tournaments. But when she played them in the GS/VS tournaments (with only one being on grass), Seles absolutely dominated them. Now, do we know what happens if Graf makes some of these AO, US Open, French Open, VS finals she missed? No. Is there a good chance that Seles beats her if she did? Yes.

Even slumping Graf won 1 of 3 slam finals when Seles was #1.
2-1 in slam finals matches in Seles's favour.
But 38-39 on games played.
Or 255-260 on points played.
And AO & FO vs. Wimbledon.
Could it have been narrower?
If it is that narrow, then, only then perhaps Graf's two 91 wins (when Seles already was #1 and "dominated" the tour) could even the balance, don't you think?

Again:
Graf had her worst years in 91/92 in the 87/96 time frame. Even so she was 3-2 (actually 3-1, as Monica's AO win was in 93 ..... ) head-to-head against Seles.
And you think Seles would have had a better head-to-head against Steffi in 93/96 than in 91/92 nevertheless??????
:confused: :confused: :confused:

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 08:30 PM
"Again:
Graf had her worst years in 91/92 in the 87/96 time frame. Even so she was 3-2 (actually 3-1, as Monica's AO win was in 93 ..... ) head-to-head against Seles.
And you think Seles would have had a better head-to-head against Steffi in 93/96 than in 91/92 nevertheless??????"

Well, I think the discussion is moot, but I will answer this one.

1. If you want to distinguish '91-'92 from '93, that's great, and I'll point to the '93 AO as evidence that Seles would rise to the event in GS's when facing Graf even when Graf upped her game.

2. Again, there's simply no comparison between Seles in smaller events (and Wimbledon) vs. Seles in other majors and the Virginia Slims. Thus, I'm not sure that Graf's 3 wins tell us much about the future except for that Graf would likely still beat Seles 1993-on when they played on grass.

3. As for your last point, here's my point -- Virginia Slims '90-AO '93, there were 10 'major' tournaments. Seles won 8 of them, and Graf won her 2 Wimbledon titles. So, Seles played better at 8 of these tournaments while Graf played better at 2. In the next 10, do I think that Seles would have played better at 8 out of the next 10? I don't know, but there's certainly a shot, especially when you factor in Graf's '94 season after the AO (assuming Seles herself didn't get injured). And looking at those next 10, Graf didn't win or didn't play in the last 5 of those. So, I think Seles had a very good chance to keep her edge over Graf in the next 10 'big' tournaments, whether it would have been 8-2, 7-3, or 6-4.

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 08:41 PM
At the time Usopen 88 was being played Gaby was number 5... in fact 5th seeded too at the Usopen. Did she got better? lets see. She reached 2 more slam finals winning one of them. She got better. She declined her level after Rome 1992 ok i agree.


Wrong.
Sabatini overtook Shriver in the week before USO and was #4 in WTA rankings at start of USO.
Nevertheless Shriver was seeded #4 and Sabby only # 5 as seeds are regularily fixed some days earlier.

Sabby reached one slam final in 87/89 but 2 in 90/92. Why?
She lost 4 slam semis against Graf in 87/89 but never played her in slams semis in 90/92.
BTW, Sabby reached Olympic tennis final in 88. She lost. Against - Graf .....
Gaby won no slam in 87/89 but one in 90/92. Why?
Graf was worse in her 90/91 USO/Wim slam finals compared to USO 88.

Sabatini won 1 VSC in 87/89 but none in 90/92.

Sabatini has a slightly better win/loss record in 90/92 than in 87/89.
But if you exclude all Steffi matches - then we get a clearly WORSE win/loss record for Gaby in 90/92 compared to 87/89. So mybe Sabby's slightly better success in 90/92 has a little bit to do with Steffi, don't you think?


:wavey:

irma
Aug 17th, 2004, 08:47 PM
She lost 4 slam semis against Graf in 87/89 but never played her in slams semis in 90/92.



:wavey:
I am sorry that you obvious missed a great day in steffi fan history :lol:

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 08:48 PM
Calimero377, you raise some good points, and I guess at this point, we're both going to have to end up agreeing to disagree. It's just too bad that things didn't work out so that we could have seen what would have happened post '93 AO.


Buscemi, although you are obviously a Seles fan and not an objective tennis analyst like me, you have raised some ... erm, interesting points yourself.
If all Selesians were a little bit more thoughtful - as you are - those debate would be less vicious.
But, hey, I like vicious debates!
;-)

Yes, tennis - and Steffi! - lost a lot with Monica's absence in 93/95. It could have become the greatest tennis rivalry of all time (comparable only to Evert/Navi). It was not meant to be .....
:sad:

It is even more sad to watch Seles fading out in those months. I would have wished her a fairy tale ending as Steffi had in 1999.

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 08:55 PM
"Yes, tennis - and Steffi! - lost a lot with Monica's absence in 93/95. It could have become the greatest tennis rivalry of all time (comparable only to Evert/Navi). It was not meant to be ....."

And here's why I think it is really horrible (besides the obvious tragedy):

GS titles:

Graf -- 22
Navratilova -- 18
Evert -- 18
Seles 18

Let's assume that the Graf fans are right, that Graf was slumping, and that Graf would have re-claimed her throne, with Seles as #2. Maybe Graf wins 2 less GS's, and ends up with 20. Graf re-buffs a great challenge and becomes the best ever.

Let's assume that the Seles fans are right, and Seles would have continued rolling. Seles gets to 20 titles, takes out maybe the 2nd best player ever in her prime and becomes the best evre.

Or, let's assume that both sides are a bit off. Each ends up with 18 GS's. An endless debate goes on over who is the best ever, with Margaret Court being in the discussion as well.

Instead, we're left with a situation where it's really tough to compare the 2 sets of players.

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 08:58 PM
"Again:
Graf had her worst years in 91/92 in the 87/96 time frame. Even so she was 3-2 (actually 3-1, as Monica's AO win was in 93 ..... ) head-to-head against Seles.
And you think Seles would have had a better head-to-head against Steffi in 93/96 than in 91/92 nevertheless??????"

Well, I think the discussion is moot, but I will answer this one.

1. If you want to distinguish '91-'92 from '93, that's great, and I'll point to the '93 AO as evidence that Seles would rise to the event in GS's when facing Graf even when Graf upped her game.

2. Again, there's simply no comparison between Seles in smaller events (and Wimbledon) vs. Seles in other majors and the Virginia Slims. Thus, I'm not sure that Graf's 3 wins tell us much about the future except for that Graf would likely still beat Seles 1993-on when they played on grass.

3. As for your last point, here's my point -- Virginia Slims '90-AO '93, there were 10 'major' tournaments. Seles won 8 of them, and Graf won her 2 Wimbledon titles. So, Seles played better at 8 of these tournaments while Graf played better at 2. In the next 10, do I think that Seles would have played better at 8 out of the next 10? I don't know, but there's certainly a shot, especially when you factor in Graf's '94 season after the AO (assuming Seles herself didn't get injured). And looking at those next 10, Graf didn't win or didn't play in the last 5 of those. So, I think Seles had a very good chance to keep her edge over Graf in the next 10 'big' tournaments, whether it would have been 8-2, 7-3, or 6-4.

VSC doesn't interest me at all.

If Wimbledon is 10 points, USO & FO 7 points, AO 5 points, then VSC is about 3 points. Same as German Open for me (OK, maybe I'm not objective in that one ... ).
Steffi didn't reach 90-92 VSC finals. When she made those finals she usually won them. She won both of her indoor matches against Seles (89 & 98).
In the 87-96 time frame (Graf #1 or #2) she lost 5 times before finals at VSC (or "Chase Champs"). In 88 she had severe flu & fever, in 94 she came back only for VSC as her only tournament between USO 94 and Paris-Bercy 95 (back injuries).
So her only legit losses at VSC happened in 90, 91, 92? Why?
Because she was -you will guess it ... - in a slump!


:wavey:

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 08:59 PM
I am sorry that you obvious missed a great day in steffi fan history :lol:

Sorry, yes, 6-3, 6-3 ....
:kiss:

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 09:01 PM
Here's another thing we can agree on:

Graf and Seles are the only female players to ever win 5 setters (I think):

At the Virginia Slims:

1990 Monica Seles (USA) def. Gabriela Sabatini (ARG) 6-4 5-7 3-6 6-4 6-2

1995 Steffi Graf (GER) def. Anke Huber (GER) 6-1 2-6 6-1 4-6 6-3

1996 Steffi Graf (GER) def. Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-3 4-6 6-0 4-6 6-0

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 09:08 PM
"Yes, tennis - and Steffi! - lost a lot with Monica's absence in 93/95. It could have become the greatest tennis rivalry of all time (comparable only to Evert/Navi). It was not meant to be ....."

And here's why I think it is really horrible (besides the obvious tragedy):

GS titles:

Graf -- 22
Navratilova -- 18
Evert -- 18
Seles 18

Let's assume that the Graf fans are right, that Graf was slumping, and that Graf would have re-claimed her throne, with Seles as #2. Maybe Graf wins 2 less GS's, and ends up with 20. Graf re-buffs a great challenge and becomes the best ever.

Let's assume that the Seles fans are right, and Seles would have continued rolling. Seles gets to 20 titles, takes out maybe the 2nd best player ever in her prime and becomes the best evre.

Or, let's assume that both sides are a bit off. Each ends up with 18 GS's. An endless debate goes on over who is the best ever, with Margaret Court being in the discussion as well.

Instead, we're left with a situation where it's really tough to compare the 2 sets of players.

Buscemi, even your "middle ground" is completely retarded.
You COULD have a point IF Seles had not returned in 95. But she did. And she didn't win a lot. For many, many years.
But Graf reached finals and finals and finals. And won them.
And when Steffi was sidelined (as Seles was in 93/95) oder retired Seles still didn't win anything. Seles was stabbed as a 19-year-old, returned as a 21-year-old, won her last slam with just 22 (AO; Graf injured & out) and didn't win anything with 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30.
Oh, The Stabbing, yes ....
That's were all discussions end. The Stabbing. Explanation and excuse for everything. Comparably only to Jesus Christ nailed on a cross. The Stabbing.
Corner stone of a religion. Eerie .....


:sad:

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 09:10 PM
Here's another thing we can agree on:

Graf and Seles are the only female players to ever win 5 setters (I think):

At the Virginia Slims:

1990 Monica Seles (USA) def. Gabriela Sabatini (ARG) 6-4 5-7 3-6 6-4 6-2

1995 Steffi Graf (GER) def. Anke Huber (GER) 6-1 2-6 6-1 4-6 6-3

1996 Steffi Graf (GER) def. Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-3 4-6 6-0 4-6 6-0


No. :lol:

I've read that they played some best-of-5 about 100 years ago!

spencercarlos
Aug 17th, 2004, 09:10 PM
Wrong.
Sabatini overtook Shriver in the week before USO and was #4 in WTA rankings at start of USO.
Nevertheless Shriver was seeded #4 and Sabby only # 5 as seeds are regularily fixed some days earlier.

Sabby reached one slam final in 87/89 but 2 in 90/92. Why?
She lost 4 slam semis against Graf in 87/89 but never played her in slams semis in 90/92.
BTW, Sabby reached Olympic tennis final in 88. She lost. Against - Graf .....
Gaby won no slam in 87/89 but one in 90/92. Why?
Graf was worse in her 90/91 USO/Wim slam finals compared to USO 88.

Sabatini won 1 VSC in 87/89 but none in 90/92.

Sabatini has a slightly better win/loss record in 90/92 than in 87/89.
But if you exclude all Steffi matches - then we get a clearly WORSE win/loss record for Gaby in 90/92 compared to 87/89. So mybe Sabby's slightly better success in 90/92 has a little bit to do with Steffi, don't you think?


:wavey:
So lets thanks Graf then for giving Gaby a better winning % during 90-92 and winning those juicy ranking points for beating 1 or 2nd ranked player :rolleyes:....
Graf also was the cause for Gabyīs NON Grand Slam sucess in 87/89 because Steffi was beating her, and her better GS performances during 90/92 were cause of Steffi, because she was not playing her as often. But then we have to thank Steffi because she let Gaby win most of the NON-Grand Slam matches during 90/92. :rolleyes:
This is pathetic shit analisis.
Thanks Steffi to for losing early at the Chase 88 and 94, otherwise Gaby would have lost :rolleyes:

Kart
Aug 17th, 2004, 09:11 PM
Yes, better offensive than defensive!

:lol:
I don't know.

I'm a big fan of fan bases getting along but it can never happen when everyone is on the attack.

spencercarlos
Aug 17th, 2004, 09:22 PM
Wrong.
Sabatini overtook Shriver in the week before USO and was #4 in WTA rankings at start of USO.
Nevertheless Shriver was seeded #4 and Sabby only # 5 as seeds are regularily fixed some days earlier.

Sabby reached one slam final in 87/89 but 2 in 90/92. Why?
She lost 4 slam semis against Graf in 87/89 but never played her in slams semis in 90/92.
BTW, Sabby reached Olympic tennis final in 88. She lost. Against - Graf .....
Gaby won no slam in 87/89 but one in 90/92. Why?
Graf was worse in her 90/91 USO/Wim slam finals compared to USO 88.

Sabatini won 1 VSC in 87/89 but none in 90/92.

Sabatini has a slightly better win/loss record in 90/92 than in 87/89.
But if you exclude all Steffi matches - then we get a clearly WORSE win/loss record for Gaby in 90/92 compared to 87/89. So mybe Sabby's slightly better success in 90/92 has a little bit to do with Steffi, don't you think?


:wavey:
Also forgot to add that since August 90 to May 92 Gaby won 1 GS, 1 GS RU, 10 other titles incluiding 2 Rome, 2 Family Circle Cups, 2 Tokio Pan Pacific, thatīs 6 Tier I events in a span of two years from 91/92, beating Arantxa, Seles on clay, Graf everywhere (except Grass) and Martina N on Indoors. I donīt think there is too much search or analisis you can do to realize Gaby got tons better during 90/92 than any other years.

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 09:23 PM
"Buscemi, even your "middle ground" is completely retarded.
You COULD have a point IF Seles had not returned in 95. But she did. And she didn't win a lot. For many, many years.
But Graf reached finals and finals and finals. And won them.
And when Steffi was sidelined (as Seles was in 93/95) oder retired Seles still didn't win anything. Seles was stabbed as a 19-year-old, returned as a 21-year-old, won her last slam with just 22 (AO; Graf injured & out) and didn't win anything with 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30.
Oh, The Stabbing, yes ....
That's were all discussions end. The Stabbing. Explanation and excuse for everything. Comparably only to Jesus Christ nailed on a cross. The Stabbing.
Corner stone of a religion. Eerie ....."

Hmmm...even if you diminish the stabbing (which I don't think is valid), you still have Seles missing 3 GS's in '93, 4 in '94, and 3 in '95. And even assuming that the stabbing didn't have the longest lasting effects, I think you can still assume that Seles would have been a better player at the '95 U.S. Open and in '96 if she weren't stabbed. So, that's 15 Slams. Could Seles have won 10 of these?

I'll give Graf the '93, '95, and '96 Wimbledons. That leaves 12. Graf did not win or play in 5 of these 12, with these going to Navratilova, ASV, ASV, Pierce, and Seles. I think Seles would have a great shot at all 5 of these, with Wimbledon '94 being the toughest (but Monica had beaten Martina at Wimbledon).

That leaves the 7 other Slams that Graf won: 1 AO, 3 FO, and 3 U.S. Opens. I don't think it's beyond reason to think that Seles wins the AO, the 3 FOs, and 1/3 of the U.S. Opens, as an example.

And that would leave Graf with 17 after her FO win in '99 and Seles with 18. So, I think it's doable, even if you presume that the stabbing didn't hurt Seles' career for THAT long.

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 09:47 PM
Also forgot to add that since August 90 to May 92 Gaby won 1 GS, 1 GS RU, 10 other titles incluiding 2 Rome, 2 Family Circle Cups, 2 Tokio Pan Pacific, thatīs 6 Tier I events in a span of two years from 91/92, beating Arantxa, Seles on clay, Graf everywhere (except Grass) and Martina N on Indoors. I donīt think there is too much search or analisis you can do to realize Gaby got tons better during 90/92 than any other years.


Sabby had a 182-43 win/loss record in 87/89 (80,9 % win ratio).
In 90/92 she was 166-37 (81,8 %).
No great difference, IMO.

Sabby often played the same tournaments as Graf. Therefore they met 30 times in 87-92. In 87-89 Graf was ahead 15-3. In 90-92 Sabby with 8-4.
No wonder, as Graf was slumping big time in 90/92.
If we exclude Sabby's Graf matches we get a 179-28 win/loss record for Sabby in 87/89 (86,5 %) but only 158-33 in 90/92 (82,7 %).


Slightly better in 90/92 overall, but clearly worse if we exclude Graf matches.
Tells us a lot .....

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 09:47 PM
Here's another thing I would like to point out about Seles --

-AO '91-AO '93, Seles wins 7/9 GS's (all but Wimbledon)
-stabbing
-U.S. Open '95 -- F
-AO '96 -- W
-the week before the French Open, she gets injured and has to w/draw from a tournament in Madrid. She then loses at the FO and Wimbledon at much less than 100%
-U.S. Open '96 -- F
-in the WTA Tour Championships, she gets injured in a match against Kimiko Date
-she misses the AO '97 b/c of injury
-FO '97 loses a very tight SF with Hingis
-Wimbledon '97 loses in round 3
-she gets injured the week before the U.S. Open
-she loses to Spirlea in the QF at much less than 100%
-she misses the '98 AO b/c of the injury

Before the stabbing, Seles is never injured in her career. Many attribute Seles' constant injuries since the stabbing to her general detrioration of condition during her time off while recovering from the stabbing. Now, would Seles have been injury-free if she weren't stabbed? Who knows. Would Seles have been more likely to stay healthy if she weren't out for 2.5 years with a stab wound, depression, and PTSD? Yes.

Bamafan717
Aug 17th, 2004, 09:50 PM
I believe the foot is very far away from the shoulder on the human body

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 09:53 PM
"I believe the foot is very far away from the shoulder on the human body."

True, but stabbing leads to weight gain, leads to extra pressure on the foot, leads to greater likelihood of foot injury.

Now, you can argue that Seles should have gotten in better shape, but if she didn't miss the time from the stabbing, and if she weren't depressed, it's unlikely she would have put on a similar amount of weight.

Bamafan717
Aug 17th, 2004, 09:58 PM
If you were such a big Seles fan, you would know that she was back on the court practicing soon after her healing from stitches and all that. She had been recovering athleticly but not mentally. I don't see how your mind can hurt your body.

Bamafan717
Aug 17th, 2004, 09:59 PM
Buscemi, if you want to quote click the "quote" button at the bottom of each post.

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 10:03 PM
"Buscemi, even your "middle ground" is completely retarded.
You COULD have a point IF Seles had not returned in 95. But she did. And she didn't win a lot. For many, many years.
But Graf reached finals and finals and finals. And won them.
And when Steffi was sidelined (as Seles was in 93/95) oder retired Seles still didn't win anything. Seles was stabbed as a 19-year-old, returned as a 21-year-old, won her last slam with just 22 (AO; Graf injured & out) and didn't win anything with 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30.
Oh, The Stabbing, yes ....
That's were all discussions end. The Stabbing. Explanation and excuse for everything. Comparably only to Jesus Christ nailed on a cross. The Stabbing.
Corner stone of a religion. Eerie ....."

Hmmm...even if you diminish the stabbing (which I don't think is valid), you still have Seles missing 3 GS's in '93, 4 in '94, and 3 in '95. And even assuming that the stabbing didn't have the longest lasting effects, I think you can still assume that Seles would have been a better player at the '95 U.S. Open and in '96 if she weren't stabbed. So, that's 15 Slams. Could Seles have won 10 of these?

I'll give Graf the '93, '95, and '96 Wimbledons. That leaves 12. Graf did not win or play in 5 of these 12, with these going to Navratilova, ASV, ASV, Pierce, and Seles. I think Seles would have a great shot at all 5 of these, with Wimbledon '94 being the toughest (but Monica had beaten Martina at Wimbledon).

That leaves the 7 other Slams that Graf won: 1 AO, 3 FO, and 3 U.S. Opens. I don't think it's beyond reason to think that Seles wins the AO, the 3 FOs, and 1/3 of the U.S. Opens, as an example.

And that would leave Graf with 17 after her FO win in '99 and Seles with 18. So, I think it's doable, even if you presume that the stabbing didn't hurt Seles' career for THAT long.


Retarded .....

Seles winner of FO in 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96.
Seles winner of AO in 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96.
Seles winning a Grand Slam in 94.
"Doable", yeah .....

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
:sad:

Bamafan717
Aug 17th, 2004, 10:06 PM
See what I am saying everyone???
Monica fans say that she wouldv'e won that tournament, but she didn't so you can't count it!

Steffi is kicking ass. Has anyone else noticed?

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 10:06 PM
If you were such a big Seles fan, you would know that she was back on the court practicing soon after her healing from stitches and all that. She had been recovering athleticly but not mentally. I don't see how your mind can hurt your body.

Easy...it's unlikely that somebody with PTSD and depression is likely to stay in good shape.

Bamafan717
Aug 17th, 2004, 10:08 PM
If your gonna be the greatest player ever you have to stay in good shape and keep your mind straight

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 10:10 PM
Ok, here is the 2nd Semi, the differential for the 1st semi made it obvious Nav will win, plus, i want this one started so i'll be around when it finishes. Ok, so we're on to the classic matchup of Monica and Steffi. Remember, we're trying to use the most critical match they played in their H2H to gauge, or we can also use general H2H, or we can use some other ideas, but who would win this matchup is the critical point. Here is the progression of the draw:
Graf def. BYE
Davenport def. Austin
Seles def. Clijsters
Hingis def. V. Williams
Evert def. BYE
S. Williams def. Sanchez-Vicario
Henin-Hardenne def. Capriati
Navratilova def. BYE
leading to:
Graf def. Davenport
Seles def. Hingis
Evert def. S. Williams
Navratilova def. Henin-Hardenne
to now:
Graf vs. Seles
Navratilova def. Evert

Ok, Steffi leads H2H 10-5. Go on that. Enjoy!


So Steffi wins.
But only with 99-71 votes. Shockingly close!
But hey, it's a U.S.-dominated forum after all ......

I don't think that gives Steffi any chances in the final against Navratilova.


:sad:

Bamafan717
Aug 17th, 2004, 10:13 PM
i am voting steffi

Calimero377
Aug 17th, 2004, 10:13 PM
If your gonna be the greatest player ever you have to stay in good shape and keep your mind straight


I know that I will get flak for this, but anyway:

Miss Steffi Graf would have played again within 3 months after she had been (hypothetically) stabbed.
Tough cookie that she is .......

:worship:

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 10:20 PM
Retarded .....

Seles winner of FO in 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96.
Seles winner of AO in 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96.
Seles winning a Grand Slam in 94.
"Doable", yeah .....

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
:sad:

-Well, Seles DID win the FO in '90-'92, and: a) Graf didn't look too great at the FO in '93 in the finals against Seles, b) ASV won in '94, and Seles never had much trouble beating her. How about this -- I'll say that Graf wins in '95 and Seles wins in '96.

-Well, Seles DID win the AO in '91-'93 AND '96. Seles never had much trouble against Pierce until late in '98, so I'll give Seles the '95 title. And Graf DID look good at the AO in '94, so I'll put that one at 50/50.

-Why is Seles winning a Grand Slam in '94 so laughable. Graf in the AO is clearly her toughest match-up. ASV at the FO would be pretty easy for her I think (20-3). Navratilova was worse in '94 than she was in '92 at Wimbledon when Monica beat her, and do you really think that Conchita could have beaten Monica (and she might have only faced Martinez)? And then, it would have been good old ASV in the U.S. Open again. I don't see why this is unlikely.

Okay, so giving you this, it is now Graf 18 and Seles 17, or Graf 19 and Seles 16. Even discounting anything after '96, it's still pretty close.

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 10:22 PM
"I know that I will get flak for this, but anyway:

Miss Steffi Graf would have played again within 3 months after she had been (hypothetically) stabbed.
Tough cookie that she is ......."

So, the same Graf that according to you crumbled in the early '90s after legal troubles (and didn't you say almost retired), would have been ready to play 3 months after being stabbed? I doubt it.

Bamafan717
Aug 17th, 2004, 10:25 PM
DUDE it isn't 18-17. it is 22-9. Monica fans: Accept reality!!!!!

buscemi
Aug 17th, 2004, 10:33 PM
Navratilova-Graf will be TOUGH, and I'm not sure which way I will vote. The way I see it, any of these 7 could qualify as the 'critical' match:

1987-05-25 Roland Garros Clay F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-4 4-6 8-6
1987-06-22 Wimbledon Grass F Martina Navratilova (USA) 7-5 6-3
1987-08-31 U.S. Open Hardcourt F Martina Navratilova (USA) 7-6 6-1
1988-06-22 Wimbledon Grass F Steffi Graf (GER) 5-7 6-2 6-1
1989-06-26 Wimbledon Grass F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-2 6-7 6-1
1989-08-28 U.S. Open Hardcourt F Steffi Graf (GER) 3-6 7-5 6-1
1991-08-26 U.S. Open Hardcourt SF Martina Navratilova (USA) 7-6 6-7 6-4

spencercarlos
Aug 17th, 2004, 10:55 PM
Navratilova-Graf will be TOUGH, and I'm not sure which way I will vote. The way I see it, any of these 7 could qualify as the 'critical' match:

1987-05-25 Roland Garros Clay F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-4 4-6 8-6
1987-06-22 Wimbledon Grass F Martina Navratilova (USA) 7-5 6-3
1987-08-31 U.S. Open Hardcourt F Martina Navratilova (USA) 7-6 6-1
1988-06-22 Wimbledon Grass F Steffi Graf (GER) 5-7 6-2 6-1
1989-06-26 Wimbledon Grass F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-2 6-7 6-1
1989-08-28 U.S. Open Hardcourt F Steffi Graf (GER) 3-6 7-5 6-1
1991-08-26 U.S. Open Hardcourt SF Martina Navratilova (USA) 7-6 6-7 6-4
You will vote for Martina.. dont lie :p :angel: ;)

spencercarlos
Aug 17th, 2004, 10:57 PM
-Well, Seles DID win the FO in '90-'92, and: a) Graf didn't look too great at the FO in '93 in the finals against Seles, b) ASV won in '94, and Seles never had much trouble beating her. How about this -- I'll say that Graf wins in '95 and Seles wins in '96.

-Well, Seles DID win the AO in '91-'93 AND '96. Seles never had much trouble against Pierce until late in '98, so I'll give Seles the '95 title. And Graf DID look good at the AO in '94, so I'll put that one at 50/50.

-Why is Seles winning a Grand Slam in '94 so laughable. Graf in the AO is clearly her toughest match-up. ASV at the FO would be pretty easy for her I think (20-3). Navratilova was worse in '94 than she was in '92 at Wimbledon when Monica beat her, and do you really think that Conchita could have beaten Monica (and she might have only faced Martinez)? And then, it would have been good old ASV in the U.S. Open again. I don't see why this is unlikely.

Okay, so giving you this, it is now Graf 18 and Seles 17, or Graf 19 and Seles 16. Even discounting anything after '96, it's still pretty close.
Selesīs Pierce argument is not valid at all. A Premature Pierce was able to lose 7-6 6-4 in Barcelona 92, yet again against the unbeatable Monica. Pierce made her huge improvement in her game at the end of 1993, and in fact Seles lost for the first time against Mary in Rome 97.

spencercarlos
Aug 17th, 2004, 11:04 PM
Sabby had a 182-43 win/loss record in 87/89 (80,9 % win ratio).
In 90/92 she was 166-37 (81,8 %).
No great difference, IMO.

Sabby often played the same tournaments as Graf. Therefore they met 30 times in 87-92. In 87-89 Graf was ahead 15-3. In 90-92 Sabby with 8-4.
No wonder, as Graf was slumping big time in 90/92.
If we exclude Sabby's Graf matches we get a 179-28 win/loss record for Sabby in 87/89 (86,5 %) but only 158-33 in 90/92 (82,7 %).


Slightly better in 90/92 overall, but clearly worse if we exclude Graf matches.
Tells us a lot .....
Calimero your argument is not valid at all, so we should exclude Gaby matches vs Graf during 88/89 so Graf win-loss % record will decrease and exclude Gabyīs matches in 90/92 so Grafīs % record will increase so that says a lot as well how Gaby play has affected Graf. :rolleyes: The records are there, The tournament wins are there for Gaby, she won more events (6 Tier I) and was more sucessful while facing the top players that ever she could in a span of two years, you argument is simply ridiculous.

!!!--Duiz™--!!!
Aug 17th, 2004, 11:06 PM
Clearly GRaf won...

LDVTennis
Aug 18th, 2004, 01:20 AM
well i hpe the people with multiple handels are done voting

I've been away from the boards.

Good to know that Graf can win even without my vote. And, you all know how I would have voted.

By the way, Graf reached her prime in '96. Her performance in the '96 Wimbledon final is all the evidence one needs. She looked like Roger Federer out there, hitting forehand winners from all corners of the court. My best memory of that match is the backhand overhead she hits in the second set, back turned, leap upward, flick of the wrist, a winner. At full speed, the woman was poetry in motion.

Steffi showed much the same form in the '96 US Open Final. Her serve virtually neutralized Seles' return/groundstrokes. Based on Seles' play in previous rounds, it looked like Seles was the slight favorite coming in. Add to that the fact that Steffi had had an unremarkable summer campaign and that she was nursing a knee injury, and you see that there was much for Graf fans to worry about. But, the knee injury held up well just as it did at Wimbledon. Left to concentrate on her play, Graf methodically dismantled Seles on that day by moving the ball around the court and by serving really well.

LDVTennis
Aug 18th, 2004, 02:01 AM
STEFFI GRAF...

Who's probably still in better shape(after two kids), and still works out w/Andre Agassi.

Those Graf fans who are familiar with my Steffi Graf postings are already aware of the uncanny link I have with Steffi Graf and family.

Mind you I don't know her personally, though I know someone who does. And even though I don't know her personally, I can claim to have received a Christmas Card from Heidi, thanking me for all the good things I had to say about Steffi on the AOL Tennis boards.

I've already told the story of how I almost literally bumped into Steffi Graf at the 2000 IW. Here is another uncanny story which I think will prove the point DA FOREHAND was trying to make.

When Steffi retired in 1999, I suddenly had a lot of free time on my hands, particulary during the Spring and Summer. So, I spent more weekends during the summer of 2001 at the beach (Santa Monica) and traveling the world (London-Istanbul-Zurich-Rome-Hong Kong).

Just before leaving for London that summer, I had lunch with a friend in Santa Monica. We strolled around a bit after lunch. My friend had wanted to visit an antique shop in the neighborhood. So, that is where we were headed. As we were approaching the shop, my friend stopped and motioned at a couple of women leaving another antique shop on the same street. Knowing how much I admired Steffi Graf, I thought she was joking when she suggested that one of the two women looked like Steffi Graf. I looked and I looked, but I determined that the woman in question was just another one of the many beautiful, blond, svelte women that frequent Santa Monica on any given day. Plus, I asked my friend rhetorically, what would Steffi Graf be doing in Santa Monica?

Flashfoward a month later. I had just arrived at the Cavilieri Hilton (Rome). Coincidentally, that year it was the official hotel of the Italian Open. Sitting on the coffee table when I checked into the room was a copy of the magazine Gala. I took it and a bottle of water on to the balcony. Leafing through it, I almost choked when on page 6 and 7 (I still have the copy) there were paparazzi picks of Steffi (in jeans) and another friend exiting the very antique store that my friend and I were approaching that day. That woman was not only Steffi Graf, but there were pictures of what I thought I didn't quite see that day.

In the pictures, as she looked from up the street, she was quite a striking woman, long legs, thin waist, in snug-fitting jeans and a scoop-necked light blue cotton shirt.

We almost bumped into each other again at Newport earlier this summer (another story for another time). This time she was wearing a lime or canary-yellow scooped-neck shirt. She still looks as good as she did on her best days on the court.

spencercarlos
Aug 18th, 2004, 02:09 AM
I've been away from the boards.

Good to know that Graf can win even without my vote. And, you all know how I would have voted.

By the way, Graf reached her prime in '96. Her performance in the '96 Wimbledon final is all the evidence one needs. She looked like Roger Federer out there, hitting forehand winners from all corners of the court. My best memory of that match is the backhand overhead she hits in the second set, back turned, leap upward, flick of the wrist, a winner. At full speed, the woman was poetry in motion.

Steffi showed much the same form in the '96 US Open Final. Her serve virtually neutralized Seles' return/groundstrokes. Based on Seles' play in previous rounds, it looked like Seles was the slight favorite coming in. Add to that the fact that Steffi had had an unremarkable summer campaign and that she was nursing a knee injury, and you see that there was much for Graf fans to worry about. But, the knee injury held up well just as it did at Wimbledon. Left to concentrate on her play, Graf methodically dismantled Seles on that day by moving the ball around the court and by serving really well.
Well Honestly in 1996 Usopen Seles was visibly injured on her shoulder, if Seles looked as the favorite was really at the 95 Usopen, she was playing unbelievable tennis there and had the crowd behind her.
But I agree, WImbledon 96 Final was pure poetry ;)

SelesFan70
Aug 18th, 2004, 05:30 AM
This is very, very tough...but I'll pick Seles in 3 close sets. :worship:

DA FOREHAND
Aug 19th, 2004, 07:12 PM
This is very, very tough...but I'll pick Seles in 3 close sets. :worship:


How ironic that Steffi beat Monica in three close sets at the 99 French Open.

buscemi
Aug 19th, 2004, 07:46 PM
I've been away from the boards.

Good to know that Graf can win even without my vote. And, you all know how I would have voted.

By the way, Graf reached her prime in '96. Her performance in the '96 Wimbledon final is all the evidence one needs. She looked like Roger Federer out there, hitting forehand winners from all corners of the court. My best memory of that match is the backhand overhead she hits in the second set, back turned, leap upward, flick of the wrist, a winner. At full speed, the woman was poetry in motion.

Steffi showed much the same form in the '96 US Open Final. Her serve virtually neutralized Seles' return/groundstrokes. Based on Seles' play in previous rounds, it looked like Seles was the slight favorite coming in. Add to that the fact that Steffi had had an unremarkable summer campaign and that she was nursing a knee injury, and you see that there was much for Graf fans to worry about. But, the knee injury held up well just as it did at Wimbledon. Left to concentrate on her play, Graf methodically dismantled Seles on that day by moving the ball around the court and by serving really well.

Oh, so Steffi reached her prime in '96 now? And yet in her prime, she was only able to beat ASV 10-8 in the 3rd at the French, and she had a really close match against Date in the Wimbledon SF. As you say, she had an unremarkable summer campaign. Well, she also had an unremarkable spring campaign, winning her 1st 2 events of the year, but then losing to Date in Davis Cup, losing to Hingis in Rome, and slipping by Habsudova 7-5 in the 3rd in Berlin. And after the U.S. Open, she did win the Tour Championships over Hingis in 5, but lost in her other 2 events.

Look, Graf played a solid match against ASV in the Wimbledon finals and played well against an injured Seles at the U.S. Open. But she didn't really have a great year in '96.

GoDominique
Aug 19th, 2004, 07:48 PM
Steffi and Monica are both shit !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

buscemi
Aug 19th, 2004, 07:49 PM
How ironic that Steffi beat Monica in three close sets at the 99 French Open.

It's really not ironic when you consider that Seles beat Graf in three close sets at the French and AO in her prime. Trying to say that Seles was anywhere close to her prime in '99 is ridiculous. She won 1 title that year, her least in the period of 1990-2002 (not including '95).

irma
Aug 19th, 2004, 09:28 PM
Oh, so Steffi reached her prime in '96 now? And yet in her prime, she was only able to beat ASV 10-8 in the 3rd at the French, and she had a really close match against Date in the Wimbledon SF. As you say, she had an unremarkable summer campaign. Well, she also had an unremarkable spring campaign, winning her 1st 2 events of the year, but then losing to Date in Davis Cup, losing to Hingis in Rome, and slipping by Habsudova 7-5 in the 3rd in Berlin. And after the U.S. Open, she did win the Tour Championships over Hingis in 5, but lost in her other 2 events.

Look, Graf played a solid match against ASV in the Wimbledon finals and played well against an injured Seles at the U.S. Open. But she didn't really have a great year in '96.yeah if 96 was a fish, we would trow it back in the ocean :lol:

Just read about 96 and see how average it all was:

in spring 96 (spring ends on 21 june) after steffi came back from surgery. she won Indian Wells, Miami, Berlin, and Roland Garros (it doesn't matter how close it was and if she was playing her best or not. it's about what you do at the last point). She lost in Fed Cup to date and Rome and in rome to Martina

Summer 96 won wimbledon, withdraw from the olympics, lost to lindsay in la, and won the us open. (I mean 2 slams losing 1 set with an injury break in between too. How bad can you be? :lol: )

Fall 96 withdraw from the semis in Leipzig (so didn't lose), retired after the first set the final of philadelphia and then won the masters (beating habsudova, lindsay, novotna and martina h. that are 3 of the 4 players who beat her that year and habsudova was the prove how not great her year was either according to you, so I guess she at least saved her year in this tournament a least a little bit :lol: )

oh and about your last post. Steffi only won 1 tournament in 99 too and considering she won 7 titles at least 10 years in a row. we can claim 99 was just ridiculous too for Steffi's standards :lol:

Calimero377
Aug 19th, 2004, 09:57 PM
Well Honestly in 1996 Usopen Seles was visibly injured on her shoulder, if Seles looked as the favorite was really at the 95 Usopen, she was playing unbelievable tennis there and had the crowd behind her.
But I agree, WImbledon 96 Final was pure poetry ;)


Seles injured?
She lost only 18 games before final. Never was better at Flushing Meadows.
When she won USOs 91 & 92 she lost 33 & 21 games before finals.
Bad luck that Graf waited in the final 96 for her ......

:lol:

Calimero377
Aug 19th, 2004, 10:04 PM
k^\0mi]Oh, so Steffi reached her prime in '96 now? And yet in her prime, she was only able to beat ASV 10-8 in the 3rd at the French, and she had a really close match against Date in the Wimbledon SF. As you say, she had an unremarkable summer campaign. Well, she also had an unremarkable spring campaign, winning her 1st 2 events of the year, but then losing to Date in Davis Cup, losing to Hingis in Rome, and slipping by Habsudova 7-5 in the 3rd in Berlin. And after the U.S. Open, she did win the Tour Championships over Hingis in 5, but lost in her other 2 events.

Look, Graf played a solid match against ASV in the Wimbledon finals and played well against an injured Seles at the U.S. Open. But she didn't really have a great year in '96.[/QUOTE]



Yes, only winning FO, Wimbledon and USO in summer 96 was not great.
Other #1 have done it routinely ....

Let's see, who did it after WW2?

Connolly 1953.
Court 1970.
Navratilova 1984.
Graf 1988.
Graf 1993.
Graf 1995.
Graf 1996.
S. Williams 2002.

Oops .....

buscemi
Aug 19th, 2004, 10:09 PM
yeah if 96 was a fish, we would trow it back in the ocean :lol:

Just read about 96 and see how average it all was:

in spring 96 (spring ends on 21 june) after steffi came back from surgery. she won Indian Wells, Miami, Berlin, and Roland Garros (it doesn't matter how close it was and if she was playing her best or not. it's about what you do at the last point). She lost in Fed Cup to date and Rome and in rome to Martina

Summer 96 won wimbledon, withdraw from the olympics, lost to lindsay in la, and won the us open. (I mean 2 slams losing 1 set with an injury break in between too. How bad can you be? :lol: )

Fall 96 withdraw from the semis in Leipzig (so didn't lose), retired after the first set the final of philadelphia and then won the masters (beating habsudova, lindsay, novotna and martina h. that are 3 of the 4 players who beat her that year and habsudova was the prove how not great her year was either according to you, so I guess she at least saved her year in this tournament a least a little bit :lol: )

oh and about your last post. Steffi only won 1 tournament in 99 too and considering she won 7 titles at least 10 years in a row. we can claim 99 was just ridiculous too for Steffi's standards :lol:

So, Irma, let me get this straight...Are you saying that '96 was Graf's best year of tennis. If that's the case, that's great, and I would love to compare Seles in '92. I'm not saying that '96 was a bad year for Graf. It was a very good year for her and it would have been a great year for most players.

buscemi
Aug 19th, 2004, 10:13 PM
Seles injured?
She lost only 18 games before final. Never was better at Flushing Meadows.
When she won USOs 91 & 92 she lost 33 & 21 games before finals.
Bad luck that Graf waited in the final 96 for her ......

:lol:

Just like when you tried to praise Graf for losing few games when she got a w/o over Evert in the U.S. Open, Seles had a w/o in '96, leading to less games lost. Seles was playing well, but not nearly her best in '96. I remember her SF win (6-4, 6-3) over Conchita Martinez well. Seles was not close to peak form that day; she was just lucky that Conchita didn't play well. And yes, it was clear that Seles was suffering with an injury in the final against Graf.

buscemi
Aug 19th, 2004, 10:15 PM
"Yes, only winning FO, Wimbledon and USO in summer 96 was not great.
Other #1 have done it routinely ....

Let's see, who did it after WW2?

Connolly 1953.
Court 1970.
Navratilova 1984.
Graf 1988.
Graf 1993.
Graf 1995.
Graf 1996.
S. Williams 2002.

Oops ....."

Maybe I was unclear. Graf played amazing tennis in '96. All I was responding to was the theory that she played her best tennis in '96. I would rank it as only her 4th or 5th best season. Do you think it was her best season?

Calimero377
Aug 19th, 2004, 10:25 PM
"Yes, only winning FO, Wimbledon and USO in summer 96 was not great.
Other #1 have done it routinely ....

Let's see, who did it after WW2?

Connolly 1953.
Court 1970.
Navratilova 1984.
Graf 1988.
Graf 1993.
Graf 1995.
Graf 1996.
S. Williams 2002.

Oops ....."

Maybe I was unclear. Graf played amazing tennis in '96. All I was responding to was the theory that she played her best tennis in '96. I would rank it as only her 4th or 5th best season. Do you think it was her best season?


3rd best.
Best: 88 & 89.

buscemi
Aug 19th, 2004, 10:34 PM
3rd best.
Best: 88 & 89.

Okay. All I was saying was that '96 was not her best tennis, so I guess we agree. Now, which season do you think was her best, '88 or '89?

irma
Aug 19th, 2004, 10:47 PM
So, Irma, let me get this straight...Are you saying that '96 was Graf's best year of tennis. If that's the case, that's great, and I would love to compare Seles in '92. I'm not saying that '96 was a bad year for Graf. It was a very good year for her and it would have been a great year for most players.
I don't know if she played her best tennis. I think at parts she played better before but I think she was still fine. You don't win slams otherwise!

My point was just that nobody can't say Steffi's results in 96 were not great or just average. and that counts not just for Steffi, but for all the greatest players the game ever saw. when you win 3 slams then you had an amazing season. when you win the masters after it too then you just topped it even more!

If I would say oh 96 Steffi was not great and her results were just average. Then I would be an arrogant fan and everybody had the right to bash me ;) (now being arrogant about somebody else results would be dumb anyway but I am sure you get my point)